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Socialism Comes To Seattle

Tyler Durden's picture


Submitted by Pater Tenebrarum via Acting-Man blog,

Seattle Bows to Demand of Socialist Councilwoman Kshama Sawant

Economic science has long shown that labor is not magically exempted from the laws of supply and demand. Therefore, minimum wage laws hurt rather than help workers, especially those with few skills or those just starting out, who are on the lowest rungs of the ladder. If one wants to raise youth unemployment and price unskilled workers out of the market, there is no surer way than introducing a minimum wage – especially one that is far higher than what the market can bear.

Note that a great deal of so-called 'pro labor' legislation that instituted wage minimums has only belatedly adjusted the legal minimum wage to levels the market economy was already able to provide, due to the increase in capital invested per worker.  If the extent of the legally mandated minimum wage does not exceed what the market can bear, it mainly serves to polish the image of politicians, while the harm is at least limited. This is however not to say that there is no harm done at all by the introduction of such wage price controls, even if the levels seem reasonable.

After all, the economy is subject to frequent booms and busts under the current monetary regime, and if wages are inflexible to the downside, unemployment will tend to soar during the bust phases. The huge unemployment rates during the Great Depression were a direct result of president Hoover 'persuading' companies not to drop wage rates, in spite of a sharp fall in prices and a genuine money supply deflation.

Seattle is one of the few municipalities in the US boasting of an openly socialist council member, Ksahma Sawant. As the author of this article at Forbes rightly notes, it is quite astonishing that this purveyor of bad economics (she not only supports minimum wage laws, but also rent controls and it seems she wants Amazon to be nationalized as well) is actually teaching an economics course at the Seattle Central Community College.

As a politician, one of her central demands was the introduction of a $15/hr. Minimum wage in Seattle. The city council has now bowed to this demand, a decision that is likely to prove extremely destructive, especially to small businesses (interestingly, businesses have been allowed to 'phase the wage in over a three to seven year period', a fact that immediately belies the assertion that this legislation won't hurt business. If it is so harmless, why can it not be adopted right away?). NBC reports:

“The Seattle City Council on Monday unanimously approved a $15 hourly minimum wage — the highest in the nation.


The ordinance, which phases in the increase over time, passed a committee last week with a few changes. It would take effect next April and allow a sub-minimum wage for teens.


The ordinance was drafted by an advisory group of labor, business and nonprofit representatives convened by Seattle Mayor Ed Murray. It would phase in wage increases over three to seven years, depending on the size of the business and employee benefits.


The City Council voted 9-0 in front of a sometimes raucous audience that frequently interjected cheers, applause and shouts of "Shame on you!" as the council debated several changes to the measure. Seattle's higher minimum wage would surpass San Francisco's minimum of $10.74 an hour.




Some small business owners worry that a higher minimum wage could put them out of business.

Meanwhile, a group called 15 Now led by Socialist Seattle City Council member Kshama Sawant is collecting signatures for a ballot measure that would create an immediate wage hike for large businesses and a three-year phase-in for small business.


"Our victory is not complete, but we have fought until the last day, the last hour, against all the loopholes demanded by business," Sawant said before the council vote. "$15 in Seattle is just the beginning."

(emphasis added)

Ms. Sawant has actually studied economics, which makes this all the more astounding. Anyway, she and her followers are certain to be taught a real life lesson in economics now. Unfortunately, many small business owners and their employees will lose their livelihood as a result. Ms. Savant herself has of course nothing to fear in this regard,  as her income is paid by taxpayers.



Kshama Sawant, raising her fist in the well-known socialist greeting

(Photo by Elaine Thompson, AP)


The Downward Spiral is Already Underway

Seattle seems eager to become the next Detroit. As 'United Liberty' reports, the negative effects of the minimum wage law can be ascertained already, as the $15 minimum wage has been introduced in advance in the Seatac suburb of Seattle. Predictably, the groups that suffer the most from the negative consequences of the new legislation are workers themselves and small business owners.

United writes:

“The Emerald City may witness the economic dangers of hiking the minimum wage to $15/hour sooner rather than later. SeaTac, a suburb of Seattle, hiked the minimum wage for certain service industry employees to $15 at the beginning of the year, and there are already signs that the sudden increase is having a negative impact.


Earlier this month, Seattle voted to raise its minimum wage gradually to $15 by the year 2020. Unlike the SeaTac wage hike, Seattle’s hike will apply to all businesses.


