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Ron Paul: "Mental Health Screening A Good Way To Decrease Liberty, Poor Way To Increase Security"

Tyler Durden's picture




 

Submitted by Ron Paul via The Ron Paul Institute,

Last week Americans were shocked and saddened by another mass killing, this one near a college campus in California. We all feel deep sympathy for the families of the victims.

As usual, many people responded to this shooting by calling for new federal gun control laws, including the mental health screening of anyone attempting to purchase a firearm. There are a number of problems with this proposal. Federally-mandated mental health screenings would require storing mental health records in a government database. This obviously raises concerns about patient privacy and doctor-patient confidentiality, as well as the threat of identity theft. Anyone who doubts that these are legitimate concerns should consider the enormous privacy problems with the Obamacare website; some have even suggested that healthcare.gov be renamed indentifytheft.gov.

Giving government the power to bar some Americans from owning guns by labeling them as “mentally ill” could easily lead to serious abuses. Even authors of mental health manuals admit that mental health diagnoses are subjective and can be based on “social constructions.” Thus, anyone whose behavior deviates from some “norm” could find himself deprived of his second amendment, and possibly other, rights.

People could be even be labeled “mentally ill” because they are outspoken critics of the government. Currently, as part of the Department of Homeland Security’s “Operation Vigilant Eagle” program, veterans who express dissatisfaction with government polices run the risk of being labeled mentally-unstable terrorist threats. There has also been at least one federally-funded violence prevention program that determined that holding certain political and social views indicates a propensity for violence. So there is precedent for labeling those with unpopular political beliefs as being “mentally ill.”

We have also seen how US presidents from both parties have used the IRS to target political opponents. Imagine the potential for abuse if those same politicians had access to the mental health records of their political opponents, or the power to label opponents mentally ill because those opponents were “dissatisfied” with the government?

People who say that the threat to liberty posed by mental health screenings is outweighed by the enhanced security they provide should consider that expanding background checks and mental health screening is unlikely to make us safer. Professor Richard Alan Friedman, director of the Psychopharmacology Clinic at Weill Cornell Medical College, has written that it is imposable to predict whether an individual will act in a violent manner.

One effective way to limit mass shootings may be to repeal gun control laws that, by disarming the law-abiding, turn the innocent into victims. Like most recent shootings, this one took place in a location where the attacker could be confident his intended targets could not defend themselves. It is interesting that even though the attacker used hammers and knives on some of the victims, no one is calling for background checks on those wishing to purchase hammers.

Instead of focusing on passing more laws, our focus should be replacing the entitlement culture with a culture of self-responsibility and respect for the rights of others. Government can help this process by ending its routine violation of our rights and the use of violence as a means to achieve domestic and foreign policy goals. This is not to suggest that government policies are directly responsible for the shootings, but it is not unreasonable to suggest that growing up in a time of preemptive war may feed a deranged person’s delusion that violence is a proper way to deal with personal frustrations. Fixing the culture is much more difficult than passing new laws but is the only way to guarantee our liberty and our security.

 

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Mon, 06/02/2014 - 18:39 | 4818312 JLee2027
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Mass shootings usually only happen only in gun free zones.

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 18:46 | 4818336 CH1
CH1's picture

Sociopaths will use any excuse to choke a populace to death.

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 18:58 | 4818366 knukles
knukles's picture

If we just raised the minimum wage to $60/hour, then everybody would be happy and everybody get a job.  And all the world's mental illness would disappear because everybody would be happy. 
I must apologize, I have to admit I've gone over to the liberal side.
I've become a Democrat because Democrats don't understand math and can do anything.

 

 

Now, were's my toporol and xanax refresher?

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 19:07 | 4818399 JLee2027
JLee2027's picture

Endless money = common core math skills.

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 21:16 | 4818717 DaveyJones
DaveyJones's picture

OK, if we do the same for all elected officials, I'll consider...

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 21:36 | 4818764 James_Cole
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This is not to suggest that government policies are directly responsible for the shootings, but it is not unreasonable to suggest that growing up in a time of preemptive war may feed a deranged person’s delusion that violence is a proper way to deal with personal frustrations.

Lol, RP officially gone full retard. 

And yes, common sense = mental health screenings.

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 22:10 | 4818841 xtop23
xtop23's picture

Ahh James I did miss you.

Why is it so hard to imagine that a person could be affected by the society that they exist in?

To call that "full retard" is a bit extreme, don't you think?

 

I also loved the certainty with which you state that common sense = mental health screenings.

By what measure do we gauge someone's mental health? Who determines what is acceptable behavior and who is mentally unsuitable for firearm ownership? 

 

Let's hear it. I'm really curious how you envision such a thing being enacted in practice. I would also like to hear what safeguards you would propose to ensure that such a program doesn't become a tool by which firearm ownership is denied the general citizenry.

 

And before you call me a /cringe .... c o n s p i r a c y t h e o r i s t ............... need I remind you that whole host of things that were once thought to be such, are now being exposed as fact.

 

Edit ( and no, i didn't down vote you )

 

 

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 22:57 | 4818988 James_Cole
James_Cole's picture

Why is it so hard to imagine that a person could be affected by the society that they exist in?

What, is this some new principal of the 'personal responsibility' crowd -people aren't actually responsible for their actions, was the evil society / government / TV? 

By what measure do we gauge someone's mental health? Who determines what is acceptable behavior and who is mentally unsuitable for firearm ownership? 

A commonality amongst these shooters is mental problems and - I haven't followed it closely - they all seemed to have had psychiatrists. If everyone put their brains together I imagine there's some way to connect these clinical diagnoses of insane people and barring the same folks from owning guns - all without infringing on everyone else’s rights. If your argument is that these shooters were completely sane, well that's another thing..

Most people would agree, I imagine, that lunatics shouldn't have access to high powered guns. So let's say: 1. Insane people shouldn't have guns. 2. ? 3. Insane people are unable to get guns. That, to me, is common sense. 

Pretending any attempt is the end of the world is just a tactic for selling website subscriptions. 

And Switzerland has high gun ownership protections, but also a fairly involved process for acquiring guns. Seems to work for everyone. 

Tue, 06/03/2014 - 03:00 | 4819363 xtop23
xtop23's picture

   quote; What, is this some new principal of the 'personal responsibility' crowd -people aren't actually responsible for their actions, was the evil society / government / TV? 

Personal responsibility and the belief that the actions of those around you "can" have bearing on how you yourself act are not mutually exclusive concepts.

   quote; A commonality amongst these shooters is mental problems and - I haven't followed it closely - they all seemed to have had psychiatrists. If everyone put their brains together I imagine there's some way to connect these clinical diagnoses of insane people and barring the same folks from owning guns - all without infringing on everyone else’s rights. If your argument is that these shooterswere completely sane, well that's another thing

And as a result, the unintended consequences could be reticence on the part of people to seek psychiatric help on the basis that they might be diagnosed as "mentally ill" and see their rights as American citizens stripped from them. With the result being that they go undiagnosed, receive no treatment whatsoever for the mental illnesses that they suffer from, and are quite capable of purchasing a firearm either through illegal means or through regular channels because of the difficulties associated with actual diagnosis of the mentally ill.

( many people whom you and I would perhaps consider completely off their rocker, can function perfectly well for brief periods of time. A considerably greater period of analysis would be required for true diagnosis of a dangerous mental instability. Almost certainly longer than any realistic piece of legislation could require ).

I would also mention that cherry-picking a panel of "experts", to issue recommendations that espouse a predetermined result, is really quite easy.

You also neglect to mention the most obvious similarity between most, if not all, of these tragic shooting events; SSRI's

Of course, with how powerful the big pharma lobby is, there isn't a chance in Hell of that getting any real focus.

   quote; Most people would agree, I imagine, that lunatics shouldn't have access to high powered guns. So let's say: 1. Insane people shouldn't have guns. 2. ? 3. Insane people are unable to get guns. That, to me, is common sense. 

Going from A to C is the problem. 

Your assertion that mental health screening is the method by which this might be accomplished, is rife with legitimate concerns over personal privacy, governmental over-reach, and potential abuse for unknown ends.......

 ........not to mention, the fact that the efficacy of such a program is pure conjecture.

   quote; Pretending any attempt is the end of the world is just a tactic for selling website subscriptions.

Confiscation / registries / progressive reduction in the ability of citizens to own and operate firearms by the introduction of legislation, are all methods by which governments subjugate a populace and reduce its ability to protect itself from tyranny.

