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Ukraine Mobilizes Military, Gives Separatists Ultimatum; Russia Slams Escalation As "Criminal", Yanukovich Warns Of Civil War
If Russia's intention was to give Ukraine enough "escalation" rope with which to hang itself once again, it may have succeeded when a little over an hour ago acting president Oleksander Turchinov said in a televized address that Ukraine has mobilized its armed forces to launch a "full-scale anti-terrorist operation" against pro-Russian separatists. Furthermore, knowing the only real escalation Kiev can engage in is in the war of words department, Ukraine set an 0600 GMT Monday deadline for pro-Russian separatists to give up their weapons and leave buildings they have occupied in the east of the country, a presidential decree said. It is unclear if this would be the catalyst to launch the military operation, but should Kiev indeed bring in the army it is certainly clear that Russia will respond in kind.
Reuters reports:
Angered by the death of a state security officer and the wounding of two of his comrades near the flashpoint eastern city of Slaviansk, Turchinov gave rebels occupying state buildings until Monday morning to lay down their weapons.
He blamed Russia, which opposed a pro-Europe uprising that forced Moscow-backed former president Viktor Yanukovich to flee, for being behind the rash of rebellions across Russian-speaking towns in eastern Ukraine.
"The blood of Ukrainian heroes has been shed in a war which the Russian Federation is waging against Ukraine," he said in an address to the nation. "The aggressor has not stopped and is continuing to sow disorder in the east of the country."
Russia promptly responded, alleging Ukraine's planned operation is criminal:
Russia's Foreign Ministry said on Sunday that an announcement by the authorities in Kiev that they will mobilise the army to put down a rebellion by pro-Russian militants in eastern Ukraine was a "criminal order".
The ministry said the West should bring its allies in Ukraine's government under control. "It is now the West's responsibility to prevent civil war in Ukraine," it said in a statement posted on Facebook.
It also said that Russia would put an urgent discussion of the situation in eastern Ukraine on the agenda of the United Nations Security Council.
"The situation in southeastern Ukraine is taking on an extremely dangerous character. The authorities in Kiev, who put themselves in power as a result of a coup d'etat, have set a course to use force to put down popular protests," the statement said.
"We decisively condemn attempts to use brute force against protesters and activists ... We are particularly indignant about the criminal order of (Ukrainian Acting President Oleksander Turchinov) to use the army to put down protest."
The statement said the West had sponsored the rulers in Kiev and should now "rein in its out-of-control proteges, force them to distance themselves from neo-Nazis and other extremists, stop using armed force against the Ukrainian people, and immediately start a genuine dialogue".
As usual, the only solace out of NATO was issuing wordy statements:
With East-West relations in crisis, NATO described the appearance in eastern Ukraine of men with specialised Russian weapons and identical uniforms without insignia - as previously worn by Moscow's troops when they seized Crimea - as a "grave development".
Adding even more fuel to what increasingly appear a civil war fire, was self-exiled president Yanukovich who said in a televized from Russia's Roston-on-Don that Ukraine is a foot in the door to civil war. “Blood was spilt today,” Yankovich told journalists referring to the events in the eastern city of Slavyansk. “Now our country finds itself in a totally new situation – with one foot in the door of a civil war. Kiev junta has issued a criminal order to use military forces.”
Part of the responsibility for dragging the country into domestic war lays on the US, which brutally interfere in the situation and to point out what to do, Yanukovich said. The ousted president declared that CIA chief John Brennan visited Ukraine and it was after the meeting that the coup-imposed authorities in Kiev ordered a military operation in the country’s east.
Brennan “de facto sanctioned” the use of weapons and thus provoked the bloodshed, Yanukovich said.
Ukraine is now “inexorably” heading towards bankruptcy, Yanukovich also warned in his speech.
So according to the counter-West narrative, it is the CIA's actions that have led to the escalation in the east, not Russian actions. Bottom line: for now lots of enflamed words, yet no actual actions to resist the "pro Russia separatists." And in the meantime the casualties mount:
Though the Ukrainian military did not resist the Russian takeover of Crimea with force, Turchinov threatened robust action against the rebels in the east. "The National Security and Defence Council has decided to launch a full-scale anti-terrorist operation involving the armed forces of Ukraine," he declared.
Ukraine has repeatedly said the rebellions are inspired and directed by the Kremlin. But action to dislodge the armed militants risks tipping the stand-off into a new, dangerous phase as Moscow has warned it will protect the region's Russian-speakers if they come under attack.
One Ukrainian state security officer was killed and five were wounded on the government side in Sunday's operation in Slaviansk, interior minister Arsen Avakov said. "There were dead and wounded on both sides," he wrote on his Facebook page.
Looking ahead in terms of immediate catalysts, 0600 GMT is in a few hours hours, and certainly well before the US market opens. What happens then, certainly nothing if Russian response to previous Ukraine ultimatums is any indication, may determine of last week's sell off continues in earnest on Monday or if, by some surprising development, there is a relief rally.
Finally, this just in: SECURITY COUNCIL WILL MEET AT 8 PM NY TIME FOR EMERGENCY MEETING ON UKRAINE CRISIS - RUSSIA'S NEWS AGENCY CITING UN SOURCE.
Or just in time for the Nikkei open.
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LET THE GAMES BEGIN!
/s
Whoop! Whoop!
good for 20 on the spoos.... and sell gold hard.....
Wouldn't folks turn to gold?
