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The Shadowy Commander Of The East Ukraine Insurgency Speaks
Not much is known about Igor Strelkov, the man AP dubbed "the face of the insurgency in eastern Ukraine", and the fact that he keeps an ultra low profile certainly doesn't help his public image, if certainly boosting his shadowy, mystical status. However, yesterday in the aftermath of the swearing in of Ukraine's new president Poroshenko, Strelkov gave an extensive interview in which he laid out not only the "separatists" take on recent events in Ukraine but how they view the armed resistance strategically, and what, if any, the endgame is.
In any event, the following interview will certainly not be available on any western media outlets so for those who believe in hearing both sides of the story to development an informed opinion, read on.
Most Recent Interview by Strelkov, via @Gbazov
I believe that the situation will change for the worse, because now this so-called “legitimate” President immediately will turn to NATO countries, to Western countries, for help, asking, first and foremost, for military help.
We can then expect to be confronted with new NATO tanks, helicopters, aircraft, advisors, instructors, mercenaries. There will be greater numbers of shells, troops and victims. This is all that I expect from this so-called “inauguration.”
This morning [June 7, 2014] there was again artillery shelling of the Artem neighbourhood of Slavyansk. There our checkpoints are located along the perimeter, but the enemy regularly shells homes in civilian neighbourhoods. Specifically, the shells exploded here, here, near the Lenin Hospital, and here.
The enemy can “boast” that they finished off two of their broken-down “BMD” APCs. Well, more accurately, not “BMD” APCs, just APCs. These we had long ago taken apart into spare parts. So they hit these remaining shells; they finished them off, so to say.
With respect to infantry, we are facing a ratio of approximately 5-6 to 1. For one of my fighters there are 5-6 enemy soldiers. This is specifically with respect to the troops stationed directly near the city. Apart from that, there are also 50-60 pieces of heavy artillery, which is dedicated specifically to shelling the city. Also 1-2 Grad systems. A lot of tanks. These elements we cannot, unfortunately, engage directly, given the distance of 1.5-2 kilometres.
All in all, the ratio of forces remains very much not in our favour. So, although the enemy has moved a portion of its forces from our theatre and transferred it, as far as I can tell, to protect the border, nevertheless, we are having a difficult time holding our ground. As a result, first and foremost, we need active help in the form of armoured vehicles, long-range AA elements, and artillery. This is so because the greater part of the enemy artillery force conducts attacks from positions that we are unable to reach.
That is to say, they bombard us from long-range positions of absolute safety. All we can do is dig into the ground, build reinforced installations, but we are unable to counteract them in any way. Unfortunately, our mortars simply do not reach the positions of their heavy howitzers. No wonder, as we are facing such calibres as 240mm. The holes left by shells from these weapons in Semyonovka are easily identifiable.
It has become apparent, long ago, to anyone with even a superficial interest in military affairs that it is far easier to storm an intact city than a destroyed city. The Germans, in their time, got confirmation of this rule at Stalingrad. Yes, they are counting on being able to force the population out of here. And they claim that [once the population evacuates], they would be able to storm the city. In fact, this is simply a way to save face.
A significant part of the population, at least in Semyonovka and Cherevkovka, has already left. Semyonovka has barely anyone left. Same with Cherevkovka. And yet, they do not attempt to storm them. There is one simple reason why: they understand full well that they will suffer significant casualties. Their infantry does not exhibit sufficient fortitude, whether on attack or in defence. In effect, they are simply exacting vengeance against us for precision strikes against their artillery positions, their checkpoints, against their armoured vehicles. They are taking out their anger by carpet-shelling civilian neighbourhoods. In theory, it is possible that they believe they are firing at our positions; however, in 90% of cases they hit areas where we have no fighters present.
They conducted strikes against Nikolaevskaia Power Plant specifically with the intent of taking it out of commission, so at to cut off electrical supplies not only to our city, but to a whole number of cities in the north of Donbass region. In fact, this was a direct attack intended to destroy the infrastructure that feeds urban and industrial regions. The same can be said about the continuing bombardment of industrial locations. In sum, we are witnessing purposeful destruction of the industrial complex. You can draw an analogy to an old joke about a Ukrainian who says “Even if I can’t eat it, at least I’ll bite it.” In other words, if I can’t have you, no one can. About right.
I am predicting that not only the Slavyansk region, which, at this time, acts as a shield for the Lugansk and Donetsk oblasts/provinces, but also the entire territory of Lugansk and Donetsk regions will turn into a battlefield. It is obvious that no one will stop this military operation; no one is intending to terminate it. More than that, military elements are being used that are entirely excessive in fighting against small guerilla units. In fact, these elements are more-or-less useless. In a manner of saying, they are using cannons to shoot down birds. All of this will continue further, it will be transferred to Donetsk, to Gorlovka, to Makeevka, to Lugansk, to all the other cities and parts of the region. At least that’s how the Ukrainian army is acting. These are the conclusion that can be drawn from what the Ukrainian army is doing. This will turn into a humanitarian catastrophe not just at the scale of a city, but on the regional, possibly the world scale. I say this because there are over six (6) million inhabitants [in the region] that will become the targets of this very dumb, very unprofessional, very careless military machine. While guerillas (and we are, in fact, guerillas), i.e. militia, are able to defend cities, are able to repel infantry and even tank attacks by the enemy, we are, unfortunately, incapable of defending the region from airstrikes and artillery shelling. Equally, we are unable to destroy [artillery and aviation] because the ratio of the opposing forces remains disturbingly [not in our favour]. Regardless of how many volunteers we are able to field (and, first of all, we are unable to arm all of them, to this date we lack everything – rifles, ammo, anti-aircraft elements, and, most important, we lack anti-tank defence systems, including anti-tank artillery), and even if we receive all the necessary equipment and are able to match [Ukrainian] regular forces in combat, this would nevertheless lead to a complete humanitarian catastrophe in the region. Unfortunately, without peacekeeping forces (and I obviously mean Russian peacekeepers, as no other peacekeeping force would be accepted by us here, nor considered a “peacekeeping force”), the region will descend into bloody chaos, lawlessness. Everything that was built over decades would be lost, destroyed.
