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Guest Post: Would America Go To War With Russia?
By James Robins Of The National Interest
Would America Go To War With Russia?
Vice President Biden was in Warsaw last week to reassure our eastern NATO allies that they have the support of a “steadfast ally.” But if Russia moved against Poland or the Baltic States, would the United States really go to war? Or would we do nothing and effectively destroy the NATO alliance?
President Obama has ruled out a “military excursion” in Ukraine. America is not obligated legally to take action against Russia for annexing Crimea. We would not go to war if Russia mounted a large-scale invasion of Ukraine to restore the ousted, pro-Moscow government of Viktor Yanukovych, currently under U.S. sanctions. And we would not even send troops if Ukraine was partitioned, or absorbed by Russia. Americans have no interest in such a conflict, and no stomach for it.
NATO allies are a different matter. The North Atlantic Treaty is a mutual-defense pact, and Article 5 says that an armed attack against one member state “shall be considered an attack against them all.” This is a clear red line. The only time Article 5 has been invoked was in the wake of the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks, and most NATO allies sent troops to support the efforts in Afghanistan and Iraq.
Could the current crisis expand to touch NATO? The developing situation in Ukraine has been compared to Germany’s absorption of Austria in 1938, or the subsequent partition and dismemberment of Czechoslovakia. Hillary Clinton compared Russian president Vladimir Putin to Adolf Hitler, which by extension puts President Obama in the role of British prime minister Neville Chamberlain, who famously failed to achieve “peace in our time” at Munich.
Push the analogy further. The Second World War was sparked by Warsaw’s resistance to Berlin’s demand to annex the Polish Corridor, a small stretch of land—smaller than Crimea—separating the German provinces of Pomerania and East Prussia. Hitler responded by invading Poland and partitioning it with the Soviet Union. Britain and France had pledged to defend Polish independence, and two days after Germany invaded, they declared war. In his war message, Chamberlain explained that Hitler’s actions showed “there is no chance of expecting that this man will ever give up his practice of using force to gain his will. He can only be stopped by force.”
This may or may not describe Mr. Putin, as Mrs. Clinton alleged. But if similar circumstances arise in the near future, will the United States honor security guarantees made to Poland and the Baltic States when the Russian threat was only a theory?
Mr. Biden stood with Estonian president Toomas Ilves Tuesday to “reconfirm and reaffirm our shared commitment to collective self-defense, to Article 5.” He wanted to make it “absolutely clear what it means to the Estonian people” and that “President Obama and I view Article 5 of the NATO Treaty as an absolutely solemn commitment which we will honor—we will honor.” Shortly thereafter, Moscow “expressed concern” about the treatment of ethnic Russians in Estonia. Mr. Putin justified his actions in Crimea as “restoring unity” to Russian people. Estonia’s population is 25 percent ethnic Russian, compared to 17 percent in Ukraine, mostly in the north and east part of the country. Suppose anti-Russian riots “spontaneously” broke out in Estonia. What would the United States do if Moscow invoked a “responsibility to protect” these people and bring them “back” to the Motherland? Would President Obama take military action against Russia over a small, secluded piece of a tiny, distant country? Would it be like the Polish Corridor in 1939? This is highly doubtful—highly doubtful.
Aren’t we obligated by treaty to intervene? Mr. Biden mentioned the “absolutely solemn commitment which we will honor.” It was so important he said it twice. However, Article 5 says that NATO members pledge to come to the assistance of the attacked state using “such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force.” It doesn’t take a White House lawyer to see the gaping loophole—President Obama can simply deem that the use of U.S. force isn’t necessary. He can walk back the red line, as he did with Syria. Stern talk and minimal sanctions would follow, but Estonia would lose some, if not all of its territory. And in practical terms it would mean the end of NATO, which is one of Moscow’s longstanding strategic objectives. Mr. Putin’s chess game does not end in Crimea.
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No. Not even this administration is that stupid. And our military just has to be tired of the years and years of b.s. and multiple rotations to SW Asia (if it ever came to that level of seriousness).
Yes, this administration is that stupid. BUT, they aren't the ones making the decision(s).
Ah, yes, I forgot...!
The pushback is coming from within the military and its stopped the Syria war game and Iran hit..........once they get the pushback from the generals resolved (see recent resignations) then "they" can start the hot wars they need to divert attention and begin consolidation of the technocratic control of us.
I think this will all be resolved with an arm wrestling match between Obama and Putin. Obama gets to use both arms.
Not really, MIC has used and dumped all out of date munition in afghan and Iraq and already billed to tax payers.
"Would America Go To War With Russia?"
Let's do it. I'm ready for a different game.
Russia has no interest in invading Poland. And eastern and southern Ukraine WANT to join Russia! Sending American arms to the nationalistic/fascist government and their right sector group and svoboda in western Ukraine to fight off Russia and Eastern Ukraine ensures a deceitful way to slaughter the slavic people on behalf of the USA. The Prime minister of Ukraine Yazenuk already gave off national treasures and Gold as a guarantee to an imf loan which poses austerity on the ukrainian populations and cuts pensions of old people ensuring they die. USA NEEDS TO STOP FUNDING AND SUPPORTING NATIONALISTS AND FASCISTS IN UKRAINE AND ALSO NOT PROMOTE THEIR PAWNS LIKE YAZENUK TO THE UKRAINIAN GOVERNMETN. Ukraine and Russia are brother Nations! WE BELONG TOGETHER. FUCK BANDERA
Brother nations my ass.... A brother nation doest NOT invade and annex territories from each other.
