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Ron Paul: Putin's Crimea Invasion "Has Law On Its Side"

Tyler Durden's picture


The West will claim "everything Putin does is illegal," but while Ron Paul notes "he's no angel," the former congressman adds Putin "has some law on his side." America has a right of secession and Crimea should have it too - "it's such a facade," Paul explains, noting that "contracts, and agreements, and treaties" linked to the Sevastopol base provide Putin with a legal basis to militarily occupy Crimea, "Russia could accuse America of occupying Cuba because it, too, holds a lease on the land around the Guantanamo Bay prison."

Paul goes on to note the hypocrisy of the West and alleges US and European participation in the overthrow of Yanukovich... and for good measure discusses Diane Feinstein, the CIA and spying...


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Thu, 03/13/2014 - 22:32 | 4546272 Independent
Independent's picture

Cuba has better beaches than Crimea I must confess.

Thu, 03/13/2014 - 22:35 | 4546282 Alethian
Alethian's picture

I've heard Crimea's pretty nice.

Thu, 03/13/2014 - 22:49 | 4546335 SilverIsKing
SilverIsKing's picture

The banks along the Crimea River are breathtaking.

Thu, 03/13/2014 - 23:02 | 4546393 Soul Glow
Soul Glow's picture

I would've figuerd they were insolvent by now.

Fri, 03/14/2014 - 00:12 | 4546590 AlaricBalth
AlaricBalth's picture

Dr. Paul is correct. Putin does seem to have the law on his side. There is a legal framework that seems to favor a Crimean secession and has its genesis in United Nations Security Council Resolution 1244.

1244 was the legal basis from which Kosovo was able to split from Serbia. At the time Russia, among a few others, argued against Kosovar independence. Kosovar independence was supported by the U.S., the U.K., France, Italy, and Germany, and most of the other states of the EU. In Feb. 2008 Kosovo declared independence and, despite objections from Russia and Serbia, the US and EU granted Kosovo recognition.

Although the issue of self determination is still debated on the international legal stage, and each case is sui generis, Putin has taken the lessons learned through a loss on the Kosovo argument and used it to his advantage.

Fri, 03/14/2014 - 00:27 | 4546625 Manthong
Manthong's picture

"have the law on his side. "

Um.. so do we, but that does not matter to this government.

Fri, 03/14/2014 - 02:24 | 4546781 JoeSexPack
JoeSexPack's picture

Self-determination means I can secede from govt's, & declare my property outside their taxes?


I secede!


Stop in for St Patty's, I'll buy...

Fri, 03/14/2014 - 03:26 | 4546832 old naughty
old naughty's picture

Follow the money, pleassssssse..."I care not who writes the laws."

Fri, 03/14/2014 - 03:46 | 4546844 James_Cole
James_Cole's picture

Laws? Can someone define that shit for me?

Fri, 03/14/2014 - 05:30 | 4546888 Dollar Bill Hiccup
Dollar Bill Hiccup's picture

Read Kafka. Seriously. Come back in 5 years if you can make it.

Fri, 03/14/2014 - 02:53 | 4546800 123dobryden
123dobryden's picture

Obviously Crimea has law on its side, not Putin

Fri, 03/14/2014 - 05:10 | 4546854 Joe A
Joe A's picture

Yes, and a whole country (Serbia) was bombed over it. At least a 1,000 civilians died. Military losses were never revealed. NATO thought it would take 48 hours for Milosevic to give in but it took them 78 days during which not only military targets were bombed but also civilian structures such as hospitals, open markets, commuter trains and random houses in random villages. A whole infrastructure of a country was destroyed illegally because the campaign was not approved by the UN-SC. You see, Serbia did not give in and NATO didn't like that so shifted its campaign from military targets to civilian ones.

Not defending Milosevic for he cracked down on Albanian insurgents hard but after he pulled back Serbian troops and police from Kosovo the ethnic cleansing of Serbs, Roma and moderate Albanians started with the low point the kidnapping of Serbs and moderate Albanians in order to harvest their organs and sell them on the market. You would think that these perpatrators would be hunted down and brought to justice right? No, they were not. NATO used cluster bombs and depleted uranium of which people -especially in Kosovo- are getting sick. The first FKOR unit consisting of Italians are apparently now also getting sick and dying.

After the campaign the biggest US military base (Bondsteel) was built in Kosovo supposedly to guard Kosovo from these pesky Serbs but the real reason is to guard the Caspian an Black Sea just like Crimea can be used for that. And that is where the whole story of Kosovo and Crimea comes together, people.

Oh, and the legal basis of the Kosovo independence is not UN resolution 1244. That resolution approves the stationing of a military international force called UNMIK. The declaration of independence is actually against international law and Kosovo has not been recognized by the EU but by 22 out of 28 members of the EU with countries such as Spain and Cyprus for obvious reasons not recognizing.

If there is any legal basis (but it is not) it is the verdicht of the International Court of Justice in The Hague which concluded that the adoption of the declaration of independence of the 17 February 2008 did not violate general internationl law because international law contains no 'prohibition on declarations of independence'". And that is now being applied to Crimea because this verdict means that anybody can declare independence, even your neighbour down the road and his cat.

EDIT: the independence of Kosovo is actually based on the Ahtisaari plan. The plan considers Kosovo to be a 'special case' thereby implying that before international law some are more equal than others.
Reality on the ground of course is that 95% of the population in Kosovo is Albanian who don't to have anything to do with Belgrade. But the majority of people in Northern Kosovo are Serbs who don't want to have anything to do with Pristina. Are they also a 'special case' now?

The ruling of the ICJ was stupid. It means that anybody now can declare independence. That doesn't make the independence legal but the mere deed of doing so is not illegal. They opened Pandora's box with this.

Here are some interesting facts about the conflict in Kosovo:

Until 1997 the Kosovo liberation army (KLA or UCK) was on the list of terrorist organizations of the US. In 1998 is was off, in 1999 Serbia was bombed. Sources say that the KLA was trained, financed and supplied by certain intelligence agencies. The KLA killed Serbian cops and officials to which Milosevic so brutely replied to. Former members of the KLA are supposedly now fighting in Syria.

In Rambouillet NATO made Serbia demands they could not accept such as the unhindered access by NATO forces to all installations whether they are civilian or military in Serbia. Effectively this is an occupation. Ironically, Germany made the same demand more or less back in 1914. Back then also Serbia did not comply. No country would. Even Kissinger said that this demand was wrong.

