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Net Worth Of College Grads With Student Debt Is 20% Less Than High School Grads With No Debt
Yesterday we provided a detailed breakdown of the cost aspects of a college education, particularly for young people who have no choice but to fund their education with student debt, a key part of the equation that the San Fran Fed in its particular cost-benefit "analysis" of college education avoided.
There is much information in the post, but one particular aspect of the Pew analysis that the article was based on, bears repeating and highlighting for all those less than "1%" young Americans debating whether a college education is worth the tens if not hundreds of thousands of dollars in student loans: the median net worth of "young" households, those where the head is younger than 40 years old, is $8,700, or 20% less than not college educated households with no student debt.
Why is this notable? Because as the WSJ reported concurrently, the class of 2014 is the most indebted ever.
"The average Class of 2014 graduate with student-loan debt has to pay back some $33,000, according to an analysis of government data by Mark Kantrowitz, publisher at Edvisors, a group of web sites about planning and paying for college. Even after adjusting for inflation that’s nearly double the amount borrowers had to pay back 20 years ago."
It gets worse: "A little over 70% of this year’s bachelor’s degree recipients are leaving school with student loans, up from less than half of graduates in the Class of 1994."
It gets even worse: "From 2005 to 2012, average student loan debt has jumped 35%, adjusting for inflation, while the median salary has actually dropped by 2.2%. If that continues debt burdens could start to become more unwieldy."
Finally, for anyone confused why aside from foreign olligarchs and Wall Street firms buying up high-end and/or distressed real estate, the US housing market will likely never recover, look no further than student debt:
A report this week from the New York Fed looked at how student debt is affecting entry into the housing market. Researchers Meta Brown, Sydnee Caldwell, and Sarah Sutherland found that a smaller proportion of people at age 30 have mortgages that at any time in a decade. But for the first time starting in 2012, having student loans made it less likely that a 30-year-old would have a mortgage.
Now, 30 still is pretty young and perhaps the student debt is just causing workers to put off home purchases for a little while. Separate research from Richard Fry at the Pew Research Center, looked at the debt burdens and net worth of those with and without student debt. Those data showed that for people under 40, the same proportion of college graduates with and without student debt also had mortgage debt. But those data are a little older — they were collected in 2010 — and they include people with much lower student debt burdens. And they also show that people under 40 with student loans had more other debt — credit cards and auto loans — and a lower net worth than their peers without student debt. As student debt gets heavier, it’s also likely to increase those other burdens, and make it harder to afford a house.
To summarize: More hope for the future than actual change now, more debt; more debt, less net worth; less net worth, less current income; less current income, less investment in the economy and future; less investment in the economy, less actual change and even more hope. Rinse. Repeat.
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That which cannot be sustained, won't be, period.
same as it ever was...
(It would appear that there is more than one sucker born every minute...)
I'v got two living with me and i can let you know for sure it's less than 20% net!
Another idiotic story from Tyler on college, playing to the anti-education crowd. What Tyler doesn't mention in the story is of course more important than what is mentioned. The pew story (not linked by Tyler) goes into it in detail:
http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2014/05/14/young-adults-student-debt-and-...
Pew also did another story of the other side of the equation, how much more income college educated earn than non-college educated and how less likely they are to be in poverty:
http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2014/02/11/the-rising-cost-of-not-going-t...
Not to mention, in a wolrd of globalization wtf is a high school education going to amount to? I guess that's why a large segment of Americans pray that if they can keep dem evil immigrants out it'll all be fine...
Anti-education crowd? Does that mean thinking only 18 year olds that are maybe 1/2 or 1 standard deviation above the median should attempt college? Then yes I am. Does that mean I am against the educational industrial complex and banksters running a sham against our youth?
Good college material starts at maybe IQ=110. And that would would be your dingbells. Maybe 120 for engineering students and so forth. Everyone say 108 and below should be thinking 2 year degree or some sort of trade. Anyone below say 95 should probably stop at about the 8th grade. College should be for really bright 16 year olds. The last 2 years of HS is basically worthless but keeps teachers employed.
The US has pissed so much money down a rat hole. Why don't we stop with the progressive dream that if we just spend a little more money and hire just another teacher or two the world will miraculously transform itself. How many studies have shown that Head Start doesn't improve outcomes. Do we rethink things? No. We just spend more on the program.
Sorry, but thems the facts :)
Good college material starts at maybe IQ=110. And that would would be your dingbells. Maybe 120 for engineering students and so forth. Everyone say 108 and below should be thinking 2 year degree or some sort of trade. Anyone below say 95 should probably stop at about the 8th grade.
I see the propagandists have had their way with you. First, IQ test may be meaningful and may be mostly useless - jury is out.
But here's the dirty secret (something - unnamed ethnic groups - have noticed and exploited): education attainment has little to do with intelligence and a whole lot to do with effort. Math is one of those things where people are like 'oh you got to be smart to do math' What a crock of shit! Anyone can do it.
The only part which is related to intelligence is that some people don't have to put in much effort and still understand everything. That's a very very small percentage of the population, everyone else it's effort.
