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Russia Tells Ukraine It Won't "Accept" Force Against Demonstrators

Tyler Durden's picture




 

Ukraine may have drawn its own red line overnight by saying it will send "special forces" into the latest east Ukraine city captured by "pro-Russia separatists" as we just reported, but Russia wasted no time in explaining how it would deal with it. Bloomberg cites Russian foreign minister Lavrov who stated that, "Russia Won’t Accept Ukraine Force Versus Demonstrators."

Threats to use force against pro- Russian activists in southeast Ukraine are “unacceptable,” Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov says in phone call today with Ukrainian counterpart Andriy Deshchytsia, Russian Foreign Ministry says in e-mailed statement. Lavrov added that he sees “no grounds” to accuse Russia of sending agents to destabilize situation in Ukraine.

From the Russian foreign ministry, google translated:

Telephone conversation by Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov and Acting Minister of Foreign Affairs of Ukraine A.B.Deschitsey

April 12 at the initiative of the Ukrainian side had a telephone conversation between Minister of Foreign Affairs of the Russian Federation Sergey Lavrov and Acting Minister of Foreign Affairs of Ukraine A.B.Deschitsey.

During the conversation A.B.Deschitsa tried to lay the responsibility for the deterioration of the situation in the South and South- East Ukraine on Russia. He argued that in these regions there are some Russian agents and allegedly some of them had already been arrested.

In response, Lavrov stated that there were no grounds for such assertions. He recalled that similar claims against Russia could be heard from Washington, but we have not been presented specific facts.

 

On the Russian side emphasized the responsibility of the present authorities in Kiev for preventing any use of force in the South and South- East of Ukraine. A.B.Deschitse indicated on the unacceptability of Kiev constantly sounding threats to storm buildings occupied by protesters in Donetsk and Lugansk. Lavrov urged the Ukrainian side to act peacefully , through dialogue , with full consideration of the legitimate demands of the South and South- East of Ukraine , including the direct involvement of these regions in the process of constitutional reform.

 

In response to questions regarding the prospects for A.B.Deschitsy quadripartite meeting of the Russia- US-EU -Ukraine Russian minister noted that the preparation of this event as part of the content and on the format and timing continues to be discussed between Moscow and Washington

Ball is in Kiev's court.

 

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Sat, 04/12/2014 - 11:14 | 4650894 Two-bits
Two-bits's picture

It is already getting colder in Germany.

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 11:18 | 4650909 svayambhu108
svayambhu108's picture

Hope the cold feet means cooler judgment.

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 11:24 | 4650928 graneros
graneros's picture

If those Ukranians didn'rt already know that Russia would not stand by and watch them open fire on their citizens then they are truly dumber than a box of rocks. If they think the US Cavalry is gonna come ridin' in they get extra stupid points. They either need to kiss the IMF's ass, cede Eastern Ukraine, or get their last will and testament updated. Those are their only options.

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 11:31 | 4650950 Oh regional Indian
Oh regional Indian's picture

The dialouge of Globalpolitik for public consumption sounds like a fifth grader's fight in the school yard.

Meanwhile people die.

Newsflow from a twilight zone.

ori

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 11:45 | 4650989 graneros
graneros's picture

So when has it ever been different?

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 11:50 | 4651016 zerozulu
zerozulu's picture

IMHO. if you want to live in the river, be friendly with the crocodile.

 

 

 

 

US is a monster living in a far far away lake.

Sun, 04/13/2014 - 04:36 | 4653398 jeff montanye
jeff montanye's picture

imo fewer will die in a russian invasion of east ukraine than, on average, died in the last three or four dozen more significant u.s. invasions since, say, korea.

take a look at this beauty.  ought to be on the wall of history classes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_United_States_military_operations

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 11:45 | 4650994 McMolotov
McMolotov's picture

I called it "playground diplomacy" the other day.

This is possibly the lamest run-up to a world war in history.

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 11:49 | 4651012 Two-bits
Two-bits's picture

Instead of kids circling the two fighters we have nukes.

 

You sunk my battleship!

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 11:54 | 4651040 Anusocracy
Anusocracy's picture

Well, government is the playground of the psychopaths.

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 11:56 | 4651051 moneybots
moneybots's picture

 "This is possibly the lamest run-up to a world war in history."

 

the other ones were were pretty lame, too.  If it tops them, it is not by much.

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 12:38 | 4651162 HardlyZero
HardlyZero's picture

Please.  The West, East and Kiev are all together on the same side.  It is a win-win-win for whichever side makes the debts 'good' or 'go away'.   If the West 'wins' then they will get the service contracts.  If the East wins then all previous debts are null and void paid by the Ukr land and contracts.   It is just a question who want's the M&A job, or wants to service the contracts.   

The natgas will flow no matter which side 'wins'. 

There will be no bullets...it is a business deal.

Everyone has velvet gloves and shadow boxing.

The only question is who will handle the shitty deal and has the most to gain, and wants the service contracts the most.

Many times (all the time?) something or someone needs to raise the energy, bring-in the money, to get something to happen (before next Winter).

THE SPICE MUST FLOW (and keep flowing before next Winter).

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 11:33 | 4650954 Element
Element's picture

Whose citizens?

This is the problem, Moscow claiming that Ukrainians are really Russians.

No, they're Ukrainians, not Russian. Ethnicity has nothing to do with it except as an excuse.

They did the same thing in Georgia. It is not something to be encouraged, because this is escalation.

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 11:46 | 4650997 Vidar
Vidar's picture

This is a perfect example of the tax-farm mentality. These people are sovereign individuals, not "Russians" or "Ukrainians". They are not owned by the thugs in Kiev or in Moscow. The whole concept of "you live in a territory that I claim to control thus you belong to me" needs to go. The concept that a group of people are "citizens" of a particular tax-farm and must remain so forever is absurd. All borders are meaningless lines on a map drawn by sociopaths.

Death to the nation-state!

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 11:52 | 4651024 Element
Element's picture

Don't give me your anarchist crap excuse, I've read all that too. Agreeing with it as an ideal and doing it are two very different things. It'll be a triumph of freedum and liberty, we just have to survive the rancid squall of barbarous stupidity war and death squads and famine to get to the new paradise, but I'm up for it!!!

I believe!!!!

It should be fun, and if it doesn't work, there's a money-back garantee and icecream.

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 12:04 | 4651085 Anusocracy
Anusocracy's picture

Some people want to join this ant colony, some people want to join that ant colony, and some people don't want to join any ant colony.

With religion, civilized people allow others to make their own choices, fanatics don't.

But just like with the religious fanatics, government fanatics like you are the problem.

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 12:09 | 4651103 Element
Element's picture

Hey dickhead, I pointed out that escalation is not to be encouraged.

From that you call me a "government fanatic", which anyone whose paying attention knows I'm anything but.

But you are a clown.

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 12:17 | 4651131 Anusocracy
Anusocracy's picture

Escalation occurs and expands because of the very existence of government. Government is nothing but use of force for control.

Besides, you are 'fanatic' in the defense of government force.

Look at your own post.

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 12:27 | 4651152 Element
Element's picture

So? Govt is also responsible for every spilled drink in a bar escalating into a knife in the ribs?

No govt has nothing to do with escalation per sec. Escalation is the result of a lack of restraint by impulsive idiots who are not thinking clearly about where it will end up until its all to late to undo it and you are left with the consequences.

Hey, why don't you run around yelling, "FIGHT! FIGHT! FIGHT!", and we can all enjoy the fire works.

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 12:31 | 4651179 Anusocracy
Anusocracy's picture

No.

Escalation is 400 million dead at the hands of government in the 20th century. All the result of "a lack of restraint by idiots who are not thinking clearly about" what government is all about. You know, like you.

You must be proud of your beliefs.

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 13:36 | 4651356 Element
Element's picture

I have none of the 'beliefs' that you some how interpret and merely assume. You read things into what people say rather than look at and stick to what was said.

I said that such escalation is not to be encouraged.

All the rest of your utter drivel was, both above and below this, was purely your furtive imagination receiving the copious overflows from your self-induced cerebral bowel movements. You are apparently incapable of following a basic conversations without trying to twist it into something other than what was said. So that's you done.