There are countless examples in history of such things.

To assume that because it's 2014, and we've "evolved" beyond the need for evil men to exert control over their fellow man that such a thing could not occur, is the height of idiocy.

   quote; And Switzerland has high gun ownership protections, but also a fairly involved process for acquiring guns. Seems to work for everyone. 

Without being versed in the various applicable laws / programs that govern ownership and operation of a firearm by the swiss, I could not draw any conclusions for you ( either in the positive or negative ) as to whether such a thing applies to our current conversation, as it pertains to mental health screening.

 

The truth is this;

Treating the symptoms of a terminal disease, rather than its root cause, is a foolhardy exercise.

Sure, you feel less achy in the morning and you're still able to get a woody for the wife when she feels a tad frisky, but you still die.

We've devoted too much effort / energy / money / and time, to things that play great on T.V. during an election cycle, but yield precious little lasting results ( if any result at all ).

We need a completely different approach if we are to actually effect lasting change.






  

 

 

 

 

Tue, 06/03/2014 - 03:20 | 4819420 James_Cole
James_Cole's picture

Personal responsibility and recognition that the actions of those around you can have bearing on how you yourself act are not mutually exclusive concepts.

but it is not unreasonable to suggest that growing up in a time of preemptive war may feed a deranged person’s delusion that violence is a proper way to deal with personal frustrations.

OMG pre-emptive war!! Everyone go on killing sprees, all the .govs fault!! ....Anyone trying to connect the 'mental anguish' of violent US foreign policy and some nutcase shooting people in socal (yeah real hard living in santa barbara) need to give their heads a shake. Especially when there is zero connection here between this guys stated motives and anything involving the us government. 

And interesting that Ron Paul is all personal responsibility blah blah blah when it comes to health, poverty, job security etc. but curiously 'it's societys fault' when someone goes on a mass killing spree... 

could be reticence on the part of people to seek psychiatric help on the basis that they might be diagnosed as "mentally ill" and see their rights as American citizens stripped from them. 

Something which has always been the case, in the past much worse than now. 

Going from A to C is the problem. 

Yes obviously. 

Confiscation / registries / progressive reduction in the ability of citizens to own and operate firearms by the introduction of legislation, are all methods by which governments subjugate a populace and reduce its ability to protect itself from tyranny.

People can go on and on with their paranoid delusions about Obama hiding in the shadows about to snip their guns at any moment, but.. there is >>ZERO<< movement so far in that direction.

Treating the symptoms of a terminal disease, rather than its root cause, is a foolhardy exercise. 

That's a real stretch. The issue at hand is a number of mentally ill americans have gone on killing sprees armed with high powered weapons. It's a great political fight because it ties into 'big' issues everyone can yell about (guns are killing people! guns don't kill people, people do! shouldn't have guns! take my guns over my dead body!), but only recently have people started to whisper about the less sexy issue of mental illness.

And more nuanced arguments tend to be terribly unlucrative for people like Ron "give my web domain name for free or i'll sue you at the UN" Paul who needs cashflow for his namesake institute. 

Tue, 06/03/2014 - 06:40 | 4819547 nmewn
nmewn's picture

The points raised, are good ones regarding the mentally unstable.

From a pro-liberty perspective, we don't want the oddball widow woman who lives alone down at the end of the street disarmed because its her right to defend herself when some young punks break in on her...anymore than we want the "completely sane" retired judges or politicians who lives on the other side of town disarmed because its their right to defend themselves as well, no matter how many lives they've destroyed over their careers.

Its easy to sit back (with hindsight) and say "Ahah! there was the red flag, they should have been committed or jailed for the publics safety."

From a practical standpoint (lets just say that "society" takes their rights away once they're identified) they won't seek treatment for the voices in their heads because they know they will have their rights taken away and be left defenseless, at the mercy of whatever demons exist in their minds already.

Thats not good either.

Tue, 06/03/2014 - 06:52 | 4819555 FredFlintstone
FredFlintstone's picture

"personal responsibility blah blah blah"....It is that attitude pretty much sums up what ails us.

Tue, 06/03/2014 - 10:25 | 4819945 g'kar
g&#039;kar's picture

"People can go on and on with their paranoid delusions about Obama hiding in the shadows about to snip their guns at any moment, but.. there is >>ZERO<< movement so far in that direction."

 

Obama and Holder are sure trimming around the edges.

 

http://blog.heritage.org/2014/05/20/obama-administration-deems-gun-retai...

 

You wouldn't be this James Cole?

DOJ Deputy Attorney General James Cole

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/06/governments-disrupt-botnet-ga...

 

 


Tue, 06/03/2014 - 06:34 | 4819540 epicurious
epicurious's picture

Hey let's have mental health screenings for anyone buying a Tee Vee set to make sure they will be sufficiently intelligent and stable to keep sane after 1000's of hours of watching retarded productions featuring all forms of agression and mayhem.  I can't stand even watching the trailers before the feature with the big kaboom noise every few moments.  The media is the message here folks.  Throw that fucking Tee Vee out and certainly don't let your kids watch that crap.  I'm not anti gun just for your info as I am licensed to carry concealed.

Tue, 06/03/2014 - 08:07 | 4819640 11b40
11b40's picture

The other common denominator is violent video games. Sick & sorry parents raising sick kids....often both mentally & physically.

Tue, 06/03/2014 - 11:36 | 4820190 11b40
11b40's picture

If the old saying about hit dogs being the ones who bark, looks like I hit a couple of them.

Violent video games are just sooo macho.

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 21:36 | 4818753 One World Mafia
One World Mafia's picture

Speaking of Xanax, Elliot Rodger's parents say he was taking it in the days before the murders.

http://radaronline.com/exclusives/2014/05/elliot-rodger-xanax-shooting-2/

In which case we have another psychotropic fueled rampage.

Back in the days before people popped pharmaceuticals for their mental problems, I never heard of a single school shooting.

 

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 21:42 | 4818777 Cathartes Aura
Cathartes Aura's picture

check this timeline from 1927 onwards, the first isn't a shooter, but,

a farmer sets off 2 explosions at Bath, MI schoolhouse, killing himself, 6 adults, & 38 children.  (not gang related)

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 23:01 | 4818945 One World Mafia
One World Mafia's picture

The article comes up blank with comments.  Anyhow the rise in school shootings follows the popularity of psychoactive pharmaceuticals.  I can't see your article but I never heard of one school shooting occuring before the '90s.  Now they are all over the place with a common thread:

http://washingtonsblog.com/2012/12/are-the-new-generation-of-anti-depres...

Tue, 06/03/2014 - 00:03 | 4819157 Cathartes Aura
Cathartes Aura's picture

sorry the first link didn't work in your browser?  I checked it and it works for me. . .

hate to use wiki - but here ya go. . .

List of School Shootings in the US

as you can see, school shootings have a long history.

 

Tue, 06/03/2014 - 05:37 | 4819498 Disenchanted
Disenchanted's picture

Wait...I thought all the bad stuff only started happening after January 2009??

OMG! Bad things happened before that too. You've destroyed my world.

 

/sarcasm

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 18:57 | 4818368 ACP
ACP's picture

People could be even be labeled “mentally ill” because they are outspoken critics of the government.

People ARE being labeled mentally ill because they are critics of the government:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/ukip/10071044/Apology-over-chil...

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 19:01 | 4818381 knukles
knukles's picture

Yes, the most recent edition of the MMSLURPVII or whatever, that mental health hancdbook is, categorizes just about every single hunman emotion as a "mental illness"

 

I knew you knew how to spell Soviet Hospital

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 19:02 | 4818387 ACP
ACP's picture

You can also spell soviet hospital as "VA"......

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 18:49 | 4818338 Headbanger
Headbanger's picture

That's actually a good point!

Cause we don't see them in the four states that have the most "liberal" gun laws of Alaska, Wyoming, Arizona and Vermont.

Well, that plus everybody there is stoned from some fine weed too!

But then too, everybody, and I do mean EVERYBODY having their favorite take along does make for a moar POlite society.

 

And hey, No offense to Texas .. But do get rid of the bullshit anti-gun laws soon too,.

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 18:58 | 4818369 TeamDepends
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Except the Giffords hoax shooting in AZ by the lefty wackjob that took out the judge they didn't like.

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 19:08 | 4818403 Headbanger
Headbanger's picture

Yeah, and?? 

Not exactly a crazed wacko Aurora Colo or Santa Barbara shooting now is it??