The Lugansk Republic also finds itself in a very difficult military situation, they must think of defending their own territory, their own cities and population. The one thing I can note is that we are coordinating our activities with the garrison in Lesichansk. This garrison made a request to be included in our command structure. Together with this garrison we are defending this part of the front.
Q: Poroshenko promised Putin that, in the nearest future, the war will be either brought to an end or suspended, in some manner. In your opinion, what did he mean when he said this?
A: I believe that what he meant is that the Ukrainian army will steamroll over the entire Donbass region, will eliminate all those who rose up against the illegitimate Kiev government, all those who rebelled against the discrimination directed against the Russian people, and that, in this manner, he would bring the war to an end. I think this is what he had in mind. An oligarch who sponsored the so-called “Maidan,” who made the most warlike claims and adopted extreme positions while still a Presidential candidate, who is a puppet controlled directly by the United States of America, this oligarch cannot change who he is in one day or one night. Of course, what he means is that he plans to “impose order” with an iron fist, the fist of his punitive forces. Put it bluntly, we saw how they “impose order” from the example of what happened in Krasniy Liman. That is why we will, of course, resist to the last man. We will resist successfully, I am emphasizing this again. The real problem is not that we will be unable to defend ourselves or to withstand attacks by the Ukrainian forces, the problem is that if this war continues indefinitely, the region will fall to a humanitarian catastrophe. As a result Russia will become the recipient of millions of disenfranchised, impoverished and angry refugees. Everything that was built, created over decades, if not centuries, will be destroyed.
We continue to prevail over them again and again, on all fronts. Nowhere have they been able to achieve a victory of any real significance. They were able to overwhelm our garrison of one hundred in Krasniy Liman by throwing a force of three thousand (3,000) and coming against them from all sides. Even so … And where they have to square off against a more-or-less trained, numerous, at least somehow provisioned force, they always, regularly suffer defeat. They cannot advance even a step. Their tactic consists of filling the landscape with troops, tanks, APCs, and artillery, and defending themselves, in hopes that, without numerical and equipment parity, we would be unable to push them from their positions. In effect, their positions at Mount Karachun are an example of this approach. We are unable to kick them out of Karachun first and foremost because their force is at least three times the size of my garrison [in Slavyansk].
We are blessed with excellent morale and fighting spirit, our fighters are highly motivated, while they have a great deal of old, but still effective “metal” [Note: i.e. armoured vehicles] that fights against our militia.
Ukrainian mass media lies, lies without end. They lie so unapologetically that Goebbels would have envied their style. He is probably turning in his grave now. And, so, they are interested in ensuring that no one else is able to provide this information. And, because Western media, to a large degree, plays along with its Ukrainian colleagues, and provides only such information that benefits Ukraine, the Russian media becomes their natural enemy. As a result, they consider the Russian media their direct enemy in the field of informational warfare.
With respect to international law and norms, they never cared for them on bit. For example, here they use cluster bombs and similar [illegal] weapons. They shoot, and, as you correctly pointed out, remove entire township from the face of the Earth. They shell cities. They will continue in this manner with ever-increasing [brutality]. This is because they experience no material opposition [to what they do]. They have no other tactic. They are unable to take up their weapons and go on attack, go storm our positions face-to-face with us, despite their profound numerical advantage in troops. As soon as their infantry faces direct combat, it retreats. They retreat even if supported by tanks. They abandon their tanks and retreat. They understand that their infantry is not combat-worthy. Their only option is to shell us from afar, again and again and again, and hope to inflict the greatest possible destruction.
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Mad dog McCain and his asshole buddy Lindsey Graham can hardly wait until US troops are sent to the Ukraine.
And here I was thinking Obama's calling the shots...
The rabid fascist warmongering behavior is decidedly Bi Partisan in the good ole USA -
I like it when the tribe sponsored Ukrainian government discriminates against Russians the Russians pick up guns and start killing the bastards. We need to send pics of the bankers that stirred up this shit to them.
As it should be.
It would be nice if instead of civil war the banker perpetrators of violence were plastered on the internet with addresses, phone numbers, mistress addresses, and all relevant information so any interested party could pay for a hit on the cockroach banker class. Until these bastards are killed on a regular basis the wrong people will die.
Vietnam, part 2.
nyet different terrain
Afghanistan III.
How long will it take the Ukrainians to realize that if Russian civilians are a target, then Ukrainian civilians are as well? If they break them up into small cells by throwing large formations at them, things will get very ugly in Western Ukraine.
Not advocating this ... simply predicting that it will happen.
"Not advocating this ... simply predicting that it will happen."
I actually don't think it will. You might see isolated incidents, but as a general strategy I doubt anyone in command would sanction it. Why give up the moral high ground when you don't have to? As it stands, the resistance is unassailable in the cities, which is why the artillery attacks. No one want to engage these guys on their own turf and for good reason. Urban battlefields are a death trap for invaders, as was the case with Stalingrad which both sides in this conflict have studied.
At present, the UK's only strategy is to try and draw Russia into the fight so they can scream to NATO for assistance. For that reason, I doubt you'll see any direct Russian involvement. These guys are on their own, and as such can win. All they have to do is sit tight until the regime in Kiev collapses.
If this thing isn't over by the fall, I suspect the UK will be largely without heat and electricity this coming winter. Let's see how well they operate under those conditions.
This man reminds me of a young Josip Broz (aka Tito). I.e. for those who actually know something about Tito, rather than the MSM punchlines they were taught and are regurgitating.
I thought he reminded me of a young Nipsey Russel!!
Valerie Jarrett calls the shots. Obama is just a figurehead.
Even she has a hand up her...eh, she's a sock puppet.
Obama doesn't call any shots. He just reads speeches and follows orders, no matter how ridiculous.
WHO are the fools who call the shots? We have a largely invisible, informal Politburo - sad to say, it's composed of half wits.
