This page has been archived and commenting is disabled.
Guest Post: Is College A Waste Of Time And Money?
Submitted by Michael Snyder of The Economic Collapse blog,
Are you thinking of going to college? If so, please consider that decision very carefully. You probably have lots of people telling you that an "education" is the key to your future and that you will never be able to get a "good job" unless you go to college. And it is true that those that go to college do earn more on average than those that do not. However, there is also a downside.
At most U.S. colleges, the quality of the education that you will receive is a joke, the goal of most colleges is to extract as much money from you and your parents as they possibly can, and there is a very good chance that there will not be a "good job" waiting for you once you graduate. And unless you have someone that is willing to pay your tuition bills, you will probably be facing a lifetime of crippling student loan debt payments once you get out into the real world. So is college a waste of time and money? In the end, it really pays to listen to both sides of the debate.
Personally, I spent eight years at U.S. public universities, and I really enjoyed those times.
But would I trade my degrees today for the time and money that I spent to get them?
Absolutely.
Right now, Americans owe more than a trillion dollars on their student loans, and more than 124 billion dollars of that total is more than 90 days delinquent.
It is a student loan debt bubble unlike anything that we have ever seen before, and now even those that make their living from this system are urging reform. For example, consider what a law professor at the University of Tennessee recently wrote for the Wall Street Journal...
In the field of higher education, reality is outrunning parody. A recent feature on the satire website the Onion proclaimed, "30-Year-Old Has Earned $11 More Than He Would Have Without College Education." Allowing for tuition, interest on student loans, and four years of foregone income while in school, the fictional student "Patrick Moorhouse" wasn't much better off. His years of stress and study, the article japed, "have been more or less a financial wash."
"Patrick" shouldn't feel too bad. Many college graduates would be happy to be $11 ahead instead of thousands, or hundreds of thousands, behind. The credit-driven higher education bubble of the past several decades has left legions of students deep in debt without improving their job prospects. To make college a good value again, today's parents and students need to be skeptical, frugal and demanding.
When a lot of young Americans graduate from college and can't find a decent job, they are told that if they really want to "be successful" that what they really need is a graduate degree.
That means more years of education, and in most cases, even more debt.
But by the time many of these young achievers get through college and graduate school, the debt loads can be absolutely overwhelming...
The typical debt load of borrowers leaving school with a master's, medical, law or doctoral degree jumped an inflation-adjusted 43% between 2004 and 2012, according to a new report by the New America Foundation, a left-leaning Washington think tank. That translated into a median debt load—the point at which half of borrowers owed more and half owed less—of $57,600 in 2012.
The increases were sharper for those pursuing advanced degrees in the social sciences and humanities, versus professional degrees such as M.B.A.s or medical degrees that tend to yield greater long-term returns. The typical debt load of those earning a master's in education showed some of the largest increases, rising 66% to $50,879. It climbed 54% to $58,539 for those earning a master of arts.
In particular, many are questioning the value of a law school education these days. Law schools are aggressively recruiting students even though they know that there are way, way too many lawyers already. There is no way that the legal field can produce enough jobs for the huge flood of new law school graduates that are hitting the streets each year.
The criticism has become so harsh that even mainstream news outlets are writing about this. For instance, the following comes from a recent CNN article...
For the past three years, the media has picked up the attacks with relish. The New York Times, in an article on a graduate with $250,000 in loans, put it this way: "Is Law School a Losing Game?" Referring to the graduate, the Times wrote, "His secret, if that's the right word, is to pretty much ignore all the calls and letters that he receives every day from the dozen or so creditors now hounding him for cash," writes the author. Or consider this blunt headline from a recent Business Insider article: "'I Consider Law School A Waste Of My Life And An Extraordinary Waste Of Money.'" Even though the graduate profiled in the piece had a degree from a Top 20 law school, he's now bitterly mired in debt. "Because I went to law school, I don't see myself having a family, earning a comfortable wage, or having an enjoyable lifestyle," he writes. "I wouldn't wish my law school experience on my enemy."
In America today, approximately two-thirds of all college students graduate with student loan debt, and the average debt level has been steadily rising. In fact, one study found that "70 percent of the class of 2013 is graduating with college-related debt – averaging $35,200 – including federal, state and private loans, as well as debt owed to family and accumulated through credit cards."
That would be bad enough if most of these students were getting decent jobs that enabled them to service that debt.
But unfortunately, that is often not the case. It has been estimated that about half of all recent college graduates are working jobs that do not even require a college degree.
Could you imagine that?
Could you imagine investing four or five years and tens of thousands of dollars in a college degree and then working a job that does not even require a degree?
And the really sick thing is that the quality of the education that most college students are receiving is quite pathetic.
Recently, a film crew went down to American University and asked students some really basic questions about our country. The results were absolutely stunning...
When asked if they could name a SINGLE U.S. senator, the students blanked. Also, very few knew that each state has two senators. The guesses were all over the map, with some crediting each state with twelve, thirteen, and five senators.
I have posted the YouTube video below. How in the world is it possible that college students in America cannot name a single U.S. senator?...
These are the leaders of tomorrow?
That is a frightening thought.
If parents only knew what their children were being taught at college, in most instances they would be absolutely horrified.
The following is a list of actual college courses that have been taught at U.S. colleges in recent years...
-"What If Harry Potter Is Real?"
-"Lady Gaga and the Sociology of Fame"
-"Invented Languages: Klingon and Beyond"
That last one is my favorite.
The truth is that many of these colleges don't really care if your sons and daughters learn much at all. They just want the money to keep rolling in.
And our college students are discovering that when they do graduate that they are woefully unprepared for life on the outside. In fact, one survey found that 70% of all college graduates wish that they had spent more time preparing for the "real world" while they were still in college.
In America today, there are more than 300,000 waitresses that have college degrees, and close to three out of every ten adults in the United States under the age of 35 are still living at home with Mom and Dad.
Our system of higher education is not working, and it is crippling an entire generation of Americans.
So what do you think?
Do you believe that college is a waste of time and money?