The (unnamned ethnic groups) don't sit around debating intelligence, they go for it. And that's why they're taking over the post-sec schools and also why they're taking over a lot of the best jobs.
While you're out here talking eugenics, a whole bunch of 'stupid' people are getting good jobs which is pretty unfortunate because it's a lot of wasted potential on folks who may not excel at IQ tests but are way 'smarter' than those who do.
If you play their game of low interest rate loan indebtedness and serfdom you have only yourself to blame. Screw the system! Build something of lasting value outside this higher education racket! Oplerno.com is an answer. I for one am sick and tired of not being able to choose my instructor and evaluate the class before I pay my money. I am also tired of senior faculty and administration making six figures and expecting to be paid by transfer payments from one generation to another.
This rise in debt is preventing change in society and technological/political/social improvement. It is the hundred pound weight that is being used to keep many of us in our place at the bottom of society and under the control of government. Rebel by joining oplerno.com as a student or faculty member.
just to paint the picture...
average college grad w/ student debt has $33k debt which is to begin to be repaid upon graduation or cessation of attending school but after "grace" period (typically 6 mo's) expires.
$380/mo for 10yrs @ 6.8% ($4560 / yr) or $344/mo for 10yrs @ 4.6% ($4128 / yr)
$252/mo for 20yrs @ 6.8% ($3024 / yr)
average salary workng retail ($20k / yr or $1666 / mo pre-tax)
average salary w/ "real job) ($27,500 / yr or $2290 / mo pre-tax)
college campuses will be converted into assisted living facilities for the boomers. they're done just like newspapers, film developers, video stores, book publishers, real estate agents, auto dealers, car rentals, hotels, restaurants...
and they will get free college courses and be treated for STDs.
Your are correct about effort, but wrong about intelligence and that anyone can do math if they try. What you are talking about is arithmetic and not mathematics. I can tell that you have not taken much math at the collegiate level of any. I have a feeling that you might fib and tell me about differential equations and the linear algebra courses you took. Most college graduates in the past 30myears have never taken a real college level course because they are not required. If they are required to take a course or two it is really something that was taught in HS. If you believe otherwise, you are clueless.
The reason a real math class has not been required for most degrees is because most cannot think in the abstract terms required. It has to do with intelligence, which many progressives like to brush aside because it makes them uncomfortable to ponder such things.
The reason the unnamed groups you mention are excelling is because it has been shown that they have a higher IQ that others. Also the ones you see here are the cream of the crop. There are billions that are not as bright overseas.
A small percentage of the population can master 8th grade algebra and it has nothing to do with how hard you try.
I am not talking eugenic you cunt, I am pointing out that people should not be wasting their time and money, plus a little of my money pursuing things that will not pay off for them or society.
What you are talking about is arithmetic and not mathematics. I can tell that you have not taken much math at the collegiate level of any. I have a feeling that you might fib and tell me about differential equations and the linear algebra courses you took. Most college graduates in the past 30myears have never taken a real college level course because they are not required.
What is a 'real' math class. Calculus? Anyone can do calculus. Linear algebra, maybe not but I've seen in my estimation unintelligent people do it. And very few industries require that kind of math, and even those which do on paper don't in practice.
The reason a real math class has not been required for most degrees is because most cannot think in the abstract terms required.
The abstract is useful but the math I doubt, it has very narrow application and even when you may use it you'll really be using mathematica anyway. This is actually something I've wondered about a lot though, why some people can do it and some people struggle a lot. I've ruled out intelligence but there's something there, if I could crack the code I'd be a billionaire.
The reason the unnamed groups you mention are excelling is because it has been shown that they have a higher IQ that others.
Again wrong.
I am not talking eugenic you cunt
That's exactly what you're talking.
plus a little of my money pursuing things that will not pay off for them or society
You're right, an educated population has never 'paid off' for society as a whole.
"Anyone can do calculus"... There you go folks, is that a brilliant quote or what?
"Anyone can do calculus"... There you go folks, is that a brilliant quote or what?
Sorry, you're right - only geniuses like me can do it. Everyone else give up now and become a ditch digger. Bowdown bitchez!!
https://www.khanacademy.org/math/differential-calculus/limits_topic/limi...
Dis shit iz impossible, don't even try!! First get an IQ test!!
fuck algebra and calculus. geometry is where it's at. that's why they don't teach it
There's a lot behind what you say; Geometry; classical Euclidean Geometry, is what teachs human beings how to think logically; and to value and trust the work product of their own minds; t heir own correct conclusions from the available information. It's removal is a great aid in producing the "other directed" creatures we have now; who believe they can "vote" on reality.
Buckminster Fuller and Leonardo Da Vinci anyone? Two polymaths with a fondness of geometry.
platonic solids. sacred geometry. the flower of life. vitruvian man
I have a pretty high opinion of you as a poster, because what you say generally seems well thought out but you are onto a loser with this one. You're speaking from a position of ignorance and throwing up a Khan Academy link is ridiculous*.
