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Ukraine Begins Army Offensive To Regain Slavyansk; Separatists Fight Back, Shoot Down Helicopters
After a few days of extended verbal foreplay, it was only a matter of time before Ukraine finally snapped and resumed a military operation to regain the lost cities in the east, especially once the warmongering IMF made it explicitly clear that should Ukraine lose control of pro-Russian controlled cities the $17 billion bailout package would be lost too. Sure enough, early this morning Kiev launched a military operation to regain control of the pro-Russian separatist stronghold of Slovyansk, overrunning numerous roadblocks and surrounding the city, officials said, but meeting stiff resistance from militants who managed to shoot down at least one helicopter.
Ukraine chopper taken down:
Pro-Russian soldier with a grenade launcher manning a checkpoint
Ukrainian soldiers stand guard at a Ukrainian checkpoint near the eastern town of Slaviansk May 2, 2014.
Credit: REUTERS/Baz Ratner
A pro-Russian separatist stands guard on top of an armoured personnel carrier in the town of Slaviansk in eastern Ukraine May 2, 2014.
Credit: REUTERS/Baz Ratner
Ukrainian soldiers stand guard at a Ukrainian checkpoint near the eastern town of Slaviansk May 2, 2014.
Credit: REUTERS/Baz Ratner
A Ukrainian military helicopter flies near a Ukrainian checkpoint near the town of Slaviansk in eastern Ukraine May 2, 2014.
Credit: REUTERS/Baz Ratner
According to WSJ reporters, Ukraine's Interior Minister Arsen Avakov said militant fighters fought back against the advancing Ukrainian units with heavy weaponry, including grenade launchers and shoulder-fired surface-to-air missiles. There was no immediate sign that Ukraine's forces were moving further into the city.
Separatist leaders claimed to have shot down four Ukrainian helicopters in the clash, Russian state media reported, but Ukraine's defense ministry said two helicopters had been shot down and that two soldiers were killed and several more wounded. Ukraine's state security service confirmed only one Mi-24 chopper was taken down, with one pilot killed and the other taken captive. A spokeswoman for the separatists said one person was killed and another wounded on their side.
Video clip of Ukraine army helicopters shot down in Slavyansk
Reuters adds that a third helicopter, an Mi-8 transport aircraft, was also hit and a serviceman wounded, the Defence Ministry said. The SBU security service said this helicopter was carrying medics.
Yet even this appears merely a preview of the event to come, which on request of western powers, may wait until after the market is closed on Friday afternoon.
Eight hours after Reuters journalists in Slaviansk heard shooting break out and saw one helicopter opening fire, the city of 130,000 was quiet, with shops shut and armed separatists in control of the streets while Ukrainian forces in armored vehicles had taken up positions on the outskirts of town.
Ukrainian officials said troops overran rebel checkpoints around the city in an operation launched before dawn and it was now "tightly encircled". They pointed to the heavy fire that hit the helicopters as proof of the presence of Russian forces, despite repeated denials from Moscow that it has troops on the ground or is controlling the uprising.
And then the Russian warnings started:
Putin's spokesman heaped blame on the Ukrainian government, which took power two months ago after pro-Western protests forced the Kremlin-backed elected president to flee to Russia. Noting that Putin had warned before that any "punitive operation" would be a "criminal act", Dmitry Peskov told Russian news agencies that this was what had now happened at Slaviansk, where separatists seeking independence or annexation by Moscow are holding seven foreign European military observers.
Saying Putin had sent an envoy, Vladimir Lukin, to southeast Ukraine to negotiate their release, Peskov said that Lukin had not been heard from since the Ukrainian operation began.
"While Russia is making efforts to de-escalate and settle the conflict, the Kiev regime has turned to firing on civilian towns with military aircraft and has begun a punitive operation, effectively destroying the last hope of survival for the Geneva accord," he said, referring to a deal on April 17 signed by Russia, Ukraine, the United States and the European Union.
Reuters is also reporting that Russian President Vladimir Putin's spokesman said on Friday that Kiev would be held responsible "first of all by its people" for its decision to launch a "punitive operation" in south-east Ukraine.
Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov, speaking on Rossiya 24 television, called on Europe and the United States to give their assessment of the situation in the area, where "aviation is being used against the population" and urged Kiev to think again about its actions, according to the report.
About as clear a warning as one can get that Russia is about to cross the border in a "peacekeeping" mission and get involved as well: hardly the de-escalation the priced to global pax Americana, and climatic perfection rigged and manipulated markets desire.
For now, however, the eye of the military hurricane may be passing over Slavyansk:
Reuters journalists in the city heard shooting from shortly after 4 a.m. (9 p.m. EDT Thursday) and saw a military helicopter open fire. Towards midday, the city was quiet, shops were shut but rebel gunmen appeared to be still in tight control of the streets. Ukrainian troops were at a halt in the suburbs.
The SBU said the deadly use by the separatists of shoulder-launched anti-aircraft missiles was evidence that "trained, highly qualified foreign military specialists" were operating in the area "and not local civilians, as the Russian government says, armed only with guns taken from hunting stores".