Time to buy concrete pavers at Home Depot, $1 each. Create a barrier in your sleeping space. It'll protect you from gamma rays emitted by the fallout. N95-rated dust masks are a good idea, too.
Bush? Clinton? Obama? Same sort of puppet pscychopaths.
They appoint skank sociopath underlings like Condi Rice or Susan Rice or Nuland or Yellen.
All bought & paid for war criminals of the NWO.
And why are these separatist idiots fighting again?
No reason worth destroying the lives and health and security of 6 million people over, that's for sure.
War happens when one side of a dispute refuses to be overrun by an aggressor.
And for many, fighting is an acceptable alternative to slavery.
awesome answer.
"What does it matter that the fascist regime is illegitimate, bloodthirsty and a traitor to its own people? If only the separatists didn't choose to fight, then it'd be all over!"
Yeah, of course; the obvious mass killings would be over, ~6 million people would be temporarily safe. But they would all be served on a platter to be fed on by the vampiric world order which is waging a war on all of life.
Perspective. Fighting for what is right vs selling your soul for temporary comfort.
give me a break, please! war, or in this case revolution, happens when common folk get a 'push from behind', which is also known as agitation initiated via propaganda. population in average is, and has always been, in such a stupor that they wouldn't know who to blame for all their endless misery until somebody points the finger, and all of a sudden the stampede begins. genuine revolutions or what have you, could only be brought about by enlightened and informed masses, who, i'm afraid, have almost never existed in the known human history as the independent and unbiased media (or education in general) is a thing of the fairytales.
Spot on.
I think the folks at Maidan were thinking the same thing. Were they supposed to accept slavery and a government that was corrupt by anyone's measure?
In this instance apparently, "corrupt" means unwilling to bend over for the IMF imposed austerity asset rape. Let's see how well the Maidan-nazis enjoy the experience.
Maybe they are fighting because 5 million of the inhabitants are ethnic Russians? Whose "lives and health and security" has been threatened since day one by the CIA-sponsored puppets?
Fuckwit.
Yup, some fuckwits in camo want to carve-off territory for Putin and don't give a damn how many are destroyed and butchered to do it, and warmongering jerks like you will beg for more and more blood until doomsday.
And who paid for the overthrow of the elected government? It sure as fuck wasn't Putin.
Does that have something to do with a clown in camo now carving of territory for Putin as justification for millions getting bombarded for however long this goes on? Some coup months ago serves as some sort of acceptable rationale for separatists bringing this on millions of people for years to come, for you? Are you nuts?
Did you consider that the Ukrainian government, as it is currently composed, might be the one that "separated" from the country over the last twenty years?
The real problem isn't outside intervention by the US, NATO, or Putin... the real problem is that Ukraine has been a fucked up state since it separated from the USSR. It's splitting apart because there was nothing holding it together in the first place.
Sory BB, the real problem is none of that, it's the heavy artillery barages falling on ~6 million people over the next few months to god knows how many years to come. I'm not even the slightest bit interested in any of the justifications or 'logics' everyone has, to take some side or view with.
This is just another classic case of a total and almost incomprehensible lack of any sort of proportion, which I continually see in zh commentary these days.
There are pretty much no sane voices here ... ok, there are a couple still ... but very thin on the ground.
Russia (not necessarily Putin) might decide one day that air support is necessary to protect the Russian population in Eastern Ukraine. Then you friends will be totally and immediately fucked.
Of course, they might also cut the gas first, so the entire Ukrainean population would go through a real "wake-up" moment and maybe (just maybe) reconsider their attitude. It might even happen next week, now that all the "feel good" ceremonies have ended in Europe.
Best part in all that is, your opinion will be remain completely irrelevant for the foreseeable future...
lol ... who are you again?
My guess would be someone who isn't a retreaded hippie obamabot trying to posture himself as a born-again superpatriot.
So, how much did you pay to buy Element's account away from him?
I used to like his contributions, years ago, which used to be very articulate, with a deft touch of argumentative skill and wisdom thrown in. And it's devolved to that?
Your posts are petty, sophistic, full of anger, name calling and cussing. It's disappointing. But we live in apocalyptic times, everything seems to be breaking apart around us, nothing can be depended on anymore; I can understand why many seem to lose themselves. I just didn't expect you to.
You seem to share the western schizoid point of view, and you accept the Kiev regime as a fait accompli. "What does it matter that the fascist regime is illegitimate, bloodthirsty and a traitor to its own people? If only the separatists didn't choose to fight, then it'd be all over!"
Yeah, of course. That'd win the battle all right; the obvious mass killings would be over. But the whole population would be served on a platter to be slowly bled dry by the vampiric world order. Isn't that losing the war?
These people have chosen to fight and die for what is right rather than return to comfort while selling out their kids' future. They deserve our praise and prayers, not your petty sophisms.
Someone obviously smarter than you... now that you asked...
Standing up for what is right. "Not to be dictated by a foreign government " has usually been costly. Just as costly over time to do nothing. Look at the USA ! The people doing the killing and destruction are those claiming to be the legitimate government, backed by the USA. hmmm. There are not many choices that actually make any sense.
Nope, no happy endings or choices in sight Payne. Months ago it was obvious this was going to go steadily downhill, and I think it's going all the way downhill. I'll be surprised if this kills less than six figures.
Add American causalties to that figure.
That retard in the Whitehouse has stumbled on the quickest way to start a war with Russia: fuck around with the former soviet Near Abroad. Condi Rice tried to warn Bush the Younger that screwing around with former soviet states was really fucking dangerous.
You seem to share the western schizoid point of view, and you accept the Kiev regime as a fait accompli, and you blame those who react to the initial slight rather than those who created the mess in the first place. "What does it matter that the fascist regime is illegitimate, bloodthirsty and a traitor to its own people? If only the separatists didn't choose to fight, then it'd be all over!"