Say hello to Vladimir. Doesn't the kremlin have anything better to do than monitor ZH?
Phew, I was worried there for a second that it might involve the use of mental skills.
But both arms, I guess he stands a chance, --well, ------- ------ at least a small one.
Which certainly makes one hope there are large testicles @ in the junior ranks. I've seen some evidence of this...at least in the USMC. No wonder they were purposing reducing the grunts numbers to about Boy Scout troop size.
Zionist's plan to take the entire world down in Biblical fashion. There, fixed it.
attack or be attacked; if russia dilly dallies, then c-i arses move in subvertly and undermine order via false flag and unitizes wesern operatives to takeover via banker imf regime change and control. putin gets this clearly and uses his own style which is reactionary. certain not the agressor. spy vs spy, sociopath vs sociopath. world contrived of bad choices, with the good choice as no option, just the way control uninterrupted goes on and we ultimately are popcorn eaters without a say until the popcorn doesn't exist...
The moves in Ukraine and Syria are preemtive in order to protect the petrodollar. Something on the horizon adn coming toward them like a cliff.
PetroDollar is the key, it is the source of American power. Look at our debts, we print half the money government spends. The economy is a printers economy. IF the world ever refused US green paper for their oil, gas and manufactured goods, the game would end. Russia has real wealth, from production, not from printing. Britain is printing the ECB is printing the USA is out printing everyone. FIAT everywhere while real economie sink. Dollar is a fake currency, backed by nothing but lies and guns.
' Dollar is a fake currency, backed by nothing but lies and guns.'
True enough Jack, but that 'gun backing' is as relevant now as it has been throughout history. Fact was and remains: Might is right. The guns in the arsenal now are much more than guns, we the commoners have no idea how deadly that arsenal is. We can't even imagine.
Just stick that barrel out of the window and fire two shots ...
... Buy a shot gun
I was watching a msm talking head this AM, Fahreed Zakaria (sp?). For some reason I like him, he presents things from a slightly-off US perspective that's a little out of the ordinary.
Anyway, he starts with this forward thinking vs backward think world leaders meme. Countries like Taiwan & Singapore are forward thinking, while Putin is stuck in the past, trying to ressurrect the old Soviet Union.
But I'm thinking he has it backwards. These 'forward thinking countries are financial manipulators. Singapore &the US, & Most of the west, simply screw people out of money &power. Taiwan does to a lesser extent, but they are subsidized by the US MIC.
Meanwhile, Russia, China, & some of the other BRICs actually produce things, from raw materials (Oil to tennis shoes). They are trying to build something, a society, an economy, a way of life.
Which do you think survives the coming financial collapse? The forward thinking manipulators, or the backward thinking producers?
I think Zakareea is just a confused and alienated Pakistani.
How 'bout forward thinking producers? Is this not an option?
Sure, we can get into symantics, and catch 22s, but at the end of the day, which is coming soon, I think people who have or control real resources will prosper, while those that manipulate, scam, & grift those with real resources will not.
I didn't imply semantics, you did. As far as resources go, most of what this crowd regards as resources are just paper claims on future production. The actual resources are declining, and nobody wants to admit this.
I am a producer, toady. I can clearly see declining demand. You can try and say that producers will prevail, and I would love to agree, but from my perspective, demand is waning.
The producers are dying, for lack of demand. The economy is dead, save the 'markets'.
So, I guess yer not willing to trade some paper gold for an iPad?
I'll pass on both. I have no need for useless paper or NSA tracking devices. Wait, that paper gold might be useful as toilet paper!
Shiiiate! triplicate deleted.
duplicate deleted
china and russia
Oh for God's sake.
This isn't 1939. Germany didn't have a dominant position in oil and gas in 1939. Why don't people see reality?
Russia IS OIL DOMINANT. Only oil matters. They are draining hundreds of billions of dollars from their enemies Every Single Year and in return for this supposed wealth, they send something that gets burned immediately.
Yes, they soon won't take paper, but of course they won't take gold (which has no function in Russian society). They'll take calories. Or maybe already built and in the inventory military equipment. Or maybe factories shipped to Russia. Or semi slave labor shipped to Russia. The Saudis have semi slave maids. The Russians will, too, but they won't be Bangladeshi. They'll be French.
When that's the configuration you have in your winning hand of cards, why would you want to upset that flow of victory by forcing military confrontation?
actually, Iraq and Iran are set to increase production and they could replace a lot of Russian oil...in the short term the Russian position is secure...but that can change rapidly if Iraq and Iran come back strong...which i promise you the Saudi's don't want which is why they are funding those Liver Eaters in Syria.
as for the Saudis - having lived in Riyadh and worked for the Saudi government for a year - fuck that place. i will take Moscow any day. I was in Riyadh when those fucking animals killed that Brit soldier in London and that weekend i cancelled my visit to "Chop Chop Square". Riyadh is the closest place to hell i have yet been on this earth.
of course NATO is really the New World Order Army so that may change soon.
Iraq will add a few hundred thousand barrels per day this year.
The global conventional sources already in production decline at perhaps 5%/year. This is normal and natural. Since production is 76ish (crude only, not all liquids silliness) million bpd, then 5% of that is about 4 million bpd of new sources have to appear just to break even. Some of that will be in-field drilling, but in general new sources have to appear -- every -- year.
Iraq won't do an extra 4 this year. Nor will Iran. Nor will they in sum. A fairly large requirement exists on all other places.
So the point is you have to replace 4 million bpd before you can start thinking about replacing Russia's 7 million exported.
good post..