During the campaign against Serbia, Russia sent a unit from Bosnia to the airport of Pristina. When Wesley Clark heard of this the ordered the now famous singer James Blunt (who was a captain in the British army at that time) to engage them. The British superior to Blunt ordered him to stand down and told Clark "I am not going to start WWIII for you". Clark was supposedly sent into retirement over this but now has business interests in Kosovo and Romania.

Lesson from all this is that there is no such thing as international law, just the international law of the strongest.

Fri, 03/14/2014 - 10:02 | 4547575 Dewey Cheatum Howe
Dewey Cheatum Howe's picture

And the parallel here is guess who was used as NATO assets and fought along side the Muslims in Kosovo. You guessed it UNA-UNSO aka Ukrainian National Assembly-Ukrainian National Self Defense a major paramilitary group that is running the government in the Ukraine and was the militant moltov cocktail fighting contingent of the Euromaidan protests they consist of groups like Pravyi Sector aka Right Sector and their political wing is the Svoboda Party aka the neo-nazi seig heiling, goose stepping Stephan Bandera holocaust worshiping individuals. They've been long term NATO assets used by defense contractors like Britam to fight dirty wars for NATO like in Kosovo, Lithuania, South Ossetia, Chechnya.

This is not speculation all that has been well documented and out in the public.

And the best part is jews or joos have no problem with these people.

See here for pictures with Victoria 'fuck the EU' Nudelman Nuland hanging with seig heilers along with another prominent jooooo and central banker who just happens to be the 'acting' Prime Minister Aresiny Yatsenyuk.

A prominent former central banker who is backed by the 2nd richest oligarch in the Ukraine Victor Pincuk who happens to be another jooooo who just happens to have strong ties to people like Soros, Clintons (hint NATO and Kosovo), European Foundation Center and the Ukrainian Grantmakers Forum and a partner of Yalta European Strategy. We collaborate with the Clinton Global Initiative, the Brookings Institution, the Peterson Institute for International Economics, the Open Society Institute.

For Arseniy's connection you'll need to use the way back machine since

has been scrubbed of all connections to find them.

And all these Euromaiden protests (the moltov cocktail throwing variety) all conveniently started once Yanukovych wouldn't sign a free trade agreement with the EU.

NATO Secretary General Anders Fogh Rasmussen criticized Russia on Wednesday for pressuring Kiev not to sign a free trade pact with the European Union, a move that triggered mass protests.

Ukraine, caught in a tug-of-war for influence between Moscow and Brussels, has been rocked by protests since it walked away from the EU association deal two months ago. On Tuesday, Prime Minister Mykola Azarov resigned and deputies rolled back anti-protest laws to try to defuse the crisis.

"An association pact with Ukraine would have been a major boost to Euro-Atlantic security, I truly regret that it could not be done," Rasmussen told le Figaro daily.

I'm sure all this shit is just paranoid tinfoil hat conspiracy coincidences.

Who threw the first fucking punch again and who did they want associate with when the first punch was thrown?

Fri, 03/14/2014 - 10:11 | 4547683 Dewey Cheatum Howe
Dewey Cheatum Howe's picture

Since Victor Pinchuk is the NATO oligarch point man running everything behind the scenes in this some back history missing from this story remember Davos.

On the occasion of the Annual Meeting of the World Economic Forum in Davos we organize the Davos Philanthropic Roundtable in order to foster the growth of philanthropy in Ukraine and throughout the world.

The Philanthropic Roundtable is organized each year to bring together the world’s most renowned philanthropists and leaders from politics, the business community and the non-profit sector. It debates state-of-the-art approaches to problem-solving and seeks to inspire the new global philanthropists of the future.

Among the panelists have been Tony Blair, Sir Richard Branson, Bill Clinton, Paulo Coelho, Bill and Melinda Gates, Damien Hirst, Sheikha Al Mayassa bint Hamad bin Khalifa Al-Thani, Jeff Koons, Jet Li, Shimon Peres, and Muhammad Yunus.

These supposed philanthropic funds are anything but.... Follow the fucking money.

Am I the only one who sees the timeline here...

Fri, 03/14/2014 - 11:20 | 4548038 Joe A
Joe A's picture

Some interesting information there...thanks

Thu, 03/13/2014 - 22:51 | 4546344 Soul Glow
Soul Glow's picture

It's probably a good comparison.  I bet the price of sex in New York compaered to the price in Cuba is comparitive to the price of sex in Russia comapred to the Crimea.  And that, my friends, is consumer price 101.

Fri, 03/14/2014 - 03:51 | 4546848 Joenobody12
Joenobody12's picture

Regarding "Crimea coast is nice "

Google Swallows Nest Castle and see for yourself. 


Fri, 03/14/2014 - 10:52 | 4547883 LMAOLORI
LMAOLORI's picture



Thank you it looks beautiful there I see it was a National Geographic best trip destination spot last year.

Fri, 03/14/2014 - 09:55 | 4547573 TruthHunter
TruthHunter's picture

"Crimea's pretty nice"

If you live in Siberia...

Mostly, because anything better requires a visa.

Thu, 03/13/2014 - 22:37 | 4546288 National Blessing
National Blessing's picture

Dr. Paul is absolutely correct.  We need to keep our noses out of this shit-storm.  The zombies on the Crimean Peninsula love Putin.  So be it.  Bitches.

Thu, 03/13/2014 - 22:41 | 4546303 DaddyO
DaddyO's picture

Why don't you try Yahoo or HuffPo with your pimping.

It's a much better fit...


Thu, 03/13/2014 - 22:48 | 4546331 ACP
ACP's picture

Damn, beat me to it.


Technically though, the law is on Crimea's side, Putin is just an opportunist, waiting patiently for this moment.

Still don't think he will invade, but if he does, he'd get permission and pen agreements with the local authorities in the "upper east side" before doing so. A bloodless coup is always better than a bloody one.

Thu, 03/13/2014 - 22:56 | 4546368 DaddyO
DaddyO's picture

Someone did post a copy of the treaty that created the Ukraine after the fall of the USSR and it clearly made provisions for the Russians being there.

It also was signed by WJC, then POTUS and several of the other stake holders at the time.

