This page has been archived and commenting is disabled.
Michael Lewis: "Are You Really Under The Illusion That The Individual Investor Trusts Wall Street?"
CNBC's last hour is likely the most-watched in a decade (perhaps because after 5 years of delays HFT is finally getting the exposure it has deserved from day one... and covered right here on this website since April 2009). From the HFT lobby explaining that "there is no front-running going on in HFT," to Michael Lewis explaining the "skimming" amd why "HFT is a tax on your investment dollars," the following clips are stunning in their total failure to calm an uneasy investing public. Howevere, when asked by the CNBC anchors whether his comment on the market being rigged was exaggeration he summed it all up perfectly... "Are you really under the illusion that the individual investor trusts Wall Street... the financial crisis wiped out any residue of trust for Wall Street even if they ever had it."
Keep in mind, the point of this clip is to calm and assure everyone that markets are fair and not rigged
— zerohedge (@zerohedge) April 1, 2014
First of all the HFT lobby explains how no one has been a bigger beneficiary of HFT than the small retail investor...
then he adds that HFT "trading" is not "skimming" - take the blue pill before you watch this...
So summing up the HFT perspective...
Up next on CNBC, Ted Bundy on why hitchhiking should be always legal.
— Rudolf E. Havenstein (@RudyHavenstein) April 1, 2014
Lewis explains how HFT traders exploit the system
And how The SEC is asleep at the wheel... and most importantly how there is no trust left for Wall Street - forward to 2:00 for the money-shot
And we leave it to Bob Pisani to sum it all up... after watching this weekend's 60 Minutes:
My wife asked me "Honey, is it safe to invest in the stock market"
What did you tell her, Bob? Probably not this...
.@cnbc Brad Katsuyama said another flash crash was possible.No one asked him why.This is a far bigger issue than scalping. #NesteggvsPennies
— Mark Cuban (@mcuban) April 1, 2014
»
- 21594 reads
- Printer-friendly version
- Send to friend
- advertisements -
I just posted this on another thread. It works better here.
I think they did a decent job of letting them all go at it. It's a bummer that they did not have the bad guy dude clarify his initial answer because once the Japanese guy got pissed he pinned bad guy in the first 3 seconds, exept no one understands this stuff enough to know it.
I was talking to someone offline today who made a great point. I own RGR. Yesterday, on no news, the stock was down big. Today, on no news, the stock is up big. Here is how that person summarized it.
"they squeeze retail until retail starts panicking thinking the technical collapse can only be bad fundamental news and they are too far out of the loop to know, so they panic and call their broker and tell him to dump RGR for no reason whatsoever because the chart was destroyed on a whim. Thats the crime, thats how shareholders are stolen from. Who cares about the fact that after they were fooled into selling, they could have sold for $59.02 instead of $59.00?"
This penny scalping shit misses the big picture on so many levels.
You don't even have to actually have any insider info when you can manipulate the market and make people think you do.
Horse manure.
Screw'em
if someone were to stack up 1000's of artificial bids and cancle just before they filled, it would send fake signals to the algo's and wipe them out. maybe one day.
if someone were to stack up 1000's of artificial bids and cancle just before they filled, it would send fake signals to the algo's and wipe them out. maybe one day.
Yeah, quote stuffing.
http://www.zerohedge.com/category/tags/quote-stuffing
Up next on CNBC, Ted Bundy on why hitchhiking should be always legal.
Lol, the only reason I like twitter..
I'm not feelin' that vaseline
Bill O'Brien served himself up as an April Fool today.
Musta hit pretty close to the mark to get him all riled up like that, huh, kid?
"perhaps because after 5 years of delays HFT is finally getting the exposure it has deserved from day one... and covered right here on this website since April 2009"
qft!
always blaming the brown guy.....
I have CNBC on most of the day...really just for comic relief, etc...
...but I will agree with one thing - this past hour or so was EASILY the best stuff I've seen on there - like ever.
Here's a guarantee -- if this does turn out to get high ratings, watch the CNBC program director slowly change the whole format of the show to more stuff like this. It's like watching cockfights, only legal. :-)
So much better than the Ackerman/Icahn insults!
This was better than the day Rick Santelli went on a rant and re-formed the Tea Party... I would welcome a Thunderdome segment on CNBC. Carl Icahn vs the world!!!!!
So it's a hft DIY BTFD?
No.
This is a time to sit yourself down and think about how to own farmland with a sharecropping tenant. Own the land, rent the farmhouse to a tenant who is a farmer. Have a long talk with him. Pay him well. Track the numbers.
