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Putin Says Russia Will Respond To NATO Moves, Accuses Kiev Of Plunging Ukraine Into "Abyss"

Tyler Durden's picture




 

It didn't take long for Putin to respond to the latest news from the west that NATO was about to boost its military presence in proximity to Russia. Specifically he said that Putin does not see a reason to fear NATO which was to be expected. But the even more predictable punchline: Russia must respond when NATO moves closer to country’s border, President Vladimir Putin says during annual televised call-in show.

The Russian president made his views clear during a nationally televised question-and-answer session in Moscow on Thursday, ahead of the Geneva two-day meeting during which the Ukraine problam is (again) supposed to get a diplomatic solution (it won't). During the Q&A Putin also accused the Kiev government of committing "a serious crime" by sending in troops to quell unrest in Ukraine's east, as a clash overnight left three pro-Russian protesters dead and 13 wounded. And just to make sure there is a solid enough soundbite, the former KGB spy accused the authorities in Kiev of plunging the country into an "abyss".

"Instead of realizing that there is something wrong with the Ukrainian government and attempting dialogue, they made more threats of force ... This is another very grave crime by Kiev's current leaders," Putin said in a televised question-and-answer session with the Russian public that has become an annual event.

 

"I hope that they are able to realize what a pit, what an abyss the current authorities are in and dragging the country into," said Putin, who dismissed as "rubbish" accusations that Russian agents were acting in east Ukraine.

Among his other comments, Putin said that the East and South Ukraine were parts of the Russian empire until becoming part of Ukraine under the USSR, with a heavy hint that either the East and South would soon be part of Russia, or that the second coming of the USSR is in the cards, both of which should make the Ukraine government quite nervous.

Perhaps in an attempt to diffuse the tension, he noted he had been authorized by Russia's parliament in early March to use force in Ukraine if necessary, "but I really hope that I do not have to exercise this right, and that through political and diplomatic means we will be able to solve the most acute problems in Ukraine today." As the WSJ reports, Putin said Ukraine's military effort showed the new government in Kiev was making no effort to respond to the demands of those in the heavily ethnic-Russian region.

In short: absolutely no de-escalation from the Russian.

Some of the other things he said:

  • Russia will give Ukraine month to start paying for gas before demanding advance payment for supplies. However, Russia kep the gas price set at $485/kcm, knowing quite well Ukraine can't afford it.
    • Ukraine payments for gas stopped after new govt in Kiev took power, Putin says
    • Moving Ukraine to prepayments may lead to disruptions in transit to Europe, Putin says
  • Europe won’t be able to stop buying Russian gas, President Vladimir Putin says during annual televised call-in show.
  • “There is only one problem -- transit -- and the most dangerous element here is, of course, transit though Ukraine, where we’ve found it very difficult to agree on energy issues.”
  • Putin says hopes to reach agreement with Ukraine in accordance with gas contracts
  • Ukraine can be asked to start prepayments for gas “at any moment,” Gazprom Chairman Viktor Zubkov says separately today
  • Decision on Ukraine depends on answer from 18 leaders of European countries that buy Russian gas to letter from Putin: Zubkov
  • Govt in Kiev isn’t legitimate, don’t have national mandate
    • Donetsk, Luhansk, Kharkiv, other eastern, southern regions were part of Russian empire until becoming part of Ukraine under U.S.S.R
    • People have been trying to divide Russia, Ukraine for centuries; Yugoslavia was split up to make it easier to manipulate
    • Russia didn’t force Crimea accession
    • Ukraine political groups must reach compromise, outside forces can only support compromise, not up to Russia, U.S. to resolve Ukraine crisis
  • Moldovan breakaway region should be allowed to choose fate, blocakde of Transnistria must stop.
  • Russia must respond when NATO moves closer to country’s border
  • U.S. anti-missile system isn’t defensive, Putin says
  • Russia, U.S. should work together on missile threats: Putin

Source: Bloomberg

 

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Thu, 04/17/2014 - 07:36 | 4668747 jay28elle
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OK, when it comes down to it, who is going to blink first (or in Obama's case, blink again)?

 

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 07:38 | 4668752 GetZeeGold
GetZeeGold's picture

 

 

All in all....everything seems to be going pretty well.

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 07:43 | 4668766 SpanishGoop
SpanishGoop's picture

All according to plan you mean ?

 

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 07:47 | 4668782 ndotken
ndotken's picture

Does Obama really think Putin is afraid of the great paper tiger? ... Is he that delusional?

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 07:58 | 4668796 Latina Lover
Latina Lover's picture

From the perspective of the US government, you know it is SNAFU, when Brennen is sent on a weekend under an assumed name to 'consult' with the Kiev Kriminals.  Guys like Brennan have their calendar booked months in advance and don' break appointments except for serious crises.

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 08:05 | 4668819 svayambhu108
svayambhu108's picture

Crude oil: 103.68 $

Ask SA to flood the market with oil, :))


Thu, 04/17/2014 - 08:07 | 4668830 ilion
ilion's picture

I'm sure Putin will not do anything serious now that Obama has drawn the read line for couple of times.

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 08:12 | 4668855 TeamDepends
TeamDepends's picture

Reminds us of one of those "Animals Gone Wild" clips where the trainer/handler smacks the bear one too many times with the stick.

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 08:27 | 4668880 svayambhu108
svayambhu108's picture

http://www.sabinabecker.com/media/uncle-sam-meets-russian-bear.jpg

 

And here's the plan if things go wrong, it has very high chances of success taken from the best survival book by Ayn RandHow to kill a bear from arm range without a weapon :

http://www.majorspoilers.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/Sam17.jpg

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 08:36 | 4668932 dontgoforit
dontgoforit's picture

I hope the handlers of the nex-gen weapons systems know what to do when the SHTF and that those weapons are not hacked-out at the last minute.  This could be a messy year indeed.  I would not want to be a Ukranian.