Armed groups seeking union with Russia have seized a number of government buildings in towns in eastern Ukraine. The action in Slaviansk appeared to mark the heaviest military response by Kiev since it tightened a cordon around the city a week ago.
"They wanted to carry out some small-scale tactical operations just to scare the people," said a militant manning a checkpoint leading to the army-held airfield. "But so far things have not worked out the way they wanted."
The irony of course is that East Ukraine is for all intents and purposes lost to Kiev, and with the IMF ultimatum hanging over the acting government's head, a civil was is now all but inevitable, a war which will most certainly end up involving both Russia and NATO eventually:
"Shells came into my garden," said one local man, Gennady. "They say that they have come to defend us. But who from?" he said of the Ukrainian forces. "Civilians must stop them." On the town's southern outskirts, eight Ukrainian armored personnel carriers cut off the road but faced a cordon two deep of local residents shouting at them to go home.
So while we await the final escalation, here is some media coverage of what really happened.
Amateur footage from a resident in Slavansk shows a plume of smoke rising from the city on Friday morning.
Pictures have emerged in social media of a wounded helicopter pilot being helped into an ambulance by self-defense forces.
???????? ?????? ????????? ???????? ??????.???????? ??????, ?????? ??? ? ????????.@sashakots
#????????.#?????? #????. pic.twitter.com/V4bETnVkBH
— ??????????-LIVE (@NovorossiyaLive) May 2, 2014
helicopter just landed, dispatched another 20 troops and left againm Just outsdie slavyansk pic.twitter.com/XA5bbhYur8
— Kate Parkinson (@katecctvnews) May 2, 2014
Former anti govt militia checkpoint outside Slavyansk taken over by Ukr militiary pic.twitter.com/feaNU1LXL1
— Kate Parkinson (@katecctvnews) May 2, 2014
Ukrainian armored vehicles presses people in Yasnogorka
Helicopters above Slavyansk:
#Slovyansk: 4 #Russian MPADS bargain shoppers held over 2 downed #Ukrainian helos. #Ukraine #Sloviansk #Slavyansk pic.twitter.com/jOkM2VXrPx
— Ukrainian Updates (@Ukroblogger) May 2, 2014
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A copter a day would keep the military away.
Actually, it was two helicopters.
Had to check gold, sure enough, it's actually a little green. Too funny.
Not for long....
People wrongly assume the prices in stock market are influenced or determined by news etc. No, that is wrong, it is determined by the guy who pushes the strokes at his computer after he sees what are the positions of the people to be flenced ... simple, tails i win, heads you lose ... there it is
May 9th is Victory Day in Russia, Ukraine over the Nazi´s. This is going to get hot. Russian tanks will be crossing the borders, once the soil dries up after the spring thaw.
Nuland and all the other bitches and bastards must be proud of themselves. They finally got their civil war in Ukraine. Now thousands of people will die and loose their homes in the defense of the US dollar and a corrupt monetary/financial system.
Yes I know my enemies
They're the teachers who taught me to fight me
Compromise, conformity, assimilation, submission
Ignorance, hypocrisy, brutality, the elite
All of which are American dreams
All of which are American dreams
All of which are American dreams
All of which are American dreams
All of which are American dreams
All of which are American dreams
All of which are American dreams
All of which are American dreams
Zack de la Rocha
Defy their dreams, do not comply to their dreams, remove your consent, resist... resent
AD
If the center of the city is assaulted, Russia will look like a bunch of pussies unless they return fire, and keep good on their word.
You know, Zack and friends appear to be collectivists at heart, but Rage Against The Machine is some of the best ass-kicking protest rock ever made.
Fuck you, I won't do what you tell me!
Agreed
The tape won the band a deal with Epic, and their leap to the majors did not go unnoticed by detractors, who questioned the revolutionary integrity of Rage Against the Machine's decision to align itself with the label's parent company, media behemoth Sony.
In December 2009, a campaign was launched on Facebook by English DJ Jon Morter and his wife Tracy, from South Woodham Ferrers. It generated nationwide publicity and took the track "Killing in the Name" to the coveted Christmas number one slot in the UK Singles Chart, which had been dominated for four consecutive years from 2005 by winners from the popular TV show The X Factor.
We're very very ecstatic and excited about the song reaching the number one spot. We want to thank everyone that participated in this incredible, organic, grass-roots campaign. It says more about the spontaneous action taken by young people throughout the UK to topple this very sterile pop monopoly. When young people decide to take action they can make what's seemingly impossible, possible.
~~~~~~~
Between Saturday 6th and Thursday 11 August 2011, thousands of people rioted in several London boroughs and in cities and towns across England.[12] The resulting chaos generated looting, arson, and mass deployment of police. The events were also called "BlackBerry riots" because people used mobile devices and social media to organise.
~~~~~~~
propaganda comes in many flavors
Some of those who rage mostest,
are the same as the spoildest!
rage against the machine.
Wait! mumsy and dada ARE the machine!
Go Hahvahd!!
shills.
