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Martin Armstrong Asks "Will We Have Another 'Waco' In Nevada?"
The Feds are gathering and have brought in hired guns. We are more likely than not headed into a military confrontation – the first since Waco. Keep in mind that Obama’s head of the Justice Department, Eric Holder now Attorney General, called the shots on Waco back then. He got away with it before – why not again?
There is a hope that if enough people show up the Feds will stand-down.
The likelihood of the Feds ever backing down is highly unlikely.
The Federal Government is severely disconnected from the people and views anyone who stands up to them as a criminal and domestic terrorist.
This is merely a dress rehearsal for the next 5 years that we face – a rising confrontation between the people and the government.
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http://www.nevadacattlemen.org/CMDocs/NevadaCattlemen/NCA%20Post%20Gathe...
The Nevada Cattlemen have the best take. Can we go after Al Sharpton who owes more than Bundy?
The Nevada Cattlemen's Association believes that private
property rights are at the foundation of our country and our liberty, and we know that the rule of
law protects those property rights. Our policy supports private property interests that exist on
public lands, including water rights and grazing rights. We also support the continued multiple use
of public lands, as authorized by law and confirmed by the courts. It is under this framework of
the rule of law that our property rights and multiple uses are protected.
The multiple-use statutes allow timber, grazing, wildlife, recreation and other uses to carry
on side-by-side in a way that, as the statute reads “will best meet the needs of the American
people.” Increasingly, we see the federal government placing higher priority on uses other than
grazing. This not only violates the multiple-use statutes, it violates the grazing and water rights
that are also protected by laws such as the Taylor Grazing Act (TGA). Under the TGA, ranchers
have a right to graze livestock on federal lands based on historical utilization. While this property
interest is complex by nature--given that it exists on surfaces owned by the federal government—
it is nonetheless a real property interest that is taxed and saleable. It must be protected. On the
same token, ranchers who exercise their grazing rights are obligated to pay a grazing fee as
established by law.
Ranchers such as Mr. Bundy have found themselves with their backs against the wall as,
increasingly, federal regulations have infringed on their public land grazing rights and the
multiple use management principle. This is not only devastating to individual ranching families; it
is also causing rural communities in the west to whither on the vine. In the west, one in every two
acres is owned by the federal government. Therefore, the integrity of the laws protecting
productive multiple use is paramount to the communities that exist there.
The situation in Nevada stands as an example the federal agencies’ steady trend toward
elevating environmental and wildlife issues over livestock grazing – in violation of the
abovementioned laws and principles. Well-intentioned laws such as the Endangered Species
Act—which are factors in Mr. Bundy’s case--are being implemented in a way that are damaging
to our rights and to our western families and communities. In Bundy’s case the designation of his
grazing area as a critical habitat for the endangered desert tortoise gave the BLM the rationale
P.O. Box 310 • 285 10th Street
Elko,NV 89801
Office :: 775.738.9214
Fax :: 775.738.5208
http://www.nevadacattlemen.org/
News Release
They needed to order a 500% decrease in his cattle numbers. There never was any scientific proof
that cattle had historically harmed the desert tortoise.
However, in accordance with the rule of law, we must use the system set forth in our
Constitution to change those laws and regulations. Nevada Cattlemen's Association does not
condone actions that are outside the law in which citizens take the law into their own hands.
Nevada Cattlemen’s Association (NCA) works hard to change regulations detrimental to
the sound management of public lands in a lawful manner and supports the concept of multiple
uses on federally managed lands and encourages members of the livestock industry to abide by
regulations governing federal lands.
Furthermore, Nevada Cattlemen’s Association supports effective range management
through collaboration with resource management agencies and interested parties to achieve
rangeland management goals for economically viable ranch operations and the conservation of
wildlife species.
With the above stated this case was reviewed by a federal judge and a decision was
rendered to remove the cattle. Nevada Cattlemen’s Association does not feel it is our place to
interfere in the process of adjudication in this matter. Additionally, NCA believes the matter is
between Mr. Bundy and the Federal Courts.
We regret that this entire situation was not avoided through more local government
involvement and better implementation of federal regulations, laws, and court decisions. While we
cannot advocate operating outside the law to solve problems, we also sympathize with Mr.
Bundy’s dilemma. With good faith negotiations from both sides, we believe a result can be
achieved which recognizes the balance that must be struck between private property rights and
resource sustainability.