- 49210 reads
- Printer-friendly version
- Send to friend
- advertisements -


awful lot of stand outs from just two: https://www.google.com/search?q=presidents+with+degrees+from+harvard+and...
obviously "an education can give people of very humble means some very big ideas."
You gotta pay for that ticket though.
Most drop out once they hit the jackpot.
"Yes...there are people that smart in this world."
In that sense "an education isn't worth it."
I would say "they didn't drop out because they were dumb" however.
Yeah, pretty much a waste. After I graduated and couldn't get a job they put me through involuntary bankruptcy and obtained an order for withholding on any wages I might make that exceeded the poverty level. Once while I was between many crap jobs I called my state's attorney general to try to work out a continuing payment so they wouldn't have to screw my advancement chances next time I got a job with wage garnishment. He asked me, "Well, can't you pay more? Its going to take a while to pay this off at this payment level". I told him that going to college was the worst mistake I ever made. He didn't say another word.
I would bet my bottom dollar that your predicament (and those of many others) is directly tied to 1) poor choice of school 2) poor choice of major 3) poor effort level.
Sorry to hear that, man. It's stories like yours that make me glad I'm a part time grocery bagger who also works for Pakistani cell phone accessory kiosk owner.
Sounds like you'd be better off establishing a new identity as a Mexican / English / Australian illegal alien and then working your way up from there.
Go to south america on a tourist visa. Get a job under the table at a private school or teach English. An american college degree means something there. The girls love Americans. You will get the hottest chics. Eventually you will get a job and a legal visa with a multinational or an export company. You will be doing great in five years and you will never want to return. Trust me. Take a chance. Pick Venezuela or columbia
That's so f'n awesome, CP.
Thank you.
I know several who succeeded that way. They had nothing to lose. You need some street smarts and perseverance.
And an interest in learning Spanish. Classes are cheap. You will be fluent in a year.
If you meet someone online and couchsurf they will show you where to apply for an under the table job with your degree. Never exchange your money at official rates. If you can get down there with two thousand bucks on hand you will make it fine.
They don't give a shit about visas. Your first couchsurf buddy will proly be your friend for life. You need an advisor like him to show you the ropes. Make him a deal to pay 200 bucks for room and board until you are ready to get your own apartment.
I fought the law, and I won!*
Hmm, a relocation has definitely crossed my mind. I had been thinking Costa Rica. Is there a major downside to that place? And teach English? Thats interesting. I did pretty good in those classes...
Too many Americans in Costa Rica. If you have connections go for it. Otherwise pick Columbia or Venezuela. Venezuela will be OK in a couple of years post maduro. Columbia has cooler weather. You will need a jacket in Bogotá.
Meet someone on a couch surf site. He will likely become your guide and mentor your first six months until u can manage on your own
There is no major downside in Costa Rica or anywhere else. Don't believe the bullshit you hear. If you got an eco tour job in Costa Rica it would be paradise. Just have some common sense. Listen to the advice of your new mentor and have a wonderful life and an adventure.
Be very careful and never show your money. Keep it safe. It is your lifeline. You might even want to leave your money in a bank and just carry an ATM card. Theft is the only serious downside and risk.
I'd go back to 6th grade, slap the teacher, check inside the principals butt, with the intentions of suing the national administrators for an education that SUCKS.
Oh, the irony...
Oh, the irony...
is lost on the original poster, I'm afraid.
The "time" is worth it; not in dollars, but the amount of friends you make, the liquor you drink, the parties you went to, the classes with the good professors you had, and of course, the hot girls you fucked that you'll never fuck again.
I went to college in the pre internet era. We had to be our own Google as we shuffled up and down the stairs collecting scientific articles for our papers.
There was no internet dating either. The search function was slow as we shambled drunk from party to party in search of chics.
With this internet thing I fucked more girls within six months after my divorce than I did in 4 years of college.
Kids nowadays have everything too easy. If nothing else a college kid can go to a cougar website and fuck a new cougar every week
We did trips and camped out.
C'mon.. when we hooked up as kids, the worst you could get was the clap or maybe the crabs. No Aids, no HEP C, and no girls screaming "Rape!" two weeks later when you hadn't called them.
Life was good!
If you know a really bright driven student, here is a back door into free Princeton U. If the student will move to Princeton Town, and --request to -audit- some classes-- (which means they can attend and not get credit), the professors will watch and if the student is really A plus material, the teachers will notice, and the student can ask to join the student body. This is the secret way in the secret back door into Princeton. They do this as a favor to the town of Princeton. Let local kids audit classes. rare opportunity for the odd star. your welcome.
Holy shit ZH sucks nowadays. I'm surprised this worthless post didn't end with THE DOLLAR IS GOING TO CRASH AND RUSSIA WILL RULE THE EARTH.
Go away, troll.
Yes, caveat emptor, indeed! No excuses now, you will pay back every cent! People, wake-the-fuck-up!
I got an Associate’s degree of applied science in Electronics Engineering Technology – waste of time and money. I am now an industrial automation PLC programmer and let’s just say I am in the top 10% (drive a 2009 Ford Focus free and clear and still feel poor).
My advice to the youngsters – learn a real skill where you do real things and you can make a buck fifty a year easy … but ya gota travel though. Life is good here …. No matter who is POTUS, just got done working 86.5 fucking hours last week but still find time for Zero Hedge.
That's good and all, but most engineers who graduate from the universities, even the top ones, can't get hired. The employers have passed them over for cheap H-1B's instead.
Still trolling with the same sad song over and over again. So you lost your job to an H1B holder. Get over it and get on with life.
By the way, COBOL is never coming back.
I beg your pardon? Trolling? Just pointing out the truth, that H-1B's have displaced American grads in new hire employment on a significant basis over the past decade. I've never programmed a line of COBOL in my life, BTW.