The news is more often determined by the stock market. Not that all the events are created for the benefit of the market (although I think a few might be) but the amount of exposure an event gets in the MSM news feeds is controlled by people heavily involved in the markets.
let just say, the guy at GS as plenty of advance notice and there are never suprises ...
but most importantly,he can still sell or buy into oblivion with money he doesnt have, so good luck taking the other side of the trade
Now they are really f*cked over.
OK so ZH cover westside propaganda story, voice of russia cover eastside of propaganda, but where is the truth?
Try the mainstream media
/Sarc
i do. i read MSM post on ZH
No one on Zerohedge is on Rissia's side. None of us sane people want to support a government more corrupt than Russia. Open your eyes and stop saying stupid things.
Lack of live Ukraine coverage: Why American media effing sucks
http://wtfrly.com/2014/05/02/lack-of-live-ukraine-coverage-why-american-...
The odd thing is that you can have 10 reporters in the field streaming live coverage but if the news chief doesn't want it to run, it won't run.
The internet now performs the investigative reporting to grab eyes and clicks and gain respect while the MSM Corpro-speak manufactures opinions to serve up like potato salad left too long in the sun.
Thus the need for critical thinking. Never will the "truth" be given. It is up to us the readers to sort the clues from the two perspectives and for each of us to form our conclusions. Truth requires work and subtlety and is always an individual pursuit.
In vino veritas:
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaIn vino veritas is a Latin phrase that translates “in wine [there is the] truth". The expression, together with its counterpart in Greek, “?? ???? ???????” (En oin?i al?theia), is found in Erasmus' Adagia, I.vii.17.[1] Pliny the Elder's Naturalis historia contains an early allusion to the phrase.[2] The Greek expression is traced back to a poem by Alcaeus.[3]
Herodotus asserts, and it is likely enough, that if the Persians took a decision while drunk, they made a rule to reconsider it when sober. Few authors between Herodotus and Lévi-Strauss would have dared to add, as Herodotus does, that if the Persians took a decision while sober, they made a rule to reconsider it when they were drunk (Histories, book 1, section 133).[4]
The Roman historian Tacitus described how the Germanic peoples always drank while holding councils, as they believed nobody could lie effectively when drunk.[
Krushchev gave away Crimea to Ukraine when he was drunk. We're dealing with the resulting fallout right now.
That was already in motion by Stalin, a Georgian...
and final by Krushchev, a Ukrainian...
without asking the the people...
otherwise, it was never forseen Ukraine would evervbe seperated from Soviet
…they believed nobody could lie effectively when drunk…
While this may have some truth to it, it should also be noted that while speaking unadulterated and inebriated “truth”, it can also disclose to those listening with sober ears, the degree to which the speaker himself / herself is deceived.
Wine is a mocker, strong drink a brawler,
and whoever is led astray by it is not wise.
The purpose in a man's heart is like deep water,
but a man of understanding will draw it out.
Proverbs 20:1 & 5
jmo
Apropos
http://youtu.be/GGNdnlCbfMs?t=1m44s
"OK so ZH cover westside propaganda story, voice of russia cover eastside of propaganda, but where is the truth?"
..out of space, please try CNN and FOX NEWS among others, they have deeper and broader coverages! Just stay away from the propaganda here and there; they are for adult!
And NATO's No2 now says Russia is the enemy
http://rt.com/usa/156204-nato-vershbow-russia-adversary/
Yeah, the old enemy (terrorist from the ME) has lost its charm and appeal.
We have always been at war with Eurasia.
The irony is that we have always been at war with everybody... so changing the focus doesn't make the statement untrue.
They want to isolate Russia. It is all about isolating Europe from the raising BRICS' influence. The USSA wants to force Europe into signing the TTIP. Ukraine is the perfect smoke screen to divide Western Europe from the emerging Eurasian trading zone. The USSa want to chain Western Europe into using the US dollar for decades to come with the TTIP.
Which is why the USA wants the EU and Euro. Obama threatened the UK over leaving the EU because of this demand. The problem is the citizens of the EU are realising the EU is an old boys club designed purely to focus power on the few over the many. And they don't like it, and so more and more anti EU parties are gaining support
yes, the US is pressuring the UK to keep being "the gateway to the EU" (White House wording, mind you)
no, FED interests would be better served if the EUR would break up, and King Dollar would reign supreme, with all european national banks scrambling to find a peg to the USD in this currency wars environment. btw, this means they would have to buy more US Treasuries
from a FED perspective, the ECB is a win/lose situation. win: a partner big enough and reliable enough to make a temporary swap in the trillion range in case shared megabanks need extra cash. lose: europeans can pool their USD-denominated FX reserves. the second part has a longer-lasting effect
meanwhile, the EU is still governed by the club members, i.e. the national governments. if the UK would just relent it's drive to force this TTIP trade pact on the EU... have a look at this PewResearch poll on what Americans and Germans think about TTIP. enlightening
And, in the United States, there is a striking generation gap in attitudes relating to TTIP.
check out that gap in the generation gap between % support... & % trust American...
again, propaganda comes in many flavors.
And please remember that a country does not sell gas to its enemies!
