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Interpreting Putin's Decision

Tyler Durden's picture




 

Submitted by Wei Zongyou via The Diplomat,

People around the world were astounded by Vladimir Putin’s rapid decision to annex Crimea in response to the latter’s referendum to secede from Ukraine and join Russia, which Kiev and the West view as illegal. The decision also drew worldwide criticism and vehement condemnation by the West and Ukraine, and triggered a second wave of economic sanctions from the United States, and soon afterwards Europe. Relations between Russia and the West are at their chilliest since the end of the Cold War.

So why has Putin risked Russia’s economic welfare and political space to swallow Crimea, push Ukraine out, and alienate the entire Western world? Is Putin “in another world” as German Chancellor Angela Merkel claimed he is? In my opinion, there are at least two considerations behind Putin’s decision.

The first is the realist, geo-political consideration. In Putin’s world, since the collapse of the former Soviet Union, Russia has lost nearly one fourth of its geography, one half of its population, and more than half of its GDP. Among the “lost” territories are those that are strategically important or militarily advanced, such as Ukraine and the Baltic states. With the eastward expansion of NATO, and the integration of former Soviet satellite states and republics in Eastern Europe and the Baltics into Europe, the traditional buffer zone between Russia and the West is increasingly squeezed and Russia’s space for strategic maneuvering becomes smaller with each year. When Russia craved for entry into the West, this might not have been particularly worrisome or embarrassing for Moscow. But since Russian leaders decided long ago that joining the West was neither particularly helpful to Russia’s political standing nor particularly attractive in terms of economic gains, it has begun to view the expansion of the West at its own strategic expense as both ill-intentioned and threatening.

Ukraine holds a unique position in Russia’s geo-strategic consideration. First, it is crucial territory in the passage of Russia’s oil exports to Europe. Each year more than one third of the oil Russia ships to Europe travels via the Ukraine pipeline. Second, Crimea gives Russia’s Black Sea Fleet access to the Black Sea. If the pro-West Kiev government were to have decided to end its lease to the Russian naval base in Crimea, Russia would have lost its strategic gateway to the Black Sea and the Mediterranean Sea. Third, Ukraine is deemed the most crucial member of Russia’s Eurasia Union project, an economic and strategic plan to closely connect Russia, Belarus, Ukraine, and Central Asia. If all goes according to plan, this union will integrate these former Soviet republics and now independent countries economically, politically, and diplomatically with Russia, and go some way to restoring the glory of the Soviet empire at its peak. The “coup d’état” in Kiev and the political orientation of the new government put all these things in jeopardy, if Russia remains disinterested and passive.

The second consideration is more psychological in nature. Following the end of Cold War, embracing the West was the first priority of Russian foreign policy. But to Moscow’s dismay, it found that the West still harbored strong reservations and considerable distrust. Years spent courting and wooing provided little of what Russia craved most: equal membership in the West and economic prosperity. Though Russia became part of the exclusive G8, it never enjoyed the full status and say of the other seven members, always remaining an “other.” Economically, the shock remedy proposed by the West and faithfully implemented by Boris Yeltsin didn’t bring the expected economic benefit. Instead, it took Russia’s economy into freefall, leaving the average Russian worse off than before. Russia’s look West ended in humiliation and disaster.

It was Putin who saved Russia from its miserable condition. He readjusted both Russia’s domestic and foreign policies, and distanced the country from the West, instead seeking opportunities to resurrect past Soviet glories. As the Russian economy improved, the West found that its time was passing. The 2008 economic crisis hit the U.S. and Europe hard and they found themselves more reliant on the emerging powers, Russia included. It is Britain, France, and even Germany who are now busy appealing to Russian oil bacons to buy more and invest more. The balance of power between Russia and the West has shifted. The small war in Georgia in the summer of 2008 only strengthened this trend and the response from the West impressed Russia greatly: Europe is rotten and the U.S. has become too weak to lead. Then came the Arab Spring and the Syria crisis. In the former case, the U.S. “led from behind,” and in the latter it was Russia that decided the course of the Syria civil war.

Russians, and especially Putin learned a hard lesson from the post-Cold War romance with the West: For all the talk of democracy and freedom, the fact remains that the strong dictate to the weak.

With Europe rotten and United States weakened, a resurgent and confident Russia will definitely not let a geo-strategically important former Soviet republic fall entirely into the West’s camp. By annexing Crimea, Putin not only secured Russia’s naval base and its strategic gateway to the Black Sea, he also sent a powerful message to Ukraine and the West: Ignore Russia’s legitimate strategic concerns at your own peril.

 

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Sun, 03/23/2014 - 20:53 | 4583843 CoonT
CoonT's picture

haha

 

Sun, 03/23/2014 - 20:58 | 4583862 wee-weed up
wee-weed up's picture

Very easy to figure out Putin's decision...

He knows who America's current president is.

Sun, 03/23/2014 - 21:01 | 4583867 Manthong
Manthong's picture

So, Angela.. how much of Putin’s world is re-hypothecated?

.. and which world are you (and the rest of the west) in?

Sun, 03/23/2014 - 21:07 | 4583880 Berspankme
Berspankme's picture

Talk about out of touch with reality- choose any western leader

Sun, 03/23/2014 - 21:35 | 4583954 Ifigenia
Ifigenia's picture

and western main stream media, because the majority of citizens of the World are neutral to benevolent to Russia move.

Sun, 03/23/2014 - 22:01 | 4584023 EscapingProgress
EscapingProgress's picture

The barbarians are at the gate. Washington's power is dwindling by the day. Putin has nothing to fear except mindless babbling from Western douchebags.

Sun, 03/23/2014 - 22:26 | 4584114 wee-weed up
wee-weed up's picture

Yep, meanwhile Putin is making lovie-dovie with the Chicoms...

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-03-23/russia-returns-favor-sees-chine...

Sun, 03/23/2014 - 23:39 | 4584329 aVileRat
aVileRat's picture

Interesting that there is no coverage for the last 2 weeks on the Taiwan protests against the Taipei government's wishes to move closer to China via a free trade agreement (and hollowing out of the Taiwan manufacturing story). Yet all the current Ukranian conflict started with a revolt in a pivot to EU vs. Russia.

Ma has already indicated he will move to China after his term ends. If someone were looking, I would say it has plenty of similarities to the Yanukovich bugout plan.

Just pointing out some dots to connect.

 

Sun, 03/23/2014 - 23:55 | 4584377 cornflakesdisease
cornflakesdisease's picture

May be part of the big plan.  The US & China are connected at the hip.  If Russia becomes dependant on China, this may be exactly what the Us wants.  Don't forget, China's banking system owns 16% of the Federal Reserve System by proxy.  They are all one happy family.

Mon, 03/24/2014 - 05:02 | 4584723 eurogold
eurogold's picture

No Putin is not "in another World" rather he recognised and reacted appropriately to the illegal provocations of the West (ie; uprising / protesters supported by the West ). Now he is made out to be the bad guy.

Mon, 03/24/2014 - 13:33 | 4586131 merizobeach
merizobeach's picture

I fucking knew it!  As I moved the mouse to click on this article, I asked "WTF is this--another "Diplomat" article?"  Lame shit.

Mon, 03/24/2014 - 09:35 | 4585135 sessinpo
sessinpo's picture

cornflakesdisease       May be part of the big plan.  The US & China are connected at the hip.  If Russia becomes dependant on China, this may be exactly what the Us wants.  Don't forget, China's banking system owns 16% of the Federal Reserve System by proxy.  They are all one happy family.

---

This is a malinformed or retarded post.

First of all, China never owned more then 8% of US debt. And China has been divesting itself of that debt at a rapid rate while importing gold.

Secondly, the largest trading partner with China is the European Union, not the US. And who is the EU dependent for energy? Russia. Thus Russia/China have a strangle hold on Europe.

