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The Upside Case Of A College Education In One Chart
Late last night we presented a scathing report highlighting the extensive downside case why a college education may be best described as a "waste of time and money." But surely it can't be all "cons" - after all, with student debt now well over an all time high $1 trillion (ignoring that a substantial amount of that notional is used for anything but) there must be a reason why year after year record amounts of young adults scramble into the warm embrace and soothing promises about the future of a college education... which has never cost more.
Why? In order to present a balanced view, on the chart below we show the conventional wisdom about the "pros" of higher learning. 
We leave it up to our readers to decide if the lifetime NPV of loan outflows is enough to make up for the increased weekly wages and so called greater career opportunities arising from having a piece of paper with some Latin scribbles on it.
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They still put Latin scribbles on them? I thought that was another casuality of recent days. . . .
'ere long those degrees will be signed with a roughly scribbled "X".
The note at the bottom of the chart is the spoiler; averages are for full time employment. That means (unemployed) PhDs in Liberal Arts aren't counted. This most assuredly skewsthe salaries in the direction of enegineering and applied sciences incomes.
Regards,
Cooter
There's still good money to be made in engineering and other technical fields. Not so much in Black/Women's studies...although the EBT/section 8 perks are top-notch.
Yes, not all degrees are created equal. Ditto for people.
Hey I've gt an awesome idea!!! Let's totally pretend that the unemployment rate isn't vastly different for recent graduates!
4.4% unemployment with a B.A., eh? How come over 50% of recent graduates can't find jobs then?
You hit the nail on the head cooter, what about all the part time employed graduates? Plenty of those too.
Truly progressive schools scribble in jive.
hmmm....
by virtue of tha present diploma, have ordered dat he or she trip off n' rejoice up in tha peculiar rights, privileges, n' honors which, wheresoever it may be, pertain ta dat degree.
By virtue of the authority vested in me by the Universitatus Committeeatum E Pluribus Unum I hereby confer upon you the honorary degree of Th.D.....Doctor of Thinkology!
Nice reference to the Wizard of Oz.
Bonitas non est pessimis esse meliorem < It is not goodness to be better than the worst >
Interesting but you need to put the types of degrees in the third axis.
A PHD in Underwater basket weaving is not the same as engineering.
Plus look at the incontinuity of the professional degree. I am assuming that the scumbag lawyers are in there.... WEven with the manipulated markets we have, they will get theirs.
The local yewni has a summer online course, SW290.
Surviving the Coming Zombie Apocalypse: Disasters, Catastrophes and Human Behavior
And strangely enough, that might be one of the most practical courses offered for those being turned loose into the real world in the next 5- 10 years.
Certainly more applicable than the Keynesian economic classes.
Sorry, but I'd bet that it IS a Keynesian Economics class (Rent Seeking 101).
"A PHD in Underwater basket weaving is not the same as engineering"
True dat.
But I would pay a few bucks to see someone actually do that in a carnival.
(preferrably if said PhD also had a nose ring & some regrettable tattoos on her nude body)
They had it last year.
Apparently it is highly rated.
Also, PhD degrees in things that are actually useful generally do not cost the student anything. The taxpayer, on the other hand. . .
As a doctoral candidate I have not yet received my PhD, yet since I am working all day in lab, I am paid. Not very much, no, but enough to live on and enough that I should be able to pay off my undergrad debt by the time Im finished in 3 years.
Whether or not these graduate programs are worth what they cost to the taxpayer is debateable (I suspect if you eliminate all the BS administrators who really just get in my way it would be a lot cheaper.), but as a grad student in the sciences you cant go wrong, as long as you dont mind working weekends and the occasional overnight.
In a non-science, however, like psychology (no psychology is not a science) or economics (nope not a science either), where you have to pay tuition, I would not recommend it unless you enjoy serfdom
This was always my same thought while I was in graduate school (in the sciences).
When I looked at the liberal arts schools, I could never understand why the students in those programs did not see that the reason they had to pay tution themselves and no one was willing to pay tuition for them, was simply that the market did not value their degrees and there were few prospects post-graduation.
My reasoning was if no one was willing to pay your tution for you (NSF paid mine), then that was the strongest indicator that no one needs your degree.
http://suvratk.blogspot.ca/2010/02/india-facing-shortage-of-geologists.html
http://www.biv.com/article/20121023/BIV0108/310239948/-1/BIV/bc-miners-f...
http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB1000142412788732349450457834245147...
If I were starting out now, this is the field I would choose. Not IT. Not Commerce or Law.
Geology.