My daughter hated math and most subjects that would make her employable. So she got a History degree at Rutgers. What knowlege they taugh her! I loved her one course "the History of Death". No, not a History channel miniseries, a 3 credit class. Finally she got a course on WWII. They barely mentioned the whole Russian front and only concentrated on the American slice of the conflict. Junk. Classical Roman Greek history, nada. My son is about to get a Chemestry degree -for what its worth - nada. Instead he is now big into left wing politics. He is organizing the protest agaist Condolessa Rice getting an award at the school. This will help him get start in life. As what?
I should have had them switch schools after I attended the new parent orientation and they talked about the "beautiful bureaucracy" they have at Rutgers! I had a great ROI from my engineering degree back in 83. All my kids got is 30k of debt.
In contrast, I went to a top engineering school where most students could care less about H&SS classes. Most could communicate better in Fortran than in English. I was there because I knew I could get a job with an engineering degree even if my interests were stronger elsewhere.
Funny thing though..... they actually had some GREAT Humanities and Social Science courses. Read Thucydides and Gibbons in classes with a half dozen others (3/4's of the class dropped when they realized what the class was about).
Often the basis for a 'good' education is there - just that most are too lazy to take advantage of it so schools expand the 'zero calorie' offerings because students WILL take those.
RE
As someone who is at least paying attention.
And dude: 99% of colleges today are bureaucracies. Why? Because their businesses. And the bigger businesses get the bigger handouts from the government. Just how shit works.
I transferred out of one college as the tuition went up 10K in one year. What did the campus get? A waterfall and personal driver fo rthe school president, who made $1 million a year for doing absolutely nothing. The new gym this school got wasn't even from the government funds they got from the Clinton and Weld Admin; it came directly from donors.
Be supportive of your kids and realize that the debt is invalid because the product they are buying, a degree....employers aren't buying it. It has basically turned into a negative sum transaction for your kids, and it is usury. That why the school is teaching them all that bullshit: they don't give a fuck. Thanksfully for us, young people ARE smarter than that.
The EXPERIENCES they get from their time in school are worth more than any worthless piece of fiat, no matter what country prints the domination the creditor wants, and that those experiences should be a positive sum transaction for the debtor, not a negative one.
I was a genuinine fuck-up in High School, and got a high enough draft lottery number to avoid going to college for the deferment. (1971)
I fucked off for another 6 years and finally joined the USN in 77, only because there was no work to be found in my area.
Hooked up with a guy and got into the NYC Iron Workers Local 40, structural steel erection.
Fantastic pay, fun at work with people you literally trust with your life, and the minute you have the magic number, retire !
I don't even know how much cash I have, > 1,000,000, and 4 single family homes in Bergen County, NJ.
if anyone ever asks if I would recommend the trades, i explain that when it's 95F and my AC is broken, I don't care if the guy has tattoos on his forehead and rings through his nose, as long as when he leaves the AC works.
If you have a trade, and the academic world is not for you, you can live well.
(As long as you can avoid drugs, booze, and gambling)
My hat is off to you. Many today would not "lower" themselves to work in the trades. It is all very sad. But they end up taking your order at the drive through window.
I crammed 4 years of college into 8. Arduous I know, but I was one determinrd bastard! Ended with a degree in the field of engineering which I couldn't stand. Someone (some many) told me that education was the key.
While still believing that and borrowing more money for grad school, I decided to accept an opportunity to subsidize my borrowing with real earnings from a job in the building trades. Long story short, a few years later I was able and qualified to hang out my own shingle in a skilled trade. Operated a successful business for some years (f.u. IRS) and then created a different opportunity to pass along my skills to the next generation as a high school vocational technical instructor.
While most on the Hedge slam public education and educators, I respectfully submit that there are a few small niches within the entire ghastly system in which REAL marketplace value is truly transferred to those motivated and thirsty enough to pursue it. I've seen many cases where members of the FSA caught a vision for a brighter, more prosperous future and then acted on that.
Fortunately, more are waking to the fact that hard work in traditional trades is not something easily shipped overseas. Piss an moan when you have to pay an "uneducated" contractor, then encourage your children to grow up as one
....now I have to get back to Ginger.
Th
Took some evening classes in getting my BS in Engineering. One older guy in a class was a steamfitter. He had a BS - was headed for a MS but much preferred working as a steamfitter. Good wages, good benefits, no crap from managers who didn't know what they were doing......
Easy, they're too busy smoking dope, drinking beer & fucking each other, skipping lectures to go surfing.... you name it I did it. They're called ministers here though, & I still can't name one.
Two relatives of mine earned law degrees and my Nephew earned an MBA a little ore than ten years ago. They are all very smart. None has been able to get a job doing anything worthwhile since then. I told them to remove the degrees from their CVs and try reapplying and be willing to start at the bottom and use their brains and skills to get ahead.
AFter the telecom crash in 2000, I was looking for work. I'd have taken anything - there's no shame in any non-government job - but I couldn't even get entry level jobs, or even interviews for them. Then, I read an article, took my MBA off my resume, and bingo - I had a job in a week.
Sad commentary, but it's the truth.
College is the Bitcoin of wisdom.
Sounds good, but underneath, empty promises and hacking.
What do I care what they teach. The average age of the female student is 23.
And q99x2 just received his letter of acceptance to UC Santa Barbara. Actually I'm more interested in the jogging trails around the Campus. And the fact that they have a creative writing program. God knows I need that.
Probably go to UCLA anyhow. I had a job long before the age of Bitcoin and could do that again. But why bother. I'm waiting for the revolution to post my manifesto.
Oh I forgot to mention. nobody will ever have to pay those loans back. Banksters just say that students can't get out of paying the bad loans. It is a scam to steal money from stupid people. They are banksters. That's what banksters do.
If everyone is a professor, than everyone is a ditch digger. Leo R. Kinenbush 1921, Moscow, on a Thursday while drunk.
Even if the education was fixed............where would the jobs be?
Basically employers are getting somewhat-educated employees willing to do menial jobs for low wages.
Part of this is 'we need debt slaves now' in a system that can't wait for the spending and figured out a way to get someone to spend their entire lives before they even have a fucking job.
