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Guest Post: Would America Go To War With Russia?
By James Robins Of The National Interest
Would America Go To War With Russia?
Vice President Biden was in Warsaw last week to reassure our eastern NATO allies that they have the support of a “steadfast ally.” But if Russia moved against Poland or the Baltic States, would the United States really go to war? Or would we do nothing and effectively destroy the NATO alliance?
President Obama has ruled out a “military excursion” in Ukraine. America is not obligated legally to take action against Russia for annexing Crimea. We would not go to war if Russia mounted a large-scale invasion of Ukraine to restore the ousted, pro-Moscow government of Viktor Yanukovych, currently under U.S. sanctions. And we would not even send troops if Ukraine was partitioned, or absorbed by Russia. Americans have no interest in such a conflict, and no stomach for it.
NATO allies are a different matter. The North Atlantic Treaty is a mutual-defense pact, and Article 5 says that an armed attack against one member state “shall be considered an attack against them all.” This is a clear red line. The only time Article 5 has been invoked was in the wake of the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks, and most NATO allies sent troops to support the efforts in Afghanistan and Iraq.
Could the current crisis expand to touch NATO? The developing situation in Ukraine has been compared to Germany’s absorption of Austria in 1938, or the subsequent partition and dismemberment of Czechoslovakia. Hillary Clinton compared Russian president Vladimir Putin to Adolf Hitler, which by extension puts President Obama in the role of British prime minister Neville Chamberlain, who famously failed to achieve “peace in our time” at Munich.
Push the analogy further. The Second World War was sparked by Warsaw’s resistance to Berlin’s demand to annex the Polish Corridor, a small stretch of land—smaller than Crimea—separating the German provinces of Pomerania and East Prussia. Hitler responded by invading Poland and partitioning it with the Soviet Union. Britain and France had pledged to defend Polish independence, and two days after Germany invaded, they declared war. In his war message, Chamberlain explained that Hitler’s actions showed “there is no chance of expecting that this man will ever give up his practice of using force to gain his will. He can only be stopped by force.”
This may or may not describe Mr. Putin, as Mrs. Clinton alleged. But if similar circumstances arise in the near future, will the United States honor security guarantees made to Poland and the Baltic States when the Russian threat was only a theory?
Mr. Biden stood with Estonian president Toomas Ilves Tuesday to “reconfirm and reaffirm our shared commitment to collective self-defense, to Article 5.” He wanted to make it “absolutely clear what it means to the Estonian people” and that “President Obama and I view Article 5 of the NATO Treaty as an absolutely solemn commitment which we will honor—we will honor.” Shortly thereafter, Moscow “expressed concern” about the treatment of ethnic Russians in Estonia. Mr. Putin justified his actions in Crimea as “restoring unity” to Russian people. Estonia’s population is 25 percent ethnic Russian, compared to 17 percent in Ukraine, mostly in the north and east part of the country. Suppose anti-Russian riots “spontaneously” broke out in Estonia. What would the United States do if Moscow invoked a “responsibility to protect” these people and bring them “back” to the Motherland? Would President Obama take military action against Russia over a small, secluded piece of a tiny, distant country? Would it be like the Polish Corridor in 1939? This is highly doubtful—highly doubtful.
Aren’t we obligated by treaty to intervene? Mr. Biden mentioned the “absolutely solemn commitment which we will honor.” It was so important he said it twice. However, Article 5 says that NATO members pledge to come to the assistance of the attacked state using “such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force.” It doesn’t take a White House lawyer to see the gaping loophole—President Obama can simply deem that the use of U.S. force isn’t necessary. He can walk back the red line, as he did with Syria. Stern talk and minimal sanctions would follow, but Estonia would lose some, if not all of its territory. And in practical terms it would mean the end of NATO, which is one of Moscow’s longstanding strategic objectives. Mr. Putin’s chess game does not end in Crimea.
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Send over Kim Kartrashian and Kayne West,,....that'll teach 'm!
yes please....one way ticket
The whole Lardassia clan, 1st class, Malaysian Airlines.
War with Russia? Shortest war ever fought and everyone goes home a loser.
If Puttin' nuked Washington DC., Denver, Chicago, NYC, Detroit, San Fransisco, Philadelphia, Seattle and Los Angeles, I wouldn't consider that a loss.
For fucks sake, could you give Detroit a break? Why nuke a wasteland?
Proceed in ernest on other targets mentioned.
I was gonna say....Detroit has been basically nuked sans fallout.
Yup tragic when the Ebony Bomb gets used.
I considered that...but then I thought it would make a nice parking lot for all those GM vehicles stuck at the dealerships.
A war with Russia that excluded nuclear weapons would highlight the fact that commoners are simply toy pieces for the super wealthy oligarchs to use for their own power games.
Anyone semi conscious already knows this... Shit, look at the Rules of Engagement in Iraq and Afghanistan... Two wars that were based on complete and absolute falsehoods.
Nobody is going to fight on a new Eastern Front over Ukraine, or anything else for that matter. The Red Menace is gone, and frankly people are beginning to hold the Russians in higher regard then the assclowns running the show over here.
"The Red Menace is gone, and frankly people are beginning to hold the Russians in higher regard then the assclowns running the show over here."
The Soviet Union disintegrated 22 years and 4 months ago>>>
"The Hun" was defeated in Nov 1918. 21 years and 2 months later Adolph Hitler was Time's Man of the Year for 1938. In 1940 FDR's popularity was at an all-time low (and he was on his way out of office until the convenient event of Dec 7, 1941).