Calculus gets pretty complicated later on, even at a highschool stage. Next, consider that calculus is just the bare nuts and bolts of mathematics. At degree level there are rigorous conditions of proof and much of the abstract thought which goes into the formulation of original mathematical concepts is horrendously difficult to grasp. Some mathematical proofs are over 100 pages long and are enormously complex to understand. Some proofs have taken hundreds of years and thousands of mathematicians to solve, even with computers.
I know you want to believe "Good Will Hunting" is representative of the math field in general, ie: any guy with a mop and a love of numbers can just waltz into an ivy league class and blow everyone out of the water. It's not the case though. Yes those prodigies do exist, but they are one in a billion.
*To put this link into perspective: even in the UK which is currently the laughing stock of the European higher education (because it's a big debt ponzi scheme) a student with above average mathematical proficiency could be learning the material from the link you posted by the age of 16. Some of the more advanced students will be learning that at 15, and my second generation Chinese friend, who graduated LSE with a degree in econometrics and mathematics (now working for Goldman, incidentally) could do this level of math at the age of 13.
I have a pretty high opinion of you as a poster, because what you say generally seems well thought out but you are onto a loser with this one. You're speaking from a position of ignorance and throwing up a Khan Academy link is ridiculous.
I guess I'm not explaining my point well.. If you want to be a mathematician or a physicist, must you be a genius? Yes. A friend of mine got a phd in straight physics and realized too late he's not a genius and it's not a great job field if you aren't one. That said, a family member is a physicist + makes good money and is certianly not a genius lol
All I'm saying is, I am quite certain outside of hard science you don't need to be a genius to make college highly worthwhile and not many disciplines require advanced math / physics. There's a lot of propaganda about how college science is only for smart people which is total bullshit. It puts people in boxes where 'oh you didn't breeze through math in high school? sorry, you're an idiot! to the trenches with you...' And people really believe it, which is probably why a lot of folks give up on science.
EDIT: to your edit, I see you point out more about the khan link whcih you seem to be hung up about. My point was simply that for a lot of disciplines that's as far as you need to go (if that). And there are 10 year olds who can do advanced physics, so what? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taylor_Wilson
Yeah. I will admit the link irked me a little. It's an insult to trivialize such a complex and broad field, I am sure that some mathematicians frequent these boards. Tossing up a link like that is like me jumping into an operating theatre and offering to take over from the chief surgeon because I managed to successfully remove a plastic bone during a game of "Operation". Or offering to take over a heart surgery because I saw a related documentary on the discovery channel. In both cases we would be underqualified to fully appreciate the time and dedication that a particular expert has put into perfecting their knowledge in a subject.
And yeah, there are some spectacularly young people managing to do big things with their intellect, but like I said.. these prodigies (which my Asian friend is not, incidentally, he is just a very smart guy) are not the norm.
I'm smarter than 99.9% of the European or "white" population or whatever you want to call it; but not of the Chinese/ Japanese population. They average significantly higher in higher mental function than we do. Your Asian friend may be a rather quiet, un-assertive IQ 140; this is fairly common. They're sleepers because of their culture they don't try to dominate conversations or "out-smart" people; but they end up at the professorship end of the Math and Hard Sciences courses. And they don't call them Hard Sciences, for nothing !! I used to be a Uni. approved tutor for third year engineering students when I was a 17 year old freshman; to help make lunch money. They were around 125-127's; and struggling hard to finish in the bottom third of their class. My EE professor looked around the lecture theatre the first day of class; and said, "after the mid-term every third seat in here will be empty". If you want to make it to the final test; start fighting now, and don't slow down".
There's a lot of propaganda about how college science is only for smart people which is total bullshit. It puts people in boxes where 'oh you didn't breeze through math in high school? sorry, you're an idiot! to the trenches with you...' And people really believe it, which is probably why a lot of folks give up on science.
One final addendum on this, I certainly do agree that many relatively intelligent people lack the necessary work ethic to achieve their full potential. There is likely an elitist scientific culture in certain circles too, as well propaganda. But science is a relatively unforgiving subject. Think about it, to truly love science you have to be a masochist. You study, observe, think, hypothesize and then attempt to prove, or disprove. Ultimately pure science is like trying to fill a bottomless hole. You pose a question, discover an answer after rigorous testing and then many new questions arise.
Also, scientific mindsets tend to be highly critical and analytical types. They are certainly not immune to cognitive dissonance. It is quite easy to pale in comparison to one brilliant peer, realize just how stupid you actually are (in the bigger scheme) and lose hope in the subject. Compare this to something like art which emphasizes "you are a unique and beautiful snowflake", you can certainly see why it is unattractive for a culture with individualistic mindsets.
When you consider the message that society tends to send scientists today: sit in a lab, think, work and maybe, just maybe we'll give you a nobel in 30 years.. it is not surprising many top minds accumulate in finance, banking and related sectors. They can live a better life for less pain. Quantitative financial positions are littered with disenchanted scientific minds.
I'm sorry. I disagree with this. I am dating, and have worked around many mathematicians. They are fucking smart people. End of.
Maybe I am biased because I am not in a watered down, commoditized degree system where the mean standard is so low that your only prerequisite to get onto a degree course is to have a pulse and be literate.