? what happened to those special ops guys rapelling over terrorist air conditioners?
I knew I shouldn't have held my S&P puts over the weekend. This horrible news will most likely send the Chuck Schumer index (aka SPY) to New All Time Highs on Monday.
Civil war, the fruit of Americas/CIA sowing democracy. "America ruins the world to rule it"
@oldballplayer
Not to disrespect but on which day last week did you arrive on planet earth?
More useless talkings by the Kiev Kriminals. They are losing, and they know it.
Yup.
And time is not on their side which is why they need a crushing victory over the pro-Russian movement now. All Putin has to do is wait.
When "Yat the Rat" finally administers the IMF 'medicine' and asset strip to the Ukrainian population they will all fight to join Russia.
I mean somebody (the industrial East) has to pay that $140B debt to the bankers right?
Popular televangelist claims four blood moons are sign of ‘world-shaking event’
Thank the dear Lord I was precient enough to go buy a couple cases of Jack yesterday.
If it lasts through the first moon I hope not to care enough get more for the second one.
And hmm.. why do the source dudes put that moon next to a Russian Orthodox onion steeple?
< Russia will invade
< Russia will be happy to sit quietly and watch the citizens turn on the neoNudelmen (and finally get paid the market price for it's gas)
BETS?
I think the green light was given when putin struck a deal with the EU to pay off ukraine's debts in order to keep the gas flowing...
<- Russia will send covert forces in to attack the Kiev military, but not invade
<- no covert forces, no invasion
Give me $5 on the Russkie.
I wonder about the loyalty of your average Ukrainian troop commander, trained in conventional warfare. One assumes that years have been spent wargaming various scenarios. Short term and especially long term, it is hard to imagine a realistic outcome that is favourable to the Zionazis. If I was leading my soldiers into battle and already had an inkling of what lies ahead, would I continue mindlessly on my present course?
Far more likely is continuation of the mercenary hijinks witnessed everywhere else over the last decade. This is not going to be over quickly. We are likely witnessing a new failed state -- another Afghanistan -- with skirmishes and hit-and-run tactics and general breakdown in civilization, assuming of course that local civilians do not take matters into their own hands and carry out a little housecleaning of their own, in which case it could all be over quickly. Ukrainians may be poor, but they are ethical and hardworking, with sharp memory of past conflict and resentment over past abuses. They will not suffer occupation quietly. Blowback may exceed expectations. Let's speculate now that this is going to be much messier and more brutal than Afghanistan. Banksters tend to focus too much on securing resources. They don't think of human cost, which to them is intangible.
True but the invasion perfected by the USA is an indirect one, the Ukrainians are not that sophisticated to understand what trap they are falling into
Funny.
'American' societies field professional armies. Ukraine wont be different in this regard.
Afghanistan is not a failed state. 'Americans' think long term. 'Americans' have a long history of using drugs to subdue people who resist to them. Same setting here: 'americans' have turned Afghanistan is a powerful drugs maker so to have an easy way to flood the russian market.
It is how it works in an 'american' world.
***
http://stateofthenation2012.com/?p=4764
I don't disagree. It is interesting how we have to use labels with care, and read between the lines, yes?
Truthseeker: Do you take astrology seriously? Do they?
Dudes...those are just burning 10 year old radial tires in the picture.
At the Emergency UN meeting they will be burning Cuban Cigars, and drinking the good stuff (brought out every 50 years).
It stinks.
The clock is ticking on the Ukr debt and next Winter.
Russia is Putin' on a Ritz to escalate the decision making process (done).
..and those seven curse dinners in Brussells by the EU and G7... washed down by a few bottles of Dom ... while discussing how to 'help' those poor Ukies like they 'helped' the Greeks.
Speaking of burning tires, when is Al Gore going to jet in and tell them to stop with the pollution and all?
Everyone catch "acting President?"
Me thinks that says a lot.
Beans: You got the wrong Al Qaeda. Gore is a mouthpiece for globalist-sponsored ENVIRONMENTAL Al Qaeda; the western contractor psychopaths who took potshots at civilians in the February Maidan protests are state-sponsored Zio-Nazi GEOPOLITICAL Al Qaeda. Get your Al Qaedas straight!
How droll.
zionazis. that says a lot.
Well, you know what I mean. Labels are transferable.
I mean somebody (the industrial East) has to pay that $140B debt to the bankers right?
They can pay it with all the gold in Kiev. Oh wait, that's in America for safe keeping. Silly me.
On that note..I try to avoid msm..but does anyone know if people are really believing that russia is the bad guy in all this?..
Just curious. Thanks
Not sure what anyone believes anymore. As per usual everyone is out for themselves.
The Ukrainians in the West want to join the E.U. so they can leave for Germany to find a job or live on social assistance. Others just want the freedom to be able to kill Russians, Jews and other riffraff.
The Ukrainian/Russians in the East don't want to lose their jobs and be broke like the Ukrainians in the West. They also don't wish to be killed or otherwise abused by the neoNudelmen so they want to be largely independant or join Russia.
The leaders like "Yat the Rat" are bought and paid for by the West in order to assist the Western bankers that made some bad loans, firesale the country to the neoLibs, and also bring NATO to the doorstep of Russia.
Russia wishes to keep NATO at bay, get paid for it's gas, and get back some of it's former territory that was given away by a drunken Ukrainian communist to the Ukraine.
