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US Probes Terrorist Concerns Over 'Missing' Malaysian Airlines Jet

Tyler Durden's picture


The dismal news overnight that a Malaysian Airlines jet, carrying over 200 passengers and crew, had "gone missing" appears to have become considerably more troublesome. News this morning of pools of oil off the Vietnam coast - suggestive of a crash - are dreadful but, as NBC News reports, perhaps more crucially, U.S. officials told NBC News on Saturday they are investigating terrorism concerns after two people listed as passengers on the missing Malaysia Airlines jet turned out not to be on the plane and had reported their passports stolen (while in Thailand).



The lastest on the "missing" plane (via The Telegraph),

Vietnam air force planes spot two oil slicks suspected to be from missing Malaysian Boeing 777 jet.


The fate of flight MH370 from Kuala Lumpur to Beijing remains unclear more than 12 hours after air traffic controllers lost touch with the plane.


However, Vietnamese authorities said they had spotted a 14-mile long oil slick 120 miles off the coast of Cape Ca Mau - the most southerly point of Vietnam's mainland. 


A Vietnamese government statement said the slicks were spotted late on Saturday off the southern tip of Vietnam and were each between six and nine miles long.

But there are growing concerns that this was a terrorist attack... (via NBC News,)

Luigi Maraldi, 37, was the only Italian on a passenger manifest released by the airline after the jet disappeared over the South China Sea.


 But his father, Walter Maraldi, told NBC News from Cesena, Italy: “Luigi called us early this morning to reassure us he was fine, but we didn’t know about the accident. Thank God he heard about it before us.”


Luigi Maraldi was on vacation in Thailand, the father said. He said that Luigi Maraldi’s passport was stolen one year ago.


The foreign ministry of Austria confirmed to NBC News that police had made contact with a citizen who was also on the passenger list, and who reported his passport stolen two years ago while traveling in Asia.

And Reuters confirms that both passports were stolen in Thailand (where there is considerable social unrest occurring currently),

"[The Austrian] embassy got the information that there was an Austrian on board. That was the passenger list from Malaysia Airlines. Our system came back with a note that this is a stolen passport," he said.

Police found the man at his home. The passport was stolen two years ago while he was travelling in Thailand, the spokesman said.

The foreign ministry in Rome said no Italian was on the plane either, despite the inclusion of Maraldi's name on the list.

Newspaper Corriere Della Sera reported that his passport was stolen in Thailand last August. The police could not confirm press reports that it had been registered as lost or stolen there, as they said the Ministry of Foreign Affairs was responsible for thefts abroad.

The Telegraph with more color:



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Sat, 03/08/2014 - 12:44 | 4525032 machineh
machineh's picture

TWA 800, bItCHeZ.

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 12:46 | 4525035 SilverIsKing
SilverIsKing's picture

Other than TWA 800 also being an airplane, how is this situation similar?

You think it was taken down and the passport issue a misdirection?

Could be I guess.

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 12:49 | 4525045 BigJim
BigJim's picture

How can our overlords 'lose' track of a flying 777, for Christ's sake?

It makes me wonder just how omniscient they really are.

PS  Sympathy for the relatives... was flying recently over Asia myself. There but for the grace of God...

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 12:54 | 4525054 ShrNfr
ShrNfr's picture

When it showed up on their radar, they had contact with it. When it suddenly stopped being on the radar, they "lost contact" with it. Pretty simple actually. Question is one of being able to salvage the black box from the bottom of that region of the ocean.

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 13:02 | 4525076 jbvtme
jbvtme's picture

another plane crash. 200 peope dead. why is this news?

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 13:07 | 4525088 Isotope
Isotope's picture

Wait, wait ,wait.
Shouldn't the NSA have known all about this before it happened?
I thought they knew about everything about everybody in the world.
Isn't that what they use that 40+ billion dollars per year to do?
Please don't tell me that it isn't working.
Because if it isn't, I guess they'll need 100 billion next year.

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 13:26 | 4525123 Beam Me Up Scotty
Beam Me Up Scotty's picture

They aren't using that data to catch terrorists. They are using it to spy on US.

Unfortunately, most sheep are terrified of terrorism, and think that giving up their privacy will make them safe. So their isn't enough political support to shut that shit down.

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 13:36 | 4525150 john39
john39's picture

so, any bets on whether big brother pins it on Assad, Putin, Iran or old reliable al-CIA-duh...

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 13:40 | 4525161 eurogold
eurogold's picture

How can there be no wreckage ?

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 13:43 | 4525170 McMolotov
McMolotov's picture

"Ancient aliens." —Giorgio A. Tsoukalos

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 13:54 | 4525208 aka Gil
aka Gil's picture

I wasn't aware that aviation fuel (lighter than gasoline) from the fuel tanks of a 777 could leave a 14-mile "oil slick".

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 14:03 | 4525223 john39
john39's picture

just wait, they'll find a couple of notorious Iranian terrorist passports miraculously floating in that oil...  undamaged.

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 18:13 | 4525787 johnQpublic
johnQpublic's picture

"Ancient aliens." —Giorgio A. Tsoukalos


thats the first thing i said to my wife in a joking immitation of that guy

love his hair

how is it possible i am not the only one thinking that

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 14:24 | 4525273 FeralSerf
FeralSerf's picture

Jet fuel (kerosene) is not lighter than gasoline.

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 15:01 | 4525366 Beam Me Up Scotty
Beam Me Up Scotty's picture

Still lighter than water however.  Were there any bankers on board or other "important" people that wouldn't suicide themselves, so they helped them?

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 15:23 | 4525407 rguptatx
rguptatx's picture

All hydrocarbon fuels are lighter than water, and will float, except marine bunker fuel (fuel oil used by ships).

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 16:54 | 4525540 chemystical
chemystical's picture

pardon a scientist and former educator for his pedantics, but the terms for which you are looking in this sense are "denser" (not "lighter") and "buoyancy" (not "floating").

and, no, that's not a small distinction.

additionally, density is not the only factor with regard to buoyancy.  Iron filings are far denser than water, yet they will float.  Why is that?  Another factor to consider is how do water bugs manage to spread their legs and then glide along the water rather than sinking?  I'll leave it to you to teach yourselves to fish on that one.