Putin is a thug but also has told the USSA to go shove it because he had the law on his side.

I have said repeatedly that Putin is an evil man and the hero worship here on ZH is baffling, but he is operating under the treaty everyone agreed to when the USSR fell.


Thu, 03/13/2014 - 23:07 | 4546404 juggalo1
juggalo1's picture

Doesn't the treaty guarantee Ukraine's territorial integrity?  On what grounds can Putin surround and harass Ukrainian military bases?  Maybe he doesn't respect or recognize the new government.  All the more reason to support talks dialogs and elections.  This sweeping in and annexing the place is pure opportunism.

Thu, 03/13/2014 - 23:17 | 4546445 chump666
chump666's picture

Which means that any constitution can be overridden with military force.  FMD!  Paul, c'mon!!!  F*ck Obama, but lets just keep things into perspective.  What Putin is doing and about to do is frightening.


Fri, 03/14/2014 - 05:15 | 4546877 layman_please
layman_please's picture

show me the law which hasn't been ratified by brute force? all this law, democracy and freedom bullshit is for feebleminded. only 'rule of law' there is, is by brute force and if people don't start to comprehend and exercise it, then they have no right to complain other than to enjoy their servitude.

Thu, 03/13/2014 - 23:17 | 4546447 XRAYD
XRAYD's picture

It is NOT a treaty which would be ratified by the Senate. It is a "memorandum" - sorta like the constitution.

Thu, 03/13/2014 - 23:27 | 4546473 DaddyO
DaddyO's picture

What grounds did the USSA State dept have to spend $5 billion destabilizing the Ukraine?

Putin just stepped into the middle of the street and challenged Obama to a duel.

Side arms at 20 paces, turn and fire.

Now Kerry has gone and thrown down the gauntlet and placed a time limit of Monday for the fun to begin.

Prior to Nuland's F... the EU comment and meddling, the Ukraine was a great place to go and buy lots of steel cased ammo and spend a little time with some fine looking women.


Thu, 03/13/2014 - 23:19 | 4546454 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

Putin is a dope. He's destabilizing and is causing a Russian economic catastrophe...which is now quickly morphing into a political destabilization.

Obviously the Castro Brothers have looted Cuba.
They ain't goin' to Venezuela if this thing heads South...but Brazil should be okay.

Same holds true for Edward Snowden.
On the other hand a full scale take-down of Muscovy and maybe Snowden really will get the pardon after all.

Thu, 03/13/2014 - 23:59 | 4546573 TheFourthStooge-ing
TheFourthStooge-ing's picture

The new meds aren't working. Let your doc know.

Fri, 03/14/2014 - 01:47 | 4546744 Peter Pan
Peter Pan's picture

The meds are fine. The problem is he is overdosing.

Fri, 03/14/2014 - 10:17 | 4547717 TruthHunter
TruthHunter's picture

"The meds are fine. The problem is he is overdosing."

Overdosing is the first thing people try when the "meds" stop working.

If one beer did the trick why drink a case?

Fri, 03/14/2014 - 04:01 | 4546852 Joenobody12
Joenobody12's picture

You are a very sick man. You need help.

Thu, 03/13/2014 - 23:35 | 4546498 yrbmegr
yrbmegr's picture

The Budapest Memorandum is not law in the U.S., despite signature by WJC.

Fri, 03/14/2014 - 03:19 | 4546824 silvermail
silvermail's picture

I'm not advocating for Putin.
I just stand against the lies, aggression and hypocrisy from US side.

Just a decent person, it does not mean pro-Putin person, is not it?

Fri, 03/14/2014 - 07:19 | 4546985 Singelguy
Singelguy's picture

Putin may be a thug but the whole world is being run by thugs and criminals. Putin just happens to be better at it than most. It is not Putin being worshipped but he just looks better compared to Obama. It is all relative.

Fri, 03/14/2014 - 19:30 | 4550239 rockface
rockface's picture

Putin is a patriot albeit a Russian patriot.  It's too bad America doesn't have a patriot as President.

Fri, 03/14/2014 - 19:30 | 4550240 rockface
rockface's picture

Putin is a patriot albeit a Russian patriot.  It's too bad America doesn't have a patriot as President.

Thu, 03/13/2014 - 23:06 | 4546403 Independent
Independent's picture

Why is DoChen even promoting this moron on his blog

Thu, 03/13/2014 - 23:16 | 4546438 XRAYD
XRAYD's picture

beaches or bitchez?

Thu, 03/13/2014 - 23:18 | 4546452 LongBalls
LongBalls's picture

America missed a saving opportunity when it was cheated out of Ron Paul!

Fri, 03/14/2014 - 08:57 | 4547245 Republi-Ken
Republi-Ken's picture

Hey RON did you ever hear of the 1994 Treaty signed by Russia and the USA

to forever never ever invade and violate Ukraine's sovereign borders???

Ukraine gave up its entire nuclear arsenal as collateral. Got that?

Putin just violated his own 94 Treaty.

And Obama has no choice but to defend the written word of the USA to protect the borders of Ukraine.

Got that?

Its called International Law.

Hey TYLER why havent you told your readers the whole truth and nothing but???

Fri, 03/14/2014 - 09:03 | 4547278 LongBalls
LongBalls's picture

So the voters of Ukraine should take a back seat to an agreement signed by nations not their own while one of those nations is purposefully manipulating democratic elections? Educate yourself brother.

Fri, 03/14/2014 - 09:08 | 4547304 silvermail
silvermail's picture

"Putin just violated his own 94 Treaty."

- If in Kiev was an armed criminal coup: then Turchynov, Yatsenyuk and other is criminals. They should be arrested and prosecuted.
- But if in Kiev was an people's revolution: then this is now a different country, for which Russia, USA, EU, Crimea and Donetsk dont have  any legal or constitutional obligations. 

If you are a lawyer, you should understand that Tsarist Russia and the Soviet Union after the revolution - it is different state.

And if you're not a lawyer, you should not try to use propaganda from faux news, as legal norms.


Thu, 03/13/2014 - 22:32 | 4546275 Let them eat iPads
Let them eat iPads's picture

The last sane leader left in 'Merica.

Thu, 03/13/2014 - 22:37 | 4546290 Overfed
Overfed's picture

Too bad he's about retired.