It may be a Cold War...but surely it is a Cold Winter!
I knew I heard somewhere about Russians and their extended rang of shoulder-fired missile technology...ah, that's where they are!
Well the CIA/Mossad/FoxForce5 really screwed the pooch on this one.
All the machinations in the world, boiling down to "let's just take their shit."
The mask is off, the truth is easy to see: America the hateful warmongering empire.
ever thought it might be part of the plan?
EDIT: from the down arrows, people yet not ready to accept reality, i get it ... give it time. When this is the situation in ZH imagine what is in the country.... MSM has the work cut out for them .... people will continue to hope against hope that somehow all it will change and come back... similar to the feeling of seeing your stock continuesly going down ... it takes a pro to cut the losses and get out, most never do ... very similar.
As are all of the major powers in the world today, some are just more capable than others. Those "pro-Russian" forces are Russian forces and the same goes for the Ukes, they are salted with Nato troops and western mercs.
There are no good guys here... none, including us for letting our governments get us into this shit because we are comfortable.
"America the hateful warmongering empire."
I used to take offense at that long ago....until I started doing my reading...
Russia should test that S-500 thingie.
Two ukranian copters down? Good! Blood will run thicker than any IMF monetary infusion into that blown vein known as the ukraine EVER WILL. I'm sure those ukrainian boys know the true course of honor, and dignity. Crimea did- swiftly chosing not to collude with western interests. Good for them. Declare your allegIance, boys! Dont surrender your prerogative for evil zionist/eu/u.s. interests! Russia will welcome you with open arms! do the right thing!
nyet...
I presume futures are crashing on this news?
No, but gold is EXPLODING higher!!!!
Still tame and in the channel. I'm looking at $1,287 at 7:09 a.m. Where do you see exploding?
I'll help you out because you seem nice. When a poster uses all caps and exclamation points, chances are he is using sarcasm.
Ahhh, polish salute! I should have caught that. Thank you.
Well, hold on here ...
Two helicopters are worth about .20%. We'll call it 1/10th a percentage point for every helicopter that goes down. At this rate, it will only require another eight helicopters for gold to rise 1%.
Now, I'm not sure how much a helicopter costs, but I'm thinking some oligarch is gonna be making bank here.
Well fuck, shows what I know ...
Looks like we're gonna need more helicopters.
We don't care how many people we kill to get that 17 billion dollars. The bankers say kill, so that's what we are going to do.
Field Marshal Lagarde?
NUTS!
This is bad. Now the morons in the west( Obama, Cameron, Hollande etc.)who are itching for war just might get the pretext to do something colossaly stupid.
What military assets can the BS Kiev government have left? Russia now has 80% of their navy, gained land units through defection, and if kiev keeps sending out units to get blown up, the only thing kiev can do is beg for outside troops and weaponry. Unless our leaders are true psycopaths, ukraine best surrender.... we're fucked.
All leaders are psycopaths. The traits that make up a psycopath are self selecting "leadership" qualities. Not the leadership qualities that you read on a successories poster, but real life leadership qualities. Can you lie, deceive, cheat, steal and do so, not only without remorse, but do it as easily as you tie your shoe, and with the flair of a great stage actor. Those people run governements, sit on the boards of all of our major corporations, run the institutions of higher learning, etc. They run the world.
Can a teleprompter be charged with war crimes?
The people who write it and read it, and publish it can.
Holy cow! I guess we are the fiat printing great Satan! The IMF is saying LET'S GET READY TO RUMBLE!! The higher ups need their circuses as well -- this is great drama for them
Hang on. Aren't people who oppose an illegitimate government called freedom fighters? or is it patriots? or even heros? Hang on a sec. I've also heard em called terrorists. But I suppose since Ukraine is backed by the money makers and NATO we can't call them that. Way to harsh. So separatists it is - a nice 'in between word'. It's all so confusing ;)
The corruption of language is a very underrated part of the decline of 'Merica.
Awesome comment :)
Indeed toying wit hthe sense of words is a critical part of modern form of propaganda.
indeed, propaganda's battlefield is always the vocabulary. check if you know what antitrust means, for example. 1982, if asked, many would have answered: "it's about breaking up companies that are too big for the markets" and would have cited the Breakup of the Bell System as example. now think about the dear megabanks... and that they are too big to be prosecuted
not to mention the breakup of Standard Oil in 1911:
http://www.linfo.org/standardoil.html
of course, we all know what ACT was passed by Congress on Xmas Eve just a short 2 years later.
reptiles scurry fast, don't they?
Or compare Liberal to Libertarian. They originated form the same root and carried the same meanig, until Roosevelt redefined "Liberal" in 1932 with his post Great Depression reforms. All of the sudden, helping someone in need was no longer a voluntary act, but a duty, and it was up to the 3rd party (the government) to dictate which group needed help and which one had to sacrifice for the greater good. It was a huge leap towards big government a big shift from right-defending Constitutional Republic to the Democracy we know today where individuals have no rights - only privileges.
It was actually about more than just being too big for the markets. A company cannot be blamed for being big.