In 15 years, do you think you'll wish you had been in equities?
Yup I agree with fonz here that the penny scalping is NOT the main issue here except of course it is definitely one of the many ways that retail folks are getting scalped. There is blatant manipulation going on because OTHER people can intersect your trades enroute and use that information to FUCK you....aka you buy at a higher price than you should or you selling at a lower price that you should. But not just that, most of the time, they know at anytime when the aggregate combined orders are coming in and knows where there is buying or selling pressure to come even before it actually it happens...its like that movie with Nicholas Cage where he sees things happen in the recent future before it happens. This is fuckin illegal and SEC have been dropping the ball.
I am sure that jap guy Brad over at RBC have been making a killing with this information over the past few years and have just now blown the whistle because he does not have any advantage over other players in the space.
As for RBC, they have recently lowered trade commissions to 9.99 at trade to sucker the retail sheeps into the stock market. The banks know that trade commissions will be marginalized going forward and it wont generate much trading revenue from it so in order to make money they are scalping client orders..
Check this ZERO cost broker that just came out, its fuckin insane...these assholes along with all the banks like RBC just want to frontrun client orders.
https://www.robinhood.io/
Agree with both of you. The penny scalping may have been the original reason to set up HFT but then they started playing around and doing what ifs. When they realized that you could create and cancel orders all day long without anyone saying anything, it was game on.
The real ahh-Ha moment was when they discovered they could flood one exchange with quotes, effectively slowly down the system, then take advantage of the latency on another exchange. The time differential is in the milliseconds, but long enough for the scalpers to do their thing.
This game is far from over. The Russian programmers will be probing for weakness in IEX and they will find them. Cat and mouse.
Brad and his team are heroes, but heroes die (as Boris has noted before, typically from the 2nd bullet from the self-inflicted headshot).
Well put 'fonzannoon' . I also believe that the big picture of HFT is to maintain the big indicies within a certain predetermined band so that they can milk the premium out of the puts and calls. This is where the big money is being made because the ordinary person does not or is not allowed to sell options short. Can you imagine the number of puts which were touted to "protect the portfolio" that have expired worthless over the last 6 - 12 months?
Oh Fonz you know it is rigged. You had to have seen all the fiber optics truck in Weehawken, Harrison and Seacaucus for all those years.
This is not even news. It's been going on for years. For me, this was the best illustration of HFT (this is not one of my typical stupid funny youtubes)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDaFwnOiKVE
This is Fonz's day!!
I own RGR. And I had to look at it yesterday and think "wtf, are they not growing sales by 30% YOY now?" Then you realize nothing has changed and it goes up by 6.5% today.
To be honest, I'd rather just play blackjack with my money. Maybe craps. I'm just concerned my father-in-law will think I'm an asshole
AND yet my wife owns AMZN, she has no idea what I'm talking about when I say "their P/E ratio suggests that had you put money with them between the birth of Christ and the Normans invading England, you'd just now be paying this off". She properly rode the Pandora wave from $7 to $36 and only sold because I begged her to put a trail stop in.
F'ed
Dup sorry
Even Al Capone knew the market was rigged, and refused to invest in it.
legalized kleptocracy
Close the NY FED for one day and we all would find out in a hurry where prices would go.
It's 1430 EST. Do you know where your investments are?
ted bundy on why hitchhiking should always be legal
lmfao
How DARE he go against the allmighty Wall St blow horns narrative! All is WELL! Everyone loves WallSt and trusts them completely! All hail the FED!
I lost all faith in 2008/2009. At the time I had a position in a ETF that shorted the financials as a hedge against some of my long positions. When the market started tanking 800 points a day the regulatory bodies came out and halted the ETF I was in. I wake up on morning only to have my position, which should have protected me, wiped out. How fair is it to the individual investor to change the rules of the game midstream? Yeah, it's all rigged...
How fair is it to the individual investor to change the rules of the game midstream?
I'm sure the beneficiaries of that maneuver would tell you it's quite fair.
Yeah, more important to "provide liquidity" than to make the playing field level.
They leave out that the "liquidity" is Astroglide for ass raping Mom and Pop.
I had put options on the financials and made a boatload of money. When they started changing the market rules Is when I closed all short positions.
Most of the 2009-now new financial regulations was all about forcing you to do so and not make money shorting the clusterfuck.
After watching those video clips and reading your comment, I'm left with the following thought: "Every parasite needs a good host."
Huh huh, and that my friend, has nothing to do with HFT and daytraders and scourge du jour. Sorry to hear that seriously, I heard many stories as such and what probably pisses you off most, stories of success doing exactly this.
