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The Next Shoe Just Dropped: Court Denies Attorney-Client Privilege

Tyler Durden's picture




 

Submitted by Simon Black via Sovereign Man blog,

In the Land of the Free, people grow up hearing a lot of things about their freedom.

You're told that you live in the freest country on the planet. You're told that other nations 'hate you' for your freedom.

And you're told that you have the most open and fair justice system in the world.

This justice system is supposedly founded on bedrock principles-- things like a defendant being presumed innocent until proven guilty. The right to due process and an impartial hearing. The right to counsel and attorney-client privilege.

Yet each of these core pillars has been systematically dismantled over the years:

1. So that it can operate with impunity outside of the law, the federal government has set up its own secret FISA courts to rubber stamp NSA surveillance.

According to data obtained by the Electronic Privacy Information Center, of the nearly 34,000 surveillance requests made to FISA courts in the last 35-years, only ELEVEN have been rejected.

Unsurprising given that FISA courts only hear the case from the government's perspective. It is literally a one-sided argument in FISA courts. Hardly an impartial hearing, no?

2. The concept of 'innocent until proven guilty' may officially exist in courts, but administratively it was thrown out long ago.

These days there are hundreds of local, state, and federal agencies that can confiscate your assets, levy your bank account, and freeze you out of your life's savings. None of this requires a court order.

By the time a case goes to court, you have been deprived of the resources you need to defend yourself. You might technically be presumed innocent, but you have been treated and punished like a criminal from day one.

3. Attorney-Client privilege is a long-standing legal concept which ensures that communication between an attorney and his/her client is completely private.

In Upjohn vs. the United States, the Supreme Court itself upheld attorney-client privilege as necessary "to encourage full and frank communication between attorneys and their clients and thereby promote broader public interests in the observance of law. . ."

It doesn't matter what you're accused of-- theft. treason. triple homicide. With very limited exceptions, an attorney cannot be compelled to testify against a client, nor can their communications be subpoenaed for evidence.

Yet in a United States Tax Court decision announced on Wednesday, the court dismissed attorney client privilege, stating that:

"When a person puts into issue his subjective intent in deciding how to comply with the law, he may forfeit the privilege afforded attorney-client communications."

In other words, if a person works with legal counsel within the confines of the tax code to legitimately minimize the amount of taxes owed, that communication is no longer protected by attorney-client privilege.

Furthermore, the ruling states that if the individuals do not submit attorney-client documentation as required, then the court would prohibit them from introducing any evidence to demonstrate their innocence.

Unbelievable.

While it's true that attorney-client privilege has long been assailed in numerous court cases (especially with regards to tax matters), this decision sets the most dangerous precedent yet.

With this ruling, government now has carte blanche to set aside long-standing legal protections and even deny a human being even the chance to defend himself.

Naturally, you won't hear a word about this in the mainstream media.

But it certainly begs the question, what's the point of even having a trial? Or a constitution?

When every right and protection you have can be disregarded in their sole discretion, one really has to wonder how anyone can call it a 'free country' any more.

 

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Sat, 04/19/2014 - 10:18 | 4675328 Rising Sun
Rising Sun's picture

It's all about money - your money and how the dogshit goobermint can take more beyond taxation.

 

Hopey Changey Barry strikes again - get rid of this turd!!!!!!!!!!

Sat, 04/19/2014 - 10:22 | 4675343 Rusty Shorts
Rusty Shorts's picture
Feds Seizing Tax Refunds

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gXidf4lS0E

Sat, 04/19/2014 - 10:37 | 4675375 Oh regional Indian
Oh regional Indian's picture

It's about en-forcing the code, isn't it? Tax code. Penal Code.

Code's are voluntaryly embraced, Code of Honour, Code of Con-duct etc. 

What about the word Code? Codes are hidden, secret, scrambled...

Any wonder the gobbledygook makes no sense? Legal-unease...

The Deep Perversion Of Language

ori

 

Sat, 04/19/2014 - 10:43 | 4675386 max2205
max2205's picture

Moar Prisions! 

Sat, 04/19/2014 - 10:57 | 4675417 gmrpeabody
gmrpeabody's picture

All you are belong to us...

Sat, 04/19/2014 - 11:00 | 4675421 SWRichmond
SWRichmond's picture

malum in se

vs

malum prohibitum

Natural Law is something everyone can understand and comply with easily.  That is why it is so feared by the establishment.

Sat, 04/19/2014 - 13:27 | 4675719 Anusocracy
Anusocracy's picture

All governments are scams and cons.

Match that with the fact that most people are dupes and fools and you have the basis of the modern world.

Sat, 04/19/2014 - 14:54 | 4675817 Manthong
Manthong's picture

According to a play in 1623, Henry the Sixth had an idea about that problem.

But a Constitution crafted and signed off on in 1787 was intended to make that not such a good idea.  

It may be time to reconsider the concept now as the principles of that document have pretty much been shit-canned by politicians (who most all just happen to be attorneys).  

..and BTW, so are the judges (who most all just happen to be attorneys but are really politicians).

If indeed, a Dick's comment comes back into popular recourse, fasten your seat belt and put your tray tables into the upright and locked position.

 

Sun, 04/20/2014 - 04:09 | 4676762 Manthong
Manthong's picture

good to know that few folks got it.

..bad to know that most did not..

Sun, 04/20/2014 - 18:44 | 4678090 Drifter
Drifter's picture

Did Mark Levin buy Zerohedge? Or Alex Jones?

Sun, 04/20/2014 - 20:04 | 4678249 Never One Roach
Never One Roach's picture

Not'n like a nice hang'n ... after a Fair trial, of course.

Sun, 04/20/2014 - 22:32 | 4678518 Drifter
Drifter's picture

Please spare us the fake patriot crap, us sane rational people are getting pretty tired of hearing it, especially on a damn financial blog.

Mon, 04/21/2014 - 02:36 | 4678766 Boris Alatovkrap
Boris Alatovkrap's picture

In Russia, tax agency is collect tax, in Amerika, they are collect YOU. 

Sun, 04/20/2014 - 20:10 | 4678259 Milestones
Milestones's picture

The ORIGINAL 13th amendment which was introduced in 1809 and ratified 1819 has been trashed and swept under the rug.Those of us involved in "The People's" COMMOIN LAW GRAND JURY, which ios now very close to be operational nation wide, is finding some not so subtle but important changes in some of the Supreme's decisions from the original text including Marbury v Madison, one of the most important decision made in 1803. It's called forgery!!

The 14th amendmewnt was illegal from the get go and was never legally ratified on several different levels. As regards the 13th (ORIGINAL) would have banned attorneys from serving in the government at the risk of losing citizenship. Bet you'll never guess what "professional" thei-- er folks did that puppy in. Remember, 1812 and the sacking of the White House amoung other buildings including the office of printing. Perfect time to play games. Also remember that in the late 1860's we had all the "reconstruction resolutions" and the the Senate Leaders refusing to seat those 20 some from the south from being able to vote.

Most Americans have never read the Constitution or the fundmental concepts that are what guide this nation.

Iread many so called scolars bad mouth having a liberal arts or history major says what in the hell value do they have--ya can't get a job with those credentials. But those are the courses that give us a better grasp of where we are and what where we are goingf (or not going) and some basis to make some reasoned judgements.

Many have quoted varios versions of Sayantana's quote: I have my own: "those who are ignorant of their historey, are doomed to repeat it's failures."

Many of the militia persons were and are involved in COMMON LAW GRAND JURY. Come on in, the water's fine'

Hopefully in the next couple of days I'll post sites etc for more info--or just Google Bundy rRanch or what is posted here.

Milestones 

Sun, 04/20/2014 - 20:15 | 4678271 Milestones
Milestones's picture

The ORIGINAL 13th amendment which was introduced in 1809 and ratified 1819 has been trashed and swept under the rug.Those of us involved in "The People's" COMMOIN LAW GRAND JURY, which ios now very close to be operational nation wide, is finding some not so subtle but important changes in some of the Supreme's decisions from the original text including Marbury v Madison, one of the most important decision made in 1803. It's called forgery!!