That's just for starters...
there's this: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/monkey-cage/wp/2014/04/07/the-less-a...
of course if you thought ukraine was between alberta and manitoba, having the russians take over a hunk of it might seem more threatening.
It came to be known as "Bundy's War," well, at least here.
Shit's getting real there. Some serious clashes and announcements leading up to an increase in propagada coming up real soon.
I never even knew cattle ate endangered tortoises...
Domestic Terriss Cattle do. DTCs, we call 'em in the biz.
Bundeswehr?
Cows trample nests and eat vegetation so it competes with the tortoise in that regard from what I've been told.
I can sort of agree with the government position here, but they moved in such a ham-fisted way they deserved to be smacked around by their own hubris.
Where are the intelligent leaders? We're constantly told we are the most educated generation in world history. I'm not seeing it? Or am I blind???
There's education in the sense of learning that 2+2=4, and then there's education that 2+2=5. It took me almost a decade to deprogram after finishing high school.
Then I got a job teaching part time at a school; the propaganda is not only in the sense of the content given, but much more in the sense of 1) the content that is left out, and 2) the school experience of "learning" by a having an apparatchick talk at you 6 hours a day.
@ laboratorymike - - - I don't know if you've seen this before, but I think you'll find it very interesting as it speaks to your experience as a student and as a teacher. 'Education' does exactly what it was designed to do (starting about a century ago). The student passivity, lack of engagement in uninteresting irrelevant topics, and rat maze movement dictated by a ringing bells between class periods isn't an accident -
The Underground History of American Education - John Taylor Gatto:
http://johntaylorgatto.com/underground/index.htm
P.S. - - - my nephew took a high school course in 'earth sciences'. It was filled with propaganda blather about 'global warming'. When my nephew tried to ask questions about counter-arguments and bring up Climate-gate, the 'teacher' would have none of it. Had to follow 'the book'. My nephew saw that it was all b.s. and did the minimum needed to pass & get out of that 'school', which is rated as one of the 'top' public high schools in the state. They do have multi million dollar sports facilities however (sarc).
China builds skyscraper skylines as its legacy, America leaves billows of black smoke in its wake.
Must break more windows for prosperity, err, posterity?
Don't forget to mention the depleted uranium
We're spreading fracking not democracy but that was funny.
"At the helm of the new energy diplomacy effort is Carlos Pascual, a former American ambassador to Ukraine, who leads the State Department’s Bureau of Energy Resources. The 85-person bureau was created in late 2011 by Hillary Rodham Clinton, the secretary of state at the time, for the purpose of channeling the domestic energy boom into a geopolitical tool to advance American interests around the world."
Chevron has no plans to end fracking agreement with Ukraine
Obama's 'voluntary' inaugural disclosure left out some big corporate checks
Exxon, Chevron, BP Greased Obama's Campaignsmartknowledgeu has an intresting video about Ukraine
We can't have moar war without moar QE!
PS. Moar
IMHO That pic was taken at some kind of rehearsal, far away from actual bad dudes. Probably for PR Purposes.
If you can get on the roof, you wouldn't want to go down a rope on the side of a building unless you had to (and you didn't have anyone inside you were worried about shooting, like your fellow team members). You would want to go down the stairs or maybe an elevator shaft using a hook/rope ladder.
The "en rappel" method is more likely used for hostage takers, where a shot through the window (not available from an adjacent covered position) might do some good. not a building packed with bad dudes where rolling grenades down the stairs works just fine.
Like the famous fake Muslim Brotherhood protestors?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yOtgjrPmJtY
Haha. Yeah.
Look at this pic:
http://www.interpretermag.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/BlGmcLBCYAEL5Mx...
These guys are NOT assaulting bad dudes holed up in that building.
They look like they are scaring the crap out of a delinquent babysitter.. Maybe. Or they are a touring "Vertical Dance" crew from some Cirque Du Soleil show.
This whole Ukraine is Assaulting "Terrorists" meme is a fraud.
The Russian SF have pulled another brilliant coup ala Crimea.
They learned to not use the un-marked Uniforms and instead dressed up like Portuguese tourists so AP photogs wouldn't "Make 'em".
The evolution of these events is fascinating from an operational standpoint and the Russian SF operators are really in their element and showing some remarkable professionalism and restraint. They are certainly getting attention and some admiration in the operations communities around the world.
- Interpetermag.com is obviously run by pro current western TPTB folks... I almost feel sorry for them. They are trying to fight a war against veteran SF and Intel operations people by using Facebook, Twitter and all sorts of ridiculous online polls. The Editor was invited to argue his point on RT and could only respond with ad hominem attacks on the RT editor who invited him (and was proud of it too).
They do serve as a decent aggregator of photography from the conflict and as a kind of negative radar system - (Where there is a hole, you know there is something to look into). Overall, I am grateful for their service and look at them as kind of a counterweight to RT et al. Just don't believe everything you read there (or anywhere else for that matter).
@ Thanatos - - - thank you for an excellent post
Dunno. But Miguel Angel Jimenez nearly got a hole in one at the Masters. Love that wine drinking, cigar smoking old guy.
Warmup porn
You are new at this, gold, thing aren't you?
This must by why 1 oz. silver rounds are selling at 40 a pop on eBay. That will probably be seen as cheap by next weekend.
Don't buy silver on ebay.
And don't sell silver on eBay.
Don't sell silver...period.
Haven't bought silver on eBay in years.
But I'm walking down to get a shiny rouind in a few minutes.