Mon, 03/24/2014 - 01:21 | 4584525 StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture

Better question:  How's that physical gold repatriation going for Germany?

Sun, 03/23/2014 - 21:31 | 4583944 Antifaschistische
Antifaschistische's picture

he also knows, every TRILLION we go into debt, our strategic options become more and more constrained.

If it weren't for TARP, QE, Obamacare, etc, and the EU debt tsunami..Putin may not have pulled this off.

As for the Ukraine, why they want to jump on the sinking EURO ship is a little beyond me, unless it's just a desperate triumph of hope.

Sun, 03/23/2014 - 21:39 | 4583960 Ifigenia
Ifigenia's picture

The elected government postpone signature to Association with EU and was forced out by Vitoria Nulland coup. Just the installed Junata in Kiev want it. So, i am not sure the ukrainians want to jump in EU.

Mon, 03/24/2014 - 02:51 | 4584612 silvermail
silvermail's picture

No need to repeat the false stamps of Western propaganda. Yanukovych today is the sole legitimate President of Ukraine. It does not depend on its location. And the more it does not depend on the opinion of the U.S., the EU and NATO.
It depends only on the Constitution of Ukraine.

Sun, 03/23/2014 - 23:18 | 4584288 Jack Burton
Jack Burton's picture

West Ukraine wants to be saved by the EU. Also, most of the young want an EU right to move. I suggest that when EU absorbs Ukraine, at least 2 million under 30's move within a year. Ask them what they want, it is France, England and Germany. They want outof Ukraine! And who can blame them. I predict Ukraine will never have a vital economy. At best they will be a debt slave with high payments to western banks, low wage slave jobs for the big corporate interests that will secure all Ukrainan industry and agricultrue. The aveage person will be poverty stricken and debt ridden for all of time. Brussels is a Bankers agent, they do big banks bidding and server the large corporate entities of the west.

Mon, 03/24/2014 - 08:49 | 4584937 angryBuddhist
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More precicely, western Ukraine doesn't produce shit for their economy and as a result have dreams and hopes of sucking off the hind tit of the EU (which is all but dried up by now). The east is populated by people who actually work for a living and produce something and they don't want to see themselves becoming exploited by the EU (and the west in general) and have the fruits of their labor being sucked away via debt and bad governmental policy. Historically they have traded to the east and have fared rather well with that arrangement and do not want this to change. Can you blame them?

Sun, 03/23/2014 - 21:36 | 4583956 zionhead
zionhead's picture

Imagine Putin and his KGB buddy's watching all the "Chicago-Bath-House Tapes", all 20+ years of them; laughing their asses off every night drinking vodka.

Then one morning PUTIN is told "Barry" is on the phone and wants to talk ... what the fuck does PUTIN say?

[ Think for a minute that REV Wright and Cass Sunstein, and Rahm Emanuel, didn't record 20+ years of Sexcapades? Damn straight they did. ]

Sun, 03/23/2014 - 22:10 | 4584051 fxrxexexdxoxmx
fxrxexexdxoxmx's picture

You think Barry cares if anyone sees the videos of him being a spem catching drag queen. The media would come to his aid and tell everyone that this is great news, now he and Moochelle can finally have the wedding where Barry wears the dress and Moocelle can wear her lumberjack outfit.

Sun, 03/23/2014 - 22:22 | 4584099 wee-weed up
wee-weed up's picture

America's sycophant Obozo-lovin' MSM mean diddly-squat to Putie-Poot and his henchmen.

Sun, 03/23/2014 - 23:52 | 4584213 Rakshas
Rakshas's picture

It would be interesting to know who America's current president is..... though I have no doubt that Putin knows a lot more than we do about Barry son of Stanley Ann and I'm sure he has an interesting dossier of the goings on during the Indonesian genocide to which our Chameleon-in Chief was exposed - poor kid but I think such things make for very dangerous leaders.  Though I shouldn't be too hasty, there is every possibility that David Fukinnutsafeller and ZBig nurtured our boy along quite nicely...... well ........ maybe??

With each passing administration it seems the message is louder and clearer - you don't matter, on any level at any time we OWN you full stop!! Slavelandia, Dumbfukistan, pick your GC'ism my only ponderance is what is going to come through that door next.......

Sun, 03/23/2014 - 23:23 | 4584298 kchrisc
kchrisc's picture

And how much debt and reliance upon the Petro$ ponzi the DC US has.

Sort of like playing poker when you have just 5 cards and he's holding the rest of the deck--better fold.

 

"Guillotine poker: I'll see your bankster and raise you one pol."

Mon, 03/24/2014 - 01:51 | 4584554 BlackVoid
BlackVoid's picture

If you believe the president actually decides on anything you know nothing. It does not matter who the president is, or if it does, he is murdered.

Mon, 03/24/2014 - 10:43 | 4585385 Dixie Rect
Dixie Rect's picture

What's an oil bacon?

Sun, 03/23/2014 - 21:01 | 4583866 silvermail
silvermail's picture

Crimea was not "annexed" by Russia. The first, Crimea proclaimed the declaration of independence, and only then became part of Russia. Thus, Crimea became part of Russia as an independent subject. This is not an "annexation" in terms of jurisprudence.

Sun, 03/23/2014 - 21:08 | 4583886 silvermail
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First of all, lawyers have to give the answer to one simple but important question:
Legally or illegally was change of power in Ukraine.
Lawyers should make ordinary legal examination and issue a final legal opinion.
I assure you that in the world there is no lawyer who can put his signature under the statement about "the legality of armed rebellion in Kiev."

Thus, in terms of Law , so-called "new government in Kiev", is illegal and illegitimate . It is not government power. This is criminal rebels and an impostors. And it does not depend on the opinion of the U.S., the EU and NATO. It says Law.

Sun, 03/23/2014 - 21:12 | 4583893 El Vaquero
El Vaquero's picture

What do lawyers matter when Russia has armor, aircraft and guns and is willing to use them when push comes to shove? 

 

(Thankfully, push has not yet come to shove.)

Sun, 03/23/2014 - 21:34 | 4583952 Mine Is Bigger
Mine Is Bigger's picture

The same argument applies even more to the U.S. and the EU.  Yet, they are the ones crying over the "illegality" of Crimea's decision.

Sun, 03/23/2014 - 22:11 | 4584059 Reaper
Reaper's picture

President Andrew Jackson replied to the US Supreme Court, defying its order, "You and what army?" All courts' decisions and their law interpretations are enforced at their base level by the armed agents of the controlling government. Putin's response to the legalese, "You and what army?"

Mon, 03/24/2014 - 00:08 | 4584401 old naughty
old naughty's picture

Are these States resolved to ensure national guards would side with own states;  or to help GOP in changing voting rules?

Is Put-in putting us on asking “You and what army?” or is he likely exploring/exploiting the undercurrent?

200,000 at least…And you can care about legality, or not. “I care not who writes the laws?”

Syria-Ukraine--- “Fxxk the EU”.   As “Knuckles” threaded in the China Gold piece: “

somewhere past discovery and first notice ((bad pun, notice, did you notice))... sheesh

 

Fxxk the world?

 

...wonder what happened to MH370?

Sun, 03/23/2014 - 21:27 | 4583937 BraveSirRobin
BraveSirRobin's picture

Obama is Putin's bitch!

Obama is Reggie Love's Bitch!

Sun, 03/23/2014 - 21:34 | 4583953 nmewn
nmewn's picture

"legality of armed rebellion..."

lol...every government/dictator in the world has laws against rebellion, armed or otherwise. Does "that law" make it right or just, is the question.

One of the tenents (with an E) of "law" is the consideration of justice.

If I, as a dictator, decide all property should belong to the state, that is to say, me (I'm a dictator, remember?) does that make it right and just?