The 14th amendmewnt was illegal from the get go and was never legally ratified on several different levels. As regards the 13th (ORIGINAL) would have banned attorneys from serving in the government at the risk of losing citizenship. Bet you'll never guess what "professional" thei-- er folks did that puppy in. Remember, 1812 and the sacking of the White House amoung other buildings including the office of printing. Perfect time to play games. Also remember that in the late 1860's we had all the "reconstruction resolutions" and the the Senate Leaders refusing to seat those 20 some from the south from being able to vote.

Most Americans have never read the Constitution or the fundmental concepts that are what guide this nation.

Iread many so called scolars bad mouth having a liberal arts or history major says what in the hell value do they have--ya can't get a job with those credentials. But those are the courses that give us a better grasp of where we are and what where we are goingf (or not going) and some basis to make some reasoned judgements.

Many have quoted varios versions of Sayantana's quote: I have my own: "those who are ignorant of their historey, are doomed to repeat it's failures."

Many of the militia persons were and are involved in COMMON LAW GRAND JURY. Come on in, the water's fine'

Hopefully in the next couple of days I'll post sites etc for more info--or just Google Bundy rRanch or what is posted here.

Milestones 

Sun, 04/20/2014 - 20:17 | 4678276 Milestones
Milestones's picture

MY Bad!!            Milestones

Sun, 04/20/2014 - 20:27 | 4678299 Milestones
Milestones's picture

My Gawd, the spelling is right out of the 4th grade! Now  I'm, embarassed.            Milestones

Sat, 04/19/2014 - 15:13 | 4675850 HardAssets
HardAssets's picture

Anusocracy: "All governments are scams and cons.

Match that with the fact that most people are dupes and fools and you have the basis of the modern world."

 

Basis of the ancient world too. 

In other words, this has been going on for a very long time.  Nothing new. People are imprisoned by their ignorance. 'Laws' are used like magic spells; those who believe in the 'voodoo' victimize themselves with them.

TPTB are using 'administrative law' for this very purpose.

The voodoo begins when the toddler is placed in front of a t.v. as 'pacifier' and when carted off to 'school'. The objective is to keep people thinking as children, and ultimately to keep them thinking as slaves.

 

Sat, 04/19/2014 - 19:27 | 4675869 Manthong
Manthong's picture

Hard Ass..

Please consider a slight modification of that notion..

The Sovietized management of education in the USSA since 1917 when the “travelers” brought their great and very astute world views back here from the Communist paridise assured successive generations of fools.

So now that most of the (fool) populace are easily manipulated, that leaves you with the controller disposed portion of society.. they are most all lawyers and their slightly less educated accomplices.

And now what we have is a government of f’n lawyer politicians and judges who are either dupes or hypocrites

The hypocrites are the ones that run things

..but that is only my 2C

Sat, 04/19/2014 - 20:03 | 4676342 fockewulf190
fockewulf190's picture

Better call Saul!  Oh...wait a minute...better talk to Saul instead...using Navaho code...in sign language...under a blanket...

Sat, 04/19/2014 - 20:38 | 4676392 rubiconsolutions
rubiconsolutions's picture

Thursday in an interview conducted at the National Press Club in Washington, D.C., Justices Antonin Scalia and Ruth Bader Ginsburg talked about their views of the First Amendment. Moderator Marvin Kalb questioned Scalia about whether the NSA wiretapping cloud be conceivably be in violation of the Constitution:

Justice Antonin Scalia said, "No because it's not absolute. As Ruth has said there are very few freedoms that are absolute. I mean your person is protected by the Fourth Amendment but as I pointed out when you board a plane someone can pass his hands all over your body that's a terrible intrusion, but given the danger that it's guarding against it's not an unreasonable intrusion. And it can be the same thing with acquiring this data that is regarded as effects. That's why I say its foolish to have us make the decision because I don't know how serious the danger is in this NSA stuff, I really don't."

Let me translate this for you - "Fuck the constitution. The government can do pretty much anything it sees fit. You are merely chattel to support us. If we want agents to grope you, so be it. If we want to rob you blind through taxation, so be it. If we want to restrict your rights because doing so is in our best interest, so be it. Sure, we'll keep up the facade that you have rights but [chuckling] we both know that simply isn't true."


Sat, 04/19/2014 - 22:25 | 4676509 Wahooo
Wahooo's picture

Allow me to summarize your translation: If you like your Constitutional rights, you can keep your Constitutional rights.

Sat, 04/19/2014 - 22:47 | 4676552 jeff montanye
jeff montanye's picture

makes me glad i'm closer to death than birth.

Sun, 04/20/2014 - 00:55 | 4676682 effendi
effendi's picture

Every year over a million Americans die with the knowledge that they are in the last few months of their life (cancer, failing heart and other terminal illnesses). There are also many thousands who choose to die (suicide),often due to the slimeballs having ruined their lives.

So why don't at least some of them go out with a bang instead of a wimper. And by a bang I mean just that, instead of going off into a garage and gassing yourself or shooting yourself you may as well load the car up with fuel/explosives and crash it into a gathering of slimeballs.

Take a few bastards with you. Crooked bankers, slimy politicians, thuggish cops, bought judges; plenty of justifiable  targets. 

People at least remember (and honour) Joe Stark for his final payment to the IRS.

Sun, 04/20/2014 - 04:29 | 4676765 Manthong
Manthong's picture

scalia: "very few freedoms that are absolute"

ok, I had a great slur for you but the better side of me talked me into pulling it.

But look dude.. maybe you're gettin a little long in the tooth there.

You don't even want to try making that argument with me in my environment, not your bought and paid for D.C. fantasy. 

Sun, 04/20/2014 - 14:41 | 4677610 rocker
rocker's picture

Simply put, we are owned by the 1%.  Actually, the owners are less than the 1%.

It's just that the 1% have voting rights in the hierarchy that we do not. 

Sun, 04/20/2014 - 10:09 | 4677060 fedupwhiteguy
fedupwhiteguy's picture

effendi, I've often thought about that. I really think that is the best thing that we as an individual can accomplish. Of course, I'd rather join a group of like minded guys and participate in a revolt somewhere for some noble cause. But a lone baby boomer (how many are succumbing each and every day?) can quietly put his house in final order, gather the needed tools, pick his target and can exit this life with some bit of dignity instead of in a FEMA barrack bunk.

Just Fed Up...

Sun, 04/20/2014 - 20:49 | 4678351 Milestones
Milestones's picture

Well, we have every imaginable kind of group. Why not start it up if no one has started it, --do so. You can call it as the Bard so well put it; The Long Sleep society with a bang at the end.            Milestones

Sat, 04/19/2014 - 23:50 | 4676621 rubiconsolutions
rubiconsolutions's picture

After watching the interview on C-SPAN (almost as much fun as a colonoscopy....almost) he went on to say that "my court" - his words, not mine. HIS court, not America's supreme court but HIS court - isn't really in a position to render a verdict on the NSA because of their ignorance on the threat level. So essentially, what he is saying that the court can't render a decision about something that they are ignorant about. Which means...they shouldn't be rendering any verdict about anything. What the f^&* do they know about healthcare yet they find the ACA - Obamacare - constitutional? Scalia pretty much said that he doesn't believe in privacy although not in so many words.

This country is doomed and I believe in fairly short order, like two or three years based on the fact that the constitution is an increasingly feckless piece of parchment. Not to mention that the economy is toast thanks to the Federal Reserve Act of 1913...which was found constitutional.