You may NOT buy on ebay, but it will be where the "average joe" who is panicing will buy, and a great barameter of what the hell is going on in the trenches!
The escalation in the Ukraine is rapidly spiralling out of control. Hopefully the West does not poke the beast too hard. The ramifications will not be good for anyone.
http://schiffblog.blogspot.ca/
There will be no civil war. Once the UNSC meets and nothing is done, the Russians will wait until the Ukrainian mlitary hits their people in force then retaliate with a full blown invasion cutting Odessa and the East off from Kiev. And it could get bloody, watch Brent and WTI overnight...
04.13 14:50 ET BREAKING NEWS: Ukraine on the Brink of Civil WarCivil war seems almost inevitable now. But a Russian military incursion will not be immediate unless the scale of violence by Kiev is pretty substantial. I don't see that happening because Ukrainian soldiers are handing over their weapons to pro-Russian checkpoints necessitating Kiev sending in "special forces" (aka, loyalists). The cops are refusing to follow orders from Kiev to suppress the Russian minorities there. The military is handing over their weapons without a fight at checkpoints. You'd think that the Kiev regime would be evaluating how much critical support they actually have before they go off and double-down on potential war with Russia.
The problem Putin is likely to shortly face is what happens should Estonian anti-Russian mobs use the pretext of Russian military action in Ukraine to repress or otherwise push out their Russian citizenry? What's Putin going to do, invade a NATO country? Putin has to know this is what Barack "Nobel Pease Prize Laureate" Obama is hoping for. What about Transnistria? Moldova/Romanian would love a good reasont to do their own forced march of Russian citizens out of the area.
There is no sensible reason for Russia to be pushing in this direction of unilateral and overt military interference, no matter how well-intentioned Putin and the Duma may consider it. Putin is a smart man, and even if he wasn't, he's definitely surrounded by them and they understand the trap. I think Putin has been a remarkably prescient and effective world leader, but I'm not going to support him simply to make Obama look like the doofus he is. And Obama will lash out if Putin continues to embarass him at every turn, so it's not in Putin's interest to offer Obama up any situation that would allow for it.
Yes here is some from SAKER: http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.com/2014/04/ukraine-sitrep-april-12-1806-est-and.html
Not anymore.
Russia has no interest whatsoever in sending troops to Ukraine if situation there remains as it is now. The counterrevolution in SE Ukraine is gaining momentum as more people are volunteering and more towns are slipping out of Kiev's control. "Separatists" are much better organized in these past 2-3 days, mostly due to ex-Berkut officers applying their knowledge and military routine in organization. There was also a rumor today that Crimean Cosacs are headed to Donetsk, Slaviansk & Kharkov in support of the resistance.
Putin is a smart man, he will apply diplomatic pressure and follow international law procedures. It would be best for all parts concerned to have a soft landing. However, there's a slight chance that things run out of control. First, if Ukie military engage with full brute force, it will be a brutal start of at least a civil war. What's making me more nervous, though, is statements from Poland and The Baltics that've been uttered during the weekend. If Banderastan forces aren't able to crush the resistance in the SE it is very possible that we see "brotherly" polish/lithuanian forces coming in to "help", which would trigger Russian response and we all know where it goes from there...
Let's hope the Blood Moon will blow a breath of reason into the zionist fuckers' megalomaniacal minds.
"Let's hope the Blood Moon will blow a breath of reason into the zionist fuckers' megalomaniacal minds."
The problem is their petrodollar base empire is coming down, so every zio-jews is desperate.
please! zionazis. not all jews are zionists, not all zionists are jews. know your enemy.
i know Chomsky, etc. and 98% of jews are normal people like us, the problem is they dont have any influence in Israel or any other place. I dare say they dont represent Israel or zionism
Obama will lash out all right, but not at the Russians. He would have done it by now if so. There is another country he has been lashing out against his whole life to attend to. Vlad knows this. It was transmitted to him.
I'm guessing that you're referring to the UK.
well, I guess he has gone after a few, and it does SEEM somewht random...
people can't sy he's only dumped on the anglos (though England must be stunned and the awake US is definately) - he unloaded on the Egyptians and Libyans - tried to get the Syrians too -
and now the Ukrainians are getting it....
It is probably good to be Asian, they seem to escape the random insanity...
this could just as easily describe Georgie B though (Afghanistan, Iraq with a side of Georgia) though it looked like Georgie and Tony B were peas in a pod.
People rightly criticize BO for his "red line drawing" but what about what Putin has done here? He's basically said that any country that has ethnic Russians in it must treat them with kid gloves, even if they kill state officials and forcibly take over government buildings. If I'm an Eastern European country, I sure as hell don't want any Russians inside my borders at this point that Putin feels he can use as a pretext for invasion.
you may not want them but i doubt you force them out.
i guess it is the time to see how russians in different eastern european countries express their feelings about how they have been treated there. i personally have nothing against russian people though i'm extremely cautious about the kreml just because of the history of my people and country (estonia) in regards of previous russian governments.
Unfortunately for the Baltic Republics, I think you guys may be one of the extants to which Vlad tests the waters regarding the breaking of NATO.
I think NATO needs to redeploy troops to Poland and the Baltics immediately and that means most US troops from Germany too.
This would show that somewhere - someone was serious about NATO. If you see no such action, Vlad will see it as an invitation to go on further adventures.