As far as the list of stupid college classes, 'learn from youtube' is actually very resourceful and i've personally learned a ton of stuff on that stuff from cooking to running a metal lathe. However......taking a course on how to do this is fucking tarded. And the sad thing is there's people stupid enough that need to take the class to spend 4.5 months learning how to watch a howto vid and apply it to their pathetic life. Maybe they should watch 'how not to go in debt'. That vid is probably banned in the class lol.
College has horny chicks, fuck the education!
I went off to school the same month Animal House came out. It was worth every penny.
So did I, but our monthly loan payments were 1/6th of what we earned in one week upon graduation in 1982.
$50 a month for $310 a week income.
Recent grads have $500 - $2,000 a month payments.
Are recent graduates earning 3,000 to 12,000 a WEEK?
No, they are not.
I went to the University of Minnesota a few miles north of you at about the same time. My first tuition payment was $264 for 18 credits for one quarter. I got a bachelor's and master's of civil engineering, finishing in 1982. Total spent on tuition, fees, incidentals, and books: about $12,000. My parents paid nothing, and my wife and I worked at minimum wage jobs to pay for things. I was a TA during grad school, which paid for the last couple of years. I got my first engineering job in Boston in 82, where I made $26,000 my first year. Therefore, my college investment represented less than a half-year of salary. All my loans were paid off by early 1985.
Contrast that withn my niece, who earned a nursing degree from a private college in Minnesota, for a total tuition cost of about $150,000. She is earning about $50,000 a year now, so her investment (made by her parents and my dirtbag father who paid nothing for me) represents three years of salary.
I would recommend to any kid with mechanical aptitude to go to a trade school and forget the overpriced babysitters... er... colleges.
Engineering would still be a good field if the salaries had kept up, and employers were willing to respect the domestic workforce instead of attempting every scam in the book. Including lying about the need for H-1B visas and the availability of talent.
Many of my neighbors have kids in college who came home to mooch off their parents during Spring Break.
It's almost unpossible for me to believe they are in college when you hear them speak or struggle to write a complete [grammatically correct] sentence.
Kind of depressing. But for every cloud there is a silver lining; none of them are MY kids!
In 1970 around 10% of American adults had a 4 year degree or above.
At present, around 32% of American adults have a 4 year degree or above.
Nuff said.
H-1B has destroyed most of the jobs in the tech sector for college grads. Employers have decided that they're not simply going to pay American rates, and go for the foreigners instead. Not even bothering to consider domestic talent.
H1b has not destroyed jobs, it has just exposed employers to people with skill and motivation. If you are a tech employer in houston it is often a choice of an arrogant overpriced underskilled US college grad that expects to start at peak of career pay right out of college. If you can find a skilled and motivated real programmer or tech with old work attitudes grab him as a hire. I have been less lucky.
H1-B has destroyed jobs as the H-1B's usually send most of their money back to India, and government is left to keep domestic techies, which have been displaced, on what effectively amounts to forms of social assistance.
Tech employers can choose Americans. They simply don't want to pay for them. US college grads simply aren't even having their resumes considered when the employers are looking to hire. They're tossed out, sight unseen, and the foreigners hired.
As for salaries, young people don't like being 'hazed' with the uber-low salaries that lots of scummy employers like to offer. Its rather disgusting some of what we see these days, especially with unpaid internships and such.
Bingo, how many companies are NOT having their IT services farmed out to India? That's how they cut down on people asking for IT help, they know nobody wants to go through the sheer frustration of talking to someone with and Indo-English dialect. "Ah Fuck it, I'll figure it out myself!" as they slam down the phone to IT support.
I am so tired of the H1-B crap. There are fewer than 1 million of these in the US right now, and there's a limit of 150k per year. In a civilian labour force of 155 million, this is a drop in the bucket.
The problem with H-1B is that it tends to hit the brightest young grads the hardest. As employers are able to hire the foreigners (usually in preference to domestic grads), and basically keep them at entry level wages for many years with the lure of a green card and citizenship hanging over their head. If it doesn't work out or they get sick for whatever reason, the employers simply can have them deported.
A million H-1B's against a STEM workforce of 3 million is a big deal. That's an enormous number of US citizens who are either displaced from the STEM sector, or have their wages pushed down substantially. These are some of the highest value workers we have in the economy, so displacing them is a complete travesty.
I have no college degree but I am far smarter than any college grad you will ever meet.
I was a mechanic for 18 years and can completely tear down a car and put it back together, better than the manufacturer originally made it.
I built my own house with my own two hands - everything including electrical, plumbing, drywall, framing - everything.
I can build a computer from spare parts and can write the programs to run it with.
I code server systems that my customers use to run their operations with.
I can talk black hole theory, Einsteins theory of relativity (both special and general) particle physics and most anything having to do with advanced sciences.
I speak English and Spanish fluently and am presently teaching myself Russian.
I could really go on and on but I won't. Point is, education is not the crap that the system shovels into your head. That is called brainwashing and systemizing the soul. Real education comes from an endless desire to learn, live and speak the truth. Anything less than this and you are another hipocritical maggot with a piece of paper on the wall that tells me you don't know shit!
Please, go on...
Autodidacts are the ones who change the world for the better!
Good luck with that anger.
A college degree is just a piece of paper that HR uses to cover it's ass. If the hire is incompetent they can always point to the piece of paper and say he had a degree.
I'm ex-HR... yes the pieces of paper, the processes, the regulations to prevent liability, blah blah blah its was hard to get around the crap without an operational manager willing to go out on a limb for the guys without degrees....
In my experience most regulation is designed to exceed the costs and compliance of small-medium local businesses and to cut competition for the big guys especially in hard dollar contractual mining and construction. Just look at the safety reg's - one work place required a warning sign on the hot tap in the kitchen and a danger sign on the toaster.
"is a university education worth it". Uhm i just read in the financial post today an article with statistics that showed here in Canada that the average job being offered that required university education paid $15k more than non degreed job. If you work for 35 years that's over half a million dollars in today's money. Question answered... Yes it's worth it generally speaking, at least if you believe in mathematics.