"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case it is unfit to exist.” - Lysander Spooner, No Treason: The Constitution of No Authority

Sun, 04/20/2014 - 21:07 | 4678377 MiltonFriedmans...
MiltonFriedmansNightmare's picture

The constitution is now completely irrelevant as we are not a party to it. The U.C.C. Is the law of of the land. There are no common law courts and virtually everyone is tried in admirality. There are no judges, onlyt trustees appointed to oversee and administer the US corp bankruptcy of 1933

Sat, 04/19/2014 - 13:34 | 4675725 Four chan
Four chan's picture

re: the constitutionally limited republic.

the entire structure has been turned on its head.

original structure-> god (if you beleive in it), the individual's rights, county, city, state, federal government limited by the constitution.

todays structure-> federal government unconstrained by the constitution, state government, city, county, individual,god(if you beleive in it)

 

the republic is totally dead and the republicans entrusted to conserve it have been a total failure just like the socialist democrats.

Sat, 04/19/2014 - 19:25 | 4676205 Manthong
Manthong's picture

crud.. not to be argumentative here in Tyler's basement.. but it is not about you or me or our rights...

there is a huge universe of stuff there can be considered to be natural rights.

the system was originally designed by the founders to restrict .gov.

the rest of the crap we have to deal with falls under that.

but omg.. that is an inspiring avatar.

 

 

Sat, 04/19/2014 - 13:58 | 4675733 GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture

"That is why it (Natural Law) is so feared by the establishment." ...but not why it is deeply suspect to others:

"Extermination (of Native peoples) was also seen as an expression of "natural law", a concept...used by the Spanish humanist Juan de Sepulveda in the sixteenth (century) as legal justification for the enslavement of Native people in the Caribbean and Mexico." - Thomas King

Sat, 04/19/2014 - 12:04 | 4675552 rubiconsolutions
rubiconsolutions's picture

"....In other words, if a person works with legal counsel within the confines of the tax code to legitimately minimize the amount of taxes owed,...."

You're going to need more than a lawyer to legitimately minimize the amount of taxes owed. Various sources have the tax code in the US being from 75,000 to 78,000+ pages in length. How on God's green earth can someone, anyone including a lawyer figure that out and not perjure themselves when they sign their 1040? There is no way to figure it out. If it were a painting it would look like something Rube Goldberg contrived. Whether by design or foolishness the tax code of the united states cannot be understood or interpreted in any sound way. If you use several of the various tax programs on the market today you'll get different answers for each one.

Here's an idea: How about asking your lawyer and accountant to sign your return and put their asses on the line for any penalties if they are wrong. See if they'll do that. That's how screwed up the system is, no real professional or sane person would dare sign a document that almost 100% opens the door to perjury. Repeal the 16th amendment!

Sat, 04/19/2014 - 12:41 | 4675635 DoChenRollingBearing
DoChenRollingBearing's picture

Excellent points, yes, if they somehow forced the accountants and lawyers to pay for mistakes, well, maybe they would simplify the tax laws...

Naah!  Just fooling you all!

I suspect they deliberately make it complicated so that they selectively enforce: oppress their enemies or pluck some more money form their targets.

Sat, 04/19/2014 - 13:32 | 4675728 A Lunatic
A Lunatic's picture

That sounds like some kind of Right-wing, wacko, conspiracy theory bullshit ........

Sat, 04/19/2014 - 18:30 | 4675907 Manthong
Manthong's picture

Checks and balances – an elaboration

The genius of the government WE USED TO HAVE was the way that the founders made sure that state legislatures APPOINTED / not elected - put Senators in office...  THEY (older, deliberative proven folks that got 6 years tenure.. not the two year hot shots of the House elected by the populace)  >WERE SUPPOSED TO BE THE CONSCIENCE OF THE GOVERNMENT..  not some beauty contest that gets you a J Corzine, B Boxer, HR Clinton, BH Obama et al that is really a function of TV Ads from banker credit money….. they also determined the Supreme court as well as Cabinet officials…..   Now  that is why “they” .enemies of the United States, . the City of London Corporation funded the evil bastards of Jekyll Island and did it all along with the income tax (16th  Amendment) and the Federal Reserve Bank Act in 1913.

maybe W Wilson was just a dupe, too....  I don't know... 

But wake the F up.. save the country for the kids.

 Repeal the 17th Amendment... give the power back to the states.. and really to you. 

Sun, 04/20/2014 - 01:19 | 4676703 NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

Pieces of paper are not what created this mess or stopped it in the first place. Humans did. 

Sun, 04/20/2014 - 06:46 | 4676822 Frankie Carbone
Frankie Carbone's picture

The paper credits are the schlong that they use when they bend us over. God invented gold and silver. Man created fiat currency. God is divine. Man is inherently evil. Think about it. 

Sun, 04/20/2014 - 09:13 | 4676945 NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

You should probably go back and read the post I was replying too ;-)

Sat, 04/19/2014 - 16:17 | 4675959 laboratorymike
laboratorymike's picture

I've read that lawyers were once paid by the word. Hence "stop" becoming "cease and desist."

 

And for some sci-fi horror fun:

http://www.scp-wiki.net/scp-738

Test 7: Sheldon Katz, Esq., senior counsel with the Foundation's legal department.
Result: At commencement of test, Mr. Katz presented the entity with a notarized, apostilled affidavit stating that he was participating in the test on his own behalf and not as agent for the Foundation. Approximately forty-one hours after the commencement of the test, Mr. Katz lapsed into unconsciousness due to exhaustion. Mr. Katz described the appearance of the entity as identical to his first-year contracts professor from law school, but he declined to describe the nature of the offer that had been made. He reported that just prior to his blacking out, he had been in the midst of negotiating a precise technical definition of the word "shall". Katz stated that the current working draft of the agreement that he and the entity had been drafting was at least nine hundred pages long at that moment, exclusive of exhibits and schedules, and that he regretted not keeping a copy for his form file. A red leather envelope, smelling of sulphur, was found on Mr. Katz's person, which contained a handwritten note reading "Please come back any time. I haven't had so much fun in years." Mr. Katz has requested reassignment.

Sat, 04/19/2014 - 13:13 | 4675694 Unknown User
Unknown User's picture

So can we get Koch Brothers lawyers to testify about their taxes?  Hopefully they will all get a permanent jail visit.

Sat, 04/19/2014 - 14:06 | 4675784 thamnosma
thamnosma's picture

Another pure idiot with a leftist obsession on the Koch Brothers, who actually fund campaigns against this fascist/marxist regime.  Get the fuck out of here.

Sat, 04/19/2014 - 16:19 | 4675963 laboratorymike
laboratorymike's picture

Regardless of the Koch Brothers individually, the article clearly points to the fact that the government wants to overturn the legal precedent of individuals not having to pay more than they are legally required, so that they can raise taxes without having to raise the official tax rate.

Sat, 04/19/2014 - 15:02 | 4675857 TheReplacement
TheReplacement's picture

Dear Paid Agent,

You lie.  The problem is not the Kock brothers' lawyers but the insane tax code.  You, yourself, are certainly violating the code and breaking numerous laws every day.  You had better pray to whatever thing you believe in that nobody who considers you an enemy wins election to office high enough to use the mechanisms of government against you.  You will go to prison if they do not kill you first. 

Forward!, to the labor camps and mass graves. 

Sat, 04/19/2014 - 16:17 | 4675957 chapaev's ghost
chapaev's ghost's picture

Once Petka, Anka and myself toured a model Soviet factory. We saw workers operating sophisticated machinery, and many shiny  new items rolling along assembly line conveyor belts.

Finally, we entered the factory director's office, only to discover him fucking his secretary on top of his desk.

I said, "My God, let's shoot this bourgieosie reactionary!

"Oh, no Comrade," said Petka, "You know that when we finally achieve the dictatorship of the proletariat, we will all lie around, eating and fucking, and not have to do any work at all. This man is a true Socialist pioneer, because he has reached the promised land before the rest of us!"

Sat, 04/19/2014 - 18:18 | 4676152 g speed
g speed's picture

TheReplacement----sorry-is not the insane tax code--it is the gov't --hedge accordingly

Sat, 04/19/2014 - 18:18 | 4676153 sylviasays
sylviasays's picture

So can we get Barry's rich cronies like Geroge Soros and Warren Buffett along with their lawyers to testify about their taxes?  Hopefully they will all get a permanent jail visit? Naw...