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 20:33 | 4526319 Beam Me Up Scotty
Beam Me Up Scotty's picture

True. It is also lighter. A gallon of water weighs 8.34 pounds. A gallon of jet A is 6.79 pounds.

Sun, 03/09/2014 - 06:50 | 4527176 Tall Tom
Tall Tom's picture

Density is mass per unit volume. A Gallon is a measure of Volume.


Weight is the product of mass and the acceleration of gravity.


Density is equivalent to the quotient of the Weight per unit volume and the Acceleration due to Gravity.


Because of this, and being pedantic as I am a former educator, I disagree with chemystical because the term "lighter" refers to weight and not mass.


So yes a volume of Jet A is "lighter" than an equal volume of water. That is because of the differences in the Specific Gravity. Specific Density is a ratio of the Density of an object compared to that of the Density of Water


Of course I can answer his questions about how Iron Filings float or how a Water Strider walks upon water.


But, like him, I will also leave you to research that for yourselves. It is not too intense of a study.


I understand Archimides' Principle. But there are other opposing forces to gravity acting upon a floating object.


There is a hint within this post. Find it.


(Good post chemystical)

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 17:02 | 4525564 chemystical
chemystical's picture

and, no, all hydrocarbon fuels are not by necessity "lighter" (sic) water. 

If they are compressed sufficiently to exceed 1 gm/cubic cm, then they will more dense, and they will tend to sink in water. 

why do ice cubes float in water?  They are made of water after all ;)

geez, it's not rocket science.  solid rocket fuels being a different matter - literally and figuratively :P

Mon, 03/10/2014 - 02:32 | 4527184 Tall Tom
Tall Tom's picture

Might that be due to the 117o angle between the Hydrogen Atoms  which are covalently bonded with the Oxygen which forms the hexagonal crystalline lattice structure with the associated spaces in between?

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 20:09 | 4526214 clooney_art
clooney_art's picture

Aviation fuel is kerosene based. In the distillation cycle, petrol comes first then diesel, then kerosene and Tar.

But aircraft kerosene is purified enough that it is similar to diesel. It is not lighter than gasoline (petrol).

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 14:12 | 4525240 Skateboarder
Skateboarder's picture

I prefer the term "Ancient Astronauts" myself, even if they're modern. Their ancience lends to their credibility.

Sun, 03/09/2014 - 08:16 | 4527223 FlowerofLife
FlowerofLife's picture

If a(nother) post is going to be derailed, I like this direction myself.

Love and Light.


Sat, 03/08/2014 - 14:40 | 4525319 logically possible
logically possible's picture

The wreckage is there, it is mostly at the bottom of a very large puddle.

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 16:21 | 4525490 mrdenis
mrdenis's picture

If they send down divers ,I hope they spot my gold .....

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 13:54 | 4525197 A Nanny Moose
A Nanny Moose's picture

They hate us for our freedom. Now, please return to your regularly scheduled programming.

"I guess they'll need 100 billion next year."

Government. Where epic failure is more "profitable."

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 23:17 | 4526757 Bull Bear
Bull Bear's picture

To The very best of my Knowledge when an Airplane crashes from 35000 feet into the Ocean it will leave a Debris Field, a very LARGE debris Field.....But not this crash hmmmm what another False Flag????

They also have information were the last contact was so no Problem finding it as the weather was great....

Beam me up Scotty, no intelligent life form here....

Sun, 03/09/2014 - 11:13 | 4527494 Steaming_Wookie_Doo
Steaming_Wookie_Doo's picture

All other reasonable answers aside, I'm thinking a missile. Seems any rube taking over a plane (with a bomb scenario) would make demands first or have their leadership boast if they did blow it. As for some spontaneous decompression, etc still would've had some time to raise an alarm. Wonder if the navy has any ships or subs off the coast of VN this week...

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 23:18 | 4526758 Bull Bear
Bull Bear's picture

Sorry double entry

Sun, 03/09/2014 - 12:38 | 4527690 valley chick
valley chick's picture

Interestingly no mention of the pilots names in the msm in general.also no mention of the japanese airline pilot who had talked to the co pilot of the so called missing plane. Bet you can guess the nationality of the missing pilots.

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 14:26 | 4525280 Freddie
Freddie's picture

China has backed Russia over the Ukraine.  This may be a warning and a message.  They would not take down a Chinese airliner.  If they got caught it would be an act of war. A local plane region airline flying into China with Chinese onboard might be a better choice.

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 21:28 | 4526521 SilverIsKing
SilverIsKing's picture

EMP perhaps?

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 14:58 | 4525359 magpie
magpie's picture

You mean it was not a terrorist attack but, gasp, an illuminati sacrifice ?

Sun, 03/09/2014 - 00:55 | 4526947 Tompooz
Tompooz's picture

"Other than TWA 800 also being an airplane, how is this situation similar?"

Clues to whether this was a "takedown" could be found in the passenger list.  Security camera footage would have to shed light on those passengers traveling with stolen passports, because they could/would not travel under their own names.



Sat, 03/08/2014 - 12:48 | 4525039 Mr Pink
Mr Pink's picture

I'm sure it will be blamed on some Al Quada mastermind that we have already captured or killed 5 or 6 times

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 13:02 | 4525075 Freddie
Freddie's picture

The same al Qeada terrorists that McCain, Nuland, Schumer, Obama and The State Dept with the Saudis that are being used to kill Christians in Syria?  This Al Qeada is also known as Al Seee Eye AAAh Duh?

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 17:08 | 4525591 The Gooch
The Gooch's picture

"Banker On Board"

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 13:06 | 4525085 Smegley Wanxalot
Smegley Wanxalot's picture

captured or killed ... saved or created ...

all the same to D.C.