Sun, 03/23/2014 - 21:48 | 4583988 silvermail
silvermail's picture

Before answering your question, I would like to define what we say about the law ? Or about  the dictatorship?
West is keen not to see violations of the law in the form of an armed coup in Kiev. But at the same time , the West really wants to see the law in violation of the independence of the Crimea. It does not happen . If you want a rule of law, then it should be all over .
Otherwise it looks absurd. I can hit you over the head with a stick . But you will be forced to defend themselves , to save their lives . And you hit me for your protect.
What do you think , can the court consider your actions in isolation from my actions ?
If yes, then you are - criminal. Because you hit the person. And it does not matter why you did it . The main thing that you did. That is what we see today as an example of Kiev and Crimea.

Sun, 03/23/2014 - 22:14 | 4584066 nmewn
nmewn's picture

"Before answering your question, I would like to define what we say about the law ? Or about  the dictatorship?"

No, the question was...and I'll repeat because you don't want to answer...

If I, as a dictator, decide all property should belong to the state, that is to say, me (I'm a dictator, remember?) does that make it right and just?

Your boy Putin had his crony in there (Yanukovich) and the people rebelled against him. We're not talking about the dirtiest shirt here and the crony nature of former "Soviet provinces" and the infestation of oligarchs which permeate nation states across the globe we're talking about the principle of "law" (which you brought up) and the legality vs JUSTICE of rebellion against someone in power going against the desires of the people.

I say people and rebellion trump paper treaties & laws of the state everytime.

Dig up any headless king, tyrant, dictator, president, prime minister or lackey and ask them about the "legality" of their laws...lol.

Sun, 03/23/2014 - 22:31 | 4584124 silvermail
silvermail's picture

"People rebelled against him ?"

What people? Those people who were given $ 5 billion from Washington ? Or those people who live in the Crimea? Or those people who live in the South- East of Ukraine and now want to return back Yanukovych ?

Ok, I say to you more easier. Suppose that the government in Washington will be captured by the Nazis armed with the support of Moscow and for the money of Moscow. Moscow Immediately recognizes the power of the Nazis as the legitimate authority of the United States.
Attention to the question: Will there be obliged to Texas, obey authority pro- Russian fascists who by force of arms , seized power in Washington?

Sun, 03/23/2014 - 22:47 | 4584181 nmewn
nmewn's picture

If you keep refusing to answer my question (because its relevant) the conversation is now over and all the hypotheticals in the world won't mask your refusal to answer a simple question.

Ukrainian land was nationalized by Crimea "a subject of Russia", its theft, by a sovereign nation against another, by oligarchs.

All very legal & proper & just in your head, perhaps but not in mine.

Goodnight.

Mon, 03/24/2014 - 02:51 | 4584508 Rakshas
Rakshas's picture

Well if you are finished with that how about a volley from the peanut gallery..... The process by which a leader is elected should reasonably indicate the rights ascribed to the electorate, for example if the voting booth uses 7.62 mm FMJ projectiles – I really gotta patent that - and the votes are counted before the bulldozers backfill the hole one could reasonably conclude that low voter participation is acceptable and somewhat understandable. In such a scenario the few would determine the fate of the many - or the bus has one driver however you want to look at it.

If however, the electoral process uses paper ballots and more than one selection for peoples representation in government it would seem reasonable that the people have the right to self determination in thier associations both for themselves as persons and thier lands. Further, in such an increasingly hypothetical society one could expect an election should be held to depose an unworthy leader, perhaps a recall process could be used if such means was provided in the process but in any case the clear intent of the majority of the electorate should determine the outcome of the electoral process; hard to say that with a straight face. 

Of course the problem with most constitutions is they do not hold sacred the law of the constitution beyond all means of corruption, often amendments are introduced and written in specifically ambiguous language by lawyers for lawyers and are sufficiently open to interpretation to allow further amendments to be implemented until a point of total subjugation is reached thus giving rise to an Olympus for the elites. For that reason, I believe, some constitutions have been provided with a means of redress to allow the people the opportunity to recalibrate their representative assemblies should a gross imbalance of power form and a dictatorship reign over the land - to wit “A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.”

Mon, 03/24/2014 - 03:01 | 4584624 silvermail
silvermail's picture

You did not ask question. You make a number of statements which are erroneous.
"Dictatorship" - this is what we right now see in Kiev. Answer now themselves to your "question."
Good morning.

Mon, 03/24/2014 - 06:51 | 4584775 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Well, good morning to you too ;-)

"You did not ask question."

I most certainly did ask a question and you even acknowledged it as a question by saying "Before answering your question,..."

And again, the question was:

If I, as a dictator, decide all property should belong to the state, that is to say, me (I'm a dictator, remember?) does that make it right and just?

And there is nothing erroneous about pointing out the fact that popular rebellion supercedes all law. Law is a construct of the state and can be used for good or evil. So, its not erroneous to the object of our discussion, that Stalin (under his laws) is responsible for the deaths of millions of Ukrainians during the Holodomor, either.

It was "legal" as a matter of "Soviet law" wasn't it? But was it right or just?

Now, I'm going to have to leave for work so I'll look for your reply when I return.

Mon, 03/24/2014 - 07:44 | 4584819 silvermail
silvermail's picture

Once again you do not ask me any question. Once again you make some statements that are erroneous. Or false - as you more like.
But I'll try to answer you:

1. If grandma had balls, she would be a grandfather. I did not say and do not say about any "if". I'm talking only about the Facts and Laws: The so-called "new government" in Kiev, is illegal and illegitimate junta. It's a fact.  Ukraine Constitution, was crushed of this so-called "new government",  with the full approval of the West. And it is also a legal fact, without any "but" and "if".

2. Famine in Ukraine in the 30s was in areas inhabited predominantly Russian people. It is south and south-east of Ukraine. Most people died of starvation, were Russian, not Ukrainian.
More than any other, today scream and whine about the hunger, only WH Trolls (as you) and representatives of western Ukraine. But on the western Ukraine famine was not. This is called political prostitution. Because all the so-called "Western Ukraine" in the 30s was state lands of Poland.

3. Stalin never struggled with the Ukrainians, it is not necessary to repeat the nonsense for morons on Faux News propaganda. Stalin fought with the class of prosperous peasants, independed of any nationality of them.
Think about this: Stalin fought with the class of wealthy peasants, regardless of their ethnicity. Therefore famine in 30 years was not only in Ukraine, but in Russia and in Kazakhstan, too.

4. Fraud, Famine and Fascism - The Ukrainian Genocide Myth from Hitler to Harvard
http://www.rationalrevolution.net/special/library/tottlefraud.pdf

Mon, 03/24/2014 - 18:45 | 4587702 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Ok, I've tried to be pleasant, with no luck.

You are a fucking idiot who I have spent waaay too much time on. The Ukraine was not attacking "Russian speakers" in Crimea, so Putin had no right to invade, he is no different than Stalin or Hitler. He didn't go to Kiev to correct some injustice of "constitutional law". He captured land which is not his or Russian no more than Miami is Cuban. "Kulaks" were an enemy of the state and its laws (which you refuse to acknowledge) and it didn't matter if they were Russian, Tatar or Slav, the state was run by bolshevik maggots like Stalin & Lenin and apparently you.

You go ahead and give in to this contrivance of laws and of states and one day, when the rope tightens around your neck because "its the law", I want you to think back on this exchange with me.

Sun, 03/23/2014 - 22:55 | 4584214 jeff montanye
jeff montanye's picture

good points silvermail.  not only these but some 90% of the ukrainian army and most of its navy joined the russian military (they could have left for ukraine or demobilized; some did).  

just because tptb in the u.s. get rewarded after they have left office (e.g. bill clinton worth $100 million) doesn't mean it's any less a bribe.  it just looks a little tidier than 42 kilos of gold left in your apartment.

p.s. it's really "tenets".  with an e but only one n (one can find tenent defined as tenet but really).