Might as well be awarding steaming turds and charging for the privilege. Roll up for a Phd in indentured servitude.
a degree is not enough. ya gotta brown nose too.
also nepotism and judeism help.
Don't forget "backstabbing" and "throat-cutting"...other essential tools for getting ahead in todays modern workplace.
/snark
"Sociopathic behavior" gets you straight to the top!
Witness Barry O and the "Chicago Way"
The graph assumes uniformity of institutions, departments, degree programs and the students who enroll in them, completely ignoring Sleaze Factor. Do you have a suitable psychopathic pedigree? ...Need I go on?
So the H.S. graduate is getting paid $16/hour, and the Bachelor's degree holder is getting almost $28/hour?
Where are they getting these numbers? Government employment, or Wall Street?
Notice they're selecting by age, so that they're leaving out those most likely to be unemployed and those with the lowest salaries (ie people under 25.) and they're not counting part timers. That's going to skew the sample pool a lot. They're also computing using those that are still employed rather than laid off, so that's going to skew the numbers even further.
They're also probably counting benefits in the numbers. My brother (who I have mentioned here many times) is shutting down his business, is 55 and has nothing but a HS diploma. His first job offer was $16/hr inclusive of benefits, which actually is a pretty suck offer, but it does deomnstrate well that those >50 that are hard workers are far more employable than recent college grads, degrees or not.
And, another thing! When I went to my 10 yr. HS reunion I found that all the College grads had to move hundreds, or thousands, of miles away from home. They all lived in expensive cities(the most expensive being San Clemente,Ca). I noticed how less happy or cheerful they were when compared to the 'locals'(many of whom did 2 yrs. at local CC). They were simply Debt Slaves with a degree. That was my last Reunion. It was too depressing to see what Slavery had done to so many of them. These charts are a 'Siren's Song' to fool the future 'Class of Debt Servitude'.
This article isn't complete without considering welfare payouts.
I rather lie , cheat and sleep my way to the top. Plus I get a 4 year head start and no debt.
You DO have a debt to pay; that wrinkled old cock you gotta suck on a regular basis.
But,hey, maybe that's a perk to you!
Try providing the end of the day ramp without having a college degree!
Everything by degrees.
1 2 33....
is that pre or post tax weekly income?
Its most definitely PRE-TAX, and hard to believe at that, maybe in NY City...
Pre-tax with massive selection bias (no part time, excluding people under 25 with lower starting salaries.)
The data set is functionally useless for decisionmaking if you're 18 and trying to decide on college. They're omitting precisely the group that has graduated from college in the past four years (e.g. those most fucked over by the current economy) or so from the statistics.
We live in a ghetto economy. A degree in finance (read: doing absolutely nothing constructive) is more valuable than a degree in nursing (read: saving lives). This cannot go on forever.
If someone is going to pay for an 'education', it should be in a trade school, learning a needed skill.
www.TopTheNews.com
Needed skill? Like how to swipe an EBT?
Yup. There will always be a place for finance. But when it takes the lead, nothing good is going to come from it.
Even a degree in finance is useless without the proper connections.
Partially agree.
While I do despise what the financial sector has become, we must remember that many beautiful things have come to be thanks to the flow of capital and the management of such. Anyone hear of the Reneissance? Without free flowing capital that spectacular period of history defined by Art, culture and illumination would have never come to be.
Gandalf
Here are my Latin scribbles:
Accingite vos societatem mortem
Give me raw smarts and work ethic. Degrees used to validate those things. Now, not so much.
There's probably the same number of successful college grads as there was 25 years ago...except now there are many, many more college grads being indoctrinated in the system.
Where's the chart for the best degree known to man (if you're into scamming money), the Star of David degree? Of course it can't be earned, only birthed.
It can be bought though
It should be pointed out that the Type "A" is generally preferred over the Type "S"...especially if "money handling" is required in any manner.
You can convert, but unlike Scientology, they don't perform a Cashectomy on you. Come on in and enjoy the benefits of our ZOG, right?
Shit I'm behind my curve...
This is historical data that includes people whose degrees were awarded during prior decades when fewer people got pieces of paper and many of them learned something during the process. It is not an accurate guide for present day students. More and more present day students are paying more and money to get pieces of paper, but they are learning less and less. It is not surprising that levels of unemployment and under employment among new graduates is so high. (Automation and globalization don't help either.)
What...?? there is no high demand for NCAA graduates in African studies, majoring in Swahili ... ??
Take the skew out of the charts. For those closer to 25 years old the figures will be lower and I will bet the gap is tighter. And, less will be master's, professional, or PhDs.