Thu, 03/13/2014 - 22:44 | 4546317 SilverIsMoney
SilverIsMoney's picture

He just started his own online network and writes and speaks everyday. I wouldn't call that "retired"

Thu, 03/13/2014 - 23:04 | 4546400 willwork4food
willwork4food's picture

Long Live Paul Craig Roberts.

Thu, 03/13/2014 - 23:54 | 4546557 erg
erg's picture

I've enjoyed listening to PCR for a few years now. Liked him from the git go.

He has an endearing quality of being able to succinctly describe something grim and follow it up with an earnest chuckle while his dog brays behind him.

Fri, 03/14/2014 - 00:39 | 4546651 Savyindallas
Savyindallas's picture

PCR is the best. No one is better. He is what a real president should be  -in every way.

Thu, 03/13/2014 - 22:34 | 4546280 Alethian
Alethian's picture

Saying it like it is.

Thu, 03/13/2014 - 22:35 | 4546284 DOGGONE
DOGGONE's picture

Ron Paul, Show & Tell this:
The Public Be Suckered

Thu, 03/13/2014 - 22:39 | 4546289 NoDebt
NoDebt's picture

"Russia could accuse America of occupying Cuba because it, too, holds a lease on the land around the Guantanamo Bay prison."

We should just take Cuba.  In for a penny, in for a pound.  

Do I need to put the tiresome sarc tag on this one to spell it out for the slow?

Thu, 03/13/2014 - 23:38 | 4546510 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

yeah...pretty much.

i mean here i was simply asking for a Full Retard Debate on the House floor.
Not that his son can't say something of course.

"It's just a vote" right?
Oh, well.
"In the end all we want is not even rhetoric"...even here.
I'd say i feel violated...but we're all past that point now.
"We're all full retard now."

I mean "ridiculous diatribes taken out of context" at the end of the Day pretty much sums it all up.
At least McCain will have a gun in his hand instead of a microphone up his ass.
"time to drop the verbal H-bomb."
Look out...
Canadians...coming through.

Sat, 03/15/2014 - 12:57 | 4552064 Seer
Seer's picture

Obviously you're one of those tired old commie-haters, fully primed with the propaganda.

Riddle me this: if communism is so bad (which it is) then how in the hell could it take over the planet? (BAD SYSTEMS FAIL)

Sorry, but the propaganda was designed to solidify the MIC (which is then used to control your ass).

Fri, 03/14/2014 - 00:39 | 4546652 indygo55
indygo55's picture

We should just take Cuba


Really, and call it South Miami.

Sat, 03/15/2014 - 12:58 | 4552066 Seer
Seer's picture

Nothing like giving it a bad name or anything!

Thu, 03/13/2014 - 22:38 | 4546292 zionhead101
zionhead101's picture

Ron Paul tells the truth, ok, but he's not a politician anymore, and HIS son sure as hell isn't speking up an telling the truth.

Funny how they can tell the truth, post election, where they never again have to face an electorate.

Ok, ron paul has a captured audience here on ZH, cuz essentially we all Be "LIBERTARIANS", of the hate-gubmint breed, that said, I just wish Ron Paul, would kick Ran Paul in his AIPAC and help his son find his Ball's to up against McCain, and Lurch.

In fucking PUBLIC.

Also I don't know how many missed but in the last election, in Texas the TEA party got there asses KICKED, so its clear that TEA PARTY has been permanently destroyed as a USA brand by AIPAC.

Thu, 03/13/2014 - 22:44 | 4546315 NoDebt
NoDebt's picture

I think it's a testament to your character none of this has made you bitter, Francis.

Thu, 03/13/2014 - 23:09 | 4546414 zionhead101
zionhead101's picture

I could/would ONLY be bitter if I still lived in the USA, having left 15+ years ago, I'm happier than a zionist kleptocrat in pile of Goyim Feces.


Thu, 03/13/2014 - 23:38 | 4546504 tickhound
tickhound's picture

Happy Zionist-Kleptocrat > Oxymoron

Happy Zionist-Kleptocrat < Tri-oxymoron

Thu, 03/13/2014 - 22:52 | 4546346 SilverIsMoney
SilverIsMoney's picture

I'd suggest you go watch Rand's speech at CPAC last weekend about the NSA and then later read his article on breitbart about how Ted Cruz and the GOP misrepresent President Reagan (An article Michael Reagan said proved "Rand got his dad"). Anyway all that seemed to go unnoticed here on ZH and I can't help but wonder why... I thought both the fight with Cruz and Paul killing him on Britbart and the speech against the NSA were pretty big events but again, nothing on ZH. I don't think Rand is as bad as the haters make him out to be. Of course he isn't Ron but he's our only hope.

Thu, 03/13/2014 - 22:57 | 4546370 Grande Tetons
Grande Tetons's picture

 Of course he isn't Ron but he's our only hope.

That would make a nice bumper sticker. 

Fri, 03/14/2014 - 11:29 | 4548090 Uncle Remus
Uncle Remus's picture

No, they'll think you're pining for the Gipper.

Thu, 03/13/2014 - 23:01 | 4546388 DaddyO
DaddyO's picture

I would agree. Rand's CPAC speech was stellar!

I watched TC as well and felt as if he was performing.

Rand Paul spoke from conviction, you can sense the difference if you go back and watch the vids on YT.

I am squarely in RP camp at the moment if he should choose to run for POTUS.

That is clearly subject to change, however I liked RP's deep sense of true indignation with the incursion of the ruling class into the BIll of Rights.

No one else has ponied up to the lawsuit bar and filed suit against the POTUS.

Everyone seems to be all hat and no cattle with the exception of Rand Paul in that regard.


Thu, 03/13/2014 - 23:07 | 4546408 zionhead101
zionhead101's picture


Rand & Ron are controlled opposition by AIPAC.

Once Ron got the US BANKING at Congress he accomplished SHIT.

Bullshit talks and reality bites you in the ass.

If PAUL family is the best you goer.t, then you got an ZIO-Grand Mother

If PAUL is the best you got then, to quote Obama "HOPELESS".

Thu, 03/13/2014 - 23:29 | 4546478 DaddyO
DaddyO's picture

Piss off, Chump...


Fri, 03/14/2014 - 00:29 | 4546629 FreedomGuy
FreedomGuy's picture

Yeah, the old Oppositeville assertion. If the Paul's are the secret opposition then there is no hope (if you favor liberty). Might as well crawl under a rock and wait for the end.