...We citizens of Western Canada have growing concerns. If WW3 breaks out, the USSA will definitely annex Western Canada, (British Columbia, Alberta, Saskatchewan & Manitoba), in the name of "Security of the American Homeland" to defend Russian and Chinese attack. Western Canada own a plethora of Natural Resources, but only 12.5 million citizens.
I'm heading to Nevada for a big circle jerk, anybody want to come?
Mirage or MGM ?
5 years? God damnit. I cant wait that long.
I hope same number of people will stand up for Bundy's as stood for Iraqi, Afghan and Pakistani innocent people.
Karma is a bitch
The Empire likes to raid and withdraw before the situation escalates. They view the fiasco in Nevada as a failure to execute quickly. They will get better at Blitzkrieg-type raids. The Militias will need to have excellent inside intel and be able to assemble at a moments notice.
You're right.
Not everybody who assembled in Lexington and Concord were the renowned Minutemen. Those guys were a special group. Wish I were 30 years younger now.
< Grass fed beef
< Grass fed tortoise
What do you want on your plate?
Libtards especially, but all Statists have been criticizing and demonizing Bundy over fines/fees. Never once have I heard a libtard or other Statist criticize the government for their blatant misuse of power in this situation. They also don't even question the authority of government to levy fines/fees. These people are fucked in the head.
Goebbels never criticized Hitler and believed Hitler had unlimited authority to do whatever he wanted.
MSM is the new Goebbels. Simple as that.
MSM is proof large numbers of people have no conscience and will adopt whatever loyalty their career and paycheck requires.
Same can be said for those BLM agents rounding up those cattle, the other federal agents involved, the local sheriff dept, the local police, and the various hired guns.
95% of Americans would do the same thing, be totally loyal to the govt if their career and paycheck required it.
Hell, 90% are totally loyal to the govt without their career and paycheck requiring it.
And that's why America isn't worth saving.
It isn't going to be your choice. The answer is, Soylent Green.
Where is Lon Horiuchi??????????????????????? Eric Holder wasn't the only one with dirty hands at Waco, or Ruby Ridge.
No! Fighting is what they want. they are tryng pretty hard to provoke armed conflict with the American people to justify even more of a police state. they do not fear anyone going toe to toe with their sociopath pawns. they only fear zero squads and whistleblowers.
They could easily have had a fight at Bunkerville.
They chose not to do so.
If it's simply about provoking armed conflict ... well, that could be achieved in a matter of hours.
If Bundy is right, then anyone can use BLM land at no cost, and no obligation.
I want his cattle gone so I can use the land for my own purpose, at no cost.
If I was living in America I'd show up. Unfortunatly I live in ENgland and we had our guns taken off us a long time ago.
hows that working out for you?
http://www.reviewjournal.com/news/bundy-blm/bundyfest-could-become-reality
Bundy fest baby, no rules no taxes, no joke, thanks clive
"If Bundy is right, then anyone can use BLM land at no cost, and no obligation."
Explain to me how the BLM and the federal government have a legal claim to land in Nevada. Let me guess, the federal government passed a law giving the federal government ownership of the land. Is that right? Sounds self-serving to me. Statists like you only show up when there is something to be stolen.
"If it's simply about provoking armed conflict ... well, that could be achieved in a matter of hours. "
I said their goal is to provoke a fight to justify more of a police state, which obviously means they have to first be confident they can make enough people believe that they did not provoke the fight.
Yes... provocations and false flags are a dangerous game for them at this juncture. They realize public trust has slipped significantly since the 90's. How couldn't they know? They have us all on record in Utah.
But the provocation has to be handled carefully for public relations purposes. When you're going to slaughter scores of citizens, you first have to complete a few things. From the Waco massacre playbook, you first want to control access to facts so that none of the soon-to-be victims can present their side of the story. You need total blackout so that you can control the narrative. In Waco this was done by unnecessarily surrounding the "compound" and then restricting all access. After the Branch Davidians were shot and burned to death, they mantianed control over the area so that they could run tracked vehicles over the wreckage so that nobody could review the evidence of the military assault on women and children as paybakc for the deaths of their "comrades" killed and injured in the initial unwarranted attack. The government and their media organs then trafficked the narrative of the Branch Davidians as a "doomsday cult" and that they were "suicidal," followed by the repeated charge of child abuse, and children needing to be saved from these religious crazies. This narrative replaced the earlier, lamer, version that they were allegedly making automatic weapons.