Yeah, of course. That'd win the battle all right; the obvious mass killings would be over, these ~6 million people would be safe. But the whole population would be served on a platter to be slowly bled dry by the vampiric world order. And that would be a win for the psychopathic elite who are waging a war on the 8 billion of us.
Perspective hurts. But these people have chosen to fight and die for what is right rather than return to comfort while selling out their kids' future. They deserve our praise and prayers, not your petty sophisms.
Governments are all separated from the people of the country they rule.
That's the real problem - Government.
Oh Jesus, I'm sorry pulled the "coup months ago" non-sequitur out of my ass. You conveniently overlook the fact that it is the illegal regime, with the full support (cue standing ovation) of NATO that is doing the shelling of civilians.
In any event, you should pay close attention, as shit like this is coming to a neighborhood near you - especially if you in or near a large city.
Well, Boston showed the proper response. Just roll over for the master with the carbines and body armor. Pray that they don't throw a flash bang that blows off your kid's face.
You seem to think I support a side, in fact all you idiots assume that, and all I have said is to emphasis that
S I X M I L L I O N P E O P L E
are in the firing line of 240 mm artillery strikes to come, due to some stupid dipshits in camo.
And you bitch about the paper work and hystery of events and want to take sides and stuff?
nice
Jeebus
So, my Carrhart kevlar/plate-carrier bib overalls are ok then?
Element, what should the six million Ukranian people do when they are being attacked ??
edit: sorry tbull, I did not see your question before posting mine?
6 million people are attacked????
No ordinary peoples are attacked, the government only tries to demilitarize militant separatists unwilling to respect LEGAL GOERNMENT AND PRESIDENT. ( did you realized that argument about illegal president, Turchynov, is already gone? )
What do you expect Putin would do if militant separatist in Russia would try to join Ukraine or other country. I'm sure they would be killed much much faster than here in Ukraine.
Simply look for POSITIVE EXAMPLES: Separation of Slovakia and Czech rep. from Czechoslovakia. They acquired first federation of 2 states and later independence of these states. There was absolutely no violence, only political negotiations and then agreements..... and consequently these new independent countries remained friends. This is the way separatist in Ukraine should take as positive example.
They tried that. Held a referendum on independence, got an overwhelming YES vote and declared themselves independent Republics ... so your "legitimate" government is now shelling and bombing their women and children.
How about you take your own advice and let them go if that is what they want ?
basic human instinct your opinion and sentiment will not change says that i will run away or shoot back when someone is shooting at me, you know, fight or flight. as the man said most people have left the battle zone but he has no lack of volunteers who want to shoot back.
now, why do you ignore the other alternative that the ukraine army stop their seige if you want to spare the 6 mil. this flaw in your argument suggests your anguish over the fate of these 6 mil is a little warped.
"Now why do you ...
Its like he needs attention!?!
"S I X M I L L I O N P E O P L E
are in the firing line of 240 mm artillery strikes to come."
Yes, and who ordered that?
Targeting civilians is a war crime.
You forget, some of those civilians are UK nationals who have no part in this fight, they just happen to be there because it's their home. Artillery is very indiscriminate in who it hits, so what you're really dealing with here is a govt. that targets not only ethnic Russian civilians, but their own people as well.
With that kind of govt. is it any wonder the UK army won't fight unless they have Nazi guns at their backs? The only mystery here is why they haven't removed them already.
Well, like every one else you ASSUMED I'm supporting a side, but with ZERO evidence of that.
As far as I can see I appear to be one of perhaps two people in the whole thread so far which hasn't voiced partisan support for any side.
But paradoxically I am the one most accused of supporting a partisan view and side.
[ You fucking idiots! lol ]
And the only one who seems to give one damn about the civilians caught up in what's coming, so it's a bit rich to now be lectured about civilians being bombarded.
Good fucking god zh!
So east Ukraine should give in to the Nazis to save some pro-nazi lives?
No, I don't think he does. But he does make a point that "the men in camo" should have expected the response from Kiev. Either they did, and felt the looming cost was worth paying, or they didn't consider it and illustrates why they shouldn't have been entrusted with the decision to separate in the first place.
It seems like they did consider this outcome but weighed it against the fascist foreign takeover of their existing failed state. Worse, is that Kiev has gone well beyond was was expected by me in the direction of Qaddaffi-esque response. Qaddaffi was bombed for simply having an air force; Kiev is actually USING it's air force. So, it's not hard to see why Crimea and the eastern regions decided to opt out of the Ukraine. Can't fault them one bit if people like Turchinov and Yatseniuk were examples of future national leadership (one is a CIA toady and the other was a Goldman-esque banker).
Now that the Ukrainian people have "elected" an oligarch, it mocks everything the Maidan uprising stood for. That's how some people put it. On the contrary, to me it seemed as if the Maidan uprising was about getting their team captain into power, by hook or by crook. And they suceeded. The last Ukrainian election merely formalized it and painted a thin coat of legitimacy on the whole episode.
All that considered, the real problem here is in Kiev, and it's been there for months now. What I said above could directly be applied to the "leaders of the Maidan" too. Did they honestly think that other more pro-Russian parts of the country would just sit by and dismiss all that Bandera and fascist imagery that was on display in the Square for months? The lawlessness and attacks by "nationalist" forces against the state? Did they honestly think the other side woudl resign to waiting for the next set of elections, which will be overturned by **ANOTHER** NED-sponsored coloured revolution a few years into the future?
It's interesting that the Maidan people could take over buildings, could attack state actors but those in the east cannot...
Ha! So here you are again now but with a different log-in, to run the same trolling line, eh? What, couldn't let it go or did your supervisor say to take another run at it? Did you wear out your other log-in, or did you just forget which one you were using today?
crazzziecanuck = CCanuck
You inept clown.