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 19:18 | 4818438 TeamDepends
TeamDepends's picture

And uh, um, well there's the uh..........  the OK Corral!

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 19:35 | 4818475 Headbanger
Headbanger's picture

And let's not forget the "Saint Valentine's Day Massacre " on top of that either!

Seriously..  It was just the "Purple Gang" getting back at Capone.

Just business. No big deal.

 

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 23:31 | 4819043 GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture

RE:And hey, No offense to Texas .. But do get rid of the bullshit anti-gun laws soon too,.

Whoa, hey there pard' slow down. I mean they only shut down their eugenics program in the 70's

(IE as long as we're on the subject of:"Mental Health Screening A Good Way To Decrease Liberty, Poor Way To Increase Security")

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 18:59 | 4818374 Deathrips
Deathrips's picture

Ban Gun Free Zones!!!!!

 

For the KIDS!!!

 

RIPS

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 22:50 | 4818846 GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture

RE:"Mass shootings usually only happen only in gun free zones."


doubleplusgoodthink jlee belly

PS

While we're conjecturing Mr.Paul, and as much as I appreciate your incites on many subjects, I'm just wondering if you've ever tried to take out a grouse's head at thirty yards while the bird's in flight... with a hammer?

On the other hand, if you had a gun as well (and the bird understood English) she just might obey your command to stay put until you got her in range, I suppose.

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 18:41 | 4818320 xtop23
xtop23's picture

Unfortunately for the good doctor ( and us ), we are way beyond the point where common sense could have had an appreciable impact on the outcome.

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 18:44 | 4818325 Dr. Engali
Dr. Engali's picture

I propose we label the people who want to strip away a person's right to protect themselves from savages as mentally unstable and bar them from any position of power.

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 18:45 | 4818333 nmewn
nmewn's picture

I second the motion.

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 19:03 | 4818390 knukles
knukles's picture

You must be racists, trying to abdicate His powers of Good and World Happiness.

Hurry, breathe all the CO2 you can before it's outlawed.

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 21:02 | 4818685 Government need...
Government needs you to pay taxes's picture

Seriously, I would not be surprised to see a CO2 tax on every breathing family member, including dogs and cats.  It's for the safety of the atmosphere.

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 18:46 | 4818335 NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

Unfortunately, you'd have to get soemone mentally unstable to want to deal with that mess of trying to get the other unstable folks to pass it. 

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 18:44 | 4818327 Nimby
Nimby's picture

Mental screening to purchase a firearm, no.  But when you post some crazy fucking videos on YouTube talking about the crazy fucking shit to plan to crazy fucking do, then yes, it's time to sit little Elliot down with a mental health professional before dragging him in front of a judge.  Stick his ass in a loony bin for a couple weeks and if he acts looney, have him involuntarily committed.

If someone is so dangerous that they ought not be able to legally purchase a firearm, then why are they free at all? 

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 18:49 | 4818347 saints51
saints51's picture

Have you noticed the bankers and politicians free roaming?

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 19:05 | 4818393 knukles
knukles's picture

Bunches of the senior guys at Goldilocks got carry permits, in NYC of all places.
Crazy?
Fuck no, just sociopaths with character references

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 19:11 | 4818411 saints51
saints51's picture

LOL!!! Fuckers are so sick its actual a + on a resume.

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 18:54 | 4818358 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Well thats the problem Nimby, he was seeing shrinks/therapists/counselors, his parents were richer than six foot up a bulls ass. He had more than enough opportunities to straighten himself out than you or I ever did.

And we turned out fine...mostly ;-)

Some people are just bad seeds and he is one of them. He had an over inflated ego of himself (because of his upbringing) and a serious problem with his own ethnicity.

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 19:10 | 4818408 spinone
spinone's picture

Notice that the mass shooters are bat shit crazy children of the .01%.  Because no matter what laws are passed, they dont apply to the .01%

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 19:32 | 4818473 nmewn
nmewn's picture

I did. Of late that seems to be the case. There are other similarities but in the interests of keeping this cordial and on topic, I'll refrain ;-)

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 20:38 | 4818618 Postal
Postal's picture

And we turned out fine...mostly ;-)

Sure we did...

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 21:52 | 4818804 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Operative word...mostly ;-)

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 21:20 | 4818721 DaveyJones
DaveyJones's picture

I was three feet up a bull's ass but my assets turned out to be nothing but shit

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 21:51 | 4818801 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Thats shinier than a diamond up a goats ass...lol.

(I got a million of em)

Here ya go, never kick a fresh cowpie on a hot day...now that right there is some good solid advice no matter who you are ;-) 

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 19:00 | 4818372 Headbanger
Headbanger's picture

I agree! That little turd should have been flagged a long time ago and committed just to prevent mental cases like him from legally purchase a fire arm.

The horrible reality is that he still managed to brutally murder three in his apartment without a firearm.

The problem is we have a way too PC society today that doesn't want to use terms like "mental case" to prevent such gun purchases.

So the anti-gun libtards are as much to blame for this shit as anything else!

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 19:14 | 4818420 nmewn
nmewn's picture

"The horrible reality is that he still managed to brutally murder three in his apartment without a firearm."

I want to expand on this point and the attempted indoctrination of the people by those with an obvious agenda.

Just about every headline read something like "Gunman kills six!"...the implication is, he used a gun to kill all six. Thats a lie or obfuscation, however one chooses to look at it. The death toll was three with a knife and three with a gun, unless another one dies from being run down with his BMW. Yes, his car, you can plainly see someones body print in the shattered glass of his car.

The headlines didn't read "Knife weilding maniac kills six!"...for a reason. They wanted to "plant the thought" in everyones head that all the victims died by a gun.

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 20:42 | 4818627 SilverIsKing
SilverIsKing's picture

Those that died by the gun are victims. The others, killed with either a knife or a car, are collateral damage.

See easy, even a moron can do it!

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 21:42 | 4818775 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Thats basically it, thats how "the implant" works.

In two months time, when the subject comes up again, it will be six killed with a gun...it just grew legs & went off randomly...lol.

It won't be six killed by a nut who was a "troubled child since he was eight years old " (says his aunt, living in France) who was raised in the lap of Hollywood elitist luxury, afforded all manner of shrinks, therapists, counselors, a BMW, college and pills he refused to take (by his own admission).

The sad reality of this little prick (I give him no quarter even in his death) is he never understood love, whether to or from his father or mother or family as they were just objects to him, possessions, a means to an end, just like the blond chicks he lusted after (beyond his reach, not understanding why in his snobbery) or the men who dated them (who were his betters, still not understanding why).

Some sort of new/old pathology, lets call it Snobfamil ;-)

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 19:06 | 4818394 Anusocracy
Anusocracy's picture

"If someone is so dangerous that they ought not be" allowed in society.

As I've stated before, exclude the uncivilized from society so that the civilized don't have to suffer them or support them.

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 19:54 | 4818525 Psquared
Psquared's picture

This post could be used to get you an appointment with Dr. Phil. The point is that I'd rather suffer the possibility of being shot by a crazy person (a risk I take every day) than have the government tell me all about how they are going to keep me safe from this or that.

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 20:10 | 4818548 Nimby
Nimby's picture

Bitch, if I walk out on a street corner and declare to the world my intent to kill as many people as possible, and then myself that is making terroristic threats...a crime.  What is the difference between that and posting a video saying the same exact thing on YouTube?

There isn't one.  And either will get you drug in front of a judge to have your mental state adjudicated.

If you want to live in a stateless society, that's fine.  I'm all for it.  But I have more guns than you, and I know how to use them.  And in a stateless society I will.  The state keeps me from killing the shit out of morons like you, and it is supposed to keep morons like Elliot Rodger from killing the shit out of morons like you. 

 

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 18:45 | 4818328 IridiumRebel
IridiumRebel's picture

Over 3,300 people die each year in America from accidental drowning. If it's accidental, it's preventable. Out of this, over 400 are children who drown in their own backyard pool. 13,200 deaths are caused by drunk drivers each year in the US.

According to the FBI, there are on average 15 mass shootings per year that kill on average 100 people in America. Out of 300 million people, 100 is super rare. At that rate, it is so rare that it's not a legitimate problem that requires major resources to address, when there ARE major problems that no one is doing anything about. Over 30 times as many people dying from drowning and I don't see any national efforts to address this, or how about the 13,200 deaths caused by drunk drivers? Shouldn't we eliminate the big problems before moving on to the super rare problems?