In Nevada there were too many loose ends and the narrative got away from them. They will almost certanly be back, but they have to figure out how to create the story that the Bundys had it coming for some heinous crimes. Property crimes are insufficient and petty disputes over land use work against the Feds. But they cannot forgive, and everything to them is a do or die confrontation where they are the good guys. Resistance is self-evident that the opposition deserves the most intense annihilation possible.
Have I missed something? The article makes reference to a five year time frame; can anyone elaborate?
As the economy continues to collapse it's only going to get worse nationwide; police state versus citizens.
This is why every .gov agency has bought billions of rounds of ammunition, and why posse comitatus is dead.
I hope Bundy is the straw that awakens a sleeping giant!
I am getting reports from people who were there, and from those that are still there. This will not go away. Bundy may be yet another sacrificial lamb, but a few more Wacos and a certain part of the people will wake up.
Y'all keep your heads down and your powder dry.
Comparing this honest rancher with David Koresh is insulting. He was a douchebag kid fucker. Find another analogy.
So what you're saying is Koresh was imitating he beltway, no?
Koresh raped children. He was never arrested for it because the kids would never speak against him due to pressure from their parents. The governments actions were wrong. But so is ass rapping little children. I feel for the children whose parents took up with that nut Koresh.
Oh Migra, I guess you were there to watch the ass raping of children?
I don't believe in God, but I believe in your right to believe in God.
Either go watch "The Rules of Enagement" or CNN.
But either way, shut the fuck up about shit you you have no idea about apart from that which you were spoonfed
Honest question; are we sure about that? If so why wasn't he taken on his frequent trips to town or his daily runs?
Local Sheriff investigated Koresh several times about the underage sex charges, never once arrested him for it. Plus, if pedophilia should be punished by burning down churches filled with innocent people, there are hundreds of Catholic Churches which need to be torched.
You should start here, with the lawyer who got all the (very few) surviving Branch Davidians acquitted when they were vehemently prosecuted after the massacre. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_DeGuerin
This lawyer's Congressional testimony should be mandatory viewing. Of course no punishment was ever delivered to the Feds who orchestrated the massacre.
The evidence suggests that the Koresh as pedophile meme originated in the Reno Justice Department to justify the overwhelming force approach adopted by the Feds on the ground. That claim appeared after the initial assault was a debacle. Previously the story was only that of ATF going after alleged automatic weapons.
Notwithstanding Koresh's sexual activities, was the remedy of immolating and crushing 76 mostly women and children hiding ina buried school bus the way to prevent these kids from being molested? A list of the dead is here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waco_siege
His character assasination is already underway in the MSM.
MSN.com headline today "Bundy's shocking comments on slavery":
http://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/gop-scrambles-condemn-ranchers-remarks-race-n88556
"GOP scrambling to distance themselves from defiant Nevada Rancher..."
Harry Reid already called he and his supporters "Domestic Terrorists".
Not enough giants left, we have crossed the Rubicon.
The endless lies about what really happened with the Ukraine are beyond sickening. I stopped watching Tv a long time ago but the crap MSM news on the net is sickening. Making Putin into Hitler and endless crap. Bundy is getting the same treatment and lies.
"sleeping giant" is a myth. There is no such thing.
""sleeping giant" is a myth. There is no such thing."
...said some dipshit in DC, as Tim McVeigh rolledup up to the Murrah building in a yellow Ryder truck.
Good god what mind boggling stupidity.
There ya go folks, another loony tunes "patriot" thinking TM and a Ryder truck anfo bomb brought down that building ...and killing 168 children was some sort of "patriot" victory.
With this kind of mind boggling stupidity displayed by "patriots", govt has nothing to worry about.
Why not. Good question
"The Player's with Yourselves Club!"
http://snltranscripts.jt.org/90/90gsavalas.phtml
Circus, Circus seems most appropriate -- given the situation.
The right-wing really messed up with making Bundy their hero. Mr. "let me tell you about the Negro" Bundy.
You guys really stepped in it this time.
Christ what a setup
Al Sharpton shouldn't have to pay taxes. It'd be rayciss to tax a good man like that!
That Sharp Ton. He one heavy weight...
Have he and Don King ever been seen together?
R we talking about AL THE RAT SharpTongue????
Cliven Bundy perfectly described the intentional, designed, and enforced transition from compelled slavery of a sub group of human beings to 'voluntary' or slavery by trickery of all human beings. Central in this is the redefinition of a 'person', the 14th amendment, and multiple contrived nation bankruptcies used as false justification.
