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Ukraine Warns Putin "We Will Eliminate Invaders" After Pro-Russian Forces Down Ukraine Chopper
UPDATE: Ukraine Says Provocations Possible Over May 1-9 Holidays
The fighting-talk (and actions) is growing louder from Eastern Europe. Following Lavrov's "bloody justice" comments, Ukraine's Acting Head of the Presidential Administration Serhiy Pashynskyi expects a Russian invasion is imminent, warnings that "in case Russian troops cross the Ukrainian border we will qualify it as military invasion and eliminate invaders."
These strongly worded comments come after a Ukrainian military helicopter exploded at a base near the eastern town of Kramatorsk (held by pro-Russian forces) on Friday after being hit by a rocket-propelled grenade.
Pashynskyi concludes, rather ominously, "I would not recommend Mr. Putin experiment with lives of his servicemen."
A Ukrainian military helicopter exploded at a base near the eastern town of Kramatorsk on Friday after being hit by a rocket-propelled grenade, officials in Kiev said.
The Mi-8 helicopter was struck as it was on the tarmac of the base's landing zone. Its pilot managed to escape but was wounded, they said.
The nearby town of Kramatorsk is one of several under the control of pro-Kremlin gunmen.
+++++++++++++++
Acting Head of the Presidential Administration Serhiy Pashynskyi does not exclude the invasion of Russian troops on the territory of Ukraine at any time but Ukrainian servicemen are ready for that. It was stated by him in the course of the briefing.
"Unfortunately, it can happen at any time. In case Russian troops cross the Ukrainian border we will qualify it as military invasion and eliminate invaders," he said. He emphasized that "any false statements about some humanitarian mission" of the Russian government will not be perceived as an argument by Ukraine.
At the same time, he noted that Ukrainian servicemen are prepared for a possible attack of Russia.
"One and a half months ago our army was in complete ruins. To date, all modest resources of our state were allocated for its modernization and armament. I would not recommend Mr. Putin experiment with lives of his servicemen," S. Pashynskyi noted.
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http://youtu.be/yfAeMtcURg0
Same message, we will clean the country from the dirts and the dirts flew! They are on the move everywhere! They are a snake in the dessert!
So we still don't know if he's fer it or agin it.
And by modernization they pulled some 30 year old MIG 29s out of mothball, and the Ukranian Air Force has 12 ..... wait now 11 combat ready aircraft.
Ukraine should really learn from Poland.
Kamov Down
Given the extremely poor state of the Ukraine Air Force (most aircraft not in flying condition, low maintenance, lack of qualified personnel to maintain equipment), it is highly likely the helicopter on base explosion was due to a mechanical defict on the aircraft rather than an RPG round.
Pilot: But there is fuel leaking out of the helicopter!
Boris: If you are a refusenik and do not protect the glorious neo-facist oligarchic biker gang state then we will take away your $2 dollar paycheck and court martial you in front of firing squad.
Pilot: Let me start it up this very second Boris.
KA BOOM!!
Boris: A revanchist RPG! Does Putin have no shame?
Brilliant: "glorious neo-facist oligarchic biker gang state." Please flog your blog. I would so read it.
New report from RT on the helo explosion:
10:14 GMT:Ukrainian Interior Ministry officials said no causalities have yet been reported and they suspect that militants set off the blasts. However, reports from eyewitnesses contradict the Interior Ministry’s statements, claiming the blast went off while Ukrainian soldiers were loading ammunition onto a helicopter and at least three people died.
http://rt.com/news/eastern-ukraine-army-operation-680/
Anticipate next report will be that the entire Ukrainian Military dissappeared in a puff of smoke as they attempted to load weapons to confront Putin's running dog imperialist cow spittle lackeys who demonstrate no respect whatsoever for Kerryovich or Obamastainiski.
Oh, 61 paperclips and 15 rubberbands and it will be flying again in no time.
Nope, this one's gonna need a couple of feet of duct tape.
Like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbQY4_Noe40 ??
When Ukrainian soldiers ran into some protestors last week, they surrended their vehicles and shuffled back to Kiev with their tails between their legs.
How the hell are they going to react when faced off against one of the most powerful militaries in the world?? lol
The coup-imposed muppets in Kiev can huff and puff all they want about repelling Russian forces.
But if the soldiers themselves don't want any part of the suicide mission they're about to be sent on, it will be over before it even begins.
Baghdad Bob rises again.