Mon, 03/24/2014 - 03:08 | 4584634 silvermail
silvermail's picture

Corruption is everywhere. But the fight against corruption, cannot justify armed insurrection and the seizure of power by the Nazis in Kiev.

http://usnvrepcan.blogspot.com/2014/03/political-corruption-probes-thwar...

Mon, 03/24/2014 - 04:49 | 4584716 chindit13
chindit13's picture

Regarding that $5 billion, you know that the number represents US Aid to Ukraine since 1991.  That means it was carried out under Bush I, Clinton, Bush II, and Obama Terms I & II.  Do you think---even allowing the assumption that the aid was solely aimed at overthrowing each and every Ukrainian Govt since independence---that money works like the turbo-charger in a 1980's vehicle...lots of lag? Do you even know what foreign aid is?

Five billion over 23 years averages to $18 million per month, which is to say the monthly take home pay of a Top 30 hedge fund manager. 

So how much aid did Putin supply Ukraine over the same period?  How much did it cost to have Yushchenko poisoned?

Mon, 03/24/2014 - 05:07 | 4584725 silvermail
silvermail's picture

1. Payment and organization of an illegal armed revolution in the country, through mass murder is a crime. It does not depend on the frequency of payments and the time to prepare for the rebellion.
2. Yushchenko was not poisoned. It was a provocation of Washington, to ensure pity electorate and electoral victory for Yushchenko.

Mon, 03/24/2014 - 02:41 | 4584604 edotabin
edotabin's picture

Dig up any headless king, tyrant, dictator, president, prime minister or lackey and ask them about the "legality" of their laws...lol.

Now, for every headless king, tyrant, dictator, president etc. etc., please dig up about a million people and ask them.

Mon, 03/24/2014 - 01:28 | 4584533 StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture

Torunaga: "There are no 'mitigating circumstances' when it comes to rebellion
against a sovereign lord."
Anjin San: "Unless you win." -- Shogun, James Clavell

Mon, 03/24/2014 - 01:31 | 4584536 Bach's_bitch
Bach's_bitch's picture

 

If I, as a dictator, decide all property should belong to the state, that is to say, me (I'm a dictator, remember?) does that make it right and just?

It depends on the definition of the words "right" and "just". Given the fact that you consider the violent protest in Kiev to be right and just but not the referendum in Crimea, could you clarify your definitions of them?

Mon, 03/24/2014 - 05:28 | 4584720 silvermail
silvermail's picture

Washington did substituted "force of law" on the "right of forces" in Kiev.

But the West does not want to see and recognize this.
The West wants to act on the basis of the law of force. But at the same time, the West wants Russia acted in response exclusively under the force of law. But it never happens. If the West thinks that they can solve any problems in spite of the law by force , you have to expect from Russia exactly the same response.
Because the power of law is not effective against snipers and Molotov cocktails.
Against the force can act only by another force. If the West does not understand this, then we will receive Poplars groves, as the last a response from Russia.

But I do not want to die because of some idiots type McCain, who profit from the arms trade. And I do not want my children to burn in nuclear fire, for the sake of profit McCain and other neocons.
If McCain wants to keep his personal war against Russia, then need give for him any aircraft and send to bomb Russia.
He will shot down again by Russian missile and the all our world will be much more safer.

Mon, 03/24/2014 - 02:29 | 4584543 edotabin
edotabin's picture

No it doesn't make it right or just but it does "make it happen" and that's all that matters in the short term. Long term, things have a way of balancing out but short term, the law is nothing more than the will of the most powerful party at that given moment.

Power A didn't like crony of power B and replaced crony. Now Putin moved his guys in and someone will have to be more forceful to remove him. They might try to undermine the currency and make various backdoor deals/threats etc. Even if the US sent 200k troops and threatened Putin (let's play pretend for a second), how far back could he withdraw? Russia is right there.

Now, what does any of this have to do with tenets, laws and whatever else?

Sun, 03/23/2014 - 21:43 | 4583972 Ifigenia
Ifigenia's picture

i still have some Vitoria Nulland cookies to prove she suborn the ukrainians to use violence to derrube a legitimate government.

Sun, 03/23/2014 - 23:39 | 4584337 TheReplacement
TheReplacement's picture

Enough people showed up to throw out the old ruler.  The rest of the government was kept and it, being legitimately elected, appointed a replacement.  

Not enough people have done the same against this new ruler.  One would suppose the people of Ukraine now accept the government they have, except in some pockets of the east and, of course, Crimea.

At least there wasn't a foreign army roaming the streets in Kiev.  Russia could have pulled this off without so much sabre rattling.  They easily had the Crimea vote and the moral standing to insist there be one - all without a single soldier.

Putin's reason for the invasion were rendered fully transparent as they siezed base after base and the Ukrainians didn't even have guns.  Yeah, there was never any danger to Russians in Crimea but Russia got some small and likely antiquated and poorly maintained naval vessels.  Do the Ukrainians have any guns for their army?  Do they have ammunition?  What happened to all the AKs and 7.62 the US Mil was buying?  Just what IS going on here?

Regardless of the motives behind his tactics, his actions have at least done some potential good outside the situation.  The humiliation of the currecnt President of the US should help his domestic opponents.  Sadly it will probably only be superficial in effect.  The (blue) king is dead.  Long live the (red) king.  And TPTB keep on keepin' on.

Assuming Snowden's revelations are true, who can't the NSA/CIA own or destroy?  They really need be beholden to nobody once they have the goods on or the ability to kill anyone.

 

Mon, 03/24/2014 - 09:39 | 4585150 sessinpo
sessinpo's picture

silvermail          First of all, lawyers have to give the answer to one simple but important question:Legally or illegally was change of power in Ukraine.

-----

Wrong!

First of all, decisions are made upon who has the power to enforce it, regardless of lawyers.

If I held a gun to a lawyers head and KNEW I could get away with murder. It wouldn't matter how much the lawyer pleaded his legal case.

Mon, 03/24/2014 - 11:42 | 4585657 silvermail
silvermail's picture

"First of all, decisions are made upon who has the power to enforce it, regardless of lawyers."

In Kiev, Washington took a gun. Moscow responded through the use of a gun in the Crimea. What's the problem?

Sun, 03/23/2014 - 21:24 | 4583929 nmewn
nmewn's picture

I don't know what law you're trying to interpret but "independence" and "subject" don't quite get together on the same parallel.

"Thus, Crimea became part of Russia as an independent subject."

Might want to work on your jurisprudence a little more ;-)

Sun, 03/23/2014 - 21:37 | 4583958 silvermail
silvermail's picture

Crimean Constitution allows him to be an independent state. Such a right was not even Kosovo.

Sun, 03/23/2014 - 21:50 | 4583994 nmewn
nmewn's picture

There is no "allowing" independence. That, in itself, reflects a higher power.

Independence is taken and secured against that higher power or its not any independence I recognize.

Sun, 03/23/2014 - 21:57 | 4584019 silvermail
silvermail's picture

So you are saying that all states in the U.S. are in perpetual bondage and do not have any legal possibility to withdraw from the U.S.?

Sun, 03/23/2014 - 22:11 | 4584060 Matt
Matt's picture

Are you familiar with the American Civil War?

Mon, 03/24/2014 - 07:51 | 4584829 silvermail
silvermail's picture

I familiar with the American Civil War very superficially.
But the plan of the Northmen "Anaconda", now used by Washington against Russia.

Sun, 03/23/2014 - 23:41 | 4584345 TheReplacement
TheReplacement's picture

He's saying that independence is a universal right to all, individuals and groups.  As with all rights, you have to actively excercise it to have it.  It cannot be given.