Thu, 03/13/2014 - 23:46 | 4546534 acetinker
acetinker's picture

If Rand is our only hope, we are well and truly fucked.  Why do you need a 'leader'?

Fri, 03/14/2014 - 02:03 | 4546765 Quentin Daniels
Quentin Daniels's picture

Not looking for a 'leader' so much as the hope that there's someone left inside the machine willing to pull out a screwdriver and start dismantling it from within.

Thu, 03/13/2014 - 23:54 | 4546556 tickhound
tickhound's picture

"Help me Obi-wan Kenobi, you're my only hope."

Yeah Rand's no Obi-wan.

And btw, speak for yourself.

Fri, 03/14/2014 - 00:28 | 4546628 Savyindallas
Savyindallas's picture

Rand is fine . People should leave him alone. He's shrewd politician who learned from his dad's expereince that you have to play politics to avoid forever being in the self righteous minority. His dad got maybe 10%-not even close to be a real player.  He's careful how he words things. That doesn't always play well with Liberty minded , intelligent people. 90% of the people are sheeple who sense things are really wrong, but still can't figure out the truth. he appeals to their basic instincts and insecurities -he just has to be careful so he is not branded as a radical  Israel hating bigot, which is exactly what the media would like to convince people he is. He is smart. he is shrewed. he is honest. Don't bash rand. realize what he is doing. realize the fine line he is playing to stay a serious contender.  

Fri, 03/14/2014 - 00:34 | 4546636 tickhound
tickhound's picture

Don't leave out the % of us who still weren't satisfied.

Fri, 03/14/2014 - 11:11 | 4547987 TruthHunter
TruthHunter's picture

"His dad got maybe 10%"

Most amazing considering the MSM shutout.

Sat, 03/15/2014 - 13:00 | 4552074 Seer
Seer's picture

Kind of straying off the road aren't we?

Messenger.  Message.  FOCUS!

Thu, 03/13/2014 - 22:40 | 4546297 roadlust
roadlust's picture

"America has a right of sucession???"  Only in the "Confederacy Lives!" adled brains of wingnuts in the Tea Party and oddballs like Paul.  Remember that thing called the Civil War?  (Hint: It was fought because the South had no "right" to leave the US.) 

Under Ukraine law, Crimea doesn't have that right either.  But who cares about stuff like "law," when like Putin and Paul, you can just make "rights" up!

Thu, 03/13/2014 - 22:47 | 4546326 chump666
chump666's picture

I don't know what Paul is rambling on about, I don't like Obama, but this apologist backlash is out of control.  First up Putin doesn't care about Crimea, hardly a repressed area, he is about  to invade greater Ukraine.  Crimea is a tactical play, ports, airfields are a strategic importance to apply pressure onto the eastern side eg Estonia, Romania and Vlad's Carpathian mountains.

Disappointing Paul, I thought you were against military expansion, imperialism and aggression. 

Thu, 03/13/2014 - 23:42 | 4546521 FuzzyDunlop21
FuzzyDunlop21's picture

Yea no shit its tactical. But the bottom line is Crimea is less than 3 days from voting to join the Russian Federation. That is the democracy American leaders pretend to love so much. A naked women is just throwing herself into Putin's arms. How does that make him the bad guy? If he moves on to other parts of Ukraine, well, then you have a point but we are not there yet

Fri, 03/14/2014 - 04:53 | 4546868 layman_please
layman_please's picture

can't wait for democracy loving putin to announce referendums in chechnya, ingushetia and dagestan. 

Fri, 03/14/2014 - 06:02 | 4546915 silvermail
silvermail's picture

In Chechnya already has been a referendum. And People said: "Together with Russia."
Are there any questions?

If you were literate person, then you would know that Chechnya has never put forward demands to secede from Russia. Because Chechnya can not be an independent state within its borders. It sees and understands any fool who saw topographic map.
Even Dudayev was demanded for Chechnya only special conditions as part of the Russian Federation.
You should read more history, but not propaganda from faux news.

Fri, 03/14/2014 - 06:33 | 4546934 layman_please
layman_please's picture

" Chechnya already has been a referendum. And People said: "Together with Russia." "

in soviet union we had approval rate of 99,99% in every election. you don't change the society and the rules how it's run just by announcing new federation instead of union. how come all of you complaining west has rigged election but when you look east, where military is rolling the streets, everything is just fine. 

i rest my case, it's pointless. just watch out for those three places. of course not because for the coming referendums. LOL

Fri, 03/14/2014 - 07:06 | 4546969 silvermail
silvermail's picture

Before you criticize the Soviet Union or Russia, look at the regime of military-police dictatorship in the United States, where people are deprived of the right to elect the President.
And then look at the fascist regime of military-police dictatorship in Kiev, where rebel who seized power through mass murder and deceit, are now refusing to conduct any election. LOL

Fri, 03/14/2014 - 08:27 | 4547093 layman_please
layman_please's picture

cut the binary shit, please. i know the western establishment well enough and i have never justified any of it. in fact, until ukrainian coup i was most adherent basher of it but i see no reason to further nurture the echo-chamber ZH has become.

btw, are you russian?


Sat, 03/15/2014 - 07:29 | 4551496 silvermail
silvermail's picture

No, I'm not Russian. I am Ukrainian. But I, like the majority of Ukrainians, will always be against the Nazis and their criminal accomplices. It does not depend on the location of the Nazis and their accomplices: Kiev or Washington. The Nazis are the same everywhere.

Sat, 03/15/2014 - 07:43 | 4551502 GetZeeGold
GetZeeGold's picture




Word up there dawg.


Annnnnnnd....all wars are bankers wars.

Thu, 03/13/2014 - 22:47 | 4546329 Volkodav
Volkodav's picture

Ignorant post.

Thu, 03/13/2014 - 22:49 | 4546334 DaddyO
DaddyO's picture

I believe it's 'secession' and it is a right reserved to the states.


Thu, 03/13/2014 - 23:02 | 4546391 yrbmegr
yrbmegr's picture

No, an individual state does not reserve the right to secede unilaterally when it ratifies the Constitution and joins the Union.  Your link has a statement that the Supreme Court has not ruled out the possibility of "divisibility by revolution" or by "consent of the States".  Revolution is, of course, not political or lawful.  Consent of the states is not unilateral.  I think the Constitution does contemplate states leaving the Union through some mutual act of agreement, but the federal government would have to agree to yield its sovereignty in the territory of the state for the state to lawfully secede.