Misses point, partly anyway. Ukrainian soldiers sent to fight Russians find themselves confronted by Ukrainian civilians. Surrender to them not driven by fear but rejection of lies they were told.
This shit's all political - and about control of the story. Putin's greatest strength seems to be that he understands this and is giving the politics time and protection to happen.
CIA understands it too. Move of Right Sector to key industrial city Dniepopetrovsk, inside zone of Russian speakers, is like chess move to dominate center of board.
Putin understands chess.
Right Sector strategy will as usual be intimidation including murder, lies and provocations. They will try to force Russian moves that will let them redefine struggle as Ukraine people vs Russian invaders.
Best counter move for Putin: quietly provide whatever support anti-fascist, pro-russian civilians, parties, unions and militia need to stand up to fascists and neutralize them or drive them out, while loudly exposing and denouncing the Right Sector activities.
CIA's problem is their side's real politics won't stand up to the light of day. Works best crawling around under rocks.
What could force Putin's hand and provoke actual invasion? Ukraine armed forces successfully acting to enforce will of the putchists against the people in East Ukraine.
What would force Putin to back down in a district? Local people aligning with the putschists, and turning on separatists, or just going silent and passive.
They lack moral high ground. The ukraine military may have morale problems because this comes off the heels of an ugly political coup. Yanu was illegally impeached because he backed out of a deal with the eu in favor of one with putin. The move was surprising and came after years of plotting on the part of u.s./eu. The west was furious over the development and may have tried to hide that fact, but showed their hand by being WAY too quick to approve of rada's illegal takeover and WAY to quick in condemning crimea's liberation from ukraine. The ukraine parliament is probably bought off at this point, lulled by the soft crooning of the imf and unlimited loans. So what, and more importantly, who are the ukrainian soldiers fighting for here? Rada's kiss-ass-to-the-u.s./eu govt? The situation hasnt had enough time to sink in yet and theyre probably confused.
What unlimited loans? The loans they took out with the IMF were very limited and on desasterous terms, variously described at the time as 'suicidal'. They took the only loan that they could get which no capacity to even negociate the terms. By the time this is over Greece, Cyprus and Syria are going to look like relative paradise.
It's only non-unlimited (or as they say, limited) until it isn't. The IMF has never been known not to extend the terms of a loan. Greece's terms vary on a regular basis. Sure, Greece failing has greater implications on the EU than Ukraine, but the fact of the matter is that the IMF/Fed/ECB/Basel syndicate will continue to loan money, if for no other reason than locking a nation into perpetual debt servitude and thus ruling by leverage. Remember, it's not their money to begin with. Why would they have a problem loaning it out?
As I understand it the IMF was a part contributor to the loans for Greace, not the provider of all, or even the majority (but I haven't read the details for some time now). In march 2010 the Germans didn't even want the IMF involved, at all, in the first Greek bailout negociation.
I think this is a process of Ukraine slowly realizing it backed the wrong horse and that the cheap gas did not come from Europe. Plus asking a debt-pauper empire for 'freedom' was not going to turn out that well. They should have counted the cost, sucked it up and went with Russia from the beginning.
Very silly people - apparently very deluded.
exactly. The imf just threw a huge loan offer on ukraines lap to the tune of 12 billion. "tell you what guys, dont work out a deal with putin to pay him back, fuck that guy, but heres 12 billion, WE'LL help you out, dont worry about the terms ok? We'll hash it out later". What fucking gall. If ukraine insists on being a bitch for the imf and the west, they deserve the discomfort
What is "Black Hawk down" in Russian? Um, Ukrainian, sorry.
It looks something like this.
£}D´ò·d±½Xö»’¢¢ètIð8¼Ë$f7
£¢ƒ›¹žÀs?Ez{1ä$Ttñb Õ>ú‡w¢…
"If soldier in front of you killed, you pick up weapon and fight"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJ3bzg-Tvt4&feature=player_detailpage#t=18
Yep, took the Russians about 15 million dead soldiers but in the end they won. Germany lost about 3 millions. Never underestimate the will of Slawik people to sacrifice themself.
And that's exactly the difference with our armies. When we lose 1 soldier, the country cries.
When they lose 1000 soldiers, they just say: let's send 2000 more.
I mean, at one point you run out of bullets.
We all know Western Ukraine is no Nazi Germany war machine either. They are going to get squashed like a bug. Most of them don't even want to fight as we have seen by entire units giving up and countless officers refusing orders.