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 08:37 | 4668938 negative rates
negative rates's picture

You barely survived.

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 08:40 | 4668954 svayambhu108
svayambhu108's picture

It's called "bearly survived"

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 08:22 | 4668888 Oh regional Indian
Oh regional Indian's picture

As it has always been, energy politics.

Gas, petrol, DIE-sel....

Die-Sell indeed...

ori

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 08:08 | 4668835 NoDebt
NoDebt's picture

"Mr. Ryan, this business will get out of hand.  It will get out of hand and we'll be lucky to live through it."

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 08:34 | 4668919 MeMongo
MeMongo's picture

Yeah It's an abyss alright, as in giant ass crack debacle that Mr Putin will undoubtedly insert his boot into!

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 08:16 | 4668864 fudge
fudge's picture

CIA Director Brennan in Kiev > not a reliable source,interesting twist though..http://www.iarex.ru/articles/47077.html

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 08:01 | 4668806 DavidC
DavidC's picture

ndotken,
Unfortunately, yes.

DavidC

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 07:43 | 4668767 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

imho not that bad. "In short: absolutely no de-escalation from the Russian"

of course not, the peace conference starts today. no negotiatior wants to show up with pre-concessions

I'm mildly optimistic on that conference. the only wild card there is... our dear American Cousins

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 07:59 | 4668802 MrsMerkel
MrsMerkel's picture

Your comments are no fun, Ghordius.

Let us doom-n-gloomers live our fantasies.

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 08:04 | 4668820 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

don't you have enough fantasies about great heroic liberation wars on your continent? we are a bit tired to play the main host for them

Dr. Krugman's Invasion From Mars comes to mind

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 08:15 | 4668859 MrsMerkel
MrsMerkel's picture

I actually meant "us" to mean the average ZH reader.

But now that you mention it...Krugman's scenario sure is mouthwatering.  Just think, all the stimulus! Who needs WW3 when you have aliens

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 08:13 | 4668760 loonyleft
loonyleft's picture

sorry to downvote, but aside from an arguably 'pretty face' Obama has nothing to do with this, and no one is blinking now.

Unfortunately no one blinked in Syria, Libya, Iraq, Afghanistan, and now the Ukraine. The west / deep government / MIC, call it what you like, has a plan and there have been delays, but they are pressing on. 

Obama is just along for the ride. 

 

Nice to see the red/blue sheep are alive and well. I am sure I will be proven wrong once (insert name here) gets in power.  Keep up the downvotes!

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 08:29 | 4668896 ebworthen
ebworthen's picture

If he's just along for the ride he is complicit and not leading; that is something to do with it; not to mention his rhetoric.

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 08:56 | 4669039 loonyleft
loonyleft's picture

That's assuming he can do anything. He can do very little. The US has been taken over by an undisclosed group. Some say neocons, some illuminati. Call it what you like but the POTUS has about as much clout (in this situation) as the Queen does in England. 

The biggest tell was when GW announced he was the 'decision maker'. Is it any more obvious that he was being told what to do? When he had a hissy fit, they convinced him. Obama is smarter, but still mostly helpless.

If anything, Obama rightly backed down on Syria when under immense pressure from inside sources, but they didn't stop, they just went back underground. 

That is about Obama's only power left, that as POTUS, and the idea of the POTUS actually being a leader, if he publicly comes out and says something TPTB have to work with that by still doing what they want but not publicly contradicting the words of the POTUS. If they do then they are more likely to be revealed and the presidency revealed as pretty much just a figurehead. 

And it doesn't matter who is POTUS, left, right, middle, whatever. If McCain were Pres, then the situation would be the same, only maybe a lot quicker, but the plan is not his, not Obama's and not any POTUS. 

Someone else is steering the ship and anybody who continually cries Obama is either a shill or ignorantly muddying the waters. 

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 11:21 | 4669586 813kml
813kml's picture

Good analysis.  Obama is the Commander in Chief, but doesn't have control of the shadow government and other neo-con apparatus.  Neo-cons have the money and reach to set enough fires to get Obama to respond in the way they want.  Indirect power by coercion.  That they have acted so quickly in Ukraine after Syria fizzled shows just how desperate they've become.

Cheney gave a speech in 1999 when he was still CEO of Halliburton that was very prescient.  In it, he detailed the main concern of the 21st century is energy and control of that energy.  Energy control props up the petrodollar and allows American Empire to feed its beast of a military in order to keep the energy secure.

Obama still has the power to diffuse the situation, but I wonder how much propaganda he is being fed by security advisors installed by neo-cons.  He doesn't have many options even if he knows the full story.  The dollar is on course to collapse very soon, only with contrition could this all end peacefully.

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 08:49 | 4668994 TheReplacement
TheReplacement's picture

There is a lot of merit to what you say but I think Obama is more than a puppet.  There are a lot of people who do what the President says.  I believe it was his job to move the ball but was stopped with a loss in Syria.  That doesn't mean that the conspirators behind the scenes are not still pressing "forward" but the face of it was stopped and dropped.

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 09:04 | 4669080 loonyleft
loonyleft's picture

In this world of tech and information, movies and tv, it's hard not to think in absolutes, myself included. 

I am not saying Obama has ZERO power but that the criticisms continually pegging Obama as THE culprit and THE person and THE one, are disingenuous and false. 

Obama is not the problem, just as Bush was not the problem. 

 

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 10:20 | 4669365 HardAssets
HardAssets's picture

I disagree. They were/are both a big part of the problem. They know what they are doing to facilitate things, even though they likely weren't the masterminds.

Their job was/is deception of the American people.

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 07:45 | 4668773 Peter Pan
Peter Pan's picture

Obama needs to paint a red circle around himself.