I don't think the delta here in terms of ROI is the real damage. The damage is that it will take so damned long to recover that younger years are lost in loan repayment instead of getting married, starting families, buying a first house, etc.... the hallmarks of "growth" - without which the economy chokes. This of course assumes that college grads can actually find a job other than the same one a high school grad could get (and probably has more experience by then).
The debt burden is swallowing the economy. Japan has been there for 20 years, not enough children to keep the Ponzi alive.
i must admit, college was great for discovering that women like to be...DIRTY LITTLE BIRDS. Role playing, stockings and garters, sex in cars, sex in strange places, sex at the movie theater, poop shoots, sex out doors, sex on mountains... treat ladies like whores and whores like ladies...oh to have come from a small, religous home with mom telling me to sleep with the bedroom door open and no television to be given freedom in college...(this was pre-internet porn).
that education alone was worth the $20K in tuition.
hey what fucking rainbow faggots down voted me. its not fault you didn't get laid in college.
The real question is whether or not those with higher degrees are making more money because of their education or because they're generally smarter than the other people. You can't be a complete idiot and get a professional degree.
I beg to differ. Education has been made so easy, even at the PhD level, that anyone can do it. I live in a college town and I see PhD candidate morons all the time and trust me, they are eating your tax dollars, and they cannot find their ass with both hands.
Doctors come to mind. There's a local 'rich kid' doctor who lost his medical license after racing(over 100 MPH) the Highway Patrol, with a car load of pain killers he was selling 'under the table'. He got his license back after a suspension. Rich, and a complete idiot, can still get a degree and maintain his license. That's why these charts are so phony. They partially reflect 'privilege'.
Seems to me, the higher the level of education, the dumber they are overall about how things really work. (Correlation between education levels and voting participation, for instance)
We should not be subsidizing ANY university degrees that are not in STEM disciplines (science, technology, engineering, math.)
If you want to study public health, logistics, basket weaving, librarianism, breatharianism, cheerleading, English lit, or any of that other garbage, pay for it yourself.
The 22-year old nitwits will not want to hear it, but most of your degrees are worthless and do nothing except cause "education inflation."
Just like Fanny and Freddy did with home loans, the feds are once again causing a giant debt bubble by subsidizing something that should not be subsidized, because of their misguided egalitarianism.
Science, not art, is what is going to save humanity. It is the Norman Borlaugs and Richard Feynmans that will save us, and it is ridiculous that doctors pay $200,000 for their education while we subsidize millions of preschool educators and social workers, and meanwhile 90% of school districts in America have open positions for math teachers *right now* that cannot be filled.
They might consider paying their math teachers.
I have an MSEE and flat out don't believe a single one of those 'jobs that can't be filled' stories, Every time I look it turns out to be because the offering salary is less than the going rate 15 years ago.
There was once this great island across the bay with the biggest coconuts. Young people would swim there. Most were eaten by sharks, but some did make it.
The way uni is claimed to be worth the price by its advocates, is based on self-serving and flawed reasoning. I would starve to death if I didn't eat, but that doesn't mean a loaf of bread is worth a thousand dollars. The extra income you get, should not determine what it should cost to go to college. It should certainly be understood that you shouldn't spend six figures for a degree that can't get you a job if you don't have the money to blow, but that in itself is not enough to justify spending more money on 8 months of school than the average family of four makes in an entire year. The price of education is way out of line with what it should cost to produce it, and it is arrogant and bullying of the system to tell us that we should give it far more money than that just because our total earning ability increases even more. That's irrelevant to the fact that the cartel has used various methods to squeeze families and make them pay one of the great misallocations of capital that is going on in America today. (Not that TD claimed it was, but it deserves mentioning, because most blue-pill people don't seem to understand that.)
Exactly. Most of those PhD's wouldn't make anywhere near those levels w/o the Student Credit Money Bubble. When that bubble pops, they'll be lucky to get a a minimum wage job.
Let me say something important.
You see, we all look at charts and graphs and say "this is how it is" and then extrapolate numbers and trends forward, thinking "this is how it will be forever". We all do it, we just don't have the mental capacity to deal with dislocations, with abrupt shifts and changes. It's why nobody anticipates any of these crises.
So somebody will look at this and think, I just have to go after that college degree, and I'm guaranteed a better salary and I will have a great, middle class life in the most prosperous empire ever to exist on the planet.
But all of these assumptions could be wrong, right? I'm not saying they are, I'm just saying they could be. It very well could be that both higher education and America are headed for outright collapse. That remains within the realm of possibility.