They won't rally to shoot their neighbours, but they could rally to repel Russian forces.
This is the last ditch effor by Kiev to get the country to rally behind them. Not that having a bunch of easterners get killed bothers them, but it will be what is best for the Ukraine. So, I expect RS and Kiev to start a murder and teror campaign, blame in on Russians, provoke the Russians to invade and Ukrainians will then rally around the flag...
Conspiratorial? Yes. But we live in a very dishonest world.
It's a suicide mission ... to gain exactly what ... Entrance into NATO, entrance into the EU, taxes to Brussels, destruction of all remaining economic capability, bank bail-ins, energy supply elimination and a very, very unfriendly continental superpower neighbor that isn't going anywhere?
Lay down your lives so we can become the next Greece, comrade citizen!
And the truly smart Westerner will promptly move to said Slavic nation in an effort to rebuild...repopulate the country.
3 Million is a very low ball estimate and probably the real number was at least 2x, not even counting the millions that died after the war(civilian and POWs), starved to death in the allied (death)concentration camps.
The somewhat offical number for German dead soldiers in WW2 is 3,5 million. Some say 4 million. But that´s on all war theaters, not only at the eastern front against the Russians. OTOH some estimates are even 20 million dead Russian soldiers in WW2. Now, i didn´t count them. But what i wanna say is that the Russians really were ready to sacrifice their countrymen to win that war. And that´s what i have respect for.
Stalin really was ready to sacrifice his countrymen to win that war.
Fixed it for you.
Well, you have a point there, of course. But even if it was the will of a leader, you still need a people that is ready to endure this.
It probably helps knowing if you live you're going back to poverty as opposed to a welfare nanny state.
...the funny thing is that Kerry and Obama think Putin might become 'upset' about them waging economic war against Russia. They do not understand Russians at all. Putin will simply wake up one day, decide he has enough bullshit from Kerry and Obama, and go into Ukraine.
The Ukraines are smart....they now have freeze dryed food storage.
That's one of the benefits of global warming. A planet full of freeze dried GMO veggies hanging from their vines.
Nice comment from the thieves themselves. Its interesting that the people of Ukraine aren't calling the Russians' invaders. except the Nazi regime in power now through the coup.
Exactly. How many hispanics are there in Texas? Even that dumbass Rick Perry is smart enough not to call them "invaders".
and he sounds like he is crapping himself, he would be the first to run for it if Russia decided it had to look after Russian speaking peoples interests in the Ukraine.
So any guesses on how long before the propaganda mills in the west admit that Ukraine just went "hot"?
Shut off the gas Putin, period. You have a trade surplus, make deals with your other neighbors and let the SNAP babies in the west fucking starve.
Wow....you went with the S word....ballsey move!
This is all totally stupid. Russia has plenty of real stuff to sell. If I were Putin I'd say all oil and gas must be paid for with Rubles. Any other currency will be charged an 5% exchange fee.
Fuck'em.
At some point everyone on the fucking dole has to understand that if you don't work, you don't fucking eat.
They have their head so far up TPTB ass, they can't see or
hear anything except peristalsis.
Wish we could eliminate invaders, instead of just watching them flood in to take all the free shit they can get...then claim someone is racist if they say something.
Sorry this is offtopic but I needed to get a second opinion on this: http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/international/business/australi...
How can building new houses (consumption) replace mining exports (income)? Am I so stupid that this doesn't make sense to me?
Dig up Keynes and ask him.
Mate, that's easy!
Mining is a one-time spend. Dig it out, chuck it onto a train, then barge off to China, and poof! it's gone.
Housing, on the other hand, is the gift that keeps on giving. Follow me here:
1. You buy a house, pay the real estate agent, government agent, new curtains, new paint or whatever.
2. You sell the house 6 months later beacuse it is worth 10% more now than when you bought it, and you have to lock in those gains and low interest rates from RBA! So, you pay the real estate agent, government agent, gains tax. But you still gotta live somewhere!
3. See item 1.
Housing is the key to prosperity. Buy with both hands, property never goes down in value. Australia is different, and Sydney/Melbourne is differenter than the rest of Australia!
Oh, wait! I forgot! If you invest your retirement funds in the housing, you will be the shizzit amongst all the rest of boxing kangaroos in your lawn bowls club. So buy often.
Does that help?