But 15 minutes south near the Seattle-Tacoma International Airport, employees are already seeing the negative effects of such a hike. A February report from the Seattle Times revealed:


“At the Clarion Hotel off International Boulevard, a sit-down restaurant has been shuttered, though it might soon be replaced by a less-labor-intensive cafe… Other businesses have adjusted in ways that run the gamut from putting more work in the hands of managers, to instituting a small “living-wage surcharge” for a daily parking space near the airport.”




“Are you happy with the $15 wage?” I asked the full-time cleaning lady.


“It sounds good, but it’s not good,” the woman said.


“Why?” I asked.


“I lost my 401k, health insurance, paid holiday, and vacation,” she responded. “No more free food,” she added.


The hotel used to feed her. Now, she has to bring her own food. Also, no overtime, she said. She used to work extra hours and received overtime pay.


What else? I asked.


“I have to pay for parking,” she said. I then asked the part-time waitress, who was part of the catering staff.


“Yes, I’ve got $15 an hour, but all my tips are now much less,” she said. Before the new wage law was implemented, her hourly wage was $7. But her tips added to more than $15 an hour. Yes, she used to receive free food and parking. Now, she has to bring her own food and pay for parking.




The Washington Policy Center, a free market think tank, said the passed-but-not-yet-implemented wage hike is already affecting small businesses in Seattle:


“After decades in Seattle, Northwest Caster and Equipment recently made the difficult decision to move the business to unincorporated Lynnwood, according to a report by KOMO news.  The owner of the family business blames Seattle’s increasingly difficult business climate for the move:  “It just seems like increasingly the city’s become a more difficult place to do business.”


The city’s proposed $15 minimum wage was tops on the list of complaints.  “If I’m going to bring someone in on an entry level, I’d prefer to start them out where I’d like to start them out, rather than having that dictated to me.”


A commercial property landlord echoes those concerns about the $15 minimum wage, noting several tenants have signaled they may not renew their leases if it becomes law: “It’s just too expensive to operate in the city.”


And in a story today, KUOW reports that small businesses throughout the city are panicking over the super high minimum wage.  Multiple small business owners told KUOW they are holding off on opening new business or expanding their current business in Seattle, while others said they are delaying plans to hire new workers.”

(emphasis added)

The problem with minimum wage laws is not only that they are economic nonsense bound to lower growth and destroy job opportunities for young and unskilled workers. A major problem is that they represent an infringement of liberty. As Dr. Machan writes on this point:

“[...] being entitled to a minimum wage is actually unjustified, even if the law affirms it, because it violates the rights of individuals to trade freely—one of the implications of their right to liberty. If people freely enter into an employment relationship that specifies certain work provided for a certain wage, this isn’t something the law may void, since it is their right to do so; the minimum wage law violates this right.”

Most people look at minimum wage laws only from the perspective that they force employers to pay a certain wage to the least productive employees. They forget that they also force workers not to offer their labor services below the prevailing minimum wage rate. And yet, such workers undoubtedly exist, especially in light of the fact that they may otherwise simply not find any employment at all.


Seattle's city council has made a grave mistake by bowing to the demands of the socialist faction. Many small businesses will be forced to close or move somewhere else. Since small businesses create the vast bulk of new jobs, the Seattle city council may eventually not only find itself with a shrinking tax base, but also a growing unemployment rate. This can be expected to be accompanied by rising crime rates and growing strains on social services.

Politicians cannot repeal the laws of economics. They might as well try to repeal gravity or order the sun not to shine. And yet, basic economic lessons seemingly need to be retaught over and over again. Unfortunately, this usually happens at a great cost, as these interventions inevitably cause misery for countless people.



Socialism – ideas so good, they have to be mandatory.

(Cartoon by: Mike Lecter)


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Sun, 06/08/2014 - 19:30 | 4835280 So Close
So Close's picture

Who is John Galt?

Sun, 06/08/2014 - 19:43 | 4835307 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

A fictional douchebag.  The minimum wage is a populist idea pushed stealthily by big business because it destroys small business.  Of course Galt -- were he a real person -- would simply wage arbitrage to China like all of the other asshole oligarchs.

Sun, 06/08/2014 - 19:45 | 4835314 So Close
So Close's picture

I don't think you read the same book I did.  Nor did you understand the premise.  

Sun, 06/08/2014 - 19:48 | 4835323 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

I understand the premise quite well.  So you're saying he would not wage arbitrage to China?

Sun, 06/08/2014 - 19:55 | 4835333 So Close
So Close's picture

I am saying it would not matter if he did.  Or that it is happening here/there.  Being mad because the genie of globalization is out of the bottle is pointless.  It aint going back in.  Deal with it.

Sun, 06/08/2014 - 20:11 | 4835380 DaddyO
DaddyO's picture

This is where we're all headed anyway.