Actually most technicians and tradespeople are out-earning the university-educated crowd. Only $15k may very well not even make up for the years out of the workforce and the more significant degree of difficulty finding a job with a degree than without. Employers seem to prefer people without degrees, because they can be hired for cheap.
FUCK CHARLES SCHWAB, AND THE POP-UP AD HE RODE IN ON!!!!!
College has been dumbed down because high school was dumbed down because middle school was dumbed down.
College might as well be High School 2.0 at this point considering what is expected upon graduation of high school barely even meets middle school standards of yesteryear. The ironic thing is that with the influx of technology and accessibility, you would expect it to be going the other way, but it's simply just not. Many years back I ran across a report card and old homework from my grandpa when he was in middle school. There was some calculus in there, geometry, algebra, etc. etc. He was not in "advanced" classes, he was in classes that were standard fare. He had to know some basic accounting and word problems were real-world examples with direct relation to farming... which is what the region consisted mostly of.
Parent's report cards, that stuff all became high school stuff.
And when I finished up high school, if you knew basic geometry and even had a simple grasp on algebra, you were above the curve. Now you have people graduating without being able to read... and sure enough, they go to college, because that's what society tells them they must do. Undergrad degrees are worthless because teachers are afraid to fail students. Basically you're looking at a masters degree to be held in the same regard as an undergrad once was... and a phd to be taken seriously, whereas previously those were rare. Not even going to get into the scam which is MBA or al those professional certifications that do little more than ensure you're "in the club" in respect to how to cook the books.
You are 100% wrong on every count. I guess you don't have kids in US high school. I know you do not. I have two kids taking very very advanced courses in a local high school. Mind you this is definitely a higher income district. The high school has 10th grade kids taking math that I took as a freshman in college. Biology and chemistry in high school is very tough -- on par or more advanced than I took as a college freshman.
One of my kids takes all the honors/AP classes and has loads of homework every night.
Far from what you speak of, school here is way too focused on loading too much work on 16 year olds. You'd probably never believe it, but it is so true. The education establishment just seems crazed to become more Chinese. Mind you half the kids or better are Asian. This is just a very rigorous high school education and resembles nothing of the "Fast Times" hs I experienced in the 80s.
By the way 11th grader spent one semester at a European high school and it was a style of teaching/inquiry I appreciated. Still it was a good year behind what my child already knew, came home with top grades and a bit of a laugh at how easy it was.
This is my experience and I am in the middle of it now. Don't kill the messenger.
I'm talking "average", not exceptional. Personally I was taking calc in middle school and was already taking college courses by Junior year because the high school ran out of classes to take. The average courses though, ie, the expectation from the system, is a complete and total joke.
I am in NH and my daughter is finishing up her senior year at the local HS. She is also overloaded with home work. She has been since freshman year so she deals with it rather gracefully, working a part time job as well. Cheemistry was unbelievably hard, as was economics. Real world stuff. I remember my economics class in HS was learning how to balance a checkbook and what the DJI was, but I went to trade school. I became an electrician. Thought I would always be one but when an opening came up for the Maintenance and Engineering Leader I decided to interview for it. Amazingly with no piece of paper to back me up I got the position. Going against four other applicants who had degrees. Something to be said for experience I guess.
"One of my kids takes all the honors/AP classes and has loads of homework every night."
BUMPER STICKER!
Was the SAT math exam dumbed down? If not, the local high school here in bazckwoods farm county is turning out a better product from their honors and AP Math and science course kids than my east coast prep schjool did in 1978.
So, exercise caution w broad paint brushes.
Unless you are learning a Trade Skill i think it is. I dropped out of University after my first year and went to work full time for the family bussiness and never looked back.
You should do an article on all the cheating that is going on post secondary Edu. All the kids and parents who are paying other people to write the papers for them.
Unless you are learning a Trade Skill i think it is. I dropped out of University after my first year and went to work full time for the family bussiness and never looked back.
You should do an article on all the cheating that is going on post secondary Edu. All the kids and parents who are paying other people to write the papers for them.
When you consider the non graduate billionaires out there college was more of a hindrance than asset.
Creativity, hard work, persistance and taking a chance now and then will do much in life.
Some education is necessary depending on vocation chosen, but the Wright Bros and Thomas Edison along with Henry Ford and others did pretty well by using their brains to fill a need.
coledge did me jst fine
Peak Stupidity
RE
Did I learn to think critically or take anything of value away from college? No. I did receive a small scholarship, went to an in-state school (large discount in AZ), was able to finish school with no debt with working part time. 4 years for an accounting degree and its been $70-90k the last 4 years being a consultant. Do I feel like a leech on the system? Yes. Do I wish I had some practical real world skills such as welding, carpentry, etc? Yes. Do I feel that college was a good investment for the sole reason of having a piece of paper stating I have a bachelors in accounting - allowing me to have a job with a national firm? Yes.
That is a good one. This is the kind of shit I will have to deal with on Sunday because the DFL in this district decided to run it's endorsing convention on this next Sunday. I jumped off the GOP trainwreck and jumped on the DFL choomwagon wreck at last caucus just because I wanted to see what was going on. Trust me, I really didn't want to be elected delegate. It was more about a civics lesson for my daughter as she had asked me what a Caucus was and then she got watch her GOP officer father run a DFL precinct caucus meeting as chair.LOL Pretty basic stuff really but not for them I guess. It wasn't all college kids either. There were people there of an age who should have known how to conduct a caucus. No one knew what to do and explained to process to everyone but no one got off their asses to do anything so I finally did. Well, the DFL almost never wins in this district. I can see why.
Remember, I had said that the phone calls had stopped from the GOP? Well they started form the DFL in the last week. I ignored but one guy kept calling me. I do the same things you guys do and let it go to voicemail. I finally got to the point where I thought to myself I might as well go see the rest of this so I called to guy back yesterday. It turned out to be a campaign coordinator for a Congressional candidate and probably the guy that will be endorsed to run against the GOP guy for Michelle Bachman's seat. As always, I give them rope. One of the first question he asked was if I was a college student. Why would you ask that question? There can be several reasons why such as eligibility to vote next November. I found it be an odd leading question.