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 07:53 | 4668792 GetZeeGold
GetZeeGold's picture

 

 

He needs a shirtless photo op holding the skeet gun. Perhaps in mom jeans....haven't decided yet.

 

PULL!

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 08:08 | 4668831 Tengri Temujin
Tengri Temujin's picture

How bout a red circle around his asshole and a red line above his tight briefs

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 07:46 | 4668777 ncdirtdigger
ncdirtdigger's picture

Barry doesn't have time to even start to look Putin in the eyes.

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 08:34 | 4668921 ChanceIs
ChanceIs's picture

How did he do on his final hoops bracket? Anybody know? [/sarc_off]

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 08:40 | 4668953 MeMongo
MeMongo's picture

Actually that giant man/woman Chewbacca bulldagger that motombo is married to would probably give Putin more of a fight!

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 08:11 | 4668852 BandGap
BandGap's picture

The problem Putin has is that he is as predictable as Western leaders. He does hold a lot of cards, but if serious war does break out he is woefully out-gunned. Note that the US/NATO has tested and honed a lot of military strategies and hardware in the past 20 years or so. And peole might not think so, but there is a generation of Europeans, including East Germans, that remember the old USSR quite well. They do not want to see the USSR get together again, much less be beholding to them for their energy requirements. Those old feelings are still there, this won't be a war where people have to work up a lather.

We have the brown clown as president, but the neo-cons runnig the show are much smarter. At least they think so, that's the problem too.

God save us.

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 08:49 | 4668997 JailBank
JailBank's picture

That may be true, but does the US have the stomach for another war? How many more parents are going to want their kids joining up to run off and defend another nation. Those that are willing to go are fewer, and eventually, I am aghast to say it, some hipsters and rich kids might have to.... take up the fight.

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 08:55 | 4669029 Tengri Temujin
Tengri Temujin's picture

Big deal on nato conventional ability, russians have said they will go tactical nukes and more due to disparity

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 09:46 | 4669225 FMR Bankster
FMR Bankster's picture

There's a huge problem with distance and logistics. And it's an issue both for Russia and NATO. All military organizations are much smaller than they were during the cold war. We spend a ton on wiz bang military technology but it's of limited value in a conflict of this sort. The truth is in the short run (6 months) we can't deploy significant power to Ukraine even if we wanted to. Russia is closer, so the problems are smaller, but it's military would have real trouble (not with Ukraine's military)if the citizens were uncooperative.

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 10:33 | 4669420 813kml
813kml's picture

The US public has never been involved in the decision-making process of declaring war, it really doesn't matter what they think as long as they don't try to storm the Pentagon.  And probably not even then.

Enough consent can be built with relentless propaganda (already happening) and possibly a false flag or two.  Hipsters won't need to take up the fight, if things get hot the fight will be over before they can look up from their iPhones.

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 09:07 | 4669086 BlindMonkey
BlindMonkey's picture

The biggest thing is the challenge to NATO's air superiority.  They may be on the losing side of that as Russsia's anti-air is considered to be the best in the world.  The entire premise of NATO's power is combined arms and I doubt they would be very aggressive if they don't have air power to back the ground forces up.

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 19:29 | 4671288 StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture

Here in the US, Fire and Police depts have difficulty communicating during a perceived emergency, what are they compared to NATOs communication problems?  NATO countries hardly even speak the same language!  The phrase "clusterfsck" springs to mind...

 

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 09:28 | 4669159 Snidley Whipsnae
Snidley Whipsnae's picture

"We have the brown clown as president, but the neo-cons runnig the show are much smarter. At least they think so, that's the problem too."

If the neo cons were really smart they would not have laid all their plans out in the PNAC (project for a new American century) while Bush 2 was pres... Unless they were trying to set in stone their policy for incoming administrations... not likely this ploy would succeed imo.

Perhaps Ukraine is totally about dollar hegemony (attempting to keep the dollar as the major world reserve currency). I mean totally to the exclusion of all other reasons. Why else would Western Europe let themselves be dragged along so easily, risking so much?

Iows, why is Western Europe risking Sooo much... their energy from Russia, if not in support of the dollar?

Now Belgium is the largest purchaser of US treasuries. Who else is buying US paper in quantity? Belgium, a country with a $450Billion economy holding about $350Billion of US paper... seem strange to you?

Putin is still holding the 'excepting dollars, Russia will take any major currency or gold for Russian energy' card. Will he play that card?

Will China throw it's hat into this mess since they are in the SCO along with Russia?

We have seen what happened to Iraq, Lybia and Iran when they moved away from dollars for energy. 

I know, I have a lot more questions than answers... It seems to me that a very large piece of this puzzle is missing... as usual.

Any logical answers, even illogical speculation, will be appreciated.

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 19:30 | 4671300 StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture

Let's see which way KSA jumps, now that Bandar is "retired."

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 09:42 | 4669201 Thanatos
Thanatos's picture

You make a good case about the doctrine of Russia and NATO, but I'm pretty sure these doctrines won't hold up under the realities of an actual war.

I'm not convinced about the reality of Russia being out gunned.

If you are talking about the NATO vendors fantasy display booths at Eurosatory, then yes we appear to outgun and somewhat out tech the Russians.

If you are speaking about fieldable equipment and manpower coupled with a social fabric that is willing to suffer to defeat an enemy... Well it doesn't look so good for NATO.

It's a long logistics train from here to there and we have hollowed out our capability by erosion, attrition and reliance on contractors over the past 20+ years. The Russian MIC is on a serious upswing and has a distributed depth of capability and surge capacity that doesn't have an analog in the west.

NATO looks good on paper. But it may be nothing more than a paper birdcage floor liner when "shit gets real".

Let's agree that we don't want to find out.