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 13:42 | 4651378 Anusocracy
Anusocracy's picture

It was started by the US you stupid fuck.

The Ukrainians and Russians are VICTIMS of the US you stupid fuck.

Your thinking is inconsistent you stupid fuck.

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 14:18 | 4651485 Element
Element's picture

Listen slow one, they are all bad, they are all 'evil', there are no 'goodies'. Putin would just as soon bomb you with a nuke as have one of his goons slice your throat open. You think a man like that is here to save a foreign pimple like you? He may end up butchering more people than Obama and Bush together have to date. But in the meantime you want to be his cheer-leader.

Silly men like you will never learn until it's much to late. It's just the way it is. And thankfully I don't even give a damn how it all turns out, as we are all dead men walking, at all times, from cradle to grave. And I fully intend to enjoy this ride to the very end. You want to make dumb choices and go to war, that great!

As I'll be thrilled to objectively point out how stupid all sides of it are - count on it.  :-D

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 14:51 | 4651548 Anusocracy
Anusocracy's picture

I apologize.

I disallow the 'you s..... f... comment.

It was uncalled for.

Sun, 04/13/2014 - 04:44 | 4653406 jeff montanye
jeff montanye's picture

imo element was currying altercation a little bit by using varying levels of sarcasm and then being surprised some people were taken in.  i have myself been sarcastic and am yet to use the /sarc tag (except present case).  it is a "dangerous" game and one shouldn't be too thin-skinned with misinterpretation, again imo.

Mon, 04/14/2014 - 07:48 | 4656235 Element
Element's picture

Jeff, I was not being sarcastic, what I said was reasonable. All that's going on there is the anarchist brigade, who pretend to also be libertains, reacted to the very notion that a person has a citizenship, or is retained in borders, and laws apply in practice.

Now I have read all the Stefan Molyneux stuff, and I think the guy is awesome, quite a brilliant mind, but I also read and watched his stuff on practical anarchism, and it was very unconvinving, and I was far from compelled by what he considered viable and 'practical'.

So I know the spiel of that mindset, and I agree in much of it in principle, as I can with many points of view, but what I do know is the difference between an idea and its practice, and I know the formula is never adequate in the real world.

So I don't mind if an anarchist contingent want to go silly at me for speaking about how things will really work in that case if escalation is encouraged, I can serve it back OK too. And I can discuss calmly with anyone who wants to, and I don't hold grudges in online spats, I only ever give up on fools.

I meant what I said here.

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 12:05 | 4651089 Xibalba
Xibalba's picture

freedom and liberty.....Where can I find that?  

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 12:18 | 4651135 Anusocracy
Anusocracy's picture

Various dictionaries.

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 12:13 | 4651125 graneros
graneros's picture

Well it better be Baskin Robbins cause I ain't eating that crap made by those Progressive shitbirds Ben & Jerry.  NO that is not a Cherry Garcia stain on my shirt. Damn I need to start wearing a bib.

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 16:45 | 4651877 Omen IV
Omen IV's picture

There is NO legitmate government in Kiev - so anarchy declaration is impossible in Luganz - they have free reign to declare as separate state by default since the constitution was eliminated by the Fascist American Putch

you Putz!

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 11:57 | 4651056 rubiconsolutions
rubiconsolutions's picture

@Vidar - +1000! You are absolutely correct. Lost in all these arguments is the role of the individual. As a voluntaryist / anarchist I don't recognize the state as having authority over me. However, practically speaking I understand that they can exert considerable force over me and take my property as they have done for decades through direct taxation, property taxes, etc. And I also understand that while there is no practical way of withdrawing consent I certainly make every effort to not participate in the state. Viva the individual!

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 13:40 | 4651372 Volkodav
Volkodav's picture

Good post..actual thinking processes..
now probably won't have to wait long for ignorant reaction...

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 12:00 | 4651069 Boomberg
Boomberg's picture

Nice idea. Do you stil believe in Santa Claus?

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 12:09 | 4651106 Anusocracy
Anusocracy's picture

Meaning that government is Santa Claus?

After all, government IS the belief system.

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 12:30 | 4651164 Boomberg
Boomberg's picture

Once upon a time, I lived on a farmstead in NoNationStateLand. You were also living there as a neighbor. You happened to notice that I had two hot beautiful daughters coming of age who winked and waved at you as you worked your field nearby. You also noticed that I had better crops since my land was more fertile with plentiful access to water. You would like to just come over, kill me, knock the girls on the head and drag them back to your place, and take my land also. However you've seen me and my son Billy Bob doing target practice with some awesome guns, and my uncles come over often for target practice also, so you can't have your way. You get to thinking, how can I fuck the girls and take the land when he has bigger guns? I know! I have two other neighbors that when we get together with guns and people, we can all split the land and I'll settle for just one of the girls and give the other to neighbors. So the neighbors and you organize and execute the plunder and you have your way. There are no laws of a nation to prevent it, just whoever has the most people and firepower. And then over time you realize you can take other people's land the same way and with wheeling and dealing you can take over the entire world if all goes well and everybody lives happily ever after except for those who weren't smart enough to network with right neighbors, and also you realize that you are the nation-state.

I just described the entire history of humanity but I'm sure it would be different with all the modern-day downvoters. It's always been about fucking the hot young girls and good land.  I suggest reading a history book some time in your life. 

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 13:37 | 4651366 Volkodav
Volkodav's picture

You sound like a Yankee...

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 15:30 | 4651620 silvermail
silvermail's picture

"Death to the nation-state!"

When there is no sovereign states, the whole world turns into a U.S. colonys.

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 11:51 | 4651033 CrashisOptimistic
CrashisOptimistic's picture

That theory would have approved of East Germany keeping themselves segmented -- forcing those citizens to remain subject to their laws simply because of where they lived.

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 12:10 | 4651087 Element
Element's picture

Don't talk distracting silly bullshit, this is escalation, in a dangerous situation and you want to cheer it on, to make people 'free' from something via conflict do you? Good intentions meet the road to hell. Think about your comment when the guns and bombs and missiles are flying. It'll be quite a consolation.

FYI, the East Germans did not try to start WWIII to get 'free', they simply gave up on the system and it stopped working. Big difference to invasion and bombardment.

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 12:24 | 4651157 Anusocracy
Anusocracy's picture

Escalation - aggression - was the color revolution and the coup instigated by the West.

And you're not for escalation. Total bullshit.

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 12:37 | 4651187 Element
Element's picture

Last I looked I neither participated in that coup, not did I encourage it. And no I am not for escalation, it is incredibly dumb and foolish, and makes things far worse.

And its the act of war mongers.

That would be you ... apparently.

 

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 13:16 | 4651301 Anusocracy
Anusocracy's picture

Are you pro-US or anti-US?

Are you pro-NATO or anti-NATO?

Show us your colors.

LSOS

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 13:25 | 4651316 Element
Element's picture

Neither, is that impossible for your pea-brain to conceive of?

I don't have a 'side', as I don't champion states.

Apparently you do, as well as war monger.

And no, I don't care to know what 'side' you're atrophied frontal lobes are on, please spare me your further stupidity.

You need to take a lot less drugs and grow the hell up, silly man.

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 13:34 | 4651345 Anusocracy
Anusocracy's picture

So then, why are you anti-Russia when the US was the AGGRESSOR? To be consistent, you would have to be against the initiator of aggression, the US, and you are not. Russia did not start this.

I think you are lying.

BTW, I find it disconcerting not being against evil. You do understand that the US is evil, don't you?

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 14:00 | 4651391 Element
Element's picture

Rubbish, I was not on any side, at any point, you can think whatever you want, it's irrelevant. If I say I have no side, I have no side.

I comment objectively on all sides, and no side should ever think I won't point out exactly what shitbirds they are, and that means every fucking govt on earth, and I'll describe in excoriating detail the crap they get up to without any hesitation at all. I'll do that to Obama and I'll do it to Putin. Their person or state is totally irrelevant.

That's what I have always done and I will always do. I don't give a damn about the govt of Putin or the govt of Obama, they are all warlords, killers, despoilers and thieves.