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 13:52 | 4525198 TheInfoman
TheInfoman's picture

The U.S. State Dept's recycling program at work.

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 13:59 | 4525215 A Nanny Moose
A Nanny Moose's picture

Killed while "resisting" capture comes with a bonus burial at sea.

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 16:45 | 4525523 mt paul
mt paul's picture

que up the goat hearder

pan to afgani cave shot..

on going war on terror 

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 12:49 | 4525040 Mr Pink
Mr Pink's picture


Sat, 03/08/2014 - 12:50 | 4525047 New_Meat
New_Meat's picture

Pierre Salinger can't be reached for comment

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 13:06 | 4525087 Freddie
Freddie's picture

Did they try a Ouija board?

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 13:00 | 4525068 Millivanilli
Millivanilli's picture

Breaking News.


Propaganda outlets now admit.  


THe war is with EVERYONE.


Duct tape and plastic is our only hope.

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 13:24 | 4525124 MsCreant
MsCreant's picture

...pitchforks, ropes, torches, guillotines, gallows, AK47s, AR15s...

There is a lot of hope.

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 13:29 | 4525135 Rusty Shorts
Rusty Shorts's picture

ROPE 2016

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 13:43 | 4525171 gmrpeabody
gmrpeabody's picture


You've changed...

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 16:47 | 4525527 mt paul
mt paul's picture

hope, on a rope....

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 13:55 | 4525212 kita27
kita27's picture

It was a ghost plane, like the one that 'crashed' in Pensylvania without a trace.

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 14:24 | 4525264 BadLibertarian
BadLibertarian's picture

Sounds more similar to Flight 93, the 9/11 UA flight that crashed in Pennsyvania.

Two passengers were on board with passports stolen in Thailand. Southern Thailand and northern Malaysia have muslim separatists who have been creating havoc in Thailand for years. The flight originated in Malaysia and passed near Thailand - perfect setup for a 9/11 copycat attempt, perhaps intended to crash into a sensitive landmark in Thailand.

It's not likely that there was a mid air explosion, since the debris field on the surface would be widely spread and easy to spot. More likely, the plane hit the water intact, possibly after a struggle in the cockpit. Air France 447 hit the water like that a few years ago, and the majority of the surface debris (and bodies) were not spotted until 4-5 days after the crash.

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 14:24 | 4525275 thamnosma
thamnosma's picture

The cockpit crew has codes and probably some button to push to indicate hijacking.  They would have had plenty of time to communicate that.  Radio communiction, the transponder, and all other digital communications ended simultaenously.  No cockpit struggle.  

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 14:39 | 4525302 BadLibertarian
BadLibertarian's picture

That scenario works if the cockpit door were closed and locked. If it weren't, the flight crew could have been taken out quickly by two determined people with something sharp, and the struggle would then have been with passengers and cabin crew, al la Flight 93.

The debris field, when it is eventually located, will tell the tale.

Remember that in the EgyptAir 990 crash, the pilot was fighting against his first officer and never had time to send a distress signal. That crash, where the plane hit the water intact, also had a small initial debris field.

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 15:57 | 4525449 Taku
Taku's picture

Bad..very plausible.

This story just doesn't add up.

777 goes missing, what, a day now (?) and officially still 'missing'?!

Vietnamese Navy high command apparently reported crash. Malaysia said no. Vietnamese Air Force finds slick, Malaysia still not confirming crash.

WTF?! Now reports of stolen passports. My best guess? High-jacking. Negotiations. Failed. Crash. Or something anomalous like that.

RIP to the 239 souls.

Hope we find out soon what really happened.

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 16:29 | 4525502 BadLibertarian
BadLibertarian's picture

I think this one will be solved quickly. The water is relatively shallow in the Gulf of Thailand, and there's a P-3 Orion on the way which should make finding the wreckage and getting down to it relatively quick and easy. Since the fuel slicks were located quickly, the search box should be fairly small. The cockpit voice recorder plus any info that can be determined about where the two stolen passport passengers were sitting and who they really were, I suspect will point towards this having been a failed terrorist plot against the government of Thailand.

My guess, based on what's been reported so far is that there were two muslim separatists on board who stormed the cockpit sometime shortly after the flight reached cruising altitude and the cockpit door was opened to serve coffee or food to the pilots. The bad guys incapacitated the pilots quickly but weren't able to lock themselves in before passengers and cabin crew reacted, and like what happened with Flight 93, the passengers and crew foiled the objective of the terrorists but lost the aircraft during the fight.

That's speculation, of course, but I think it fits well with the facts as we know them thus far.

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 18:11 | 4525777 thamnosma
thamnosma's picture

I have no idea why you keep pushing Flight 93.  The world knew it was hijacked.  It is NOTHING like what happened here.

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 19:35 | 4525809 BadLibertarian
BadLibertarian's picture

The world only knew Flight 93 was hijacked because of cell phone communcations with the ground. Cell phones don't work out over the ocean. Also, given that this flight disappeared without deviating from its course, it seems likely that the fight for control was quick - so no time for anyone to know, because the only people who could have gotten out a message, the pilots, were quickly taken out of the equation.

I'm not pushing a particular theory, I'm just looking at what scenario best fits the facts as they now stand - passengers with stolen passports on board, sudden loss in communcations, concentrated fuel slicks on the surface, and no evidence of a mid air break-up or widely distributed debris field, plus a loss of contact which happened about an hour after takeoff - which is very similar to the time frame of the 9/11 hijackings.

If you have a theory that is a better match with that pattern of facts, go with it.

Update: accoding to, "Aviation sources in China report that radar suggest a steep and sudden descent of the aircraft, during which the track of the aircraft changed from 024 degrees to 333 degrees."

That's the left hand turn I was talking about in another post. A heading of 333 degrees from the point of last contact heads straight towards... wait for it... Bangkok. Actually not straight for Bangkok (that heading would be about 336 degrees), but a slightly better course (if you want to stay off radar) that arrives due south of Bangkok while staying over water and avoiding land.

