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Pay Our Pensions Or We'll Throw You In Jail: The Legalization Of Looting

Tyler Durden's picture


Submitted by Charles Hugh-Smith of OfTwoMinds blog,

Rather than deal forthrightly with the reality that unrealistic promises made to their employees cannot be honored, local government has pursued a strategy of legalizing looting.

The gradual erosion of civil liberties, legal rights and government ethics are connected: our rights don't just vanish into thin air, they are expropriated by government: Federal, state and local. Though much is written about the loss of civil liberties at the Federal level, many of the most blatantly illegal power grabs are occurring in local government.

This expropriation is under the radar of the average citizen because the process slowly chips away the fundamentals of legality and justice: bit by bit, due process and the rights of the individual have been eroded by state and local governments until the fundamental Constitutional protections simply cease to exist.

When local government looting is legalized, the entire system is illegal. Here are three recent examples of blatantly illegal looting by local governments.

First up: privatizing the collection of traffic fines and probation to create a modernized debtor's prison. We turn to The Nation for the story:

The Town That Turned Poverty Into a Prison Sentence Most states shut down their debtors’ prisons more than 100 years ago; in 2005, Harpersville, Alabama, opened one back up.

What happened to Ford in the small town of Harpersville was tangled and unconstitutional-- but hardly unique. Similar tales have been playing out in more than 1,000 courts across the country, from Georgia to Idaho. In the face of strained budgets and cuts to public services, state and local governments have been stepping up their efforts to ensure that the criminal justice system pays for itself. They have increased fines and court costs, intensified law enforcement efforts, and passed so-called “pay-to-stay” laws that charge offenders daily jail fees. They have also begun contracting with “offender-funded” probation companies like JCS, which offer a particularly attractive solution—collection, at no cost to the court.

Harpersville’s experiment with private probation began nearly ten years ago. In Alabama, people know Harpersville best as a speed trap, the stretch of country highway where the speed limit changes six times in roughly as many miles. Indeed, traffic is by far the biggest business in the town of 1,600, where there is little more than Big Man’s BBQ, the Sudden Impact Collision Center and a dollar store.

In 2005, the court’s revenue was nearly three times the amount that the town received from a sales tax, Harpersville’s second-largest source of income. Fines had become key to Harpersville’s development, but it proved difficult to chase down those who did not pay. So, that year, Harpersville decided to follow in the footsteps of other Alabama cities and hire JCS to help collect.

It was a system of extraction and coercion so flagrant that Alabama Circuit Court Judge Hub Harrington likened it to a modern-day “debtors’ prison.”

Her fines for the three charges added up to $2,922, court papers show. Ward sentenced her--and others who said they couldn’t pay their full fines that day-- to probation. Once a means of allowing convicted offenders to stay out of jail on the condition of good behavior, probation had now become a court-sanctioned tool for debt collection.
Burdette reported to the JCS office in nearby Childersburg, where she paid her probation officer $100. Of that, $45 went toward her fine, $10 toward a one-time “start-up fee,” and the last $45 went to JCS as a monthly fee for service.

Next up: illegal search and seizure under the pretext of traffic violations. As if "driving while black" isn't bad enough, now "driving with cash" is pretext enough to be stripped of your rights and your property stolen by local government:

Lawsuits over cash seizures settled in Nevada

Tan Nguyen of Newport, Calif., and Michael Lee of Denver said in lawsuits filed in U.S. District Court in Reno they were stopped last year on U.S. Interstate 80 near Winnemucca about 165 miles east of Reno under the pretext of speeding. They said they were subjected to illegal searches and told they wouldn't be released with their vehicles unless they forfeited their cash.

The lawsuits claimed the cash seizures were part of a pattern of stopping drivers for speeding as a pretext for drug busts in violation of the Constitution.

Nguyen was given a written warning for speeding but wasn't cited. As a condition of release, he signed a "property for safekeeping receipt," which indicated the money was abandoned or seized and not returnable. But the lawsuit says he did so only because Dove threatened to seize his vehicle unless he "got in his car and drove off and forgot this ever happened."

"He wasn't charged with anything. He had no drugs in his car. The pretext for stopping him was he was doing 78 in a 75," John Ohlson told KRNV-TV. "It's like Jesse James or Black Bart," he told AP in an interview last week.

The district attorney's statement said both men were stopped legally and that "every asset that was seized pursuant to those stops was lawfully seized."

Exhibit # 3: guilty until proven innocent: State of California seizes cash from "suspected" tax evaders with no evidence, no court action, no recourse. I have documented in detail how the jackboot of the State of California has pressed on the necks of thousands of law-abiding citizens whose only crime was moving out of California.

The State of California presumes anyone moving out of the state who still has a source of income in California--for example, a few dollars of interest earned on a bank account--owes California income tax on all their presumed income, even if they have filed income tax returns in another state.

If this isn't the acme of illegal seizure and denial of basic rights, i.e. presumed innocent until proven guilty, then what is?

Here is one reader's account of how this legal looting works: I wrote about this inWelcome to the United States of Orwell: Law-Abiding Taxpayers Are Treated as Criminals While the Real Criminals Go Free (March 27, 2012).

I received a letter last year that we owed the state of California's Franchise Tax Board $90,000 for taxes in the year 2008.We replied to the Franchise Tax board in a similar manner as RT stating that:

-- Did not reside in California in 2008
-- Did not file a State income tax return in California in 2008
-- Did not have any outstanding tax issues with California in 2008
-- Did no business in California in 2008
-- Owned no property in California in 2008


The CA Franchise Tax board responded by putting a lien on us in the state - fortunately, our banks and assets have no business in CA or I am certain our accounts would have been robbed as well.


After a great deal of uncertainty and angst, I found an accountant in CA who advised us that we needed to file a complete CA tax return for 2008 even though we did not owe any tax. We filed the return and received a response that we owed the state $625 to cover the State's collection fees. We paid the fee and within two weeks received a "refund" check for the $625.

On reflection, we felt as if we had been "held up" by some powerful gangsters and if it had not been for an honest tax accountant we would have suffered much financial damage.

In other words, honest taxpayers are reduced to begging the predatory state of California to return their own money. Meanwhile, the bagmen for the local government thieves, Wells Fargo and Bank of America, among others, get to keep the $100 fee they charged the taxpayer for stealing their money. If this isn't Orwellian, then what do you call it? "Legal"? If this is legal, legality has lost all meaning.

For more on the blatantly illegal seizures of cash from people who aren't even residents of California and who filed income tax returns in another state, please read:

Welcome to the Predatory State of California--Even If You Don't Live There (March 20, 2012)

The Predatory State of California, Part 2 (March 21, 2012)

Just as pernicious as outright looting is the growing dependence of local government on fines and related rip-offs. Correspondent Joel M. recently submitted this article which features New York City officials whining that the recent snow storm deprived them of sorely needed revenues from parking fines.
Costs Have Piled Up Along With the Snow of a Difficult Winter (

"If the winter was costly for individuals, it was even more so for municipalities. The snow triggered repeated suspensions of New York City’s alternate-side-of-the-street parking rules, delighting car owners but costing the city an average of $270,000 a day in potential fines, officials said. That added up to $4.3 million during a three-week stretch in February alone, money that would have gone to help pay for city services, including the fire and police forces, city officials said."

Everyone who believes local government is "here to fill potholes and help disadvantaged people" needs to wake up and ask what kind of government we have when due process has been replaced with "legal" looting. Is local government focused on serving citizens or on funding public employee pensions and healthcare benefits?

The erosion of ethics of those in government service is as pernicious as the rise of legal looting. Let's be honest, shall we? Those in local government tasked with collecting all these forms of legal looting are "just doing my job," but how many protest the process? How many public employee unions are outraged by the legal looting that fills the coffers of their pension funds?

For context, government employees constitute about 15% of the employed workforce in the U.S.: 22 million out of 142 million. Unlike the other 85%, their employer can legalize looting on their behalf.

Local government spending has soared for decades.