 

If you don't like objective commentary of all sides, then fuck you, as I'll never at any point do anything to please you, of that you can be 100% assured. I don't give a damn whether you like it, or it makes you cry, or feel depressed, or happy, because I'm going to have my say on such things, and you and all those petty little twerps like you, who pick favorites from a sea of scum - can go to hell!

Have a nice day.  :-D

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 14:40 | 4651524 Anusocracy
Anusocracy's picture

Apparently you can't comprehend that not criticizing the aggressor IS taking a side.

What is happening in Ukraine is the result of US actions and the US is solely to blame for what has followed. Russia's actions are the result of US actions.

Your ingroup patriotism has trumped your so-called 'objective commentary'.

Element:

"Whose citizens?

This is the problem, Moscow claiming that Ukrainians are really Russians.

No, they're Ukrainians, not Russian. Ethnicity has nothing to do with it except as an excuse.

They did the same thing in Georgia. It is not something to be encouraged, because this is escalation."

The tiff In Georgia was fomented by the US (and Israel), the coup in Ukraine was caused by the US, but your so-called 'objective commentary' disappears when the US is at fault.

Being objective means that each individual abides by whatever competing jurisdiction they want, or none at all.

I choose none at all.

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 16:54 | 4651908 Omen IV
Omen IV's picture

"Element" lacks the integrity and intellectual honesty to recognize that action breeds reaction and the USA paid $5 billion to subvert a democratically elected government

ANY lapdog can say he thinks everyone is at fault -  that is the definition of a covert agent

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 17:07 | 4651948 Element
Element's picture

Element doesn't get his thinking defined by a crowd of shameless Putin dick-suckers. I call it as it is, and always will, and if you don't like it you can go to hell.

Oh yeah ... I;m a covert agent man ... oooooeee ... I'm really bad .... ooouei .... I could say anything .... lol

Get a grip bud. You don't like alternate views to challenge your happy reality, I get it.  :-D

Sun, 04/13/2014 - 01:04 | 4653209 chindit13
chindit13's picture

You stupid fucking naïve gullible moron, and I mean that as constructive criticism.

“The US paid $5 billion to subvert a democratically elected government.”

Actually, no.  The total foreign aid the US has given Ukraine since 1991 is $5 billion, which averages out to $18 million per month (monthly take-home of a decent HF manager).  The funds were given during times when Ukraine was run by governments both favorably disposed toward the US, and governments not so favorably disposed, and most of the funds went towards improving public works, education, healthcare, etc.

During that same 23-year period, Putin had one of those “democratically elected” leaders poisoned with dioxin.  I don’t know how much that cost.

You might want to take a moment to reflect on what might be the differences between what can be called “coups” and what can be called “popular uprisings”, and how external elements might be able to affect one or the other.  You might not agree with what I’ll say, but a coup is a precise and pinpointed effort that can be affected by a small group.  Such an entity could benefit from external support.  An example might be the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan in 1979, when the USSR funded the toppling of the government, then installed a puppet who “invited” the already-there Soviets to come and try to seize the nation.

A popular uprising is a mass movement.  It stems from the thoughts, ideals and desires of a broad range of a society.  It might be able to be influenced by outsiders with vested interests, but outsiders’ impact is minimal at best.  Outsiders can’t make something happen that isn’t going to happen anyway, or that doesn’t have broad support amongst the population.  To suggest the movement in Ukraine was purely a result of US meddling is to say that the Ukrainian people are ignorant malleable fools, who are no match for the 'vastly superior' handful of Foggy Bottom types like Victoria Nuland and Geoffrey Pyatt.  That is grossly unfair to the people of Ukraine.  The claims that US alphabets were in there fomenting and actively participating only come from those who have a worldview derived from Hollywood B-fare and pulp fiction.  People of that naïve belief should listen more to Bob Baer and spend less time with Robert Ludlum or Alex Jones.

For some reason, once many of you fanbois saw photos of Putin with his shirt off (not a pretty sight, frankly, unless one is enamored of sagging 60+ year-old manboobs), you got all weak in the knees and apparently let your homoerotic fantasies affect your thinking.  Putin is not a “patriot” any more than Justin Bieber is a singer.  Putin is a thuggish, self-serving, slightly unbalanced Nicholas II wannabe, who may well suffer from SDS, and after dumping his babushka and knocking up that little ribbon-twirling strumpet, is evidencing a little Midlife Crisis (if he rides into Crimea in a Porsche, that will confirm it).  He cares about empire and not people, hence he supports referendums in Crimea, but savaged Chechnya when he was building his dictatorial bonafides.  Certainly he is not about to allow any sort of self-determination in the 96% Chechen Moslem land of Chechnya.  Nor Dagestan.   “Worship me above all others, or I’ll cut your gas off and let you freeze” kind of has an Old Testament feel to it, don’t you think?  The world---US, Russia, everybody---should have left that sort of thinking to the dust bins of history or myth.

Putin is systematically re-installing in Russia the kind of societal control measures his land suffered under during Soviet times, and crushing dissent wherever it appears.  Even an all-female rock band seems to intimidate him.  (Dubya didn't put the Dixie Chicks in jail.)  Putin ordered that Anna Politkovskaya’s head be blown off (but I’ll bet Eddie Snowden won’t bring that up until he has another place to hang his hat).  Putin funds his government---and keeps the ostensible debt levels low---by brow-beating Russian banks to make loans to his oligarch cronies.  It’s sort of MyRa Putinesca.

Victoria Nuland may well be an asshole.  Seems so.  John McCain definitely is.  John Kerry is an embarrassment, though I would suggest he chummy up to Putin by comparing notes over their Botox and plastic surgery treatments.  Maybe that could help diffuse this current potentially disastrous situation.

 

Mon, 04/14/2014 - 08:01 | 4656252 Element
Element's picture

 

 

"Certainly he is not about to allow any sort of self-determination in the 96% Chechen Moslem land of Chechnya.  Nor Dagestan."

Well I think the geography of Chechnya and Dagestan required militarized rebellion and insurgency be put down by moscow, and by whatever means, at that point in their collapse-recovery cycle, don't you? Especially the Jihadi type mentality they had dealt with in the ghan. So I can understand why that occurred.

If Kansas tried that the great dark beige peace-maker would do something similar, if there was significant resistence.

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 17:07 | 4651933 Element
Element's picture

Oh fuck off you ridiculous clown, I have pounded the shit out of Washington and the EU/NATO over Ukraine and said almost nothing whatsoever about Russia until now.

You are tedious ignorant little pissant who wants to suck the puss out of Putin's dick, I get it.

I won't reply to such a feeble-minded dolt again.

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 20:31 | 4652599 echoes
echoes's picture

Go suck Obango's criminal dick. If russians in the Ukraine want to opt out of that system, they have every right to. Just like if Texans wanted to secede, who the fuck are you to say no.

Mon, 04/14/2014 - 07:51 | 4656238 Element
Element's picture

Funny I didn't say anything about any of that.

You must be a delusional twat.

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 13:33 | 4651359 Volkodav
Volkodav's picture

Agree....

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 11:57 | 4651055 McMolotov
McMolotov's picture

Do you apply the same rationale to religion? Do you also say "Tough titty — they're Pakistanis, not Christians" whenever a Christian gets sentenced to death for blasphemy? Or does part of you cringe at the idea of the State trampling on people who are "different?"

As much as I loathe the very concept of ethnicity (it's a collectivist construct), the people who choose to identify with an ethnicity are individuals, and as such are entitled to self-determination. When the law stomps all over them, they have every right to stomp all over those who make the law.

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 16:53 | 4651119 Element
Element's picture

Are you simply incapable of looking at the merit of what was said? Or are you a moron?

Here it is again.

Escalation is not something to encourage.

The rest of your idiotic response is ... is just that.

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 16:57 | 4651920 Omen IV
Omen IV's picture

Nonsense - Extremism in Defense of Liberty is no Vice - 1964!

escalate, escalate,  escalate!

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 17:37 | 4652043 Element
Element's picture

You are a genuine psychopathic idiot then, at least all can see what sort of war-mongering scum you are.