Element is wrong again..lol....I have no relation to crazziecanuck....check with tyler if you like...if I'm lying..I'm Dying!
don't waste your time. zh has become a platform for astroturfing.
these are old news, i'm sure things have evolved since
Russia’s Former Spooks Invest In Social Networking Propaganda Bots
Russian authorities spend 30 million rubles on social networks monitoring
Facespook: Russian spies order $1mln software to influence social networks
"The auctions on research under the code names Storm-12, Monitor-3 and Dispute were held in January and February 2012. The texts of the three tasks name military unit No. 54939 as the customer looking to develop programs to “study the intelligence methods of Internet centers and regional segments of social networks” (code Dispute) for 4.41 million rubles, “research secret methods of controlling the Internet” (code Monitor-3) for 4.99 million rubles, as well as to conduct research work to develop a “means of distributing specific information in social networks” (code Storm-12) for 22.8 million rubles. All three projects are closely related."
quite similar to us Operation Earnest Voice by contractor Ntrepid
http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2011/mar/17/us-spy-operation-social-networks
Yeah, you're right about the time wasting bit.
"Yeah, you're right about the time wasting bit."
Then why are you wasting yours? Surely there's forum out there somewhere that's more amenable to your views?
If you believe only the Russians are doing this, then you are a total fool.
Many people seem to like Putin because he makes Obama look bad and that Putin has shown more leadership qualities than all Western leaders combined. Think about that for a moment. That says a lot about our society in which we repeatedly offer ourselves up and our futures to the mindless technocrats like Obama, Hollande, Harper and Cameron.
If aliens came down and said "take us to your leader", wouldn't you be kind of ashamed to have to bring them to one of the four above? That's why I say there is intelligent life in the universe, they have been here, they just left because they couldn't find intelligence here in any amount that mattered.
"technocrats like Obama"
You are giving him way too much credit. That term implies that he possesses a body of knowledge.
I really also do believe that a lot of posters here are stuck in some blind ideology that deliberately overlooks certain aspects.
However you are no better this time:
And why are these separatist idiots fighting again?
If you call one side idiots without the slightest modifier, that doesn't leave much room for a reader's interpretation of your overall opinion: it's either both sides are equally stupid (at which it wonders why you go postal over an interview of one side's person), or they're not in your opinion in which case you did indirectly voice partisan support.
No reason worth destroying the lives and health and security of 6 million people over, that's for sure.
I do believe the ultimate call if a reason is given or not is not up to us to make, at least not from the very fragmented information we have.
I'm still waiting for you to lay out exactly what path those civilians should take
- embrace your servitude
- flee (to Russia) without fighting
- fight and prepare to lose and flee
- it's just a misperception: the Ukrainians love them too (see also https://fromtroublesofthisworld.wordpress.com/tag/the-impossible-fact/ )
I said it some months ago (and I was not aware you were waiting for something to be explained, I don't even remember ever discussing anything with you before), but if those civilians and/or separatists want to be Russian then they should approach Russian Immigration and naturalize, then liquidate their assets in Ukraine and fuck right off to their new fav stateist utopia and stop causing trouble and make a new paradisaical life 'n stuff.
No one wants to frustrate their keen patriotic desires to be Russians but there's a formal procedure and due-process involved.
And yes, I would submit that all are idiots, but don't get too caught up on one-liners or try to solve standing existential mysteries with them - just sayin
Well thanks for clearing that up:
Look another sociopath masquerading as peace fighter, and then trying to tell all ZH posters how he is the only one getting it right: "just stick with the rules goddammit!" (whatever those rules are - who made them? Doesn't matter!)
but if those civilians and/or separatists want to be Russian then they should approach Russian Immigration and naturalize, then liquidate their assets in Ukraine and fuck right off to their new fav stateist utopia and stop causing trouble and make a new paradisaical life 'n stuff.
Why should the majority of the population in a particular region (as determined by their earlier referendum) be obliged to up sticks and leave their land, exactly? To preserve the territorial 'integrity' of a state that's only a few years old, and is becoming yet another NWO-supporting oligarchy? What are you smoking tonight, Element? The gangsters in Kiev have no claim to the land/people/spoils of East Ukraine.
The people ordering the shelling are the brigands in Kiev; the citizens of the East of Ukraine have every right to secede and become either independent or part of the Russian Federation.
Frankly, I suspect ther'yr going to be fucked by any government because that's what government does; but they have the same right to chose their rapists that we all should have.
So, why did we bomb Serbia? After all, if all the Albanian Kosovars didn't like being in Serbia, they could have just up and moved to Albania.
but if those civilians and/or separatists want to be Russian then they should approach Russian Immigration and naturalize, then liquidate their assets in Ukraine and fuck right off to their new fav stateist utopia and stop causing trouble and make a new paradisaical life 'n stuff.
Ah, so you are in favor of the ethnic cleansing of Russian speakers then? Maybe the Svoboda pukes can provide cattle cars to move them. Good of you to let us know why you support those ukrainian Svoboda Nazis that the CIA encouraged and supported during the coup.
"Well, like every one else you ASSUMED I'm supporting a side, but with ZERO evidence of that."
"every one else"
You're casting a pretty wide net there, aren't you?
I simply responded to your assertion by pointing out some basic facts. No assumptions there at all.
You seem to want to personalize this debate. Why is that?
Targeting civilians is not a war crime when exceptional Americans are ordering the killing. War crimes are only commined by people who do not support petro dollar system.
I don't take sides either.
It's just that I'm much more against the aggressor: the US and its toadies.
Russia is not anywhere near the evil the US is.
Wrong - because of some stupid dipshits in expensive suits.
People are downvoting you because you leave the distinct impression that you are totally full of shit.
So a foreign power over throws your government, installs extremists that say you can't speak your language anymore, and then runs tanks down the streets, and you're supposed to...? What's the proportionate response?
A strongly worded condemnation tweet?
Draw a red line?
made up of hashtags?
So a foreign power annexes Crimea, a superpower with form says you must hand your naval ships and airbases over to them, and runs weapons into cities full of ethnic separatist Ukrainians, who now claim to be Russian, and you're supposed to...? What's the proportionate response?
Anyone can play those stupid games.
No foreign power annexed Crimea, The People of Crimea, by vast majority voted to be annexed willingly, without bloodshed.