Crazzziecanuck,
The Estonians, Latvian's etc. have indeed been messing with the Russian speaking population in near past. For example during their primary education, my russian speaking employees from Latvia & friends from Estonia - had to change the language of their studies away from their mothers language. Also many Russian speakers in Baltics can't get an EU passport because they are not able to learn Estonian/Latvian/Lithuanian language good anough to get it. They have quite strict citizenship test's which also has a very positive reaction - there are no african/middle eastern immigrants in the baltics.
The language mess has been tearing the european and russian populations in these countries more far apart, but IMO Putin knows that Baltic states do not pose a real threat to anyone except to Scandinavian (Finnish) liver & genitalia health.
There is absolutely a no way for Estonia to threat their independence after just 23 years for this kind of conflict and fell the same about Latvia. Then Poland is a completely different ball game.
Last time around the baltic states lasted about 2 hours with USSR. These countries really have only 1 major town each.
I think Finnish people dont feel very threatened by the situation at the moment, The nordstream could really stabilize the things here in the north. I think putin also remembers the last time they saw finnish people pissed off http://oi38.tinypic.com/fdccax.jpg :P
The russian money has been flowing to Finland quite hard for the last decade, speaking russian will quarantee you a job here. Still every kid needs to learn Swedish in the school, even we only have 6% finnish-swedish population.
is it really so unheard that people should speak the local language? of course this wouldn't be the case if one thinks baltics legitimately belong to the soviet union or to the russian federation.
lol - when you are dealing with the new world disorder, it is strictly forbidden to enforce a national language, unless we are talking about the countries of the world that no one really gives a darn about - they can enforce whatever they want and no one cares.
Estonian anti-Russian mobs? for christ's sake, where do you people get this crap? you should really stick to commenting things you at least have little idea about.
- Assad in Syria uses against cannibals and thugs army, armored vehicles and aircraft. And for this reason he is "a dictator and a tyrant."
- Turchinov in Ukraine uses against civilians who want just to exercise their legitimate right on referendum, army, armored vehicles and aircraft. And for this reason he is "liberal and a democrat."
It's just a parade of U.S. hypocrisy.
Armed bandits, fascists and impostors, by force seized power in Kiev, with the full support of the United States. Now they called himself the "people", and the real people they called as "separatists."
Putin in this situation has any way for solutions, except a nuclear attack on the United States?
Which way for solutions, call me please?
ZH posters are missing the signal for the noise. Indeed the U.S. spending real money propping up Ukraine and trying to encircle Russia with hostile weapons only makes sense if the U.S. is afraid of the European NATO countries moving toward an alliance with Russia, their energy supplier, and abandoning the U.S. which only drags its NATO allies into expensive and pointless wars. I should imagine that the Danes, the Brits and others are getting a bit tired of U.S. hegemony since it produces no benefits that they could not get more cheaply if they simply let Russia into NATO, as was planned years ago. The fact that the U.S. blocked this speaks volumes.
And the loudest shot across the bow from Russia has nothing proximately to do with Ukraine, but rather its threat that it will only accept payment for its nat gas in Rubles rather than in Euros. As long as Russia is accepting Euros (or dollars) for its gas it is supporting, sub silentio, the Eurozone project in Brussels.
But by ramping up its defense spending it is challenging Germany, France, Italy, Denmark, etc. to ramp up their conventional NATO forces in Europe at considerable expense to them, an expense which the U.S. is unable to pay on their behalf.
The signal, then, is that left undisturbed by the threat of conflict with Russia the Eurozone would shift its alliance and frendship east, and gradually abandon the U.S. One has to wonder how long Germany will tolerate being an occupied country with a constitution imposed on it by and alien power and its gold stored in vaults beyond its control half way around the world
Oceania has always been at war with Eurasia.
I agree with most of your points except for the "Brits" (gov't). They are part and parcel (and potentially still the masters) of Oceania. A major upheaval in the political order of the world seems more and more likely as days pass. Soon, too.
The exact position of the Brits, vis a vis continental europe within NATO is an ambiguous one as you say. But there can be no question that the U.S. is motivated by fear that the members of the European Union will gradually move toward alliance with Russia largely for economic reasons. And if The European Union were to join a currency union with China and Russia the dollar would collapse in spectacular fashion and quickly, as opposed to the manageable and slow (frog in gradually heating water) collapse with the brics alone.
When I was a child in the 1950s the U.S. was a culturally "European" or "Western" country. But now it is a third world country with a vast military and radically unsustainable finances. Without its dollar hegemony, it would be just another banana replublic. Thus, the urge to encircle and dismember Russia is a primary goal of the beltway elites who fail to comprehend, in the presence of so many malliable domestic sheep, the nationalism of the Russian people both in the Russian Republic an in Eastern Ukraine. In the long run, sanctions aimed at Russia are likely to increase instability and stirr up animosity within the European Union against the U.S. and thus increase the risk of that which is driving them to meddle in Ukraine.
I believe there is good logic to your assertion that Russia and Europe could form a real multi-level partnership.
What I wonder is how the oligarchs with their cartels in Russia would get along with the oligarchs and their cartels in Europe?
If we look at Europe as the center of this, then is it better from a banking stand point that the Europeans deal with the American oligarchs and cartels or the Russian ones?
I don't know - either way seems messy to me. The main aspect Russia brings to the table is proximity (which is a big deal -I know) but are the Russians at least as "honest" as the Americans? America can also export natural gas - problem is it comes over an ocean.