The 22 Amendment precludes a 3rd Sotero term, but his approval rating is likewise at an all-time low.
Paging Mr Santayana. We'd like a quote from you.
Milli Vanilli was also fake
Divide and Conquer.
The only time Article 5 has been invoked was in the wake of the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks, and most NATO allies sent troops to support the efforts in Afghanistan and Iraq.
Why would the attack on 9/11 give credence to an attack on Iraq and Afghanistan when there was less proof of Iragi or Afghani involvement in 9/11 than there was US/EU involvement within the coup committed in Ukraine?
What organization protects countries that are covertly attacked by the US/EU/NATO???
Is Putin more popular in America than Obama? I would not be surprised.
Me neither. Looks like the Brits are rootin' for Putin also:
http://news.yahoo.com/britons-rate-russia-more-positively-eu-poll-shows-...
Putin will be the next Hitler: No one beats the Yids.
Why won't the masses wake up?
Gueules cassées - Men with broken faces (1918)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8epVBKiMmns
://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8epVBKiMmnsDelaware's Douchebag stretching the truth once again.
Fuck, look at the size of that candle, God loves ya fella!
Estonian here. Funny how our soldiers fought and died in your bullshit wars and should we be in trouble Americans think that's not a problem ? Estonia is both in the EU and the NATO. Estonia is the only country in Europe who actually took the bitter pill of austerity and let the economy do it's thing.
All in all it is absolute nonsense that Putin would invade Estonia. NATO and EU would become pointless in an instant. And it would not be a ''no shots fired'' situation either. We know our neck of the woods our soldiers are trained in guerilla warfare. We know that invasion by Russia would mean living under a dictatorship. Estonia would fight untill the last man if need be.
Have fun.
War is a John Wayne movie
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cc7ehb8agWY
Not in Estonia apparently.
This is a very dangerous situation because Russia is so "big."
That's why they're always being invaded.
"How can a country that big protect itself."
Read up on our history. Same shit different day..
NATO became irrelevant waaaaay back in 2008 when Russia invaded....Georgia, which even then was a full NATO member country.
I'd also like to point out that many of Russia's 14 neighbors, including Kazakhstan, Mongolia, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Georgia, Poland, Latvia and (get this:) Ukraine all supported the US in it's invasions of Iraq and/or Afghanistan.
But will the US of Zion support it's allies? Maybe. Only one truly matters to the US in the end. The others can be shown either a rug or a bus, which in either case they're getting shoved underneath.
Georgia was not, is not, and has never been a NATO country. They were applying for membership but it never happened.
And Russia itself supported the US in Afghanistan ... so?
No, Georgia was worse.
They got straight up puppets direct from DC central casting...and then they got their asses righteously handed to them for it.
Like epically cornholed.
"No, Georgia was worse. They got straight up puppets direct from DC central casting..."
They also had a large contingent of IDF advisors and boots on the ground.
UKR now has a large contingent of kosher leaders and bankers, and they also had a group of "former" IDF firing shots (probably in both directions).
www.haaretz.com/news/world/1.577114
Some puppets may be from DC but their strings lead to Tel Aviv
"That Was No Small War in Georgia" Mark Ames Radar Magazine
http://www.alternet.org/story/112457/that_was_no_small_war_in_georgia_--...
Really stupid post...Georgia NATO?
lots of that equipment left behind though...
Cheap shot at Latvia deleted.
" ... And it would not be a ''no shots fired'' situation either... Estonia would fight untill the last man if need be. " like the last time in 1944?
yes estonians might fight until the last man if estonian government and western alliance wouldn't sell us out first like happened in ww2.
i wouldn't spill a drop of blood for a country still run by ex-communists who will exploit this whole situation for their political profit.
just another estonian.
Those ''ex-communists'' ran the most laissez faire government in Europe. So yeah...Give me more of those ''ex-communists''..
don't confuse austerity with laissez faire. i'm talking about biggest EU proponents who are pushing the european federation agenda more eagerly than barroso and the ilk. that's their problem, they will always sell estonian people out to be on the "right side".
...thus leaving Putin with vacant real estate in .37 seconds.
Just because your country bought a line of bullshit from the same folks that are feeding us bullshit...don't go thinking I'm going over to die. I'm not going along with that anymore and I'm in company with legions of like minded.
You can fight the bear to the last man...it's ur call, homeboy. You'd just be leaving the bear a lot of pussy and real estate,
Estonia ain't exactly Finland. If Putin puts boot to ass, yours will be kicked most definitely.
There is no other option. We would get wiped out either way. We learned that the last time Russians came. First thing they did was try and kill our language and culture. Better to go out fighting.
IndyPat if Russia starts invading EU countries you will fight either way. If Putin is really that crazy, he wont stop in Estonia. No one will be able to ignore WW3. Better to stop him when there's still a chance.
Let me be perfectly clear.
I do not, in any way, wish for Estonia to be fucked with in any way. At all.
Was it smart for Estonia to join NATO or the EU?
Not in my opinion, but...who cares what I think.
Would it be smart for them to side with Russia? Maybe. Maybe not.
I'm not sure how high up Estonia is on Putins shopping list...he may want it as a place to camp on the way to slap around some frogs or krauts, but outside of that, I think you guys will be fine.