Enjoy this from our Dear Leader...


Sun, 06/08/2014 - 20:35 | 4835438 Jam Akin
Jam Akin's picture

Sham Savant - descriptive name the Councilwoman has...

Sun, 06/08/2014 - 20:42 | 4835465 toxic8
toxic8's picture

Lmao! Josh Earnest and Sham Savant... match made in banker heaven

Sun, 06/08/2014 - 20:44 | 4835469 Temporalist
Temporalist's picture

They are both related to Steve LIESman.  Funny how that works.

Sun, 06/08/2014 - 22:00 | 4835738 Vampyroteuthis ...
Vampyroteuthis infernalis's picture

In a sick perverted way I was kind of hoping this would pass. When Seattle implodes economically I can laugh in the faces of libtards and show them how their economics suck!

This commie councilwoman is one ugly cow. Hilary has a competitor for the most repulsive female politician in the US these days.

Sun, 06/08/2014 - 23:51 | 4836044 jeff montanye
jeff montanye's picture

as we look about the world it seems harder to find economics that don't suck.

Mon, 06/09/2014 - 00:58 | 4836191 James_Cole
James_Cole's picture

Seattle's city council has made a grave mistake by bowing to the demands of the socialist faction.

Just stay out of Seattle, no one wants you there anyway. Stick to texas where you and your cool friends can bring your beloved sex toys aka semi-auto rifles to mcdonalds. Everyone wins. 

Mon, 06/09/2014 - 08:44 | 4836591 Agstacker
Agstacker's picture

You know, in the movie James Cole gets shot in the end.  Don't mess with Texas.

Mon, 06/09/2014 - 08:50 | 4836598 Save_America1st
Save_America1st's picture

Seattle goes full-retard and my guess is that the socialist scumbags who run the Portland metro area will do the same thing.  Bunch of mental midgets in Portland.  Socialists spread like a cancerous disease and destroy the host until it's nothing but a rotted out shell.  Just look at Detroit.

Mon, 06/09/2014 - 00:46 | 4836171 Lost My Shorts
Lost My Shorts's picture

Actually, Seattle is a special case, and the high minimum wage might be sensible there in a way that it wouldn't be other places.  Key feature: Seattle is currenty perceived as a highly desirable place to live (culture, style, schools, etc.) and real estate prices and rents are over the moon.  It's getting to where no one but brogrammers and the idle rich can afford the city.  So don't be surprised if the locals want to shake things up and try out a new equilibrium.  Several considerations:

1) If the high minimum wage eliminates 10,000 service jobs and drives that many people out of the city and lowers rents, not too many who remain would think it was a bad thing.  Would you rather that:  beer costs $7 and you can afford a house; or beer costs $6 and you can't afford a house? 

2) There will undoubtedly be attrition among small business, which means weakness in commercial rents, which means that a little bit of the higher service wages can be funded from lower commercial rents.  High minimum wage has the effect of transferring some cash from the pockets of real estate (Blackstone et al.) to workers who actually live and spend in the city.  Seattle suffers perhaps more from being a high-rent desert than from high minimum wages.

3) In the gentrified north-central sections of the city, service wages already tend to be close to $15 or even above and the adjustment will be modest.  Retail and food service will be hollowed out in the poorer sections (ironically) but who cares.

The biggest unknowns are:  when 10,000 service jobs disappear, will those people leave the city, or stay around and go on welfare?  Will the high wage raise the taxpayer cost of child care, elder care, and home health care, or will it drive those people out of the city to nearby towns?  Depending on how it's managed, the high minimum wage could be a stealth program of gentrification rather than Detroitification. You just need to look at a place like Monaco to realize that sometimes an enclave of high prices and high wages is sustainable.

p.s. the case of Seatac is quite different.  There it's all about the airport -- driving up wages at a logistical choke point in the economy.  It's possible to pry more cash out of the pockets of air travelers, and they have no choice.  Looking at service workers outside the airport is missing the point.

Mon, 06/09/2014 - 01:59 | 4836238 Lore
Lore's picture

You sound like some sort of dogma-downloaded institutional-diploma-carrying back-room government apologist.  Have you actually gotten out of your chair and shopped around SeaTac lately?  The situation is terrible. Long-time mom'n'pop small retailers, salt-of-the-earth American capitalists, are hanging on by a thread, on the verge of being wiped out.  Never mind this intra-city regional bullshit:  the big picture is that the American consumer in general is drowning in debt, and if you jack wages, the operator passes the added expense to his customers by jacking prices, and sales drop accordingly.  THERE IS NO MORE DISCRETIONARY SPENDING. THERE IS ONLY MORE AND MORE DEBT. MINIMUM WAGE IS A TAX, AND THE BASIC RULE OF ECONOMICS IS THAT YOU NEVER RAISE TAXES IN A DOWNTURN. The only winner is government-food-stamp-subsidized Wal-Mart.  Seattle is just another city taking baby collectivist steps toward the global plantation. It's a good thing that they keep throwing up those stack'em-and-pack'em apartments on the waterfront. In time, they'll become the new Welfare Towers. At least the view is nicer than your traditional British redbrick.