Thu, 03/13/2014 - 23:48 | 4546520 TrulyBelieving
TrulyBelieving's picture

If a State doesn't have the right to secede, then that State is in a Union with tyranny. And the proof of it's tyranny is it won't let you leave.

Fri, 03/14/2014 - 05:03 | 4546605 TrulyBelieving
TrulyBelieving's picture

In any lawful contract if a party to the contract fails to abide accordingly, then all other partys are no longer bound to the contract.

Fri, 03/14/2014 - 07:03 | 4546966 yrbmegr
yrbmegr's picture

That is not necessarily true.  There are only certain circumstances under which parties are relieved of the duty to perform under the contract.

Fri, 03/14/2014 - 00:31 | 4546633 August
August's picture

>>>Revolution is, of course, not political or lawful.

Hilarious crap.

Fri, 03/14/2014 - 06:33 | 4546942 silvermail
silvermail's picture

- If in Kiev was an armed criminal coup: then Turchynov, Yatsenyuk and other is criminals. They should be arrested and prosecuted.
- But if in Kiev was an people's revolution: then this is now a different country, for which Crimea and Donetsk dont have  any legal or constitutional obligations.

Fri, 03/14/2014 - 07:10 | 4546918 silvermail
silvermail's picture

Tell the inadmissibility of separation to the Serbs peoples, about Kosovo. LOL

Fri, 03/14/2014 - 08:34 | 4547154 Blano
Blano's picture

You can rebel to start something, but you can't rebel to change or opt out?  Sounds pretty hypocritical to me.  Of course, that is the best way to describe the US and A these days.

Thu, 03/13/2014 - 22:50 | 4546339 Downtoolong
Downtoolong's picture

The South will rise again! I'm not kidding, I saw a gravesite outside a church in Little River South Carolina the other day with the Stars and Bars flag on it.

Thu, 03/13/2014 - 23:12 | 4546424 A Nanny Moose
A Nanny Moose's picture

Appeal to force. If might makes right, the why was the Holocaust "bad?" Why was Hitler "bad," while Stalin was less "bad" Hmm...Einstein? Why was Saddam "bad", while Bush/Barry are less bad? Didn't think this through, in your morally relativistic, cognitively dissonant haze, did you.

If the former Republik of the Untied States was such a great idea, why was it necessary to force the South to ENSLAVING 100's of thousands of men, in a war that history books have painted as being about freeing slaves?

The outcome of the use of force, is the exact opposite of the stated intent. Hope you enjoy Chains.

Fri, 03/14/2014 - 07:22 | 4546989 silvermail
silvermail's picture

You do not understand the main differences between Hitler and Stalin.
Hitler killed people on a national basis, that is, Hitler was a Nazi.
Stalin killed people along class lines, that is, he was an internationalist and communist.

Fri, 03/14/2014 - 00:21 | 4546609 Seize Mars
Seize Mars's picture


Not only is the right of secession implicit, in the case of Texas it is actually explicit - they signed an agreement to join the Union with the right to withdraw at any time.

By the way, you're a drooling idiot. Nothing personal.

Sat, 03/15/2014 - 13:04 | 4552090 Seer
Thu, 03/13/2014 - 22:42 | 4546305 lakecity55
lakecity55's picture

THIS is the man who should be our President.

Fri, 03/14/2014 - 07:30 | 4547010 silvermail
silvermail's picture

"THIS is the man who should be our President."

You mean Putin?

Thu, 03/13/2014 - 22:42 | 4546307 HardAssets
HardAssets's picture

Ron Paul would have been elected  President if the American people had any good sense.

He wasn't and they don't - - -  so here we are in the present fix.

Thu, 03/13/2014 - 22:54 | 4546358 RevRex
RevRex's picture

Is that why Ron Paul has repeatedly said it is stupid for conservatives to vote for a third party?



Nobody ever answers that for some reason......cowardice mostly.

Thu, 03/13/2014 - 23:39 | 4546515 samsara
samsara's picture

Seen it before, the masses easily swayed by their own stupidity.  It even has examples in the bible.

"Give us Barabbas!",

Fri, 03/14/2014 - 00:23 | 4546613 MisterMousePotato
MisterMousePotato's picture

Saddest example I can think of was Lech Walensa losing an election. No wonder people who want to rule unchecked insist on 'democracy'.

Thu, 03/13/2014 - 22:43 | 4546309 yrbmegr
yrbmegr's picture

America does not have a "right of secession".  By ratifying the Constitution, each state has ceded some sovereignty to the federal government, which cannot be unilaterally recaptured by right.  Even if you think President Obama is violating the Constitution by breathing, the remedy is not secession.  

Thu, 03/13/2014 - 22:50 | 4546337 roadlust
roadlust's picture

Yeah, the remedy is called an "election."  Which, obviously, many people in this country (and Ukraine) think they can ignore when their guy loses. 

Thu, 03/13/2014 - 22:52 | 4546348 yrbmegr
yrbmegr's picture

Well, yes.  But I was thinking of impeachment and conviction in the Senate.

Thu, 03/13/2014 - 23:05 | 4546402 DaddyO
DaddyO's picture

Technically your right, America does not have secession rights per se.

It is a right reserved for the state legislatures with the consent of the Congress.

Better go read up there skippy.


Thu, 03/13/2014 - 23:12 | 4546422 yrbmegr
yrbmegr's picture

If it requires the consent of the Congress, it is not a right of the states.  A right is something you have without anybody else's consent.  For example, you have ownership rights in your property.  If another attempts to take your property, you can have a court enforce your ownership right against the will of the other.  It is your right.  The states have no such right to secede.