It was actually about such big companies exercising market dominance in an abusive and anti-free market way or indulging in cartels to achieve that.
A major anti-trust lawsuit was launched against IBM back in the 70s which sought to prove that IBM abused its marketplace dominance. Reagan dropped it when he came into office.
wrote this comment a couple months back:
we are haunted by language to be deaf to the sound of our own creation.
General George Washington was a traitor, he would have called a terrorist, today, and would have been hanged by his former government if captured. Success made him a hero, a father of his country and the first President of the USA
And that old phrase of the winners writing the history books still holds true today.
Pretend Washington lost. What would be taught in schools today if the US were still an English colony today?
"An early disruption in our empire was led by the enemy of state George Washington, a buffoon of a giant of a man, obscessed with his clothing, and so cruel he would chop down embrionic cherry trees at a whim."
"The irony of course is that East Ukraine is for all intents and purposes lost to Kiev, and with the IMF ultimatum hanging over the acting government's head, a civil was is now all but inevitable, a war which will most certainly end up involving both Russia and NATO eventually"
the real irony behind the IMF "ultimatum" is that the IMF represents taxpayers from the US, the european countries, Russia, China, etc
it follows that they have to consider economic assets (including those in the east of Ukraine) in their lending
does the IMF lending scheme provision really serve as an incentive for the Kiew government to do their outmost to preserve the territorial integrity of the Ukrainian nation? I doubt it. I don't think you could even bribe directly that government to change anything of what it's doing
Russia & NATO directly at war? I don't even know where to start... If you get into such unlikely scenarios, then what about one like: NATO breaking up because of the handling of Ukraine? (remember that France did once leave the NATO for years)
Didn't matter.
Nobody takes France seriously anyway.
They are Europe's clown car.
Crazy. As if Russian aviation can't burn those APC's & be back over the border within minutes.
This is certainly not looking good.
Hang on. Since when did civilian protestors (pro-Russian supporters) have anti-aircraft weaponry? Let alone grenade launchers.
Surely this dispells the Russian myth that the separatists are civilians.
I don't know. The other side would say there were alot of ukranian military defected, im sure the had access to weapons and had the knowledge to use them.
The goverment of Russia says they are civilians, remember? Meanwhile there is another myth: that europeans are all quite disarmed or not be able to arm themselves in a pinch, having in general more restrictive weapon laws
Lots of weapons lying around in both west and east europe, and plenty of black markets to supply whatever you might wish for
After the gvt took away forks and knives, (left the citizens with chop sticks to eat with,after they were attacking themselves with the eating tools), all we had left to fight with were spoons.
Don't forget 'icky thump' (for those old enough to remember "The Goodies")
Right!! Like Putin hasn't known for the last 5 to 10 years with 5 billion US, EU bribes, NGO's, corporate buy outs, and of course those free cookies, what the west has been up to.
hmmmm.....sounds like Afghanistan....where did those guys get those shoulder fired SAMs?
Many of them fought there...Afgantsy...
There are 3 potential sources of the MANPADS, 1) "defectors" brought them with them (or liberated them from a local armory) 2) "locals" liberated them from a Ukranian armory or 3) "Russians" brought them across the border.
We simply don't know at this point.
If TSHTF in the US - would you be so presumptuous of Russian or other "foreign invader" involvement if a US helicopter was shot down?
in all europe there is a fourth potential source: hidden caches. NATO, Warsaw Pact, intelligence services, plain private ones
Perhaps it is the fear of paperwork that leads to a gross under-reporting of the high number of European "boating accidents".
There is also a peculiar lack of reporting on the State-sanctioned cache side as to what was finally found in Bern in 1998 following Mitrokhin's disclosures...
now you're getting warm...see my posts above..
see my posts above.....
Russians would say they are Ukrainian seperatists that we have been supporting by supplying them with arms. Similar to how the US/NATO supported rebels/freedom fighters in Syria or Libya.
So, who controls Slavyansk, and what cities are next? Didn't seem to go well for Ukraine.
maybe, just maybe they were formerly ukranian soldiers with weapons provided by the cia or mossad, realized thier true lot was with motherland russia, defected to the correct side of the issue based on the bullshit meddling from israel and the west going on, and now are fighting for a good cause. That morale sure is good on the seperatists side. Fighting for just money doesnt always cut it. Cause motivates.
see above...There are old guys... Afgantsy and other ex services and special services from SOVIET that live in these cities and towns...VETERANS....they know stuff and got stuff...its been there awhile...taken home afterward of collapse, each conflict and any othertime handily....resources for next time needed in real...
t
These are locals, the older guys...are vets and ex services, special services from SOVIET...
Afgantsy and other.....
firstly, much arms and stuff been there awhile...and lastly..these guys know how to use it..
They are Ukrainian citizens...defend their families, homes and cities.
Can I call you Osmium?
Or Iridium?
They are going to find that envoy's head stuck to the back of a tortoise, walking down the streets of Kiev.