Sat, 04/19/2014 - 13:20 | 4675709 lakecity55
lakecity55's picture

It was set up that way to give .gov the Power to steal everything you have at gunpoint.

 

US Citizens are nothing but meat puppets to them, to be used, abused and murdered on a whim.

Sun, 04/20/2014 - 10:28 | 4677109 Franktastic
Franktastic's picture

when the time comes (and it will) anyone who supported this nazi state and that includes attack dogs and hamsters, will die a miserable death.

Sat, 04/19/2014 - 14:29 | 4675822 MEAN BUSINESS
MEAN BUSINESS's picture

rubiconsolutions, repeal 16th is part of HR25 Fairtax(.org) in ways and means Camp but as long as the 75,000 pages benefit the same funders of the politicians, no significant change will happen. Since so few people have any time or interest in the matter, it languishes while what few supporters are out there are attacked ceaselessly in the blogosphere. I don't know all that much about it but it speaks to a tax code numbered in pages, not even hundreds of pages, and speaks of ending the 16th and virtually all of the IRS. 

Is the LIberty Movement on this? I see squat discussion of the Fairtax on ZH. Ironic when it was Gary Johnson, Libertarian candidate for POTUS 2012 that brought it to my attention.

That's pretty much a rhetorical question because even if ZH held a marathon sideblog on the issue and 99% voted to support the Fairtax, 349,000,000 Americans would never know about it.

Maybe the cowboys should be in the MSM's face instead of the BLM's.

Sat, 04/19/2014 - 22:10 | 4676491 NeedtoSecede
NeedtoSecede's picture

Mean Business,

I heard about the  Fair Tax more than 10 years ago, and once thought it held promise. But I think I am probably like many others here in that I now see that the entire system is so corrupt and completely broken, that implementing a new tax system would be rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. We are finished until we can either break it up or burn it down and start over.

Maybe you would get more attention here on ZH for the Fair Tax if you threw in a couple mentions of precious metals along with a well placed  "Fuck You Ben" and a hearfelt " Kiss my ass Eric dickHolder".

Secession anyone?

Sat, 04/19/2014 - 20:40 | 4676393 Parrotile
Parrotile's picture

Rubicon et al - is (maybe are) there any hard copies of this document? At 5g per A4 sheet (assuming the document is printed on A4), that's a LOT of paper weight (75K pages = 37,500 sheets (assuming double-sided printing) = about 1.88 TONNES of paper 78 K would be slightly more (same criteria, 39,000 sheets = 1.95 Tonnes).

These back of envelope calculations do not include binding, end-papers, board for covers, etc.

It would seem that this "Tax Code" alone would comfortably occupy a small to medium Library!

Sat, 04/19/2014 - 17:59 | 4676116 mt paul
mt paul's picture

Buggering easter bunnies batman

that's not good news at all...

Sun, 04/20/2014 - 19:28 | 4678183 AreaMan
AreaMan's picture

www.AmericaAgainNow.com

 

Seriously ... an indictment engine against the politicol elite. Lets get this rolling.

Sat, 04/19/2014 - 11:23 | 4675460 AmCockerSpaniel
AmCockerSpaniel's picture

For most of us, this is good news (lower 99%)!  But; If you are in the one percent, or better, the one tenth of one persent.....

NOT so good news.

Sat, 04/19/2014 - 11:29 | 4675485 gmrpeabody
gmrpeabody's picture

You may want to rethink that statement....

(no, I didn't down you)

Sat, 04/19/2014 - 13:39 | 4675734 nevadan
nevadan's picture

Something not addressed in this article is the fact that the Feds can attack the people anonymously by making it a punishable offense for a lawyer to disclose to the subject of an investigation that they are being scrutinized.  Attorney client priviledge my ass.  When your attorney can't even tell you about official queries there is no such thing to begin with.  This includes your banker, accountant, or anyone else who has access to confidential personal information.

Sat, 04/19/2014 - 14:08 | 4675787 jackstraw001
jackstraw001's picture

I downed him because he made a fucking idiotic comment.

Sat, 04/19/2014 - 20:18 | 4676365 AmCockerSpaniel
AmCockerSpaniel's picture

I don't know about the comment, but I am an old "idiot" (in the 70's).

"When a person puts into issue his subjective intent in deciding how to comply with the law, he may forfeit the privilege

afforded attorney-client communications."  I take this as tax dodging. It's said that the 0.1% pay NO taxes. So how is

that?  This came out of tax court. Last; I use Turbo Tax, and I pay more than Buffet. 

Sat, 04/19/2014 - 22:20 | 4676503 xtop23
xtop23's picture

Please tell me that you aren't seriously using TurboTax.

 

Sun, 04/20/2014 - 00:49 | 4676673 laboratorymike
laboratorymike's picture

I do not see how Warren Buffet pays no taxes, since capital gains is taxed at 20% and the AMT is 26%. Now it is true that corporations are taxed on profits, which means that in most cases a corp has to lose money or just break even to not pay tax. Unless you are GE and your entire business model is finding loopholes.

The vast majority of people "tax dodge" on your definition. If I as a student use the tuition tax break, I am legally lowering my taxes. If I buy a house and claim the mortgage interest deduction, I am legally lowering my taxes. If I have a company and changed a few parts to get into a tax-advantaged situation, I am legally lowering my taxes. The tax men don't want you to question why they need 19% of GDP in taxes every year, they just want permission to end the practise of legally lowering taxes so that everyone, not just the rich people, will have to pay full taxes on everything, and likely go broke in the process.

Sat, 04/19/2014 - 21:16 | 4676437 laboratorymike
laboratorymike's picture

He did, but since there's always some on-the-fence people not commenting, I think it's worth explaining why he said something idiotic.

Example 1: Look at the income tax. When it was passed, the bait was lower tarriffs (great for the 99%) and higher taxes on the wealthy only (hurts the 1%). Now, just about everyone has to give the government an interest-free loan and file with the IRS to get it back and not be charged more. If you are in the lower half and a corporate wage slave of course. Since I started as self-employed, getting paid $1,000 and knowing I have to put $250 of it aside (low income case, $400+ for high) is a real pain compared to when a boss did it for me. God forbid I ever get successful, because if I get to being paid well enough to owe a lot of tax, but not enough to buy a politician, then this article applies directly to me.

Example 2: There is such a thing as mission creep. When I talk with my liberal dad/uncles about government agencies and regulation, they like them because they grew up in a factory town where complaining about the big corporation led to one getting blacklisted from employment and having the bank suddenly call in the mortgage loan. So to them having, say, the EPA come in and demand the factory stop dumping waste in the river seemed like a good deal. But in my generation (Y), I knew a lot of people forced of their land when developers would work with regulators to trump up some environmental charges and force landownders to become willing sellers. So once again, legislation that is supposed to "get back at the 1%" or "make everything fair" actually becomes a weapon for anyone who has a little power to wipe the walls with anyone he pleases. My friends and in-laws over in China can attest to this; the CPC came to power on the promise of fairness for the people, but now the CPC and the state-owned companies (their version of our TBTF) can do pretty much whatever they please. And if a cop wants the whole floor of an apartment to himself, he can have anyone convicted on BS charges if he ranks high enough (happened to a friend).

If this precedent builds, I am sure that other "important" cases that demand breaking attorney-client privacy will come up. Taxes and terrorism come first, but let's say the mayor's kid comes into a bar picking fights? Not only will any man trying to stop him be at fault, but when he talks with his lawyer or doctor (if he took a few blows), any unrelated secret can be used against him.

 

Bottom line: The definition of insanity idiocy is demanding the same laws and expecting a different result.

Sat, 04/19/2014 - 15:05 | 4675859 TheReplacement
TheReplacement's picture

NSA/DNC plant,

This is why only the 0.1% will benefit - they can buy off the judges and lawyers.  You are a fool and they will hang you when you are no longer useful.  Wake up, you happily marching everyone, including yourself, to the ovens.