Just because someone will likely want to add all shootings in to the total numbers, there are on average 10,100 homicides per year in the US total. About 60% of those are with firearms, the rest are mostly bludgeoning and stabbing. So 6,000 total murders using a gun, only twice as many as deaths by drowning, but still less than those killed by drunk drivers. It is worth noting that 89% of homicides using a gun occur in a very small area of the country: major cities.

Now according to the CDC, 100,000 people die each year in the US from prescription medicine. Yet our government works at a furious pace to allow more drugs on the market each year. If common sense and logic aren't driving our priorities in stopping preventable deaths, than what is? Foolishness? Political agenda?

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 19:06 | 4818395 Headbanger
Headbanger's picture

Then there are the suicides....

Like three times the  gun related homicides.

And let's not forget the number of people killed each year skiing, climbing ladders, falling from roofs, bee stings, horse back riding, pogo sticking and of course.. nail guns.

Almost forgot.. Paper cut deaths! 

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 19:11 | 4818412 Dr. Venkman
Dr. Venkman's picture

It is all political. It is the low hanging fruit of politics in many areas. Here in DE they are considering expanding the ban on undetectable firearms and components. It is a pointless law that can be sold to the public via mailers stating State Sen. McDowell wants your kids to be safe while getting a lollipop from the neighborhood bank tellers.

The idea that criminals are sneaking guns into banks, raiding the safe, and fleeing off to surf in Australia is absurd. Most bank robberies here are non-events, and the robbers are typically found within 2 hours of the job. But it's for the children.

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 19:18 | 4818436 Bro of the Sorr...
Bro of the Sorrowful Figure's picture

common sense and logic are, it would seem, never a priority any more. in fact just using common sense today is likely to get you a label like "extremist" or "terrorist" or "kook"

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 18:45 | 4818330 Seasmoke
Seasmoke's picture

Maybe that's why they allowed all those people on SS disability.

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 18:45 | 4818331 Reaper
Reaper's picture

The government is filled with psychopaths out to harm us. Take the guns away from the government. Let them rule by their powers of persuasion.

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 18:47 | 4818340 alexcojones
alexcojones's picture

Speaking of mental health:

Imagine the head of EPA, Christine Todd Whitman, said in the days after 9-11, that the air was fine. I arrived one month later, stayed three days near Liberty State Park, smelled the still-burning electrical (?) fires, and left. So here is what was "in the air.

  "Radioactive fallout found by the U.S. Geological Survey in samples from 35 sites surrounding the WTC for nearly a mile. Other signs were the speed of the Towers disintegrations (8 to 10 seconds), the shock and blast waves, the pyroclastic main cloud, base-surges of street-level dust clouds, electromagnetic pulses (EMPs), upwellings of clouds from street gratings blocks away, the 2,800ºF heat under the WTC debris, and, possibly, the giveaway light-blue Cerenkov Radiation when the debris “pile” was cleared in mid-March. Add to all these signs, the molten metal in the footprints of WTC 1, 2, and 7 that for three months could not be extinguished by water or daily soil changes as it consumed concrete, steel, glass, office combustibles. The increasing incidence of radiation-only cancers from residents is another tell-tale sign of a nuclear “event.”

And people - family and friends - wonder why we here at ZH are "mental."  - AC

VT Nuclear Education: Undeniable Proof of 9/11 as a Nuclear Event

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 19:23 | 4818453 Westcoastliberal
Westcoastliberal's picture

Thanks for citing the VT post.  Smells like truth to me!

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 18:49 | 4818343 Agent P
Agent P's picture

What does he know about mental health? It's not like he's a doctor or anything. Oh, wait.....

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 18:54 | 4818356 stinkhammer
stinkhammer's picture

we are the government, we are here to help

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 18:55 | 4818361 Seize Mars
Seize Mars's picture

For God's sake, when will they ban murder?!

Think of the children!

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 19:12 | 4818416 spinone
spinone's picture

When you outlaw murder, only the criminals will kill people.

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 19:00 | 4818384 giorgioorwell
giorgioorwell's picture

The problem is I've yet to see anyone in the pro-Gun camp have any good arguments/explanations for why of all the developed/civilized countries in the world, the US is the ONLY one where mass (and non-mass) shootings happen with numbing regularity.  Yes, they do happen worldwide occasionally, but with nowhere near the regularity as the US.

And this is other countries that have gun control, Socialist governments, immigrant/race problems and poverty, all the same things you say drive gun violence here....but yet, we are truly exceptional when it comes to death by guns.

Come on, let's hear your explanation, and, no, not your explanation of why their is gun violence in the US, but why our rates are so much higher when comparing to anywhere in Europe, Japan, Singapore, Australia, New Zealand, etc...  

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 19:09 | 4818406 Peak Finance
Peak Finance's picture

?????

 

ONLY one where mass (and non-mass) shootings happen with numbing regularity.

 

Ummm, The current high-score is held by a Norweigan, and there was just a mass shooting over in Euro-land like two or three days ago. I am not going to even bother doing the research for your worthless ass and post the links. 

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 19:13 | 4818414 giorgioorwell
giorgioorwell's picture

That's about the level of response I expected. 

Don't read much do you?  I said the only nation where it happens with regularity.  Not the amount of people killed, the regularity with which it happens.  Do you understand the meaning of regularity?

Yes, that was a nasty one in Norway, and tell me the last time they've had one?  

The US has roughly two a month genius.   

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 19:18 | 4818432 Peak Finance
Peak Finance's picture

Two a month?

It's more like once a year, Sandy Hook, Movie Theter in Co, Recent SO Cal mess, WTF are you talking about?  

Now who is talking out of their ass?

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 19:25 | 4818455 giorgioorwell
giorgioorwell's picture

Wow, are you really that clueless.  You're only counting the sensational ones that appear in mass media that happen at schools or somewhere particular tragic.

Here are a couple of mass shooting trackers, you do the math. It's about one every two weeks:

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/09/16/mass-killings-data-...

http://www.reddit.com/r/GunsAreCool/wiki/2014massshootings

 

 

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 19:33 | 4818464 Peak Finance
Peak Finance's picture

LOLZ 

Ok, so now I see! So what you are really asking is why ghetto thugs and illegals kill each other in huge numbers.

There are ENTIRE sites devoted to that, I suggest you educate yourself.

I would post some links but I would get banned.

 

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 19:35 | 4818480 giorgioorwell
giorgioorwell's picture

Haha, yeah, that's what I was asking. No other countries have thugs, ghetto's and illegals. Travel much?

Way to dodge the question.  Go ahead and post some links or you can just go back to sleep now.,

 

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 19:54 | 4818522 Peak Finance
Peak Finance's picture

You are compairing US rates to Europe rates, and the fact of the matter is,  it is the ghetto thugs and illegals doing most of the mass shootings, and,  no, Eurpoe DOES NOT in fact have the same illegals and thugs we have. 

This means for any real accuracy that you would need to compare USA rates, to the rates of their (the illegals) home countries, in Latin America.

Many Latin American countries have 20 times the gun murder rate (notably Mexico, Honduras being the worst) of the United States!! Mexicans being the largest illegal demographic, we would expect an INSANELY HIGH mass shooting rate from this population. 

You are a deluded anti-gun nut  and need to do some real research on this topic.  I warn you some of it is "unpleasent" and will challenge your fantasy world-view. You are most likely not strong enough to handle it. 

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 20:20 | 4818572 giorgioorwell
giorgioorwell's picture

Most mass shooters are most definitely white.  Show me the last one of any signficance that wasn't.

Europe has enormous problems with immigrants from Africa right now, in fact they just declared a state of emergency in Italy and Greece with the UN because of this.  

You stopped making sense a while ago...if you're going to say that Honduras is a fair comparison to the US when talking about gun violence, you are delusional. 

I've read enough on this from every side of the argument to know that the only real answer gun nuts have now, is that it's too late because there are already 300 million guns out there in the US. Which in some ways is true, but you're all standing around wondering how that happened.  

I'm not even anti-gun, you've just missed the whole point of my question. 

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 20:29 | 4818603 Peak Finance
Peak Finance's picture

Ok, so now your changing the defination of "mass shooter"

I assumed you mean white at first, then you posted the statistics show ALL of the mass shootings, which is mostly non-white,  which we clearly explained to you, now you change your defination. 

I guess I just didn't realize I was getting trolled. Fuck off.