Lewis has nailed a grenade to the center of the trading floor and pulled the pin. Now everyone is running to one side or the other. Could get interesting. Wake me when someone is rightfully being dragged out for public caning.
Lewis has turned out to be one of the good guys. Not how he started.
And now I have to wonder when his publishing company will get a phone call informing them that the promotion tour is ended, if they know what's good for them.
I was thinking his publishing company was going to get a call that Lewis is paws up in a back alley somewhere...
Hopefully he doesn't drive a Benz.
Remember; BATS were the fuckups that caused the flash crash, and fucked up so bad; they couldn't even do their own IPO. The CEO of BATS is an ASSHOLE!
I woke up in 2008......why are having this discussion in 2014 ???
Because everybody else is way behind the Zero Hedge curve, and it irritates the snot out of me that somebody else is getting the credit.
Because you need to have 5 years of data to prove you are not a conspiracy theorist nutbag. See libor manipulation, fx manipulation, hft manipulation, and gold/silver manipulation. Wait a minute, we only have 4 1/2 years of gold/silver manipulation data so the MSM is still touting that as conspiracy theory.
These CNBC scum defending the BATS guy and attacking Lewis fucking unreal
To end the argument on TV and make the talking heads and apologists look like douches just need to ask why 90% of all available jobs at firms require some form of quantitative analysis degree. Surely that isn't because of programming and model building. Right? Hahaha ugh. This is sickening.
I don't watch TV especially CNBC scum. I like Lewis and generally think he is honest. This Jpanaese kid as head trader at Royal Bank of Canada claiming he figured it all out is total BS story.
He was the head trader there and was not aware all of his orders were being directed through BATS? Royal Bank of Canada should be suing BATS or this guy was a dope for directing all of his trade their or Katayama or whatever his name is was getting a kick back to "add liquidity" to BATS book.
What trade desk is using market orders?
When did this kid claim he was the one that figured it all out? He wrote the book?
Don't forget who Snowden worked for before he "figured it all out".
"just because some disgruntled bloggers says Quote Stuffing is real doesn;t make it so."
Aw, snap! That was aimed at you Tylers!
"Are you really under the illusion that the individual investor trusts Wall Street... the financial crisis wiped out any residue of trust for Wall Street even if they ever had it."
The individual investor didn't have to trust trading on Wall St. to collect the ~180% since March, 2009.
Just the Fed.
Keep on cherry-picking them dates.
Let's try September 2007 or October 2013 as the start date. At least the retail investor in 9/07 made some money, but the ROI hasn't kept up with inflation.
meanwhile gold clearly continues to drop on fundamentals....
CNBC on its hands and knees begging "the Retail Investor" to come out and play! Classic Idiocy, no fucking way even the Talking Heads can be that stupid. Whores, at best.
"It's a rigged casino, but it's OUR casino! U.S.A.! U.S.A.! U.S.A.!"
Cue Jake Tapper saying the U.S.S.A. needs fewer freedoms to be "safe".
Stock tip: Sell Darden.
Say Tyler, according to the BATS guy you are "just some blogger" stirring up the pot to scare the hell out of everybody.
Its funny, because that guy said alot of nothing. Just talking in circles. But he did throw in a "trust me."
Reminds of of Japan and "Do not worry."
That's a lot of sound and fury there
Everyone knows it's rigged, the only thing to consider is if you have enough money to employ the riggers.
Grammar. A flawed belief is called a delusion, not illusion.
The LAW, as in the RULE OF LAW, has become whatever the banksters say it is; that aint gonna change, sheeple. So please, just bend over and smile.
they can't talk about the market being rigged for too long because that rabbit hole leads directly to the fed.
Superb, dought, any dought. Fantastic.
Not that HFT isn't wrong, but the real crime is the hijacking of this country by the Rothschild debt machine; charging the United States interest for issuing currency. That folks is the real crime, and the cause of almost every problem this country and the world faces.
Manoj, if there's "nothing funny going on", why do HFT traders spend millions of dollars a year to co-locate with the exchanges simply to gain a few milliseconds on their competition?
Does that make sense in any context?
Funny stuff.
Yes, lost any speck of trust in the markets 2008.
Wall Street needs to be burned to the ground.
"Wall Street needs to be burned to the ground."
...Seconded
...Motion carried
...Ready torches
The HFT, SEC and the exchanges are all guilty of collusion by monopolizizing trading for their own benefit, and cheating traders of billions of dollars.
We spent the last 30 years educating people at the best colleges and universities in the US how to extract value from the economy rather than how to add value to the economy. Why is anyone surprised? This was not an unintended outcome.