 

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 11:19 | 4669572 sushi
sushi's picture

Plus US doctrine has been shaped by more then 10 years of conflict with sheepherders, battles that they lost.

All of the US / NATO interventions have been against foes who were unable to mount an adequate defence. 

All of the US / NATO interventions involved a logistics tail that was so huge it included air conditioned tents and ice cream machines in fOBs. That was not warfighting. That was squatting on the taxpayers dime.

US / NATO is playing at conflict. They wish to expand their borders, provide a larger buffer, extend commercial hegemony.

Russia on the other hand is facing an existential threat posed by a group of nations seeking to undermine and eviscerate it depsite all of the bland portestations of "friendship."

The fundamental issue here is that US / NATO is playing with fire and Russia is playing for keeps.

We end up having to live in the rubble left by the "draw a red line and send a nastygram" idiots in power.

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 09:03 | 4669072 BlindMonkey
BlindMonkey's picture

"OK, when it comes down to it, who is going to blink first..."

 

You are incorrectly assuming that Obama is watching in the first place.  He has people for that level of detail.  He has vacations to plan.

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 07:36 | 4668749 usikpa
usikpa's picture

with a heavy hint that either the East and South would soon be part of Russia, or that the second coming of the USSR is in the cards, ---WHERE THE HELL DID THAT COME FROM? THE WHITE HOUSE?


Thu, 04/17/2014 - 07:54 | 4668793 SpanishGoop
SpanishGoop's picture

Could be from Brussels because then thay can indebt and enslave another poor country and rule an even bigger Europe.

 

 

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 09:43 | 4669211 Snidley Whipsnae
Snidley Whipsnae's picture

usikpa... Also, how and when did Transnistria become 'blockaded'? If you look at the Wiki map link below transnistria is land locked except for 2 rivers. 

In addition at Wiki there is this comment...

"When crossing the border between Moldova and Transnistria, you will be checked only by Transnistrian officials. There are also peacekeeping Russian and Ukrainian soldiers who may stop and search vehicles"

http://wikitravel.org/en/Transnistria

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 09:57 | 4669281 Tengri Temujin
Tengri Temujin's picture

I also thought the Dniester was an international waterway and they could sail down it to get to the Black sea so its strange that they are blockaded when they have the river access and should be able to get supplied by barges from Black Sea via Crimea now.

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 10:44 | 4669459 Snidley Whipsnae
Snidley Whipsnae's picture

Tengri... My thoughts exactly... unless Putin meant that the rivers are blockaded? Maybe river patrols? Border crossing roads blocked?

Very confusing but the whole thing is, so far, reminding me of the old film "The Russians are coming, The Russians are coming"... with Alan Alda...

More civilians have probably been killed in traffic accidents or cleaning their new AKs than by intentional shooting... so far. Hope it remains a comedy.

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 07:39 | 4668750 y3maxx
y3maxx's picture

Obama is a useless Leader, Puppet, Hoax

Obama is a fine Leader and Golfer

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 07:42 | 4668761 Peter Pan
Peter Pan's picture

How about a one on one debate between Obama and Putin only. No teleprompters allowed.

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 08:24 | 4668899 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

first body count and no comment on the Hedge. "all those poor Ukrainians and now they're pulling the trigger."

Not even a mention of the Dead Russians.

Putin, Obama, Zero Hedge...you all deserve this war. "My God, how did we get from the watching of the Dead to being the Dead?"

It must be the love of history...that too much of it is never enough. "Bruce Springstein and the Glory Days" here we come.

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 08:39 | 4668946 negative rates
negative rates's picture

You need to listen to some greatful dead.

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 19:37 | 4671337 StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture

"...I know the rent is in arrears,

The dog has not been fed in years, but it's alright..." -- Grateful Dead, "Touch of Grey"

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 08:53 | 4669019 TheReplacement
TheReplacement's picture

Please link to anything written by a Tyler that has called for escalation or war.  Until then, -1.

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 08:36 | 4668933 ChanceIs
ChanceIs's picture

Haven' you ever heard of a useless idiot? I think Stalin - might have been Lenin or Marx - coined the term.

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 07:38 | 4668753 negative rates
negative rates's picture

Financial consequences bitches.

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 07:47 | 4668779 Peter Pan
Peter Pan's picture

Putin just has to bite the bullet and announce that he is in the market to buy gold using his US treasuries.

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 08:15 | 4668860 negative rates
negative rates's picture

All along the watch tower.

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 08:54 | 4669024 TheReplacement
TheReplacement's picture

Oblamer is the useful idiot.  The question is who will be the one (in his inner circle) who will depose him?

 

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 07:40 | 4668755 SpanishGoop
SpanishGoop's picture

In short "pay up you stupid Europeans" and "get the f* out of this region NATO".

 

 

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 07:40 | 4668756 lakecity55
lakecity55's picture

Great response, however, I get nervous if either side uses the term "empire." We do not know if that was a direct translation.

At this point, I do not think Vlad wants an "empire;" he will protect Russians in the east and south.

Better to set up a federal system with autonomy for each "state."

NATO is acting on old cold-war reflexes. Get over it, Brussels.

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 08:12 | 4668790 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

the word "empire" has different connotations in different continents

the Holy Roman Empire, for example, was for most of it's history very, very decentralized, for example. support for the Emperor was often support for local autonomy vs local hegemons. see for example the history of the Imperial Cities of the HRE and their dealings with neighboring Robber Barons

for the Russian on the street, the Russian Empire... is old glory, mostly. Communists banked so long on it's evils to the point that they are... irrelevant, nowadays

note that Brits, for example our ZH friend smacker, are sometimes quite happy remembering when Britannia Ruled The Waves

in many languages, empire means mostly "out of many nations", or "out of many tribes/polities"

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 08:41 | 4668955 negative rates
negative rates's picture

The holy roman empire was neither holy, nor Roman, nor an empire. SNL.