In that event, it becomes much, much more important what you can do, rather than what your credentials were within the previous, failing system. In other words, what are you actually good at? Do you have a healthy mind, body, and mechanical skills? Can you design and fix and build things?
It seems to me that in the years forward this will be more important than merely whether you have a degree or not.
Shut up, I studied under Paul Krugman b!tch, I know way more about economics than you. Buy moar stawks!
"normalcy bias"... Ask for it by name. Accept no substitutes.
Not even "confirmation bias?"
"earnings are for full time and salary workers"
so we conveniently leave out those with a degree who are part time or waiting tables? isn't that cherry picking a little?
We've already lost perspective if we entertain the idea that a life's worth should be measured by net earnings potential.
The state university that I graduated from 35 years ago COST $35/CREDIT. This tuition has escalated approx. 8% per annum and today is $535/CREDIT. This is to cover the costs of many professors and school presidents that have million dollar packages when it all said and done, And these elitists have tenure and thus arrogance up their wazu.
Where in the world can you get an 8% annual increase return for 35 years? No where but as a college professor. Then you add all the additional fees for processing, late fees, college parking tickets, MIPs- Minors in Possesion, college campuses are gold mines and recession proof. To add fuel to the fire the majority of these professors are indoctrinated leftists and communists. And then the kids graduate with scarce job opportunities, It's a real shame how the communists have infiltrated almost every aspect of our society constantly pushing their progressive and statist views and agendas on the malleable minds of the young.
But there is HOPE and that is in Texas!!!! I moved to Texas from the People's Republic of Michigan and my God there is still HOPE for America and that is through Texas. Tuition is capped at 12 credits and that's all you pay even if you take 18 credits. Texas also created 50% of all the jobs in th US last year due to its great business climate and no state income tax to mention a few.
Eventually, even the college towns will succumb to debt-fueled infrastructure building. Locally, student growth projections are at the insane level for State U., while at the same time, the smaller schools are having to advertise in order to keep from going belly up. And that's just the schools. In the community, meanwhile...
In one spot, they've built an entire subdivision for these kids.
Ever live in a subdivision with nothing but 1000 college kids? Let's just say there's issues.
Maybe we can have our own "Game of Thrones" someday?
Federally insured loans insulate colleges from the consequences of turning out kids with useless degrees. Ending federal college loan guarantees is the first step to making higher education rational. Useless degrees and fields of study (and the professors that teach in them) will be swept away by reality.
More likely reality will be swept away by those with useless degrees.
living in Texas right now is the stuff... so many midwest ex-pats here now... lost track of all the Michigan, Illinois, Purdue etc hats I see around here... because, STEM is _heartily welcomed_ here in Texas and is paid accordingly
Texas is also one of the states that doesn't teach Common Core, thank all that is... if I had to walk my kids through the idiocy that is Common Core I would probably tear out what hair I have left
These statistics are deeply flawed because they include both useful degrees (chemistry, physics, engineering, math, computer science, biology, and medicine) and totally useless degrees (poly sci, psychology, gender/racial studies, 16th century French poetry, you get the idea). If you get a useful degree, college is worth it. If you are planning to get a degree in the useless category, get a fast food job and you'll be better off.
Beyond the level of degree, 'where' you go to school is also critical to get our foot in the door. The desirable and well paying jobs have many applicants, and top colleges have a 'good ole boy' alumni network that moves resumes further up in the pile. If you are a Yaley being interviewed by a Yaley, you already have the job over someone from Podunk State.
Are we really going to debate if going into debt is a good idea or not, relative to earnings potential and the different net income spreads between the educated debtors and the straight to the workforce debtors, in a Keynesian economic system where every dollar which enters commerce enters as a new debt instrument with an obligation to return this debt intrument to the Federal Reserve at it's maturity with accelerated usury attached to it to destroy it along the way and make it worthless?
What in the hell did they teach these kids in high school that they would want to pay with their plastic cards, while deciding how much monthly payments they can afford, to go into debt to buy a house, a car, a wedding, and to keep a high credit score which shows what a good little debt slave they are?
Oh man, we have really lost it.
I have to agree with you that college is our waste of time and money (maybe not completely but still). One thing is hard to deny: we give too much of a credit. Like, when kids apply for jobs(no matter how talented they are and easy to absorb new information) the employee would ask to provide him with a college diploma in 99.9% cases. Besides, you have to try really hard to actually find a job. In any case I see no point in wasting 4 years of your life and getting into a debt, when you can simply get a sertification in some specific course (which will cost you less and won't involves tens of college custom coursework and essay writings every day)