 

BTW the last mass shooting in Eurpoe a few days ago I was talking about was non white.....

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/jewish-museum-shooting-suspect-arrested-074320...

 

You may need to travel more.....

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 20:54 | 4818667 Pure Evil
Pure Evil's picture

You just pointed out what has become rather obvious. This troll has an anti-2nd amendment agenda and is stirring the pot on ZH.

Tue, 06/03/2014 - 02:27 | 4819389 goldsansstandard
goldsansstandard's picture

before the Supreme Court made it much more difficult to commit people to the nut house, there was a surprising nnumber of people committed for political , economic, or social reasons.

The movie "One flew over the cukoo's Nest.
dramatized the problem.
The natural result of the decision is that a lot of non nuts are free, but more nuts are free.

I live in nut central in mid town San Francisco, and it is most unpleasant, but a small price to pay to keep innocents out of the mental health gulag.

Not to mention, that virtually all the mass murders are committed under the influence of psyco active drugs, esp SSRI.

Do the Europeans drop those pills like candy?

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 19:52 | 4818521 WTFx10
WTFx10's picture

So fucking what 330 million people and some die by the gun. WTF people die ,yes its unfortunate when an innocent dies by a nut job. Or a sexual frustrated spoiled rich kid. Just as fucking tragic when a drunk driver takes a life or lives. Like that poor little drunk rich 16 yr old kid in Texas who took out 3 with his car. Bet there's more fucking deaths each week by drunk drivers then mass shooters. Driving drunk is against the law and so is murder.

Criminals and CRAZIES DON'T FUCKING CARE.

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 19:18 | 4818433 Winston Churchill
Winston Churchill's picture

Think the record for mass in school deaths is 47, held by Germany, caused by a home made

flammenwerfer, weilded by some sicko.

By concentrating on guns you are missing the real problem ,and letting others

control the agenda.

Its not the method , its the deed.

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 19:26 | 4818458 giorgioorwell
giorgioorwell's picture

Seriously, yet another person replying about the record for number killed during a mass shooting.  

That was not the question.  

I give up, apparently no one can read on ZH

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 23:17 | 4819059 GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture

Pig ignorance with an agenda doesn't need to read, but it is very fond of quacking for some reason..

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 20:15 | 4818561 Greenskeeper_Carl
Greenskeeper_Carl's picture

He is a troll. He has been a member for over 3 years and posted his first comment a month ago. Look him up, stop feeding him, stop letting him distract you. This is the second one ive seen tonight. Pretty interesting.

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 20:53 | 4818666 Cathartes Aura
Cathartes Aura's picture

I've been posting here for over 4 years.

my "account" shows my "first" post 29 April this year.

FYI, not everybody posts here all day, every day - and posts get "archived" over time.

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 19:13 | 4818418 Armed Resistance
Armed Resistance's picture

To answer your question would require me to formally separate the "real" mass shootings from "staged" mass shootings, which of course would require a tremendous amount of energy and links- so I will skip it.  But for argument's sake, most are made-for-media and regulation events.  

However, states/counties/cities/regions that traditionally issue CCW's have DECIDEDLY lower rates of gun-violence.  And that's a fact, jack!

Gun control is about control, not guns.  History has proven this.  

For those who understand, no explanation is necessary.  For those that don't, no explanation is possible.

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 19:18 | 4818439 giorgioorwell
giorgioorwell's picture

That does not explain anything. Your saying within the US there are differences betweeen CCW's and non-CCW's areas. That was not my question.

I was asking for someone to explain why this is such a uniquely American problem, when comparaing against other developed countries that have much stricter gun laws, and why it happens so much more here.  And no, one nasty incident in Norway still does not answer my original question.

I would have at least expected you to start quoting Switzerland stats on CCW's.

Never mind, if you don't understand the question don't attempt to answer.

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 19:34 | 4818478 Pure Evil
Pure Evil's picture

Well, let's move the argument from the US down to Mexico and ask the same question.

Mexico has some of the strictest gun laws but has even more mass shootings per month than the US has per year.

Care to explain why?

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 19:40 | 4818487 giorgioorwell
giorgioorwell's picture

Again, really ZH readers. Someone else who can't read a question.

I'm comparing apples to apples, so that means comparing the US to other "developed" countries (I gave you a list to start from) and no Mexico does not fit that definition.  Mexico is currently a failed state, with cartels controling more than half of it...so no, a gun control law ain't going to have much impact there. Nothing works in Mexico, that's hardly a high bar of comparison

We have gun homicide rates closer to Venezuela and Brazil...but are you telling me that that is normal?

 

 

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 19:53 | 4818520 Overfed
Overfed's picture

There was once a time when gun laws were far, far more lax than today, practically non-existent, and there wasn't even a BATF to enforce what few gun laws that there were. Guess what? There were no mass shootings, and fewer murders than today. So you tell me. What has changed?

The US is rapidly approaching failed-state status, and the closer it gets, the worse the violence will become. No law or laws can change that.

 

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 23:01 | 4819008 GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture

Oh do pray tell when and where existed these halcyon days?

 

 

Lemme guess:Was Ol' Sharp Knife still POTUS?

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 23:29 | 4819079 Overfed
Overfed's picture

The Federal Gun Control Act was passed in 1968. So, let's see, who was president in '68? Johnson? Is he Ol' Sharp Knife? Prior to that was NFA in 1934. Commie FDR was all over that POS. We didn't even have the NICS bullshit 'til '93.

Idiot.

Tue, 06/03/2014 - 00:47 | 4819122 GoinFawr
GoinFawr's picture

1968 hey? So right about the time that all the deranged chickens started returning home from French IndoChina to roost?

Fascinating.

Also,

Chuck Whitman, 1966
 Robert Benjamin Smith 1966
 Federal Assault Weapons Ban expired in 2004

... aaand "Despite the lack of research on mass murder prior to 1965 (Ed. the basis of your argument I am sure), scholars have contended that the onset of an unprecedented and increasing mass murder wave occurred in the mid-1960's. The current study attempts to fill the gap in the research literature by examining 909 mass killings that took place in the United States between 1900 and 1999"-excerpted from https://www.ncjrs.gov/App/Publications/abstract.aspx?ID=209041

And that study examines an era not so very long after Ol' Sharp Knife's reign

Hunh.

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 19:55 | 4818528 WTFx10
WTFx10's picture

The horrible reality is that he still managed to brutally murder three in his apartment without a firearm.

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 22:18 | 4818880 nmewn
nmewn's picture

While they slept.

What a stud.

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 20:07 | 4818542 BeetleBailey
BeetleBailey's picture

Cat's out of the bag.

And hey....stop acting like your some moral fucking authority on here.

You aren't - and YOU have no solutions either..so shut the fuck up.

PLENTY of reasons and explanations - and NO one is "right".

OK, Mr. High and Fucking Mighty?

Get your head out of your ass.

 

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 20:14 | 4818558 giorgioorwell
giorgioorwell's picture

Ding, ding, ding. We have a winner for best answer: "Cats out of the bag"

Hahaha, that's brilliant. I'll turn the lights off on the way out

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 21:11 | 4818704 Cathartes Aura
Cathartes Aura's picture

there are a few topics that the bros close ranks on here, you've found yourself one of 'em.

not a lot of "discussion" happens now, mostly it's a daily chat-room for trading cliches and jokes, skewed heavily to the ZH demographic, sure.

your questioning why so many shootings in amrka, there might be a multitude of possible answers, including an over-developed sense of entitlement, lack of personal coping skills, drugs illegal and prescribed, excessively violent media as the "norm" - but really, I'd also add a growing sense of alienation, as lived "reality" doesn't match the media hype.

 

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 21:42 | 4818774 BeetleBailey
BeetleBailey's picture

No "discussion" needed.

Any imbecile can figure out what happened with this latest tragedy.

The family - failed.

The cops - failed - and failed HUGE.

Society failed.

Big Pharma and the Doctors failed.

...and we all found out about it as soon as fucking possible, after the fact.

What's to "discuss"?

Gun Control? FAIL....didn't it? Cali has strict laws, no?

FUCKIN FAIL.......

The cops and "preventing crime" FAIL.....

The family? FAIL

Society FAIL - at anything even morally pure. Either "side" - both are totally morally bankrupt.

Drugs to "help" - FAIL

....again....what is to discuss?

And what can anyone on here do about it?

Not much.

Not with the head of the fish rotten.