Useful idiot, look that term up in a dictionary and you might see your own face pictured as the example.

Sat, 04/19/2014 - 11:16 | 4675451 U4 eee aaa
U4 eee aaa's picture

I wish they would just get back to enforcing Morse code. Things started unraveling really fast when they stopped enforcing that. Coincidence? I think not

Sat, 04/19/2014 - 12:43 | 4675642 ebworthen
ebworthen's picture

Trading by Morse code only to defeat HFT's, I like it.

Human hand only.

Sat, 04/19/2014 - 22:45 | 4676548 acetinker
acetinker's picture

It's also about under-standing the code, Vivek.  The code is not law, yet it is under-stood as such by the vast majority.

We are conscripted from birth into a system we could not possibly comprehend.  Hence, our under-standing and con-sent are tacitly presumed.

By the time we realize this, (most never do, btw)- we are deeply mired in the quicksand of the debt/code machine.

Natural law has no place here.  Nature has been rejected in favor of the code of legislators, and it is the sheer ignorance (not necessarily stupidity), of the 'governed' that makes this possible- That, and the perversion of the language.

The only entity I under-stand is that of my Maker.  The Natural Law is my equal, being created by that same Maker.

May Peace be unto You, Vivek!

Sun, 04/20/2014 - 07:38 | 4676846 Oh regional Indian
Oh regional Indian's picture

Ace, well said brother. Exactly as I see/under-stand things...

ori

Sun, 04/20/2014 - 02:07 | 4676729 Vart Drader
Vart Drader's picture

If you cant talk straight - you cant think straight.

Sun, 04/20/2014 - 08:14 | 4676866 Oh regional Indian
Oh regional Indian's picture

Their intentions exactly!

Sat, 04/19/2014 - 10:47 | 4675395 El Oregonian
El Oregonian's picture

Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose. -Janis Joplin ~RIP~

Sat, 04/19/2014 - 11:43 | 4675516 flybynet
flybynet's picture

Kris Kristoferson

Sat, 04/19/2014 - 13:39 | 4675736 Miles Ahead
Miles Ahead's picture

Kristofferson

Sat, 04/19/2014 - 11:43 | 4675517 flybynet
flybynet's picture

Kris Kristoferson

Sat, 04/19/2014 - 13:41 | 4675741 Miles Ahead
Miles Ahead's picture

Kristofferson

Sat, 04/19/2014 - 11:43 | 4675518 flybynet
flybynet's picture

Kris Kristoferson

Sat, 04/19/2014 - 14:32 | 4675746 Miles Ahead
Miles Ahead's picture

Kristoffer-fucking-son gotdammit.

If you're going to be anal, at least be anally correct.

Janis sang it too, btw.  And it's the one remembered by more.

Than... Kris Kristofferson

Sun, 04/20/2014 - 10:17 | 4677084 PhilofOz
PhilofOz's picture

I'd give more credit to the one writing the song, and that was Kristofferson. Still going strong btw, saw him in concert in Adelaide a few weeks ago as part of his Aussie tour.

Sun, 04/20/2014 - 11:31 | 4677240 chemystical
chemystical's picture

"...I'd give more credit to the one writing the song..."

You presume (incorrectly for the most part) that the general public is equally familiar with both the writers and the crooners of song.

In this instance you (amongst I'll wager a tiny minority) knew who wrote this particular song, and now you'll have us use this as a rule for all?

"blame it on the Stones":  now THAT's a Kris oldie

Sun, 04/20/2014 - 01:11 | 4676670 evernewecon
evernewecon's picture

 

 

Stuff I see's linkable at YouTube/Google--don't do it

if you're not supposed to.   It linking's O.K., don't do

anything culpably with it, eh?

 

www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5If816MhoU&t=3m25s

Janis Joplin - Ball and Chain (sensational performance at Monterey) 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6iX-EcRKXJw&t=0m15s Janis Joplin / Me And Bobby Mcgee [Live] 1970  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHrSdSUB2L4 Me and Bobby McGee - Janis Joplin Rare Version! HQ  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irU5oihACj4&t=0m15s RARE 1st Studio Recording Of "Me & Bobby McGee" Janis Joplin  Hi Oregon, from San Diego. She insisted on her birthright. And now we're worshiping her. Because she insisted on her birthright and she... she...  liked democracy, and cooperation, instead of unequal and privatization. Tyler--more servers or something?
Sat, 04/19/2014 - 12:35 | 4675625 voltaic
voltaic's picture

Government suspends controversial program to recover money from adult children of dead taxpayers | Fox News http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/04/14/social-security-administratio...

That was a line of legislation added to the 2010 Farm bill. Apparently no one in Congress besides the author of that line is aware they signed the legislation permitting that theft. 

Sat, 04/19/2014 - 15:51 | 4675915 cynicalskeptic
cynicalskeptic's picture

The joys of legislation with all kinds of things tacked on that are TOTALLY UNRELATED to the original bill.

 

How hard would it be to require that any given bill focus ONLY on one basic topic and related issues?   But then it's easier to sneak crap by and get pork passed this way.

Sat, 04/19/2014 - 22:43 | 4676545 Buck Johnson
Buck Johnson's picture

Everybody just wait and see, just wait and see.  Our country is going to become a oligarchy paradise where areas of the country will be enclaves of the rich and powerful and the rest of the country will be controlled by local strong men under the direction of the powerful.  We will see a technological serfdom come to the US.

Sat, 04/19/2014 - 10:23 | 4675345 y3maxx
y3maxx's picture

USA = ONE GIANT F*CKING PRISON

Sat, 04/19/2014 - 10:45 | 4675390 max2205
max2205's picture

But aapl amzn goog can get away with zero tax rates....equality for all!

Sat, 04/19/2014 - 12:27 | 4675606 Inbetween is pain
Inbetween is pain's picture

That's easy for you to say sitting fat in your middle class home with your fat middle class wife.  How about the two million people who are in jail and prison in the U.S., the people I doubt you were referring to?

Sat, 04/19/2014 - 14:08 | 4675788 Winston Churchill
Winston Churchill's picture

Ah, you mean the higher security wing of our prison.
We are just on work release really.

Sat, 04/19/2014 - 10:36 | 4675374 loonyleft
loonyleft's picture

Hopey Changey Barry strikes again - get rid of this turd!!!!!!!!!!

 

Downvoting the Barry haters. I can't stand the guy myself but please, stop, just stop. This has nothing to do with him at all. Nothing. 

This shit was happening before him and will happen after him. 

The more people like you continue to hold on to the idea that it's one person, or the left, or right or whoever is doing this at this particular time, the more you are just as much the problem. 

Trust me, I'm taking names and marking them down and when 'the next guy' gets in and he's 'on your side' and the same shit keeps happening, but even faster now, I will be the first to say "I fucking told you so" 

 

Sat, 04/19/2014 - 10:44 | 4675387 linniepar
linniepar's picture

I blame Jimmy Carter.

Sat, 04/19/2014 - 10:47 | 4675396 max2205
max2205's picture

Lincoln had to be the worst. ...when everything went to shit 

Sat, 04/19/2014 - 10:56 | 4675412 sleigher
sleigher's picture

That's when it started.  As for the courts, there are no courts in America.  Nor are there judges.  We have executive administrators who enforce policy of the corporation.  

Sat, 04/19/2014 - 12:23 | 4675596 Inbetween is pain
Inbetween is pain's picture

Suddenly Lincoln is the bad guy because Bill O'Reilly writes a stupid book.  Like O'Reilly I imagine most of you Lincoln haters probably think slavery was a good thing.

Sat, 04/19/2014 - 13:18 | 4675705 chemystical
chemystical's picture

"Suddenly Lincoln is the bad guy because Bill O'Reilly writes a stupid book"

He's been a bad guy since Day 1, and I wasn't aware of an O'Reilly book.  Try Prof DiLorenzo's book.