Are engineering degrees, science degrees and other difficult, high-end degrees worth it still? Probably. Does being dedicated count for a lot? Absolutely. Nobody is getting a serious degree without putting in the hours. And yes, people probably don't have to be north of a 130 IQ to study some subjects, provided the are willing to do the slog.
Things like mathematics, physics and econometrics are not attainable by the majority of the population. At least not in a solid institution with respectable standards.
Edit: In fact, I would go on to argue that economics and econometrics are actually underrated as subjects. The number of shills and morons who hit the headlines in economics gives the subject a bad name. The fact is that the field is multidisciplinary. Many of the dupes you see (like Krugman et al.) stick to things which are written courses and have a historical grounding. Some of the more mathematical options are far more challenging. I would put some of the mathematics at just slightly below the higher reaches of the stuff that I studied in Chemistry. The big difference comes in the scientific process and the critical thinking. Economics often lacks the latter. Take it from someone who has studied chemistry, economics and worked internationally in the private sector under the age of 25. A mathematics degree is way beyond my scope. My girlfriend runs rings around me.
There';s nothing to be sorry about; you're right; and he's full of shit; and basically everyone with any honest relationship to reality knows this.
No, you're the one who has drunk the kool-aid. IQ tests work perfectly; there's no real study anywhere that disputes this. IQ is inherited; it's genetic; it's life long, and it correllates beautifully with success in life. Since you have no idea what you're talking about; I'll just give you one concrete example; people who test at 90 on standardized IQ tests never learn to read and comprehend at normal adult levels and speeds. Never. T hat means not with any amount of tutoring. "Headstart" was a complete failure; comvered up and obfuscated, of course, by the usual suspects; the government contracted "researchers"; but the actual results are out there. So, according to you, you're pretty good at analysis, engineering math, including imaginary numbers, and Integral Calculus, right? or, if you wanted to; you could knock it out in a couple of week-ends. Have fun jacking yourself off with your completely government approved brainwashing program. If you don't understand what IQ means, ask someone who has one; like me. I'll be glad to explain it to you.
If there are "folks" who don't excel at IQ tests, but are way 'smarter" than those who do.--" Point out one. Just one. anywhere. IQ tests work; there are many of them that cross correllate, (they all work about the same), some don't even use words; the people you're using for your argument do not exist. I repeat; They Do Not Exist. A certified Welder is an excellent job, often Unionized, with benefits; and does not require a significant IQ. Your mention of "getting good jobs" is meaningless in this context. People who waste their time getting liberal arts degress, or God Forbid, Environmental Science degrees, which doesn't reaquire any IQ at all; are wasting a lot of resources. The general idea that "everyone should go to college", simplified to an absurdity for the sake of argument, but you know what I'm referring to; is completely counterproductive. the original idea that not everyone would go to HIgh School was the National program in the 20's and 30's; Most of the general population can't pass a 1928 High School Entrance Exam. And yes, there was such a thing. From there on; it's all dumbing down; until we arrive where we are now. At absolute, bottomless ignorance.
If there are "folks" who don't excel at IQ tests, but are way 'smarter'
I.e. someone who has a very high iq but may be rather blind or 'stupid' in other areas. Not that iq isn't an indicator of intelligence but that on its own it may be meaningless. Right now around the world a whole lot of extremely smart people are working on biological weapons which could easily wipe out life on earth, others develop drugs which fuck up children’s brains on a hunch that it's for the best.
These sorts of high iqs in application are highly questionable. GMO is another one, some of my friends go on and on about the necessary benefits and then I turn on an interview with a farmer who's like, that's all well and good but can you explain wtf is happening to my crops??
Are you someone who thinks the people running the fed are not high iq? IMF?
The general idea that "everyone should go to college", simplified to an absurdity for the sake of argument, but you know what I'm referring to; is completely counterproductive.
In the world we exist in now agw etc. how could it possibly be counterproductive to have everyone with a basic understanding of science?
There isn't any AGW. Leaning a few buzz-words and sophmore statistics just makes you fodder for the propaganda machine; only the people with serious hard science credentials, and; and, who've taken the time and trouble to research the actual facts under the bullshit storm, know that there is no AGW. Most American College Graduates Do Not have a basic understanding of science. You seem to have wandered from the point of the discussion which is; is it counterproductive to send people with IQ's of 100-110 to higher education. And the answer is yes; it's counterproductive. As is much of the offered course material. The question is not whether all persons with significant IQ's are politically correct angels. For your information, Ben Bernanke is about half as smart as I am. You really don't understand this subject very well.
For your information, Ben Bernanke is about half as smart as I am. You really don't understand this subject very well.
Ah ok, so you're a delusional troll. Got it.
Bernanke was regarded by both Friedman, his professor, and Friedman's wife, as a brown noser, who was completely un-original and merrely a professor-parroter. Friedman was very smart; but belonged to a deluded cult; Bernanke is merely a functionary.
Your stated belief that IQ IS an indicator of intelligence; but may be meaningless; is itself meaningless; and that's being kind. Intelligence is what separates Humans from Chimpanzees; and you think a measure of this function could possible be meaningless.? Unfortunately, you merely reveal that you cannot think coherently, at all; and therefore are a typical product of the modern educational system; congratulations.