What do you know about who lives in Crimera, and what their ethnicity is?
The People of Crimera chose their path, are you against the will of the people that live there?
Annexation
Ceremonies during the annexation of the Republic of Hawaii. Sarajevo citizens reading a poster with the proclamation of the annexation in 1908. Annexation (Latin ad, to, and nexus, joining) is the forcible acquisition of a state's territory by another state.[1] Usually, it is implied that the territory and population being annexed is the smaller, more peripheral, and weaker of the two merging entities, barring physical size. It can also imply a certain measure of coercion, expansionism or unilateralism on the part of the stronger of the merging entities. Because of this, more positive euphemisms like political union/unification or reunification are sometimes seen in discourse. Annexation differs from cession and amalgamation, because unlike cession where territory is given or sold through treaty, or amalgamation (where the authorities of both sides are asked if they agree with the merge), annexation is a unilateral act where territory is seized and held by one state and legitimized via general recognition by the other international bodies (i.e. countries and intergovernmental organisations).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annexation
--
Was that too complex for you?
But at least you got your troll-logins right for that reply though ... lol
Ya.....wiki links are as complex as breakfast links....the sausage ....wanna see how they are made???
LOL...Element calling me a troll...lol...you owe my a keyboard...can't stop laughing.
Edit: Cleaned keyboard....tell me something were the Indians of North and South America Annexed?
A hint for ya Element, note how I used annexed...the citizens voted for it willingly..get it, or do you need a link?
Element is most likely a jingoist neocon troll pretending to be impartial.
He says nothing about the US being responsible for the happenings in Ukraine.
There is but one aggressor - the US.
element is like neo sean connery or sean neoconnery
Yeah, me and the neocons, we go way back, we were like Frat buds man ...
Great theory, and now you have an equally credible confession to go with it, so I guess I'm totally busted. lol
paranoid much? .. get a life lol
Nah, someone this stupid would have to be a registered Democrat.
Now you're getting somewhere - Stupid games played by a few idiots who think they have the right to tell others what to do.
This kinds spills over to gun control.
If every household in a country had at least one weapon, it would be real hard to invade. Think Switzerland.
If every window you see potentially has a trained gun owner behind it things are likely to go very differently.
The proper response in Crimea is what you saw, celebration. The proper response in Kiev should have been to wake up. I answered your question, why not try answering mine?
The people of Crimea voted to join Russia as opposed to the US backed coup extremist regime. Why not just answer the original question?
Because he doesn't have an answer, other than the butthurt Princess Obama wanting to punish Putin for allowing him to make an ass of himself over Syria.
Does that have something to do with a clown in camo now carving of territory for Putin as justification for millions getting bombarded for however long this goes on? Some coup, months ago, serves as some sort of acceptable rationale for separatists bringing this on millions of people for years to come, for you? Are you nuts?
Tag-teamed by trolls! How much are you assholes being paid, or are you just doing it because you're just a fascist at heart?
Tag-teamed by trolls! How much are you assholes being paid, or are you just doing it because you're just a fascist at heart?
I am far more worried about that clown in a business suit in the Whitehouse who seems hell-bent on starting WWIII because he is butthurt.
I don't know but there was over 100k protesting in Kiev for months during one hell of a cold winter. Seems it would take more than the CIA to mostivate citizens to do that, don't you think?
Someone had to billet and feed these thousands. Where do you think the money came from? Feeding and sheltering tens of thousands of people in the middle of the winter. Hmm. Who paid the bill?
Not only that, there was also documentary evidence that Odimayar (PayPal tycoon) was either donating money to Ukrainian "democracy" NGOs or otherwise fronting NED money for it.
You must love the Cool Aid.
Hey Element,
Let's move the Hells Angels into your next door neighbours house, a particularly rowdy and lawless bunch of the clan let's say, they'll use you're pool when they want, 'borrow' your beer, maybe even your wife (if she's cute), make good use of your car when they need it, and there's nothing you'll be able to do about it. They'll hate you but tolerate you for the use you provide them. That pretty much sums up what will happen to the Southeast Ukrainians as the Kiev junta take's control. The group in Kiev hates Russia, understand that reality and then you can begin to grasp at what will happen within the Ukraine, and specifically to Russian speaking 'ethnic' Russians living within Ukraine. They will fight to the death, I surmise, as the sense of injustice grows (and it is) before becoming the slaves of a violent hate based junta.
If that happened to me, I'd send for Walter White.
Yo. Mr White would totally subtract their asses!
Seems like the thing to do when you are threatened with total ethnic cleansing...
fight back
... until you're exterminated (see Sprelkov admission that they are tragically outnumbered out-equipped). Unless Putin comes and does something.
Sprelkov's admission is more about druming support, what do you think the Kiev/Ukrainian army's chances are of eliminating Russian speaking Ukrainians from the area?
IMO...This can only happen if WWIII breaks out.
I used to think that Kiev could either be restrained both internally and externally. On the internal front, I don't see this ever happening as I never expected Kiev would be so **STUPID** to order a full-on military assault using **ARTILLERY** and **AIRSTRIKES**. It's clear Kiev hasn't really thought things through or do not have adequate leadership that can. Kiev has openned up a Pandora's box and it's only escape is to constantly blame Russia. Russia was able to annex Crimea because Crimea didn't want to be part of the Ukraine; it has attemped REPEATED referenda since 1994 only to be blocked by Kiev at each attempt.
We all know that government policy directions do not turn on a dime; the Obama administration is an excellent example of failed promises and deception. It's likely very much the same in Kiev. Those currently in the halls of power do not want to see change. If you bump off Yanukovitch and put someone in the Poroschenko, they can live with that. So when the Crimea and eastern parts of the country start to bawk at Kiev, which has been mismanaging state affairs for nearly three decades, what response did people expect? Federalization of the state is a direct threat to the Kiev political establishment, hence the vicious response by the state.