Clear articulation that no one was 'freed', only further enslaved by different methods is crisp and clearly articulated by Cliven.
To say otherwise is to remove all doubt that you are a useful idiot or a troll cultivating race conflict.
To you sir, piss off!
Brilliant. Whoever downvoted that is pissed off :-)
Very well said...
ori
In other words,..
The slaves were never emancipated.
The rest of us were enslaved along side them.
P.S. most of the slaves pre 1750 were actually Irish
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31E1gHowYcA
Stefan Molyneux is the smartest man on the internet.
smartest man on the Cinder.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAST139RPCo
Slave uprisings end with 6000 crosses along the Appian Way starring Cliven Bundy in the title role. Also starring Eric Holder as Crassus and Harry Reid playing Pompey. Are we ready for this?
Question is, are they? Im surprised no one has tugged on Reid's leash, a blind guy could see the powder keg this situation is. Between this and Ukraine it almost seems like the federal government is hell bent on destroying itself. We can only hope right?
What's the use of being a big fish in Washington if you can't use it to enrich yourself and your family with side deals? Over confidence and belief in your omnipotence are part of hubris, and you know what pride goeth before.
Up yours and your Political correctness...
I knew Bundy was insane when he demanded BLM turn over their weapons along with releasing the cattle.
Yep, idiot "patriots" picked a right wing nutcase for their latest hero.
Maybe because "patriots" are idiots too, like thinking they'll win the next govt confrontation and save Bundy's ranch, neither of which will happen.
I love how government trolls like you try to disrupt sites like ZH with nonsensical comments.
Sure, makes a lot of sense to visit a website & repeatedly post comments that are completely opposite of main themes of that website. Differing opinions are one thing and are welcomed. Your comments are not of the latter type.
believe it or not, not everyone with a dissenting opinion is on the CIA payroll. crazy, i know.
fonestar hates those guys too.
I , for one, am getting damn confused with you getting up votes. Can you please return to your patented bitcoin thread hijacks?
Please no, the comments have been on topic for at least a month now and its been amazing.
the downvotes reflected poorly on his performance report, and the login info was passed to another infiltration recruit.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/04/24/cliven-bundy-racist_n_5204821.htm
Tyler, even though you are attributing this to Martin Armstrong, how about a link to prove Eric Holder called the shots.
This is the first time I've seen that in print on this blog and would like verification, maybe others would too.
I've read many hints to this actuality but have never seen any real proof.
DaddyO
Google it, asshole.
All I can find is that in 1993 he was appointed by President Clinton to be U.S. Attorney for the District of Columbia. Apparently one of his first assignments was involvement in investigating the Dan Rostenkowski scandal....nowhere near TX.
Hey, lest anyone doubt, I don't like the S.O.B., but let's stick to the verifiable facts, please.
Holder's obscure Waco involvement
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/daily/sept99/waco15.htm
Good article, so...to sum up; Holder transfered the Waco investigation from the Western TX District to the Eastern TX District because the Western District's handling of the affair was going under a Senate investigation headed by Sen. Danforth. I'm not seeing the big problem there.
Apparently, Holder's first appointment to the bench was by Ronald Reagan....must have happened right before nap time.
Holder transfered the Waco investigation from the Western TX District to the Eastern TX District because the Western District's handling of the affair was going under a Senate investigation headed by Sen. Danforth.
That seems like a big deal to me. Of course it is the one of the methods that Holder uses to continue to SUBVERT THE LAW to this very day...
Of course you may choose to have Holder continue to subvert the Civil Rights of American citizens. You are free to be complicit.
But that does not mean that it is lawful or correct.
I guess fightingthepower causes one to have sudden outbursts of stupidity.
Read my post dummy, I have googled it and never come up with any real proof of his direct involvement.
The WaPo article doesn't give direct proof of orders being given by Holder to torch the place.
If you're going say that Holder did X or Y, then pony up the proof.
BTW, no one on this board has as much disdain for Eric Holder then me.
He is the most lawless AG in the history of the USSA.
DaddyO
stars of wco were billy bob and janet r, the dead lee duo...
Exactly!
Janet Reno gave the order to light'em up!
DaddyO
From what I recall from watching the Congressional hearings, numbskull Reno was easily manipulated by the gung-ho flatfoots over at the FBI who appeared to introduce the meme of child abuse to Reno to get her to stand down and leave it up their wonderful (hysterical) decision making team. After all they had payback to enact against the Branch Davidians who had killed some agents in the initial assault. That humiliation would not stand.