Not that I should feed goofball trolls who claim to double Bernanke's intelligence... one last bit.
Humans who developed the nuke were at the very high end of the intelligence spectrum, yet their brilliance nearly (and still possible) lead to annihilation of the human race. So when God (or whoever) looks down at the end I figure they'd say something like:
"Well, sure, they destroyed themselves completely... but gawd damn if they didn't do it in a clever way!!"
Intelligence can be overrated.
Your argument is a very common one; but it is pitifully stupid. Everything you have and use every day was developed for you and given to you by people who scored in the top 10%, and above, in standardized IQ tests. Including, probably your life; since most children died in infancy before the age of scientific medicine; which is brought to you by my special peers; the very very smart. Intelligence cannot be overrated; what you're struggling to grasp is that it has to function in a healthy society with useful goals. If the Nazi state had developed atomic weapons; then you'd have something to complain about.
"very high IQ but rather 'stupid' in other areas". You just don't get it. Of course, this is because you don't want to get it; I'll refrain from pointing out why you don't want to get it. There is no "Other Area". The human brain is modular; only some people can become professional concert instrumentalists; but none of them have normal IQ's. Not one. General Intelligence is General; and refers, most significantly; to the ability to learn; it also correllates strongly with memory. There are a lot of very smart Automobile Mechanics, and lot of very smart precision machinists; but absolutely no very good dumb Automobile Mechanics,and absolutely no dumb precision machinists.
The human brain is modular; only some people can become professional concert instrumentalists; but none of them have normal IQ's.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savant_syndrome
Anyway, arguing with mentally deranged people online is not that interesting..
James Cole is wright! I myself personally got duel degrees in Comparitive Indegeonous Tourist Trades and Executive Auto Detailing with only $98,000.00 dollars in debt while living in gram Grams basement on her computer!
I come you house, value your world wide shot glass colection, make your Fiat 500 emaculate, same day!
As always, thanks you very much Univecity of Pheonnix!
James_Cole Another idiotic story from Tyler on college, playing to the anti-education crowd. What Tyler doesn't mention in the story is of course more important than what is mentioned. The pew story (not linked by Tyler) goes into it in detail:
http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2014/05/14/young-adults-student-debt-and-...
Pew also did another story of the other side of the equation, how much more income college educated earn than non-college educated and how less likely they are to be in poverty:
http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2014/02/11/the-rising-cost-of-not-going-t...
Not to mention, in a wolrd of globalization wtf is a high school education going to amount to? I guess that's why a large segment of Americans pray that if they can keep dem evil immigrants out it'll all be fine...
----
Perhaps you should delve into the studies you cite more carefully.
Median household debt for those with student debt is higer. And have you considered the possible compound interest one might have if invested instead of borrowed? That alone could finance a person's retirement.
Perhaps you should delve into the studies you cite more carefully.
Perhaps Tyler should be less disingenuous?
Among the college educated, those lacking student debt had a median wealth of $64,700 in 2010.4 By comparison those owing student debt had a median wealth of only $8,700. Among households headed by a young adult without a bachelor’s degree, those with no student debt had a median net worth of $10,900, while those with student debt had about a tenth of that ($1,200).
http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2014/05/14/section-1-student-debt-and-ove...
The typical total indebtedness of young, college-educated households owing student debt ($137,010) is nearly twice that of their counterparts not owing student debt ($73,250). These debts include all types of debt: mortgage debt, vehicle loans and credit card debt, as well as student debt.
J_C => Too stupid to be worth commenting...
Proof:
Grade limit per reader when # --> oo = -1
QED !
But what do you mean Physics? This textbook I own said ZIRP and economic growth can continue to infinity? /sarc
Right now bankers are buying up tracts of arable land with their bonuses and flogging the log to their calculations of how many debt slaves they can cram in their new shanty-town developments.
Little Jimmy needs to go to college or he will never amount to anything!
Autodidacticism Bitchez!
The sad reality is our Arts and Humanities depts in the universities have become nothing more the indoctrination centers for the libtards. It is their perverse center of worship. Who is going to educate our future masses when the current crop is nothing more than brain washed? Yeah, you know the answer.....
...uuuuh..........what?.........
Peak stupidity. Thanks .gov
and peak poor, 8700 in net worth at age 40.... better have a plan better than this one if you ever want to retire...
dude you totally stole my screen name and pic...lame.
The rest of the country now matches Chicago's Hyde Park area. Obamaville.
Unfortunately, peak stupidity is nowhere close to peaking...
....would be interesting to see what a graduate of a tech high school makes 4 years after getting a plumbers or electricians cert.
about 1/2 what they made 6 years ago but still a lot better than flippin' burgers or sackin' groceries.
AND... just to add insult to injury, not only will this cohort have to purchase health care derivatives (health insurance), but they also are being charged a fixed 7% interest on those loans.
I have the 2005 loans that are Prime + 0. I'm glad no one was looking out for my well-being by charging me a fixed 7% all this time. Those "fixed rates are safer, doncha know."