Expect the violence in Ukraine to quickly ratchet up. What is happening in Ukraine and the unrest in many areas in the world brings into focus the many conflicts that develop when a region decides to change governments often outside the recognized democratic system of voting. In some cases even after an overwhelming vote such as in Crimea the whole process is called into question.
Unfortunately the American civil war did not resolve the issue of succession forever and definitely was not a template for a solution that should be used in countries across the planet. Bottom-line is many political leaders are slow to give up control and this will not change. For more on this important issue see the article below.
http://brucewilds.blogspot.com/2014/03/the-issue-of-sovereign-borders.ht...
You sound like a MSM shrill.
There is much more to this than the so called "democratic system of voting" .
Are we still voting for deligates again?
"The irony of course is that East Ukraine is for all intents and purposes lost to Kiev"
To clarify: shouldn't that be "lost by Kiev"??
smacker, have a look at this: "“We should hang our heads in shame,” Farage said, adding that it was the British government that had encouraged the EU to pursue“imperialist, expansionist” ambitions in Ukraine."
the header says "EU blood on it's hands". In the details, our friend Nigel points to... the UK
meanwhile there is a group of US Senators that are seriously pushing. Yet this goes a bit lost, then... it's nothing really new
Thanks for that. I was aware of Farage's comments a while back.
It has long amazed me that British govts of either party are often able to get away with being at the centre of global strife without anyone really noticing. Same thing happened in Yugoslavia, Libya and Syria. It just goes to prove that whichever political party people vote for in Britain, foreign policy (and so much more) continues unchanged.
Why? Because it isn't our elected politicians who actually control government policy. There is a secret cabal operating in Britain which is embedded in The Establishment and Security Services (MI5, MI6) who actually have control. And they have tightly closed-loop relationships with Washington.
interestingly, a lot of people make a fuss out of Prince Charles getting as involved as possible with the British Intelligence corps. I would do the same, in his place
I don't know if your point is true. Not long ago, British public opinion was the most warlike and pro-American of Europe, and politicians followed suit
Something similar, French public opinion shifted, lately, and I think Syria was the reason
German public opinion... oh, boy. If Germans would vote on that, Snowden would be in Berlin, now
There is a school of thought in Britain that the Royal Family aka "The Crown" (through Prince Philip and now Charles) has significant control & influence over MI6 and the Foreign Office (and also the Bank of England, but that's another story). Of course such theories are pooh-poohed by politicans whenever mentioned because whatever relationship exists, it's kept a very very closely guarded secret. The mysterious death of Diane was a case in point where some people believe she was murdered by MI6 on orders from Phillip due to the perceived disrepute she was bringing to "The Crown". Let's not forget that "The Crown" is the 1st Estate in Britain, House of Lords being the 2nd Estate and The House of Commons being the 3rd. Only one of these is elected. This is what Cromwell left us with. It's no wonder his statue sits right in front of Parliament(!), they all love it.
For sure, Brits are certainly quite pro-Americn but this does not generally extend to openly supporting American wars and global aggression. It is really the American culture that Brits like, helped enormously by the common language and a general awareness that American people are quite decent and generous.
As far as the British Establishment and Security Services are concerned, again, some people believe that when the British Empire collapsed, Britain handed over the reigns of global control to America and continues to play a very active role in exercising that global power. This relationship has been called the "Anglo-American" empire, where Britain plays from the shadows to avoid scaring the horses back home. It has also been said that if you drew an organisation chart of the American security apparatus showing the CIA & NSA, then MI6 and GCHQ would appear as a branch office. They are that close and work very closely together.
http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2010/nov/29/wikileaks-cables-rude-prince-a...
Tatiana Gfoeller, Washington's ambassador to Kyrgyzstan, recorded in a secret cable that Andrew spoke "cockily" at the brunch with British and Canadian business people
"His mother's subjects seated around the table roared their approval. He then went on to 'these (expletive) journalists, especially from the National [sic] Guardian, who poke their noses everywhere' and (presumably) make it harder for British businessmen to do business. The crowd practically clapped."
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/envoy/prince-andrew-sacked-uk-business-envoy...
Then turning to the subject of "the Great Game"—the world powers' historical quest for influence in Central Asia—Prince Andrew "stated baldly that 'the United Kingdom, Western Europe (and by extension you Americans too') were now back in the thick of playing the Great Game," Amb. Gfoeller wrote. "More animated than ever, he stated cockily: 'And this time we aim to win!'"
"Without contradicting him, the ambassador gently reminded him that the United States does not see its presence in the region as a continuation of the Great Game," the U.S. envoy relayed in her cable back to Washington.
wink, wink ;~)
5 I's C ALL
Quite so. In his so-called role as special UK trade representative, Prince Andrew has occasionally been described as a "front man" for the Foreign Office. This Guardian article indirectly confirms it, given his comments.
He is also on several peoples' suspect list of "people in very high places" connected to child sex and pedophilia.
Who knows the truth about Prince Andrew?
NF just got hit....with an egg.
May sound callous but I wish a slow and painful death to bankers, mercenaries, "traditional" media, government spy/"law enforcement" agencies etc. and the dickheads in "charge" of Ukraine atm. As a Slav I hate what is happening now and what I fear is to come. Having lived through NATO "freedom bombings" wouldn't at all mind for the leaders of NATO countries to shove it, or better yet be let loose in a farmhouse with starving rabid trained attack dogs with no way out.