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 08:00 | 4668805 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

"Get over it, Brussels" - it's not Brussels, it's Washington, London, Paris, Berlin, Warsaw, Kiew, Moscow, etc.

over what? soldiers with Russian flags yet no insignia in territories and countries which were part of solemn treaties? It's not a game

get over this idea that there are white and black hats involved. this ain't a Cowboy Flick

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 08:21 | 4668879 BandGap
BandGap's picture

I agree, this is a very complicated scenario. Funny how "rational" and "intelligent" people can have their arguments/rationale pushed aside by egos and history. It's not like Europe hasn't seen this act before.

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 08:56 | 4669037 TheReplacement
TheReplacement's picture

We should have little doubt that Putin will bite off anything he can chew.  The scary part is that he is self aware and such a good judge of meat that he won't make the mistake of biting off so much that he chokes.

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 07:42 | 4668759 smacker
smacker's picture

In big picture terms, we are seeing the same tactics being played out by the West when it created the Cold War.

The huge difference today is that Russia has a lot of useful friends in the world. The West doesn't.

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 08:02 | 4668809 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

is your "West" the US and the UK or does it include us continentals? just asking ;-)

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 08:34 | 4668918 smacker
smacker's picture

The West's foreign policy is heavily dominated by the US and UK, so I really mean those countries. But any country that toes their line is also losing friends. Brussels has mostly kept its nose out of geo-politics until Ukraine. If it continues peddling NATO up to the borders of Russia, it will also lose more friends.

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 08:45 | 4668975 dontgoforit
dontgoforit's picture

Unfortunately, you are probably right which is too bad since the average schmo here is the same as the average schmo there.  It's only the brinkmanship of the elite egos and the weakness of some leaders  that bring us to his slaugherhouse 5 over and over again.  Too bad.  When given the chance the schmoes generally help each other, not kill each other.

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 07:42 | 4668762 wmbz
wmbz's picture

Just in... Obozo issues another warning! Out the mouth of a clown, into the ear of a bear.

Check the bear shit latter for the remains of red shoes and a red nose.

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 07:44 | 4668772 ncdirtdigger
ncdirtdigger's picture

No Gas for You!

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 07:45 | 4668774 Leboob
Leboob's picture

Long on US energy companies. We will gladly fill the nat gas void in Europe when we soon turn our LNG import facilities into export facilities. OBAMA's hand will be forced to approve the Keystone pipeline deal and Al Gore will be able to continue fueling his G5 at a reasonable rate. Thank you Vlad for directing our hapless leaders down the correct path.

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 07:50 | 4668785 SpanishGoop
SpanishGoop's picture

That will go well if you have to pay through the teeth for your energy in order to save Europe from freezing.

 

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 08:53 | 4669020 JailBank
JailBank's picture

How long do you think that is going to take to get up and running?

 

1. How much natural gas is the United States currently extracting?

(a) Barely enough to meet its own needs
(b) Enough to allow lots of exports
(c) Enough to allow a bit of exports
(d) The United States is a natural gas importer

 

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-04-01/guest-post-absurdity-us-natural...

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 07:50 | 4668784 Winston Churchill
Winston Churchill's picture

Seems there is a lot more to the Su24 buzzing the USS Cook the other day.

Looks like Russia has brand new elctronic counter measures.

After the first pass by the Su 24 ALL fire controrol systems failed.

Aegis, CIW, everything went down ,according to some crew members  who resigned at the first port of

call.

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 07:56 | 4668797 loonyleft
loonyleft's picture

link or BS. 

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 08:05 | 4668826 Winston Churchill
Winston Churchill's picture

I'm trying to find the direct link.

Someboby posted a verbatim news agency report over at Sakar., without linking.

I've asked for the link, still waiting.

It may be BS, not like the USN would admit it anyways,or the Russians either..

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 08:19 | 4668871 loonyleft
loonyleft's picture

would be very interesting if so, but it sounds too contrived. i doubt indoctrinated military would just get up and leave after that. 

Even if the US didn't have a countermeasure, they would say they did. The soldiers would believe it. 

The undefeatable myth of the US military runs very deep in most Americans, especially the active military. The idea of soldiers resigning immediately doesn't ring true.

 

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 08:59 | 4669054 Buckaroo Banzai
Buckaroo Banzai's picture

"Aegis, CIW, everything went down ,according to some crew members who resigned at the first port of call."

Bullshit. Enlisted can't "resign" and officers would never be allowed to under circumstances like that.

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 09:24 | 4669138 Aussiekiwi
Aussiekiwi's picture

Yep, you can post that one up next to the fake moon landings.

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 09:57 | 4669285 gcjohns1971
gcjohns1971's picture

Actually, that's true.

Enlistment is a contract.   They can't resign until the contract is up.  Then they just don't re-enlist.

Officers are selected over a long period of training that includes many assessments.  No one would resign because a system went down.

 

This news snippet is just Russian Propaganda.

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 16:33 | 4670805 Snidley Whipsnae
Snidley Whipsnae's picture

" They can't resign until the contract is up.  Then they just don't re-enlist."

Enlisted can be 'extended' whether they want to be or not... and then they can be re-extended, etc.

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 09:54 | 4669263 gcjohns1971
gcjohns1971's picture

You are right. It is too contrived.  And it is chock full of propaganda themes.

US Sailors resign because their system failed?  Are they kidding? Systems fail all the time. It is called defense contracting.  These systems are built by the lowest bidder!

 

The propaganda themes are:

-Russia has super weapons and the US will be helpless against them.

- US military are cowardly bullies, and also mercenaries.  They will run at the first sign of trouble, and resign in fear and awe at Russian military and technical prowess.