Thu, 03/13/2014 - 22:59 | 4546381 Dr. Engali
Dr. Engali's picture

You have no clue what you are talking about. The states do have a right to secede and I suggest you reflect in the 9th and 10th amendment. If that doesn't help then reflect on another important document in U.S. History, more specifically this line:

"That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. "

Thu, 03/13/2014 - 23:04 | 4546399 zionhead101
zionhead101's picture



whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government,

Thu, 03/13/2014 - 23:09 | 4546413 yrbmegr
yrbmegr's picture

The Declaration of Independence is not law, and it does not confer any rights on the States.  Upon ratifying the Constitution, the States agree to the Supremacy Clause, which states that the U.S. Constitution is superior to every state law and constitution.  By ratifying the Constitution, states confer sovereignty on the federal government, as outlined in the U.S. Constitution, and they agree that the powers outlined therein are vested in the federal government, and are superior to any state law or constitution.  There is no right reserved to recapture that sovereignty, and nothing in the U.S. Constitution allows a state to divest the federal government of its sovereignty by right.

Thu, 03/13/2014 - 23:15 | 4546433 Dr. Engali
Dr. Engali's picture

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

To put it simply: it is not codified in the constitution that the federal government can prevent a state from seceding, therefore if it is not against the law if the state, the people have the right to secede.

As far as the Declaration of Independence not being law, I never said it was, but it's foundations hold true today.

Thu, 03/13/2014 - 23:24 | 4546462 yrbmegr
yrbmegr's picture

The Supremacy Clause is the codified portion, not subject to the exceptions of the Ninth and Tenth Amendments, that prevents states from seceding by right.  The state agrees that the powers outlined in the Constitution are within the sovereignty of the federal government, and are superior to any piece of paper a state can produce.  Therefore, a state cannot by vote, resolution, constitution, or any process of law, assert a right of secession that is superior to the federal powers outlined in the U.S. Constitution.  The Ninth and Tenth Amendments do not nullify the Supremacy Clause.

Thu, 03/13/2014 - 23:42 | 4546522 CrashisOptimistic
CrashisOptimistic's picture

What clauses in the Serbian Constitution permitted Kosovo to secede?

Thu, 03/13/2014 - 23:45 | 4546530 yrbmegr
yrbmegr's picture

No idea.  I have never read the Serbian Constitution.

Fri, 03/14/2014 - 00:10 | 4546586 acetinker
acetinker's picture

You missed the sarcasm in Crash's comment, the law is whatever the fuck I say it is, bitch!  I occupy this space and if you think you can can control it, bring it!

Thu, 03/13/2014 - 23:36 | 4546500 monad
monad's picture

The DoI is the 1st legal instrument on which the united States is based. The Constitution is the 2nd, it is the contract negotiated to fulfill the principles set forth in the DoI.

Thu, 03/13/2014 - 23:39 | 4546514 yrbmegr
yrbmegr's picture

The Constitution is the Supreme Law of the land, by universal consent.  The DOI is not a legal instrument.

Fri, 03/14/2014 - 07:46 | 4547037 headhunt
headhunt's picture

So the DOI is just a soliloquy?

If so; who deemed it to be so?

If you say the Supreme Court there is no legal standing for the Supreme Court to make the final determination of law. Period.

Fri, 03/14/2014 - 12:31 | 4548356 monad
monad's picture

First, the Constitution was scrapped by Hanoverian/zionist traitors beginning 100 years ago, including every president and representative since FDR. Read the Supreme Court decisions.

Second, Jefferson's views on changing constitutions describes this fact, that the DoI is the legal foundation of the nation he created. As an imperfect blueprint to accomplish the rights to life, liberty and property declared in the DoI, in theory the Constitution can be changed or replaced without losing its context, because the DoI is the law of the land.

This country is so infiltrated with spies, traitors and brainwashed casualties, our enemies would love to change our Constitution to enslave us again. The UN is designed for this purpose, to take away our soveriegnty, shackle us and restore feudal tyranny worldwide.

We are equal only if we are all free. You are free or you are not free, no exceptions. When some people have more rights and privileges than others, its tyranny. When the State owns your property, its absolute tyranny, slavery, because you are State property. When you lose the right to protect your property and your liberty, you are a slave.

I am my own Soveriegn. I don't owe anyone anything. You can measure the extent of the corruption by how far the current practices violate this inviolable principle.

You have to think for yourself. You have to protect yourself.

You have to fight.

Thu, 03/13/2014 - 23:47 | 4546538 TheMeatTrapper
TheMeatTrapper's picture


You are an over educated dumbfuck. May your chains rest lightly upon you. 

BTW, how does the FedGov cum taste?

Thu, 03/13/2014 - 23:51 | 4546549 yrbmegr
yrbmegr's picture

The Constitution is what it is.  I'm merely telling you all what it says.  States can leave, if the federal government consents, but if not, they can't.

Fri, 03/14/2014 - 07:21 | 4546988 Serenity Now
Serenity Now's picture


You are correct about the Constitution.  Don't expect a lot of Constitutional scholars to show up and back you up around here.  Most people on ZH (right, wrong, or indifferent) just post to be funny or mean.  There are some who know what they are talking just have to figure out who they are.  :)

Fri, 03/14/2014 - 00:38 | 4546647 obi wan
obi wan's picture

The Decleration of Independence is incorporated into the US Code as Organic Law

Fri, 03/14/2014 - 06:26 | 4546937 yrbmegr
yrbmegr's picture

The Supreme Court has specifically, and repeatedly, held otherwise.  See, e.g., Ware v. Hylton, 3 U.S. 199 (1796); Cotting v. Goddard, 183 U.S. 79 (1901); Gulf, C. & S. F. R. Co. v. Ellis, 165 U.S. 150 (1897).

Fri, 03/14/2014 - 10:11 | 4547686 Abaco
Abaco's picture

Well, given that they held that Blacks are chattel, abortion is a right guaranteed under the constitution under the basis of privacy but actual privacy is not protected, and that the limited power to regulate commerce among the several states actually means the right to regulate non-commerce that occurs wholly within a state, and that a penalty can also be a tax, why should anyone give a a well cooked fart what the SC says?

Fri, 03/14/2014 - 07:43 | 4547031 Serenity Now
Serenity Now's picture

It most certainly is not.

Fri, 03/14/2014 - 12:08 | 4548293 obi wan
obi wan's picture

Maybe it isn't, but its not really "certain". I think the link to the US Code, on the .gov website, which says it is organic law makes it questionable, one way or another.

As Justice Brewer of the Surpeme Court put it in Gulf, C. & S. F. R. CO. v. Ellis, 165 U.S. 150 (1897), "it is always safe to read the letter of the constitution in the spirit of the Declaration of Independence".