The US market is likely to crash as Jeremy Grantham explained. When the US market crashes and when everyone is busy in the US to find out if the Fed can dig up more money to print or not to prop up a completely failed financial structure, or if people want to close down the Fed for good. Then Putin will move in the Eastern part of Ukraine. That will exacerbate the instability in currencies at the very moment when things look bad and hte US is yet again into a presidential election cycle. Perfect combo.
Civil War in Ukraine brought to you by
Washington, DC
City of London
Vatican City
BTW, the MSM in the US is pondering how Prince Harry is going to find Mrs. Right?
and what has the Vatican to do with Ukraine? the current religious schism there is among Orthodox Christians
Actually, the pope and the Russian Patriarch have knocked heads repeatedly over the Vatican's support of the Ukrainian Uniates, bascially papists in Orthodox drag. These Uniates were reported by Voltairnet.org to be a key cause to the Western Ukrainian uprising.
The Russian Patriarch was basically the only world religious leader to boycott John Paul II's funeral, and it was primarily over the Uniate question.
right....Second Rome vile,corrupt and discredited vs Third Rome resurrected and risen...
Nyet...western ukraine where most of the radicals from is poles
second rome vs third rome
"BTW, the MSM in the US is pondering how Prince Harry is going to find Mrs. Right?"
Actually, I was in an office yesterday dealing with Bureaucracy for three hours. While I was there, CNN was blasting the whole time, and it was stunning. The entire time, two stories were endlessly repeated: the Malaysian plane and the mayor of Toronto. The same two stories, repeated ad nauseum for three hours! Neither of which, of course, makes a damned bit of difference to the lives of the general population.
The propaganda just keeps descending further and further into the realm of Pravda...
Well it is worse than that, actually I was with my family yesterday watching NCIS episodes a couple of season old.
Guess what they were already playing the drums of the cold wars and those nasty "reds". And it is not the only show that did.
Opinion has been stealthily prepared. The angst of the Cold War reignited within occidental, foremost US, mind of those humoculus subjugated by the power of the almighty TV.
Enjoy the ride.
Lets not forget the biggest enabler of all, people stupidity.
Up to now in this US, UK & EU planned/supported Ukraine crises, it looks to me that Russia has been exercising significant restraint.
But given warnings issued from Moscow for many days about Kiev taking offensive action in the East, who knows what Russia will do now.
Given the cultural demographics of East Ukraine, Russia may be left with little option but to intervene. Of course this will open the flood gates to a torrent of anti-Russian propaganda from Western politicals and MSM. That will possibly "justify" NATO to get involved even though Ukraine is not a member.
I imagine that Nuland and others in Washington are quietly satisfied that "everything is going according to plan".
I agree with your "Russia has been exercising significant restraint."
a direct intervention? I would not be very smart. and totally, utterly unnecessary for a while
nowadays there are some four millions of young male Russians that dream the Cossack dream, willing to enter Ukraine as civilians, "find" uniform without insignia, "find" arms, "find" a chain of command and fight for the greater glory of the Rodina (means "Motherland")
I'm quite fond of repeating on ZH that the conservative backbone of europe is often misunderstood in the more liberal English-speaking world. It's part of europe being way more tribal, and those tribes having a looong story of being in their territories. bunch a few tribes together for a couple of centuries: a nation, which means nationalism
Well, I didn't specifically say that Russia may intervene "directly" although it is an option. Your idea of Cossacks going there is another option. That would make it a bit like the Spanish Civil War where many Brits (and others) went over there to fight Fascism. Also, not unlike Syria where quite a few foreign Moslems have gone there to fight on one side or the other.
I guess there's a few options to consider before Russian tanks roll in.
Putin approves sale of newest S-400 air defense system to China
DEBKAfile April 30, 2014, 9:06 AM (IDT)Coinciding with the last day of US President Barack Obama’s Asia tour, Vladimir Putin Tuesday gave the green light to sell China Russia’s newest S-400 air defense guided missile system. Moscow says this will give Beijing an edge in the airspace over the Taiwan Strait and the Diaoyutai islands disputed between China and Japan. China voiced strong opposition to Obama’s pledge a week ago in Tokyo to come to Japan’s defense in any conflict with China over the islands.
It looks like Putin can multi-task pretty well, gals.
I'm still waiting for Iran to get a CARE package of SS400's.
Things will probably have to get a little warmer in E. Ukraine before Putin sends the US that 'Fuck You' valentine.
NATO will not go to war with Russia over Ukraine. First nobody wants to risk a nuclear war and second nobody wants that Russia turns off the gas to Western Europe (at least the Europeans don't want that).
Prime example of bankster financial terrorism.
If the militaries don't go after the world banksters we are all doomed.
Doomed. You can't run a world with terrorists at the helm. Thus Spake Q99X2
But of course if the big guns on both sides weren't in bed with the terrorists to produce this play the bankster terrorists would not exist because one side or the other would go after them directly.