 

I hope Russians don't buy into these themes.  The Russian Army has some very good units.  But most of the troops are two-year conscripts, who may be brave, but usually are not very dedicated, and who are not highly skilled as soldiers. 

The US Army has a lot of problems too, but it is foolish to imagine Russia can handle them with ease.  Imagining the US as militarily weak is crazy talk.

 

What scares me is that this is the kind of propaganda countries usually use when they intend to invade someone and want the public fears to be calmed. 

Just look at the US's Iraq war for an example, "Shock and Awe", "A cake walk", "72-hour War".  This propaganda was the same as what we are hearing from Russia now.

I don't believe what I see in the Western Media about Putin wanting USSR 2.0.  

It is Russia's own propaganda themes that scare me.  They sound more to me like the "I'm gonna invade some neighbors" kind of propaganda rather than the "Respect me, and treat my people well" kind of propaganda.

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 10:01 | 4669293 Latina Lover
Latina Lover's picture

The Russians are too smart to buy into their own propaganda. They will not fight americans unless invaded, and then they will fight with insane courage. The same is true for the american soldier, who has never really been tested since there is no recent war that america has fought that seriously threatened the homeland.

 

I also think the article is BS, and is likely crap written by a drunk russian blogger.

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 07:58 | 4668800 SpanishGoop
SpanishGoop's picture

Would not be suprised.

America always has to show of (or get caught) on everytning they are able to do, Russia not so.

 

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 07:51 | 4668786 Hannibal
Hannibal's picture

I can't believe  I am rooting for the Ruskies.

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 08:09 | 4668843 IridiumRebel
IridiumRebel's picture

i'm rooting for everyone to backoff and let the people decide as in Crimea....

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 09:21 | 4669130 Aussiekiwi
Aussiekiwi's picture

It does not work like that, referendums are only binding if the people come to the right decision, otherwise they are invalid.....where have you been?

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 08:23 | 4668892 BandGap
BandGap's picture

Don't cheer either side. Different shades of evil.

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 08:48 | 4668988 Aussie V
Aussie V's picture

If you're like me, you're just not rooting for the lying, manipultive, bastard, fascist destroyer of  worlds.

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 08:55 | 4669030 JailBank
JailBank's picture

Not rooting for the Ruskies. I am however rooting for these A-holes with nothing to lose to back down before getting more people killed because they got their wittle fweeling hurt.

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 08:02 | 4668812 Rising Sun
Rising Sun's picture

Barry needs to stop painting red lines and paint a big yellow line down his back.

 

You're a fucking pussy Barry.

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 08:38 | 4668941 skepsis101
skepsis101's picture

RS

Let's hope so!

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 08:49 | 4668996 dontgoforit
dontgoforit's picture

He may be a wuss, but the U.S. warriors are not.  Hopefully we won't have to see that proven yet again. 

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 08:08 | 4668817 IridiumRebel
IridiumRebel's picture

A hearty good morning to all of the "I have been here for weeks and financed by the Deep State" trolls. See you on the threads...

 

This place crawls.

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 08:09 | 4668841 Maxter
Maxter's picture

I like that he is telling the things the way they are.

NATO moving closer = we must respond.  Weither we agree with this view or not doesn't matter, at least the Russian citizen can discuss the view among themself and come to an honest conclusion about what they want their country to do.

 

Imagine if NATO was saying: "We have decided to encircle Russia with Nato countries to make sure that they never expand to mush like they did in the past".  Or "we dediced that it was in our interest to install a missle shield at Russia's doorstep to try and counter they nuclear arsenal". Instead they say the shield is made to counter Iran (no less!)

Would'nt that be great? There could be honest debate among people about those view.  Hell, the governement might even have some support from a part of the population.

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 08:33 | 4668916 medium giraffe
medium giraffe's picture

Or maybe they could just start doing things by consent of the people who pay their wages.  And if they can't, maybe we should throw them off a cliff and install someone who will act by consent.   Perhaps that's the only way left to stop a war.

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 08:35 | 4668924 navy62802
navy62802's picture

The problem is that those decisions are not made by the elected, visible element of government. They are made by the unseen and unelected elements within government.

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 09:37 | 4669190 gcjohns1971
gcjohns1971's picture

Encircle with NATO Countries?

You mean someone is going around Europe and replacing the populations and governments of countries body-snatcher style?

Or do you mean that a former ally  to Russia, will become more hostile to Russia after it joins a mutual-defense pact with other countries?

Look at how Russians talk about Georgia, Turkmenistan, and Ukraine!  They talk about them like they were provinces who must do exactly as they are told!  Yet they imagine the Soviet Union was a UNION not a conquered empire.

And they imagine that Europe is similarly under the control of the US  via NATO. 

So...

Let's hear it Europeans!   Is that true?

Is YOUR Country's relationship to the US one where the US dictates how you will live, and NATO is as much a threat to your independence as a defense against aggression?

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 08:25 | 4668900 ebworthen
ebworthen's picture

Translation:  "Russia will not be cowed by neo-Nazi's or Western Imperialists."

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 08:26 | 4668901 muleskinner
muleskinner's picture

El Guapo has a plethora of pinatas.

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 08:35 | 4668925 SpanishGoop
SpanishGoop's picture

Just found this on a Dutch newssite....

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4510688,00.html

Not sure wtf.

 

 

 

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 10:04 | 4669304 Latina Lover
Latina Lover's picture

Just lies created by  the Kiev government to discredit Donestsk

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 08:36 | 4668931 Tracerfan
Tracerfan's picture

Putin took and answered questions from Russian citizens for 4 hours.

Our empty suit takes a half hour of pre-selected questions.

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 09:04 | 4669076 Canucklehead
Canucklehead's picture

Putin has set a high benchmark for other democracies to meet.