P.S. No /sarc here, all of you here on ZH, especially those in USA, should consider sending me a request for my almost free E-Book on how to invest in a booming real estate industry down under, where beer is not Fosters, and chicks look marginally better than sharks.
Sounds easy enough. But I just lost my job at the coal mine and I was going to start saving for a house just after I finished paying off the SS ute, 22ft boat, jet ski, and the 4WD. I'm having to sell all that now and I'll still be in debt. So I'm wondering is there a step before step 1? How do I build a new house if I have n9 money and no job?
Have you got a free ebook? I'm flat out broke.
Haaretz:
Poroshenko, Ukraine's leading presidential candidate visited Israel in secret
Israel has too many interests where Russia holds a piece of the puzzle in, they are not going to piss of the Russians, call it mutual respect, and Putin is just as popular in Israel as in the West. They love a man that acts like a MAN.
Every Western "leader" has to be 1st confirmed by the jooos, and everybody (should) know that.
Musta gone to stick his dick in the wall and wail.
I think the American charm offensive (behind the scenes) is working for the Ukrainians' benefit. What we are seeing here is a slow-rolling escalation that will not benefit Russia in any way. By moving slow, Russia has to make the first overt move, and be declared the Aggressor. By making that aggressive move, the Europeans and Asians will slide in behind the American Charm Offensive and the game will be on.
Things have been festering long enough to gauge global support for Russia. I believe the financial pressures Russia is currently experiencing, along with the obvious capital outflow speaks volumes.
What we have here is a fox set amongst the hens. There will be a lot of cackling, but we have moved past the value of talking. Actions count more.
The world understands Russia's track record of military history/victories. I don't believe Russia has ever experienced victory without the solid support of Britain and/or America. I'm sure there is an internal discussion within Russia about the importance of East Ukraine.
Let's get ready to Rumble...
Are these the same "Asians" that are making trade deals with the Russian for the energy and commodities to keep their economies going or are you talking about some other groups of "Asians" from Mars or something?
The Russian Army hasn't moved past it's borders dumbass. They don't have to do shit (except shut off the fucking gas).
Even today the American/NATO armies remain spread much thinner.
Fucking armchair generals, get your head out of your ass and your ass out of the chair, there's a big world out there.
... So if you have a trade deal with Russia, it means you support Russian foreign policy?
No, you trade with someone because they have commodities, technology, or other real products/assets that you need to keep your economy going dumbass.
The fact that you don't understand that suggests to me that you might be interested in a financial "product" of mass destruction...
Step right up...
If you sign a trade deal right now in the (long) face of pressure from the sec of state, yes. That is exactly what it means.
Actually, no. There are almost certainly airborne and special forces within Eastern Ukraine right now. A lot of the pro-Russian forces we've seen pictures of are way too heavily armed to be locals. They have been seen carrying the latest Russian equipment too. I'm not posting this because I have a problem with it either. Those men are welcomed by the locals, and Western Ukraine wouldn't need to use its military if the Eastern Ukranians were pro-West and pro-coup elected nationalist supporters.
-1 provide some links.
Another one for the fxxking armchair general - dear leader aka the stupid black monkey just went over to Japan and pledged his undying support for their aggression against China. Expecting China to support the US is like expecting the sun to rise from the west.
One of the down arrows was mine.
You should research history a bit. Here is a start: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_Russia
Britain was involved in quite a few wars with Russia/USSR, on both sides. Most often than not, at least according to the source, the British lost, so Russia lost, if with Britain, or won, if against Britain. That's prior to the WWI.
Since then, Russia lost as a result of WWI, even though the Allies won. The article is missing data on invasion of Soviet Russia by Brits and US (Far East) during Russian Civil War, which Soviets won.
WWII is a touchy subject. US/UK claim victory, for if it wasn't for their involvement, USSR would have lost (mind you, having already fought Germany for 3 years and havind drivn them deep into Europe). So your call on that one.
Moving right along, we'll skip Korea/Nam, US certainy did not win those, with USSR getting their way or close.
Afganistan - funny how US/UK are not lised on the "against" side. USSR did lose that one. But so did every other country trying to invade that part of the rock.
Modern Russia - conflict in Georgia is also missing the benevolent involvement by the West.
All in all, Russia has done better against UK/US than with them.
... You keeping thinking that...
I took a look at your Wikipedia link. Russia hasn't won any significant war. They "won" many police actions which resemble Chiraq weekends.