Recall this was an easy play on the cognitively disabled Janet Reno who had made her bones in Florida using coached "recovered memories" from children to wrongly prosecute the Bucky child care people, later proved innocent after being destroyed by Reno's witch hunting. She fell for it immediately and the Feds on the ground got their revenge on the (mostly) women and children hiding in the "compound." Clinton,, much like his protege Obama, was wholly unaware of anything and could not be accountable.
Google prozac.
Fuck yea, no other choice.
Feed the Beast.
Hemorrhoid.
Fifty-four forty or fight.
that's what y3maxx is worried about
Yah. This is what happens when the board, and history, leaves you behind.
already predicted years ago
fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Timeline
Funny. I live in Palm Springs and thought Western Canada annexed us.
The slow birds will be packing and going home next month.
Damn, sorry to say markar, but I don't miss the desert at all.
Tell it to the Queen
Living near the border with Canada, if there is a US annexation of western Canada, the Canadians will most likely lay down and capitulate to protect their cross border shopping trips and medical appointments into the lower 48.
ugmug
Not that this will be a ray of hope, but some of us have Loyalist gggg grandfathers and grandmothers...
Cows fart and must be eradicated to save the earth...so do deer, elk,....?
If a deer farts in the woods and there is a camera to record it - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6fWBXkCMHA
Sorry, couldn't resist.
good god man, that deer went all out
award winner
What about Mother-in-Laws? Surely they contribute?
What's the definition of mixed emotions? Watching your Mother-in-Law back over a cliff in your new Mercedes...
Correct, if the fed's want to go after people who owe fees and taxes, then go after all the motherfuckers who owe monies...
But I digress, we all know the answer to the somewhat rhetorical question...
All animals are created equal, it's just that some animals are "more equal" than others...
hedge accordingly.
True. Someone ought to point out to the "created equal" crowd that...
"Being created equal does not mean the remain equal". IOW: You were given some gifts and abilities (like and investment). What you DO with them, determines if you remain "equal", or become superior or inferior to the rest.
No Fate, no gods (big daddy in the sky/spaceship). Just Darwinism: We make our own fate, and that of those around us.
Natural Law, a world created by God but administered by dickheads... Anyone on this side of the dirt should take heed and be aware!
Being created equal just means that we all have the same (equal) rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. We are all equal under the law. Justice is blind. etc. It does not mean that we should have equal stuff.
Bullshit. Define "law" and ask yourself is John Corzine in prison yet?
Please, if you can buy the right people, the "law" can be whatever the fuck you want it to be, that's the fucking problem.
hedge accordingly.
I thought that Kirk prided himself on how humans had overcome their animal, Darwinistic tendencies.
Darwin is a disporoven, manipulative/manipulated dolt who basically published his grandfather's work anyways.
He gave predatory capitalismit's raison d'etre for existence.
Eat or be eaten, survival of the fittest etc.
ori
"Disproven"?
Really ORI?
I am truly disappointed.
Read, "The Mysterious Orgins of Hybrid Man". Darwinism is toast.
and the recommended reading list for the Zero Hedge Book Club rages on!
last night i watched All Is Quite On The Western Front(1930), as was recommended a few threads ago.
great movie. its no "Coming Home In A Body Bag", but still a great movie. what i find amazing is that they knew war was for the benefit of the wealthy, even way back then. in 8 years Hitler would be named Time Magazine's "Man Of The Year", and the process would be underway yet again.
Patriotism, seasoned with training. Baked in mud, 300 degrees of hunger, in pot-of-fear. This recipe produces not bread, but the Charred Crusts of War.
With all the Feral workers that owe back taxes in the billions and some getting bonuses despite this fact (no armed assault evident on these Feral workers) , it's not to much of a stretch to say that someone (Reid) wants Bundy's land. Look at mapquest or some other mapping site. The intersection at I-15 and 170 near Bunkerville has a spiffy, expensive interchange with no truck stops, gas stations or anything. 170 is a business loop with no businesses and just Bundy's ranch.
+1 You're getting to the heart of the matter.
You must have missed the investigative reporting. Reid wants to sell the land to a Chinese Company to build a Solar power plant; and of course, he "wants" this, because they are going to piece him off; classic Reid crookedness; he's been at it for decades.