Can Mother Russia be trusted to be a good partner and not take advantage of the Europeans and go on a land grab of her surrounding nations?
Can the Euro or Rouble be trusted any more than the USD? We all know that any fiat is a scam.
I don't know. I know that America has less and less to offer other than expeditionary military power. No country wants any relationship with a country thats main export is ass kickings (at least not a long mutually beneficial relationship).
I don't think Europe is ready to let Russia in because Europe is afraid to let Russia call some shots.
Please tell me why I am wrong as I have no steadfast conviction here - just a few thoughts...
What you say is precisely the point of my posts. The situation is in flux and the U.S. doesn't like the direction of the flux. So the U.S. overthows the government of Ukraine to show the members of the European Union that it can just as easily overthrown their governments as well.
Thus the political power structures in the European Union will want to hold on to their jobs and positions of power and the American empire survives for a few more years.
If you're correct, then Europe has more than enough incentive to embrace Russia. If the US oligarchs are peddling fear - which I have no doubt our sociopaths are quite capable, then what better way to put down an adversary and cement a new partnership than to do something like disband NATO and create a new security partnership including the whole of Europe - or at least most of Europe. Perhaps the empire does not survive.
It could be a new Pax Europa for them from an optimistic standpoint. It could also be a loonfest - but thats about what we have now as it is. Europe would just have to look out for the crazy Ivan wildcard.
It was only a few years ago that Russian gas was stopped from being delivered to Europe. Do you think that they be part of the reluctance?
You are assuming that this is about nations. that our politicians work for the nation?
I am afraid that is not the case, it is not about nations, it's about classes. The 0.01% want to make the rest of us poor, so a true old fashion feudal system can be put in place worldwide. The New World Order ruled like a harsh dictatorship, the poorer the people, the easier they are controlled. For them borders and nations are only obstacles to be removed.
Anyway if one would follow the pretense that the nation less elite want to make the majority poor, you can only say that they are doing a great job. Middle class all over the world is shrinking fast!
And in this context Russia cutting the gas and all trade with Europe (Germany) stopped, would surely accelerate poverty for the few countries in Europe that still have a reasonable middle class left. In this context of trying to make Greeks of everybody, everything that is happening makes a lot of sense.
Kevin O'Leary says 3.5 billion people living in poverty is 'fantastic news: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AuqemytQ5QA
World Bank and IMF appalling record of achievement: http://members.iimetro.com.au/~hubbca/globalisation.htm#appalling%20record
You are right that the U.S. .01% is not concerned with the American nation (which incidentally no longer exists).
They are concerned with world wide financial and military domination.
Russia on the other hand is clearly concerned about the Russian nation, which one could sensibly argue, is the only regime in the European world that actually cares about preserving its own ethnic majority.
and its gold stored in vaults beyond its control half way around the world
China?
Oh please.
I'm sure Poland, Hungary, Romania, etc would just love to be in an "alliance with" Russia again. The western Europeans may have had less of a grudge 20 years after the end of the cold war, but if Putin were trying to re-alienate them now he's doing a seriously good job of it.
However annoying US dominance may be for Europeans, I have a seriously hard time believing they'd prefer Russian dominance. And if you think Putin is going to be happy just being one pole in a multipolar alliance, I've got some real cheap land in Utopia Planitia to sell you.
"Let the games begin!"
Game of Thrones you mean.
It's time for Obama to be impeached on the basic charge of being "unfit for office"
after reading the Seymour Hersh piece the guy is dangerous to all Americans
Russia calling on outsiders to intervene to stop a civil war... nice setup. Imagine what they will say if there is an uprising in the US... we'll have Chinese all over the place, for the children of course.
It's time for the west to stop interfering and manipulating. It is time for the east to stop interfering and manipulating. It's all bogus, a power play by the rich and powerful for the rich and powerful. They will not lose in this. Only we the people will.
We can change things - by learning the names of rocks and plants.
If their so pro-russia than go to Russia and leave Ukraine, obviously a Russian provocation to have an excuse to invade east Ukraine. Russian trying to demand respect through fear again, how tragic as they rapidly lose more respect on an international level than they had before. You can never aquire respect through force and intimidation.
Downvote for the incorrect use of the word "their."
The only reason?
And also for his incorrect grasp on reality.
Failing grade for danster82.
Sorry, you have to retake the class.
"Awwww, mannnn...but logic, reason, and independent decision-making skills weren't covered in Common Core."
er...Ukraine is Russia. Has been since the 17th century. Reminds me of Mexicans in California.
Arsehole, I bet you dont have a passport
You sound like a limp dicked lil' fella. If you are "Ukrainian" then get out there and fight for your independance! Instead of being a pussy sitting behind your computer calling me names. If you Ukrainians are so strong, why be a parasite on the back of the EU? Grow a pair, or conform.
yes. or Spain in Mexico and South America. or Portugal in ..., so its been going on over recorded history.
US in Alaska defended Canada from Russian expansion...it works sometime to block and parry.
Everything works always, until it doesn't.
before that...Rus started there
The US is no longer part of the British Empire. Algier does not belong to France any longer. East Germany and West Germany merged. Albania has gone it's own way. Things change. Ukraine is not part of Russia. It has a border with Russia. Most Russian troops are on the Russian side of the border.
As for La Raza, either kick them out or give them California surrounded by a huge militarily fortified wall to keep them there. Oh, and they get all the debt too.