"I imagine most of you Lincoln haters probably think slavery was a good thing"

If you think that the Civil War was about slavery, then you win the prize for today's most naive poster.  Perhaps I can assume facts not in evidence and say that your "knowledge" of Lincoln comes from Speilberg's movie?

Slavery was introduced as a national war issue 2 years after the war began.  As for Lincoln & slavery, peruse the following quotes from Lincoln:

"My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that."

"Do the people of the South really entertain fears that a Republican administration would, directly, or indirectly, interfere with their slaves, or with them, about their slaves? If they do, I wish to assure you, as once a friend, and still, I hope, not an enemy, that there is no cause for such fears."  1860.  Was he a liar or was he telling the truth here?  One or the other.

"I believe the declara[tion] that 'all men are created equal' is the great fundamental principle upon which our free institutions rest; that negro slavery is violative of that principle; but that, by our frame of government, that principle has not been made one of legal obligation; that by our frame of government, the States which have slavery are to retain it, or surrender it at their own pleasure; and that all others---individuals, free-states and national government---are constitutionally bound to leave them alone about it." 1858.  Again, liar or not?

"I hold it to be a paramount duty of us in the free states, due to the Union of the states, and perhaps to liberty itself (paradox though it may seem) to let the slavery of the other states alone" 1845

I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races."  Darn those Lincoln-Douglass debates.  How dare they preserve Lincoln's own words.

In Aug 1962 while stil drafting the Emmancipation Proclamation (which freed the slaves in the South while ignoring those in the North; a South over which he held zero jurisdiciton or powe), Lincoln hosted a delegation of freed slaves and told them that they needed to go back to Africa (and specifically mentioned Liberia): "better for us both, therefore, to be separated."  Those freed slaves were incensed and said that the USA was as much their country as his.  Controversy followed, and Lincoln the politically-expedient weasel never mentioned a return to Africa again.

Did his thoughts evolve (quickly and conveniently and subject to our disbelief), or was he a tyrannical narcisist hellbent on preserving the thing that he commands?  He jailed a newspaper publisher and sitting Congressman for publishing anti-war rhetoric.  Freedom of the press applies only when it suited him.   Federal troops were stationed inside and outside of voting places, and you needed a ribbon to get in, and you only received a ribbon after being interrogated about whom you intended to vote for

Cognitive dissonance is a bitch

Sat, 04/19/2014 - 13:44 | 4675744 the question
the question's picture

chemystical said: "Was he a liar or was he telling the truth here?  One or the other."

How about maybe Lincoln never even said any of that to begin with? Were you present with him when he made the statement? Or do you believe everything you read?

Sat, 04/19/2014 - 16:06 | 4675941 nevadan
nevadan's picture

Much of what chemystical quoted is ennunciated in Lincoln's first innaugural address.  Maybe you should just do some reading.

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Abraham_Lincoln%27s_First_Inaugural_Address

Sat, 04/19/2014 - 19:54 | 4676324 the question
the question's picture

Maybe you should read your linked web page and find the specific quote I was responding to. It's not there.

 

Sat, 04/19/2014 - 20:58 | 4676409 nevadan
nevadan's picture

Here, since you are obviously too lazy to use a search engine. 

http://www.abrahamlincolnonline.org/lincoln/speeches/greeley.htm

You can attack someone with a strawman by asking if he were there to hear the statements he quoted when he obviously couldn't have been, but his statements are accurate.  At least if you can accept historical documents that refute your petty argument.  I simply used the inaugural address since it contained the sentiments in several different quotes. 

Sat, 04/19/2014 - 21:06 | 4676423 the question
the question's picture

The only "petty argument" I am trying to make, is that a person shouldn't say, "One or the other..."  In this world, very few things are binary black and white.

None of us here personally knew Lincoln, so why do you act like you do? Does it make you feel intelligent? 

Sat, 04/19/2014 - 21:15 | 4676436 the question
the question's picture

By the way, again, the page you link to does not contain the quote.  And even if you were to find the exact quote (which you've failed to do twice now), it doesn't prove that Lincoln was a villain. If anything, it only shows that Lincoln wanted nothing more than to save the country.

Personally, I don't take statements from the internet as universal truth.

"Do the people of the South really entertain fears that a Republican administration would, directly, or indirectly, interfere with their slaves, or with them, about their slaves? If they do, I wish to assure you, as once a friend, and still, I hope, not an enemy, that there is no cause for such fears."

Sat, 04/19/2014 - 22:12 | 4676493 nevadan
nevadan's picture

So what's your point?  Lincoln didn't say those things?

Sat, 04/19/2014 - 14:23 | 4675808 NickVegas
NickVegas's picture

My deep understanding of Lincoln derives from multiple viewings of "Lincoln, Vampire Hunter". It's as good most history taught to our children.

Sat, 04/19/2014 - 15:14 | 4675871 James T. Kirk
James T. Kirk's picture

That is the single most profound insight I have seen on ZH this year.

Sat, 04/19/2014 - 15:05 | 4675860 hardmedicine
hardmedicine's picture

I love you!

 

Sat, 04/19/2014 - 15:07 | 4675861 TheReplacement
TheReplacement's picture

Too much blah blah.

Simple question, why did the south secede?

Sat, 04/19/2014 - 17:22 | 4676043 I need Another Beer
I need Another Beer's picture

Thank you ChemMan !  I give U a million UP votes.   And beer

Sun, 04/20/2014 - 01:18 | 4676699 effendi
effendi's picture

Lincolns attitude towards slavery was that although he was opposed to it it wasn't really that important compared to other issues. In 1863 he even wrote that he would accept the continuation of slavery as long as the South rejoined the Union.

The war wasn't about slavery but about the power of central government and to support that power of central government Lincoln thought it OK to expand slavery (such as conscripting migrants in NY for the army). Also to steal wealth (siezing private property to support the Union army), suspension of habeus corpus, locking up opposing politicians, printing fiat funny money, crapping on the constitution and a whole other raft of shameful acts.

Lincoln was worse than Wilson, FDR, Clinton, Bush and Obummer combined. 

Sat, 04/19/2014 - 10:49 | 4675398 nevadan
nevadan's picture

You should blame Abraham Lincoln.  He destroyed states rights and set the Federal government superior in all things.

Sat, 04/19/2014 - 11:31 | 4675489 Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

1. You really should search for all the things that Lincoln failed at in his life, before becoming President.

2. And I recall watching some history program, that indicated he was a closet homosexual.

Do you know of any modern President who models himself after Lincoln?

Sat, 04/19/2014 - 12:18 | 4675582 mrdenis
mrdenis's picture

I thought Barry was the first queer president 

Sat, 04/19/2014 - 12:30 | 4675614 nevadan
nevadan's picture

You really should search for all the things that Lincoln failed at in his life, before becoming President.

Whatever his personal failings may or may not have been, his actions while holding the reins of power are what affect us today.  Rather than dealing in innuendo I prefer to look at documented facts.   These two books are well researched and footnoted.  They are an excellent read about what he actually did.

 

http://www.amazon.com/The-Real-Lincoln-Abraham-Unnecessary/dp/0761526463

http://www.amazon.com/Lincoln-Unmasked-Youre-Supposed-Dishonest/dp/03073...

Sat, 04/19/2014 - 13:24 | 4675715 chemystical
chemystical's picture

I read the DiLorenzo book while flying to Atl.  What an eye-opener.  Subsequent to that I watched him debate on Lincoln.  His debate opponent - also a college professor - failed miserably because he no longer had the protection of the pulpit in his classroom nor a classroom filled with students who were raised on spoonfed bullshit and who typically do not challenge a professor lest risk their grade wrath.

Sat, 04/19/2014 - 13:57 | 4675769 nevadan
nevadan's picture

Yes.  DiLorenzo exposes one of the fundamental mythologies of America for what it is.  A myth.  Lincoln certainly wasn't the first to weaken the Constitution but he struck a vital blow.  Wilson delivered the mortal wound with the 16th &17th ammendments.