I think the Swiss model would be better for the folks of Estonia to consider.
If Switzerland was next to Russia, there would be no ''swiss model'' you can be sure of that.
Finland is the model Estonia should follow, not Switzerland...
Upon further reflection, I completely agree.
Every able bodied Pol, Slav, Czech, Estonian, Latvian should be reporting to Finland for "How to kick Russian ass with flair and style" training.
You assume that Europeans will fight if Putin decides to invade the EU. This assumption may be wrong. I would not be surprised if Russian troops were greeted as liberators from the tyrrany of the Great Soviet of Brussels.
I've seen weirder shit lately.
Wouldn't surprise me one bit.
We know that invasion by Russia would mean living under a dictatorship. Estonia would fight untill the last man if need be.
I wouldn't be so sure. Estonia's economy is worse than that of Ukraine, which unlike Estonia(#106) is at #36 spot in countries' GDP (PPP) list. Part of the reason East Ukrainians want to join Russia is because Russia is economically a better option than Ukraine and a much more attractive option than joining EU. Meanwhile, economically weak countries such as Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, and Ukraine have become breeding grounds for nationalistic movements. Just last week Latvia had its annual Waffen SS parade. Weak economy propelled Urkaine to become the top sex tourism spot with the highest HIV growth rate and Lithuania - the highest suicide rate. Enjoy EU membership while you laslt!
I live in Estonia. And I don't know anyone who would rather live in Ukraine.
http://www.indexmundi.com/facts/indicators/NY.GDP.PCAP.CD/compare?countr...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28PPP%29_per_capita
The standard of living here is much higher than in Ukraine. Estonia is a modern country compared to Ukraine. We don't have the corruption issues Ukraine has.
And the fighting part has nothing to do with the quality of life. It's about ethnical survival. If Russia invades us again, there will be no such thing as an Estonian. It's do or die..
Ditch NATO. Ditch EU.
Get yourself a nice twelve pack of tactical nukes and carry on with your bad selves.
Do this, and I'll book a vacation there every year and apply for a dual passport status, pay taxes...learn the language and history as well.
That's my Swiss model for you.
"Don't start none, won't be none. Oh, and we got nukes."
There you have it. Your new Estonian National Motto.
The Ukes played themselves by giving up their nukes and partially disarming conventionally. It's only yours if you can keep it.
Nan
"Estonia is both in the EU and the NATO."
If you think that this is in anyway significant, then Estonia has fallen for the greatest scam in history. Those two organizations will be remembered as the greatest and most obvious paper tigers ever.
tradehard proud man bitch of estonia.
you have been raped so much by the yid,the brit and the fucking yanks that your anus hole is so enlarged you do not even know you are being fucked anymore.
your tough talking words are the result of a sperm ridden mind dosed to the limit with random nato gissem.
kill yourself no amount of pschotherapy can help your warped salty diss position.
Do you kiss your mother with that mouth ?
The game Risk show thats Europe is geographically fucked.
They will go to War if it serves there political goals and you the people will fight it regardless of what you want or don't want. It's all about Politics, Money and Power.
World War I wasn't.
Love that.
Just like...
Recoiless Rifles aren't.....
Putin is actively battling Nazis, both within his own country and abroad. Russian Nazis & Communists for example are keen on rebuilding the Russian Empire & USSR respectively. Putin has led Russia now for around 15 years and yet his only military actions have involved defending Russian territory or Russian allies from foreign attack. Those arent exactly the credentials of a new Hitler now are they? He was obviously satisfied with Crimea being a part of Ukraine too, so long as the Black Sea Fleet & Sevatopol were secure. However, he was forced into annexing it due to the utterly stupid, reckless & Russophobic actions taken by both Western nations and the Kiev Putsch regime.
you mean the same putin who said Collapse of the Soviet Union was 'catastrophe of the century' ?
Ignorant post. You misunderstant President Putins statement.
American Great Depression was catastrophe.
Soviet collapse was three times worse...
both intentioned by finance freaks.
last time i checked, putin is still a politician so i don't think i misunderstood anything.
furthermore, the collapse of soviet union was also a tragedy for the US politicians, neocons, bankers or what have you. therefor they had to invent trrrsts.
Really. Youth today will not comply with draft bullshit. The military already rapes each other by the thousands, weather male or female, rapes are staggering in the military. Let the members of Congress and Senate send their little darlings.
I second the motion.
I don't think this generation will fight the war. I think it will happen with the next generation or the one after that depending on how slow the agenda moves forward. They are breaking down the country, not only the US but Canada as well. When you give people total misery there only escape will be a War. You Draft them all. It dosen't matter what people think they don't have a choice they never have had a choice. Unless you maim yourself or flee to a tropical Island lol. DUring Veitnam a lot of American's came up here to Canada to avoid the war, then you had the hippies who stayed home while the others went off to fight and Die. In the end when it was over the people who fought resented the poeple who stayed home. There are people who will fight and want to fight and serve there country and defend there freedoms. In a way too, here in the West most people have gotten War out of there system, but it's not so in other parts of the world. There are a lot of people who resent the West and think that we are all "rich westerners or the ugly american term " when now a days the wealth is being transferred to the esst but they still resent westerners anyways. Asians, Arabs, Blacks they all resent and hate the white westerner. There is a lot of BS in the world that needs to be flsuhed out and gotten out of peopel's systems.