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 20:16 | 4526237 PhilofOz
PhilofOz's picture

Oh so you go along with what your government told you about Flight 93? Pfffftttt!!! Say no more!

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 20:28 | 4526265 BadLibertarian
BadLibertarian's picture

Not at all. I look at what the verifable evidence points to. TWA 800 "conspiracy" theories are backed up by a large set of facts and witnesses which are thoroughly described in a documentary that's available on Netflix for anyone to consider and judge for themselves. Flight 93 conspiracy theories are not supported by anything other than crackpots on the Internet.

That said, I do happen to believe that influential people within the US government and for sure within the Saudi royal family, knew all about what was going to happen on 9/11/2001. But that doesn't mean that UA93 didn't go down just as has been reported by the families of people who talked to their loved ones who were on that plane while it was happening.

Sun, 03/09/2014 - 04:59 | 4527128 PhilofOz
PhilofOz's picture

Who mentioned TWA 800? .... and you ignore that elephant in the room re 9/11... Israel and Mossad. Convenient.

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 17:25 | 4525649 patb
patb's picture



anyone tries to get into a cockpit, the crew fights and the passengers fight.


No, more likely something failed hard, like a massive power failure or massive controls failure.


I'm sure the FDR and CVR are in the water and pinging.



Sat, 03/08/2014 - 18:12 | 4525726 BadLibertarian
BadLibertarian's picture

Why dubious? In the case that we know of where that happened (Flight 93), it crashed, didn't it? This flight also crashed, so why not for a similar reason?

The 777 and the airline both have good safety records, so I think it's wrong to say that a massive mechanical failure is "more likely" given that there were two passengers on board with stolen passports.

Think about the set-up here. It's a red eye flight, most passengers are asleep or getting there, the cabin lights are off, and the plane had just reached cruising altitude. The flight was also at a point where a 45 degree left turn leads straight up the gulf towards Thailand and puts you right over Bangkok in a little over an hour. These guys wait for the cabin door to open and rush the cockpit, causing a fight that results in a crash.

What is there in that scenario to be dubious about? 

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 19:39 | 4526091 Rakshas
Rakshas's picture

Flight 93 crashed (ahhemmmBULLSHITmmmm) in several pieces over a wide area and allegedly displayed characteristics consistent with mid flight decompression; least ways that's the official bullshit line to explain the relatively relatively small mass found at the "crash site"

Air France 447 was a bit more of a mystery for awhile but the wreckage was found in relatively large pieces.

Swissair flight 111 disintergrated into rather small metal ribbons, eyewitness account have the plane plunging nose down straight into relatively shallow water.

Egypt Air flight 990 - deeper water but debris field located

but yeah flight 93 debris field - I'm calling double double bullshit on the official bullshit  


BTW - any idea of the GPS coordinates of the search area?


Sat, 03/08/2014 - 19:57 | 4526160 BadLibertarian
BadLibertarian's picture

I always thought 93 just dug a single deep impact crater when it hit. Much like ValueJet 592 in the Everglades back in the mid-90's. There was plenty of contact between passengers and people on the ground before it went down, so I don't see much reason for conspiracy thinking on that one. TWA Flight 800, on the other hand... wowza.

The last position of MH370 was 6.92N 130.58E. I haven't seen coordinates for where the fuel slick was located, but I'd guess it would be 8-10 hours downcurrent of that position, in whichever direction the current tends to flow in the southern portion of the Gulf of Thailand.


Sat, 03/08/2014 - 12:47 | 4525038 ItsDanger
ItsDanger's picture

Malaysia isnt as strict with the passports as drugs it seems.  Get your priorities straight.

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 18:41 | 4525879 Nitrocharged
Nitrocharged's picture

I was thinking the same thing. Wouldn't an alert have been seen on screen when thesae names were entered into the airlines ticket system as having their passports reported stolen?

Crikey! Every half assed secret agent movie always seems to trigger a bright red ALERT! popup yet in the real world you can use a stolen passport without fear of getting caught? Unbelievable.

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 19:46 | 4526102 Rakshas
Rakshas's picture

Actually you don't have to steal a passport - at least not in Canada ..... the new normal is synthetic identity 

via CBC a few days ago



Sat, 03/08/2014 - 12:48 | 4525041 Truther
Truther's picture

I hate false flags. Fuck the elites.

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 12:48 | 4525042 empreinte
empreinte's picture

Only one thing is sure: BTFD on monday

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 12:49 | 4525044 Ban KKiller
Ban KKiller's picture

Any Banksters on board? 

Too rude?

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 13:09 | 4525093 Millivanilli
Millivanilli's picture

Not at all.  Finance as practiced by the banksters IS war.  Fuck em.  

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 12:50 | 4525046 apberusdisvet
apberusdisvet's picture

If it is a terrorist act, then there must have been some potential JPM whistleblowers on board

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 12:52 | 4525048 observer007
observer007's picture

News from MH370 crash


Austrian not on Malaysia plane, passport stolen -…

No Italian was on board a missing Malaysia Airlines plane, the Rome Foreign Ministry said on Saturday, despite an Italian citizen being included on the passenger list.

Latest News:!q=Malaysia+Airlines&t=text


Map / satelite image of crash site

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 13:07 | 4525081 Jlasoon
Jlasoon's picture

Almost has to be. No mayday call, just dropped off the map with no warning. 

Oil but no wreckage? Quite confusing if you ask me. 

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 13:55 | 4525210 chemystical
chemystical's picture

I don't know whether you're old enough to remember Korean Airlines 007.

If you wish to be confused, perhaps grow more cynical, and get fitted for a tin foil hat, then search *KAL 007 McDonald*.

Not enought debris for an actual crash of that size, much of it incongruous with an actual crash or MIG shootdown (as if it was planted like a Muhammed Atta magic passport and Quran), controversial Congressman aboard, multiple witnesses see Western prisoners transported to Soviet gulag, other witness much later saw Western prisoners in the gulag, etc. 