So yeah, I and others on here are going to rant. Going to make jokes. Going to swear. Going to howl at the utter despicable mess of shit that this once fine nation once wasn't.

So ....

Fuck You and your fucking "demographics".

Fuck You and your fucking self-righteousness.

I'd rather be among SOME people that have a sense of fact vs. fiction, and see the shit show for what it really is.

a slow, agonizing FAIL.

 

 

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 21:48 | 4818785 Cathartes Aura
Cathartes Aura's picture

lol, yeah, thanks for graphically illustrating the level of awareness ZH currently exhibits,

all finger-pointing scapegoats, so little reasoning skills left. . .

well done angry dude, you've found yerself a Home.

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 22:13 | 4818863 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Well then Cat, why don't you climb down off your high horse and enlighten us as to why this little prick killed four men & two women while driving around in his beamer?

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 22:18 | 4818881 Cathartes Aura
Cathartes Aura's picture

ahhh yes, the ole "high horse" meme trotted out again for show.

I offered up a few personal opinions in my post above, you're welcome to read them.

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 22:23 | 4818896 nmewn
nmewn's picture

You said possible answers NOT personal OPINIONS.

Which is it?

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 22:26 | 4818909 Cathartes Aura
Cathartes Aura's picture

lol, pour yerself another one dude, and go troll someone else, I've just had a lovely day and I'm not even remotely interested in yer testy.

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 22:33 | 4818931 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Well, "possible answers" are not the same as personal opinions. But whatever, enjoy your day Cat ;-)

Tue, 06/03/2014 - 05:22 | 4819491 BeetleBailey
BeetleBailey's picture

Go blow it out your ass. What a total prick you must be in real life.

I love it when douches think they have someone "figured out": from posts on the internet.

"Reasoning skills" - only douchebags and lilly livered soft men...or women...use that faggy speak...

 

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 22:04 | 4818826 Miffed Microbio...
Miffed Microbiologist's picture

It's is not just the bros CA. I have been raised with guns, purchased guns, shoot regularly with men and women. All demographics,classes and education levels.A well known OB/Gyn at my hospital and I occasionally meet at the range between his deliveries. Says it relaxes him after long nights in the labor room.

Believe it or not we are not all red necks with one tooth. We are responsible gun owners that do not wish our rights being taken away by the actions of overly medicated, mentally unstable crazies pumped up by the MSM with an agenda. Until the focus is on the real issues in this country, tragic events will continue. Gun control is touted as a panacea but it only affects the law abiding, criminals always find ways around. Funny how they know to prey on those who will be unlikely to fire back.

Miffed;-)

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 22:15 | 4818874 nmewn
nmewn's picture

"Funny how they know to prey on those who will be unlikely to fire back."

Ain't it though? ;-)

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 22:57 | 4818997 Miffed Microbio...
Miffed Microbiologist's picture

One of the most fascinating cases what the mall shooting in Oregon where the shooter saw a citizen aiming a gun at him. He didn't shoot because he didn't have a clean shot but the gunman ran when he saw him. I thought this was fascinating. Why didn't he shoot at him? He ran away and killed himself! I believe these drugged up shooters are in some kind of drug induced fantasy that is broken when confronted and their option seems to be suicide. The pattern has repeated so many times. These drugs are destroying people's minds and it really angers me there is no focus on this.

Miffed;-)

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 22:25 | 4818904 Cathartes Aura
Cathartes Aura's picture

yes, I've read of your love of guns, ammo, etc. many times before - the "bro" tag was referencing the absolute majority here, which you obviously slot right into fine.

I too own & hunt with guns, so spare me the lecture thanks - I just don't sit on threads sharing all my personal data daily.

I am also very aware of the way the media manipulates "public opinions" - as my posts often point out.  I just don't always take the same "side" as the majority here, hmm.

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 22:46 | 4818973 Miffed Microbio...
Miffed Microbiologist's picture

You seem a tad touchy. I was not lecturing you. You seemed to be a bit frustrated there was no discussion here just dick wagging and jokes. So I offered some counterpoint. So if I agree with some here, it is currying favor with group majority? I cannot speak as an individual?

I do not "love " guns as you so brand me. I am not an avid collector nor do I competitively shoot or train. It is a hobby and I felt the need to be able to protect myself if ever needed. I never go looking for a fight.

So you are offended by my sharing of my personal life. I could care less if you did the same. Seems I hit a nerve with Your Hautiness to receive such judgement. So you believe all your posts are so free from personal bias and experiences? Perhaps I should develop some cutsy spellings to be more avant garde and impressive. Oh, by sharing your hunting you have divulged a personal attribute in case you hadn't noticed.

Miffed;-)

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 22:52 | 4818986 Cathartes Aura
Cathartes Aura's picture

yeah, I'm a "tad touchy" - not you?

lol.

if you want to make a point relative to anything, let me know - but gettin' tag-teamed by you and yer pal newman isn't of interest to me.

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 23:15 | 4819050 Miffed Microbio...
Miffed Microbiologist's picture

You have all the relevance on ZH. This is obvious. And I have never seen you gush over your "pals" with virtual high fives. Also innocent. You have always presented the facts in an objective impartial manner free from innuendo or slights. That anyone would suggest otherwise would be an outrage. Your presented facts are fair, balanced and never cherry picked to make your case. You're willingly embrace others with contrary views and discuss their merits and problems with equal weight. And above all, you exemplify humility and concede points even during hot debate and never debase yourself with personal attacks. What would ZH be without you?

Miffed;-)

Wed, 06/04/2014 - 19:41 | 4824096 Cathartes Aura
Cathartes Aura's picture

y'know, no one is challenging you for the title of "Miss ZH" - certainly not me.

so pull in yer claws and chill.

 

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 23:49 | 4819115 Abbie Normal
Abbie Normal's picture

Or the other simple reason that there are so many gun deaths is because it's so much easier than using a knife, baseball bat, kung-fu, etc.  That Korean kid at Virginia Tech probably couldn't have killed 1/4 as many without guns.  Or the one at the Montreal Polytechnic Institute, who resorted to a knife when he ran out of bullets (which were not available to purchase without a permit in Quebec.)  He smuggled the gun in from Vermont but forgot to buy more ammo.  And don't forget all of the suicides that occur by gun -- are those even counted in the total gun deaths?  Banning guns ain't the solution because it's too late for that.  But statistics have a habit of taking care of problems and the most important statistic when it comes to gun ownership is that a gun in the house is 4X more likely to harm than to protect your loved ones.

Tue, 06/03/2014 - 02:44 | 4819399 goldsansstandard
goldsansstandard's picture

Thats a bullshit lefty meme.

How do you measure the number of times a gun protects a family.

A guy jumped over the fence of my building in Baltimore. My tennant Tammy just walked up the stairs and banged the gun against the window.
The intruder fled.
Where is the statistic for that.

Not to mention the general fear of invading a house if there is no certainty about it being gun free.How many times has that happened??

And how many lives have been taken by the guns of the State against unarmed populations.

Hundreds of millions.

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 20:18 | 4818568 Armed Resistance
Armed Resistance's picture

Hey dipshit, I hate to break it to you but the US is a failed state as well.  Our cartel controls all of this country, straight out of the Federal Reserve.  

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 20:26 | 4818590 giorgioorwell
giorgioorwell's picture

Semantics but I think you misunderstand the definition of "failed state"...a failed state is when the government/oligarchy is no longer in control, and essentially no one is in control, and you end up with warlords and drug cartels beheading people on the side of the road.  Other exampes include Somalia, Yemen, most of Afghanistan.

The US government and the FED/oligarchy are very much in control, which is large part of the problem.  I agree with Ron Paul on that front.     

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 21:15 | 4818712 Crawdaddy
Crawdaddy's picture

So an un-failed state has dominion over it's inhabitants whether they want it or not? And that is somehow good?

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 20:26 | 4818591 giorgioorwell
giorgioorwell's picture

Semantics but I think you misunderstand the definition of "failed state"...a failed state is when the government/oligarchy is no longer in control, and essentially no one is in control, and you end up with warlords and drug cartels beheading people on the side of the road.  Other exampes include Somalia, Yemen, most of Afghanistan.

The US government and the FED/oligarchy are very much in control, which is large part of the problem.  I agree with Ron Paul on that front.     

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 20:43 | 4818632 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Was that a double tap? ;-)

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 22:53 | 4818987 flyingcaveman
flyingcaveman's picture

Ask yourself if they are going to protect your disarmed ass when they lose control.  They aint going to be controlling shit when the money won't buy anything.  It isn't going to pay for police protection for them and it isn't going to pay for police protection of you.