I'm sure most of the questions were scripted, just like they operate in the US. That being said, let's hope this becomes a new way of democratic engagement in the free world. You will see less of the BLM bullshit, or Special Forces guarding banks.

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 09:26 | 4669121 NuYawkFrankie
NuYawkFrankie's picture

re Our empty suit takes a half hour of pre-selected questions

And has to be fed the answers off a teleprompter

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 10:54 | 4669445 813kml
813kml's picture

Obama is barely competent enough to be a game show host.

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 09:05 | 4668963 intric8
intric8's picture

This is double plus good! the ministry of love has assured us of the goodthinkful necessary nature of this operation, under its oversight, for the spreading of love! your thoughts are crimethink. many of you with ownlives.. your wrongful, rueful solitary actions against the ministry compel me to make a necessary and speedful report. i must. this place is rife with ungood duckspeak, i must!

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 08:55 | 4668998 John Wilmot
John Wilmot's picture

This talk of a "new USSR" misses the mark IMO.

People have short memories, Russia is far older than the USSR.

The USSR was an aberration, a relatively brief interruption in the life of a civilization.

Putin and Russia are just getting back to normality.

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 09:01 | 4669065 Canucklehead
Canucklehead's picture

This is a very smart move on Putin's part. There has been no de-escalation to Obama's threats. There are two sides to this coin.

The other side to this coin is that Putin envisions a diplomatic way forward where Ukraine can keep it's country intact, subject to conditions. Obviously, Putin has been talking and it hasn't been to Obama. I see vapor trails of a diplomatic path between Russia and Germany.

I suspect Putin will accept the results of the May election. He probably knows the Eastern part of the Ukraine will support closer ties to Russia. The Western part of the Ukraine will likely support closer ties to Europe. When this all started, the Russian position was that the May election was invalid. I see movement here.

It is reasonable to expect back channels in play between Putin and some authority in the West. It is reasonable to expect that Western Authority to be the Germans.

Let's see how the May election plays out. I'm curious if Putin has put the word out to the Pro-Russian separatists to cool it for now and win the election?

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 09:29 | 4669170 gcjohns1971
gcjohns1971's picture

Germany doesn't give a crap about Ukraine.

Germany just wants the energy already.  Germany doesn't want to be making diesel, gasoline, and heating oil from coal.

Germany wanted it from Turkmenistan via the BAKU pipeline which terminates in Abkhasia Georgia.  Russia blocked, and invaded the region where the terminal is located (Abkhasia) and where the other major pumping and handling stations are located (South Ossetia).

Germany wanted energy from Africa through Libya, Algeria, and Tunisia.  Russia's allies would accept no price.  Sorry Europe! Sorry Germany!

Germany wanted energy from the Gulf, and the Gulf wants to sell it, But Russia's friends in Syria would not allow a tiny 100-mile stretch to go through Syria.

If you keep standing between a man and his food - or a country and its energy - there's going to be a fight.  The US has been fomenting these revolutions, and using diplomatic power, to try and prevent a clash between elephants. 

But the idiots who never left the 20th Century, who can't envision that the Soviet Union is gone, who can't imagine that the West is a coalition not a block, just don't get it.

Putin, sometimes it is not all about you.

 

I'll miss you Europe.  You were a beautiful place, filled with culture, history and brilliant people.

I'll miss you Russia.  You were a wonderful place filled with beautiful women, Kvas, Baltika 7, and some of the best engineers on the planet.

But where you are heading... it will be very sad to see it all become melted glass.

 

However, there will be benefits to me in the US:

- The dollar will collapse discrediting the Keynsian bankers.

- The police state, welfare state, and warfare state will prove impossible to fund.

- All the troops will be able to come home.

 

Hopefully China won't treat us too badly after they wipe out Japan.

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 09:49 | 4669235 Canucklehead
Canucklehead's picture

I think you need to realize that even the Ukrainians don't give a crap about their country. This song and dance the world is going through is to give time to Ukrainians to get their heads on straight and chart a responsible course of action out of the mess they perpetually find themselves in.

The Ukrainians need to plan for the future, not constantly sabotage each other and play the blame game.

I realize the obvious song to play is a lament. That is the specialty of Johnny Onions and the Liver Eaters.

Give your head a shake if you don't think these actions are being coreographed. One Dutch F-16 is going to save the world? One tank is going to scare the people of a town into submission? Sitting on TV for 4 hours will change the world?

Elections are scheduled for May. Don't screw things up.

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 09:04 | 4669077 gcjohns1971
gcjohns1971's picture

For 70 years since the end of WWII Russia, and the rest of Europe had their confrontations and disagreements just as in the past.

For 70 years since the end of WWII Russia - for the very first time EVER - was NOT INVADED.  

Russia has NEVER BEFORE GONE 70 YEARS WITHOUT AN INVASION.

"Barry and the Banksters"  (sounds like the name of a band - no?) have a lot to answer for, they are not good men.  This is not a serious topic of discussion.  We know they are bad men and how they are bad men.

Whether Putin is popular in Russia is irrelevant.  Stalin was popular in Russia and he was one of the worst human beings who ever existed.

Meetings continue in Brussels on EU direct tax authority, and whether to establish a common Army.

Amongst the supporters of the EU there is a very great resentment towards Americans - who are seen as primitive and uncultured comparted to the old country - taking the lead in Geopolitics. 

There is no prize in the Ukraine for the US to win.  There is something for the EU to gain. 

If the US cannot resolve the Ukraine matter to Europe's satisfaction, then NATO is finished and the US and Europe will change their relative relationships.

My money is that should these energy contests not be resolved in a way that satisfies Europe, the plan for an EU Army will go forwards.  

The UK rightly sees this as a threat.  A powerful, united and armed continent has never been good for Britain, whose island is only a short sea crossing away.