Didn't down arrow you this time. Upped you, actually, for havingthe cahones to respond to criticism.
SO, back to "Russia haven't won any significant wars"..
They defeated Mongols back in some dark Middle Ages. Mongols were THE force for 200 years, having spread their rule to the borders of the Western Europe.
They defeated the Ottoman Empire 10:3 throughout the history. Empire. 'nuf sad. Good hockey score, eh?
They were a part of th Great Northern War in early 18th century, which pretty much shaped European powers as we know them today. Major war, I'd say.
They beat France in early 19th century. Yes, Napoleon had it coming, due to Russian winter and all.
They won the WWII. Without the US/UK/France help they won, they drove enemy back from their territory. I'd score that as a win.
Now comes the fun part of second half of 20th century, full of Chiraq weekend police action. Oh, wait! Other than Desert Storm, there ain't shit the Western forces can claim as a victory (ok, Falklands, maybe). Iraq/Afganistan/Libya/Mali yet to be decided, in my opinion.
So, true, bulk of the wars involving Russia in 1990-2010 were small insignificant conflicts. Chechen wars, very similar in warfare to Chiraq, btw, which Russia won at the end. Georgia war, which Russia won in 5 days, notwithstanding the owherwhelming political support for the tie-eating president Saakashvili from the West. Small potatoes.
I think there is a big, HUGE difference between propaganda and belief. I've been reading your posts here for a couple of years, and this is the first time I felt compelled to write back to you. Wha yo say is belief, but wha it is shaped by looks like propaganda. No offense, but study unedited history, where possible, and think for yourself.
Cheers!
You need to stick your head up above the crowd and see the direction your herd is taking. This won't end well for Russia. It's quaint that Russia defeated the Mongols, et al. Things are different today.
Russia can step into the Eastern Ukraine, and lose most of what they currently hold dear. Do you think the rest of BRIC will step up to the plate and back Russia? I suspect economic deterioration within Russia will have caused a civil war long before the rest of BRIC get off the fence. I think enough time has passed to gauge world opinion. I don't think the rest of the world will back Russia in this exercise.
The Western world needs to be seen as the defender of democratic values. Corruption exists in all goverments but the electorate turn a blind eye to it until it becomes "to much". At that point the rubber band snaps and everyone decides to go medieval. Russia is being played to provide the impetus for the democratic world to go medieval on it.
Russia is being manuevered into a losing strategic position. They will not have a chance, short of blowing up the whole world. I expect a Russian Civil War before that decision-point is reached. Is Eastern Ukraine worth that much to Putin et al?
... connect the dots...
Someone has to lose, certainly. However, a loss in a world conflict ensures that the 'winning' side will not in any way resemble the same force that entered the war. Russia would be much more difficult to defeat than Nazi Germany, and with the collapsing Western system and the increasing destructiveness of weaponry the result would be quite surreal.
What is today's power compared to that of WWII? 3 times, 5 times, 10 times greater? There is a ratio that leads to nothing but sticks and stones for the fourth world war. A world conflict with Russia may not have crossed that line but I personally wouldn't take the bet. The line for war (the worst-case scenario for them), if they really are pushing to WWIII as it seems, is to have a small elite survive with enough servants and technology remaining to keep something of a recogniseable system going and begin to colonise space. And the best-case scenario for them is total capitulation to Oceania through war is peace treaties and economic sanctions.
We know that their best-case scenario will not happen. And there's quite a scale in between for varying levels of disaster, or perhaps worse than any strategic algorithms can predict. The only way to avoid the progression of the scorched earth policy is for a major revolutionary event.
Oh, right, just the Second World one ...
you obviously like to talk and make things up as you go along - which drug do you take?
I don't see the problem. If Russia violates Ukraine's air space, Russian aircraft will be shot down. That seems fair to me. How about Putin stay on his side, Ukraine stay on the Ukraine side, everybody wins! Except bankers and the MIC.
/sarc
That's a great idea. Both side's militaries should leave, and we should allow the people of Eastern Ukraine to hold a referendum. They would choose Russia however. Oops, we can't have that, so Western Ukraine sends in the military! Are you starting to figure it out yet???
obama ate half his portion of $300 sushi yesterday and bowed to a robot, michelle had her toenails polished,........ putin prepares for war......
OBAMA IS GOING TO TURN HIS BACK ON THE UKRAINE.....
hope they dont buy into his "support" message via slow joe and horseface........ THEY ARE ON THEIR OWN..... act accordingly
Going to?