Like the rest of the ponziconomy; UNSUSTAINABLE.
The unsustainable meme is pretty popular on ZH.
I don't sign onto it.
Gov'ts can change rules, definitions, shoot people, frame them with rape in a hotel, do anything they want to keep a configuration in place that retains their power.
If numbers on a screen threaten to destroy their power, they will change the numbers, and anyone hurt by that who threatens some action that might stop it will be killed.
We were all sure that Greek default was going to trigger swaps and destroy The System. The EU just shrugged, redefined what Greek debt was and forced debt holders to accept it, and denied them the right to take any action that would trigger swaps. Collateral damage doesn't matter. This is how Cyprus was destroyed -- they held those Greek bonds. The EU destroyed them and didn't care. It was necessary, you see.
This will go on until oil destroys them. And soon. Amid the monumetally loud abundance meme . . . $102.
"This will go on until oil destroys them." - so things cannot be sustained after all.
< shocker >
Sounds to me like the best part is all we have to do is sit back with a dependenable tribe and let them (governments) destroy themselves...
awesome, nice to see that crash is optimistic.
On a long eonugh timeline...
LONG FEMA CAMPS.
Everytime I see a story about the newest graduating class at the end of each school year, I can't help but think about how crushed they are about to be.
I'm still in contact with a few people who attend college. They really think that things are going to be alright and that the job market is "actually pretty good". My goodness the colleges are feeding these kids a steaming pile...
Learn Chinese and take business. That's the ticket.
We need a lot of Ceritfied Welders, and a lot of Registered Nurses; just sayin. Yeah, you gotta suit up and you gotta show up, but you do get paid. I used to have a friend who had Masters in Math.; and a very high IQ; instead of going for the Phd. He became a long haul truck driver. He had the ability to form a heads up display on the inner surface of the windshield and work on equations and math problems on this mentally projected screen while he cruised thru the empty reachs of the middle states. He was a good truck driver; he just realized he didn't need any faculty commitees or Department meetings. I met him at a futures trading seminar; another job for smart loners; he was doing just fine at that too.
I can remember when it hit me. Fall semester of my senior year...I still remember the feeling of hopelessness and what I had just wasted in terms of time and money.
It was shocking when I was told I needed to "intern" with some company, give up my labor for nothing for 12 months so that I might have a 30% chance at the firm hiring me...
The hundreds of unreturned emails later were just nails in the coffin. Luckily I have a family business in an agricultural staple to fall back on...had I known then what I know now, I would have spent 2 years and got a tech school education...although the 4 year "experience" was somewhat worth it...gave me a better understanding of the world were forced to live in.
I agree. The parking lots are overflowing with kids driving their parent's cars to college, deep in debt and thinking how they're going to get that brand new car, own their own home and live the life they think is owed to them because they have a degree. Upon graduating, they find themselves not accepting lower paying jobs because it triggers their school loan repayment, at least that's what I'm hearing.
Then at age 25 they are still living at home making $25k a year if they're lucky. Heck, there a lot of 50-60 year olds that moved back in with their parents. Sure there are exceptions, but I hear the same story over and over from my co-workers. Many "children" in their 30's still rely on Mom and Dad.
What planet is James_Cole living on?
Dow 20,000 .
Zimbabwe hit 50,000. The Federal Reserve keeps printing it has to go somewhere. More 125% LTV home loans.
How long before nobody will accept the US dollar anymore? Obamaville can't even afford to build it's own rockets anymore. The US has become one huge welfare country.
The US United nation of cirporate and public welfare.
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That's irrelevent. Your typical college grad will earn much more money over a lifetime than your typical high school grad.
There are all sorts of reasons that is no longer true.
Maybe the most smash-in-the-face one is their lifetimes are only about 10-15 yrs more from now.
This has been proven to be untrue for almost all college degrees that aren't STEM degrees, with a few exceptions. (and if you can somehow manage a postgrad degree without debt, then that works, too.)
A while ago ZH posted some of the research, and again, outside of STEM by far the best bang for the buck is a community college associates degree today, assuming it's done without loans (which is in fact doable if you work full time at a near minimum wage job still.)
Basically "has a degree" has turned into an employer check-off item, and a AA lets them check that box. While an AA from a community college is basically an advanced high school diploma, it's still a degree.
They would rather hire H1Bs. Their much cheaper and obligated to corporations.
i'm amazed this argument is still being used. first, its no longer empirically true. second, selection bias renders it meaningless. as a general rule, people who went to college were smarter and more disciplined than those who did not. so the former would always be more likely to out-earn the latter, regardless of whether they have a piece of paper or not.
and i think the tide is turning now. all things being equal, i know i'd hire a 20 year old that chose to educate himself, via MOOC's or internships or whatever, over someone who was dumb enough to pay for an MBA.
and i think the tide is turning now. all things being equal, i know i'd hire a 20 year old that chose to educate himself, via MOOC's or internships or whatever, over someone who was dumb enough to pay for an MBA.
And how many people do you typically hire in a year and at what starting salary? Because I don't know a single person in their 20s - 30s without college education working at a half decent job $. Unless everyone is lyign on their LNKD.