Sat, 04/19/2014 - 13:16 | 4675700 lakecity55
lakecity55's picture

Hey! A mulatto on the down low currently in DC?

Sat, 04/19/2014 - 15:16 | 4675873 TheReplacement
TheReplacement's picture

I realize that in your mind Lincoln was the devil incarnate but tell me a couple of things.  Why did the south secede?  Which side attacked the other first?  I think you will find the south seceded over slavery and they started the war too, over slavery.  Slavery is not a right.  Those states should have been decimated for what they did. 

Those states, more than Lincoln, were responsible for the destruction of states' rights when they took up arms in order to protect slavery.  If I found a neighbor keeping slaves as in the south I would gladly take whatever weapon at hand and liberate them even if I have to destroy "states' rights" in order to preserve human rights.  If you want states' rights then grow up and be responsible for all of the individual rights therein.  If your state will not do that then it should be destroyed.

Blaming Lincoln for winning the war and all that required is asinine when it was not him who started the war.

Sat, 04/19/2014 - 20:21 | 4676369 nevadan
nevadan's picture

OK.  It is a given that slavery is in no way justifiable.  Score the easy point.  BUT!... It is in no way accurate to say the south started the war over slavery.  Read a little history and you will find that the north controlled the congress and for many years the south had complained of restrictive trade laws that favored the north at the south's expense.  Specifically it was called the tariff of abominations.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tariff_of_1828

To be sure slavery was a hotly contested social issue and contributed to the problems leading up to the war, but the north was hardly blameless.  Like it or not slavery was a legally recognized institution and the south was within its legal rights to demand that runaway slaves be returned.  The fugitive slave act was routinely nullified by the northern states and was one of the main complaints listed in the secession documents.  Incidentally, this nullification is a great example for states rights/tenth amendment arguments that was used FOR THE SLAVES by the north.  This issue had been brewing since Jackson's time in the 1830's when a patch compromise was reached, but did not end the problem.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nullification_Crisis

The declaration by the state of South Carolina for the immediate causes for secession clearly states the south's position.  Like it or not they were right in the legal sense.  Obviously slavery is a contemptible institution but to hold the north blameless for the causes of the war is to be ignorant of the facts. 

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/South_Carolina_Declaration_of_the_Causes_...

 

Fort Sumter would not have been attacked but for northern provocation in South Carolina.  Slavery was ended everywhere else on the planet without warfare of the kind that nearly destroyed the nation.  Why was it necessary here?  The south just wanted out of the Union and if left to their own devices would have done so peacefully, but the northern politicians would not let it happen.  The rallying call for the north was not "Free the slaves" but instead "Save the Union".  Lincoln's personal preference was to send all blacks back to Africa and use the Irish for menial labor.

It is easy for you to puff up and take the high moral ground but ignoring the situation as it was makes for a weak argument.  And the fact still remains that much of our legacy of federal overreach is a direct result of Lincoln's efforts.

Sun, 04/20/2014 - 12:15 | 4677321 chemystical
chemystical's picture

"I think you will find the south seceded over slavery and they started the war too, over slavery." 

Hogwash.  Taxes and tarrifs and duties had nothing to do with iut, eh? 

P.S. the Industrial Revolution was well into making slave labor obsolete.

 

"Slavery is not a right."

Agreed 100%, but I never said that it was Strawman.

 

"Slavery is not a right....Those states should have been decimated for what they did."

WHICH states would that be?  ONLY those in the CSA?  Or do you include THE UNION'S slave states as well?  (KY, MO, DEL, MD).  Or, and more to the point...

...how about ALL of the Union states that EVER held slaves?  How about that?  Here's the salient timeline: 1) Northern states hold slaves.  2) SOME Northern states realize the evil of slavery, but rather than free their slaves they SELL them to the South.  3) North chastises South for holding slaves.

What a naive and facile view you have.

Sun, 04/20/2014 - 21:32 | 4678416 Milestones
Milestones's picture

I think you might want to read some of Supreme Court Judge John marshall writing and his decisions. Marshall was way ahead of Lincoln.You might want to reconsider that statement.                                       Milestones

Sat, 04/19/2014 - 10:55 | 4675409 A Lunatic
A Lunatic's picture

I blame the attending physician at my birth. What an asshole to drag me kicking and screaming into this cluster fuck.......

Sat, 04/19/2014 - 10:57 | 4675415 sleigher
sleigher's picture

I blame my dad for not pulling out.  I haven't spoken to him since 7th grade.

Sat, 04/19/2014 - 13:52 | 4675755 post turtle saver
post turtle saver's picture

I'm going out the same way I came in... bald, screaming, and covered in someone else's blood...

Sat, 04/19/2014 - 11:34 | 4675495 813kml
813kml's picture

In case that wasn't sarc, Jimmy Carter was the only respectable US Prez of the last 50 years.  I would vote for him, wheelchair and all.

Sat, 04/19/2014 - 12:48 | 4675653 ebworthen
ebworthen's picture

He was a good man in an already corrupted office, and in a little over his head.

I was really disappointed and angry that he pulled our athletes out of the 1980 Summer Olympics.

Sat, 04/19/2014 - 13:56 | 4675764 Overfed
Overfed's picture

I like Gerald Ford. He didn't do any damage.

Sat, 04/19/2014 - 14:30 | 4675824 PhysicalRealm
PhysicalRealm's picture

Ford pardoned Nixon . . . 

Sun, 04/20/2014 - 21:54 | 4678461 Dapper Dan
Dapper Dan's picture

Ford pardoned Nixon to get Nixon to admit he did something terrible wrong,

To pardon someone is to indict them with guilt.

 Cites Supreme Court decision: accepting pardon imputes guilt

[When Ford was interviewed in his 80's, he was asked]: Why didn't you make sure that Nixon's statement accepting the pardon went further? Nixon's statement said, "No words can describe the depth of my regret and pain at the anguish my mistakes over Watergate had caused."

Why didn't he press Nixon harder for an admission of guilt? "I still carry it around in my packet, their statement," Ford said. He reached into his pockets. "I've got it in my wallet here because any time anybody challenges me I pull it out." He searched around in his wallet.

He handed me a folded, dog-eared piece of paper. It was a portion of the 1915 Burdick Supreme Court decision that he'd been carrying around for years. I began to read aloud. "Most important, the justices found that a pardon 'carries an imputation of guilt, acceptance, a confession of it,'"

Ford landed on the last phrase, & he repeated it: "'Acceptance, a confession of it.'" See, Nixon confessed, he said. "That was always very reassuring to me.

http://www.ontheissues.org/Archive/Profiles_In_Courage_Gerald_Ford.htm

Sat, 04/19/2014 - 15:37 | 4675892 dizzyfingers
dizzyfingers's picture

He was part of the JFK murder coverup!

Sat, 04/19/2014 - 18:37 | 4676182 g speed
g speed's picture

He nominated Justice Stevens--He pardoned Nixon----He did a lot of damage--do not give anyone of these imperialists any  slack. Just saying.

Sat, 04/19/2014 - 12:54 | 4675660 PhysicalRealm
PhysicalRealm's picture

Bearing in mind the whole left/right red/blue thing is BS, I like what Ivins said about Carter:

"I am uneasily reminded of the last time this press corps failed to understand a president (for kindness' sake, we will draw a veil over the performance of this press corps during the Reagan years). Jimmy Carter was a president the press just never cottoned to. Like the senators during the Anita Hill/Clarence Thomas hearings, they just didn't get it.
    Actually, it was pretty simple. Jimmy Carter has been out of office for thirteen years now. And every day for thirteen years, that man has gone out and behaved like a good Christian -- for no money. Because that's who he is, and that's who he always was. But that was too simple for Power Town."
    - Molly Ivins (August 30, 1944 - January 31, 2007), in _Who Let The Dogs In?_ (2004)

Sat, 04/19/2014 - 13:06 | 4675677 ebworthen
ebworthen's picture

Yes.  Thanks for the quote.  "Power Town" = priceless.