Kiev alienated Crimea, and it's now hopelessly alientating the eastern parts of the country too. Leaders do not divide countries like a spoil of war nor do they resort to overwhelming military force to suppress a rag-tag bunch of civilian weekend warriors. Which is why Kiev is so desperate to make up all sorts of stories about Russian bearded men and providing photographic "proof".
As for external pressure, there isn't any. While Libya got bombed for merely having the potential to use them against civilian targets, the Kiev regime is actively using them now. These are the kinds of lessons other nations are figuring out for themselves
"....I never expected Kiev would be so **STUPID** to order a full-on military assault using **ARTILLERY** and **AIRSTRIKES**. It's clear Kiev hasn't really thought things through or do not have adequate leadership that can."
It's the only card they have at this point. Slaughter innocent civilians, using that outrage to try and draw in the Russians, then cry foul to NATO.
If they engage in urban warfare, they'll lose. Lesson of Stalingrad. Also, the more conscripts they lose, the louder the voice of the mothers will grow. Do not underestimate the power of Ukrainian mothers whose sons are in harm's way. They are a force to be reckoned with.
They won't be completely exterminated. The war will simply move to western ukraine citizens and CIA advisors being targeted.
Ethnic cleansing??? LOL! Absolutely nothing to support that.
If this wasn't a war by Putin to get more resources why wouldn't he just have the "Russians" of Ukraine move to Russia? Hell, the way they are losing population they could use some immigration don't you think?
At the current birth/death rate Russia will be a depopulated country in 50 years.
Riiiiight... because the East Ukrainians should leave their land and possessions because breaking up Ukraine is itself a great evil. For some reason.
Get this, dipshit: territories don't have rights. People have rights. And the people of East Ukraine don't want to be ruled by Kiev any more. So the map-makers get to draw some more lines on a map.
Ethnic cleansing??? LOL! Absolutely nothing to support that.
You mean apart from Tymoshnko suggesting exactly that?
Element advocated ethnic cleansing.
If you are going to defend him, you had best read his posts.
"Maybe they are fighting because 5 million of the inhabitants are ethnic Russians?"
As Ukraine has existed for centuries as a sovereign state, I'm still trying to understand how it is that 5 million recently placed Russians seem to have a claim there.
Just saying...
There is blame on the East and West, and Ukraine caught in the middle as usual.
and by Ukraine has existed for centuries as a sovereign state you mean since 1991? The region where these people live was part of the Russian empire for centuries though.
And France and England were part of the Roman empire for centuries...,
My point is still a valid argument.
No, not really.
You don't know that the Ukrainian language is a recent invention? Look it up my friend.
Rome left the British Isles centuries before anyone even used the word England. That is a retarded argument.
Countries are just a divide and conquer strategy.
As is race and religion.
Governments will do anything to cause conflict amongst the herds because while the herds are fighting each other they are not fighting the real enemy.
The true battle, and most don't see it, is that between the psychopaths who long for control over others, so they can steal their productivity and those who just want to get on with their lives and be left alone.
I'm an anarchist, mostly because of this.
No leader = no war
Humans are herd animals. There will always be leaders and followers. Unles we evolve into something else.
yeah, well what have the Romans ever done for us?
they are ukranian of russian heritage, kinda like the those hyphenated americans you read about. you are thinking borders are some kind of ethnic demarcation.
More than half of Ukraine would answer YES to that question, I am merely making a point.
"Ukriane has existed for centuries as a soverign state"
false
Perhaps you should read the history of Ukraine (and Russia), after which it will become clearer. Clue - Kievan Rus.
The oligarchs are running the show in Ukraine. I cannot for the life of me understand why the separatists have not sent assasination squads to the west to kill the oligarchs. Once the oligarchs become front line soldiers then the situation will change. But as long as peasant soldiers are content to kill each other nothing will change.
I understand that oligarchs are heavily guarded, but then if you think carefully there are times and places in which they are relatively easy marks.
I am continually amazed at how partizans think in such conventional terms and fail to see that the oligarchs are the real enemy and that the conventional forces at their disposal are useful cover to be bypassed as they render the oligarchs complacent.
Now this is a strategy worth trying.
You'll find their resources ar tied up in some east Ukrainian cities.
That will end when the Ukrainians "win" in the east.
Assassinations turn even the biggest douchebag into a hero. Assassination campaigns may give you a fleeting sense of justice.
If they *really* wanted to go after them, they simply loot their assets in areas they control. Think like Robin Hood not Terminator.
in a world where life is meaningless you are correct. i hope you get the irony.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHpCiygY2GU
Catherine Ann Fitts
Pretty good recent interview (June 1) on Greg Hunter's web cast with a lady who lays it all out. The Rome/USA analogy, drones replace boots on teh ground for the NWO, the destruction of the middle class in the developed world.
She ties it all together about the empire, reserve currency and theft of natural resources of other companies resources. Covert wars.
Is life meaningful in this world?
Just asking.
Element if you'd really like to know why they are fighting, this 25 minute documentary from late April will help. Its made up of interviews and footage of civilians in the Donbas region (as well Odessa)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvxgkIIIVio
Amazing the number of cretins on zh these days who are completely up for war, and to spread it as far and wide as possible.
And then of course they will blame everyone else for encouraging and fanning it.
It's like a bunch of fire bugs on a hot windy day, and just as hungry for homicidal kicks and other entertainments.
If you take the time to watch the video you will see that is mainly footage of civilians who definately do not want war, but it will hopefully help you to understand why they've made the decision to take a defensive stance to defend their homes and cities and confront a well armed modern army. Do you place any blame on the Ukrainian government who has declared war against part of its civilian population? Is it acceptable to you that civilians are attacked by their own government?
I won't be watching your pet justifications for war and murder, I have a capacity for individual comprehension independent of other people's propaganda and preferred views.
you are a stubborn little narcissistic bitch of a government troll.
And you can't stand any sort of freedom of speech which challenges your warmongering.
I'd rather be me any day.
A serious question element..... You do not see the Kiev Gov as warmongerers? Only the civilians of the eastern regions are warmongerers?