LOL
Reid, excuse me, the BLM, is selling Feral land to the Chinese at 10 cents on the dollar for that project. After all, we do "owe" them (heh). Bundy's land is private but in the way of Mesquite's, Bunkerville's and Reid's agenda.
Q: Why don't they just buy him out and waive his back grazing fees (if he actually owes any)?
A: Easier to steal it when you are backed by various high level Feral agencies and others.
The government can start with it's own house:
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-04-22/wtf-headline-day-tax-cheating-i...
They could go after the IRS employees who owe taxes -- and oh btw - you can return your bonus, too.
IRS AGENTS WHO OWE GIVEN BONUSES, yes it requires caps...
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2014/04/22/irs-bonuses-emplo...
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=al+sharpton+owes+millions+in+back+taxes
These two first, then Bundy who actually produces something, can be fairly negotiated with instead of dictated too, you know like a fee man..
Corzine, hello...Corzine??
Despite non-payment of federal taxes you can STILL get a bonus and time-off (if you work for the IRS!)
THINK!
http://www.warpaths2peacepipes.com/history-of-native-americans/history-o...
History Timeline of the Nevada Indians
The history and the way of life of Nevada Indians was profoundly affected by newcomers to the area. The indigenous people had occupied the land thousands of years before the first European explorers arrived. The Europeans brought with them new ideas, customs, religions, weapons, transport (the horse and the wheel), livestock (cattle and sheep) and disease which profoundly affected the history of the Native Indians. For a comprehensive History timeline regarding the early settlers and colonists refer to the Colonial America Time Period. The history of the State and of its Native American Indians is detailed in a simple History Timeline. This Nevada Indian History Timeline provides a list detailing dates of conflicts, wars and battles involving Nevada Indians and their history. We have also detailed major events in US history which impacted the history of the Nevada Indians. Nevada is a state of the western United States the traditional homelands of the Pawnee and Arikara tribes. Other early tribes included the Omaha, Ponca, Oto-Missouria, Ioway, and Kansa. The Apache, Lakota, Crow, Kiowa, Cheyenne, and Arapahoe inhabited West Nebraska.
https://www.google.com/search?q=Indian+Tribes+of+Nevada&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-...
and the moral of the story is: Do Not Lose.
Yes, there are some serious issues with DENIAL with that statement. Go ahead and check the mentality that backs that statement. This is a question: "What do you call a coward with a gun?"
dangerous. Because he's apt to use it out of emotional impulse without any reason or morals involved.
Can you trust the Government? Sure you can; ask any Indian.
Yeah THINK! Pre-Clovis was probably European(Solutrean), and Clovis is showing Siberian-European lineage.
http://www.spiegel.de/international/dna-analysis-shows-native-americans-...
http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/radical-theory-of-...
http://www.ucpress.edu/book.php?isbn=9780520275782
http://anthropology.si.edu/staff/Stanford/Stanford.html
http://www.primtech.net/
Nobody has a "right" to graze on public land, it's a privilege they pay for. The price of which is about $1.35 per AUM (animal unit month = cow or a cow w/calf). You probably couldn't feed a hamster for $1.35 per month.
There's a huge body of solid research that shows the negative effects of cattle grazing in the arid west. I would argue that cattle grazing below 4000' elevation in the southwest and fire suppression throughout the west have been the two most damaging actions perpetrated on our public lands.
People of the US all have an equal interest in managment of public lands. Some little old lady in NH has just as much say about how public lands are managed as Clive Bundy. These public lands in their relatively intact form are essential for the perpetuation of populations of large wide-ranging native wildlife like elk, mule deer and antelope.
I was born and raised on the public lands in the west and vehemently dislike the BLM, their shuffle butt bureaucracy and incompetent tacts but I also recognize Clive Bundy and his supporters as essentially public land anarchists and thieves.
Thank you for a well thought out post. Prepare for the onslaught of the mindless non-the-less.
so far, just silent-votes. . .
I prefer Fight Club to voter-mind-sets, but
you can't always get what you want. . .
"THINK!"
Don't you belong over at HuffPo or some such mindless fascist site?
You say anarchist like it's a bad thing. BTW, Bundy's family bought the grazing and water rights to that land decades before the BLM even existed. It was the BLM who changed the deal. Do a little research.