Russia does have a history of pms as currency. At one time there was Russian coinage in platinum as well as gold and silver... and paper... lots of paper.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_ruble
Tru dat.
From a numismatic perspective those platinum rubles are about as sexy as a platinum Russian blond in stockings and heels. Woof woof.
I remember in my early days teaching some russian guys how to drill horizontal wells. It was a great idea and the young engineers were very capitalistic (would buy American wares and ship them back to Russia....while being careful and crafty not to get in the way of the mafia) but more important they were 'hungry' to work, learn, and succeed.
I thought this is what it must've been like in America in the 1800s. Now, I understand why the cared so much...they had a bunch of socialist fairies next door that couldn't fend for themselves so they wanted to get them addicted to the good life and take it away. Now, maybe the europeans will wake up and learn how to take care of themselves....next up..USSA.
Military spending (beside the hidden) 10 x Russian and 6 x Chine's is boy scout troop?
you are lost from the reality..
That was in reference to proposed cuts....just before the Ukraine shitstorm happens.
I'm well aware of the spending....I doubt very seriously if we are getting our monies worth.
Dr. Antony C. Sutton's 1976 lecture on the Anglo-American financing of the Cold War is a fascinating and true history lesson. The same ones who funded the Russian Revolution are the ones who founded the Fed. The corporate interests on both sides are one and the same. WILL America and Russia go to war? ONLY if there is a distinct and large chance that those who control things would stand to gain by thermonuclear exchange (they are quite mad, you know).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0A6eu4JHBk
This is interesting...I just listened to the Peace Revolution #81 podcast on T and H Communications, and this section stood out and gained my interest...
https://www.tragedyandhope.com/peace-revolution-episode-081-self-confide...
YES, 9/11 was an 'inside job'. Ask Richard Andrew Grove.
Well, that video just disappeared!!
Whatever... However, the admirals know that the aircraft carriers are extremely suseptible to attack from very fast missles launched from air, sea, land.
The fast missles are being improved constantly... So, American gun boat diplomacy by aircraft carriers is coming to a close just as the era of the battleship (gunboat diplomacy) ended. Plus, as Rickover said 'there are two kinds of ships, subs and targets'.
Some choices... 1) US/NATO could fight a non nuke land war against Russia and it's allies... that didn't work well for Napolean or Hitler.
2) Nukes... even the bankers don't want that but the neo cons may be crazy enough to try it.
add your own choices...
Even if a war with Russia were to start with the intent to keep in conventional, I have a hard time seeing it not devolving to nukes. If we started to win, they'd get desperate. If they started to win, the psychos that we have running things would get scared.
El Vaq... you are correct. Once the first shots are fired all bets are off... ahhh, every country has it's own nuts.
"Some choices... 1) US/NATO could fight a non nuke land war against Russia and it's allies... that didn't work well for Napolean or Hitler."
Winter beat Napoleon, more than the Russians. Hitler had a war on multiple fronts. It wasn't just Hitler vs Stalin.
"Winter beat Napoleon, more than the Russians. Hitler had a war on multiple fronts. It wasn't just Hitler vs Stalin."
Congrats moneybots! You have enumerated a couple of the infinite 'fortunes of war'.
If you read Shirer's 'Rise and Fall of the Third Reich' you would see that Hitler, in all his wisdom, believed his meterologists and sent German troops into Russia with summer uniforms and no coats. Adolph's weather gurus said it was going to be a very mild Russian winter.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rise_and_Fall_of_the_Third_Reich
Weather gurus were than effective German resistance to Nazi madness I gather.
Adolph also thought they'd be done before winter. And a mild Russian winter is also pretty brutal by most people's standards.
Actually, hypothetically speaking, if I had to plan a land invasion of Russia, I would plan on starting it during the winter. I would also go after Russian food supplies. Wars between nation states are won in large part through logistics. Starting it in winter means that you'll be sending troops in already equipped for that shit and going after the food during a time when they can't grow any hurts their logistics. Even then, I still say invading Russia is a really fucking dumb thing to do.
So then Putin turns off the gas and lets Europe freeze. Yes, it would be a very dumb thing to invade Russia in winter.
I think gas and oil getting cutoff is a foregone conclusion in the event of an invasion of Russia, regardless of the time of year. Invade in the spring or summer, and the Russians would merely need to hold out until the next winter, assuming it stayed conventional that long.
But in any event, I think that before we see an actual war, we'll see a direct and very possibly successful attack on the dollar. Break the dollar and you break US power. Break the dollar and you cut off much of our access to the oil necessary to fight a war. Break the dollar and the fuckfaces in DC will have their hands full with civil unrest here at home.
Shirers book is bad. Very much wrong...
Attack on Soviet was premptive.
by a few weeks, Soviet was moving into offensive positions..
Most of what you have been told was not fact.
Remember how Katyn truth finally exposed?
Stalin was trying to buy YEARS of peace in signing a non-agression pact. The Soviet Union was in bad shape militarily - especially after the purges of top leadership - and needed a few years before they would be ready to face Hitler. Hitler knew that and intended to take down the Soviets while they were weak.
ITALY - and their clusterf**k invasion of Greece - screwed the Germans.
Germany had to go bail out Italy - who was getting their butts kicked by Greece. This delayed Germany's invasion of Russia by a couple months - enough of a delay to make the Russian winter an issue. Who knows what would have happened if Germany struck in April instead of June? How much farther would they have gotten? Russia was also keeping troops on their eastern borders - fearing moves by Japan (Google The Nomonohan Incident in 1939). The espionage info - that Japan would NOT attack) did not come until late 1941 - freeing up Soviet troops for the West.