So has local government debt.

Promises were made to local government employees by craven, bought-and-paid-for politicos that cannot possibly be honored in a stagnating economy with widening wealth inequality. But rather than deal forthrightly with that reality, local government has pursued a strategy of legalizing looting.

From the point of view of the hapless tax donkeys and debt-serfs being looted, this strategy boils down to a stark threat: Pay Our Pensions Or We'll Throw You in Jail.

Here's the deal: government is supposed to serve the people, not the insiders. Please read the above news stories; can anyone claim that legalized looting is OK because the "ends" (public services) justify the "means" (legalized looting)? How many public employees care about where the money that funds their paycheck, pension and healthcare benefits comes from?

Maybe public employees should start caring about where the money is coming from, because taxation approved by elected officials or direct voter approval is one thing, and legalized looting is another. If you don't care that your pay/pension/benefits may be partly funded by legalized looting, perhaps you should start caring.

Remember that we (the general public) can't pull you over and "legally" steal your cash, nor can we order Wells Fargo to go into your bank account and "legally" steal your money without court review, evidence of wrongdoing or recourse. We can't award private collection agencies the powers reserved for representative government and rig the probation system into a cash cow that benefits us.

Please don't trot out the "good German" excuse: I only take orders. You're the ones who are pulling the levers of the legalized looting machine; us tax donkeys and debt-serfs are on the receiving end. Given that special interests own the state legislatures, the tax donkeys and debt-serfs have only three choices: opt out, move out or stop paying, and fill your modern debtors' prisons to the brim.


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Wed, 03/19/2014 - 18:54 | 4569885 I need Another Beer
I need Another Beer's picture    It will help U understand

Wed, 03/19/2014 - 19:07 | 4569921 Freddie
Freddie's picture

Mark Levin likes amnesty Rubio and amnesty Ryan.  No thanks.  Another dual citizen and NeoCon.

Wed, 03/19/2014 - 19:16 | 4569950 knukles
knukles's picture

My uberliberal state of CA, local, etc., employee buds, the very one and the same from the hippie dippie counter culture, now Progressive Democrats, big goobermint, laws and regulations as to how you shit, Preaching Freedom, Equality, Democracy, Social Justice, et fucking cetera, are the very one and same when confronted with the absolute appalling largesse of their salaries, health care, pensions and post retirement health care benefits sound exactly the same as the hedgies and private equity bazillionaires, "That's Mine I Worked (sic) for It and You Can't Take It Away From Me, Fuck You, Mr Taxpayer."

Hypocritical assholes
Plain and simple fucking theft which they view as an entitlement.

Fucking theft at the point of the governmental spear.

Wed, 03/19/2014 - 19:39 | 4569999 bcups
bcups's picture

Let's see how this works out for the leeches in Detroit. 

Wed, 03/19/2014 - 21:01 | 4570252 pods
pods's picture

Just another example that the police are not on your side.

They are on the side of the government.  

Sticking a gun in your face and saying sign this over to the police and the DA calls it lawful?

Gonna be ugly when this goes down.  Fucking blue uniforms are going to be burned with their shitstained undies.


Wed, 03/19/2014 - 22:09 | 4570551 spanish inquisition
spanish inquisition's picture

I believe the police chief of Detroit told citizens arm themnselves for their own safety in the last month or so.

Wed, 03/19/2014 - 20:17 | 4570115 Ifigenia
Ifigenia's picture

"It is pretty clear that this last sentence expresses Russia's view on the level of civilizational and cultural degradation the AngloZionist Empire has imposed upon the people of Europe and the USA. Furthermore, when Putin says that “destruction of traditional values from above not only leads to negative consequences for society, but is also essentially anti-democratic, since it is carried out on the basis of abstract, speculative ideas, contrary to the will of the majority” he is clearly stating that the AngoZionist Empire is not ruled by the people which live in it, but by minorities, special interest groups, behind the scenes lobbies and cabals who impose their warped agenda upon the rest of the people." in The Vineyard of the Saker

It is a dangerous path that the politicians of the West, controlled by a few, but rich, chosen people, want us to follow.

Wed, 03/19/2014 - 20:51 | 4570210 JLee2027
JLee2027's picture

Once a means of allowing convicted offenders to stay out of jail on the condition of good behavior, probation had now become a court-sanctioned tool for debt collection.

Same with child support. Pay or go to jail. It's all against the Constitution (indentured servitude is illegal per the 13th Amendment) You have to out-determine the bastards, even they have limited resources. Fack them!

Wed, 03/19/2014 - 20:18 | 4570117 Real Estate Geek
Real Estate Geek's picture

+1 just for the (sic), which made me snort with laughter!

Wed, 03/19/2014 - 21:04 | 4570268 Nostradumbass
Nostradumbass's picture

So what about the worker in a public agency who is skilled in a trade, sees to it that the water/power etc. are delivered to your door, pays 14% of his/her gross pay into a pension system for decades and expects to receive the pension he/she signed up for? Fuck off?

Not all are leeches...

Wed, 03/19/2014 - 21:10 | 4570288 FredFlintstone
FredFlintstone's picture

That would be inhumane. Just convert them to the Social Security system and then make them work 10 more years.

Wed, 03/19/2014 - 21:26 | 4570360 Nostradumbass
Nostradumbass's picture

Social Security is an anti-poverty program, not a retirement system. 

Wed, 03/19/2014 - 21:54 | 4570488 FredFlintstone
FredFlintstone's picture

Yep, we don't want the retired public servant living in poverty, do we?

Wed, 03/19/2014 - 22:17 | 4570581 Raymond K Hessel
Raymond K Hessel's picture

I don't mind pensions.  What I mind is the retirement age being so low.  No one should retire at 45 with money that was sourced from taxes.  

And the SS program is a joke.  It should be repealed.

Thu, 03/20/2014 - 03:05 | 4571391 Canoe Driver
Canoe Driver's picture

Then why does Steve Wynn collect it, retard?

Wed, 03/19/2014 - 23:25 | 4570879 toady
toady's picture

Agreed. I dislike this version of divide-n-conqure more than most. Public vs private employment just pits two groups of poor people against each other. These groups would be better off paying attention to the man behind the curtain.

Thu, 03/20/2014 - 03:04 | 4571389 Canoe Driver
Canoe Driver's picture

Sorry, but all ARE leeches, even though some may not understand why.  If the money you were planning to pull out was equal to the 14% plus a reasonable rate of growth, then it would still be too much because your salary was unreasonably high. But at least it would be your money. As it stands, it's not.

Wed, 03/19/2014 - 21:41 | 4570296 Nostradumbass
Nostradumbass's picture

You are four years old. Your mother crosses the US-Mexico border illegally with you and your sister and you are raised in a suburb in southern California. You attend public school through high school and your English is perfect. You had no say in your being here illegally and in fact, did not know until you were in high school.

You cannot get work legally though you are a bright, honest, caring young man of 26.

Fuck off?

True story. I know this person.

Wed, 03/19/2014 - 22:20 | 4570597 Raymond K Hessel
Raymond K Hessel's picture

The problem of immigration is that there are so many benefits being paid for by taxes and debt (future taxes) that people feel not paying in to the system is wrong.  

If there were a way to square that circle, more people would be for immigration, not against it.


Then there's that visa program that MSFT and Silicon Valley are pushing.  That's complete shipping jobs overseas.  That needs to stop STAT.

Wed, 03/19/2014 - 22:22 | 4570610 mofreedom
mofreedom's picture

Then his government owes us for the edu, meds and ebt or we come and get it.

Thu, 03/20/2014 - 03:08 | 4571397 Canoe Driver
Canoe Driver's picture

He should be out of luck, and should blame his mother for it. Also, he should go to Spain and marry an EU citizen. That's the way it works, genius.

Thu, 03/20/2014 - 08:57 | 4571797 Nostradumbass
Nostradumbass's picture


He'll stay here in the only country and culture he has ever known. He'll use fake documents to drive an automobile, do what he can to find employment and hope for someday when intelligence leads the people to let him become a tax paying citizen. The culprits are business and government - not him.