When the US said there was not going to be any military intervention over Ukraine that was it. Somehow they managed to delude themselves that they still had military support coming, and military allies. The whole point of the US telling everyone it wasn't coming was so that Kiev would be forced to resolve its own problems or live with the consequences of not doing so. But they totally ignored that message. They didn't believe that this was really the final word on western military intervention. They seem to think that western soldiers and countries will fight Russia, to save Ukraine from its own bankruptcy. They simply don't want to face that we're not going to do anything significant to help them.
And then they're going to try and blame the western world for the mess they created ... if they even last that long. Best thing that can happen here is the Ukrainian military grows a pair and removes them now. But as far as options go, it's just the best of a very bad set of choices.
I feel bad for the Ukranian people. I hope none of them think that the US will actually help them. If anything the US will turn their country into a waste-land. The Ukraine, like poland and other east european countries are unfortunately stuck between a rock and a hard place. Bottom line, the US will fuck them over. At least Russia was sending them energy. The most they will get from the US is FRN's and empty promises.
Of course the likes of Pashinsky will do all right. At least until he gets tired of kissing Obama's ass at which time he'll just get eliminated.
@eddiebe. The most they will get from the US is FRN's and empty promises.
They might also get a side order of depleted uranium.
They might also get a side order of depleted uranium.
True the USA does have a habit of making places look like Chernobyl...
The gold was flown out, and the EU debt was brought in. It's the typical Western model now, right? Also, how do you fight a global war when you're broke? You use nuclear weapons... of course.
At this rate they'll be dusting off the late lamented Saddam's speeches about mother of all battles and enemies drowning in their own blood, etc. Saddam did indeed talk a very good fight, RIP.
All your base are belong to us.
--- S. Pashynskyi
A hot war about to break out and the two major nuclear powers on this planet may get involved. Yet gold is up less than a percent and silver basically unchanged and the S&P is down less than 0.3%.
The complacency is beyond belief or the markets are totally controlled or both.
There is exactly zero probability that the US will go head to head with Russia over anything Russia does in Europe.
please you must stop gambling!
Upvoted for the SNAP reference Physics. Throw in a shoutout to WIC next time for bonus points. At this point the Ukranians are asking for it. They just don't know when to shut up and they are deluded into thinking the West will back them.
Look if Germany don't budge, America won't do shit. Becase the only Army in Europe that can back us up when we get in too deep are the Germans. The Poles and other FSU states have numbers but are still cannon fodder for Russian Armor. The only quality Armor over there is German (the LeopardII is a meaaan piece of metal).
This is a straight up vehicular slugfest and the Russians simply can bring more Metal to the table.
Remember CAS is negated in this fight. Russia has a state of the art air defense network that likely outclasses America's ground based systems. Oh and did I mention we have WAY less bombers today because they've been converted to drones? And guess what? You can HACK drones, they don't carry sophisticated anti-Jamming and Groud Radar screwing avionics because that shit is HEAVY and it don't fit with a payload. And NO Uncle Sam did not think to invest in an ECM drone squadron either because guess what? Who needs ECM when you're fighting stupid sand people?
USMC spent the last two decades and billions of dollars on the OSPREY, the best darned chow delivery bus to the third world ever. Guess what the Russians spent the last two decades and billions of dollars in? No not Vodka, but 4th Generation fighters, improved avionics, missle technology and air defense. We are focused on fucking with the third world and the Russians have kept their eye on the prize all along. Tell me what the fucking Osprey does for the Corps during this fight.
Uncle Sam may see a hot piece of ass in the Ukraine but he's too smart to dip his wick in that tail cause the old coot's liable to come up a nasty Russian STD.
Good comment Gideon. We all knew that eventually all the capital mis-allocation and mal-investment that the west has been doing would catch up with us.
Gee, maybe we shouldn't have bailed everybody out after all? < shocker >
The West isn't meant to win the next global war. We are witnessing the next empire transition, and it isn't going to end well for the USSA.
Gideon,
You talk the talk but don't seem to have the knowledge.
US Armor is out of Europe. Has been for years. From this you can know several things:
-Firstly Russian propaganda that the west has been trying to 'carve up Russia' is a lie - at least in t he military sense. The banksters will play bankster games, after all. But as bad as their liar loans, fiat currency, and other excesses are, they are better than a military war. If you don't know that you're a fool, a tool, or someone who has never seen real combat.