Stalin also did a piss poor job of running that war in the beginning. His first mistake was trusting that Hitler wouldn't invade and the USSR got caught with its pants down. Then he held his troops back because he was scared of war with Japan. When the entire might of the USSR was turned against Hitler, it didn't go so well for the Germans. Yes, fighting on multiple fronts played a major role in Germany's loss, but winter also took its toll on Hitler's forces, and that is leaving out the tenacity of the Russian people when their homeland is being invaded. They'll give up when fighting in a foreign land, but invade their homeland and watch those mulish motherfuckers put their ears back and dig their heels in.
Stalingrad broke the German Army... and the bravery shown by the Russian people at Stalingrad was impressive to say the least.
Once Stalin stopped his army purges long enough to put Zhukov in charge of the army it was 'kick ass and take no prisoners' time.
Those folks living in Western Ukraine today probably have heard what happened to their relatives that decided to fight on the German side against Russia.
Hitler was the direct cause of the defeat in Stalingrad by ordering no retreat. Paulus could have broken out but didn't because of fear that Hitler would take it out on his family. Actually, Hitler's no retreat doctrine on the Eastern front mortally wounded the Germany army. And, yes, invading Russia is a dumb thing to do.
The book "Enemy at the Gates" is an excellent history of the German defeat in Stalingrad. [Note -- the movie of the same name had very little relationship to the book, other than the fact that it was also about Stalingrad] Things got so hopeless for the trapped German army toward the end that they didn't even bother unloading the few supply planes that were able to land at the Stalingrad airport--even though they were starving.
Find it interesting that in the US propaganda churnings Putin is Hitler or Stalin, while he is Napoleon in Germany.
Hubris is the common factor in these defeats and will be again.
US go to war with Russia? Only IF the overloards thought it might perpetuate a higher S&P. BUT, because that would not be the case - ABSOLUTELY NOT!!! Our boys die for corporate profit, NOT principle.
I hope Putin reveals the Emperor has no clothes, and, also has a vagina!!
US fight the Russians DIRECTLY - in person?!?!?
Ask the Hugarians in 1956, Czechs in 1968, and so many others who've been sacrificed in proxy actions. The Ukraine is simply the latest pawn to be sacrfificed in the grand Chess Game
Time to sweat, Mt. Toomas. Biden is making promises on behalf of Barry. And we all know Barry's record for defending those red lines.
VORWÄRTS SHUTZSTAFFEL!
DIE PANZER VORWÄRTS!
I think the Obama administration is currently debating on whether or not to boycott the Sochi Olympics.
The problem with the premise of this article is that they are assuming our government operates as if it is sovereign and rational, or that it has a sense of self preservation. The reality is that our government is just a puppet show and the international banks are pulling the strings. America is expendable if it will buy the banksters the global governance they desire. If the elites want the U.S. to go to war with Russia, we will. Even if it makes no sense to any of us on the surface, there are always secret motives behind every conflict.
Very true. Always a secret motive we cannot see. I get the distinct feel lately, however, that the masses are torn in so many directions that confusion reigns. This fraud economy only continues for as long as the masses can't hang on. The oligarchs in secret know that war will cull the herd.
And that's a lot faster than Obamacare can do the job.
FORWARD SOVIET!
All Wars Are Bankers' WarsIn the Cuban Missile crisis JFK was getting advice from people like Curtis LaMay that the US casualties could be less than 20 million - so go ahead with MAD launch
JFK and IKE are NOT the same caliber of Leaders as Bush / Clinton and the Trojan Horse named Obama
Eisenhower was war criminal...
What Eisenhower, MacArthur and Patton did to their fellow veterans was unforgivable. Fuck all three of them.
Smedley Butler ... THERE was a true leader.
Not true, JFK was another unaccomplished and inexperienced pretty boy with Dad's cash behind him. After meeting Khrushchev, Nikita figured JFK would be easy to roll incepting the Cuban crisis. Now, Putin will come to Cuba, and we'll see what Obama does. I will agree JFK was far more manly than the Kenyan Pansy Ass.
I wonder what Barry thinks of getting kicked in the ass by heroes nearly everyday?
FORWARD SOVIET!
Interview in Göring's cell at Nuremberg (3 January 1946) "Göring: Why, of course, the people don't want war. Why would some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best that he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece? Naturally, the common people don't want war; neither in Russia nor in England nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist dictatorship".
Gilbert: There is one difference. In a democracy, the people have some say in the matter through their elected representatives, and in the United States only Congress can declare wars.
"Göring: Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country."
Every student in every school in every country should have to memorize that, verbatim.
Every politician should have it tattooed backwards on their stupid narrow foreheads, so they'd have to see it every day in the mirror.
Snidley, maybe it is wishful thinking on my part, but since 9/11, at least for me, that shit ain't working. My leaders are full of shit, and I can only hope I'm not alone in thinking this way.
In fact, I know I'm not alone. I don't know what the readership of ZH is, but CogDis recently revealed that for every comment he gets via this forum, he gets nine more from folks who don't express their views on this board.
That's the most encouraging news I've heard in quite some time. I 'get' that a lot of folks want to keep their head down and stay 'off the radar', but I just don't give a fuck anymore- I won't shrink from the psychopaths. They can either feed me, or kill me, but they can't have my support.
acethinker...
I ask questions and think about things. If I happen to know something about a topic I will sometimes comment.
No need to go out of your way to piss off our leaders... believe me, they are already pissed enough by Putin frustrating them.