You should actually meet someone like him before you harden your heart and close your mind - I once thought like you...

Wed, 03/19/2014 - 22:18 | 4570588 mofreedom
mofreedom's picture

Neither the amnesty part nor the bohnor-loving part Levin like so stop with the straw man.

Wed, 03/19/2014 - 22:53 | 4570749 Balanced Integer
Balanced Integer's picture

Lies and bullshit. If you ever listened to his show, you'd hear how he gives a hard time to themb oth over amnesty. Ryan in particular about the so called "bipartisan budget deal."

Wed, 03/19/2014 - 23:14 | 4570833 chemystical
chemystical's picture

I doubt that he's a dual citizen (unlike so many of his wormy brethren), but the ADL, AIPAC, etc, all know what you meant by that :)

Maybe some day we'll be free to stop using code words like that.

He's the same false dichotomy as (D):(R).  No different than controlled opposition, or the idiots who pat themselves on the back and think that calling themselves (I) means they get to choose either (D) or (R).

"Curiously" Levin never mentions his over-represented co-religionists as being amongst the problems.  No one with air time does.  Them thar dang Mooslims, however, well, they are the real problem and those with air time never fail to remind you of that "fact".

Wed, 03/19/2014 - 20:33 | 4569957 Surging Chaos
Surging Chaos's picture

You do realize that Mark Levin is a dyed-in-the-wool neocon, right?

Once you peel the constitutionalist veneer off of him, you reveal Levin for what he truly is: another statist talk show host.

EDIT: Ah yes, here come the downvotes. Let's see if those red arrows come out of the woodwork.

Wed, 03/19/2014 - 20:39 | 4570182 Greenskeeper_Carl
Greenskeeper_Carl's picture

Surprised this got the red arrows, I wouldn't have figured there would be a bunch of mark levin fans on here. I used to like what those people said until I realized a couple years ago that they were full of shit. They were A-OK with all this warfare, patriot act, extraordinary rendition, domestic spying, when it was done by bush. It's only now that it's a democrat doing it that it becomes illegal and immoral, and they suddenly remember the constitution after not giving a shit for the last 8 years. You are right, it is only a veneer of constitutionalism. A consistent person who actually cared about Te constitution and the immorality of the police state would have been speaking up about this long before Obama moved into the White House. Mark levin is full of shit

Wed, 03/19/2014 - 21:02 | 4570262 pods
pods's picture

They are merely the opposite side of the same coin.

Pukes, all of them.


Wed, 03/19/2014 - 21:22 | 4570348 Greenskeeper_Carl
Greenskeeper_Carl's picture

I guess I should be surprised there are a bunch of mark levin fans on here, now that I think about it. When myself and a couple others dared to question the wisdom of Sarah Palin a couple weeks ago we were flooded with red arrows. I've been reading this site for a couple years, but only been participating in the discussions for a few months now, but I have noticed a lot more of the neo con palin/levin types here lately.

Wed, 03/19/2014 - 23:06 | 4570800 pods
pods's picture

Wait until the Rep primaries.  I usually diappear for a while then when the next non-savior is hoisted upon us.  RP excluded there are maybe 3 who actually are constitutionalists. (other two are not elected and local guys here)

The red green thing is part popularity contest.  Shoot for an even amount and you know you are getting somewhere. Piss off enough and that is a good thing.


Wed, 03/19/2014 - 23:37 | 4570945 Greenskeeper_Carl
Greenskeeper_Carl's picture

Haha there's the red arrows. Not trying to win any popularity contests. Id just end every post with 'palin 2016', probably get nothing but greens. And I meant to say "I SHOULD NOT be surprised about the neo con" in the above post. And ya those primaries should get entertaining on here. Although the red/blue debate does get quite tiresome. I don't mind the red arrows, but I just wish the down voters would take a minute and explain to me how it is that what I said in the above posts was wrong. How exactly are mark levin or Sarah palin or the rest of the red team pretenders NOT full of shit?

Wed, 03/19/2014 - 23:36 | 4570847 sylviasays
sylviasays's picture

and many of us have noticed a lot of senile old Palin haters and neo-Marxist fascist pigs lately here too!

Wed, 03/19/2014 - 22:38 | 4570652 Tim_
Tim_'s picture

Mark Levin is a jew.

Mark Levin Net Worth

"Levin was born on September 21, 1957 in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania to a Jewish family."

Mark Levin - Biography

"Polar opposite of fellow Jewish-American, Alan Colmes."

Wed, 03/19/2014 - 23:04 | 4570790 Balanced Integer
Balanced Integer's picture

Oh noes!! NOT A JOOOOOO!?!?1?



What is it you people have against every Jew? Are you all so certain that they are all a part of the Great Jooish Conspiracy, to strip you of your wealth and liberties, to force-circumcise your foreskins and rape your daughters anally with candelabras?

Come to think of it, I'm not sure many of you can even spell "conspiracy" without spellcheck.

Wed, 03/19/2014 - 23:23 | 4570863 chemystical
chemystical's picture

"What is it you people have against every Jew?"

Oy the irony.  "You people"?  No generalizing there, eh?

"...every Jew"?  Might want to brush up on your reading skills (while you comment on someone's spelling skills.

Otoh, if only 2% of the US population wore polka dot orange shoes and purple striped ties, but 1/3 of the folks you see on the boob tube were so attired, and if 1/3 of the folks who are kicking you in the nuts and picking your pocket and corrupting the minds and souls of you and your children were so attired...then you'd call that a coincidence, right?  Uh huh.  I call it a cohencidence.

Wed, 03/19/2014 - 20:25 | 4570143 rubiconsolutions
rubiconsolutions's picture

Mark Levin? He's a fascist Irving Kristol / Leo Strauss neoconservative who speaks about liberty but doesn't know the first thing about it. His book, "The Liberty Amendments" is the most atrocious piece of garbage ever written. He has no problem continuing the practice of stealing by way of direct taxation, just wants it "capped at 15%." Yeah, like asking a rapist to just stick it in part of the way.

Wed, 03/19/2014 - 23:30 | 4570902 sylviasays
sylviasays's picture

neo-Marxist fascist pigs are quick to attack and label anyone whom they disagree with 

Wed, 03/19/2014 - 19:00 | 4569901 RonBurgundy
RonBurgundy's picture

Why should pensions come behind speculative actions like bonds? Pensions are contractual--deferred compensation. To abrogate them wholesale is to attack the rule of law. Beyond that its exactly the plan of the banksters. They'll always get theirs. They'll just get you to agree first that the middle class has to be put out of existence, because its "necessary."

Wed, 03/19/2014 - 19:19 | 4569954 steelhead23
steelhead23's picture

Whether bondholders or pensioners have stronger claims to municipal assets is being discussed in the Detroit bankruptcy case.  The argument here is different.  Mr. Smith is arguing that abusing individuals, be it outright looting, or debtors prison, is an afront to our liberty.  I think he's right.  What say you?

I tend to think that bondholders and pensioners have equal claims and Detroits assets should be divied up that way - but, like you, I doubt it will work out that way.

Wed, 03/19/2014 - 19:27 | 4569968 centerline
centerline's picture

Get real.  You know how it works.  Everyone except the insiders are unsecured creditors.  Last in line.  Wont collect.  End of story.  

If you don't know the names of the players on a first name basis - guess what?  Your an outsider.

Laughable to think that future generations will pay for anything.  It is coming much faster than that.

Wed, 03/19/2014 - 19:45 | 4570017 RonBurgundy
RonBurgundy's picture

true dat. so let the grey hairs have their gruel, and give the finger to the insiders at least once. Again, the threat here for the Gummint is that the hedge funds invested other pensions in these bonds at some level. 