You do realize too that eventually what will happen is that you are going to have " zones " on the planet North American, South America, Euro, Eurasia, Africa and maybe another. From there, they will break that all down again and create the world gov't. But your looking at 100+ years before the world gov't happens. I think this century will be the Zones. Just wait till Canada, US and Mexico merge to form the N.American Union.
Right now, I think Russia is trying to establish the new Eurasia Zone which so there picking what countries they want in it and breaking them down for absorption.
Wheather or not we actually have a WW3 will remain to be seen, but it will happen if the ruling class needs it to happen to fullfill there agenda.
I could be wrong but you never know.
Disclaimer I am Canadian.
...and strap McCain and his shoeshine boy Lindsay Graham to the front bumper of the first Humvee rolling in to Red Storm Rising.
I'm not sure about that. Millenials tend to be much more pro-authority than Gen X or the Boomers were at their age.
i don;t think Russia wants all those broke ass countries in Europe
It's a hypothetical question.
At this point, Putin's actions in Crimea have been limited, measured and largely justifiable given the huge numbers of ethnic Russians living there who were intimidated by having the Russian language outlawed. It is EXACTLY the same policy as the British government has over Gibraltar & The Falklands, even though the duplicitous British Foreign Secretary William Hague and PM Cameron choose to ignore it.
EVEN IF Putin moved into East Ukraine to protect ethnic Russians -- and essentially partitioned the country, leaving West Ukraine to join the bankrupt EU -- I would still say such actions were justifiable. Especially if those ethnic Russians were being subjected to any form of harassment or if Putin believed NATO was planning to install itself in Ukraine to intimidate Russia.
Anything more than that may lead us to think that Putin is planning to re-create the old USSR. All bets are off if evidence of that emerges. So far it has not.
Russian was never going to be outlawed, it was just going to be stricken from the list of official languages. And the new boss in Kiev vetoed that bill anyway, so even that's not happening. This has nothing to do with protecting ethnic Russians. I don't see Putin asking for a peacekeeping force, he's sending in ununiformed soldiers (in violation of the Geneva Conventions) to extirpate every trace of Ukrainian rule. This is all about restoring the glory of Muscovy to its 1945 apex.
Are you really going to invoke the Geneva Conventions, after Iraq and Afghanistan?
Fucking idiot.
Depleted uranium, extraordinary rendition, drone strikes a go-go, Blackwater Mercs....
We arm people that kill folks and ear their hearts raw on YouRube.
That piece of paper doesn't mean shit...and it never did.
IIRC the US troops invading Iraq and Afg were wearing US uniforms. Not that I necessarily supported either invasion, but there was no Geneva Convention violation.
You don't recall correctly, at all, fuckface.
It's called contractors....and special ops go in situations all the time without insignia.
The ones wearing uniforms were the fodder...the ones wearing the Blackwater patch were the war criminals.
Notice you didn't touch the other examples I listed.
As far as man crushes...and Putin...I wouldn't call it a crush. Healthy respect and with a touch of admiration for a man that gives a shit about his nation and people..that's something I can't say here in Indiana or the US.
So, blow it out your ass.
Blackwater came in after the invasion was over. GC doesn't apply to fights against insurgents or civil wars.
US special forces troops wear low-profile insignia but they are still in uniform. That's kind of a big deal -- ununiformed troops can legally be summarily executed if caught by the enemy.
And there you go with the pout about BO again. I'm not defending him or past US foreign policy decisions in the slightest.
stupid post..everything about Iraq was violations
If your mancrush Putin wants to show the world what a big dick he has, he should start by using uniformed troops, not Russian soldiers masquerading as locals.
What the fuck is your point?
Putin could dress his troops as Ronald Fucking McDonald.
They ass whipping would be the same, yet somewhat more entertaining.
I'm pretty sure everyone knows they are Russians....even if they forgot to bring their flag patches.
He's going to dick slap some folks over there no matter what particular costume his dick slappers show up in.
Count on it, hedge accordingly.
We won't be coming to help.
Putin has claimed that they are not Russian troops. So you're saying he's a liar?
You and I both know that:
1) they are, in fact, Russian Troops
2) Putin is thee world heavy weight champ of lying...with Obama a close second. The other branches of US Gov and Brussels fight it out for close third.
So, again...what is the point.
Mine was simple and well supported.
No one on this planet, except unarmed civilians, gives 2 poops about the Geneva Conventions and they never, ever, ever did.
Ever.
If those non-uniformed troops wound up tied to a post with a lead salad in their stomachs, you bet Putin would be screeching about Geneva conventions.
If Putin has even read the Geneva Conventions, I'll kiss your ass.
And if those un-uniformed soldiers had been killed, then we wouldn't be having this discussion, would we, smart fella?
Except they didn't. They stormed in, largely un-opposed and pitched their pup tents.
And ain't a single mother fucker in all of Europe is going to do jack shit about it.
Thanks, I enjoy ROTFL on a Sunday afternoon....
You write; "Russian was never going to be outlawed, it was just going to be stricken from the list of official languages."
And if stricken as an official language is NOT essentially equal to outlawing its use then what is Mr Troll?
they will go to war if the mic thinks theres is profit from it. which looks to be so
What’s happening is a cold war, the greatest invention by banker corporations over the last 50 years.
It creates an enemy to which massive amounts of military weaponry is financed for all sides, it increases the amount of petroleum products for more airplanes, tanks, and troop movements, and it gives the politicians the greatest pork opportunities ever devised to bring taxpayer money to their districts in constant preparations for war.