I don't claim to be an ace thinker, I am merely a stinker in other words. To wit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opGVGKw_lDU&feature=kp
Would mass media and general level of education change Goring view ? Far fewer now live on a farm and are more knowledgable about how Wash., Neocons , lobbyists and multinationals operate. We fought in Iraq and Afghanistan at arms length--- no draft, voluntary army, private sector outsourcing of logistics for military, no civilian sacrifice including no war tax-- just easy off budget accounting. Doubt if average American would fight for liberating neocon/ neofacist illegitimate henchmen in Kiev. In addition any confrontation by Ukraine with Russia would experience mass desertions on the part of East Ukrainians as they would be killing brothers for sake of questionable Western interests. Actually, if Russians ever enter Ukraine, the first to flee would be current government in Kiev because they know Russians would not be kind with them, especially those with dual citizenship
The author neglected to mention that the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor, followed by a German declaration of war against the US, is what drew the US into WW2.
Maybe this time China attacks Pearl or _______ , fill in the blank, ... How is that for a black swan?
NO. INCORRECT.
The United States 'officially' entered the war in March 1941.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lend-Lease
1922:
On December 20, 1922 the New York Times reported4 that automobile manufacturer Henry Ford was financing Adolph Hitler's nationalist and anti-Semitic movements in Munich. Simultaneously, the Berlin newspaper Berliner Tageblatt appealed to the American Ambassador in Berlin to investigate and halt Henry Ford's intervention into German domestic affairs. It was reported that Hitler's foreign backers had furnished a "spacious headquarters" with a "host of highly paid lieutenants and officials." Henry Ford's portrait was prominently displayed on the walls of Hitler's personal office:
1930's:
It was Henry Ford who in the 1930s built the Soviet Union's first modern automobile plant (located at Gorki) and which in the 50s and 60s produced the trucks used by the North Vietnamese to carry weapons and munitions for use against Americans.2 At about the same time, Henry Ford was also the most famous of Hitler's foreign backers, and he was rewarded in the 1930s for this long-lasting support with the highest Nazi decoration for foreigners.
Wanna see Bush's family, or IBM's involvement?
That 'declaration of war' by 'congress' was a mere formality, by this time. In reality, the 'great war' never really ended (it simply went 'cold' for a while).
Hitler's personal pilot drove a Ford...which used to drive Hitler up a wall.
It was a food reminder however that "Americans had an industrial capacity too."
Horseshit... A country is at war when it's leader/leaders declare war.
Americans had an overwhelming reluctance to enter WW2 offically and only an FDR provoked attack on Pearl by the Japanese did the trick. FDR declared war on Japan the next day.
Your fact are correct but your time line is not. Of course the industrialists and bankers wanted a war... The ALWAYS do cause it's a money maker for them.
It has been argued that the economic sanctions the USA put on Japan "provoked" the Japanese attack.
That did show the USA certainly was not really "gunning" for war. Nor we're we ready for it when it came.
If cutting off Japanese access to oil and steel counts as provocation then the US did it.
FDR was limited but did manage to quietly ramp up war production prior to Pearl. For instance Boeing had delivered about 20 B-17s to the US Army by 1938. Evaluation of new armaments/new designs had begun in the US by the early 1930s.
There are many other examples but you already know that.
.
Japan was FDR's plan B. For several years he'd tried to get a war going with Germany, but the Germans wouldn't take the bait of American ships carrying supplies to Britain. The sanctions against Japan were essentially a blockade in everything but name.
The US had broken the Japanese codes. FDR and his team were eavesdropping on their internal diplomatic deliberations and military communications. The Japanese prime minister contacted the Americans and proposed traveling to the US on a secret mission to reach a negotiated peace settlement regarding China and southeast Asia.
The US response was to leak the proposal to a pro-war newspaper. The Japanese prime minister lost face and his government collapsed, only to be replaced by militarists.
"The question was how we should maneuver them [the Japanese] into … firing the first shot without allowing too much danger to ourselves."
--
Henry Stimson, US Secretary of War, diary entry for November 25, 1941
The US was watching a spy operating out of Pearl Harbor and had been decoding his messages and relaying them up the chain to DC. FDR and his team knew the Japanese had mapped every warship in Pearl Harbor and were following the movements of the Japanese fleet. They knew exactly when and where the attack would take place.
references:
http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2012/12/06/pearl-harbor-roosevelt-knew/
http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2013/12/05/a-president-who-should-liv...
Right on TheFourthStooging... Only thing you left out was that there had to be a fall guy/guys for the 'surprise' attack on Pearl... Admiral Kimmel and Gen Short were thrown under the bus but they were never provided the intelligence that FDR was getting.
BTW, did you notice that in the documentaries regarding the attack on Pearl that the fact that all the aircraft carriers were at sea is always glossed over? Occasionally the excuse is given that the ac carriers were delivering air craft to another island is mentioned... or, they were conducting 'fleet exercises'... without any escorts or battle ships?
I was in the Navy and don't recall one instance where ac carriers were deployed sans heavy escort.
.
I'm sure it was just a clerical error or something. The orders for the escort ships were accidentally sent to San Diego and didn't make it back to Pearl Harbor until the afternoon (local time) of December 7th. Yeah, that must be it.
Washington D.C.
@Snidley
FDR, being the usual narcissist, like Wilson, just had to be the "peace maker" for his ego's sake. We committed acts of war against the Japanese(embargos, blockades) which sped up their attack. We had no dog in the fight anymore then the usual European wars of the last 1,000 years, yet we went to war with Germany before we got to Japan, the people who actually attacked us.
That sick, debilitated old man gave away the lives and futures of millions because he "could handle Uncle Joe". What vanity the killer.