Wed, 03/19/2014 - 20:48 | 4570202 Greenskeeper_Carl
Greenskeeper_Carl's picture

"Hedge funds invested other pensions in these bonds"
You know they did. It is all one big circle jerk, with all the local govts invested in each others garbage bonds. Eventually the real value of these bonds will be laid bare, and it will be a fraction of face value. Once the default train starts rolling nothing is stopping it. Unless the next round of QE starts gobbling up muni bonds....

Wed, 03/19/2014 - 22:11 | 4570560 centerline
centerline's picture

Once that wave really hits there will be nothing to stop it. And dont think for a moment the political class doesn't know it.  The entire financial system is rigged to blow (e.g. counterparty exposure).

Wed, 03/19/2014 - 19:28 | 4569971 Anusocracy
Anusocracy's picture

Government is the primary affront to our liberty.

Wed, 03/19/2014 - 20:43 | 4570192 Accounting101
Accounting101's picture

So it's not the Oligarchs? I thought they controlled the government.

Wed, 03/19/2014 - 19:50 | 4570030 RonBurgundy
RonBurgundy's picture

Not really, because no one is going to get "anything" as you know. The only people in the real term who are going to pay for the ponzi are pensioners and the middle class--for everyone else, well, only TPTB get deferred compensation, as every "resolution" of insolvency has demonstrated. Greece. Cyprus. AIG. Dont fall for the lie

Thu, 03/20/2014 - 19:28 | 4574863 MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

These pensioners, are they really middle-class? Or will those pensions rob the middle class and make their recipients massively rich?
Pension is a ponzi. I wouldn't agree to it in the first place knowing a) my wages aren't paid until later in life and may never be paid and/or b) my pension can be paid only by robbery of another

Wed, 03/19/2014 - 20:10 | 4570089 TheReplacement
TheReplacement's picture

Fine.  Print them some dollars (devalue the dollar hugely, say to 0) and pay them off.  That is what they agreed to.  We never agreed that they could take my house because if they aren't willing to accept less and if the dollar doesn't go to 0 then that is what is going to have to happen - you and your pals coming with guns to take my house. 

What part of "there isn't enough money" don't you understand?


EDIT:  NVM, you got me.

Wed, 03/19/2014 - 20:13 | 4570092 A Nanny Moose
A Nanny Moose's picture

Rule of Law was broken by stealing from the productive and unborn, in order to give to the unproductive, and when the idea of 8% growth rates were fraudulently foisted upon pensioners. You cannot paint picture of ethical behavior, when funding is the result of theft, and growth claims were outright fraudulent.

Rule of Law is irrelevant when juxtaposed to nobody having any money.

Wed, 03/19/2014 - 20:41 | 4570187 Accounting101
Accounting101's picture

Will you grow up. This productive-unproductive immature crap needs to stop. Any first grade teacher in any public school throughout this country works harder and produces more than your worthless ass could produce in 10 lifetimes. Loser!

Wed, 03/19/2014 - 22:26 | 4570632 Raymond K Hessel
Raymond K Hessel's picture

I don't agree with that at all.  Any productive activity like education can and should be privatized.  There's no fundamental need or requirement for education to be sourced within government.

Before you start with "poor people getting screwed out of an education", churches have done a great job in providing education for parents in neighborhoods where the schools are more gladiator academy than center of learning.  These parents are poor people but their kids get the education not from the local public school but, in most cases, from the local catholic school.

Schools don't have to be public schools.  

Wed, 03/19/2014 - 23:45 | 4570970 chemystical
chemystical's picture

"Schools don't have to be public schools."

They do when this is the list of American Federation of Teachers past and present:

Albert Shanker

Charles Cogen

David Selden

Sandra Feldman

Randi Weingarten

Where have I seen those names before?  Oh, yeah, Irving's Bar Mitvah.

Speaking of's what she had to say about very recent trip to Kiev:

"It’s always been a part of who we are,” said Weingarten. “I decided it was important enough to go, and the most important thing I’ve learned during this trip is that the Russian propaganda about how the Ukrainian government is fragile and destabilizing is totally and completely wrong.”

Nope, no agenda there.


Thu, 03/20/2014 - 21:47 | 4574847 MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

"churches have done a great job in providing education for parents in neighborhoods"
What? No they haven't.
Churches are nasty, demonic things, teaching nonsense like creationism, or saying abortion is murder (it isn't).
Church is a thousand times worse than public school.

Thu, 03/20/2014 - 19:25 | 4574844 MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

No, they really don't. A lot of them cheat & foster cheating, lie, and will happily mistreat the people they work with or for.

Mon, 03/24/2014 - 20:40 | 4574798 MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

It's not the rule of law to promise payment to someone from a robbery.
If you don't have it you default, as in bankruptcy, instead of paying.
To rob another person to make the payment is the actual breaking of rule of law.

In fact only a Jon Corzine could -1 me for such an obvious lawful statement.

Wed, 03/19/2014 - 19:17 | 4569902 Deathrips
Deathrips's picture

Crack Addicts...need more crack. Since other peoples currency is more addictive than long till they start mainlining it?

CALPERS is insolvent too.



Edit: Fiat Junkie serial junker on the loose!!! that you?

Wed, 03/19/2014 - 19:01 | 4569907 A Lunatic
A Lunatic's picture

Every time we spend a dollar we are looted. We loot ourselves.......

Wed, 03/19/2014 - 19:02 | 4569911 The_Prisoner
The_Prisoner's picture

The death throes of the Empire.

Wed, 03/19/2014 - 22:41 | 4570705 zionhead
zionhead's picture

A Story I want to share, ... a friend was in Bulgarian when it 'collapsed' in the 1980's  ( Russia lost Bulgaria ).

The first week of the collapse the "COPS" went to door-to-door to "INVENTORY" the wealth, so they would "KNOW WHO TO PROTECT".

Second week, they went door to door to disarm the populace.

Third week, they went door to door, to take all the 'wealth'.

The cops in Bulgaria, post Russia collapse knew they had to grab everything from the 'little people' because there was no more MANNA coming from Russia.

Same now, once the local cops across AMERIKKKA understand that its EVERY COP FOR HIMSELF, then all you little people are FREE SHOPPING for the Cops.


Message? Bury your gold/guns OFF your property, where the cop's can't find your WEALTH on the first round of confiscation.


Wed, 03/19/2014 - 19:04 | 4569917 honestann
honestann's picture

Governments have no valid authority to promise pensions in the first place (or even pay salaries for that matter).  So the whole premise and argument is pointless.

Wed, 03/19/2014 - 21:00 | 4570222 zionhead
zionhead's picture

Public Unions robbed Private Unions long ago ... now that private loot is gone, they're coming to your home

30+ years ago the private pensions in america were ROBBED and nobody said shit, and certainly 'gubmint' didn't come the rescue,

[ Read the book "america what went wrong", Barlette&Steele, 1988?, the entire book deals with theft of private pensions. ]


I long predicted 'they' would come for the public pensions, and again 'yawn' I don't fucking care,...

Public pensions were never sustainable.

[ Most public pensions have the CASH value of $5M or more in annuity value. A low level GUBMINT grunt has a better retirement than a millionaire. ]

Private pension's were funded with CASH, but BUFFET long ago invented the 'takeover' and replaced pension cash with IOU's then gutted companys, and made BRK the #1 stock in america.


Fuck CALPERS, fuck the GUBMINT, and all those who worked for the gubmint fucking citizens and thought they were going to get gold collar pensions, now they're fucked.

The only pensions safe are FEDERAL, that are tied to INFINITE free FIAT. But even that source of FIAT is limited, eventually the USD becomes a nation of billionaires, ... so what.


Madoff said it best "USA IS  A PONZI"

Will the GUBMINT rob you to make their pensions WHOLE? FUCK YES, this is what happened in Russia satellites when Russia collapsed in the late 1980's, the governments had a free-for-all in collecting from the peasants. Thus when the local gubmint goes MAD, you know the USA is collapsing.