And, what’s more, a cold war can operate simultaneously with hot spot wars such as Afghanistan and Iraq where the military constantly destroys villages and infrastructure and multinational corporations can use tax money to rebuild them and transfer America’s wealth to the MIC – courtesy of the Federal Reserve.
All this is made possible by creating one single ingredient—an enemy.
With Russia? Over Crimea? I find that hard to believe.
This would only "work" if you went to war with Putin himself. So far...only jibber jabber.
"Mr. Putin’s chess game does not end in Crimea."
Tyler, you're beginning to sound like the MSM. Cheap fear mongering and analogizing to WWII and Hitler? I guess Putin should bend over and let the West sodomize him and the Russian people, and take all of their money and resources, like so many other countries have. Has the cabal bought Zero Hedge too?
Pax Americana's current supremacy is based on a proclaimed vision of a nation towering like a colossus over the world with no rivals to challenge its mantra of land of the free and home of the brave, in the name of freedom and democracy, but built on massive military supremacy.
"Our way of life non negotiable, our nation aswerable to no one but our own elected, we tolerate no challenge from nation or rouge state. And our reserve currency is the incarnation of our own national hegemony over the world".
This has been the legacy of the 1991 conquest of Iraq and the official affirmation of the NWO under Potus Bush's aegis after the implosion of its historical ideological rival's empire, the USSR. Coincidently, this collapse also initiated the subsequent demise of the USSR's equally hegemonic ideology that dominated half the world in the wake of the Yalta divide and rule treaty. As Communist China entered the realm of Capitalist national partner to the Universal Empire.
Based on this premise its not surprising that this affirmation and its fundamental logic pitches the Universal Empire in recurrent conflicts of ITS OWN coNcoTION-- witness Gulf of Tonkin and Bay of Pigs ventures just as WMD Iraq-- to defuse whereever it feels necessary the nascent embers of revolt or regional challenge.
However, all empires fall into the sweet and insidious trap of total power morphing into its own Nemesis, breeding inordinate greed and blinding hubris to sow the seeds of internal destruction.
We are there in Pax Americana today and 2008 Lehman moment as now the resurrection of the Cold War imperial divide, thanks to the corruption of the energy thread of ME and pre-eminnece of Russia's new resurgence in this area, means that the Universal Empire is now seriously in big trouble.
Does it need to start a war with Russia?
The question should be : can it finsish the wars it has already started on a quasi permanent basis in the name of its hegemony to its own continued advantage...
It crossed the Rubicon with the hijacking of MH370, more i cannot say.
All those things you mentioned were predicated on some semblance of moral high ground the US once aspired to climb and reside in. It may have been a lofty and worthwhile aspiration, but I can't even see that High ground anymore....anywhere.
It's all below sea level.
Ameweeka has always been a nation of thugs and cowards, everybody knows that.
Even their emblema is a piece of shit bird :
“Franklin’s Letter to His Daughter (excerpt)
“For my own part I wish the Bald Eagle had not been chosen the Representative of our Country. He is a Bird of bad moral Character. He does not get his Living honestly. You may have seen him perched on some dead Tree near the River, where, too lazy to fish for himself, he watches the Labour of the Fishing Hawk; and when that diligent Bird has at length taken a Fish, and is bearing it to his Nest for the Support of his Mate and young Ones, the Bald Eagle pursues him and takes it from him.
“With all this Injustice, he is never in good Case but like those among Men who live by Sharping & Robbing he is generally poor and often very lousy. Besides he is a rank Coward: The little King Bird not bigger than a Sparrow attacks him boldly and drives him out of the District. He is therefore by no means a proper Emblem for the brave and honest Cincinnati of America who have driven all the King birds from our Country…
“I am on this account not displeased that the Figure is not known as a Bald Eagle, but looks more like a Turkey. For the Truth the Turkey is in Comparison a much more respectable Bird, and withal a true original Native of America… He is besides, though a little vain & silly, a Bird of Courage, and would not hesitate to attack a Grenadier of the British Guards who should presume to invade his Farm Yard with a red Coat on.”
”
link to greatseal.com
In retrospect clearly the best choice there could have been.
It never existed. It's a nation built on slavery and mass slaughter. Manifest Destiny is simply a mix of Christianity and Judaism acting as purification for all the bodies.
Ever watch Twins? America is Danny DeVito, the waste product of a genetic experiment.
American weaponry system assets are too expansive to start a war with Russia and China. It is not worth it.
what about all the ethnic Russians in Alaska?
Most Russians left Alaska after the US took over in 1867 (not that there were many of them to begin with).
I wonder to what extent Putin believes in his doctrine that foreign countries are allowed to violate national sovereignty when ethnicities they are associated with feel threatened? Does that apply to, say, Chechnya?
We still have a receipt for Alaska around here somewhere...
You know nothing about Chechnya.
Media dumb you down much?
I think someone should ask Sarah Palin about that one! She's got the direct line of sight with Russia, ya know?!
Americans have an enemy within whom they have long needed to go to war. And it’s not Russia. It’s the tyrannical banking cartel that ousted the elected government of Ukraine and ousted representative government in American -- backing it up with a loss of media freedom and wave after wave of Third World illegal immigration, the latter a massive vote for the financial elites’ expanding, socialistic, one-world police State.