DIE PANZER VORWÄRTS!
Have you seen the type of creatures that inhabit the US military these days?
Aside from white men in SF and Marines, American forces are increasingly made up of chubby blacks, hispanics, females, gays, and trannies.
Yes of course. Thanks for reminding us that it is, with the exception of the puppet on Penn Ave. and Hillary in her pant suit, near to wholly white men who start the wars. They are more than happy to let every other "type" of American fight and die. White men are nothing to hold in esteem when you look at the creatures in Congress and the oligarchs and technocrats who are, nearly without exception, white men.
Yeah, those Africans with their genocides, necklacing, hacking off of limbs, cannibalism, are far more refined and peaceful.
The Japanese Army was a model of control and peaceful occupation. Just ask Shanghai.
FORWARD SOVIET!
One can only hope DHS follows the same recruitment profile.
Suppose Germany, France, and/or England, and maybe even Poland get involved in a shooting war in Estonia. Once the primary allies are involved it's a done deal - the US would be in. It just isn't as simple as Russia-vs-Estonia.
This article smells of neoconstipated propaganda. This James S. Robbins guy that wrote it is a mouthpiece for the American Foreign Policy Council, another war-cheerleading neocon Vichy DC think tank. His bio on their site paints him as a go-to guy for the MSM whenever they need a talking head advocating war.
Let's observe his technique. He begins by trying to bring back to life the Cold War-era Domino Theory through the invocation of menacing flights of fancy:
The funny thing about these neocons is how they unconsciously project their own motivations onto The Enemy®. Attacks, invasions, partitioning, and absorbtion are actions that neocons continually advocate the US government participate in or sponsor. They mistakenly believe that what motivates them is also what motivates Putin.
Next, he resorts to the obligatory Hitler du jour.
Notice how his choice of words, "the situation has been compared to," leaves himself an out, as does his exposition of Hillary's comments.
...yet he devotes two entire paragraphs to making sure you remember that Putin is Hitler.
Is this the end, my friend?
Hitler's coming 'round the bend.
People running 'cause they're scared.
You people better go and beware.
Translation: "You'd better watch out, because the Russians are gonna get you! Putin is HitlerBearPig, and he's coming for you! I'm super serial!"
More neocon projection. The US, not Russia, is infamous for invoking "responsibility to protect" as an excuse to drop bombs on the uncooperative.
The funny thing about US treaty obligations is that they're used when convenient and ignored otherwise. In fact, Mr. Robbins inadvertently revealed the underlying reason for the continued existence of NATO:
NATO exists in order to compel member nations' compliance with orders from Vichy DC. Everything else is just spin and puffery.
Again, more projection. One of Vichy DC's longstanding strategic objectives has been to use NATO to surround Russia and be ready to "liberate" it, just in case a "democratic uprising of the people" were to occur.
Opaque, yes, but still projection. In terms more transparent, the neocon game of pushing for war does not end until they are all hanged.
"There's something happening here.
What it is ain't exactly clear.
There's a man with a gun over there,
Telling me I got to beware..." -- Buffalo Springfield
Fuck the Ukraine, if they won't stand up to the Russkies, I don't give a crap for them!
But I do believe Amerika should go to war with Russia, and nuke the bejasus out of them, just for jailing and roughing up Pussy Riot!
That's enough justification for me!
"The developing situation in Ukraine has been compared to Germany’s absorption of Austria in 1938, or the subsequent partition and dismemberment of Czechoslovakia. Hillary Clinton compared Russian president Vladimir Putin to Adolf Hitler, which by extension puts President Obama in the role of British prime minister Neville Chamberlain, who famously failed to achieve “peace in our time” at Munich.
Push the analogy further. The Second World War was sparked by Warsaw’s resistance to Berlin’s demand to annex the Polish Corridor, a small stretch of land—smaller than Crimea—separating the German provinces of Pomerania and East Prussia. Hitler responded by invading Poland and partitioning it with the Soviet Union. Britain and France had pledged to defend Polish independence, and two days after Germany invaded, they declared war. In his war message, Chamberlain explained that Hitler’s actions showed “there is no chance of expecting that this man will ever give up his practice of using force to gain his will. He can only be stopped by force.”
This may or may not describe Mr. Putin, as Mrs. Clinton alleged. But if similar circumstances arise in the near future, will the United States honor security guarantees made to Poland and the Baltic States when the Russian threat was only a theory?"
Pardon me, it is almost bullshit in my view. Comparing the facts preceding ww2, with some biased view, to force a justaposition of those facts with what is rolling in Ukraine, is almost and insult to a common man with memory.
Munich accord was not an appeasement, but a clever trick to not engage in war with Hitler with only France and UK. Although, Stalin promise to stand for Czech integraty, but when the war begun nothing guarantee that URRS would not stand neutral. Only France have frontier with the Nazis not URRS. So, it would be a war in the West, which would bearing the brunt of germans attacks. Chamberlain sacrifice of Czechs were very selfish, but to his country interests he did it, hoping turning Hitler to the East.
The guarantee UK, France gave to Poland was more understandable, because it was in the East and naturally could draw URRS in. Unfortunately, for them Stalin never thrust the West and after Munich fiasco he turned paranoid about UK intention and Hitler schrewdly pick up the mistrust to his advantage. And Stalin, just as Chamberlain in Munich, made and agreement to turn Hitler to the West. What Stalin didnt expect was the quick victory by the nazis in France. This only show both the West and URRS lose to nazis by their own mistrust.