Does anyone else find it funny NATO is MAF that Russian weapons are being used by Ukrainians but is ok with American weapons being used in Syria.
Counterpoint -- Russian weapons have been in Ukraine ever since ... well ... forever, just like American weapons in Syria .... oh wait.
Does anyone find it funny that the USSA tells its NATO allies to FUCK THEMSELVES?
Can anyone point out the long term USSA foreign policy interest in a failed Ukrainian state. Kiev is over 8,000 miles from Foggy Bottom, they have no nukes, their army is either non-existent or size 46 waist, their SU-24's fall out of the sky, they are aligned with neo-nazi's and have a negative bank balance such that every citizen needs a deck of SNAP cards. What precisely is the US interest in Ukraine other than making good on Obummer's stupid crayon lines?
Is it not hilarious that the USSA seeks to dictate to Putin where he can place his forces within the borders of Russia. Hey Dempsey. How about you move all the units in FOrt Hood way back from the Mexican border. Stop threatening Acapulco!
Is Europe laughing over the fact that all this stupid USSA meddling is likely to put their economy back into the ditch.
Are Eurocitizens ROFLTAO that they become front line missle fodder if this stupidity goes hot?
These events make the absolute stupidity of the 1914 blind march into war look like brilliant statecraft by comparison.
Make no mistake, Qatar (and KSA) need those pipelines to the EU. In order to keep KSA and friendz on the PetroDollar, the US has to get those pipelines laid!
Makers of such things don't really care who buys them.
Sellers or Re-Sellers of such things don't worry about details like what flag you fly today.
Users of such things don't care who made it or who sold it, just that it works reliably.
Victims of such things are usually relieved of the capacity to care.
Only the survivors at the very end of the chain seem to care and that care comes too late to make a difference.
And on it goes...
-- I'm off... Gotta call my broker about that BAE/Boeing/GE/Rhienmetal Defense Index Purchase
Good observation. It is rather sickening isn't it?
Do you have some reading comprehension disability, do you live in a remote cave, or what...?
CIA-backed (remember Victoria Nuland?) neo-nazis overthrow the legally elected government (elections overseen by OSCE) in a bloody coup, shooting even on it's own people just to get MSM air time, neo-nazi thugs terorise and threat russian-speaking population of the East Ukraiine, passing "laws" that ban ussage of Russian language and do everything to humiliate them, etc... So, when this Russian speaking population finally had enough and invoked it's right to self-determination and thugs that are illegally on power (no one ever elected them in any form or shape) threat to send in tanks, it is - Russian provocation?
Wow! Go back to your NSA lair for some fresh trollong instructions. The ones you have sux big time!
You must be drunk on the .gov cool aid. Crawl back under the rock from which you came.
You can never acquire respect through farce and intimidating crayon lines.
Fixed it for you.
That BLM Searchlight Harry and Son Farce line in Nevada cleared right up as soon as they went on vacation to China. Chinese Erasers work on BLM Crayon lines.
So, what was wrong with Kosovars simply going to Albanian if they didn't like how they were being treated by the Serbian government in Kosovo?
First, there is no such thing as "Kosovars" - there are just Albanians, Serbs (what was left after Albanian gangs rampage, murders, burning villages and UNESCO World Heritage "protected" churches - 250k Serbs are sill refugees in Serbia - funny you never hear about this in western MSM?) and small number of ethnic Roma and Turks. Second, Kosovo has never been part of Albania, and Albanians were even not a majority before WWII, when Serbs were either mass murdered or expelled by nazis (incidentally, Albanians were on the nazi side). Even the term Kosovo (as well as practically all toponyms there) is Serbian, because, duh, it was Serbian territory for the last 1200 years.
So, no. This is nothing like Crimea or East Ukraine.
But, I digress.
Back to your question - this is precisely what Albanians did with the help of their NATO handlers. In short, every country has some form of mafia, but Kosovo is the first example where heroin mafia has a country. I guess that humongous "Bondsteel" US base built on Serbian Holy Land comes cheaper that way, so oh well... Or, more likely, Clinton had to shift MSM attention from his blowjobs to something else...
Or, do you really suggest that Kosovo is truly independent? In which case I would strongly advise you to consider changing you mushroom supplier.
Anyway, if it was OK for NATO to pluck Kosovo out of Serbia (after savage bombing of infrastructure and civilians), what moral ground it has to complain about Crimea?
My comment was designed to be rhetorical, and was putting forward an idea. The saying: the sauce that's good for the goose is just as good for the gander. It clearly wasn't alright for Kosovars to be displaced out of Kosovo and into Albania. But suddenly people are offering up the (insane) idea that forcible displacement as a good or just idea. "If [Kosovar-Albanians/Russian-Ukrainians] wanted to be with their own kind, they should leave and join [Albania/Russia]."
Agreed with the rhetorical intention.
The problem is, in this particular case it turned out that actually not a single Albanian was displaced into Albania (or anywhere else) before NATO bombing started.
It was yet another NATO false flag and deliberate confusing of cause and effect, like in Iraq, Libya, Syria and now Ukraine.
Actually, a lot of Kosovar Albanians were pushed out of Kosovo. We know this. General Clark warned Clinton before this all started that the atrocities would BEGIN if he started bombing, and lo and behold, it started simply to get the Ken Starr Witchhunt out of the headlines.
Nice style... and content.
Thanks for these nice words!
Unfortunately, my grasp of English grammar is nowhere near where I would like it to be. :-)
And for being a dumbass.