Some light reading for the weekend.

* the Congressman was ironically a cousin of Gen. Patton who's death (assassination) was likewise shrouded in conspiracy will get you started

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 14:06 | 4525228 eurogold
eurogold's picture

KAL 007 - awhile back, but thanks for bringing it back up !

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 14:18 | 4525256 Estrella
Estrella's picture

I don't know whether you're old enough to remember Korean Airlines 007.

Su-15 with an AA-2 Alamo. So they say. Yeah, I was in Korea, on alert in a revetment, heaters on my wing, wating for Bears.

I have heard the rumors you speak of. Extrodinary claims require extrodinary evidence. As of yet, very little evidence - either way. Something we are all to familiar with.

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 14:26 | 4525284 thamnosma
thamnosma's picture

Certainly a missile would explain it all.  No doubt there are other scenarios, but Korea 007 definitely was similar.

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 15:10 | 4525384 BadLibertarian
BadLibertarian's picture

A missle or a bomb only becomes a viable theory if there were already a large debris field visible on the ocean's surface. The fact that none has been reported thus far tends to confirm that there was no mid-air break up of the aircraft. Light debris falling from 30+ thousand feet spreads out over a large area before it hits the surface. So no big debris field = no explosion. Concentrated oil slicks on the surface also tend to confirm that the plane hit the water in one piece.

That leaves two other scenarios still in play - catastrophic electrical malfunction or terrorism. Given that two stolen passports were on board and the 777 has an excellent safety record, terrorism is the more likely explanation based on the information that's currently available.

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 17:28 | 4525659 patb
patb's picture

this airplane was damaged in a ground accident,  a critical failure outboard could easily cause a high speed spin

and the airplane may not recover if the pilots are inexperienced.


Sat, 03/08/2014 - 17:48 | 4525707 BadLibertarian
BadLibertarian's picture

That's a good point. It's possible that they had an airframe failure which didn't lead to a break up but made the aircraft uncontrollable. Media says the PIC had 18,000 hours and had been flying for the airline since 1981 though.

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 22:56 | 4526715 Almost Solvent
Almost Solvent's picture

Or Donnie Darko 

Sun, 03/09/2014 - 07:14 | 4527196 Tall Tom
Tall Tom's picture

A FIFTEEN MILE LONG OIL SLICK demonstartes that they were dumping fuel in a preparation for an impact.

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 12:50 | 4525049 patb
patb's picture

we need more then this, but, it should be investigated.  

I imagine they have boarding area video or gate video of the faces of the people using the 

fake passports.  Drug runners, money couriers, all these people run with 

fake passports.



Sat, 03/08/2014 - 13:47 | 4525186 thamnosma
thamnosma's picture

Exactly, the fake passport passengers may have had zero to do with the crash.  I wonder what percentage of passengers travel with stolen passports on international flights.   It's probably routine and not discussed by authorities publicly.

Also how many "stolen" passports are sold by European vagabonds needing some cash while cavorting in the third world?  Then just claiming the thing was stolen.  A good Western passport might be worth a couple grand.

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 14:07 | 4525233 eurogold
eurogold's picture

About as many as American vagabonds do ?

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 14:27 | 4525287 thamnosma
thamnosma's picture

Nah, Asia is loaded with Europeans, far more than Americans.

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 17:07 | 4525586 piliage
piliage's picture

"I wonder what percentage of passengers travel with stolen passports on international flights.   It's probably routine and not discussed by authorities publicly."

And the odds of two of them just happening to end up on the same plane that just happens to go down under very odd circumstances?

Do you know it is possible for a sugar cube that has dissolved in water to reconstitute itself randomly due to the ossilation of the atoms? However, it is so improbable to be rendered a pratical impossibility. I think we are getting into sugar cube territory with two of these guys ending up on the same plane that crashed.


Sat, 03/08/2014 - 18:14 | 4525793 thamnosma
thamnosma's picture

Just depends on the level of people with stolen passports in international Asian flights.  Could be drug runners, gold smugglers, who knows?   It's a pretty illegal world these days.  It definitely seems odd given how rarely one hears about stolen passport travelers...I'm just saying we have no idea the level of this activity.   I've seen other comment boards where posters say they have their passports stolen in Thailand and around the area.

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 12:51 | 4525051 The_Ungrateful_Yid
The_Ungrateful_Yid's picture

Sum Ting Wong Bitchez

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 12:52 | 4525053 magpie
magpie's picture

battery problems

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 13:18 | 4525110 jayman21
jayman21's picture

wrong plane

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 12:55 | 4525056 Dewey Cheatum Howe
Dewey Cheatum Howe's picture

“Luigi called us early this morning to reassure us he was fine, but we didn’t know about the accident. Thank God he heard about it before us.”


Luigi Maraldi was on vacation in Thailand, the father said. He said that Luigi Maraldi’s passport was stolen one year ago.


The foreign ministry of Austria confirmed to NBC News that police had made contact with a citizen who was also on the passenger list, and who reported his passport stolen two years ago while traveling in Asia.



Pardon my incompetence but isn't there some international database in use for just this sort of thing at international airports? If they were reported stolen don't these passports have unique identifier information in the passports themselves that would have been nullified the second the people in question had their passports reported stolen and new ones issued?

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 13:06 | 4525084 Sabibaby
Sabibaby's picture

Probably there's a database but I doubt Customs cross checks it. They probably look for a picture of the individual, look for some holgram stuff, make sure it isn't expired, look for some stamps, then stamp it themself.

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 13:38 | 4525154 ThisIsBob
ThisIsBob's picture

Interpol maintains a huge database of stolen/lost travel documents and has warned in the past that countries are not looking in.  Seems like it would be fairly simple technology to hook this stuff up to anybody's passport control.

Didn't some of the 9-11 guys get into the US on stolen passports?

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 14:00 | 4525218 chemystical
chemystical's picture

"Didn't some of the 9-11 guys get into the US on stolen passports?"

Could you be more specific please?  Which "guys"?  Mossad?  Or them Ayrabs?