Wed, 03/19/2014 - 19:06 | 4569926 neidermeyer
neidermeyer's picture

My city APOPKA FL illegally ran red light cameras for 6 years ,,, the "fines" were labeled as being "code enforcement" and not "traffic enforcement" to keep the courts out of the looting system ... the state of FL found the scam to be illegal but they're still running it pending an appeal to the state supreme court ... About a year and a half ago they outlawed on-street parking with no public notice other than a closed meeting and a published notice in one of those papers that publish only legal notices...they did it by replacing the part of the code which had restrictions on work trailers and redefining all motor vehicles as trailers (I SHIT YOU NOT ... MY Mercedes is "defined" as a LAWN SERVICE TRAILER!!!) ,,  this is not my country.

Wed, 03/19/2014 - 19:23 | 4569959 Shad_ow
Shad_ow's picture

I don't know about the rest of the country but those "speed cameras" are prevalent here in The South.  The company installs and maintains them with a 60/40 split on the proceeds with the local gestapo.  Rarely can one get relief from an unjustified fine in court.  The whole thing is a scam to prop up bankrupt municipalities.  I have not been fined yet but I proudly give the camera "the finger" each time I pass under one.

Wed, 03/19/2014 - 20:13 | 4570102 TheReplacement
TheReplacement's picture

It's not that big of a town.  Surely you all know or can find out who did that and take corrective action.  At the least, there should be protesting in front of their homes.  Make them feel it.  Take away their quality of life when they are at work and at home.  Make it miserable.  Do something besides complain.

Wed, 03/19/2014 - 19:11 | 4569940 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Nothing but highwaymen...

Wed, 03/19/2014 - 19:14 | 4569946 notadouche
notadouche's picture

In the state I currently reside, the amount of my state refund, or overpayment of taxes, from the prior year is counted as revenue for the current year.  My overpayment of taxes is allowed to be counted as taxable revenue next year.  That's robbery in my view.

Wed, 03/19/2014 - 20:14 | 4570105 TheReplacement
TheReplacement's picture

Stop overpaying - have to pay in at the end of each year.  The longer the cash is in your hand the longer you can earn 0%.

Wed, 03/19/2014 - 20:50 | 4570203 yellowsub
yellowsub's picture

Let's get real here, most people over pay because they can't save to pay it at the end of the year.  Do you know how often I hear people who can only make a big purchase when they get their tax refunds or even have that spent before actually getting it.   I made a modest salary a few years ago and withheld a bit too much and got a shock at what I owed for federal.  Knowing most people they couldn't even pay their state...  

Wed, 03/19/2014 - 22:58 | 4570767 notadouche
notadouche's picture

Better safe than sorry.  I could pay but would rather not owe the government a single dime at any time.  More afraid to owe the governmnt than a shylock.  The vig and penalties for owing the government appear to be much more onerous and severe than owing the Soprano crew.

Wed, 03/19/2014 - 21:28 | 4570382 Dr. Gonzo
Dr. Gonzo's picture

My state too. Fucking ridiculous that they get a cut of your tax refund. 

Wed, 03/19/2014 - 19:15 | 4569948 Winston Churchill
Winston Churchill's picture

No one should have any doubt about who will own their 401k's in due course.

The same goes for stawks .and cash in the bank.

They will change the rules,they own the game.

Wed, 03/19/2014 - 20:14 | 4570104 Seize Mars
Seize Mars's picture


You are correct about this. It's too good for them to pass up. It is inevitable. So the lesson to learn here is:

1. Do not have a 401(k) or IRA. Liquidate them and pay the tax penalty. When you do this, you will have a light-bulb moment in which you realize that you never "owned" most of the money. They were "allowing" you to think you did.

2. Do not invest in stocks. For one, they are drastically more risky than it looks like. More importantly, we are living in the "Age of Corzine," in which some potentate will simply steal your shit and there is nothing done about it. If you want to play that game then I don't know what to say. Get out while you can.

3. Cash in the bank will be stolen also, as demonstrated in the Cyprus episode. They'll just fucking steal it outright. Don't leave it there.

Get out of paper. Get out now.

Wed, 03/19/2014 - 22:30 | 4570655 Raymond K Hessel
Raymond K Hessel's picture

Your first point is spot on.  

It's the biggest lesson I got from Wolf of Wall Street.  Do whatever it takes to keep them in the market.  Never sell.  Never let them sell.  That was the biggest thing, because once selling starts, all those guys get wiped out.

The 401k is the biggest trap of them all.  It's not a pension and not's in your control.  You have no one fighting for you should anyone try to take it.

I agree 100% with Seize Mars.

Wed, 03/19/2014 - 19:17 | 4569951 centerline
centerline's picture

Hey CHS- check out the "border zone" if you dont already know about it.  Inside of 100 miles or so, it is "Constitution does not apply" for your own good of course.

The cash grab is SOP in south Florida.  Have this on solid reporting right from a friend who has a cop in the family.

Expect "legalized" theft to become more of the norm here for the next few years leading up to our collapse.  My area (Central Florida) has already been busted for tinkering with red light timing to get more ticket revenue.  That, my friend, is just the tip of the iceberg.

Wed, 03/19/2014 - 20:31 | 4570163 cynicalskeptic
cynicalskeptic's picture

Have seen local cops sit by the OPEN control box for traffic lights at an intersection and quick switch to red........ Fkin bastards.

Wed, 03/19/2014 - 21:02 | 4570257 Greenskeeper_Carl
Greenskeeper_Carl's picture

Heard about that on the news, on the radio near Orlando. Those fuckers shaved 3/8ths of a second off the time the lights stayed yellow the same day they put in cameras. They sent a ticket to the wrong guy, who called them out in court with a judge that apparently at least gives lip service to what is constitutional, and he threw the ticket out, and ordered whatever city it was in to expunge the records of everyone who had gotten a ticket at that intersection, I believe they were trying to get all the money paid in fines back as well. These same assholes have gotten out of control with toll roads. It costs 8.75 to drive from the east coast through Orlando to Ocala, 2 hour drive. There is no way around the rolls either unless you want a 2 hour drive to take 3, which costs me way more since my truck gets about 15 mpg.

Wed, 03/19/2014 - 22:18 | 4570587 centerline
centerline's picture

+1.  Just the tip of the iceberg too.  The whole system is gaming itself for self-preservation and getting more desperate each day.  Ironic that everyone gets screwed in the process.  A regular Catch-22.

Wed, 03/19/2014 - 19:25 | 4569961 Surging Chaos
Surging Chaos's picture

The good news is that local and state governments are going to have to face the music sooner rather than later. No central bank at the state or local level to ctrl+P out of their mess.

Wed, 03/19/2014 - 19:32 | 4569978 centerline
centerline's picture

Just how Uncle Sammy wants it.  Whose your daddy?

Want those highway funds?  Grab the ankles and hold on tight.

How 'bout those education dollars?  Hmmm... gonna need some favors there.


Get the drift?  The process of centralization is not reversible.  It continues until collapse.  Period.  There is no other way out.  History rhymes.


Oh, and if you think current events are fun... just imagine the epic beatdown should a state choose to leave the union.  Holy shit.

Wed, 03/19/2014 - 20:03 | 4570074 UselessEater
Wed, 03/19/2014 - 19:33 | 4569982 FreeMktFisherMN
FreeMktFisherMN's picture

How does government 'serve the people' when by definition it is an organized system of theft and coercion?

Wed, 03/19/2014 - 20:19 | 4570124 TheReplacement
TheReplacement's picture

Suppose you play cards with your friends.  There are rules that govern how you play.  Is that theft and coercion?  Government by consent is not the same as government by coercion and theft.  They are not necessarily mutually exclusive but they are not the same. 

Suppose there was no government.  How would you and your neighbors get along and get things done?  There would be some sort of government in the process. 

It's really just a matter, not of what they will do to you, but what you will allow them to do to you.

Wed, 03/19/2014 - 20:56 | 4570232 FredFlintstone
FredFlintstone's picture

Did you read the article before commenting? Things have changed over the decades in good old America. Sure there has always been corruption in bug cities, but to have the public servants in Mayberry RFD rip you off is too much.