Sun, 04/13/2014 - 04:35 | 4653397 chindit13
chindit13's picture

Element,

You might want to try learning from your current band of adversaries, since they appear to be experts on borders, sovereignty, referendums, and the justified use of force.  For clarification, ask them what size considerations must be met in order to make a referendum binding.  Must the area be the size of eastern Ukraine?  The size of Crimea?  A Section 8 walk-up flat in Brighton Beach?  I think it’s important we know, because Putin seems to have made up his mind already.

Also, what consideration is, or is not, sufficient to validate a land transfer, and is there a time element involved?  For example, some have posted here that Crimea went to Ukraine as a result of a drunk (citation needed) Khrushchev, back in 1954, closing the book on Russia’s 171-year control over the place, which was roughly half as long as it had been under control of the Crimean Khanate (Turks and Moghuls…do they have a legitimate senior claim?).  I don’t know if any funds exchanged hands or not in 1954, but even if some did, it probably did not come close to approaching the actual monetary value of Crimea.  If we use the thinking of those now standing against you, does that suggest Alaska is vulnerable?  Seward bought it in 1867, which is really the blink of an eye in geopolitical terms, and at 147 years it’s still less than the amount of time Russia held Crimea.  Seward paid a sum that, even adjusted for inflation, is less than the two week take home pay of David Tepper or Ray Dalio.  Maybe Eduard de Stoecki or Konstantin Nikolaevich were drunk?  In a sense, too, the “Russian America” (Alaska) deal was tied to Crimea---history is full of twists and turns---since Russia was short of cash after fighting the Crimean War and sold Alaska as a way of getting some funds to repay everyone’s favorite banking family.  I’m sure Putin knows that better than even Sarah Palin.

Element, I enjoy your posts (my personal favorite was your chemtrails explanation, though I suspect it slayed a good fantasy bogeyman for many here), and the battle you had in this thread is entertaining.  We do have to remember, though, (and I’m sure you do) that we’re all just a bunch of nobodies on the internet whose beliefs and opinions have a sum total of zero impact on events anywhere, and that if we have a function, it is to generate page views so that the folks who provide us with this forum can pay the bills and enjoy the occasional cold beer.  Today you probably bought Tyler a whole sixpack.  I hope you’ll have one or two yourself and put this episode behind you, fun as it must have been.

 

 

Mon, 04/14/2014 - 08:20 | 4656275 Element
Element's picture

 

 

We do have to remember, though, (and I’m sure you do) that we’re all just a bunch of nobodies on the internet whose beliefs and opinions have a sum total of zero impact on events anywhere, and that if we have a function, it is to generate page views so that the folks who provide us with this forum can pay the bills and enjoy the occasional cold beer.

Well I had no problems with internal blowback from this thread chindit, and it did become fun, unfortunately I don't drink though, or touch anything but coffee in fact, used to but I just like to be unclouded is all. I concur with your view stated in that quote there, but it is also fun to think maybe it's read by someone that matters occasionally. Yeah, no, you're right, they don't. lol

Tyler is welcome to my beers and if it landed him a few then good luck to him. I wish I knew the guy, as I'd get him so pissed, and actually have a few too. I know you say you don't read the comments much but I think you do, you just have restraint that I don't have, I like to mix it up and see what happens. But I must admit I am disappointed with many commenters on zh, in a way I previously wasn't (and I don't mean in this post) and some of them I've lost all patience with, but there a good guys and gals here too, who are well worth the occasional aneurism from a muppet.

Thanks for the words. ;-)

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 12:19 | 4651139 chindit13
chindit13's picture

So Putin is going to allow the Chechens to hold a referendum?  Or if they ask for it, will he go in and savage them like he did when he built his post-KGB resume?  And Dagestan?

 

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 12:33 | 4651182 McMolotov
McMolotov's picture

I don't necessarily support Putin; I support the people of Ukraine who are being stomped upon. And yes, Chechens should have their independence.

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 13:22 | 4651321 Anusocracy
Anusocracy's picture

The Chechens should have their independence for Russia ONLY if they simultaneously offer independence to those who wish to leave Chechnya.

Otherwise they are no different or better than Russia.

This majority rules shit has to end sometime.

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 12:38 | 4651194 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Now chindit, don't confuse the sycophant Putinista's with thoughts of others rights to self determination, quid pro quo or logic. Their heads might explode...lol.

They've got empires to rebuild!!! ;-)

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 13:04 | 4651268 Volkodav
Volkodav's picture

Most Chechen are with Russia..cooperate and benefit..life is improved....President offered send troops to fight if fanactic  terrorists bother Crimea.

Chechen Vostok and Zapad Battalions fought lead into S. Ossetia/Georgia against Georgia and "advisors"

Only small minority outside promoted, financed extreme radical beasts is problem in Caucus.

These are terrible criminals crime gangs who prey on common citizen. Highest brutality, rob, rape, torture, burn and slavery.

You are ignorant about this subject.

 

 

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 14:31 | 4651508 Element
Element's picture

And Russia invaded and stole a part of Georgia.

You forgot that bit. And Georgia had every right under international law to defend its territory from such a fifth column of separatists.

And South Ossetia is not independent, that's clearly a sham as it's totally dependent on Russia for its very existence and is joined at the hip with Russian policy and will answer to all desires of Moscow.

That's called naked invasion and annexation of another country's land sport, and you can pretend to be a a dutiful patriotic Chechen all you want, it is the direct equivalent of what Hitler did to Russian territory, just on a smaller scale.

If that displeases you, tough, it's all true.

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 15:56 | 4651689 silvermail
silvermail's picture

Putin has already held a referendum in Chechnya. Response of the people: "Together with Russia." Are there any questions?

I noticed that all WH trolls, often attempt to use the "referendum in Chechnya" as an argument. But those idiots who write programs for those WH trolls, just do not know that Chechnya has never put forward demands for independence from Russia! LOL

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 12:27 | 4651165 chemystical
chemystical's picture

"This is the problem, Moscow claiming that Ukrainians are really Russians"

You conveniently gloss over the most salient and initial fact in all of this:

THE PEOPLE ARE DECLARING THEMSELVES TO BE RUSSIAN.

Or do you deny them self-determination?

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 12:48 | 4651224 Element
Element's picture

I do declare that I'm an Eskimo and claim my ancestral hunting rights to take a walrus.

Somehow you confused the bit where I said that RUSSIA was claiming that Ukrainians were Russian.

Which is a bit different from what you are arguing namely that the Ukrainians claiming to be Russian.

Well that's terrific, if they want to be Russian, emigrate.

Don't try to incite war.

Or was that too fast for you?

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 12:59 | 4651254 chemystical
chemystical's picture

"Somehow you confused the bit where I said that RUSSIA was claiming that Ukrainians were Russian."

I confused NOTHING.  (CAPS AND BOLD MAKE OUR STATMENTS MORE TRUTHFUL, EH?).  I pointed out that you started your logical argument AFTER ignoring the original premise.

"Well that's terrific, if they want to be Russian, emigrate."

To?  Right where they are now?  Or does the most recently-drawn artificial line trump all previous lines?  If that's the case, then of course you'll be on-board when they're re-drawn again by those voting or demanding on leaving the artificial construct of UKR.  Yes?

If the walrus blather was an attempt at syllogism you need to try harder.

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 13:18 | 4651306 Element
Element's picture

er, ... dipshit ... this is the all-caps that you used in the original comment that I've replied to:

"THE PEOPLE ARE DECLARING THEMSELVES TO BE RUSSIAN."

And when I wrote it, is was not in all caps, have a look up the page idiot.

And when I used caps in a single word in my last reply, namely, "RUSSIAN", to entirely correctly point out that you'd totally changed what I'd said around and misrepresented it, then like a complete dickhead you then turned around and wrote -and I quote (and these are your all-caps again):

"CAPS AND BOLD MAKE OUR STATMENTS MORE TRUTHFUL, EH?"

Can you see the wee hypocrisy problem there?

Lay off those chems fool, you don't warrant a further response from here on. But for future reference "statements" has an 'E' in it.

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 13:23 | 4651322 chemystical
chemystical's picture

The people self-identify as Russians but it doesn't matter what the fuck they choose to call themselves. My post was about self-determination, and you have chosen to ignore that the same as you have chosen to not address the similar comments of others. Instead your retort is "dickhead". Bravo.  You win.  I concede to the truth of your argument.