Sat, 03/08/2014 - 18:16 | 4525798 thamnosma
thamnosma's picture

Absolutely.  Maybe all of them.  Who supplied them with those passports is an entirely different discussion.   Obvious intelligence agencies can provide them easily.

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 13:10 | 4525095 jerry_theking_lawler
jerry_theking_lawler's picture

Not if you have control of the 'database' and can tinker with it.....conspiracy theory....or conspiracy fact.

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 13:43 | 4525169 Fix-ItSilly
Fix-ItSilly's picture

Stolen passport?  Or sold to upgrade a vacation?

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 14:12 | 4525243 dizzyfingers
dizzyfingers's picture

Dewey Cheatum Howe

"Pardon my incompetence but isn't there some international database in use for just this sort of thing at international airports? If they were reported stolen don't these passports have unique identifier information in the passports themselves that would have been nullified the second the people in question had their passports reported stolen and new ones issued?"

Good thinking, but probably too intelligent for this world. No dis meant to anyone.

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 17:29 | 4525662 patb
patb's picture

on the way out, nobody checks, it's on the way in.



Sat, 03/08/2014 - 15:09 | 4525386 Tulpa
Tulpa's picture

You don't have to go through customs until you actually land.  To board an intl flight you just have to show the passport to the airline employees at check-in and boarding.... who are highly unlikely to have access to any Interpol database.

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 12:55 | 4525057 Boomberg
Boomberg's picture

We need a more credible source than the US to determine if it was terrorism. 

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 18:35 | 4525858 mendolover
mendolover's picture

Mr. Down Arrow needs to wake up.

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 12:56 | 4525060 kchrisc
kchrisc's picture

I don't know about others, but I won't believe a thing they say about this flight.



Sat, 03/08/2014 - 12:57 | 4525062 hunglow
hunglow's picture

No floating debris.  Now that would be amazing.

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 13:07 | 4525090 Smegley Wanxalot
Smegley Wanxalot's picture

yeah, they make airplane seats now out of sinkable foam

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 13:17 | 4525109 Jlasoon
Jlasoon's picture

I agree, this stinks.

Next we'll find out from Jay Carney that a Russian extremist terrorist drug lord supremacist from the Crimea region in the Ukraine under the direction of Putin is responsible for the David Copperfield style disappearing act of flight MH370. 

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 13:37 | 4525152 logicalman
logicalman's picture

Haven't Al Qaeda shown up in Ukraine yet?

Hmm, strange. They always seem to show up in places the US is de-stabilizing.

I guess not enough brown people there to hide amongst.

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 17:08 | 4525589 Berspankme
Berspankme's picture

Crimean Separatists

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 19:34 | 4526079 kchrisc
kchrisc's picture

It was the Tsarnaev brothers again with that lady "witness" to confirm.

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 13:00 | 4525067 stant
stant's picture

As in flight 800. Who was on the plane

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 13:03 | 4525079 New_Meat
New_Meat's picture

Pierre Salinger ;-)

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 13:36 | 4525149 FeralSerf
FeralSerf's picture

Who was on TWA 800 that someone in authority wanted dead?

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 14:43 | 4525232 Brindle702
Brindle702's picture

This is a list of passengers on TWA 800 with brief comments as to who they were and their occupations (if any)

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 14:24 | 4525259 chemystical
chemystical's picture

"Who was on TWA 800 that someone in authority wanted dead?"

Who was on Egypt Air 990?

5. One day before the tragedy, the American authorities provided hotel accommodation in a 3-star hotel for the airplane crew, which constitutes a violation of the simplest norms of international aviation, where the crew is accommodated in the airport hotel or in a 5-star hotel.
6. On the same day, a crew of pilots and flight attendants of Israel,s airline (El Al) checked in the same hotel with a general from the Israeli Intelligence (Mossad) who was in charge of the crew,s luggage and personal belongings.
7. Just a few hours prior to the incident, one of the Egypt Air flight crew complained to the hotel security that someone had sneaked into his room, because he noticed signs of an attempt to open his suitcase by breaking the locks. But the hotel security assured him of no foul play as long as nothing was missing.
8. The day of the incident, Edward McLoughlin, an American Jew, who is a vice president of an American civil agency was one of the passengers of Egypt flight form Los Angeles to New York City in route to Cairo. But when the plane landed in New York City, Mcglauglen refused to continue his journey to his final destination (Cairo) for fear of possible "planting of a bomb by "one of the passengers at its first stop (New York City).
9. On the day of the incident, the American authorities opted to take the flight crew,s luggage from the hotel through the halls to the plane itself. Meanwhile the Mossad general opted to take the luggage of the crew of El Al flight to the Israeli plane himself. But the luggage of the crews of both Egypt Air and El-Al ended up being taken from the hotel to the airport in the same car that took the Mossad general to the Israeli plane.
10. Prior to the Egypt Air flight departure, the American authorities inspected the plane for 3 hours, which is a very unusually long time in aviation norms. Also it has been reported that airport security had not given similar attention to any other plane that day.
11. 40 minutes after the flight,s departurecontact with the plane was lost over the Edward American naval base, which is known to have anti-aircraft missiles, some of which are ready to be launched automatically by the mere sensing of an object passing over at a certain elevation.
12. After the incident,3 eye witnesses testified to the investigators that they saw the plane on fire as it was falling down. Fox News also has confirmed in its own investigation of the incident that the pane had exploded in mid air before its fall according to what was seen on the radar screens.
13. The American investigation team reported that the plane fell from 33,000 feet to 19,000 feet in 40 seconds, which, according to aviation experts, "is a speed equal to a free fall due to earth gravity,which makes it evident that the plane has fallen down in pieces and not as one body. Because the body of the plane is designed in a way that makes it impossible for the body of the plane to descend at a speed in access of 7,000 feet per second. Aviation experts also add that "even if the engines of the plane stopped working, it would still have been possible to land the plane at the nearest airport.
14. 10 hours after the incident, a member of the American investigation team announced that they had found the "black box that records the secrets of the events in the "last moments just before the plane,s fall. However, the next day, the American official spokesman denied finding the "box and said that the investigation team was still searching for it!