Mon, 06/09/2014 - 02:09 | 4836247 James_Cole
James_Cole's picture

Have you actually gotten out of your chair and shopped around SeaTac lately?  The situation is terrible. Long-time mom'n'pop small retailers, salt-of-the-earth American capitalists, are hanging on by a thread, on the verge of being wiped out.  

Seven weeks in and mom n' pops is hangin' by threads!! I seen starving babies everywhere, crawling on de floor, desperate to find food donations from gracious patriots who courageously rejected prop 1, but none is to be found, dey all washed out!!!!!

Took only seven weeks to destroy the formerly beautiful capitalist utopia known as the (government built and run) seatac airport!!!

Why hast thou forsaken us Obama!!

Mon, 06/09/2014 - 05:23 | 4836361 Lore
Lore's picture

James - Your post seems largely nonsensical. Can you rephrase?

I refer to the region, not the airport. Local retail is depressed.

For those who are interested, Prop 1 is about cuts to regional transit:

With Prop. 1 defeated, King County to eliminate 72 bus routes (, 23-Apr)

Mon, 06/09/2014 - 12:37 | 4837372 James_Cole
James_Cole's picture

Region huh? Interesting that you referred specifically to seatac and the minimum wage hike specifically there (proposition 1).

This would be the same proposition 1 cited when seattle moved ahead on $15.

Mon, 06/09/2014 - 14:27 | 4837825 Lore
Lore's picture

Ah. Wrong Prop 1. That's a nice bit of pseudo-analysis from MyNW.  Notice the absence of basic profitability and solvency as determinants of wage growth and job creation (so passé). 

Mon, 06/09/2014 - 07:02 | 4836442 drendebe10
drendebe10's picture

Yea, Deathroit coming... no loss

Mon, 06/09/2014 - 13:31 | 4837558 drendebe10
drendebe10's picture

The totally moronic liberal democraps with their socialist fanatacism never seem to get how money doesn't come out of thin air and they can pass out it willy nilly without consequences.... regretfully, the consequences do not reach these liberal democraps in their own pocket book.... how stupid do you have to be to not realize that if you raise the minimum wage, businesses will respond to ways to compensate for that which ends up hurting the recipients of the new minimum wage, i.e., lost benefits, higher income taxes..... and then businesses jack up their prices which in turn hurts the consumer who has to pay more  and given obamanomics with hidden inflation, higher taxes, obamacare costs, they will have less discretionary funds to pay for the things that help the economy, given the economy is allegedly 70% driven by consumer spending.... liberal democraps may have good intentions (which gives them the benefit of the doubt) but they behave like they are dumber than a bunch of old cat turds when it comes to money and the economy.... 

BTW, a recommended reading is Charles Ramsey's Dead Giveaway and his comments about the democrap party... he says he is the democrap party's worst nightmare, ..... a thinking black man.... 

Sun, 06/08/2014 - 20:54 | 4835475 HardAssets
HardAssets's picture

She seems to be another obvious twit - - - flashing the socialist/communist salute like it was back in the 60s.

Are these people even aware of youth unemployment levels today ?

She says $15 is 'just the beginning'. Hell, just make it $100 per hour and be done with it.

'Power to the people' ?     Yeah . . . . right.

Sun, 06/08/2014 - 21:04 | 4835544 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Yeah, she's married to a Microsoft engineer pulling down 150k+...her salary as a councilwoman is 120k, so quarter million a year.

Same old-same old, socialists love playing with other peoples money with no regard to the lady (in the article) who now has to pay for her parking, bring a bag lunch and makes less in tips.

Power to the peo...errr, ummm...state! ;-)

Sun, 06/08/2014 - 23:50 | 4836041 Siniverisyys
Siniverisyys's picture

Retarded. Employers who pay minimum wage are subsidized by tax payers. Since minimum wage is not enough to live on, low-wage earners rely on a plethora of government services to keep them able to eat and off of the street. The effective minimum wage is already much higher than you believe, perhaps higher than $15/hr when you consider the overhead of managing all of these government services that the working poor are forced to utilize in order to survive. The cost of employment has been transferred to YOU, the tax payer.