I'm not interested in anyone but the six million people now in the firing line of falling heavy artillery shells.
I support no side, and I have said for most of four years that there are no good guys and bad guys on any side.
I'm not interested in sides, I do have views, and they pale into insignificance when shells are going to fall on 6 million people because some camo idiots want to play soldiers and patriots.
I made numerous comments on that in months past and if you didn't notice my comments then I'm not going to reiterate them now, but you can look up the old threads if you like and see for yourself.
Defending your community is warmongering? The Camo dude is helping the local militia's get organized to DEFEND from warmongering corrupt leaders, do you not believe in self-defense?
6 million people in that community are going to get bombarded due to the 'defenders' of their community, who openly admit that can't stop 240 mm artillery or aircraft dropping bombs on cities.
Great 'plan' ... great 'leader' ... can't do shit but happy to foresee and discuss the stupidity that will get 6 million fragged.
Sorry, that's not self-defense, that's what I called it, idiots dressing in camo that will get huge numbers killed.
Tell me, do you "believe" in shell-splinters shredding families in their living rooms? Haven't seen enough of that yet? Or are you like others here and merely addicted to righteous fairy-tales and cheap propaganda?
well, how about, just for starters, Kiev stops the shelling? sound good?
Sounds good, how do you propose that occurs in the circumstances?
Is this a serious question?
I refrain from calling your retarded, or mentally handicapped, as I do not wish to offend those groups as well.
You are a fucking goof!!!!
Yes, it was a completely serious question, with regard to the CIRCUMSTANCES.
Something tells me you really would not like to consider any sort of negotiated end to diffuse much worse to come.
Calling me names will get you nowhere.
we could simply dissolve all borders, everywhere in the world. disband the un, and any other body that would deign to rule internationally. a world without nations, without world government. all people being free to be you and me.
"Something tells me you really would not like to consider any sort of negotiated end to diffuse much worse to come."
Apparently the Chocolate King shares that sentiment.
http://www.dw.de/poroshenko-no-negotiations-with-separatists/a-17619764
No, I do not believe in shredding families, I believe in the right to defend from attack. The people of Eastern Ukraine held a referendum. Overwhelmingly deciding not to recognize the CORRUPT Government in Kiev, for that decision they were attacked, they did not attack, they simply decided to ignore Kiev. In response their communities are being shelled, killed by cowards from a distance, then the men defend the communities and you are against that?
So your line of thinking is the Eastern Ukrainians should just ignore being murdered, and lick the boots in Kiev to stop Kiev from killing them?
Did you see the photos from Odessa. Unarmed Peaceful, Protesting Ukraininans that speak Russian were savagely murdered. A pregnant woman strangled to death with a cord, then set ablaze.
And you ask why these people fight back?
You are just itching to put words in other peoples mouths aren't you?
Maybe you just type what you want me to say and I'll sign it for you?
Or how about you live with your justifications and not worry about reading stuff into what's not been said?
Are you off your meds?
I put words in your mouth?
You wrote: "And why are these separatist idiots fighting again?"
Then you answered your question when you wrote: "Some coup months ago serves as some sort of acceptable rationale for separatists bringing this on millions of people for years to come, for you? Are you nuts?"
Where do you reside, ever have your elected government eleminated in coup? will you roll over and suck the cock of the new corrupt government?
You ignore the facts on the ground and simply justify your "Point of view" as everyone who fights back against corruption is responsible for the shredding of families?
" I'm not even the slightest bit interested in any of the justifications or 'logics' everyone has, to take some side or view with."
"are in the firing line of 240 mm artillery strikes to come, due to some stupid dipshits in camo."
Its not some dipshit in camo firing the artillery is it?......you remind me of kids in a playground...
I punched Jonny in the face because he ignored me....its his fault for not letting me have my way with him!!!
"And then of course they will blame everyone else for encouraging and fanning it."
When a tyrannical governments comes for your property and family will you not fight because it will cause deaths?
Do you support surfdom? Do you live happily under the oppression of your corrupt government leaders?
It is my point of view that the only thing being put in your mouth is a tyrant's cock, as you would not fight back against it's insertion.
I'd tell ya to go fuck yourself if I thought you had any balls. Instead keep that tyrants cock in your mouth, let us know how it works out for you.
wows, you seem a little emotionally invested for some reason. Bit too much dick sucking though.
This is a comment thread, on a blog, you don't like different view points, I get it.
I hate to do it.....because the first rule about Fightclub is....
Too hot for ya, then get the fuck outta the kitchen bitch.
Element serious question..hypothectically...what would you do if you lived in Eastern Ukraine, or Crimea, you speak both languages, but preffered Russian as it was spoken to you by your Gradfather, but also like Ukrainian as that is spoken when talking with your Aunts and Uncles. You are fed up with corrupt governments of Kiev, and you believe that the best thing for your community is alliance with the Russian fedration. You protest peacefully with no success, the elected corrupt government is overthrown by an illegal corrupt government. you hold a vote and the vast majority of your community agrees with independence from Kiev.
Now, because of your heritage, language preference, beliefs and choices; you will be targeted for elimination/cleansing from the land/community that your family has worked for centuries......What would you do????
You don't ask any serious questions, you are a troll, I outed you above, you bait and talk complete shit, and then if reasoned reply comes, you smear and denigrate the reply.
And then you went up and down the thread to find crap to fling, and wash-rinse-and-repeat.
You are a troll, you are using multiple log-ins to make multiple BS posts, I caught you up the page doing it fool. lol
And given EVERYTHING you post is entirely hardline pro-separatists, its pretty clear what your gig is.
Hilarious.
First check my response above..but I'll say it again...no association with crazzie....check with tyler to confirm.
You will not answer the question, what is the average Eastern Ukrainian to do??
No more bullshit...if your not a troll with an agenda, then enlighten us with your "point of view" and answer the question.
Is want be Russia, is emigrate.
Is want be Ukraine, is Ukraine.
simples
btw, you've had your 15 mins, don't like the answers? You'll have to make do, or go fuck yourself from here.