Mon, 03/24/2014 - 03:20 | 4584644 silvermail
silvermail's picture

I'm talking about that "Maidan" - it is not "the people of Ukraine."
I'm talking about that "Maidan" - it is a paid of Washington criminal rebels.
Give me $ 5 billion, and the right to dispose of the CIA, the U.S. military and the media.
With these resources, I will replace the legitimate authority anywhere, including Washington.
But it will not be "the people's will."

Sun, 03/23/2014 - 22:30 | 4584119 A Lunatic
A Lunatic's picture

Not much reading comprehension going on around here tonight, lol..........No doubt due to the (multi) generation gap between independence and counterfeit Liberty..........

Sun, 03/23/2014 - 22:49 | 4584191 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Reaching out to my brothers to the east who have no concept of it.

Hey, we try ;-)

Mon, 03/24/2014 - 01:39 | 4584544 Bach's_bitch
Bach's_bitch's picture

Independence is taken and secured against that higher power or its not any independence I recognize.

According to this reasoning, the only way to be independent is to be omnipotent, since any finite power is doomed to be destroyed.

Mon, 03/24/2014 - 10:03 | 4585232 A Lunatic
A Lunatic's picture

Ultimately that is correct. As for mortal man and his relationship with government, in a healthy relationship, the government derives it's power through the consent of the governed. No consent at the individual level means no power for the government; or that's how it is supposed to work. When things become inverted and the government begins to make demands of the citizenry without their explicit consent, independence from such government must be taken back by the people (individual). Sometimes (most always) force is necessary for obvious reasons.....

Sun, 03/23/2014 - 21:55 | 4584010 silvermail
silvermail's picture

I'm sorry for my poor english. The word "subject" I understand "legal subject" as a legal entity.

Sun, 03/23/2014 - 22:26 | 4584104 nmewn
nmewn's picture

I'm not slamming you on your lack of english language skills or interpretation...not at all.

I don't do that.

I'm slamming you for saying anyone can be a subject (a vassal, a serf, dependent on the goodwill of a higher authority) of the crown, of Russia, of Putin or anything and still claim independence.

Obama is a baby in a clown suit. Now, say that about Putin ;-)

Mon, 03/24/2014 - 10:33 | 4585360 sessinpo
sessinpo's picture

nmewn    I don't know what law you're trying to interpret but "independence" and "subject" don't quite get together on the same parallel.

---

Head full of lead. LAW is determined by who can enforce it. I am going to assume you are actually responding to someone else and do not know how to navigate the posting process since I said nothing about "independence" or "subject"

Sun, 03/23/2014 - 22:18 | 4584088 fxrxexexdxoxmx
fxrxexexdxoxmx's picture

Leagally Putin should not have his position in the Russian government since they have tem limits. But he got arround that right? Why did he need Russian troops on the ground for Crimea to become a part of Russia? If there was an honest and long term desire to rejoin Russia it would have been going on for some time before the isssues in Eastern Ukraine.

I can not belive how many pro Putin/ Russian posters are on this site. How come Russia is not the most sought out destination for immigration in the world is beyond me. They are the greatest why are not more people rushing to become citizens, excluding those who have no choice due to  combat forces is a mystery to me.

Sun, 03/23/2014 - 22:38 | 4584150 silvermail
silvermail's picture

Russian troops are stationed in the Crimea under the Treaty. Putin has not increased the number of troops in the Crimea, over the limit, which is specified in the Contract - 24,000 people. Moreover, Putin has a written request for military assistance, on behalf of the legitimate and democratically elected President of Ukraine - Yanukovych.

Sun, 03/23/2014 - 23:48 | 4584360 TheReplacement
TheReplacement's picture

So... Yankabitch can ask for help from Russia as an excuse for Russia to annex part of his country?  When does Yankabitch get his country back?  Sounds like Putin just gave Yankabitch a nice lesson on how to rape your "friends".

What if Yankabitch were re-elected in Ukraine?  Does Russia give up Crimea?  Of course not.  Putin took Crimea.  It could easily been accomplished in a much more diplomatic way.  This was a brute force land grab, no excuses.

Mon, 03/24/2014 - 00:50 | 4584477 Ifigenia
Ifigenia's picture

Interesting subject. Law. The only law i know is of the jungle, if not why Mr. Bush Blair is still at large? If their is some decent law, why nobody put an class, pardon, country action to seek at least indemnization for what USA did in Iraq? Or the victims of subprime ponzi for indemnization by all the wall street, rating agencies include? So the only law i know that is working well was the Law of Jungle. 

Mon, 03/24/2014 - 02:38 | 4584598 edotabin
edotabin's picture

The only thing about the law that matters is enforcement. Nothing else ever did, does or will matter.

Mon, 03/24/2014 - 04:42 | 4584712 silvermail
silvermail's picture

1. Putin had the right to send troops to an official request from Yanukovych. But he did not sending troops forces on the territory of Ukraine . Russian troops were in the Crimea in accordance with the Treaty.
2. Russian troops are not declared independence from the Crimea criminal rebels and fascists who are using weapons and forces seized power in Kiev, contrary to the Constitution of Ukraine. And no Russian troops decided to reunite the Crimea with Russia. It was made by ??the people of Crimea, which exercised its legitimate right to self-determination.
3. Only the blind or an idiot would think, that a referendum in Crimea was held "at gunpoint".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lB14oL6WJR4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDcxzi2UmEs
4. Yanukovych can not be "re-elected". Because right now, Yanukovych is the only legitimate and democratically elected President of Ukraine. Because according to the Constitution of Ukraine , the Parliament does not have the authority to remove the President from power through a simple vote . Parliament has the right only to impeachment proceedings . Impeachment was not.
5. Even with illegal voting in Parliament, there was not the requisite number of votes. Junta seized power in Kiev, is illegal and illegitimate pro-US dictatorship of neofascists.

Sun, 03/23/2014 - 23:11 | 4584260 jeff montanye
jeff montanye's picture

putin needed russian troops to enforce the vote of the crimean electorate.  the amount of force it took to get crimea back as part of russia (given away to ukraine, part of ussr so moot, by khrushchev, a ukrainian, in 1954) was below minimal.  the ukrainian army joined up, mostly. 

given the enormity of the war crimes of the last two u.s. administrations, i welcome someone giving these monsters pause in their rush to world domination.  that i still wish to live in the u.s. is testimony to the wonderful things done an increasingly long time ago and/or by an increasingly besieged part of the population, not to the totalitarian wannabes that currently pervert them.   

Sun, 03/23/2014 - 21:08 | 4583887 Dinero D. Profit
Dinero D. Profit's picture

I did not know Russia has "oil bacons."

Sun, 03/23/2014 - 23:12 | 4584265 jeff montanye
jeff montanye's picture

renewable energy

Mon, 03/24/2014 - 00:32 | 4584447 Buck Johnson
Buck Johnson's picture

"Russians, and especially Putin learned a hard lesson from the post-Cold War romance with the West: For all the talk of democracy and freedom, the fact remains that the strong dictate to the weak."

 

This was totally correct.  You see they saw us in the US saying freedom and justic and all that but once they decided to see for themselves they found out what many in the US have been purposly denying for decades.  And that is we aren't a democracy but a republic and that republic is real close to a an oligarchy and kleptocracy including those representatives being a class that is essentially royalty.  Ask yourself why we are so dumbed down and religion is always being pushed and divide and conqure is being done via race.  Because those people know that if they truly saw what the US has become they will feel powerless and so they walk through life saying it's those people fault.  When in reality our "leaders" and their friends are abusing us 7 days to sunday.

Sun, 03/23/2014 - 20:53 | 4583844 ChacoFunFact
ChacoFunFact's picture

he who controls the rim land controls the heartland

 

end usury

Sun, 03/23/2014 - 20:59 | 4583864 chemystical
chemystical's picture

"end usury"

Hey now!  Careful with that "end usury" stuff.  Wars have been started over that.