Thu, 03/20/2014 - 18:32 | 4574662 MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

Your analogy is completely invalid.
Make it a neighborhood bully who demands a cut from every winning of every hand, and if you don't pay, kidnaps you and puts you in a box with bars: that's the proper analogy.
This bully never helps, never is nice, always lies and no matter what you do, you get nothing of value in return from this bully.
That's the proper analogy.
"what you will allow"
You mean before people get more armed than the cops and bully them back one shell at a time? Is that what you mean by "allow" because they'll execute those who defy them? They'll shoot your children in the face, you know that, right?

Wed, 03/19/2014 - 19:41 | 4570006 ebworthen
ebworthen's picture

And now you know why police forces are being militarized.

State/Corporate merger facism by any other name.

Wed, 03/19/2014 - 19:43 | 4570011 delivered
delivered's picture

Here's my real life experience from San Diego. Went to dinner in a popular downtown location over the New Year. Same weekend as a bowl game was in town. Parked in a lot that was over flowing but finally found a space. Came back to watch a member of the law enforcement writing tickets for having my left wheel parked just on (not over or outside) the parking spot line (i.e., technically being out of the space). What really had happended is that one car down the way parked well outside their line which triggered a chain reaction with all other cars having to adjust their parking to provide enough space to get in and out. Mind you the lot is too small (city problem/issue), most spaces undersized (city problem/issue), and that it was a big PR weekend in SD for bowl games with great weather. No matter, the ticker was given to me and probably 30 to 50 other "guests".

We took a picture and disputed the ticket (with the picture). About a week later, we received a letter from the City of San Diego saying FY/FO and pay the fine ($50 as the ticket price was set at a level that nobody is going to fight as it would be a waste of time). We complained to the manager of the restaurant who indicated that this was a problem and that they would look into. No help of course as the manager was full of BS. 

Can't imagine how the out of town guests felt from Arizona who I'm sure received more than a few tickets. And this is how the City of San Diego thinks, operates, and "markets" the community to potential customers. Are you FKM! From a city that had the most embarassing mayor in power in 2013! I guess they need the ticket fees to help payoff his sexual harrassment legal claims which continue to mount. Of course, SD not only also has a huge unfunded pension problem but the community just learned it has about a $4 billion tab coming down on water/drain/sewer systems. 

In case your wondering, the lot is located right next to the aircraft carrier Midway museum and the restaurant close by. So park at your own risk in this lot (which is basically covered by meters as well) if you are in San Diego and for that matter, all lots in and around downtown. And BTW, the reference to the state of California is spot on as this state is grabbing money from just about every source you can think of and through whatever means it wants.

As for my family, our days are numbered as we'll be more than happy to sell our overpriced home to some stupid money and exit the state in an orderly and well planned fashion. And a great point from the above article is how to protect your money when you do leave. No bank accounts with BOA, WFB, or the other nationals. Just all cash, PMs, and accounts with banks in a new state that does not have operations in California. Between California's business friendly culture (not!) and taxing monster in Sacramento, it's no wonder the only people that will be left in the state are either the "entitled" crowd living off Uncle Obama in Washington and Aunt Brown in Sacramento or the 1% living in SF, SV, and the beach front communities that simply have bought their way out of this nightmare. 

Wed, 03/19/2014 - 20:35 | 4570173 cynicalskeptic
cynicalskeptic's picture

A few local cities and towns have KILLED local shopping by their overeager ticketing policies.  Short sighted morons are all too willing to write up EXPENSIVE parking tickets to feed municipal coffers while killing local businesses with these policies.  I know more than a few people who will NEVER go into an adjacent community for just this reason.


Wed, 03/19/2014 - 19:51 | 4570028 22winmag
22winmag's picture

Once the shooting starts it may snowball into a firestorm the world has never seen.


Forget about the federal thugs, will somebody please open fire on these thinly disguised criminals that call themselves public servants, aldermen, city councilors, judges, prosecutors, police, corrections officers, tax collectors. and so on??

Wed, 03/19/2014 - 20:06 | 4570082 centerline
centerline's picture

Right or wrong that day is coming.  And alot of really good people are going to wind up getting hurt.  Damn shame that human nature has to lead us to the same places over and over again.

Wed, 03/19/2014 - 19:51 | 4570035 logicalman
logicalman's picture

The other thing here is bureaucracy.

Once a bureaucrat makes a new rule, he's out of a job, unless he can come up with a new one.

Hmmm.... wonder why, given the number of bureaucrats, there are so many stupid and insane statutes.

Government is THE PROBLEM.

Wed, 03/19/2014 - 20:02 | 4570039 Deathrips
Deathrips's picture



I was parked on Kettner & Broadway about a year ago. Came out to find a 35$ parking ticket. How was this so...?it was only 1130 and I paid and displayed my ticket in the dash for expiration at 12:03. I disputed it and sent copies of the ticket marked like 1134 and a copy of my ticket paid through 1203. THey sent me back the 35$ fine with a 15$ assesment for the dispute. 50$. Its some bullshit.

What victim do they collect fines for? The state? That is not a victim.....thats an employee of the people, supposedly. For instance a speeding ticket fine, should go to the family of people impacted by speeding. Does it? goes to the state, which is not a victim.

They protect and serve the state and FED.


I have another one. On labor day weekend in Sequoia Park. There were some rowdy college students that showed up at our swimming hole with a bunch of beers etc making a raucous. We were all sunned and swimmed we hiked back up to the truck and took off. Within 500 feet of leaving the park the federal agent pulled me over. Saying that they had seen my truck at the swimming hole where people were getting all drunk.  After finding that none of us was drinking or doing anything wrong. I received a ticket for tire over the double yellow line, and seat belt ticket. Both of which were false. The real kicker was that this happened in front of my girl and my friend and his wife. All sober all upstanding. The officer said "im gonna cut you a break this time and not write you up for drinking and driving" ????? We were all partied out from the day before....not a drop. After he says he did us a favor he hands me a 550$ ticket? Thats doing me a With reporting instructions to Fresno....150 miles away and 6 hours from San Diego 6 weeks later. My truck did not cross over the yellow line..and I took off my seatbelt to get my registration out of the glove box..after pulled over.

I ended up paying it rather than going to fresno and going to trial..cause it would have cost way more than 550 to defend. Thats what they were counting on. HORSE SHIT.


Feel your pain.



Thu, 03/20/2014 - 16:53 | 4574341 MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

Yup. I had enough. I refuse to pay and I stopped driving. Can't pull me over to take the car I don't have.

Wed, 03/19/2014 - 19:53 | 4570041 Clycntct
Clycntct's picture

I am a little slow upstairs.

Is this a pattern I'm seeing?

What you say The brain damage you seem to function under or are you referring to the fcked up corrupt country we live in.

The country that bases it's entirety on the fraud of it's products accounting system the fed dooliar.

Wed, 03/19/2014 - 19:58 | 4570048 Waterfallsparkles
Waterfallsparkles's picture

In Baltimore County Maryland they fine Landlords if their Tenants leave the lids off their Trash Cans  $250. plus.  They then put the fine on your Tax Bill so if you do not pay it they sell your property at the Tax Sale.  It is such a good revenue source they drive up and down the alleys right before the trash is picked up just to ticket anyone with too much trash that the lid does not fit on.  And after the trash is picked up and the lid is on the ground and not on the trash can.

The worst part is that it is a Criminal violation and you can be put in Jail for your Tenant not putting the lid on their Trash Can.  The problem I have with it is that you as the Landlord did nothing wrong.  You were not the one that left the lid off the trash can.  I cannot see why you should be held responsible for the actions of another.  In as much as we may want to have total control over our Tenants actions we do not.  The Law does not give us the ability to take action against the Tenant for their behavior.

Very much like if you rent a Car and get a speeding ticket the Car company would be liable and a lein could be put against the vehicle and subject it to being sold at auction to pay the fine.

Wed, 03/19/2014 - 20:37 | 4570177 cynicalskeptic
cynicalskeptic's picture

One more reason not to be a landlord.