The Question is: Will the American people go to war with the international bankers who have not only commandeered Western and Eastern Europe but the former land of the free, the United States of America?
NATO doesn’t work for the people, including the people of the US; it was intended as a stepping stone into an international police force controlled by the bankers. But huge missteps in the Middle East and Eurasia are revealing NATO as a dangerous enemy in the world. For example:
“What most Americans remained unaware of, however, was the long term secret support by NATO member states for Chechen terrorists ('rebels'), as part of the west's struggle with Russia for control of pipeline corridors transporting oil and gas out of the Caspian sea region following the dissolution of the Soviet Union at the end of 1991.
“The type of terror that occurred in Boston on 15 April 2013 has been, at various times during their civil war, a near daily experience for those who live in Chechnya. It is an experience whose delivery has been assisted by the hidden hand of NATO, the most lethal and hypocritical military alliance of modern times. -- NATO's Secret Islamic Jihad
Oil And The Battle For Chechnya: A Caucasian Republic In An Oil And Gas Transit Corridor Between The Caspian And Black Seas, nlpwessex.org
"At least 11 of the 9/11 al-Qaeda hijackers travelled to Chechnya between 1996 and 2000."
-- London Times, 20 April 2013, Print Edition, P 9
"Delivering one of his most scathing attacks on the US, Mr Gorbachev told The Daily Telegraph that a US military build-up was under way to contain a resurgent Russia. From Nato's expansion plans in the former Soviet Union to Washington's proposals for a bigger defense budget and a missile shield in central Europe, the US was deliberately quashing hopes for permanent peace with Russia, Mr Gorbachev said. 'We had 10 years after the Cold War to build a new world order and yet we squandered them,' he said..... 'I sometimes have a feeling that the United States is going to wage war against the entire world.'... Relations have further deteriorated after Nato promised eventual membership to Georgia and Ukraine, a move interpreted by Mr Gorbachev as an attempt to extend America's sphere of influence into Russia's backyard. ‘The Americans promised that Nato wouldn't move beyond the boundaries of Germany after the Cold War but now half of central and eastern Europe are members, so what happened to their promises? It shows they cannot be trusted.’ ....Gorbachev ..... quoting a Russian documentary on state television, suggested that Margaret Thatcher had supplied weapons to Chechen terrorists."--
Gorbachev: US could start new Cold War
Daily Telegraph, 7 May 2008
http://www.nlpwessex.org/docs/ukraine-caspian.htm
Preach it, brother!
For almost 10,000 years the enemy has been government, not banking.
Banking is just the scapegoat du jour.
It’s not government; it’s not banking; it is banker governments that have created world war.
It is the existence of the Federal Reserve System that provides this capacity for modern warfare.
I quote Lew Rockwell, chairman and CEO of the Ludwig von Mises Institute :
“If the goal of the state is the complete monopolization of money under an infinitely flexible paper-money system, there is no better path for the state than the creation of a central bank. This is the greatest achievement for the victory of power over liberty…
“Before the creation of the Federal Reserve, the idea of American entry into the conflict that became World War I would have been inconceivable. In fact, it was a highly unpopular idea, and Woodrow Wilson himself campaigned on a platform that promised to keep us out of war. But with a money monopoly, all things seem possible. It was a mere four years after the Fed was invented under the guise of scientific policy planning that the real agenda became obvious. The Fed would fund the U.S. entry into World War I…
“Fast–forward to the Iraq War, which has all the features of a conflict born of the power to print money. There was a time when the decision to go to war involved real debate in the U.S. House of Representatives. And what was this debate about? It was about resources, and the power to tax. But once the executive state was unhinged from the need to rely on tax dollars, and did not have to worry about finding willing buyers for its unbacked debt instruments, the political debate about war was silenced…”
As Rockwell says, The Murderous Fed… central banking and militarism are intimately linked.
So the Bigmouth In Chief once again wrote a check he refuses to cash.
I don't support going to war with Russia over a country that's on Russia's border, has elected pro-Russian governments for most of its history, and is currently run by an unconstitutionally-installed government.... but seriously, why can't BO just keep his mouth shut if he's not going to follow through?
Has it ever occurred to you, Mr. Robins, that what the American people want has nothing to do with US policy?
All of mankind's problem in a nutshell.
"The Second World War was sparked by Warsaw’s resistance to Berlin’s demand to annex the Polish Corridor, a small stretch of land—smaller than Crimea—separating the German provinces of Pomerania and East Prussia. Hitler responded by invading Poland and partitioning it with the Soviet Union. Britain and France had pledged to defend Polish independence, and two days after Germany invaded, they declared war."
Let's not forget that France and England had been building airbases in Poland along that German border. Nope, no instigation there. Same as it ever was.
Er, Hitler had already militarized the Rhineland, annexed Austria, and explicitly threatened force if he didn't get the Sudetenland. If anyone was instigating it sure as hell wasn't the UK and France.
Who'll volunteer to die first for the messiah, the Nobel Prince of Peace, leading from behind?
"Could the current crisis expand to touch NATO? The developing situation in Ukraine has been compared to Germany’s absorption of Austria in 1938, or the subsequent partition and dismemberment of Czechoslovakia. Hillary Clinton compared Russian president Vladimir Putin to Adolf Hitler, which by extension puts President Obama in the role of British prime minister Neville Chamberlain, who famously failed to achieve “peace in our time” at Munich."...