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 20:19 | 4818571 Pure Evil
Pure Evil's picture

Ok, I'll answer the question you posed.

The reason we have more mass shootings is because the people doing the mass shootings are all spaced out on anti-depressants or SSRI's.

All mass shootings since Columbine have involved some form of anti-psychotic drug administered by a psychotherapist or a psychiatrist handing out anti-psychotic drugs like a PEZ dispenser.

Since the California rich kid was seeing a therapist I can lay bets that he was also taking some type of anti-depressant prescribed to him. Even though I have yet to hear or read about this. Since the MSM has done everything possible to keep this knowledge away from the viewers in the past about past mass murderers since Columbine we can pretty well accept this kid was also spaced out.

The way they force feed the male children in US public schools all types of drugs from SSRI's to Ritalin to control so called hyperactivity disorder just like they forced fed SSRI's to the troops in Iraq and Afghanistan I'm surprised there's not even more mass shootings by young males in this country.

Before assholes like you came along it was considered perfectly normal for a kid to own a .22 rifle and go shooting or hunting. Kids use to bring their rifles to school to participate in the schools shooting club. Owning a gun in America was the norm not the aberration people like you make it out to be.

Before anti-psychotics were handed out to male children by the hundreds of thousands mass murders in this country were unknown unless you go back to the frontier days.

Taking anti-psychotics is like taking methamphetamine or any other drug, eventually the tolerance level builds and more of the drug is needed to produce the same effect.

I'm not going to go into how SSRI's and Ritalin affect the serotonin and dopamine levels in one's brain much less how it would affect young males and violence levels. For that you'll have to look it up on the web.

But, if you actually took the time to look at the FBI statistics you would find out that the majority of murders in this country are committed by gang bangers in major urban populations that deal in drugs. Does this sound familiar to the situation in Mexico?

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 20:30 | 4818605 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Boom, the truth hurts...+1.

"Before anti-psychotics were handed out to male children (edit, like candy) by the hundreds of thousands mass murders in this country were unknown unless you go back to the frontier days.

Taking anti-psychotics is like taking methamphetamine or any other drug, eventually the tolerance level builds and more of the drug is needed to produce the same effect.

I'm not going to go into how SSRI's and Ritalin affect the serotonin and dopamine levels in one's brain much less how it would affect young males and violence levels. For that you'll have to look it up on the web."

///////////

But I will...one of the few times I'll work for free:

PRLog (Press Release) - Jan. 4, 2013 - The International Society for Ethical Psychology and Psychiatry (ISEPP) today issued a statement calling for a Federal investigation into the link between psychotropic drugs and mass murder.

In the statement ISEPP notes that many individuals who have committed mass violence have been on psychotropic drugs or withdrawing from them. The statement cites the scientific evidence that this link between taking psychotropic drugs and committing mass murder is not coincidental. It cites the evidence that psychiatric drugs can cause akathesia, a state of extreme agitation and upset that is associated with acts of violence and criminality; that the drugs impair emotional processing and therefore take away conscience and caring, and; that the drugs cause people to lose awareness of how they are behaving and control over their behavior."

http://www.prlog.org/12053258-isepp-calls-for-federal-investigation-into-the-link-between-psychotropic-drugs-and-mass-murder.html

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 21:24 | 4818731 Cathartes Aura
Cathartes Aura's picture

I'm no advocate of any pharma, particularly mass usage of brain-meds that amrkns gobble down daily in order to numb their reality even more - however,

Before anti-psychotics were handed out to male children by the hundreds of thousands mass murders in this country were unknown unless you go back to the frontier days.

is not true.  there have been "serial killers" and "mass murderers" all throughout amrkn history, the majority are white males - not 100%, just the majority, okay.

here's a wiki-list of just the convicted ones. . .

so it's obviously just the tip of the iceberg.

 

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 22:20 | 4818889 Miffed Microbio...
Miffed Microbiologist's picture

Why does it always come back to white males? I am frankly tired of the white male as the source of ( ok, MAJORITY, not 100%) our problems today. Statistically, though women do not murder as often as males, they primarily murder those closest to them. Children, parents, husbands. Men have higher rates of random murders. Bar fights, robberies. So what do we do with these facts? To quantify such things seems worthless if no solution can be formulated from the data. Shall we eliminate a percentage of the white males from the population and expect a concurrent drop in murder percentages? Each murder case has a multitude of variables and circumstances. You have chosen 2 attributes to focus, race and sex. Nothing of meaning can be drawn from such simplicity and can only feed bias.

Miffed;-)

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 22:41 | 4818957 Cathartes Aura
Cathartes Aura's picture

as I said, welcome home Miffed.

my post was a reply on topic - read the post replied to, k?  I can understand you being "frankly tired" of the facts - I am too - but they exist.

the rest of your post is just emoting for your own pleasure,

You have chosen 2 attributes to focus, race and sex. Nothing of meaning can be drawn from such simplicity and can only feed bias.

all I pointed out was a fact.  one that most here will either excuse, talk around, or ignore - and whenever you reply to any of my posts, it is always from the same angle.  what is it you expect me to answer to?

 

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 22:25 | 4818893 Fedaykinx
Fedaykinx's picture

using absolute terms was a mistake but his overall point still stands.  even if the statistical chances of someone going off the rails stayed the same (which i doubt) back in the day more people were armed and i would think that the aggressor was much more likely to be met significantly earlier in the incident with deadly force that didn't involve waiting for the police to show up, thus limiting the number of casualties inflicted.

i don't doubt for a second that the majority of mass murdering assholes in the u.s. have been white, but i'd probably guess that has more to do with population distribution than anything else.

murder and hate are universal.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rampage_killers

to paraphrase ice T, i'll give up my guns when everyone else does.  you first.

 

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 22:30 | 4818919 nmewn
nmewn's picture

"i don't doubt for a second that the majority of mass murdering assholes in the u.s. have been white"

lol...neither do I, in the same way that the majority of car accidents involve Chinese...in China.

Still waiting on Zhao Zimmerman in a hoodie to break that mold though ;-)

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 22:50 | 4818982 One World Mafia
One World Mafia's picture

There are big differences between serial killers and the rash of school shooters that are now commonplace.  Serial killers are especially careful not to get caught and like to spend time with each individual victim usually while slowly torturing them. 

If you read the manifesto of the latest victim, he sounds jacked up on something, writing copious notes that display his insanity yet coherent unlike the notes of a schizophrenic.

Tue, 06/03/2014 - 00:08 | 4819136 Peak Finance
Peak Finance's picture

Sigh... More Bullshit

From the FBI:

Myth: Serial killers are all white males.

Contrary to popular belief, serial killers span all racial groups. There are white, African-American, Hispanic, and Asian serial killers. The racial diversification of serial killers generally mirrors that of the overall U.S. population.

• Charles Ng, a native of Hong Kong, China, killed numerous victims in Northern California, in concert with Robert Lake.

• Derrick Todd Lee, an African-American, killed at least six women in Baton Rouge, Louisiana.

• Coral Eugene Watts, an African-American, killed five victims in Michigan, fled the state to avoid detection, and murdered another 12 victims in Texas, before being apprehended.

• Rafael Resendez-Ramirez, a native of Mexico, murdered nine people in Kentucky, Texas, and Illinois, before turning himself in.

• Rory Conde, a Colombian native, was responsible for six prostitute homicides in the Miami, Florida area.

http://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/publications/serial-murder

 

Basically, for the logically challenged, this means that races commit serial killings at their rate of the population. So, if the population is mostly white, the serial killers will be mostly white. This is unlike other crime statistics where the white offense rate is generally vastly lower. So, while the "most serial killers are white" is technically true, it's misleading because it makes one assume that the rate of white serial killing is higher than the other races.

This is not un-controversial, as recent studies quoted in this book show that other races do in fact offend (comitt more serial killings) than whites:

http://www.amazon.com/Rise-Black-Serial-Killer-Documenting/dp/1475012802

So, at best whites are at par, or possibly over-counted as serial killers. 

 

OR did I just suckerd into responding to another asshole troll? 

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 20:14 | 4818557 Armed Resistance
Armed Resistance's picture

You are a moron.  You are taking every reported "mass-shooting" as a fact.  I, along with many other critical thinkers do not.  So your proposed question in my mind lacks merit.