Yes, I was a college student twenty years ago. I laid it on the line. I told him the truth about my past political involvment in the Ron Paul campaigns and my service to the GOP as an HONEST officer in two very different districts. I was civil. We went back and forth on some issues but never arguing. He said some good things. I told him about the anti-gun resolutions that went through my precinct caucus. I had no choice but to put them through for further debate no matter how stupid I thought that they were.
We talked more and then he said, "It sounds like you are very experienced, would you consider an officer position?" I didn't even hesitate to say, "I don't think so." I asked him what the point of this has been all these years and what did either party accomplish? Divide and conquer. He said that many DFL'ers know that something is wrong. Well, HELLO? If you really think that way and I had to state the obvious about how behind they are, then what are you going to do about it? These folks do not understand debt and who owns it. They think writing grants is what will fix everything. I got the impression that at least a few of them are starting to catch on though.
I guess I will go to the endorsing convention. I won't be able to say too much. I still don't fully understand the intracacies of the international debt markets but I have a decent handle on it. I do not want to stand on a stage in front of hundreds of people and make another speech at this time. Even if I did make the speech of my life would it even matter? I am a much better writer than an orator. I should keep my mouth shut but if I did that, I would not be much of a ZeroHedger now would I?
We can't stop these pukes as individuals. I know that. Running interference is what you CAN do alone.
Churn em and learn em. The thinking mans human broking.
So , kids, you might know einsteins theory of relatvity n all that but, can you make a chicken sandwhich in your own home ?
' Mom, can you make me a chicken sandwhich.....? '
And there we have it. The value of education today ensures mom continues to make the best chicken sandwhiches for decades to come.
sandwich
Every college except 200 or so could close tomorrow and we would be for the better.
The college doesn't care what happens to you after you graduate, or even if you graduate, they already got paid. The student loan company doesn't care if you can pay off the loans, they're backstopped by the government.
If you DO get a good job and pay off your loans, better hope everyone else does too, as a taxpayer you'll be on the hook for EVERYONE's student debt..
How in hell am I supposed to read an article that's not a "Top 20 Reasons Why..." list in bullet point form? This guy needs to get with the program.
Are you saying my degree in 'Jay-Z' is garbage?
Its not really a complete waste, its just WAY over priced, the price of education is in a bubble.
i'm glad i became a plumber money is very very good... and i got paid while getting my plumbing education..
Crawling under sinks and whatnot.
For $100 an hour. A lot higher pay than many college graduates will ever see
I own two properties and can do almost all plumbing on my own. Lots of YouTube videos and tons of online info to guide anyone through it. Really not much mystery in plumbing any longer. The $100/hr plumbing gig won't last long. We're becoming Third World and that means a lot more people will have plumbing skills.
Try that with electrical wiring.
I did.
Built, wired and plumbed my 4 bed 2 bath house. Common sense and learn your codes. I paid a plumber $50 to pressure test and sign off my gasline work.
95% perspiration, 5% education. The real trick is to know how to use your tools and having the right ones. Get a framing square book and learn it. Long rafters and stair stringers are too expensive for firewood.
Learning some basic forming and concrete finishing is a plus too.
OH great another youtube plumber... lol these guys keep service plumbers in business...
BS. I see this nonsense on here time and time again about plumbers are doing really well and making really good money (6 figures annually). My godfather has a huge construction business in retail and commerical building in Eastern PA and my uncle has done contracting and run his crew for more than 40+ years now.
I know the trades and the salaries quite well and while an experienced master plumber (10+ years) who went through a formal apprentinceship program makes a solid buck annually (say $50-$70k annually depending on where you are at) they aren't making $$$. It is only if they are running their own business with a couple of guys working for them.
The good thing about it is that you don't have to take out large loans, you get paid while doing an apprenticeship even though the bucks are relatively low & it is takes at least 3 years, and it is generally a pretty staple occupations as long as retail and commerical construction doesn't go completely belly up for a stretch like in '07-'09.
thats part of the point. yeah i'm just an hrly paid plumber in chicago .with zero college dept. over the yrs plumbing has been very very fruitful for me.side plumbing jobs have paid handsomelly over the yrs..no i don't own the company.but my boss didn't go to college .however i do enjoy summer rides on his yacht..for some there are other options then college to make a good living without debt..and between 07-09 yeah things slowed down..luckly there were enough service calls to keep us busy... i bought my first building 17 yrs ago..3 flat an old bar first front i paid $13,000 now i get 3 rents in the bar is my music studio / slash playroom..YEAH..im still work everyday... sevreal buildings later..fuck.. i'm 55 been stacking since i was kid.. i'm no college grad..i can't imagine where i would be if i follwed that path.. probally drunk and unemployed...lol
Most of what Michael Snyder writes is repetitive bullshit. I'm not sure I need a college degree to figure that out.
how to watch tv.... Snyder managed to inform me that such a course existed and I'm forever disturbed
The sad truth is that you NEED that piece of paper, at least in my field. I think I was in the last generation of on the job learning Accountants. At the height of my career (about 15 years ago), I was a Corporate Controller for a Stock Brokerage Firm in Boston. I had learned all aspects of Accounting by getting one job after another (14 years of Real Experience, in real profitable companies) that increased my skills and knowledge. I chose to leave my career to raise my children (my husband is a good provider, and it was a choice).
I have looked into returning to the workforce, and I have been told that without a college degree I cannot even expect to get an entry level Accounts Payable position. This is beyond frustrating because I refuse to spend 40K to take classes that I could pass in my sleep, knowing that I have 2 children that will need that piece of paper.
The joke goes:
5 accountants apply for a job at a top corporation. The interviewer asks the same quesiton to each applicant. "What is 2+2 ?"
The first 4 applicants answer the question "4"
The fifth applicant answers the the question "What do you want it to be ?"
Guess who got hired ?
When I first started, I thought accounting was black and white, I learned that there are no absolutes, and it is all shades of grey.
That guy is now my accountant. When I ask how much do I owe in taxes, he asks, how much do you have left after paying his bill.