Thu, 03/20/2014 - 16:51 | 4574331 MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

it's the police-state that's a problem. Be something other than a landlord & they'll find something else to fine you for.

Wed, 03/19/2014 - 20:03 | 4570076 I Write Code
I Write Code's picture

About forty years ago I moved out of the little township of Westboro, MA and a year later they were sending me nastygrams that I owned them $17 for auto registration or something and threatened to tell the State of Kalifornia who would enforce for them.  I pointed out that I'd been gone since before my current registration lapsed, but I think I sent them a dollar to spend on birch beer so they could get over it.  I guess there is nothing new under the sun.

Los Angeles parking tickets are run by some Xerox subsidiary, the local free press (and maybe the LA Slimes too, I dunno) ran some exposes on them, you can get a totally bogus ticket and, although officially there are channels of appeal, generally the channels of appeal just tell you to FO.  And don't even look at what happens if you get towed.

Wed, 03/19/2014 - 20:03 | 4570078 Deathrips
Deathrips's picture

Fucking Extorting Pieces of DOG SHIT!!!!!



Wed, 03/19/2014 - 20:15 | 4570107 Stuck on Zero
Stuck on Zero's picture

In the interest of equality all fines and assessments by the state should be in proportion to ones income.  That's the way it's done in Sweden. Let Jamie Dimon pay $25M for a traffic violation.


Wed, 03/19/2014 - 20:18 | 4570122 Drifter
Drifter's picture

So how's that revolution coming along?

Thu, 03/20/2014 - 16:32 | 4574266 MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

I'm sure nearly-lethal spitballs, angry signs and vicious tweets are at the ready to overthrow this horrifying tyranny.

Wed, 03/19/2014 - 20:34 | 4570172 Accounting101
Accounting101's picture

That settles it. Hugh-Smith has solved the old age mystery. The chicken came before the egg. Public sector workers must bury all their salary in their backyards. They must never, ever buy private sector product, because that would mean the egg could come first.

What a bunch of shit! A incomprehensible, overly long diatribe against teachers, policemen,firemen, librarians and other workers who dared to defer salary so they may have something upon retirement. Smith is advocating stealing, and he does it by trying to convince the rest of us that our fellow middle class workers are taking our money.

The sanctity of the contract only applies to Smith's Oligarch buddies at Goldman.

Wed, 03/19/2014 - 21:14 | 4570301 Uncle Remus
Uncle Remus's picture

That which cannot be paid, won't be.

Wed, 03/19/2014 - 21:48 | 4570466 WTF_247
WTF_247's picture

Defer what???  Most are paid far beyond what the same civilan job pays AND on top of that they get a pension.  Defer 5% to get 300% match??  Most public sector employees pay very little of the actual cost of the pension.

If you think otherwise put up some ACTUAL NUMBERS showing what employee puts in vs what they get out.

Wed, 03/19/2014 - 20:44 | 4570194 Smiley
Smiley's picture

People are stupid; they'll put up with endless degradation and theft so long as some teleprompter reading punk in a suit tells them a bunch of warm and fuzzy bullshit about how they are making the world a better place for tomorrow and...wait for it...THE CHILDREN!

Wed, 03/19/2014 - 20:54 | 4570226 seek
seek's picture

He's not lying about the CA stuff. I've neved lived or worked in California, but every year my accountant has to reply to letters from the California dept. of revenue explaining that because a corporation in California paid my corporation in another state does not entitle California to collect individual income tax on my entire personal income, or any portion of it.

I'm sure it's only a matter of time before they pass a state law that says otherwise, constitutional or not.

Wed, 03/19/2014 - 20:59 | 4570245 t0mmyBerg
t0mmyBerg's picture

if all of the people just killed all of the government workers then this would not be an issue.  of course we might lose some services.  but it is one or the other it looks like

Wed, 03/19/2014 - 21:02 | 4570259 Hungarian Pengos
Hungarian Pengos's picture

Cleveland, Ohio:  They run the red light camera scam there with a twist - the registered owner of the car gets ticketed, regardless of who's driving.  So if your 17 year old kid or wife is driving 2 miles over the spped limit, you get a $100 ticket in the mail.  Three weeks later.

Ohio Appeals Court ruled the whole thing unconstitutional and you know what that bankrupt hellhole city did?  Told the Court to fuck off that they weren't changing a thing.

Cleveland has this complete illiterate fuckwad named Frank Jackson as Mayor.  Tito Jackson would be more qualified than him.  Half the City Council are either 3 time DUI convicts or other assorted criminals.  Fuck that place and fuck the voters that elect people like that.

Wed, 03/19/2014 - 21:55 | 4570494 Crawdaddy
Crawdaddy's picture

Have some buds living up there and the last I heard the gov there was impounding cars over the smallest of things. One of my friends was pulled over for crossing the center line ( on a back road with no painted lines) and even though the cop knew he wasn't drunk/stoned he had his truck towed. They dropped the charge but he still had to pay a $325 towing fee. Turns out the tow company is owned by the brother in law of the DA. Fuckers.

Wed, 03/19/2014 - 21:09 | 4570286 Unknown Rider
Unknown Rider's picture

The public service unions and the politicians are in together in bed on this one. Promises were made to the workers to get pensions, that needs to be honored. Promises were made to the taxpayers to provide services and represent them and these promises need to be honored too. I say attach all public union and their politician bedmates' assets to fund the pensions to the maximum level possible and lower taxes as far as possible. No one should get away with raping the public service employees and the taxpayers.

Wed, 03/19/2014 - 21:28 | 4570375 WTF_247
WTF_247's picture

Yep. Eventually it will all implode on itself.  You cannot force people to pay for something for which there is no money to pay it with.  Some of these cities obligations are not even payable if they raised sales tax to 20%+.  You actually think people will stay if you have to raise taxes that or more?  They will bolt to another county, state, whatever OR just go on the dole because its less hassle.

The point is you cannot force the population to pay for contracts negotiated between politicians and unions that solely benefitted them both but not the rest of the population.  You can get them to pay a little more but beyond that people balk and move or fight back.

What do you think would happen if property taxes were tripled?  Sales taxes doubled?  Fees doubled?  No way they could collect that.  People do not have the money.  The avg income in the US is about 50k per year.  If you own a modest house (100k) and pay 1500 in property tax there is no way you can all a sudden afford $4500 EVERY YEAR just to live in your house - that is 10% of your income pre-tax.  The property tax is about equivalent to your monthly mortgage payment ($400).  Good luck collecting that.

 Most major cities are going toward this path.  For now they can borrow their way out of it (new and rollover debt) -that window is gonna close soon.  Thats when the bad begins.

Wed, 03/19/2014 - 21:46 | 4570457 Crawdaddy
Crawdaddy's picture

It is all designed to steal and stir the pot. Another attack vector against people who still believe in honesty, fairness and the protestant work ethic.

Traffic cameras, private jails, cash theft, the list goes on. The visible beneficiaries (public employees, politicians) are taking the heat (deservedly) while the unseen hand is again untouched. All this shit is happening because is was an action item from the Committee of 300 a decade ago. Two goals: 1) enrich their enforcement arm (local gov) while building the police state grid. 2) weaken the lower and middle classes to make them less able to be able to defend themselves from the NWO onslaught.

If Joe Six Pack is busy trying to stay out of jail over a busted tail light he won't have time/energy to care about Agenda 21, amnesty, invasions, banksters etc.

Thu, 03/20/2014 - 16:21 | 4574224 MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

And Agenda 21 is written inversely. The elite want lots of slaves in poverty so they pretend they want de-population so people will say "hah!! I won't de-populate, I'll make babies!!" then you make their slaves for the next generation.

Wed, 03/19/2014 - 21:13 | 4570298 toys for tits
toys for tits's picture

Contempt of Court to enforce fines is big in Florida.

Per case law, someone accused of a crime doesn't have a right to a state-paid attorney if their charge can't result in jail time.  Most people couldn't afford an attorney to defend them for almost anything.