 

Sun, 03/23/2014 - 21:07 | 4583850 Flatchestynerdette
Flatchestynerdette's picture

When nobody wants to be a leader and everyone wants to play nice (Obama and the EU/Germany - Yeah I'm talking to you Angela who grew up under the cone of silence in Germany), along comes a bully. Its happened in the past and its happening now. Why do the 'elites' think people change?

This whole thing reminds me of reading about the events that lead up to World War One. Wilson thought he was playing nice and got stomped on. Obama's playing nice and he's an idiot for not learning from the past.

Sun, 03/23/2014 - 23:33 | 4584320 jeff montanye
jeff montanye's picture

i'm going out on a limb here but i don't think this ought to remind you of the beginning of world war one.  possibly the treaty of versailles and the precursor events for ww2.  

russia's history, imo, would make them hesitate to follow the path of hitler or napoleon.  i doubt if putin will attempt to include areas not russian speaking and willing to incorporate.  chechnya and afghanistan are object lessons of painful memory.

Mon, 03/24/2014 - 05:36 | 4584737 silvermail
silvermail's picture

Chechnya - it is Russia.

Sun, 03/23/2014 - 20:56 | 4583853 Secede Or Die
Secede Or Die's picture

Cue the music from Basil Poledouris "Hunt for Red October". http://youtu.be/rPsL2WVhFCc

Sun, 03/23/2014 - 21:18 | 4583914 palmereldritch
palmereldritch's picture

+ 1

Great talent.  Also did the soundtrack for Robocop

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdZ4G2adFvI

Sun, 03/23/2014 - 21:00 | 4583854 zionhead
zionhead's picture

Would Johnny CockNBalls 'bone' Wei Zongyou, that is the question?

First we were told that ButtBoy Barry spent $5B on destroying the UKRAINE, and now the 'Diplomat' is telling us PUTIN is the bad guy for fixing the Chaos created by Samantha Power aka Cass Sunstein?

Something stinks in the world of the CIA/Diplomat.

Sun, 03/23/2014 - 23:13 | 4584274 zionhead
zionhead's picture

Does anybody know what happened to JOHNNY its like he was sent to the ZH black-hole 3+ days ago, before that he was on a roll.

Sun, 03/23/2014 - 20:57 | 4583855 Atomizer
Atomizer's picture

Have been following this site for years, these fuckers are out of bullets.. R.I.P EU Welfare Bitchez. You should have died in 2007, allow me to pull the trigger!

 

GEAB N°83 is available! Global systemic crisis-escalation in the US reaction for survival: trigger a cold war to make it easier to annex Europe

http://www.leap2020.eu/GEAB-N-83-is-available-Global-systemic-crisis-escalation-in-the-US-reaction-for-survival-trigger-a-cold-war-to-make-it_a15801.html

Sun, 03/23/2014 - 21:19 | 4583917 Anusocracy
Anusocracy's picture

The megalomaniacal US has to expand to conceal the fact that it is consuming its own wealth in order to expand.

Doing it has never turned out well.

Mon, 03/24/2014 - 00:57 | 4584487 Ifigenia
Ifigenia's picture
It is an interesting article, why not put it here with ZH permission: "BUILD A TRAP TO DIVERT EUROPE AWAY FROM IT’S OWN DESTINY When, in November 2013, Russia asked the EU for tripartite negotiations on the Ukraine’s free trade agreements with its two neighbours in order to find areas of common ground for all parties directly concerned (1), what was at stake was stability, integrity and independence for the Ukraine and that it should remain as the natural link between Europe and Russia.

But neither Baroness Ashton, nor Mr. O’Sullivan (2), in charge of the European External Action Service, nor Mr. Fule who, at the head of the Directorate General for Enlargement, spends his time trying to integrate everything that moves in Eastern Europe (3), didn’t want that. On the contrary, they have forced the Ukraine to “choose sides” (4), thus creating the conditions subsequent to the inevitable events which we know: the Ukraine has in fact chosen… and the country, logically, has entered a dramatic and bloody process of decision which is only just begun. Baroness Ashton and Mr. O’Sullivan have literally set a trap for the Ukraine… and Europe.

Five months later and the damage is huge: over 100 dead (5), the Ukraine is left with an unelected government brought to power by extreme right-wing factions (6), relations between the EU and Russia are broken, the Ukraine and Russia are on the verge of a war that isn’t far from being a war between Europe and Russia (7), the Russian military have retaken control of their Crimean assets, the US fleet is cruising in the Black Sea waters (8), the US army has set itself up in Europe again (in Poland, Lithuania and Romania (9)), the media, excited by blood, are a pure propaganda machine determined to push politicians and citizens into war, the EU-Ukraine free trade Treaty is about to be signed, against Russian interests, by Washington and a non-elected Ukrainian government (10) (if the same method is used for the TTIP, Washington and Baroness Ashton will have signed it in April at the latest), the West is preparing to deny the legitimacy of the Crimean referendum which will aggravate the crisis and continue to ask questions on the West’s democratic struggle… (11)

From a European point of view, what a significant political and diplomatic failure! Working to rebuild the Iron Curtain in 2014 and isolate Europe from all the current dynamics in these famous emerging countries to which Russia binds us, just as the Ukraine binds us to Russia (12).

MASS ATTACKS ON EUROPE Unfortunately, beyond a failure, this should also be seen as the result of an all-out attack on the European construction project, a project whose two main goals since the beginning have been peace through cooperation, the sharing of interests and the continent’s independence by the force which, de facto, brought about its union.

The current attack is, in fact, along the lines of that conducted against the Euro in 2010, in the knowledge that in breaking the common currency and taking into account the technical impossibility of returning to national currencies, Europe would find itself de facto integrated in the Dollar zone. This time, Europe resisted and saved its currency… at the price of enormous weakness, especially political.

The TTIP and the attempts to make us urgently sign this obscure Treaty that no one wants, seemed to have the particular objective of putting politicians under economic supervision (even more so than Europe under US supervision). Whatever the case, it would actually create a huge EU-US free trade zone using Dollars and formally annexing Europe to the Dollar zone. Here again, the tools of European independence are targeted, in this particular case its judicial arsenal for trade protection, guaranteeing Europeans’ economic interest, qualitative competitiveness and health. And the methods to obtain the signature of this treaty at any price are, on their own, proof of deep dishonesty.

CAUSE A NEW IRON CURTAIN TO FALL ON EUROPE And we have seen nothing of what Washington and Brussels would be capable of in this area. The Ukrainian crisis was probably triggered for no other reason than, ultimately, to force us to buy US shale gas (13), to sign the TTIP (without which the former can’t be sold in Europe (14)) and to justify a renewed increase of American-NATO military budgets (15) thanks to the restarting of a Cold War between the West and emerging nations (except for this detail that it’s the West which will be on the wrong side of the Iron Curtain this time). .."

Sun, 03/23/2014 - 20:56 | 4583856 nonclaim
nonclaim's picture

How about a vote on Chechnya to secede? Will Putin accept it?

/haha

Sun, 03/23/2014 - 21:27 | 4583930 silvermail
silvermail's picture

@ Nonclaim,

If you like a parrot that keeps repeating the same question, I will have to repeat to you the same answer:
In Chechnya already has been a referendum. Response of the people: Together with Russia. Are there any questions?

--

If you were literate person, then you would know that Chechnya has never put forward demands to secede from Russia. Because Chechnya can not be an independent state within its borders. It sees and understands any fool who saw topographic map.
Even Dudayev was demanded for Chechnya only special conditions as part of the Russian Federation.
You should read more history, but not propaganda from faux news.

Sun, 03/23/2014 - 21:46 | 4583981 nonclaim
nonclaim's picture

No surprise, none, to be accused of being a parot from someone who repeats the party line.