"If their so pro-russia than go to Russia and leave Ukraine"
Mr. Bush Blair siamese is pro Iraq, but i didnt see he live in Iraq.
I'm confused on those last couple of sentences...are you referring to Russia, or the U.S.?
Coming to a town near you!
I fear that you may be 100% correct.
Popcorn check
Cold beer check
zero hedge check
red lines, eeeerrrrrrr, 3,2,1..............
Stock markets still there and opening tomorrow, check ??
(v'been short stox for a few weeks now...so hope everything opens...)
don't you mean 321...oh, wait, you aren't counting the 'number' of red lines Obummer has issued...this week.
Meanwhile, Biden is kicking off his campaign for President, by traveling to Kiev.
"The White House said Saturday that Biden also will assist Ukraine in its efforts aimed at constitutional reform, decentralization, anti-corruption, and free and fair presidential elections set for May 25. Biden will be in the capital, Kiev, on April 22." from NBC News.
Biden gets hurt/injured and it's WWIII.
This is Obama's insane neocon's plan?
um.. like Biden is of any consequence?
geez, buy a shotgun.
Neither was Archduke Ferdinand.
cool.. now I understand.
Like the Archduke, Biden could be a flimsy excuse in this venue because...
he has always been one.
Unfortunately, this probably won't happen...because it has been brought up some many times already....bet the NSA trending came back to the WH and they said 'Shit, there goes that one too.'.
Dibs on Biden's bitchin' Camaro.
If memory serves..it's a TA
but crap. platform wise - in the late 70's.. just about the same diff..
except for the wild fire chicken decal V 2 black stripes.
oh.. almost forgot about the shaker scoop on the 3bbl, the 406 Buick, and the need for rails on the frame to keep the flimsy "F" body roof from cracking from the torque.
Ha, I think you're right about the TA. I always confuse my Onion facts.
Biden is clearly a "Smokey and the Bandit" fan, remove them T-Tops and let the wind flow through his lustrous hair. Or maybe that's what happened to his hair.
CNN Headline: "Biden stubs toe in Ukraine, US fingers Russian vodka responsible, Obama to Tweet invasion plans after Masters Tournament"
Biden is just now practicing the new BLM moonwalk-reverse-goosestep.
Yep. Joe will fall asleep and fall off a chair and hit his head on the Russian designed and, built table. This could bruise East West relations not to mention Joe's melon!
C'mon, Joe wouldn't even flinch when his head splitered the table in half.
..."for President" ... of Ukraine ?
Short euro !!!!
Unfortunately for Draghi, bullish for the EUR!
The Nobel Prize Winner will get his war - after all, you should get something for a $5 billion investment:
Civil war looms as pro-US regime threatens massacre of east Ukraine protesters
By Alex Lantier11 April 2014
Ukraine stands on the brink of civil war, as the unelected pro-Western regime that seized power this February in Kiev threatens a bloody crackdown on protesters occupying local government offices in cities across traditionally pro-Russian sections of eastern Ukraine.
Protesters are demanding a referendum to federalize Ukraine and limit the authority of the new, far-right regime in Kiev. Some protesters have also called on their areas to vote to join Russia, as the former Ukrainian region of Crimea did last month, or declared independent “people’s republics” in Donetsk and Kharkiv.
Andrei Senchenko, the deputy head of the presidential administration in Kiev, said his regime’s security forces would “shoot to kill” if protesters did not abandon buildings in Donetsk, Luhansk and Kharkiv by today.
Senchenko’s threats echoed those of Irina Farion, a legislator from the Fatherland Party of US-backed Prime Minister Arseniy Yatseniuk. She demanded death for the protesters saying, “Today’s reaction is unacceptable. The measures should be much tougher. Our people laid down their lives. That’s why those creatures that arrive here deserve only death.”
Interior Minister Arsen Avakov said that a “special police task force” had arrived from western Ukraine to Donetsk, Luhansk, and Kharkiv, after local police units refused to launch a crackdown. He was apparently referring to the deployment to eastern Ukraine of units of the Kiev regime’s new National Guard and of the fascist Right Sector militia, which led the February putsch in Kiev that toppled pro-Russian Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych.
Kiev’s reckless and hysterical calls for a bloody crackdown on pro-Russian forces in regions of Ukraine with large Russian populations threaten not only to tip Ukraine into civil war, but to lead to a direct clash between Ukraine and Russia. Last month, describing precisely a scenario of a crackdown in eastern Ukraine, Russian President Vladimir Putin said he reserved the right to intervene militarily to defend Russians in the region.
http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2014/04/11/ukra-a11.html
As Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland made clear in her speech last December and in the leaked recording of her telephone conversation with the US ambassador in Kiev, Washington spent $5 billion of US taxpayer dollars engineering a coup in Ukraine that overthrew the elected democratic government.
http://uncensored.co.nz/2014/02/26/the-crisis-in-ukraine/
Hello 200 day, nice to see you, it's been awhile.
SPX 2000 by Wednesday
Is it conceivable that Biden is being set up for assassination, en-route to Kiev?
He is a twat, after all ... Obama would probably be glad to see the back of him.
More importantly, his death would provide all the justification that is required for Western intervention.
A couple of those man-pads, liberated from Gaddafi and operated by Blackwater types. Who knows?
Or, have I consumed too much red wine?
Let's see if your comment gets removed from the internets, then I will know if you were right