I didn't know Ukraine was part of NATO??? All I know is that an Orange Revolution and a second attempt with a hostile Right Sector Neo-Nazi government ii attempting to get it membership that we know will ultimately fail. Here talk to this Russian about the ties between both countries that border one another and the "mop up" of the remaining "putsch" that will be neutralized annexing the Western part of the Country ultimately into the arms of Russia where it belongs. As he puts it so succinctly in this discussion, the U.S. Government has much to lose including the secure resupply routes that they've enjoyed over the last 12 years through Russia to get to that other place we have military bases and control over.
To the editors of The National Interest
What an interesting hypothetical situation you've come up with and the choices of names and Countries to attach them with?.....
Does the Weekly Standard help you come up with these ideas? Or do you do this on your own???...
No, Russia is not going to touch the Baltics or Poland or Finland. The USSR is long gone. Russia has two problems. Too much territory and too few people. Mass resources locked up in this huge nation waiting for labor and capital to resource them. Ah, WTF does Russia need these unhappy lands for? Nothing! Poles hate Russians, Balts hate Russians, Finns hate Russians. Russia is going to defend itself from NATO advances, Russia is not going to advance on NATO. The US created the Ukraine revolution and spent 5 billion on it, now planning to pump billions more to advance it's military forces. Crimea is Russia, always has been in modern history. Get over it imperial war mongers! Just get a life, too bad, you don't get to put NATO missiles and USN fleet in Sveastopol. Sore losers!
Any idea that Russia is trying to rebuild the USSR is nuts, but yes, when advanced upon they will respond. So NATO, why not stop bear baiting. Poland is safe, the Baltics are safe and Finland is safe. The elite rulers of the west want war because they can see that their criminal bankers have looted our peoples and we are getting pissed! Thus, gin up war so we MUST remain loyal patriots to Goldman Sachs and the fucking whores in Washington.
The same cunts are always back screaming for war, you want war, go fight it yourself, or shut the fuck up about it.
I agree that it makes no sense for Russia to attack the Baltic states or Poland. They have too many serious problems within their own country, which are currently being papered over by high oil prices.
It also made no sense for Hitler to invade the USSR when he did. The Middle East -- which would be a great possession logistically -- was pretty much there for the taking but he ignored the opportunity, because his ideology said he had to exterminate the Slavs first.
Is Putin a more rational actor here? I don't know. He did say that the collapse of the USSR was the greatest tragedy of the 20th century, implying he wants something like it to return.
It was in the Tom Clancy book...so the neocons will scream for it to happen..."What would Tom Clancy Putin do ?"
Hitler invade Russia? "Ice Breaker" or "The Chief Culprit" Suvarov
Premptive.
You misunderstand what Putin was expressing.
JB
Ditto.
I understand that "ZH" has to pay the bills and invite "trash" on-board from time-to-time to offer opposing viewpoints in order to frame a debate properly, but I'm starting to get a little frustrated with some of the newsworthy choices being given time here like this one and The Diplomat. Better to pull out a Democracy Now or a Alexander Cockburn's Counterpunch that has at least some respect for the job and substance to what they report.
Just sayin!
i feel the same about the pro putin sentiment.
we are in a propaganda war. there is no truth.
just sayin'
But l_p,
Just imagine if George Soros/Kagan & pals with the help of foreign intelligence organizations who by the way are violating their international treaty obligations to that Country in question and it's legitimately elected government (with international observers approving it in 2010) hadn't decided to unilaterally overthrow it through the use of force?... And this of course was after a failed attempt 10 years earlier???....
You and I wouldn't even be responding here right now!
Correct???
Just sayin!!!
i'm perfectly aware of all this, as everybody else on zh. point being is that reporting, most always, has an objective and bias. i'm yet to see one which would draw lines not between russia/ussa but between 'we the people'/governments. war (mongering) is only good for the rulers to control the populace, not for the little guy who will pay the price with his taxes or worse, with his blood.
I disagree with everything, except Finland.
They won't be on Vlad's tour list because they kick bear ass like no one else.
Period.
finnish are smart. 100% of their army is to built to fight one enemy and one enemy only but nobody even mentions who it is. furthermore, they keep friendly relations with russia.
It is time to stop all the talk of "marching to war". The bottom line is that war is UNACCEPTABLE!
Just the fact that the people suffer the consequences of war while the elites sit in their palaces promoting war plans and profiting from the military expenditures should be enough to stop the insanity.
It is time that the US stopped putting neocons in lead positions of the state department/diplomat corps. If we spent the time and money that we have devoted in producing the war material and mindset to world wide diplomatic solutions that benefit not just US corporate intersts, but the people worldwide, then we might (might!) be able to reverse the war mindset that has permeated our environment.
It is time for more cooperation and less raping for elites benefit. Time to treat all with the respect deserving of all human beings.
Nothing that you deem desirable is possible as long as government exists.
Don't worry, the mighty armies of Europe can defend themselves.
Biggest ennemy of Europe these days is the US of A, and their hench men in Brussel or governments.
This is clearly the situation.
We will go 'smart' war this time like: currency/trade war, cyber/facebook war or 'free vodka/weed for all russians'.
In a non-nuclear war I think the Russians would beat the Americans.
The US isn't sneaky enough and their strategy is always generally the same - blast through the front door with massive firepower.
I thought the ZH party line was that the US was secretly behind every world event that Putin and the PRC don't like.