Sun, 03/23/2014 - 22:05 | 4584041 silvermail
silvermail's picture

I knew in advance that you can not argue anything  me, basically, and will be forced to hang tags.

Sun, 03/23/2014 - 22:20 | 4584087 nonclaim
nonclaim's picture

lol ... I'm not arguing with you, silly.

At your rhetorical age you either get grounded or stuffed with sweets.

---

[ ok, see your apology below... now accept mine :) ]

Sun, 03/23/2014 - 22:26 | 4584117 Independent
Independent's picture

Chechnya had de facto independence and spiraled into a clan based terrorist system that invaded other Russian states trying to create an pan Islamic caliphate as they were forcing Orthodox christians to vacate villages.  If you want them on your border to attack and terrorize your citizens then you can do what you want with your country.  I think the Russians are entitled to deal with those elementary school child killers as they see fit.  Heck the 9/11 thing emboldened the USA to invade countries half a world away.

Sun, 03/23/2014 - 22:01 | 4584020 layman_please
layman_please's picture

you are confusing him/her with me. i asked that question some weeks ago. thanks for the copy-paste though.

chechen referendum during the occupational war where even stationed russian troops could cast a vote? no legitimacy issues whatsoever. 

it's a shame i missed out soviet union elections with infamous 99.99% approval rate due to my age. you know the ones with one option?

Sun, 03/23/2014 - 22:17 | 4584078 silvermail
silvermail's picture

Nonclaim, please accept my apologies.
But Chechnya has never really demanded independence.
Was the requirement of special conditions for Chechnya within Russia. And it was the first Chechen war.
After was a requirement to establish a single caliphate of Chechnya, Dagestan and several other republics. It was the second Chechen war.
But the demands of Chechen independence, was never.

Sun, 03/23/2014 - 21:28 | 4583938 Anusocracy
Anusocracy's picture

As long as each person can secede from Chechnya I'm for it.

All the rules are for the benefit of our Lords and Masters.

They can go to hell.

Sun, 03/23/2014 - 21:37 | 4583959 Mine Is Bigger
Mine Is Bigger's picture

You are asking the wrong question.  Will the U.S. allow one of the states to secede?  Will the EU let one of the members to leave the union?

/haha

Sun, 03/23/2014 - 21:47 | 4583984 Yenbot
Yenbot's picture

Y'all remembah now... Kalifornia, Oregon, Washington and Araskara were part of Putinville before the US bought it...

Sun, 03/23/2014 - 22:00 | 4584025 nonclaim
nonclaim's picture

The question is correct but is only half of the matter at hand.

The seceded state is also to be annexed to the enemy (point of view; may be your friend for all I care) and everybody has to bow to the "legitimate strategic concerns"... Strategic concerns?, yeah, everybody has his! Legitimate?, well, it depends on which side you are.

Mon, 03/24/2014 - 00:30 | 4584443 Mine Is Bigger
Mine Is Bigger's picture

You still don't get my point.  We all already know Russia, the U.S. and the E.U. will not just stand by if their enemy annexes a part of their territory.  But will "democratic governments" allow a part of their territory to leave if the said territory decides to become indpendent through a genuinely democratic process with no enemy involvement?

Mon, 03/24/2014 - 01:40 | 4584545 StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture

Guess we'll find out with Scotland and Northern Italy...

Mon, 03/24/2014 - 08:19 | 4584867 Miss Expectations
Miss Expectations's picture

Watch carefully...as many of Scotland's "independence" politicians are keen to join the EU.

Sun, 03/23/2014 - 22:21 | 4584091 silvermail
silvermail's picture

I am not ask:  Will the U.S. allow one of the states to secede?
I am ask:  Will the legal right one of the states to secede of U.S.?

Mon, 03/24/2014 - 01:00 | 4584491 Ifigenia
Ifigenia's picture

It would need to send Vitoria Nullan to Moscow to distribute cookies to subvert the moscovites to throw out the government first, creating a pretext for Chechnya to secede.

Sun, 03/23/2014 - 20:57 | 4583857 zorba THE GREEK
zorba THE GREEK's picture

The U.S should have a leader who worked half as hard to progress it's people and economy.

Sun, 03/23/2014 - 21:02 | 4583869 nonclaim
nonclaim's picture

What is this "it's people" you talk?

How about The People work hard to make the country and economy work instead of wanting a psychopath as "leader".

Sun, 03/23/2014 - 21:02 | 4583871 Flatchestynerdette
Flatchestynerdette's picture

Over what time span? We did it with the Monroe Doctrine and pushed the French out of the way. Paid the "Mexican" government for the Gasden purchase even though we were AT THE CAPTAL city of country we had effectively conquered - then drew back to Texas.

 

Under your comment we should've stayed in Mexico and taken over the whole northern area, and then also held onto the Philippines which were once ours as well. We've been giving away territory the whole time and pulling back to borders we could "defend" (not that we're doing THAT)!

Sun, 03/23/2014 - 21:29 | 4583942 Matt
Matt's picture

I believe the comparison is between Putin and Obama, although Putin versus Obama plus GW Bush would be a better comparison.

Sun, 03/23/2014 - 21:31 | 4583945 Atomizer
Atomizer's picture

You’re getting me drunk over untold history. Love it! Make sure you don’t push Mrs. Atomizer on Communism. She’ll fucking lecture you to covert to capitalism or die. I love her so much!  

Mon, 03/24/2014 - 01:05 | 4584495 Ifigenia
Ifigenia's picture

you take California, New Mexico and Texas. After war with Spain, you let go Philipines in 1945, but Guam, Puerto Rico, Guantanamo and some others islands in the Pacific are still under your boots. Ah, i forget about Diego, Diego Maradona you xxx it and fuck the inhabitants by something like very lawful sheme, ah, i remember now, base on Law of Jungle..

Sun, 03/23/2014 - 21:05 | 4583877 layman_please
layman_please's picture

... and to put aside some $70 billion.

Sun, 03/23/2014 - 21:29 | 4583940 Secede Or Die
Secede Or Die's picture

Horse-shit...there should be no more union of States with a Dear Leader. It's too broken to fix. I have never had representation in my lifetime and neither have you. Dissolve this union, let free people choose true representation by declaring independence. That is the only way to reverse the tidal wave of the Washington Socialists and their agenda to own you. Let liberty reign!

Secede or die.

Sun, 03/23/2014 - 21:00 | 4583865 Lewshine
Lewshine's picture

Russia, China and Turkey are named in the end time events of the Bible...U,S of A...Not one word!

 

Can you read between the lines?? Let it happen Captain!!

Sun, 03/23/2014 - 21:11 | 4583890 A Lunatic
A Lunatic's picture

Rev 18:2

And he cried out with a mighty voice, saying, "Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great! She has become a dwelling place of demons and a prison of every unclean spirit, and a prison of every unclean and hateful bird. 3"For all the nations have drunk of the wine of the passion of her immorality, and the kings of the earth have committed acts of immorality with her, and the merchants of the earth have become rich by the wealth of her sensuality."…

Sun, 03/23/2014 - 22:26 | 4584115 zorba THE GREEK
zorba THE GREEK's picture

If Russia attacked Turkey from the rear, would Greece (grease) help?

Mon, 03/24/2014 - 00:11 | 4584406 Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

No they wouldn't, cause they couldn't leave their brothers' behind. Malaka!

Sun, 03/23/2014 - 21:03 | 4583873 Let them eat iPads
Let them eat iPads's picture

Russian oil bacons?

Sounds delicious.

Sun, 03/23/2014 - 21:24 | 4583932 Manthong
Manthong's picture

The bacon is tasty and they use the swine oil in lamps because there are no whales in the anoxic Black Sea.