The issue is that average military has lot of qualities but understanding the big picture is not one them.
Our doom is that a massive part of the population also do not or care about it.
Too busy watching NCIS reruns.
Russia won't intervene in Eastern Ukraine. They will arm and support the separatists, but they won't directly intervene. What they want is a civil war that will keep the country unstable. That serves their purposes as well as dividing it.
"JSA" won't intervene in Eastern Ukraine. They will arm and support the "Facists", but they won't directly intervene.
Here, fixed it for ya...
I believe you have it ass about face. I note you offer no reasons for making that ridiculous assertion.
I see no benefits to Russia in keeping Ukraine unstable, quite the opposite in fact.
Here it goes!
Never lose hope in the CFR predictions :)
I was wondering if they could pull of their "prediction" about a common currency in NATO by 2015. Well at this pace... It would take really few to push EU down the hole, then it is only History.
Enjoy the ride bitches>
Anyone calling this what it is....Civil War?
Also, kinda funny this happened the day after the IMF gave Ukraine their first $5B, huh. Coincidence?
The US-Ukraine cronies are about to experience the difference between the fantasy of US Government conference room propaganda and the harsh reality of war.
And what could become of this if the gas pipe goes limp?
Friendly fire, thats all.
Cry havok and let slip the proxies of war!
I understand the current Ukrainian government's desire to try to hold the physical borders of the country, but they've got to realize they're in a no win situation. US/EU/NATO is not getting pulled into this for anything short of a full Russian invasion.
Current ukrainian government? East? west? elected?
How about the people? Actually I wonder what the easter people are thinking, we have no serious report about what the population is thinking.
Anyway they've been played, they stupidly let ethnic tensions blind them from what they had in common vs their differences.
It is a trick that works really great from the Middle East to ex Yougoslavia, going by Africa. I guess that is what the masses get for being dumb... We can put all the blames we want on the oligarcs of this or that side but in the end may the masses be less stupid... We all know very well it is a pipe dream.
Re; Anyway they've been played, they stupidly let ethnic tensions blind them from what they had in common vs their differences.
This statement could just as well apply to the massive push for racial devision going on in the US right now. From the very top of .gov down to the bottom feeding proxy MSM, blacks are being portrayed as "victims".
US .gov is actively working to devide the people along racial and economic lines. Who will reap the crop that grows from the vile seeds being cultivated?
We need not look to some far off land to see a population being "played"
For sure, think of positive action.
In the mean time the difference in std of iving between black/latino and white/asia grew by a lot.
There is also the gay's rights and so on.
Divide and conquer, wedge issue, a really old game that has been brought close to being an art form by some of the brightest minds :)
Coming to US soon enough.
Mexicans vs Rednecks
Blacks vs WASPS neo-protestants
Asians vs everyone elese
I guess those civilian separatists picked up the SAM missiles to shoot down helicoptors from..... (add your best guess).
No doubt someone will come to Ukraine's rescue:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6DZP3fYurqU
It's public knowlege that several Ukranistan military units switched sides, so could be their equipment. Additionally, the armories of the captured law enforcement buildings need to be considered.
Steal Ukraines gold. Use gold to back 30or so billion fiat. Enslave "the people with loans. In the process kill tens of thousands. Yes, just another bankers war.
Use gold to back 30or so billion fiat
???
And Dracula is busy planting his spring garlic bulbs.
If you skipped this, or stopped reading after a few pages and put it off til later, you might want to go back and read it, or put it on your weekend list:
"Battleground Ukraine: A Comprehensive Summary (From A Russian Perspective)"
Submitted by Tyler Durden on 04/30/2014 - 20:04 Courtesy of socalbeach, Via WikiSpooks,
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-04-30/battleground-ukraine-comprehens...
It's rich with detail about the forces in play in Ukraine (what a rat's nest of crime, intrigue and conflicting empires and banking houses!) and who represents or leads them. Deeply revealing of how the people around Putin see things. A "must read" for anyone not satisfied with sound bites, chants and cheers. Worth it to pass it on to anyone you know who seriously wants to understand what's going on in Ukraine and what can be expected from Putin's Russia.
That would have to be a rush to shoot the chopter down. Better than 4th of july bottle rocket fights for sure.
So if they don't get the 17billion.....since it's already been earmarked.......does that mean they'll get to do whatever they want with it elsewhere like buy Obama a new yacht etc?
Killing people is not nearly the rush you think it is.
Remember back in the election when Obama said "“The 1980s are now calling to ask for their foreign policy back because, you know, the Cold War’s been over for 20 years.”? Yeah, that was awesome...
And gold and silver are getting smashed. Some things never get old.
So like Ukraine is the new 1900's colonial territory part of the planet with borders set by revolutionaries, monarchs, and jealous alliances
.
Ukraine is gunna need more watter cannons to keep the people in their fucking seats to watch this
I personally hope it is elements of the Russian military shooting at these fascist scumbags. The West wants to plunder Ukraine's economy AND use it as a military launchpad against Russia? Fuck that!