 

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 09:08 | 4669091 gcjohns1971
gcjohns1971's picture

Shortly:

Europe wants energy.

Russia wants monopoly, and has a leader who is mentally stuck in the past.

US wants to stay at the head of the table.

UK wants not to be the only goose in a flock of ducks.

 

That is why all this is happening.

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 10:21 | 4669341 NuYawkFrankie
NuYawkFrankie's picture

re A powerful, united and armed continent has never been good for Britain, whose island is only a short sea crossing away.

 

The UK (or what's left of it after Scotland goes Bye Bye!) has -in collusion with USSA - been instrumental - via its half-wit politicians - in instigating the crisis in Ukraine and the very circumstances that now cause you so much angst.

Best save your tears - and faux Chrchillian rhetoric - for someone who actually cares.

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 09:09 | 4669088 esum
esum's picture

if ukraine were important to the ussa, would it not have given missle defense and weapons before this issue developed... so far we have sent 25000 MRE's and a few hundred mercenaries... swell... that sends a strong message... Now a few jets... so what... its happening on the ground... obama is telling putin to stop so he can impose soviet style justice on amerika, commrade...before i leave office.. remember my flex plea... it still holds. putin will reach thru obama's rib cage, extract and eat his heart...looking him right in the eye.... tastes like chickenshit...jiveass community organizer... 

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 09:21 | 4669125 Kina
Kina's picture

Unfortunately... a tactical nuclear missile would silence US anti-missile 'defense'

 

Dont think Putin would threaten to use one?

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 10:23 | 4669386 Urban Redneck
Urban Redneck's picture

He doesn't need to and wouldn't (directly) threaten to use a nuke.  Simply withdrawing from certain treaties regarding nuclear missile constraints achieves the same far more diplomatically, and any signatory country to such a treaty is free to do so (withdraw) at any time.  The short range hypersonic nukes Russia has in Kaliningrad right now have a suspected/unofficial range that just reaches Berlin (which he has no interest in threatening).  Unfortunately, Barry and his merry band of imbeciles haven demonstrated the normal level of fluency in diplo-doublespeak (perhaps there's an NWO overlord backed affirmative action program they didn't bother to announce).

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 09:22 | 4669133 Kina
Kina's picture

US wants to stay at the head of the table.

 

US wants to rule all of the world..and wants Russia and China out of the game.

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 10:53 | 4669493 813kml
813kml's picture

You hit the nail on the head, that's why all of this is the Cuban Missile Crisis x 1000.  ICBMs weren't part of the equation back then.

Everything has come to a head.  Russia and China can't afford to wait anymore and let the US continue to encircle and build more military with its worthless dollars.  The US can't afford to wait because the world is about to find out just how worthless the dollar is.

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 09:25 | 4669145 yrbmegr
yrbmegr's picture

Civil war has begun in eastern Ukraine.

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 09:31 | 4669174 sondernauch
sondernauch's picture

"the former KGB spy" Gotta love the MSM. They can't write or think very well, but they are masters at the smear. They never describe one of their own fellow travellers as "a former Marxist."

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 09:52 | 4669254 smacker
smacker's picture

Agreed. The Ukraine mess has been a stark example of how corrupt and statist Western MSM really is. The way they twist, distort, misreport and selectively report news on their "news shows" is more sophisticated than Goebbels.

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 09:55 | 4669269 Joe A
Joe A's picture

"When two tribes go to war one is all that you can score"

NATO's moves are mirrored by Russia. What could possibly go wrong?

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 10:07 | 4669305 Kina
Kina's picture

The USA is the one at risk here. BRICS don't have to be ultra powerful to make life a misery for the USA (Europe).

That hotspot that the US has been fomenting continual wars and regeim changes...the middle east...has left itself vulnerable right at its softes point...middle east oil.

Makes no difference to Russia if the middle east gets fucked up, in fact increase in oil prices helps it even more.

People ought to understand the global context before thinking Russia and friends hold the weaker and losing hand.

If US either directly or through its proxies make enough of a problem for Russia that they need to get desperate they will hit the US with highest value score...the middle easts oil...ie Saudi Arabia.

Just watch how quickly the US economy dives into the abyss in such an event.

Also those who think that the USA has the ability to thwart Russia when Russia and China have no intention to allow this....and the US in its arrogance goes one steop too far....well remember China and Russia have enough nuclear warheads to wipeout the USA and Europe a hundred times over...they lose too...all loses...but the US will be gone forever in such a scenario. And the hubris of oligarchs in the USA/Europe know no limits.

 

Say they assasinate Putin.....refer back to WW1

 

And if the USA/NATO get into a ground/air continuing conflict with Russia..then expect them to open up a few other fronts more sensitive to the USA.  Problem for the US is that Russia isn't some tin pot middle east country.

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 10:12 | 4669343 Kina
Kina's picture

What scares me is that this is the kind of propaganda countries usually use when they intend to invade someone and want the public fears to be calmed.

 

I think all that you have said relates perfectly to the USA not Russia. And it is scary that the US believes its own propaganda and wants to make Russia look the evil guy in this little game they are playing to thwart Russia from the global stage. The hubris of US will be the thing that creates global chaos. And I can bet they will underestimate the will of the BRICS to be free of US control.

 

 

Thu, 04/17/2014 - 16:13 | 4670731 kurt
kurt's picture

The most civilized, in the western sense, arab countries were first. Now they want the two whitest peoples to kill each other. The people fronting this madness somehow can't get it in their heads: the world you want won't exist after you succeed. That world looks fun on film only. Think about it. There are not enough elderly japanese homeless to clean up Fukushima let alone the entire world. Eventually, you, yes you insider-boy will be losing bloody teeth in the sink as you pull out handfulls of hair. 

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