Now, the biased analogy, since the demised of URRS in the 90s, who started wars in Europe to expand to East? And since 2000 who invade and occupied countries around the World? Before Ukraine crisis, there were Syria, before, Libya, before, Iraq, before Afghanistan, not to mention Ivory Coast, Mali, and coup d`etat in Honduras, Tunisia, Egypt, etc., Even in Ukraine who started a coup to derrube and elected government? Who void an agreement signed in 21th February for early elections in May, broken by Germany, Poland and France between the elected president and the opposition?
What they want is to force the eastern ukranianes, pro-russians, to accept the ilegal government of Kiev which are not elected by them. If USA want a genuine peaceful solution, it could agree to hold a free election in Ukraine as soon as possible. But they are afraid because certainly those guys in power now in Kiev would not stand a chance in free election.
Why USA are more interested in derrubing the elected government of Ukraine than EU? Are they afraid of something and want to cut the EU from Russia?
Concluding, in my humble opinion, US is more like Nazi Germany, with NSA spying on all citizens around the World and Angela Merkel in particular.
I think the United States of America would join Russia to kick the Globalists and banksters out of Washington D.C. and end the FED.
???
I 'think' you mean WISH!
Americans have no interest in such a conflict, and no stomach for it.
Their views are irrelevant.
Only Obomber's
USA protected the EU from the big bad bullies twice in the 20th Century at enormous cost. I say let the rich EU fight its own fight this time. They have way more skin in this game with Russia than we do.
Please stop confusing the continent with the organisation, they are NOT AT ALL the same. The EU was created in 1992, long after both world wars had ended.
Nonetheless, the argument stands. If Europe doesn't like paying its fucking gas bills, let them fight their own fucking war.
We've left way too much blood and money on dirt inhabited largely by folks who really don't care much for us.
hansg...
There are multiple 'organizations';ie, EU and NATO.
The fact is the US would not be in this position if the US had kept it's promise to 'not expand NATO toward Russia' after the collapse of the CCCP.
The idiot neo cons couldn't leave well enough alone and continued to push NATO toward Russia... If the chicken hawks want a war with Russia they now have their opportunity!
Putin has seen enough NATO expansion and he drew his own line... perhaps he will draw some more lines?
All of this originated with Halford Mackinder and his scribbling about the 'heartland theory'... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Geographical_Pivot_of_History
I don't see why Russia would have a problem with NATO expansion, unless they want to be free to invade their neighbors when the opportunity arises.
"I don't see why Russia would have a problem with NATO expansion, unless they want to be free to invade their neighbors when the opportunity arises."
You are either an idiot or have forgotten that the US almost went to nuke war with the CCCP when Russia supplied Nukes to Cuba.
It's called MAD for a reason. Both sides have to have the capability to launch when they detect a launch by their adversary. This condition no longer exists when anti missles are deployed too close to an adversarys silos.
Cuba? US had placed missle in Turkie aimed Soviets first...learn truth...not propaganda
idiot post.
no
Pat Buchanan seems to think we are spread a little thin with all our treaty obligations around the world.
http://townhall.com/columnists/patbuchanan/2014/03/21/marching-as-to-war...
Hiya friends, Ralph Spoilsport...(ah, Firesign Theater....).
Firesign Theater guys were way ahead of their time. Not as well known as Carlin but eerily prescient.
(Most of their albums are available on YouTube)
I've listened to "Nick Danger, 3rd Eye" about 75-100 times over the years (lately in the car driving to work and back)...still cracks me up. Reminded me of watching Python's 'Holy Grail'...you're too busy laughing at one line and it takes watching/listening a few more times to catch another funny line that you missed.
"Designed with your mind, in mind". LOL.
Uh, Clem.
We're all up against the wall of science.
Pat is correct.
The military knows it. Hagel knows it but I doubt that the white Houce or Congress knows it. Under a functioning government, Congress would have reviewed ALL our treaty obligations and canceled those that no longer apply to the interests of the US. Either that or increased our non nuclear military capabilities in order to be able to deal withe our military treaty obligations.
You and 13 other douchetards care what draftdodger Patty thinks!
Yeah, he shoulda gone and fight fer his cuntry!
Would the US fight Russia? If the jews tell us to do so.
Would America Go To War With Russia?
You ask that like it's a political or military call and not a financial orchestration.
The article should have asked "are we at war with Russia already?"
Hitlarry Clinton would......
...what difference would it make, really?
We have always been at war with Eurasia, over Eurasia.
Looks like we will never get that increase in chocolate rations if this keeps up. Perhaps they can revise the previous month's ration down and make it look like it went up this month.
You mean like employment data? Or GDP?
Sounds very much like Euthanasia
Repsect no authority? How about you define authority by what you respect? If it doesn't deserve your respect it is not an authority.
There is a difference between juvenile rebellion and adult recognition of reality and your place in it.
Many have tried to conquer and rule Eurasia: Alexander the Great, the Persians, the Mongols, the English, the Japanese. They all failed and so will others. So yes, it is euthanasia.
The developing situation in Ukraine has been compared to Germany’s absorption of Austria in 1938, or the subsequent partition and dismemberment of Czechoslovakia. Hillary Clinton compared Russian president Vladimir Putin to Adolf Hitler, which by extension puts President Obama in the role of British prime minister Neville Chamberlain, who famously failed to achieve “peace in our time” at Munich.
Absolute nonsense...if anything barry looks/acts like Wihelm II and Vlad is the only adult in the room and looks like Bismarck in his prime.
only adult? Either you are Russian or you are batshit crazy...he is kicking off WWIII and you say that, ugh!??