Ad hominems might be your forte but addressing facts is not.

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 13:26 | 4651336 Volkodav
Volkodav's picture

interrupt here.....your little edgy name calling ad hominem attack does not show intelligence.

 

 

 

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 13:56 | 4651419 Element
Element's picture

Nevertheless, I totally agree with my former statements. :-D

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 13:07 | 4651277 chemystical
chemystical's picture

P.S.

"Which is a bit different from what you are arguing namely that the Ukrainians claiming to be Russian."

You're argument grew even weaker with that bullshit.  The people who voted to leave and the people who are demanding to leave are Russians.  They are Ukranians ONLY if you accept that the most-recently drawn artificial line is the one that matters.  After these folk re-draw those lines, then you'll support that, right, and then you'll say, "Ok, THIS is where we stop, and no none can ever again draw a new line"?  That's a mighty convenient (and flexible) belief system you're aparently holding.

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 13:20 | 4651314 Volkodav
Volkodav's picture

useless talkings........ Fact is they know they are Russian. You know nothing about...

Ukraine is historically only lands, hardly a viable nation..maybe recently given a name..

Was Russians there from centuries..."Kiev Rus" birthed there 

For English speaking:  "Ukraine A History" Orest Subtelny

get educate before blather on...

 

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 13:31 | 4651352 chemystical
chemystical's picture

Agreed.  The people know they are Russian.  And the OP fails miserably to refute or address either that or the self-determination issue.

A quick wikipedia tour of the history of Ukr could allow the OP's meandering logic to argue that the area is Greece and the people are Greeks.  Or Poles, or Lithuanians, or Khazars, or Bulgars, or Varangians, or Mongols, or Roman, or Byzantine, etc etc etc.  What the OP chooses to do, however, is put a convenient pin on both the map and the clock and say, "Viola!  Ukranians!"

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 16:03 | 4651708 Element
Element's picture

You agree because you are another war mongering shitbird chemystical, another shit-stirrer looking for wars under the pretenses of some high-brow principle, which is only an ad-hoc convenience of the moment to fig-leaf for your hypocrisy. You're welcome.

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 16:16 | 4651699 Element
Element's picture

Then those disgruntled foreigners should get the fuck out of Ukraine if they want to be Russian.

You don't just get to slide in your little war-mongering, borders-changing, war-starting agendas like that pal.

Stop whining and shit-stirring and get the fuck out of Ukraine if you're calling yourself a Russian, you have no place there.

Pretty straight forward.

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 13:24 | 4651326 Bach's_bitch
Bach's_bitch's picture

 

Somehow you confused the bit where I said that RUSSIA was claiming that Ukrainians were Russian.

Which is a bit different from what you are arguing namely that the Ukrainians claiming to be Russian.

It's not different because the point you were trying to make was that it was an act of escalation, by which I assume you mean an unnecessary provocation towards war. Last I checked, Russia did not threaten the neutrality of its neighbours by attempting to incorporate them into NATO. The West/US did. You can't accuse someone of escalating a conflict when it has been started by someone else, unless it was already on the wane when the former acted to escalate it. In this case it wasn't.

The West has not agreed to cease its intervention - in the name of freedom and democracy - into the affairs of a country that has far closer ties with Russia than with the West. According to your warped reasoning, a man who attempts to block a punch is escalating a conflict, because the other person may get angry if he blocks it and try to punch him again.

 

Well that's terrific, if they want to be Russian, emigrate.

So how exactly are you qualified to decide what those people should do in this situation? You wrote that like it's some kind of basic law of nature, which leads me to think that your actual knowledge about this whole issue amounts to fuck all. 

I almost never comment, but someone really has to say this to all these commenters accusing anyone who shows any approval for Russia's actions in Ukraine "Putin-lovers" and whatnot. Here it is: we know how enlightened you are because you can understand that there is no good or bad side in this conflict, and that there are many sins/errors on both sides. Congratulations. You have reached a new level of zen. Now please STFU.

Thank you.

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 16:14 | 4651751 Element
Element's picture

Not shutting-up for you, ever, it won't matter what you say to reinterpret or twist my words.

I said this is an escalation, not a provocation, and I said it is not the be encouraged.

If you have any problem with that, of any kind, then tough luck, you are a complete and utter idiot if you think escalation to combat should be encouraged.

And if you have any problems at all with the notion that people who want to be Russians, and to live in Russia must emigrate to Russia, rather than try to start an armed conflict within Ukraine, then likewise you can got to hell, for you are an idiot if you feel carving up Ukraine will resolve this in anyway that you will not eventually massively regret.

And more generally, you can just get stuffed if you don't like me saying it. I'll say it and expand on it as much as I like thanks

 

mmmkay?  :-D

Sun, 04/13/2014 - 01:30 | 4653265 Bach's_bitch
Bach's_bitch's picture

 

 

Not shutting-up for you, ever, it won't matter what you say to reinterpret or twist my words.

I said this is an escalation, not a provocation, and I said it is not the be encouraged.

 

Yeah, you're just one mean rattle-snake.

BTW, please explain how an an act escalation of conflict excludes an act of provocation of such? And how is it escalation when someone refuses to surrender to an opponent is unwilling to de-escalate a conflict originally started by them except solely on their terms? Playing the victim is a game that we in the West know all too well, but it doesn't take long to learn it.

 

And if you have any problems at all with the notion that people who want to be Russians, and to live in Russia must emigrate to Russia, rather than try to start an armed conflict within Ukraine, then likewise you can got to hell, for you are an idiot if you feel carving up Ukraine will resolve this in anyway that you will not eventually massively regret.

It's an armed conflict that both Ukraine, Russia and the West will have had a part in provoking, or "escalating" if you will. The blame for that falls upon the West and the Ukraine govt. much more than it does upon Russia. Ukraine isn't being carved up anymore than the British empire was carved up. The provinces of eastern and south eastern Ukraine do not belong to the nation of Ukraine, whether historically, culturally, or ethnically.

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 15:59 | 4651695 silvermail
silvermail's picture

I'm sorry, to pee on your bonfire, but all your guesses and assumptions are very far from the real truth.
First, those Russian people who live in the Crimea, Donetsk, Lugansk, Kharkov and the rest of South-Eastern Ukraine, are indigenous inhabitants of these lands. Bolsheviks, annexed all this land from Russia to Ukraine, together with the indigenous Russian population. The Bolsheviks did it violently, through tears, sorrow and blood of the Russian people. All Russian, who were against this accession for Ukraine, was physically destroyed or sent to the Gulag camps.

This is a map of lands, that Russia gave Ukraine in different years:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpDyt6PlCJs
http://www.liveinternet.ru/users/3948302/post315203230/

Moreover, the Ukrainian famine, which you call as "Stalin's struggle against the Ukrainians," in fact, occurred on these former Russian lands.
Most of Russian people was dead of this hunger, but not Ukrainians. But Western propaganda always lies about it, with the aim to put the Ukrainians as a "victim of genocide by the Russian."

Secondly, trying to talk about Russia and Russians, you should understand one very important detail: "Russian" - is not a nationality. "Russian" - a state of soul and mind. Great Russian Empress Catherine II, was German. But she was Russian in her soul. The great Russian poet Pushkin - was Ethiopia. But he was a Russian soul. Great Russian Admiral Kolchak was a Turk. But he was a Russian soul. All Russian history is filled with outstanding personalities from the Netherlands, Germany, Austria, France and so on. All of these great people have contributed immensely to the development of Russia . They were citizens of Russia and considered it an honor to be called "Russian". They were Russian soul and mind.

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 16:22 | 4651780 Element
Element's picture

Oh blah blah blow it out of your arse, your just pushing wars and murder of people who want no part of your thirst for insanity. Go to Russia and be an arse-clown there and stop meddling in a state you have no right to start such shit in, you are as bad as the neo-nazis that you claim to be the real problem. Your enemy is you.

Russian soul-mind ... jesus bloody krist, now I've heard it all, who left the bloody monkey cage open again?

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 18:55 | 4652256 silvermail
silvermail's picture

100% emotion. Arguments and Facts 0%.