We wonder why our infrastructure is dying of neglect when we won't teach welding, but we can fill a waiting list with people ready to spend $40,000 for a 6 week course in algorythmic trading approaches.
I trust them. I trust them to spray every downtick with buys and ensure we get an all time high on ES at the close. A nice, low volume breakout.
The floor broker guy looks like he's about to have a heart atteck while Manoj is talking!
These guys never learn; if you want to be taken seriously then put away all the bluster and histrionics! He came across as an old dinosaur trying to protect his cosy old status quo and railing against the evil HFT firms who're stealing his lunch. Just cos it works for Santelli to scream & shout doesn't mean it works for everyone. I love reading ZH but you gotta admit, you are by far the biggest cheerleader for Nanex ever! And every single time anything happens, you get the same old crowd of anti-HFT guys saying the same stuff...
Eric Hunsader from Nanex, Joe Saluzzi and Sal Arnuk from Themis, and that Eric Budish dude....same old guys all yelling Fire and seeing a massive conspiracy in every blip.
Wall Street is the financial wing of the Free Shit Army: immune to any prosecution for financial fraud; recipients of infinite welfare, handouts, and bailouts; masters of scamming others out of their money.
Of course we trust them.
"BATS boy" doth protest too much.
Brings to mind an old Ralph Waldo Emerson quote:
"The louder he spoke of his honor, the faster I counted my spoons."
...and the fat broad looked like she was trying to squeeze off a log
ever time she turned to the anti-HFT boys.
I'll say it again. The Broader indexes have increased by 10000% over the past 100 years why the hell is it that mom and pop always time it wrong if it isn't rigged? It is supposed to be impossible to time tops and bottoms right. If it is then why do the these so called insiders do so well at the expense of others. Not rigged? Give me a break.
The problem is much deeper than the HFT traders. The whole industry is fraudulently created. It doesn't share it's profits it hoards them for itself or we wouldn't have such an assault on income inequality that we have. Are all these middle class people stupid or are they set up to look that way.
Conspiracy....no, Insider privileges not open to most people. You bet!
Punters get the timing wrong because of human failings, lack of knowledge and lack of courage. Buy low, sell high is a very simple maxim, but rarely followed.
Fonz:
I was talking to someone offline today who made a great point. I own RGR. Yesterday, on no news, the stock was down big. Today, on no news, the stock is up big. Here is how that person summarized it.
"they squeeze retail until retail starts panicking thinking the technical collapse can only be bad fundamental news and they are too far out of the loop to know, so they panic and call their broker and tell him to dump RGR for no reason whatsoever because the chart was destroyed on a whim. Thats the crime, thats how shareholders are stolen from. Who cares about the fact that after they were fooled into selling, they could have sold for $59.02 instead of $59.00?"
This penny scalping shit misses the big picture on so many levels.
Fonz and divided states are exactly correct: It has very little to do with the penny skimming. The guy that was ranting on CNBC is right too. It has to do with brokerage firms who execute orders on behalf of retails clients. I see this happen every day. It goes something like this:
An investment advisor see good value in a stock and decides to buy it for several clients. No matter who actually tries to execute the trade for the brokerage firm will find that the price will get largely jerked around in the process of making the trades. The smaller the capitalization of the company, the more the price jumbles. At first this will seem very normal, but you will find, as I did that someone will play you if they can in the process.....especially for mid cap/small cap and sector stocks. In most cases the stock will almost always go down in the absence of news for the stocks bought and almost always go up as soon as you sell out for your last client....routinely going up 5-10% within a few days for small/mid/sector stocks. Now you can buy more if it goes down etc but I have seen on many occassions, for no reason, a stock will continue to drop. It may go up 5-15% but at the end of the day the price drops back down often lower...often to the point of a stock going down 15-25%within a few weeks or less. As soon as you sell the entire position for several retail clients (at a profit or loss) the price jumps up.....often very significantly. This happens almost always in the absence of real news. Real news is the only thing (upgrade, merger, great earnings, hedge fund buying a large position) that will trump the game because the volumn becomes such that they can no longer squeeze you and your clients. If I showed you the charts it would blow you away. So it's been my experience that the skimming happens on all stocks but most of that money is made on blue chip/large volumn stocks. The real rigging happens with lower volumn small, mid, and sector stocks. For the HFT guy to say the SEC has a good handle on all of these things...or anything for that matter is ludicrous.
The Indian guy is a psychopath - like most people working in finance
A couple of pennies when billions of dollars of trades are being skimmed like adds up
He definitly has the CREEP factor.