You don't know many people then and are living in the past. An 18 year old working for $9 in __________ can move to North Dakota, learn a trade in the oil industry and in a few years (even first year) make more many than their college degree counterparts deep in debt. It is hard work, but it pays off. My son went two years to college and began hearing horror stories of his jam packed school graduates landing $10/hr jobs after getting 4 year degrees. He quit after his second year in 2013 and is now in ND earning a good living and will have skills to take him through life.
OTOH, many 50 and older folks with degrees making very good money are now out on the street since the crash happened in 2008/2009 and either had to start over or accept reality and work their remaining years before retirement at large reductions in pay. It happened to 3 of my siblings and/or their spouses.
There aren't enough jobs being created to support the millions of graduates in most fields of study. The medical field was once considered a sure thing to land a good paying job for the millions graduating from college. Now hospitals are laying off and cutting back. Thanks ObaMaoCare.
Me? I'm 52 and making good money without a degree, was laid off 3 times since 1980 but always found work. Sure, my salary may be peanuts to you, but I raised 2 children, put one through college and as I stated the 2nd one quit last year because the job market is horrible so he opted to go where the jobs are at.
A college degree is no guarantee of anything.
Talking averages, there are exceptions sure. If you can make a go of it without a degre good, but for most people it's very tough out there without one.
What's typical?
It seems all the young people I talk to are getting degrees in things like "Counciling" or "sociology" or some other "feel good" field.
Good luck finding a job
The feel good degree alllows college grads to get liad and spend spring break getting fucked and drunk and explore alternate lifestyles. They must be proud of themselves for that
True that.
And they also take this weak socially oriented stuff because trhey are too stupid to take engineering or computer science courses. Most high schools are have been co-opted by the "feel good" education establishment.
The "System" is coming face to face with reality. IQ100 is Normal. If you want to send everyone to college you have to have a really, really, insignificant course of study; it's just a fact. Engineering and Computer Science for the top 8-10%; that's it. There's nothing you can do about it. A sane society would refuse to waste resources on people who are going to waste them in "college". But it's not a sane society; it's a politically correct society. Doom Awaits.
I would say top 4% to 5%.
Yeah, you're probably right; I didn't bother to meditate on the Bell Shaped Curve before blasting off.
I was going to write 2% to 3%.
I talked to a girl that studied gaming psychology this weekend....
a 4 year study...
and when you ask them what it's about it was: making games to teach people stuff...
really? you need a education for that?
And how many to they need? There where over 80 people in her class...
And they don't actually make the games, stupid online flash games but just advice how you teach the people stuff with gaming...
now... I might be getting old... but you teach apes through games... people learn if they want to. if they don't want to and need a game to learn it, you fire them.
State and county employees; welfare/ justice system. employment for life; benes. retirement. Except it's going to crash, or course.
When?
Sorry, don't know. Retirement and medical funds for local .gov deadweights, coiunty and state, are getting in deeper trouble all the time; the Math. looks impossible for someone retiring in ten years; but weird shit does happen.
Welcome to dumbfuck town.
Mayor Jame Cole.
Want to know why kids are stupid these days? Look at the requirements for educators that have them for 12 years. Theyre acomplices to the scam and they either dont know it or do not care.
Want to know why kids are stupid these days? Look at the requirements for educators that have them for 12 years. Theyre acomplices to the scam and they either dont know it or do not care.
I know of a technology company that perdfers not to hire college grads. Their cheaper and stuck there.
Edward Snowden is a high school dropout; but he won the genetic lottery. He has an IQ; and he was passionate about computer science; so he learned it. He had an excellent job; and excellent morals, and in a functional world would have brought down the Government. Unfortunately, it;s not a functional world.
When I was in university (~3-4 years ago) my perception was that most of my peers were not very smart. They were pumping hundreds of idiotic students through fields that I can't see having many jobs, and many of the courses were all about memorization.
I feel sorry for some of the teachers who aren't able to teach properly - heaven forbid they flunk someone or say something politically incorrect in class and lose their job.
It's a scary time for the world when stupid people are breeding out of control and all forms of inequality, elitism, and intelligence are being ousted at their hands (latest victim: university as elitism in education). Anyone who wants to get rid of TPTB must consider what to replace them with, because I don't think we want this equalizing majority to be in power.
Typical college "man": 5'-10", 230 lbs, can do 4 push ups. Wears Abercrombie and Fitch tee shirt, cargo shorts and flip flops when there is snow on the ground. Backwards baseball cap. Does not know what an integer is but is awesome at video games. Aspires to have a sweet job in banking but will end up spinning a sign along the sidewalk for tax service business.
Typical college "woman": 5'-3", 160 lbs, can do 9 girl push ups. has blonde highlights, mani and pedicure, hairless waxed vag, coach bag, one size too small tee shirt, two size too small shorts, exposed muffin top and belly button, constantly stares at i phone with pink case. has slept with more guys than has existed for years on earth. Aspires to get married to a cool dude with a sweet job in banking but will end up working at the dress barn.