Planted by Washington the so-called  power in Kiev is illegitimate. People do not recognize this fascist power that's hard to understand?

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 12:30 | 4651177 free_lunch
free_lunch's picture

You are viewing people as assets somebody owns.  What happened to "democracy"?

Violence won't solve anything, if Kiev starts killing people, they will loose credibility in West-Ukraine also. And internationally it will become harder and harder for the Western governments to sell this Kiev government to the public opinion without losing credibility with their own citizens themselves.

Hopefully all players involved will find a peaceful compromise.

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 13:02 | 4651261 Element
Element's picture

 

 
"You are viewing people as assets somebody owns. "

Horseshit! Says you, I said no such thing.

I said they are Ukrainian, which they are. That is a fact, not a value judgement on my part, it's on their passport.

If you are stll confused about that I can't help you.

 

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 13:45 | 4651386 free_lunch
free_lunch's picture

 

If one is ruled by people that came to power without an election,dictating your life, how do you name this? Democracy? Dictatorship? an occupation?

The first thing that should have been done was have a democratic election, before deciding to borrow money from IMF or any other party. Without elections they have no authority to make decisions that will determine the future of the people is such violent ways without the peoples mandate.

Democracy seems to be a thing of the past, instead Troika and puppet governments seem to be the new trend.

 

Following your logic:

If the Chinese overthrow the US government that's OK with you, just because you are an American? If you don't like to be ruled by Chinese, you would leave everything you own including your family and move to another country?

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 16:33 | 4651824 Element
Element's picture

Two wrongs do not make right, it makes it worse. You want to pull on the knot until it can't be unpicked and has to be cut and removed. Clever.

I'm not American, whatever the hell that's supposed to have to do with the basic facts.

All I said was this is an escalation and that should not be encouraged.

If you have a problem with that then too fucking bad.

You want to make more of it than that simple reality, with excuses about prior wrongs? Well that's your problem.

Absolutely nothing will be fixed or improved by escalation, so if you are encouraging that to occur, then I think you are the dumbest of fools.

I'm not interested or swayed by hypothetical bullshit adhoc straw-man excuses that you just pulled out of your arse. I said what I said, and I said no more than that, so to hell with you if you want to twist that into something I did not say.

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 19:25 | 4652373 silvermail
silvermail's picture

For the complete victory of American democracy, Lavrov must urgently come to Donetsk and start handing out cookies in the town square.
Damn, where Lavrov with cookies when we need it?

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 16:20 | 4651729 silvermail
silvermail's picture

@ Element

Where did you learn to lie so professional and so confidently?

1. Passports Ukrainian citizens there is no column "nationality".
http://rodrus.com/news/news_1358672841.html

2. In the southeast Ukraine is home to most of Ukraine's ethnic Russian citizens, not Ukrainians. Because it is native Russian land, that the Bolsheviks force attached to Ukraine, together with Russian people.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpDyt6PlCJs

http://www.liveinternet.ru/users/3948302/post315203230/

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 16:42 | 4651865 Element
Element's picture

Well thanks for the unnecessary hystery lesson, gee I didn't know any of that - NOT.

If you don't think borders and territorial limits matter then what was all the shit with Hitler and Moscow?

You can't have it both ways, you either accept the nation state of everyone, or none of them, for your borders also will not be respected and observed in that case.

Feel better? Think you've got a better more just and more stable world now?

And I might well ask you where I've lied at any point?

Ukrainian citizens, by your own admission, have a Ukrainian state passport, so are you fucking retarded, or just unable to grasp that?

Jesus fucking krist, you people are a bloody joke, did you get your brains from a cornflakes packet?

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 19:05 | 4652302 silvermail
silvermail's picture

You really that stupid or do you play so naturally the role of stupid man?
You lied at least twice and I caught you tongue twice. Or should I quote your bullshit on words and letters ?

Personally for you and someone as you, I explain: People define the boundaries , but boundaries define people. Residents of Crimea , as residents of autonomy with its constitution , is to legally adopted a declaration of independence. And only after that , they had a referendum expeditiously on the entry into Russia.
Thus , Crimea became part of Russia as an independent Authority, after separation from Ukraine.

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 23:45 | 4653006 Element
Element's picture

You talk shameless warmongering drivel like you're at Kindergarten level, You try to assert there are 'lies', when there are none whatever. My words are right there above for every one to see, and there is no attempt of any kind to lie. You're trying to shoot the messenger because you don't like the message and you know it's tellingly valid and you have no effective counter argument to it.

I said escalation is not to be encouraged and that Russia's effective claim that Ukrainian nationals in Ukraine are really Russians, is utter horseshit, they are legally Ukrainians and Russia has no rights or say over them.

That is all that I've said and not one thing said by anyone above has changed that, and it won't by berating me with misrepresentations or false accusation.

Russia has zero right to interfere in the interior affairs of Ukraine, or to encourage separatist sentiments, and Russia is acting like an aggressor if it does. I am not even asserting that it has as yet, but if it does, then that's an open and shut case of naked international aggression which has no reasonable justification.

Not paying the power bill is also not an excuse for war it's just a bad business bill and a poor choice made by Russia. Preceding events since November 19th 2013 are also irrelevant to any of that. 

What Russia is leaning towards is from the same pretext-creation playbook as Obama and Clinton used in Libya, and Bush and Powell used in Iraq, to invade without any reasonable justification. It is the sort of willful escalation that murders hundreds of thousands and destabilizes whole regions for decades, and it will definitely lead us towards the precipice of a nuclear exchange.

So I have no hesitation in pointing that out to any 'side' and I don't care if you or anyone else doesn't like that and wants to whine and snivel, or to accuse.

Putin and Lavrov can go to hell if they want to start acting like Hitler did, while claiming to be somehow justified. It's up to them to act wisely and carefully and make it known that they are not going to support separatist action or militating. They do have to deal with this mess, and just avoiding it by saying the circus in Kiev is not a legitimate (nor recognized) govt, although quite true, does not relieve Putin and Lavrov of their responsibilities to deal with them if necessary to resolve this mess short of a civil war.

You clearly seem to be trying to support civil-war and an invasion, so to me you're just a devious little bastard who's demonstrating populist sentiment and malevolent intent toward that end. You're are from the same cohort as the NEOCONs, you are just a sympathizer for the Russian and Slavic version of it.

Your whole collective warmongering cohort is a villainous scourge on this planet.  I've said the same sort of things to Americans and Europeans before Libya was destroyed, and before Iraq, and I'll say it to Russians now, you're completely out of line and your govt is beginning to act like a threat to the rest of the world in the same way Bush and Obama have done.

Lavrov needs to earn his pay and Putin needs to start thinking about the consequences, because a Russian invasion of Ukraine proper, will result in armed resistance and insurgency and the entire country of Ukraine will be destroyed, and Putin and Lavrov will certainly be held responsible for that.

You will never find me defending Euromaidan actions or the actions of NATO and Washington neocons for generating this situation. They are certainly scurrilous provocateurs, but that fact will not excuse Putin for choosing war when he has the ability and responsibility to quash this whole situation by denying support to separatism to prevent further internal fragmentation of Ukraine.

Since Crimea changed hands the result is Putin's mess, he inherited it at that point. The West has already said they are not going to pursue a military engagement, so Putin needs to make it known that he is not supporting separatist action and will not be supporting moves to a civil war or any level of invasion.

If Putin wants to put pressure on NATO to abandon Washington's interventionism then a civil war in Ukraine will be completely counterproductive to that end. It's up to Putin to choose to prevent that. Frankly getting the US neocons out of European foreign policy could only be a massive net positive for the entire world, and to foolishly squander that opportunity in Ukraine due to the action of provocateurs (even if they are Washington's hired mercs) is epically foolish and will severely impair Russia's prospects from here on.

The neocons want Russia to make that mistake.

Sun, 04/13/2014 - 01:51 | 4653291 Bach's_bitch
Bach's_bitch's picture

 

Russia has zero right to interfere in the interior affairs of Ukraine, or to encourage separatist sentiments, and Russia is acting like an aggressor if it does. I am not even asserting that it has as yet, but if it does, then that's an open and shut case of naked international aggression which has no reasonable justification.