How the f*ck else will you be able to make over a $100k/yr - it won't be by working menial jobs at walmart and mcdonalds. Choosing the right degree is critical.
Or trade. Saying welcome to walmart 1000 times a day isn't exactly a skill, and since when did working at McDonald's become an aspiration for anyone looking for a 'career'?
Public libraries in major cities charge fair and affordable fees to become a borrowing member of their library systems. Just a quick observation - aren't most science disciplines and arts disicplines pretty well represented on the shelves of a good public library ? Most libraries have more than adequate space to read a book in a quiet and contemplative setting. The only drawback to self education is that it is NOT endorsed or authenticated by an institution of higher learning. Perhaps , just perhaps , the standards set by oneself , and for oneself can motivate that same self to achieve goals set under those conditions too. As someone somewhere once said , "experience is born out of good judgement and good judgement is born out of bad judgement."
High school friend could not get into college 50 years ago. Became a UPS driver. When UPS went public he had stock and he retired happily at age 55 fully funded.
Other friends went to college and saw businesses thrive then suffer.
Others became teachers and retired age 55 but have to worry about pensions.
School was cheap then. 1000 a year tuition and room and board cheap too.
Used to work summers and winter break to fund college, no loans.
Cant do that now.
This is what happens when colleges charge based on 'need' and 'ability to pay.' Couple that with an all too eager government pushing that everyone should get a college education, and the simple laws of supply and demand take over and drive the price beyond reach - for those paying full-freight, that is. And also don't forget the tenured professors who pull in huge sums of money in return for whoring themselves out to get grants for their colleges/universities.
What's a senator?...
Right. I thought they changed the name of our "representatives" to Junior/Senior Despots for the senate and High Holy Dictators for the house.
Plumbing is an essential component of modern society; without it, people would be dying in droves. I have a great deal of respect for both farmers and plumbers [What goes in, must go out], not so much for scum bankers, lawyers, and financial con-men. Years ago while a factory-worker, I took a $75 course in Basic language programming as a night course [two months, once a week] at a technical high school in Syracuse, NY taught by a Mr. Robert Greenough - I was able to turn that into a rather comfortable six-figure salary and a lot of travel around the world...I owe a world of gratitude to Mr. Greenough...
"The Ignorant Schoolmaster - Five Lessons in Intellectual Emancipation" by Jacques Ranciere...
http://craigepplin.com/RanciereSchoolmaster.pdf
I lost 100k plus job managing two major midwest cities sales forces due to the economic curfuffle in 2009. One phone call and thanks for your 20 plus years of service yada yada yada. The following weekend I was cooking part time in a nursing home as I had 20 plus years as management/executive chef experience. 100k plus to 10.50 an hour part time. Out of work 6 working days. Because i wasn't strapped to 2400 dollar a month mortgages like many friends i enjoyed the pool in the backyard and cooking for the old folks for the summer. Learn a trade or skill that will always be in demand. They had the most overqualified line cook they will ever have and when I left I missed the old folks I got to chat with a bit after serving them breakfast and lunch. See, work is what you make it in a lot of cases. There is nothing owed anyone in life. All work is honorable. The hard sciences need education or bridges collapse, damns break and airliners fall out of the sky, oh ,, wait a minute, I take back the airliners thing. I went to college in my mid 30's full time while working evenings and all day Saturdays selling so i would never hear my kids say it is too tough. Be careful what you chase after because sometimes when you catch it you find it isn't all it was cracked up to be. As to 100 dollar an hour plumber, that is cheap. Here in the wonderful confines of the Chicago suburbs a plumber charged me 300.00 to put a new outdoor faucet with some kind of anti freeze shut off valve inside my house. 45 minutes work, 34.00 part. More like 240.00 an hour. He didn't quote me a price before he began I just told him what I wanted done. If I had asked I may have done it myself but like the wife says when the dentist bills us 140 to take one exray and teeth cleaning is he is paying for his college bills. He is my age, 58. LOL. Great weekend to all.
Sweating copper, making crepes...
Same thing , different tools.
Enjoy your perspective Deerhunter.......ur the kind I would have a beer with.
Snyder's main argument is perfectly good, but I get a litle bit tired of the, "Not one person asked could name even ONE U.S. Senator...." type of criticism. I'm getting to the point where I can barely name one U.S. Senator, because I consider what's going on inside the beltway to be increasingly irrelevant. And so I deliberately ignore 99% of the news that originates in Washington DC.
But I consider myself to be much, much better informed than the average person.
Instead of asking people, "Who's the Vice President of the U.S.?" Why not ask them what, if anything, they have read recently on the global debt situation, or what have they read lately on the topic of resource constraints. Do they know how much crude oil a typical, Middle Eastern "Superfield" (such as Abqaiq) used to yield on a per day basis (say circa 1970) vs what a "Bakken" oil field yields today?
if you asked me about 'fiat money' as I finished my econ degree 20 yrs ago I would have rather tried to name a senator in a far off land /sarc ....eventually I was persuaded to read the creature from jeckell island and got the a start on real learning.
up is down, down is up.
Self education without tv seems a better start.
I have many friends going to med school and law schools and of course, MBA. Typica debt: Med School $350,000, Law $250,000 and MBA $200,000 and the proportions match the years spent. They have to be making around $200,000/yr to have a life because student loan monthly payment alone is about $2k and the loan interest is not deductable for these folks
Colleges have figured that they are absolutely held harmless for teaching the schlock and pushing the kids out the door. Wish those with worthless law degrees would take up the standard and really start suing the colleges that pulled the bait and switch on them. Colleges have to be held accountable, not just for kids finding jobs but FINDING JOBS IN THEIR MATRICULATED MAJOR. If the college can't hold up at least 60% of every major, they should have to refund a portion, change their marketing materials and lower the cost. Like anything else in this ponzi world, buyer beware.
Thats a great point. If you buy a new car and it doesn't run you get your money back. You can drive your brand new college degree off the graduation stage and they are closing up shop and turning off the lights as you decend the stairs.