But to be fair, I will answer your question- It is a uniquely American problem BECAUSE of our complicit STATE CONTROLLED MEDIA!  The events you speak of are entirely or partially fabricated to keep turds like you salivating over gun control.  Yet the real "mass shootings" that happen on the streets of Chicago every day go un-reported because they don't fit the meme.  And that reality is that GUN CONTROL DOESN'T WORK.

 

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 20:24 | 4818581 Pure Evil
Pure Evil's picture

The "mass shootings" don't fit the meme because it goes against all cognitive dissonance to have gang bangers shooting other people over drugs and turf in a gun free liberal utopia.

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 23:54 | 4819107 Government need...
Government needs you to pay taxes's picture

I hypothesize the answer is multi-factoral, but involves: (1) the US's glorious ethnic diversity which contributes to our disproportionate rate of violent crime (including gunplay).  Specifically Negros, but also Latinos contribute disproportionately to violent crime in the US.  I dont take a position on whether this factually-demonstrable trend is due to nature or nurture.  I would suggest, however, that only an exceptional people can win their freedom the way patriots took it from the British.  With exception freedom comes exceptional responsibility.  The Founders knew it, and George Washington, who could have been King, rode off to his farm in Virginia.  This is an extraordinary outcome, as was the writing of the Constitution.  270+ years on, we've lost that elite edge.  We've got folks who refuse to take responsibility for feeding themselves.  Instead, we've got 'politicians' who take $1.00 from a successful person, funnel $0.40 directly to their pocket, and give $.60 to their friend to provide a meal for the irresponsible.  Result?  $0.10 gets used to feed the hungry.  (2)  There is at least one other significant contributor, namely the 2nd Amendment right to keep and bear arms.  Having more guns around means that when you go a-killin', you're more likely to use a firearm.  This argument should bleed through to suicide method stats.  Look up the suicide methods of US versus Canadian citizens.  Tough to demonstrate a statistically significant delta between suicides per 10,000 in these 2 geographies, but it is easy to discern a difference in the ways these 2 people kill themselves.  In Canada, guns are used in 10-15% of suicides, while hanging is ~45%.  In the US, these 2 methods are nearly reversed.  (3) There is an ENORMOUS value US society places on the power of the firearm.  Every Federal government agency is gunning up faster than the NRA can say 'right ot bear arms'.  Sub-machine guns firing .40 hollow point ammo from 30-round mags, body armor that would stop everything smaller than a 7.62 mm rifle round, and a round of light tanks for the table of policemen over there is now commonplace.  It's a wonder the USDA employee can toddle around the meat counter packin all that heat.  Ditto for the IRS paper-pusher. It is clear the government has a strong desire for its employees to be ready and capable of neatralizing an enemy platoon.  This is a very bad example to set for US citizens, and it is downright hypocritical to be trying to take guns away from us while they're loading for bear.  (4) In the US, guns are glorified.  Look @ US cinema (now and in 1950).  It's all about guns, glory, and gore.  Today, cinema is reinforced by video games whose sole goal is to blow as many living objects to hell as possible.  Gun depictions are as authentic as possible, save for the fact that a 3rd-grader couldn't possibly hold up, much less aim a 6-barreled 20mm mini-gun with its 2,000 round ammo backpack.  While little Jimmie is gunning down those video game villians, he can also be immersed in a wall of 'music' comprising hip-hop byotch-pistolwhippin', and one-eight-seven on an undercover cop.  I do get a little adrenaline flowing when I hear Biggie sing 'Kick in the door, wave in the 4-4, all I heard was Poppa, dont hit me no more'.  

To conclude, I'm an ardent supporter of the 2nd Amendment, and I value liberty 1000x more than 'safety'.  Further, I argue that one cannot be safe from the worst forms of tyranny (genocide, forced moves to workcamp/FEMAcamp/ghetto) without the citizenry being armed.  Finally, for every 20th century example of citizens being disarmed without genocide occurring within 20 years, I'll give you one where genocide followed disarming the citizens within 20 years.

 

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 20:15 | 4818560 flyingcaveman
flyingcaveman's picture

http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/fv9311.pdf  Its the "urban youth", factor out that and the rest of the USA is as safe as any european country.  You really shouldn't stereotype an entire country as having a "culture-of-violence" when its clear whose culture the violence is coming from.

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 21:09 | 4818702 Government need...
Government needs you to pay taxes's picture

If I'm choosing between risk of murder from a crazy with a gun and risk of genocide from a crazy government that took everyone's guns, I'm gonna go 'crazy with a gun for $200, Alex'

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 19:03 | 4818388 IridiumRebel
Mon, 06/02/2014 - 19:18 | 4818437 Headbanger
Headbanger's picture

THAT IS FUCKING AWESOME!!

 

ROFLMFAOSPMYIWAOMNF!!

(Rolling On the Floor Laughing My Fucking Ass Off Spilling My Irish Whiskey All Over Me Now Fuck!!)

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 21:02 | 4818686 Crawdaddy
Crawdaddy's picture

Great now I have to stock up on 16 penny nails. Stand back in amazement as the Post Office buys up all the hollow point 16 penny nails.

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 19:21 | 4818446 kchrisc
kchrisc's picture

Another word for insane: "Liberty," and I'm a whole lot of insane.

Come and get 'em.

Or put another way: Who were the insane, the Bundys and their supporters or the thugs and thieves that came to steal their cattle and land under threat of force.

"Guns don't kill people, mostly people in uniform do."

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 19:29 | 4818462 A Lunatic
A Lunatic's picture

Whats the difference between a horrible car crash that kills five people and and mass shooting that kills five people......??

 

Not a fucking thing..........

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 21:08 | 4818693 Pure Evil
Pure Evil's picture

OK, I'll play. The difference is that they've only just recently started the "War on Cars" as opposed to they've been implementing the "War on Guns" since the mid to late 1800's. Although the "War on Drunk Driving" has been going on just a tad longer than the "War on Cars".

The "War on Guns" got into high gear during the 1920's with the advent of higher powered weaponry like the Thomson Sub-Machine Gun and Browning Automatic Rifle. Once the criminals of the prohibition ear started carring better weaponry than the cops did the FEDS step in full force to start denying Americans there right to keep and bear arms.

And, what is the "War on Cars" all about. Well its a war to take away one more liberty on what used to be called Freedom of the Road.

Eventually these assholes will even want to control when one uses the toilet.

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 21:41 | 4818773 kchrisc
kchrisc's picture

The difference is that the pols, crats and banksters know that when the time comes, it will not be cars that will be turned on them.

And it's hard to hide a car behind  a "blade of grass."

 

"I wonder what they will think of my guillotine?!"

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 19:36 | 4818483 pitz
pitz's picture

The Soviet Union apparently diagnosed, and subsequently drugged dissidents with the medication by the name of "Haldol" to put them into a stupor for years. 

http://obsidianwings.blogs.com/obsidian_wings/2008/05/back-in-the-uss.html

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 22:40 | 4818951 kchrisc
kchrisc's picture

Here in the DC US the drug of choice is "Television." The generic is "TeeVee."

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 19:39 | 4818495 Duc888
Duc888's picture

 

 

If any REAL mental health screening went on in DC, the place would be a goddamned ghost town.

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 19:46 | 4818506 Duc888
Duc888's picture

 

giorgioorwell

The problem is I've yet to see anyone in the pro-Gun camp have any good arguments/explanations for why of all the developed/civilized countries in the world, the US is the ONLY one where mass (and non-mass) shootings happen with numbing regularity.  Yes, they do happen worldwide occasionally, but with nowhere near the regularity as the US.

 

SSRI's you dum-ass.  Find one cuntry in the world who drugs their young ones LEGALLY as much as USSA.

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 20:03 | 4818540 giorgioorwell
giorgioorwell's picture

Wow, someone who did actually attempt to answer the question.  It's a creative answer, I'll give you that.

European countries are very much drugged up to their eyeballs as well thanks to that being the cheapest "fix" with their socialized medical systems.  The Big Pharma is just as prevalent there, and quite a few of the Big Pharma's are based in Europe.

The UK has just as much prescription pill addiction as the US, and equally pissed off and dissaffected youth. They just prefer to stab each other.

 

Mon, 06/02/2014 - 21:09 | 4818703 Pure Evil
Pure Evil's picture

Ah, so taking away the guns hasn't stopped the murder rate at all.

What douche bag you are.

Trying to blame guns for human behavior.

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