Sun, 03/23/2014 - 21:03 | 4583874 Cheyenne
Cheyenne's picture

"...which Kiev and the West view as illegal."

Illegal? Say what?

You mean, like warrantless wiretapping every electronic node in the world, then lying to Congress about it? Like rendition and torture? Or do they mean illegal like criminal money-laundering for drug dealers and terrorists, which turns out is not a crime if you're a TBTF bank (HSBC)? Illegal like maintaining kill lists in the Oval Office? Like that? Or illegal like selling AAA-rated securities knowing they're pure garbage, which isn't illegal if you're totally bankrupt but steal oodles of money to Obama (Citigroup)? Or maybe illegal like stealing $1.6 billion from customers' segregated accounts, which isn't criminal if you're Obama's biggest slush fund bundler (Corzine)?

Ummm, yeah. The good ole U.S. of A. waved bye-bye to any and all illegality objections a long time ago.

Sun, 03/23/2014 - 21:10 | 4583889 Berspankme
Berspankme's picture

Love it when the west gets all self righteous and shit. Fuck You

Sun, 03/23/2014 - 21:45 | 4583980 PeakOil
PeakOil's picture

Yup. Pains me to see the good ole U.S. of A. turn into a lawless fascist police state.

The failure to prosecute any of the TBTF/TBTJ Wall Street gang was the final straw. Well, and Snowden's revelations. It's so over.

Zero. Moral. Authority.

 

Sun, 03/23/2014 - 22:25 | 4584109 Atomizer
Atomizer's picture

"...which Kiev and the West view as illegal."

Illegal? Say what?

 

just give us a bit more time, we already know. Handling this without a bullet shot. Not a easy task! Fucking relax.

Sun, 03/23/2014 - 21:12 | 4583882 ebworthen
ebworthen's picture

"Ignore Russia’s legitimate strategic concerns at your own peril."

Precisely.

Russia will no more roll over and let the bankster bandits of the West encroach upon them anymore than the U.S. would let the Soviet Union of the early 1960's put nuclear missiles in Cuba.

The current U.S. leadership in the Executive and Legislative branches are clueless; absolute neophytes and ignorant of World History, Russian History, and in general - culturally illiterate boobs.

Sun, 03/23/2014 - 21:15 | 4583901 nonclaim
nonclaim's picture

When Alexander Dugin, the master mind of the new Russia, posts an article "From Crimea to Lisbon" nobody has a right to claim cluelessness and/or ignorance of what is to come.

Sun, 03/23/2014 - 22:31 | 4584131 Independent
Independent's picture

Yep from Lisbon to Crimea so far we have seen the West Dirty Bankers subjugate people and put nations into debt slavery, at the same time we have from Lisbon to Crimea independene movements like the Catalonians, Basques, Scotland, N Ireland, Venice etc

Sun, 03/23/2014 - 22:47 | 4584183 nonclaim
nonclaim's picture

Are you suggesting that under Putin/Dugin it will be better?... because you only need to look at the wealth disparity in Russia/CIS to clear your mind ...

And while I would, in theory, favor independency movements, city states even, in reality they have no future unless they form a federation of like minded states.

Break up/apart is not a great solution for what amounts to no more than corruption.

Mon, 03/24/2014 - 01:11 | 4584507 Ifigenia
Ifigenia's picture

and Forbes teach more, even with top cream, the real masters, missed.

Sun, 03/23/2014 - 23:05 | 4584247 Volkodav
Volkodav's picture

You should have linked it...here it is:

ttp://openrevolt.info/2014/03/07/alexander-dugin-crimea/

Sun, 03/23/2014 - 21:22 | 4583925 Dinero D. Profit
Dinero D. Profit's picture

The '62 missle crises is misunderstood.  Well before the fear-mongering publicity sea blockade, Kennedy and Kruschev agreed that if the US removed its missles from Turkey, (which they did)  the Ruskies would halt placing missles in Cuba, (which they did.)

Oh well.

 

Sun, 03/23/2014 - 21:24 | 4583933 El Vaquero
El Vaquero's picture

Which was a wise choice, considering that the alternative was a war that the US likely would have started. 

Sun, 03/23/2014 - 23:16 | 4584283 ebworthen
ebworthen's picture

Was that before or after Kruschev pounded his shoe on the podium?

Sun, 03/23/2014 - 21:09 | 4583888 palmereldritch
palmereldritch's picture

Simply it was the optimal defensive stance he could take given the aggresive actions foisted upon Kiev.

For all the praises of Putin's chess playing brilliance, the best players are those whose skills and gambits are unorthodox.  It will be interesting to see what he has beyond the Sicilian Defense.

Now the real chess playing begins.

Sun, 03/23/2014 - 21:20 | 4583918 Berspankme
Berspankme's picture

Couldn't agree more. We shall see. The west still has the ability to inflict pain on russia's economy. They are hell bent on destabilizing russia next if I had to guess. But destabilizing a nuclear power is risky business

Sun, 03/23/2014 - 21:42 | 4583967 palmereldritch
palmereldritch's picture

Interesting caller to Alex Jones' March 16 show here @57:00 representing to be ex [edit:retired]  ONI.

Disturbing yet plausible scenario given the psychos in question and their demonstrated actions to date.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gr6kaX4OSIk

Sun, 03/23/2014 - 22:21 | 4584092 dexter_morgan
dexter_morgan's picture

Been seeing JBS groups at gun shows for years and years and always thought their ideas were crazy...............not so much anymore. wtf

Sun, 03/23/2014 - 22:36 | 4584144 palmereldritch
palmereldritch's picture

You might like these articles then to see how the NWO’s Soviet communism destroyed a great patriot:

http://www.thenewamerican.com/culture/history/item/4787-larry-mcdonald-

http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/foreign-policy/item/1147-kal-007-re...

.....Not to be confused today with Putin’s neoCzarist Russia, an NWO reactionary waste product

Sun, 03/23/2014 - 22:50 | 4584198 Atomizer
Atomizer's picture

 Alex Jones, this fucker should worry about his own life, not ours. Why do you think he freely talks about doom everyday? You guessed it right!

Sun, 03/23/2014 - 22:56 | 4584215 palmereldritch
palmereldritch's picture

Seriously, you lost me.  Please explain.

Sun, 03/23/2014 - 23:03 | 4584241 Atomizer
Atomizer's picture

It goes back to Y2K fears. The idiot was caught on audio creating panic, Look it up.

Sun, 03/23/2014 - 23:10 | 4584255 palmereldritch
palmereldritch's picture

Yeah, I recall that and his cred took a hit at the time.  But like everything else...take it with a grain of salt.

Personally, I wasn't crazy about the the narrative in the audio clip skewing to Joel Skosen territory who I think is waaaay out there in Ruskie paranoia land.

Seems like the more you know the more you you don't know.  It's a vicious circle.  Prepare accordingly I guess.

Sun, 03/23/2014 - 23:24 | 4584301 Atomizer
Atomizer's picture

Glad you remembered Y2K. The man is a farse IMHO. Doesn't matter, don't listen to him to make a difference in add revenue value. Fuck him!

Sun, 03/23/2014 - 23:39 | 4584335 palmereldritch
palmereldritch's picture

I respectfully disagree.  The more information inputs the better.  Thinking constructively, independently and skeptically is the key to discovering the nuggets in the sluice.

Sun, 03/23/2014 - 23:54 | 4584374 Atomizer
Atomizer's picture

Good night Alex Jones. If I need to find information, logging onto the UN, BIS, IMF and World Bank brings me up to speed. Why do I need a crack pot shouting thru a bullhorn?

Sun, 03/23/2014 - 23:59 | 4584386 palmereldritch
palmereldritch's picture

The primary sources you list are bedrock for consideration and he is just another to consider.

Do you think the BIS and IMF are telling the truth?

Do NOT follow this link or you will be banned from the site!