No, colleges are not supposed to be vocational education (except for a few professions, like medicine and engineering). As I've written before, the purpose of a college arts degree is to LEARN TO THINK. If you have a degree in English, no one cares about Sheridan's use of irony, but they do care that 1) you have learned how to read and comprehend material independently, 2) that you can form new (or quasi-new - there's not a lot of "new" stuff about Shakespeare in an absolute sense, but every year a few undergrads independently stumble on some interpretations that were once 'new') opinions and ideas, and 3) that you can support your ideas and opinions through logic, buttressed by facts. Those skills translate into useful workers in an information economy.
Unfortunately, universities' arts departments have become staffed with marxists with an endless list of grievances ("wymyn", "afro-studies", "LGBTQQCPTVWTF?!", etc. ad nauseum) who are not interested in independent thought; they only want their ideas repeated in a vast echo chamber. Hence we have students AND faculty at universities, once bastions of freedom of expression, physically assaulting and shouting down anyone they disagree with. The students don't learn to think, and since all that's needed is regurgitation of the prof's tired ideas (and the fact that like all marxists, the profs are lazy and disinclined to read or evaluate the student's work), they get A's and B's, and graduate with a useless piece of paper that actually perfectly reflects their worth.
My elder daughter is studying math, physics, and chemistry. She's thinking of becoming an actuary. My younger one is going to study radio and TV production. I pray for her, but she might learn something useful. I try not to make decisions for them, but if either had wanted to pursue an arts degree, I would have gone ballistic.
Become a banker! That's where the money is. Dream to be a banker like Kramer (no, not Cramer)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVNPRm7y9xM
I vote the European owned Federal Reserve print more USD and pay off all the student loan debt. Problem solved and we create much needed inflation...
I see you studied under Professor Krugman.
I got my degree in Drywallogy by doing a 2 year apprenticeship under my father's iron hand. I went into the Navy for 3 years and they taught me to be a food service accountant. I now own a construction firm and the only time I have ever stepped foot on a university campus was to attend a Kiss concert many many ounces ago.
If you aren't worth a crap at anything, you become a teacher, begin hating all those who are successful, and the free political system that allows them to be successful. You join a union and the Democrat Party and seek political power with which you can exploit and destroy them all.
And you teach your students to be a hate-filled, envy-driven monster like you are.
Our system of education is the most destructive institution in America.
Not all educators are koolaid chugging idiots. Some of us still give a damn. I will give you this, we are more rare than hen's teeth.
"How in the world is it possible that college students in America cannot name a single U.S. senator?"
"Why are all apes created equal?"
Yep, attempting to measure someone's intellegence based on the number of facts they know about gubermit is just dumb.
In other words,...USA-Failed State.
..."advanced degrees in the social sciences and humanities, versus professional degrees such as M.B.A.s or medical degrees that tend to yield greater long-term returns. The typical debt load of those earning a master's in education showed some of the largest increases, rising 66% to $50,879. It climbed 54% to $58,539 for those earning a master of arts. '
Interesting. In the "old days" (60s, 70s, and 80s) those were low-pay jobs because they were low-skill jobs. Now higher paying with higher "benefits" paid by taxpayers because more requirements for longer schooling (but are "public schools" better and is the skill level in "social services" higher in any meaningful ways or just more letters behind the graduates' names) so entrants into those fields have to pay bonuses to their grad level teachers in form of higher ed costs? US society gets nothing for a lot of money paid out over decades, IMO. All part of the bullshit collapsing our country.
Wilcox1 "If you buy a new car and it doesn't run you get your money back."
Where are you living? Pardon me if I doubt that very much.
"...eager government pushing that everyone should get a college education"
So that government will be able to continue increasing taxes-thus-payments-to-government-worker-drones on benefits of those future over-educated public workers...
Why does a job in the public sector (that produces no tangible value to society) require a degree at all?
Switzerland, argueably one of the world's most successful economies, has a master-apprentice philosophy alive and kicking. Their elected officials live in the districts they represent, which keeps them accountable for fear of local retribution. They also stay out of war, which is quite a money saving idea. They have one of the highest gold-ratio backed currencies and despite laundering Nazi gold and helping US citizens avoid taxes (which are illegal to begin with, if not simply immoral) they enjoy a higher standard of living in a more stable economy.
tomcat1762
Those intelligent Swiss don't let anyone else in lightly, there's a long list of fairly onerous requirements. Few dummies, unlike here where dummies and lazies are rewarded, the results of all those "social service" degrees.
wakablahh
Currently you probably are cheap labor, so you're on the A list.
Those who have the same or better creds than you due to their experience, who can't find jobs because of the collapse of small business in the USA are you in a few decades, or maybe years.
youtube has taught me how to almost of my own skilled labor for my own house for free.
These include
roofing
plumbing
HVAX
Appliance repair
furniture repair
carpentry
Did not cost me a cent and saved me 5 figures so far. My friends are starting to come to me for help with this stuff and making me even more.
Thank You Youtube!
Dr. Destructo Bravo, so right. Good luck to you!
The state university that I graduated from 35 years ago COST $35/CREDIT. This tuition has escalated approx. 8% per annum and today is $535/CREDIT. This is to cover the costs of many professors and school presidents that have million dollar packages when it all said and done, And these elitists have tenure and thus arrogance up their wazu.
Where in the world can you get an 8% annual increase return for 35 years? No where but as a college professor. Then you add all the additional fees for processing, late fees, college parking tickets, MIPs- Minors in Possesion, college campuses are gold mines and recession proof. To add fuel to the fire the majority of these professors are indoctrinated leftists and communists. And then the kids graduate with scarce job opportunities, It's a real shame how the communists have infiltrated almost every aspect of our society constantly pushing their progressive and statist views and agendas on the malleable minds of the young.
But there is HOPE and that is in Texas!!!! I moved to Texas from the People's Republic of Michigan and my God there is still HOPE for America and that is through Texas. Tuition is capped at 12 credits and that's all you pay even if you take 18 credits. Texas also created 50% of all the jobs in th US due to its great business climate and no state income tax to mention a few.