-Secondly, propaganda about a conventional military intervention in Ukraine ARE propaganda. It is not clear if it is Russian Propaganda or Ukrainian propaganda or German propaganda.
Western conventional mlitary intervention in Ukraine would require tanks. If it were not propaganda the tanks would be somewhere nearby. - So where are they? They are in the continental US, Germany, and Britain respectively - ergo there are no indications anyone in the West is preparing a military response in the Ukraine at this time. If anything the West is suspiciously AVOIDING prudent cautions in this regard. A bright person might want to hypothesize why that is.
You might note that elites in Europe RIGHT NOW want to weld the EU into a unitary State complete with taxiing authority and an armed forces. Or you could note that the EU and the US have set their fiscal and monetary stages for debt collapse and default. These are just two reasons (among many) why they may WANT to ENCOURAGE Russia to do something that could be used as a justification for their respective next-steps.
Russia militarily invading and taking Ukraine would look to Europe a lot like Hitler taking Poland.
There's not going to be a heavy ground fight, because no one will come to the Ukraine's aid, and Ukraine doesn't have the training or equipment to fight the Russians.
It is the counteractions to that event that are likely to be bad for everyone, Russia and the West.
The Ukrainians can't fight conventional warfare against the Russians, but they have the potential to be devastating in an unconventional fight. Huge numbers of them have lived and worked in Russia, and can pass unremarked through a very porous border. Worse, they have nuclear material, certainly for dirty bombs, but factually the capability to produce full-blown nukes - just not traditional delivery systems.
And this is the main problem. Tanks are easy to fight. Truly, they are - if you know where to hit them. The key to fighting tanks is to hit their most vulnerable components - the parts trucks, fuel trucks, and mobile mechanics - ie everything that supports the tank.
A tank is not a car. Tracks produce so much vibration that all tracked vehicles litterally vibrate themselves apart. A tracked vehicle road-march of a couple hundred miles without mechanics fixing things constantly will temporarily bring down most of the Tank fleet. That's why mechanics and fuel are the tank's most vulnerable points. If either are significantly degraded then a tank becomes a bunker with poor visibility - ie useless. This is how the West took so many fewer casualties against the Weremacht in WWII than did the Soviets. The Soviets did a frontal assault. The West tried to minimize frontal assaults and concentrated on enabling actions - like putting Airborne behind the lines to degrade Nazi logistics.
Russia has a good IADS system. IADS is only as good as its radars. The best radars are not highly mobile.
Russia makes good fighters, yes. Are they overwhelmingly superior to the Euro and US stuff? That is far from certain, and truthfully said unlikely.
The Russians, just like the west, have kept most of the same air platforms as the Soviet Union had while focusing 'upgrades' on aging aircraft. The upgrades are to avionics, radar, communications, etc.
The USMC is not the prime purchaser of aircraft in the US Military. Specifically, they get to slightly modify what the Navy tells them they can have. And that is the truth. Any honest Marine who knows will tell you the same.
The US invests most heavily in its Air Forces. The US Air Force budget is almost as much as the Navy's and Army's combined. The Russian Vozdushnik Sil are the underdogs there, good equipment, but they have far fewer resources to draw on.
The US has converted its bombers to drones? That's BS. The drones from 'drone attacks' are specifically made to be drones.
Zero B52's, B1Bs, or B2s nor other conventional aircraft have been converted to drones.
When talking about Russia or the US only a very foolish person or propagandist would propose that either is a push over.
Your tone and vocabulary say you have been a US military man, your conclusions are straight from the Russian propaganda outlet.
So, which are you?
With modern infantry weapons, I'd never want to be in a tank. The Russians have not fallen behind in that regard either. How many tanks would Ukraine have to field? I've seen a video of a single tank so far without any support nearby. The rest of the video we've seen has been of APC's. We've seen a couple jets flying CAS and a couple helicopters. In Crimea we saw wave after wave of Russian helicopters however.
The West is broke too. What do we really expect to do when Russia secures her interests and people in Eastern Ukraine? I suspect we'll do nothing. They are not going to give up their ballistic missile and attack helicopter factories either just like they didn't give up their naval base. Russia could potentially take all of Eastern Ukraine and split it in two down the Dnieper River, and what will we be able to do in response?