All of this legal stuff is subserviant to the people, the people are not subserviant to the law/government.

Tue, 03/18/2014 - 06:32 | 4562208 Serenity Now
Serenity Now's picture

Okay, I don't argue with that at all.  I didn't mean to argue with you in the first place.  :)

Thu, 03/13/2014 - 23:58 | 4546570 acetinker
acetinker's picture

No, the remedy is secession, but not by the states... too many welfare recipients, including the state itself.  Individuals, the ones who actually produce have to find a way to reject this.  Not many of us left- Can we do another tea party?  I ain't hopeful.

Fri, 03/14/2014 - 00:35 | 4546637 August
August's picture

>>>America does not have a "right of secession".

More hilarious crap.

The sort of issue you're referring to is not usually settled in a courtroom. You can look it up.

Fri, 03/14/2014 - 07:06 | 4546968 yrbmegr
yrbmegr's picture

Agreed.  But I was talking about a "right".  There is no right to secede.

Fri, 03/14/2014 - 07:35 | 4547018 silvermail
silvermail's picture

If in Washington is will committed armed fascist coup, then any constitutional obligations of the states before the center, will be automatically revoked.

Thu, 03/13/2014 - 22:43 | 4546311 roadlust
roadlust's picture

Oh yeah, there IS an elected government in Ukraine that legally removed the former President, and voted for the current Prime Minister.  Everything done in the change of government so far has been done according to Ukrainian law.  Thugs and Russians in Crimea are choosing to ignore the legal government in Ukraine because...   they speak Russian. 

Thu, 03/13/2014 - 22:53 | 4546356 yrbmegr
yrbmegr's picture

I understand the parliamentary vote to remove Yanukovich from office failed to garner the constitutionally required 3/4 vote.

Thu, 03/13/2014 - 23:12 | 4546417 Independent
Independent's picture

Surprising considering there were thugs with bats around when the vote was taken and most parliment members have a habit of pressing absentee member's voting buttons.  I guess the thugs with the bats were from Blackwater and didn't speak or read Russian so they didnt know what buttons to push etc...

Thu, 03/13/2014 - 23:14 | 4546429 yrbmegr
yrbmegr's picture

It appears that there were simply not enough eligible voters present at the time of the vote to be intimidated (or otherwise influenced) to vote for removal.

Thu, 03/13/2014 - 23:12 | 4546419 tsuki
tsuki's picture

Minor detail to the propagandists. 

Thu, 03/13/2014 - 23:20 | 4546457 BearClaw
BearClaw's picture

The vote was also not ratified by Ukraine's Supreme court as per their Constitution.

In fact Ukraine's Supreme Court hasn't been seen or heard from since the Judge presiding over the trial of some of the Maidan protesters was shot & killed in February.

Thu, 03/13/2014 - 23:25 | 4546469 yrbmegr
yrbmegr's picture

Clearly, the current regime has doubtful legitimacy.

Fri, 03/14/2014 - 07:45 | 4547028 Serenity Now
Serenity Now's picture

roadlust, I agree with you.

yrbmegr, Where did you get that?  My understanding was that the parliament refused to depose him, and then did so after the protests grew.  A government doesn't have the right to govern without the consent of the governed.  The Ukranians protested against their government, then Yanukovich fled, then elections were announced to be held soon, then Russia moved into Crimea, then Crimea pretended that they have their own parliament that can vote for whatever they want (which they don't).

Kiev is still the seat of government in Ukraine.  Not Crimea.  If Crimea has declared independence from Ukraine, then let's see if Ukraine lets them go or starts a civil war.  

I have stated the above as factual as I can.  

Sat, 03/15/2014 - 13:15 | 4552126 Seer
Seer's picture

"If Crimea has declared independence from Ukraine"

Wouldn't the fact that they "pretended that they have their own parliament" pretty much be the same thing?

Sat, 03/15/2014 - 13:21 | 4552139 Seer
Seer's picture

And, let me add that I highly doubt that any formal-looking "declaration of independence" would be "honored" by entities who have been hell-bent on subverting Ukraine for decades.

Like Britain read the US Declaration of Independence and went, "well, yeah, OK?"

NO!  The "declarations" are for INTERNAL rallying purposes.  I suspect that the folks in Crimea know that actions speak louder than words.

Fri, 03/14/2014 - 00:38 | 4546646 The Capitalist ...
The Capitalist Review's picture


Where is your proof beyond pure conjecture? After the failed US supported Orange Revolution in 2004, Yanukovych a rotten statist, was still "elected". As there are no more bogeymen in the world and Putin already outflanked the Amerikan government on Syria, hell hath no fury like a US state department scorned. Read between the lines. Become a good economist in the Bastiat since and see that which is unseen, not simply that which is seen. Democracy is simply mob rule. Amongst 10 people, 6 people vote to take 4 people's property. Why is that legitimate? Just because someone is compelled to feel you up or take your shit, doesn't make it legitimate. Quit following the neo-con talking points and understand culturally and historically what's going on. Your lack and knowledge and understanding of what secession is/means, is pure innovation on your part. Go listen to the Nuland tape. Go learn about Svoboda and the Social National party in Ukraine. Putin is certainly no saint and gets no pass for the things he's done, but this western propaganda has reached fever pitch and it's the last ditch efforts of a declining hegemon. Since you're too lazy to research BEFORE you post, I'll post links for you:

Fri, 03/14/2014 - 07:53 | 4547033 silvermail
silvermail's picture

Ukraine's parliament has no right to unseat President. Parliament can only hold impeachment proceedings in the manner prescribed by the Constitution. Impeachment was not carried.
Therefore, your personal opinion on the legality of the rebels, is not legally justified.
That is, this is only personal delirium from housewife who understand zero about the law and legislation.


By the way, the Kiev criminal rebels already have refused to hold elections.  They postponed the date of elections for an indefinite term. Because they know that they are not legal for majority and so they are afraid of fair elections.

Fri, 03/14/2014 - 07:53 | 4547051 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

yet there are a lot of precedents for european parliaments going against the head of the state, starting with what afterwards resulted in the Magna Charta

I'm not arguing in either way, just noting the fact that parliaments, in Europe, are in a dominant (constitutional) position, compared to the heads of state

the technical term to describe Ukraine in this moment would be constitutional crisis. which is usually broken by the military declaring for one side or the other

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