This isn't even good nonsense. Russia was not the one who started that damned revolution! How can you accuse anyone of naked aggression when it is in *response* to aggression?

What Russia is leaning towards is from the same pretext-creation playbook as Obama and Clinton used in Libya, and Bush and Powell used in Iraq, to invade without any reasonable justification.

The pretext in this case is justified. The govt. in Kiev is illegitimate, violent to Russia and all too willing to play ball with NATO, all of which are serious strategic threats against Russia. I don't think Putin is a beacon for humanity any more than you do, but it can't be denied that his diplomacy is sound in this case. I'm sure this whole mess is playing into his hands, and that he doesn't hold the well-being of the seceded provinces before his own agendas. That, however, is irrelevant.

The West has already said they are not going to pursue a military engagement, so Putin needs to make it known that he is not supporting separatist action and will not be supporting moves to a civil war or any level of invasion.

If the people in the former Russian provinces want to rejoin Russia, then it's up to them. Are you suggesting Russia should just remain neutral to them, or discourage them from seceding from a govt. that is clearly ineffectual, anti-Russian and a puppet of the West?

Mon, 04/14/2014 - 07:36 | 4656209 Element
Element's picture

A response to Ukrainian aggression?

Well, I'll just reply to your opening paragraph, as I didn't even bother reading the rest (and I really didn't)

Let's see ... the people get used by Euromaidan to oust a corrupt asshole in Kiev ... Russia takes Crimea with military forces ... and also takes Ukraine's navy by force as well ... but Ukraine's military's protecting what remains of their territory is considered aggression against Russia, by you.

Can you see why I am 100 PERCENT CONFIDENT that you are a totally disingenuous one-eyed utter fucking idiot yet?

Thus I didn't read any thing else you squatted out, and I also won't again. I have never done that with another zh poster before, so consider it a sign of my contempt for your capacity to be honest to face facts.

That's you done.

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 13:18 | 4651308 Joe A
Joe A's picture

Aks the people on the ground there if they feel Ukranian or Russian. It is just like in Yugoslavia: "why should I be a minority in your country if you could be a minority in my country?". In the former YU most people are ethnically the same but they still wanted to be in their own seperate country. While in Bosnia the European Community trojka tried to avoid a civil, the US just barged in an told Sarajevo that is was ok to proclaim independence while everybody knew that that would lead to civil war. In the end the Dayton agreement was more or less a copy of a previous EC proposal. This time in Ukraine when Nuland said "Fuck the EU", the EU didn't want to get sidetracked like in Bosnia and jumped on the bandwagon. But what a mistaka to maka. They only facilitated Russia.

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 16:45 | 4651874 Element
Element's picture

Well said, that's essentially it, a civil war will result if people don't wake up and say no very quickly.

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 11:35 | 4650960 Leaping Lizard
Leaping Lizard's picture

Unfortunately, the US Cavalry will probably come riding in.  This is all orchestrated.  And NATO will do about as well as Custer did at Little Big Horn.  Then it is time to unleash the nukes.

What many do not understand is that there is a major faction among the Ziocons that are possessed psychotics and want to start a global nuclear war.  This makes the chess board much more complicated for Putin.  He is caught in a Catch 22.

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 12:08 | 4651099 Xibalba
Xibalba's picture

Ask yourself though....what would the military do if/when the USD becomes worthless?  My guess is, if the US Calvary even got close....China and Russia would begin to dump on the US.  

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 12:49 | 4651231 Canucklehead
Canucklehead's picture

Everyone understands that other currencies will become worthless before the US dollar becomes worthless. This fact is proven out by currency exchange rates in times of stress.

The real question relates to those other countries. What will their militaries do when their currencies become worthless and the US dollar is still on top?

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 16:28 | 4651805 silvermail
silvermail's picture

"What will their militaries do when their currencies become worthless and the US dollar is still on top?"

They will buy real money: Yuans, rubles and gold.

Sun, 04/13/2014 - 13:41 | 4654313 Canucklehead
Canucklehead's picture

... always the comedian. A day late and a "dollar" short...

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 13:26 | 4651337 sushi
sushi's picture

What is referred to as the "US Cavalry" moves at the speed of a loaded cement truck going up a 45 degree slope in first gear.

The invasion of Iraq required more than six months of force build up before Desert Storm was launched. Any US intervention in Ukraine will require an equally long period of build-up to relocate forces and create the logistics chain. This activity will be readily evident to Putin who will see it as an escalation and will prompt him to make a move elsewhere on the chessboard.

Ukraine is not Libya where you can just swoop in with some air assets and start taking out the opposing heavy weapons.

Ukraine is not Af-Pak where you can attempt to drone a population into submission or operate midnight kill squads to murder whomever you please.

THere is a reason the politicians (Kerry et al) are spouting such bombastic nonsense. Such brutal-speak and the drawing of imaginary and unenforceable lines of red crayon represent the only weapons they have available. Putin known this. NATO knows this. THE FUCKED EU knows this.

Basically what we are looking at is a failed state on the eurasisan border that nobody really wants as it is nothing but a huge financial black hole. This is a big threat to the EU economy. They don't want it and cannot afford it.

Behind closed doors the EU will be looking at this mess and trying to measure the benefits of being poodles for the USSA vs the costs of letting the USSA run amok in the world.

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 16:24 | 4651793 silvermail
silvermail's picture

Who told you that Putin is afraid of nuclear war with the U.S. and NATO?
And who told you that the U.S. and NATO, there is at least a chance in a thousand to defeat Russia in a nuclear war?

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 11:36 | 4650964 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Yes, might makes right.

One would think Lavrov has the same ethos when Chechens demonstrate at the Kremlin ;-)

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 11:39 | 4650975 Element
Element's picture

Watch the reds grow on my comment above nmewn, there are people here that are not the least bit honest about what's occurring and how dangerous the implications are.

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 11:45 | 4650991 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Yeah, I know.

Now all Putin has to do is have a few Cossacks shoot some "demonstrators" and its on like Donkey Kong...after all, They Were Warned! so Russia fulfilled its "diplomatic obligations".

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 12:18 | 4651134 Element
Element's picture

Yup, Russia can send in those attack helicopters and slaughter a few hundred people and make all the wrongs right. And look above at the idiots who think that Russia attacking Ukraine is somehow striking a blow for the anarchist cause, and that this will end all govts and produce the utopia that we all crave.  ... hahahha!! ... good grief ... too much bullshit in one sitting.  :-D

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 12:52 | 4651238 nmewn
nmewn's picture

The national psyche of the Russians was damaged pretty badly by the collapse of first the Czars, then communism, perhaps irreparably. But through them both, they always had a sense of pride in empire, even while waiting for the knock at the door to be dragged off to Siberia or standing in a bread line hoping there would still be bread once you got up to the counter...lol.

National pride can be a very deadly thing. Trusting those around you (society, friends & family, instead of the state) has its advantages sometimes ;-)

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 18:19 | 4652157 Element
Element's picture

Spot on nmewn. They're hungry for another run at it too, as are the Chinese so we're in for tense couple of decades. Don't know if we'll make it through this time as it seems the craziness has proliferated greatly. In the 60s and 70s we just had empire craziness and entrenched racism and econo-social ideology. But that Cold-War was a hot-war in Asia right up until the end of the 1970s, it was only Europe that was more stable and had an actual Cold-War. But now, the craziness of the age seems quite a bit more intractable and the alleged 'leadership' of the stick-holders ... geez Louise ... it's not pretty mate.  :-D 

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 20:36 | 4652630 nmewn
nmewn's picture

All of them have their problems.

With China, one needs a permit (of all things) to even move around the country, so many people. With Russia its almost the opposite, move Russians within the borders of former "provinces" and claim the province for Russia (though birth rates have stabilized). With Europe & the US it seems to be an open arms (as in appendages...lol) & open borders policy for cheap labor and generous welfare benefits from printing unicorn decals and sticking them on pieces of paper.

None of this empire shit ever ends well.

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 13:11 | 4651286 Anusocracy
Anusocracy's picture

"Yes, might makes right."