Sometimes accidents just happen, and sometimes they just "happen".

Just sayin' ;)


Sat, 03/08/2014 - 13:00 | 4525069 autofixer
autofixer's picture


Sat, 03/08/2014 - 13:39 | 4525159 Joe A
Joe A's picture

Bless you. Want a hanky? ;-)

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 17:47 | 4525704 patb
patb's picture

It's the Ukranians.

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 13:00 | 4525070 GrinandBearit
GrinandBearit's picture

Gotta keep that terrorist boogeyman alive!

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 13:01 | 4525071 Jack Burton
Jack Burton's picture

I have never figured what a terrorist gains from downing airliners. Hell, the TWA flight that they blew up over Scotland many years ago was a flight I had taken from London Heathrow to NYC more than once that very year. Killing me gains them nothing, I just don't get it. Mumbai shootings were the type of on the ground attacks that I imagined terrorists would adopt, but they are rare still. It seems to me to just be killing for killings sake. Or does terror benefit the nation attacked? We all saw what 9/11 did to the US Constitution, the rise of the spy state and expanding empire to new nations.

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 13:10 | 4525091 layman_please
layman_please's picture

I have never figured what a terrorist gains from downing airliners. "

i'm afraid you are confusing terrorists with somebody else. you actually pointed to the possible culprits with your 9/11 note 

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 13:36 | 4525151 andrewp111
andrewp111's picture

Terrorists have always been attracted to planes. Striking a plane is a cheap way to inflict huge costs on an enemy society, and Islamic terrorists especially gain a lot if they down enough planes to kill off tourism completely.

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 13:42 | 4525168 Bioscale
Bioscale's picture

"Islamic terrorists" - you mean mercenaries paid by US government managed by CIA?

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 13:40 | 4525160 FeralSerf
FeralSerf's picture

That (PA103) was a Pan Am flight. Terrorists were blamed, but it appears likely that there was someone on that plane that CIA/MI5/Mossad wanted dead.

Terrorists are often of the official spook variety. That's why patsies were invented.

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 13:41 | 4525164 kchrisc
kchrisc's picture

Going through the record, I find that militants do not generally take down airliners, governments do.

And to the degree that militants do, or at least hijack them, it is usually blowback from government criminals acts affecting the militants in some way.

Or put another way: if one wanted to really "terrorize" a populace, would you blow up an airliner or several random shopping centers?


"Is that a bomb in your underwear or are you with the CIA?"

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 13:45 | 4525175 David Wooten
David Wooten's picture

"I have never figured what a terrorist gains from downing airliners."

They are not doing it for personal gain.  They are sacrificing themselves - and everyone else - for a 'noble cause'.

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 14:02 | 4525214 FeralSerf
FeralSerf's picture

Shopping centers or airport terminals would be a more visible target if the terrorists were going to sacrifice themselves for a so-called 'noble cause'.  An airliner terrorist attack would normally kill people that aren't of interest to the terrorist (why kill Swiss, Arabs and Russians when it's Jews that the terrorist hates?).

Aircraft disasters have always been a favorite method of eliminating a political enemy or a "problem individual" like a whistleblower.

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 19:27 | 4526054 kchrisc
kchrisc's picture

 Agreed. However, over the years it has come out that most, if not all, airport terminal shootings and bombings in the 70s and 80s were actually false-flag ops by the DC US. They were trying to FUD Europe into continued support of the DC US and NATO with the continued flow of $$$ to MIC.


"If you could make this shit up, they'd have you committed in the loony bin."

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 13:49 | 4525180 Joe A
Joe A's picture

Was a PanAm flight but that doesn't matter. Recently a new theory was posed that it had something to do with Uraniam mining from Namibia and someone from the UN overseeing Namibia's independence was on board on route to NY to report.

True or just another theory? But, the passengerlist should always be checked for persons of interest.

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 13:59 | 4525217 general ambivalent
general ambivalent's picture

You may not want to hear what I think because it's a terrible view of the world, but I'll say it anyways. In terms of altruistic genes (what the selfish gene really is) one is still altruistic if they sacrifice themselves while taking others out, as this allows their closely related genes to live. This is a severely reduced way of looking at it, but it may help as we see that many of the methods developed to fight against superpowers have to do with sacrifice. Cause an infection or contagion in the other to bring them down, because the enemy is much bigger and a different weapon is needed. So I think it's a mentality that 'we will not live but some of our family may'. It's like a queen bee, the workers will sacrifice themselves for the queen.

The severe problem is that this sacrifice to cause internal death in the enemy completely alters the group so it doesn't seem possible they could ever return to the past, if they were ever peaceful to begin with. And also, the introduction of the tactic may cause its use against one's own group. For instance, it's hard to even say who starter terra' wars, but we know now that the US themselves use the modern form as a tactic. So any group that uses the tactic may succumb to it themselves.

That's just speculation, it may not have a lot to do with killing any specific targets but causing internal contagion and pathological fear. I am personally much more worried about airplanes and large events than I was before. And that may be just it, a combined threat of airplane highjackings, knife attacks, shootings, etc. can cause mass fear in the normal population, along with economic damage and militarisation which further deteriorate the enemy society.

And there is also a marxist-leninist influence I think, many of the guerrilla groups were influenced by an African intellectual who combined the ideas of Sartre, Lenin, and militant Islam. Nothingness, harsh materialism, and sacrificial war. The idea of this is to force something of a fascist state so that people take a side in the approaching civil war. It is obviously disastrous and self-destructive, and there doesn't seem to me any point aside from destabilisation and desperation.

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 14:18 | 4525248 matrix2012
matrix2012's picture

Jack, have you ever read this story?


Flight 103: it was the Uranium - News - The Ecologist (2013-01-08)


Mystery continues to surround the 1988 downing of Panam Flight 103 at Lockerbie - who did it, how, and why? After 25 years study of the topic Patrick Haseldine reveals the shocking truth.