Perhaps he meant to say "he is the only one with any onions, and the only one protecting his nation's interests"
Oh ok, IF he had said that then no worries, but he didn't...
No...I meant EXACTLY what I said and I am not Russian but I do know some real history not the fabricated stuff most people throw around.
Lookit, my point is this, there are NO ADULTS in ANY rooms!!!! Got no qaulm with your post other than painting Pukin in a "better" light, shall I say.
I know a bit about history too. All European Monarchies were tyrannical, and were overthrown. Pukin is a tyrant, Obama is a tyrant, etc etc...these fuckers look more like Hitler and Mussolini, respectively, every day!
Go ahead and down vote me people, yet we share the same goals...I may be a blunt POS, but I don't write fluff!
Oh but Putin is the bestest tyrant ever. He loves everyone so much that he would never order an apartment building in Russia bombed so he could kill more brown people. He is the next best thing to Jesus they say. He can catch a 25 lb pike and it miraculously nearly doubles in weight. He is the chosen one.
Putin is a thug and anyone who supports him is either stupid or choosing the devil they don't know but I repeat myself.
I'll get down votes and probably someone will accuse me of shilling for the other tyrants but I did not do that. Hang Putin and the rest of them. If that makes you Putin lovers butthurt so be it. His head on a stake next to the rest is nothing but a good start.
.
Yeah, that sort of thing would never happen in good ol' Americaland.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOVE#1985_bombing
Also remember the Chinese Embassy during the Yugoslavia mess...at least I think it was then...that was an intentional hit and not an accident.
And you can sit on your point...there IS a difference between Vlad and barry...now in the future Vlad may prove himself to be as bad as the US dictators...but right now he is taking care of business and protecting Russia's greater interests...cannot say the same for barry...Vlad looks like Bismarck to me and none of them were nice guys but some at least protected their interests.
Vlad did not go pissing in people's water bowl in Georgia, Libya, Syria or Ukraine....
So he is like Bismark? That makes what he has done legitimate, pretty weak arguement there. Vlad is nothing more than a butcher, you will see, just look into his dead eyes. He is easy to ID, barry on the otherhand is a shape shifter, weasel, not so easy to spot (for the uninitiated).
Carefull we are Weimar. Pretty good use of an hour.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzw0Ocjgl8o
Got Weimar?
"The new tactics are much more effective as, the funding of different kinds of hirelings does not need to be approved through the American Pentagon budget and mostly, no explanations need to be given to journalists and to American society about the cost of bloody wars or, about the coffins of the dead soldiers that return to America. Additionaly, this tactic is gaining approvement by a significant majority of local communities, as in many cases, suffer from poverty and oppression by authoritarian regimes."
http://failedevolution.blogspot.gr/2014/03/the-closed-system-of-biggest-...
I get the feeling that the USA was sucked into interfering in Crimea even though it appears otherwise on the face of it.
Election outcomes might have been more difficult for Russia to control.
Putin definitely knows his chess.
The EU went into Ukraine and DEMANDED nicely that they join the EU. Yanukovych said, nope, sticking with Russia. The EU controlled by the J bankers wasnt having any of that and coordinated with the US the covert operation to take over Ukraine.
There was really nothing hidden or real fancy about it. We have all seen it before. This time they got a little to close to the bear and got bit! The US did not get suxed in, the US is under control by the same Z scourge that controls the EU.
Russia need to step it up and get operatives within Greece, Spain, Portugal and Italy. Lest see how the EU responds to their own countries being covertly "couped"!!
We will be lucky to keep it in the EU. Fact, russians don't like black, brown or yellow people, gays, kikes, spicks or muslims...basically most non-russians....what if they infiltrated the US in the neo-nazi/white supremist world....could create some havoc here at home if we don't watch out. We go and give money to foreign 'freedom fighters'...what if they did the same here?
Don't. Poke. The. Bear.
A conventional war with Russia would require mass mobilization and conscription. No way this is passing in the US. A nuclear war is certainly of the table as the elites will be just as dead as everyone else.
All we will get with Russia is a lot o rhetoric and posturing from the US/EU, while Russia along with China take meaningful steps to consolidate their power and kick the West out of their spheres of influence.
The elites think they can survive a nuclear war by hiding in underground bases. They will try to start WWIII if they know a total financial collapse is imminent and they can't shift the blame. They will definitely try to start a nuclear war if there is a worldwide rebellion against them.
Either way, they plan to hide underground for a couple hundred years and then come out and use their advanced technology to lord it over the survivors (who they hope will have forgotten the real history by then). The elites are delusional. A couple hundred years of sociopathic control freak utopia with nowhere to run? They will end up eating each other down there. The last to die will be Jabba de Rothschild. He will say "Poor me, a son of Lucifer, reduced to nibbling the bones of my last loyal minions! If only those dirty fucking hippies hadn't blocked my law requiring fluoride in all non-bank water coolers, everything would have been perfect, WAAAAAH!"
Too bad this won't happen. The militaries are waking up. I think cooler heads will prevail. This new cold war will not lead to WWIII. And yes, the East will win this time.
Does anyone on this thread have any idea of what it takes to conscript, mobilize, train, equip and militarily deploy even a small units the size of a Brigade Combat Team, much less the Divisions necessary for a long sustained military action?
We go with what we have, or we do not go at all. Ponder That.
It take a hell of a lot more than what we have now to go into Russia. And that's the easy part. The real problem is getting out.
50% import tariffs on Mail Order Brides, DAMMIT!
I guess it's too much to expect for anyone to know any European history prior to WW2.
Yes, of course they will, under President Biden.
[Not implying anything].