These unrepresented people then either are found guilty or plead out with probation and a fine.  If they don't pay the fine they are then arrested and spend time in jail until they pay some or all of their fine.  This happens over and over to them and they lose jobs or can't advance in their careers because of it, perpetuating the poverty cycle.

Wed, 03/19/2014 - 21:17 | 4570315 WTF_247
WTF_247's picture

The cities have spent 150% of the estimated tax revenue each year before the year even starts.  They rely on fines and junk fees to make up the balance and then borrowing to cover what that does not.  Pensions and salaries in most cities probably take up 60-70% of the taxes, perhaps more.  Add on debt payments you are up to 80% or higher.  That leaves next to nothing to run the city.  It is next to impossible to tell exact amounts becuase of all the phony accounting.

Because cities have complete control over fines they see it as guaranteed income.  IF every citizen stopped violating rules they would be screwed and would make up new rules so that they are impossible to comply with so they can get their income.  Why do you think they do not want people to feed other peoples meters?  Its not about the parking coins its about the 500% ticket vs parking fee they can collect if you do not pay on time.

Wed, 03/19/2014 - 21:31 | 4570394 10mm
10mm's picture

Yet dick heads continue to join military along with other drone fucks and freaks.

Wed, 03/19/2014 - 21:53 | 4570486 VWAndy
VWAndy's picture

What a giant chain yank. These tools are being feed so much BS it boggles the mind. The ones working in local governments cannot be made whole. Sure they might keep it going for just a bit longer for some other tool that retiered 40 years ago. But there is not going to be an easy street in the current emloyees future.  

 About that 8% retern does it still return 8% if they never actually made any investment?

 Just what is an unfunded pension liability?

Wed, 03/19/2014 - 22:02 | 4570514 johnberesfordti...
johnberesfordtiptonjr's picture

There's a common theme to all of this and it's not about pensions... that's a complete red herring. The real culprit is the privatization of government. Speed cameras, incarceration incentives, property seizure, private tax collection, etc. originate with schemes promoted by specialized private sector firms selling a range of public/private "partnerships" designed for "revenue enhancement" without raising taxes. For example, the infamous "Corrections Corporation of America" that has lobbied for HIGHER rates of incarceration... I wonder why? This is a classic example of corporatocracy at the core. The most egregious examples are found in “conservative” states where the phony “free market” talk is easily swallowed by the public.     

Local governments are particularly hard hit by slow growth/real estate crash/mass unemployment accompanied by a reduction in tax revenue, and an increase in social service expenditures.

Prior to the mass Gilded Age-like boom/bust insanity created by financial industry de-regulation and the adoption of so-called “free market” policies, pensions were well funded and local budgets were not stretched. Budget deficits and borrowing are a SYMPTOM of the problem, not the cause. It’s like some of the folks on ZH who think that the rise of soup kitchens caused the Great Depression.  Most pensions were funded in the 80%-90+% level prior to 2008 and the average payout was in the $35K range. During the bubble many were funded well above 100%.     

Charles Hugh-Smith (along with Mish Shedlock) is a marginal alarmist blogger who HATES the idea of government pensions simply because he doesn’t have one. The envy is palpable. The examples that he cites are not connected to local pension problems. Many of these private sector “free market” ploys started well before pensions became an issue.  As usual, the associations that he makes strain credulity. 

Wed, 03/19/2014 - 22:36 | 4570680 spanish inquisition
spanish inquisition's picture

Early pensions were a point in time reference where 2 parties sat down and agree to a future retirement plan based on specific metrics that everyone agrees is sustainable. What happened? The Fed is unable to steal a couple of pennies a day because of inflation overrides, so early pensions were generally insulated from the process you and I experience every day. I think that was part of the original plan of labor defending themselves from bankers. They are time capsules of what was suppose to be and they tell you how much the Fed and Government has stolen from you over a last few decades. I find it hard to get pissed off at  early pension models and unions for financial planning, They are getting screwed just like everyone else now. 

Thu, 03/20/2014 - 15:49 | 4574062 MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

What is Fascism - John T Flynn - Von Mises - youtube
merger of cor-pirat-ion and government: that's Fascism

Wed, 03/19/2014 - 22:45 | 4570717 kchrisc
kchrisc's picture

Won´t end in bloodshed, but that will be a good beginning of the end.


"And the guillotine will be a fitting end for many a pol, crat and bankster."


Wed, 03/19/2014 - 23:06 | 4570797 chemystical
chemystical's picture

1940: 1 Fed Employee per 33 US residents.
1950: 1 Fed employee per 25 US residents.
1960: 1 Fed employee per 22 US residents.
1970: 1 Fed employee per 15 US residents.
1980: 1 Fed employee per 14 US residents.
1990: 1 Fed employee per 13 US residents.
2000: 1 Fed employee per 13 US residents.
2010: 1 Fed employee per 13 US residents.

Not as bad as I thought.  I expected to post something snarky about 2080 where the trend puts the ratio at 1:1 and we're all gov't employees.

Ofc these numbers don't count de facto employees, but the budget increases (and defecits) don't appear to be funding federal employment.  So, exactly where is it going?  (Rhetorical question)

Wed, 03/19/2014 - 23:24 | 4570873 blindman
blindman's picture

and in other news ...
check this, at least the judicial system is
still working?
illegal immigrant sues rescuers that saved his life from flood
go figure. what a mess

Thu, 03/20/2014 - 01:23 | 4571235 damicol
damicol's picture

History shows that the end of all civilizations comes about due to the rise , the corruption and then looting by the bureacracy.


They control all the levers .

The only way to fight back is to have the stomach to enable you to do what is absolutely necessary.

In the end it will be a simple war between the bureacrats and the rest.

You have tyo have to have the stomach to destroy the bureacracy.

Without emotion, without fear,   just simply destroy it.

 And how to do that.

 Quietky collate all the dtails of all local and national civil servants , Try to target the highest levels first . If you cannont work your way down,

Then they need to be eliminated, not through some  quiet  way, but horribly,  with mutilated and tortured bodies found dumped in heaps, enough to make them tremble with abject fear, so that they will rather  scavenge in bins that attempt to go to thier jobs.

When they have that fear, the system will break down, enough of them need to be so terrifed of what will happen to them or thier families in they collaborate with the enemy, the US govt that they fear you more than the govt.

It needs dstrong men with strong stomachs, but failure to act will gurantee they will eventually cause millions to die such is the greed corruption and power of the bureacracy


Thu, 03/20/2014 - 06:08 | 4571536 Aussie V
Aussie V's picture

Far out you guys are just starting to catch up to us in Oz. Here, we pay thru the nose for everything! We even have to pay a "Greenie fee" now to go into the bush, National Parks, State Parks, Reserves, and some beaches.

We pay extremely high taxes but when you need a Government service you have to pay for it as if it was a private corporation! Which it legally now is!!! Crazy mate that it has come to this. User pays wherever you go whatever you do.

The Coppers (Police to you numbnuts) set all types of speed traps, speed cameras, DUI Tests everywhere you go as well as Cameras now measuring your speed over two given points are everywhere however, IF you need the Police for something really important you have to wait up to 3 to 4 hours (where I live) before they even turn up.

Hell, after 4pm if you call them you get an answering machine!!!! Fair Dinkum! and we live 1.5 hours north of Brisbane where there are about 50,000 people.


Thu, 03/20/2014 - 06:41 | 4571562 Atlas Crapped
Atlas Crapped's picture

When the money is corrupt, so are the people. I hope for a return to honest money, but the corrupt are dead set against it. Time proves all.

Thu, 03/20/2014 - 07:04 | 4571587 pc_babe
pc_babe's picture

There is a 4th option

Thu, 03/20/2014 - 15:46 | 4574045 MeelionDollerBogus
MeelionDollerBogus's picture

Mayor Al Capone here jus, see, wants yoos tah know dis ain't no shakedown, iss jus for yah protection-like. Yup. Now couigh up da dough!

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