This country is fucked. Good day.
Awesome...totally awesome. Alright FredFlintstone.
Yep; and that's why they don';t belong in College. Take a look at the typical MIT student; or Reed College; but don't try to understand anything the 18 year olds are learning; because you won't be able to. this is the way it has to be. Nature is elitist.
the fat girls who wear tight clothes have always deeply, deeply bothered me. just no self respect. back to the topic at hand.
i went to a top university, still drank and partied a lot, shouldve studied more, econ/finance. moved to china after i graduated in 2010. learned more chinese in my first 3 months than in 4 years at school. learned more at my job and starting my own company (on the side) in the first month than 4 years at school. learned more about economics reading hayek and von mises before bed than my during my entire $200k education. learned more about politics and the actual state of affairs from ron paul videos than any classes i took. also leanred how to piss of my friends, family, and anyone in my general vacinity from reading zero hedge. i still drink, go out, and (rarely) get laid. looking back, college was bascially glorified summer camp with coke, booze, free HPV infrections and counsellors who dont give a shit what you do. i had a great time. luckily wealthy parents footed the bill. cant imagine why anyone in their right mind would go today.
ive convinced my baby brother to go abroad, either to germany or china, for college instead of opting for the tremendous waste of time, resources, and brain cells that is college in america.
Net Worth is one of the easiest things to manipulate to show what you want. You get to subtract debt, both student loans, autos and mortgages. You get to pull one set for 30 year olds and another set for 40 year olds. You get to include or exclude recent graduates. Be honest and show the average salaries at those same data points. Show the average mortgage. Show the value of 401K plans - which is another thing you can count or omit from your Net Worth calculation. ZHers are smart enough to handle the truth if you give them all the facts. Cherry picking data is something the government does.
The class war continues as the oligarchy/plutocracy becomes increasingly entrenched.
I never went to University and I have more gold than all my friends put together that did and always will. Who's the fucking moron?
A whole 2 oz?
The premise that a university degree is so pricey... Does anybody comparison shop any more? I just checked out my old school, the University of Utah. $3600 for resident full time tuition for a semester. So why are kids coming out of school with so much debt? I know, it's partying and iPhones.
I'm so sick of hearing woe is me, I'm swimming in school debt... I had $12000 to pay off after school. Two years and that's done.
it is safe to conclude that almost everyone under the age of 40 is broke regardless of education.
The guy who runs my Internet Service Provider; owns it outright. he has about 1200 satisfied full time customers at %50/month. $60,000 a month gross; he has three full time employees; non-degreed and two company trucks. He's 36yrs. old. He dropped out of College when he realized he knew more about computer systems than the professor. He bought the company with a personal loan from his Aunt; as a distress sale; the start-up guy didn't have many customers and was a hopeless business man. I helped him put together some equipment 10-12 years ago; using my old specialty of power electronics and battery knowledge to get him off the UPS scam on to direct battery for the satelitte relay antenna transponders; For two years I built units for him on my kitchen table for free internet service. I was bored, anyway; and I certainly didn't want the connection to go away. He does actual direct to technician call-up suport and same day to your address wi-fi and switch repairs; takes care of the customers; kind of old fashioned that way.
I see educated idiots.
In your dreams? ...
While you're awake? ...
Educated idiots like, in graves? In coffins?
Walking around like regular people. They don't see each other. They only see what they want to see. They don't know they're educated idiots.
How often do you see them?
All the time. They're everywhere.
Any breakdown on the quality of the college education?
Are we talking college graduates only?
How about college grads vs dropouts with debt.
How abount state universtity college grads vs. no college. My money is on the state college grads.
yesteryears china-- mid/1947 (halfway through china's final civil war [1945-49]) in which the U.S. supported Nationalist, whom, btw... were accusing students of anti-democracy and USA meddling post WWII? '
Strange shit...'
what's that to do with today's american universities/ colleges? two-thirds of China's higher educational system were state supported and sponsored... and, here's what the graduates were saying in student circles throughout the country in what had become a famous by-word-- 'Unemployment follows graduations' !?!
and their parents that helped pay for their R&B + educational expenses etc., etc.
Today I learned that people who take on debt have a lower net worth than people who don't take on debt.
Exactly the kind of cutting edge insight I've come to expect from Zerohedge these days.
The government is trying to pursue us that college education is a must for those who willing to get bigger paychecks. But have you noticed that they are being silent about lack of decent job vacancies. So basically, students are tricked into higher education student loan (debt as a result) but they have no prospects. I am not saying that it is impossible to find a job at all. But for the money that we pay colleges have to make sure that everyone get employed according to his specialization. Otherwise, there is really very little point in getting into such a debt. It is insane.
Mel for EssayOnlineStore Website
I'm one of the few who are in the HS/no debt group.
I feel for some of my young co-workers; they are trapped more than I (although my ability to earn the future wages these folks will get is obviously not there, too).
In a sense, the best thing a worker can have on their side: skills, no debt, and the ability to unionize.
And the skills part is waning for most of us as the education system continues to decline and become more, "pay-for-play".
Just SAY NO to debt or interest. You will live a happier life.