The zh party line USED to resemble something of a general criticism towards a one-party system used to perpetuate a US debt based monetary system and inflationary monetary policy that's been exported all over the world creating economic distortions, political instability, and unsustainable growth requirements.
Now the mantra seems much simpler and resembles something more along the lines of 'the world would be a better place without china, russia, and the moooslims.'
Troll. CIA most likely. Attack. Undermine. Sarcasm. Always take opposite point of view. No arguments supported with undisputed FACTS. You and your ilk are not welcome here.
This is all Bush's fault, since it is occuring during the obowelmovement...
It's the idiot voter's fault.
The first cause.
Putin doesn't have Hitler's Wehrmacht or Luftwaffe so the idea that he send his conscript army on sustained combat operations into Poland or anyplace else in Eastern Europe is more a fantasy than a reality. I suppose he could overrun a Baltic state or two but I'm skeptical he could even drive to Kiev were the Ukrainians to put up a fight. Ukraine is a big place. His tanks would be hundreds of miles from their bases with vulnerable supply lines. Presumably NATO would provide the Ukrainians with real time intelligence as to Russian forces every move. That might be the bigger danger. A desperate Putin, facing a military disaster that would topple his regime, reaching for his nuclear arsenal to save some trapped Russian Army divisions and then what....!
Sure, let's go to war! We'll just whip out our Visa, American Express, and Master Cards and then tax the remaining 5 people in the US who still pay taxes...
Given the choice with out the threat of being shipped off to prison, I think most Russians privately would like the west lifestyle so put some cyanide in his stoli & move on...
Have you been to Russia and asked them their preference or are you just making an assumption? Americans tend to think that EVERYONE else in the world spends every waking moment dreaming of being an American, but I know this is not true. It's just part of the American propaganda machine that helps the US owners keep their herd docile.
Given the choice with out the threat of being shipped off to prison, I think most Russians privately would like the west lifestyle so put some cyanide in his stoli & move on...
I doubt we would got to war with Russia. but, if we did I would seriously consider moving my family to a country in the Southern Hemisphere as the jingo's in each respective country killed each other off in their stupid-ass turf wars. Actually, the world would likely be a better place with so many jingos removed, but they usually create a ton of collateral damage in the process. Besides, the bankers always are the winners when the smoke clears and the jingos are just their pawns for more profit.
http://www.thewarningsecondcoming.com/god-the-father-europe-will-be-first-target-of-red-dragon-followed-by-the-usa/
Article 5 is meaningless when dealing with a nuclear nation. Any war with Russia would go nuclear in days.
Let the USA uphold the constitution first. Hypocrites!
so much crap. some of you should be working in the pentagon, but then maybe you already are. LOL
the question is not 'would they' . the question is "how" would they.
we have a huge fucking military, and state department, and chamber of commerce, and banking system, and petroleum reserves.
HOW. and if 'hot' war, then when? now?
don't forget. we have not stopped being at pax americana since ww2. it never ends bitches.
There's a new Hitler afoot, all right. But instead of tanks and infantry and planes, the Fourth Reich invades with black ops and debt.
The current Reich and fascist shithole (even if pinkish Mickey mouse style) is of course the United Slaves of Ameweeka.
The biggest piece of shit to ever roam the earth, by far, from start to finish.
Time to nuke that heap of trash.
The sooner, the better.
(Just a little words exercise, list of characters, that is)
you misrabell cringhinging cowards.
poland does not knead nato we have a secret weepon it is called the pole.
we giants of the tatra and gdansk ship yards will fight any in comers.
.russki do not incursion on are sacred sauerkraut cabbage patches.
putin nose this.
waking up the sleeping pole is at your peril.
we bring manly hurts to you putin ilikes a bear with a sore heads.
paolish pain in vladdy vostock and yalta.
if your spats nats cum in the land of the pole we brings startlingrads to moscows.
Best pollack joke I ever heard.
Made my Sunday. Thanks for that.
US get butt kicked.
I'll take the other side of that trade, they don't let O touch the military machine.
Would USA go to war with Russia: No
Would USSA go to war with Russia: That's the plan
THE NEO-CONS WANT WAR,..PERIOD. THEY DONT NEED A REASON OR MOTIVE, JUST THE RIGHT FALSE FLAG!
will the US go to war with Russia?
I guess that depends on how much they value the petrodollar as war may be the only way to save it now, if it can still be saved at all that is.
on the other hand it has been what, roughly 70 years since our last global military conflict? much like that devastating cat 5 hurricane that makes landfall, the super cluster of tornado's that levels entire towns or any other natural disaster it's never a question of if , but when.
Russia, China, Iran or some combination thereof, who knows with tensions being what they are in the world today...
but one thing is certain, sooner or later we humans will find a reason and the pale pep talks of fighting for freedom or justice or for those who can not fight for themselves or whatever will be repeated and the world will be plunged into yet another "war to end all wars".
if history shows us anything it's that war is unavoidable almost as if it is a part of human nature.
"War to end all wars"
This next one will be.
"War to end all wars"
This next one will be.
With six pages of comments below, "it will soon be forgotten what we say here." But anyhow, here's my two cents: Those who are now stoking anti-Russian sentiment fall into two categories: Military numbskulls who cannot adjust their thinking from cold war days, and those with a private agenda like Brzezinski and his followers who put Polish patriotism ahead of US loyalty - not very different from the Zionists.