That is the raison d'etre of ALL governments. Something those who still are dwelling in the animal world can't comprehend.

The US is the current poster boy for all evil doers throughout the world.

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 15:24 | 4651602 nmewn
nmewn's picture

And did you notice how many believe Chechens should not be allowed to demonstrate outside the Kremlin?

Lavrov would be most pleased, democraceee! you see ;-)

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 16:42 | 4651867 silvermail
silvermail's picture

In Chechnya, already held a referendum. Response of the people: Together with Russia. You did not know about this? ;-)

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 17:48 | 4652082 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Sometime after the city of Grozny was leveled, no doubt ;-)

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 19:10 | 4652321 silvermail
silvermail's picture

You are mistaken. After the referendum, the city of Grozny was built as the pearl of the Caucasus.

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 20:19 | 4652574 nmewn
nmewn's picture

I am not mistaken. The city of Grozny was leveled by Russia. Something to do with democrceee!...I'm sure.

Built and rebuilt are two very different things my Russian-nationalist friend.

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 16:37 | 4651845 silvermail
silvermail's picture

I do not understand what you do not like. You always wanted that Putin and Russia, learned and studied the democracy of United States. But now that Putin and Russia, have learned well all the lessons of democracy from the United States, you are dissatisfied with something again!

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 11:47 | 4651006 RaceToTheBottom
RaceToTheBottom's picture

The % drive everything.  The 10% that are smart here and the rest that up arrow or down arrow based on the name, not the content.

  • Obama bad
  • Putin against Obama
  • Putin must be good
Sat, 04/12/2014 - 16:49 | 4651890 silvermail
silvermail's picture

I find it hard to compare between Putin and Obama. It is always difficult to compare between a smart man who make decision and a fool, who act as texts talker only.

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 11:48 | 4651010 DeadFred
DeadFred's picture

What has honesty got to do with it? I for one don't want to watch my neighborhood disappear into radioactive vapor but a green or red arrow is about as much as I can do to influence what these sociopaths are doing to my world. A pox on them and their clans but whistling in the dark by commenting on Zerohedge is the only thing I can do.

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 11:57 | 4651048 Element
Element's picture

No problem there Fred, just a lot of foolish people who are not looking past their noses on this, and think their messiah has come. Very silly. War is war, there are no good sides.

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 12:47 | 4651223 Canucklehead
Canucklehead's picture

Fred, why would one worry about green or red arrows? Thousand of readers have read the article. Many did not bother to read the comments. Of those who read the comments, seldom do arrows go above 10.

In a relative sense, you may get satisfaction by jumping in with the arrow herd that had a higher count than that "other" color. But what would that act signify?

Arrows and their colors simply relate to mankind's basest instincts. If you can't be honest, what contribution can you make to the discussion?

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 13:23 | 4651036 Winston Churchill
Winston Churchill's picture

Its like reading the approved history of the start of WWI and wondering how the asassination of

Ferdinand could have sparked it.

Escalation did it, and looks to again. Add in a sprinkle of psychopathy ,and all the makings for WW

are brewing nicely.There is no rational leadership in the west at this point , so just about anything

will light the tinder for a world wide  conflagration.

I'm buying fresh iodine tabs today, they might be needed.

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 16:32 | 4651822 silvermail
silvermail's picture

Yes, the Chechens fought well in Georgia on Russia's side against NATO vassals. ;-)

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 11:49 | 4651013 holmes
holmes's picture

I just want to see McWarmonger and his neo-con sidekicks ride right into the sights of some Russian sharpshooters.

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 12:41 | 4651208 Canucklehead
Canucklehead's picture

Holmes, I see you are an erudite and educated man. How many languages can you use to say the phrase...

Please be gentle.

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 11:52 | 4651029 HardlyZero
HardlyZero's picture

or Exodus.  Who will 'take in' those who leave Ukraine ?  Do you think if there is a Western or Eastern overthow that any Ukraine will actually leave their home or city ?  Let's take notice since this may be the recurring theme for the next few years.

Ukraine is waiting for a Sugar Daddy...who's your Daddy ?

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 12:35 | 4651190 Volkodav
Volkodav's picture

Many Ukr have already left...started weeks ago, especially if they have relatives, place to avoid the bad potential.

Single mothers with daughters are especially worried...

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 12:22 | 4651147 Drifter
Drifter's picture

"If they think the US Cavalry is gonna come ridin' in they get extra stupid points."

Zero's Kiev proxy play is heaping stupid points back on Zero in ways we never imagined.

PCR says Ukraine is America's Waterloo. This is it. The last incursion.

We can assume Zero and his minions don't think so. They'll keep poking the Russian bear there or somewhere, not realizing the Russian bear has grown up ...and has a full grown dragon wingman now.

"Waterloo" sorta sounds like defeat. Euro gas cut off, Losing half Ukraine to Russia, maybe more, then other former Russian satellites.

And somewhere in there dragon and bear flip the switch on their new pan-asian goldish monetary system. 12,000ish tons sounds like enough to get it rolling.

I guess we'll see fairly soon. Popcorn is ready.

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 11:22 | 4650922 zerozulu
zerozulu's picture

Russia, the new leader of the free world.

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 11:27 | 4650940 Ignatius
Ignatius's picture

Have they taken a position on the situation at the Bundy Ranch as yet?

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 12:29 | 4651174 Volkodav
Volkodav's picture

RT is reporting on that...http://rt.com/usa/bundy-ranch-nevada-tensions-940/

Also on RT Live

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 11:28 | 4650941 agent default
agent default's picture

Good.   Now how do WE join the free world? Any ideas?

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 11:34 | 4650958 _ConanTheLibert...
_ConanTheLibertarian_'s picture

Learn Russian?

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 11:47 | 4651004 zerozulu
zerozulu's picture

Russia should have new ministry for asylum seekers.

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 11:53 | 4651038 Ifigenia
Ifigenia's picture

no, have a russian wife

 

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 12:48 | 4651228 Volkodav
Volkodav's picture

This American farm raised from Springfield Missouri did that...lives near Moscow..tells happier than ever and more free. This is his blog:

http://windowstorussia.com/

btw..he is vietnam vet, cordon bleu chef and very worldly...tells it as he sees it

 

 

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 11:51 | 4651026 813kml
813kml's picture

Expatriation

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 11:58 | 4651060 zerozulu
zerozulu's picture

For a starter, how about visiting russianbrides.com   ?

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 11:33 | 4650953 _ConanTheLibert...
_ConanTheLibertarian_'s picture

Who would have thunk.

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 12:39 | 4651159 Volkodav
Volkodav's picture

Well...13% Flat Tax only and rebuild Christ Cathedral was a couple of big starter clues out of the many...

And then there was the stopping that  tie-eater thing 08-08-2008....

http://www.alternet.org/story/112457/that_was_no_small_war_in_georgia_--...

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 16:53 | 4651904 silvermail
silvermail's picture

America - is the main source of terrorism and evil in all the world.

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 11:39 | 4650976 DeliciousSteak
DeliciousSteak's picture

Luckily the Russians recently built a new pipeline through the Baltic straight to Germany.

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 11:56 | 4651047 HardlyZero
HardlyZero's picture

The Nord Stream is the longest underwater pipeline (in the world) built with maximum capacity 55 bcm/year, with two parallel pipelines put in a few years ago.

The total natgas into EU from Ukraine is 80 bcm/year (on wikipedia).  

So at least Germany is covered to a certain extent independent of EU...direct connect to Russia.

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 17:07 | 4651954 Ifigenia
Ifigenia's picture

Ah, you mean Vitoria Nulland failed to drive a wedge between Russia and Europe?

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 11:52 | 4651022 Deathrips
Deathrips's picture

New Headline

 

Putin issues cold showers for all euro boner zio-socialists. Zio-socialists hardon deflates within seconds. Nulands dick shrivels up so fast he turns back into a woman.

 

RIPS

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 11:54 | 4651042 Ifigenia
Ifigenia's picture

and her infamous cookies?

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 12:50 | 4651229 TPTB_r_TBTF
TPTB_r_TBTF's picture

Old Headline:  US exports gas to EU.

New Headline:  Russia fucked until they can get their pipeline to China built.

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