If Russia goes in militarily, I expect it will be in a "peacekeeping" role. Donetsk and other areas will declare themselves a new Ukrainian republic. Russia will withdraw, leaving behind some equipment for the new republic, plus some military advisers. East Ukraine will thrive, neo-Nazi rump Ukraine will fall into poverty.
You treat Ukrainians as homogeneous, whereas clearly they are not and a large proportion in the eastern part of the country are Russian speaking aligned with Russia. These are the people most likely to have actually worked in Russia and they won't be opposing Russia's control of eastern Ukraine. It also means if Russia enters eastern Ukraine, any Ukrainians of a contrary view are going to find themselves being strung up by their Russian oriented neighbors.
The comment that neither the US nor Russia is a pushover is of course valid but stated baldly like that ignores the issue of where. Russia will be fighting on its borders. The US will be fighting on the other side of the world. That makes an enormous difference to both logistics and motivation.
The US is most unlikely to get seriously involved in Ukraine because US military leaders know they will get their forces trashed if they do, even if Obama doesn't understand this. So the US has waltzed Ukraine down the path to get dismembered and probably get a lot of Ukrainians killed, while disrupting Europe's economy. And no one is Washington will actually be held accountable for this gratuitous destruction.
"You might note that elites in Europe RIGHT NOW want to weld the EU into a unitary State complete with taxiing authority and an armed forces." - LMFAO!!! How does one collect a "tax" from someone with no WAGE?
Gideon... Don't forget the Russian research and upgrades to the 'Sunburn' anti ship missle and later versions of same.
The Black Sea is a duck pond, as is the Persian Gulf, for surface skimming missles traveling at 3,000 + mph.
As a US sub commander said 'there are only two kinds of ships; subs and targets'.
So they have modernized their army to be ready aginst Russia in only 1 month?
Good luck.
Yes, and using their "modest resources" too.
Putin and this Yatsnyuck aiming to win some euro-reality show? Now toss in Lavarov and this Paskynasty dude? I can't seem to put this here popcorn down. MAMA!!! Bring more of them Goobers!
Read Brezinki and Wolfowitz to understand what is going on there geopolitically!
HIlarious. This coming from the alien species neocon New Bolshevik invaders.
Funny how an RPG takes out their chopper and the crew escapes with no deaths, but an RPG takes out ours and the entirety of the famous Seal Team 6 is dead.
Not saying there is anything fishy there.
funny how a bullet in the arm doesn't always kill you but one in the heart almost always does.
Serhiy Pashynskyi is plainly ukraines version of Baghdad Bob
Now, IIRC, Serbia was bombed to pieces in 1999 by US and NATO because it was conducting "anti terrorist operation" against Kosovo Liberation Army. When Ukraine does the same against its own people, it gets a pat on the back.
Why should one justify it's action because of somebodies's else action?
There is no logic in that! It is the same logic as "I am going to drawn myself, because the other guy put himself on fire".
Besides, Eastern Ukranian rebels are nothing more than Russian mercenaries and bits and pieces of Yanukovich gang.
Just checking how many of you, Putin's paid trolls still around...
I'm not a troll, even less a paid one.
Anyways, ad hominem attacks are always the least effective.
Have a nice day. I know I will.
Troll checking = arrows down, means 4 counted.
I was not attacking you, nor associating you with trolls, but the logic used. Politians and women use this logic to divert attention of one's action to something else even might be similar. (You probably have another latin phrase for this specific tactic)
While I agree, that Kosovo and whole Yugoslavian war involvement by NATO and USA was a crime against Yugoslavian people and Clinton should be one answering to Haage court, not Milosevic.
Oh, I see. Sorry if I somehow insulted you.
I wasn't justifying anybody's action. I was pointing out how different standards are applied in more or less the same situation.
As for "eastern ukrainian rebels", they are actually doing the same thing, using the same means like those who overthrew Yanukovich, yet they get no sympathy simply because they are pro-russian, not pro-EU.
In the end, who owns energy (oil and gas), will overcome. Be it in a year, two, five or ten, it is inevitable. Politicians usually have no idea about laws of physics, which will hit them hard in the face, but at that very moment, it is going to be too late.
I guess the "anti-terrorist operation" isn't going to so well.
Are we sure it wasn't these guys?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hs5_5sPhDbE
If my 25 year old Plymouth catches fire, can blame it on Russians? Each time I rev up the engine, I swear, I hear machine guns. By the sound of it there it at least a dozen insurgents hiding out in bushes near the garage.