You should do more research before trotting out tired vegan nonsense -
http://www.ted.com/talks/allan_savory_how_to_green_the_world_s_deserts_and_reverse_climate_change
In many regions, pastoralism and communal land use are blamed for environmental degradation caused byovergrazing. After years of research and experience, Savory came to understand this assertion was often wrong, and that sometimes removing animals actually made it worse.[2] This concept is a variation of the trophic cascade, where humans are seen as the top level predator and the cascade follows from there.
Savory developed a flexible management system designed to improve grazing systems. Holistic planned grazing is one of a number of newer grazing management systems that more closely simulate the behavior of natural herds of wildlife and have been shown to improve riparian habitats and water quality over systems that often led to land degradation, and be an effective tool to improve range condition for both livestock and wildlife.[2][13][14][15][16][17][18][19] Holistic planned grazing is similar to rotational grazing but differs in that it more explicitly recognizes and provides a framework for adapting to four basic ecosystem processes: the water cycle,[17] the mineral cycle including the carbon cycle,[20][21][22][23] energy flow, and community dynamics (the relationship between organisms in an ecosystem)[24]as equal in importance to livestock production and social welfare. Holistic management has been likened to "a permaculture approach to rangeland management".[25]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holistic_management_(agriculture)
Savory's ideas are based on African plant communities and fauna, I was talking about western North America, different systems entirely. African flora and fauna as we see them now are much older systems (100,000+years) than what we see North America .
Cow-like species went extinct in the lower elevations of the west about 12,000 years ago mostly because of the rapid change to a hotter and dryer climate. Plant communities continued to evolve without cow-like and horse herbivory so they are poorly adapted to withstand those impacts. All you have to do is look at pictures taken in the 1870's and pics of the same places now to see the damage.
Believe me, I'm not a vegan!
Decon,...You are missing the connection between rabbits, elk, deer, buffalo and bovines my friend. I do not know what drives your beef (pun intended), but your facts are lacking.
That seems a little off if you ask me...isn't a buffalo sort of a cow like ruminant? I have heard there were many millions of those, indeed entire human cultures developed in dependency thereupon. Also, I didin't hear anything about the indigenous human cultures altering the environment to grasslands to support the herds of cow like ruminants. If there is something wrong with a huge docile domesticated creature that turns unuseable grass into life sustaining beef and dairy, I'm afraid I don't see it.
Buffalo aka cow-like species were extirpated from the southwest below 4000' elevation about 12,000 years ago.
http://www.johnsoncitypress.com/article/107227
Really? Citation please.
""There's a huge body of solid research that shows the negative effects of cattle grazing in the arid west."
Forget the west, try the entire planet. Cows are a walking ecological disaster, everyone except ranchers and everything except certain varieties of bovine gut flora would be better off if their population fell by 95% over the next decade. But that is not Mr. Bundy's fault.
"People of the US all have an equal interest in managment of public lands. Some little old lady in NH has just as much say about how public lands are managed as Clive Bundy"
Therein lies the problem.
I vehemently oppose federal or state ownership of any land whatsoever, as well as public ownership of land in general. There is no easy solution to distributing ownership of land so as to maximize utility while minimizing harm, but I am damn sure the federal government isn't doing that and like all governments, is both theoretically and practically incapable of ever doing it. If it absolutely has to be publicly held, land should be held as locally as possible by those people with the strongest and most direct connections to it. No absentee landlords.
I tend to agree with you, the feds sure have fucked it up. Local management scares me also. I've seen how the state has managed their lands and it's actually similar if not worse than the feds. I'm not sure what form of local management would work but keeping these lands unfragmented and healthy is critical.
It has to do with how you raise cows. If you don't know anything about cattle, why do you comment?
It's not "public Land"; that's a farce. The Supreme Court decided in 1845 that the Federal Govt. couldn't grant Statehood, (sovereignty), to Nevada and claim to own land there at the same time; this was never resolved. But the decision stands in the record. The Feds. have no business there. And your "opinion" about cattle ruining land, somehow, is just that, your opinion; worth nothing.
You point out that the federal government charges a fee to graze on BLM land and accept the fact that an ex-post-facto regulation was enforced against Mr. Bundy's grazing rights (yes, rights passed from generation to generation). Those grazing rights that were issued by the federal government in the 1860’s, before any BLM. Accepting a federal court decision that is presiding over a case involving a federal agency, regarding the use of lands within a sovereign state - without any state representation, is accepting a conflict of interest on behalf of the federal government. Let’s get some daylight on the issue of the validity of the federal court in this matter before jumping to any conclusions. Just because a government body said it was legal doesn’t mean that it is moral or even constitutional. In the Bundy case the BLM, which is a management agency, showed up with armed agents and set up first amendment zones. The mandate for federal action in a civil suit is to use local law enforcement to the maximum extent. Armed federal management personnel? First Amendment zones?