Sat, 04/19/2014 - 13:28 | 4675720 chemystical
chemystical's picture

and easy for the Fed to sabotage his term there. 

Then again, he did establish the Dept of Education.

Sat, 04/19/2014 - 13:17 | 4675702 ILLILLILLI
ILLILLILLI's picture

It didn't help that Carter supports the Palestinian cause and has written extensively about it, and has spoken out publicly against the conduct of the Zionists.

Sat, 04/19/2014 - 14:51 | 4675845 optimator
optimator's picture

The older savers that are now making less than 1% on their money saw their money double in five years on a five year C.D.

Sat, 04/19/2014 - 18:47 | 4676197 g speed
g speed's picture

Jmmy Carter of Dept of Energy fame?? ---or the new state dept policy that fosterd guys like Idi Amin --and the "princess of the necklace" Mrs Mandella--

Do not give any of these imperialists and slack--

Sun, 04/20/2014 - 00:35 | 4676663 MeBizarro
MeBizarro's picture

Dept of Energy was created to fund and maintain the US nuclear arsenal and off the DOD budget ledger. It remains to this day. Oil crisis was just convenient cover.

Sun, 04/20/2014 - 01:29 | 4676709 effendi
effendi's picture

I am very much a right winger but I hold great respect for Jimmy Carter. Not the greatest of politicians but unlike most who held the office he was fundamentally a decent man.

Why so many down voted you is one of the problems with your country, too many see team red/team blue and any support shown for the other team gets a downvote.

Sat, 04/19/2014 - 10:46 | 4675391 BlindMonkey
BlindMonkey's picture

I am well aware, as most of us here are, that it is not a left-right issue. It would be impossible to swing the virtual dead cat around here and not hit a person that loaths McCain and Graham.

Never the less, I find Barry to be particularly worthy of animosity. His assumption of his exceptionalism is nauseating. The pace that he is overseeing the destruction of this once great county is breathtaking.

Basically, fuck him and everyone like him.

Sat, 04/19/2014 - 11:21 | 4675456 loonyleft
loonyleft's picture

When a systematic issue that spans all spectrums and falls squarely on TPTB who do these things because they can, for their own gain, with disregard for others, and someone specifically calls out one person, they fail. 

To try and rationalize that 'he is overseeing the destruction' only goes to show how much you want to point your finger at one person and pretty much negates any of your previous 'well aware of left ight issue' especially when the comment I made was originally targeted at the OP who said 'get rid of this turd' which has the implicit statement that things would change once Barry's gone....which they won't. 

 

 

Sat, 04/19/2014 - 11:35 | 4675500 BlindMonkey
BlindMonkey's picture

"..'get rid of this turd' which has the implicit statement that things would change once Barry's gone....which they won't."

 

I guy agree that things are unlikely to change until America has hit rock bottom.  That is not what I am discussing though. 

 

In an attempt to refine my thoughts a bit.  Barry has a particularly disgusting way of rubbing our noses in his shit piles that I find repulsive.  GWB at least was pleasant about it.  Pick a Barry scandal.  His and his administrations general follow up is: "Yeah, so what?"  Guns to Mexico: Yeah, so what?

Birth certificate forgery: Yeah, so what?

Drones, NSA, lack of budgets, Bengazi, etc.: Yeah, so what?

He is a different poster boy. If you are right and he is just a link in the chain, he heralds something truly horrific coming soon. 

 


Sat, 04/19/2014 - 12:18 | 4675581 U4 eee aaa
U4 eee aaa's picture

" If you are right and he is just a link in the chain, he heralds something truly horrific coming soon. "

Yep. He is just a mercenary. He is there to get rich and famous. Just wait until someone truly evil takes over the office and starts using the tools that all his predecessors have put in place. It won't be pretty

Sun, 04/20/2014 - 23:09 | 4678570 Pickleton
Pickleton's picture

Just wait until someone truly evil takes over

I think Hillary Clinton is the name you're searching for.

 

Sat, 04/19/2014 - 12:25 | 4675595 loonyleft
loonyleft's picture

There are many people who would say the exact same thing about Bush. 

Barry has a particularly disgusting way of rubbing our noses in his shit piles that I find repulsive. 

This is a personal statement about feelings and I can tell you about HALF of the US voters felt the same way about Bush, just as about HALF the current US voters feel about Barry. 

I am sorry you cannot put aside your personal feelings to look at the big picture. It's true, America has a long way to go as long as they can keep the left right paradigm going. 

They couldn't have chosen a better candidate than Barry. He's done more for them than Bush ever could, and you've fallen for it. 

Sat, 04/19/2014 - 15:28 | 4675877 BlindMonkey
BlindMonkey's picture

Ok.  Did I not sufficiently cover GWB was evil?  There I said it, GWB sucks.  Let's move on now. 

These are all personal opinions.  Big picture the country is fucked, regardless of the puppet at the helm. I can still excoriate the helmsman for driving us into the ditch.

 

I don't give a single flying fucking what 50% of American voters think. George Carlin said it best. Imagine how fucking stupid the average American is and imagine half are dumber than that. 

http://m.youtube.com/?#/watch?v=8rh6qqsmxNs

 

"They couldn't have chosen a better candidate than Barry. He's done more for them than Bush ever could, and you've fallen for it."

 

I have no idea what your point here is. Please restate. 

Sat, 04/19/2014 - 15:27 | 4675882 James T. Kirk
James T. Kirk's picture

Wrong. Bush and Obama are both psychopaths, but Bush gave lip service to supporting American values. Obama, on the other hand, is OPENLY DECONSTRUCTING the very essence and spirit of what this nation was originally intended to be.

Sun, 04/20/2014 - 00:44 | 4676668 MeBizarro
MeBizarro's picture

Exactly what lip service GW Bush pay lip device too? Continue to spend during a time of war? Adopting a completely phony 'cowboy' persona including buying and selling his ranch in Crawford right before and right after he ran for president?

Sat, 04/19/2014 - 13:12 | 4675691 lakecity55
lakecity55's picture

+1.

He has no documentation, is not an American by culture and not a US Citizen, as he admits his 'father' was an African under British Rule.

He is, also, a Muslim by birth, since his 'father' was a muslim, and their faith is passed from the father to the children.

That is why he was placed in power; he will have no compunction against the destruction of a country he holds no allegiance to, and holds, by his own words, in contempt.

Sat, 04/19/2014 - 11:23 | 4675458 U4 eee aaa
U4 eee aaa's picture

I know the feeling. I started saying that when the conservative 'savior' Bush (II) got elected

Sat, 04/19/2014 - 11:55 | 4675538 Everybodys All ...
Everybodys All American's picture

Take the Obama Biden sticker off your car first and admit you voted for this man twice before you start telling everyone how it's the system.

Sat, 04/19/2014 - 12:26 | 4675601 loonyleft
loonyleft's picture

I'm Canadian, and may or may not have voted for Obama :)

Sat, 04/19/2014 - 13:09 | 4675684 Christophe2
Christophe2's picture

Will you vote for Trudeau's Hope And Change?  One of the more depressing things in Canadia is how people there think their country is significantly better or different than the United States, when in fact it is the same pedophile mind-raped elites (illuminati, etc.) offering only a slightly different window dressing...

Sat, 04/19/2014 - 14:22 | 4675806 loonyleft
loonyleft's picture

I don't think Canada is a better country, however I do think that I have a much better reading and comprehension than you. 

I wasn't comparing Canada to the US, but if your patriotism gets you going, have at er. 

Reread the posts. What I was saying is that I myself have given up on the left right paradigm, therefore, I wouldn't vote for Trudeau's hope and change any more than I would vote for Harper. I don't buy into the left right paradigm.  

Glad to see you not only subscribe to the left right paradigm, but also the I'm a Murkin, cause I was born here, and that makes me different, patriot bullshit. You probably have a favourite sports team of players who play for 'your team' so you can cheer them on and be happy when 'you win'. 

Your next post should be something like. 'mind your own business canuck', or 'if you don't live here, you don't know' 

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