United Nations Assistant Secretary-General and Commissioner for Namibia, Bernt Carlsson, was Lockerbie's highest profile victim, yet the authorities and the media never mention him. Why?


Nevertheless, Rössing managed to delay the implementation of restrictions which could have put it out of business. And - in the end - that delay sufficed: apartheid South Africa and other negotiating parties signed an independence accord on 22nd December 1988.


It was on his way to the signing of the agreement at UN headquarters in New York, that UN Commissioner for Namibia Bernt Carlsson became the highest profile victim of the Pan Am Flight 103 crash at Lockerbie on 21st December 1988.




United Nations Inquiry


In November 2013, I created this e-petition calling upon HM Government (Foreign and Commonwealth Office) to:

"Support a United Nations Inquiry into the deaths of UN Secretary-General Dag Hammarskjöld and UN Assistant Secretary-General Bernt Carlsson"


Dag Hammarskjöld was Secretary-General of the United Nations from 1953 to 1961. On the night of 17-18 September 1961, in the course of a UN mission to try to bring peace to the former Belgian Congo, Hammarskjöld's Swedish-owned and crewed plane crashed near Ndola airport in the British protectorate of Northern Rhodesia (now Zambia). All the passengers and crew died.


It now appears that his plane was shot down in order to protect western mining interests in Belgian Congo's mineral rich Katanga province, to this day a major source of  cobalt, copper, tin and diamonds - not to mention radium and uranium.


On 9 September 2013, the London-based Hammarskjöld Commission reported that there was "significant new evidence" about the plane crash that killed United Nations Secretary-General Dag Hammarskjöld and recommended that the adjourned 1962 UN Inquiry should now be reopened.


UN Assistant Secretary-General Bernt Carlsson was the highest profile victim on Pan Am Flight 103 which was sabotaged over Lockerbie on 21 December 1988.



Read the rest here.

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 15:23 | 4525406 Tulpa
Tulpa's picture

Suicide bombers tend not to be the brightest bulbs in the socket.  Look at the shoe bomber, the underwear bomber, the guys who parked the truck full of explosives in the wrong spot at the WTC in 1993, etc.  They're usually dolts who want to go out in a blaze of glory and downed airplanes fit that profile.  The 9/11 hijackers were the cream of the crop, and other than Flight 93 they were very lucky in getting all the breaks to go their way, and they still managed barely a pinprick in the US population and economy.

If you wanted to really destabilize a country you'd have a steady stream of small attacks on seemingly random targets, sort of like the Beltway sniper in 2002, Iraq for the past 10 years, or the early 2000s campaign of Palestinian suicide bombings.  Thankfully, those are harder to recruit idiots for.

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 17:09 | 4525594 FredFlintstone
FredFlintstone's picture

Barely a pin prick on the US economy? I beg to differ.

Sun, 03/09/2014 - 13:47 | 4527890 FeralSerf
FeralSerf's picture

The shoe bomber, the underwear bomber and the alleged 9/11 hijackers were clearly under the control of an agency like the CIA or Mossad that had another agenda (like a desire for increased airport security for example). There were obviously patsies.

Some (probably all) of the "9/11 hijackers" survived their "suicide terrorist attack".

Sun, 03/09/2014 - 11:29 | 4527532 Straw Dog
Straw Dog's picture


I can top that. I flew from Heathrow to NYC that very day. My wife was in DC and booked the flight for me. It was a toss up between PanAm 103 or some TWA flight. For whatever reason she booked me on the TWA flight, so here I am to tell the tale.

When I arrived at NYC my wife and her mother were nearly hysterical, I of course couldn't understand what the problem was as I knew nothing about the PanAm 103 crash.

I come from the town in Scotland where the Scottish commercial radar flight control station is based, and I had a friend who worked there. He showed me the recordings of Flight 103 as it made its was north through the UK. You could follow the trace on screen until it reached Lockerbie and them It just disappeared. Totally freaky/bizare experience

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 13:02 | 4525074 frankTHE COIN
frankTHE COIN's picture

May All Their souls rest in peace.

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 13:43 | 4525174 kchrisc
kchrisc's picture

Except for any pols, crats or banksters.

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 13:50 | 4525192 Joe A
Joe A's picture

Yes but they don't have a soul anyway

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 13:04 | 4525082 Smegley Wanxalot
Smegley Wanxalot's picture

Obama is relishing using this as a diversion to his incompetent handling of the failed Ukrainian coup he funded.

No I would not doubt that the US govt was involved with taking this plane down at his order.

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 13:12 | 4525100 jerry_theking_lawler
jerry_theking_lawler's picture

Very true. Not much in the MSM news cycle today on the events in ukraine/crimea....except that shots were fired but noone was injured...

Is the Ukrainian story going to go quiet soon?

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 14:29 | 4525291 Skateboarder
Skateboarder's picture

Just like everything else in goldfish-memory-time of the present age. Your memory seems to be malfunctioning, i.e. you remember too much. Did you have your hot pocket for the day?

As far as the JoeAverage 'murkan is considered, Ukraine is a far away shithole that doesn't affect their day-to-day

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 13:10 | 4525094 One And Only
One And Only's picture


Isn't the NSA spying on everyone supposed to prevent this? Apparently the pentagon studying my body language while I was jerking off through my webcam was insufficient to prevent this.

Maybe we all need NSA safety guards attached to us.

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 13:12 | 4525099 Smegley Wanxalot
Smegley Wanxalot's picture

Suggest you put a clothespin on my webcam when I jerk off online, just in case.

Not that I do anything like that.

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 13:14 | 4525102 One And Only
One And Only's picture

I tilt my lap top screen so as they can only see the tip...just to frustrate them.

Sat, 03/08/2014 - 13:16 | 4525104 layman_please
layman_please's picture

kids, masturbating supports terrorists!

Do NOT follow this link or you will be banned from the site!