Your insinuation that an old lady in New Hampshire has as much say as to use is over-simplified and ridiculous. There are stake holders that have more say in every issue that involves the public use of federal land. Does Mr. Bundy have an equal say in whether a public park in NH gets new curbs and gutters or new picnic tables? No, it is the local stake holder. In any case the new normal states that the appointed federal agency dictates “appropriate” public use, if any, unless you are a senator. Doesn't that bother you?
Bundy’s issues with the federal government run deep and bring to a point government over reach, proper “ownership” of state lands, constitutional issues of federal government owning state lands, and suppression of constitutional rights by a fed agency. For you to simply label Mr. Bundy and his supporters as you have is your right, but is also tips your hand as to your own level of understanding constitutional restrictions and your acceptance of your shackles. Enjoy your serfdom.
What about the deal the corrupt fossil withered old fart Reid made with the Chinese for solar on that land?
Apparently not enough people on this blog have read the text on that subject; it's an obvious case of The Feds. supporting one of their own; Senator Reid, and his private paid off scam.
well, lets just help that along.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BosiJdrnbXI
and
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNGJXDuLkdI
this dosent even fall under a catagory of sepculation. some individuals in the comments to these videos have started digging into the people beind the compaines these land aquisitions are being conducted under.
Yes, well, the NCA seems to have failed with their mission. They *should* advocate taking the law into the peoples' hands when all other avenues have been exhausted.
They cant do Waco style assault. Harry Reid, his son and the BLM direcor have their fingerprints all over this one.
agree. but distant Bundy family members will start buying nail guns by the dozen
The powers behind the US government are trying pretty hard to provoke armed conflict with the Amercan people to justify even more of a police state.
They won't do a Waco assault on "domestic terrorists" because now they have kill lists and weaponized drones. This is the 21st century after all.
It seems to me that these are two very different scenarios.
Waco was "OK" because it was the community headquarters of a cult. This fact allowed them to be demonized in the eyes of America. It was enough for most people to just let it go.
Bundy is just a good ol' boy trying to make a living. He will need to be futher vilified by being proven a racist or othe such nonsense. UPDATE: unfortunately it seems Bundy has served his bigoted ideals up on a silver platter by opening his big mouth. o_O
However, 1/2 of America thinks the government is getting too big and oppressive and thinks the Federal government has no business "managing" state lands. Harry Reid's business dealings are definitely part of the equation.
Oh, and let's not forget it is pre-midterm election campaign time.
Admittedly, it would only take a single gunshot to touch off a very bloody melee.
@Hugh
I viewed the autopsy photos of the charred, melted, unrecognizable bodies of the children at Waco.
If most people let it go....well....I didn't.
How did you see those?
It's been some years ago but I imagine they're still online.
Just checked they still are. Search Waco Autopsy Photographs. I warn ya....they're graphic as hell.
Thanks. My first search did not find anything, and I was surprised that the government would allow such evidence to be public because they kept the media one mile away the whole time and they quickly destroyed all the evidence after they murdered the cult members.
Here's a good documentary on the incident.
WACO Rules of Engagement
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4scgRAJxWc
New York Times dude. This news organization grows sloppier and more unreliable with each passing week. Chances are better than even (much better) that those quotes are innacurate or flat out made up.
those Bundy quotes are pretty "wow" inducing. . . hardly surprising the NYT gave him such word-space.
and hardly surprising to see "Mr. Paul" weighing in with a book and a tilt at the Repub nomination - though,
is a wry grin, heh.
"cowboys" vs. a black prezzydent - damn! ya couldn't make this shit up. . .
BLM director Kornze also a Reid protege.
I was perusing the blogosphere the other day and someone was waxing poetically about how much tranquility there was under Bill Clinton.
History books must be missing Ruby Ridge, Waco, 1993 World Trade Center bombing,...
Don't forget the Atlanta Olympic bombing that got pinned on the wrong guy...the illegal bombing of Serbia....the Grade A cock-up in Mogadishu...
As a result of that illegal fiasco in Somalia during Clinton, Minneapolis ended up becoming Mogadishu West, courtesy of a bunch of religious do-gooders.