Mon, 06/09/2014 - 00:00 | 4836067 jeff montanye
jeff montanye's picture

the deficits of the household and government sectors provide the profits of the "private" or "productive" sector.

as john hussman has noted: the current surplus of corporate profits is the mirror-image of corresponding deficits in household and government savings. Recent profits data, as well as the entire historical record, are tightly explained by these factors. after-tax corporate profits as a share of national income are currently about 70% above historical norms; these profit shares are heavily mean-reverting and strongly (inversely) associated with subsequent profit growth over the following 3-4 year period.

Mon, 06/09/2014 - 00:14 | 4836098 nmewn
nmewn's picture


Minimum wage is an entry level LOW SKILL wage. What entity caused the fiat price of all goods & services to go up? How do you define inflation and where does it come from?

Mon, 06/09/2014 - 01:40 | 4836226 silverserfer
silverserfer's picture

Just look at it as TARP for the masses NMEWMWNM. You do realize the game is rigged right? You do know we are in the death thros of a fiat system right? Its not your pocket thats getting picked right? The monetary system is broken.  The slaves are not keeping up with inflation so quite being a SLAVEMASTER. Heah Heah. Your avatar is not fitting of your good old boy roots.

Warning: there are some hard pills to swollow ahead for everyone ahead with the predicted and forecast wage inflation ahead. It has been mentioned repeatedly here on ZH that wages have been stagnant for workers throughout ALL the past QE's. It is goingg to be unnerving for many as they still live in a fantasy land as if the money spply was still at pre -2008 levels. Its fucking not!

If someone is making less than $20 they are are a SLAVE. PERIOD. 

Mon, 06/09/2014 - 07:06 | 4836446 nmewn
nmewn's picture

The only ones living on a plantation around here are those who allow themselves to be shackled to the slavemasters post.

Help me massa! I's stahved. Help me massa, I's po! Fucking please. Government created their situation and they (and you apparently) instinctively turn to it like dogs returning to their vomit. Trained to the task at hand pretty well I'd say.

Does this explain my avatar to you?

Tue, 06/10/2014 - 18:38 | 4837040 Siniverisyys
Siniverisyys's picture

I do believe that the future is entrepreneurship and passive re-distribution of wealth through popular competition.

On my trip to Mexico, I noticed that many Mexicans were self-employed. I had the impression that if the Mexicans waited for low-wage positions from mega-corporations like McDonald's, the situation would be much more grim. It's really interesting that large chain stores seem to struggle in the Mexican market because they can't compete with the low-overhead Ma & Pa shoppes. It was really inspiring to see the strong entrepreneurship in Mexico.

But, you still can't ignore that the rise of quality-of-life in North America directly correlates to to the rise of unionism. The quality-of-life in the States is lock-stepped with the prevalence of unionism. Google it.

Now, more than ever, labour supply will always exceed demand. 

So what happens with all of these unemployed people? Let them starve to death? And the remainder? Should they work for "almost free?" Enjoy your race to the bottom.


Mon, 06/09/2014 - 10:37 | 4836960 Siniverisyys
Siniverisyys's picture

So you're suggesting the cause of inflation is minimum-wage & low-wage earners? "Retarded" still stands.

Furthermore, I can make the argument that almost all positions are now "low skill" with the commoditization of technology skills and on-demand access to information on just about everything. I haven't called a lawyer in quite some time.

Mon, 06/09/2014 - 02:22 | 4836265 GernB
GernB's picture

Please explain to me how I was subsidized by taxpayers when I was a teenager making minimum wage and living at home. And to me that was a lot of money. So you are willing to screw people like I was because you want to dictate to me what I'm willing to work for. That's real compassion for ya.

Mon, 06/09/2014 - 03:26 | 4836308 monkeyshine
monkeyshine's picture

Makes me wonder whether jacking the rate to $15 will push some families off some of the dole - though I'm sure this has been debated and calculated.  Reminds me of the way the ACA has made a number of people worse off.  

Mon, 06/09/2014 - 03:52 | 4836323 mumcard
mumcard's picture

Why not make it $100 an hour then and close down all the government programs.

Mon, 06/09/2014 - 15:47 | 4838211 HoleInTheDonut
HoleInTheDonut's picture

Why the phase-in over 5 years?  Why exempt teenagers?  Why do these full-retard socialists hold back?  Seems they don't really believe what they say, its just "a victory", then the low wage workers have to wait 5 years to get their "living wage"?    

Mon, 06/09/2014 - 03:19 | 4836293 The_Dude
The_Dude's picture

Demographics are destiny....let`s just keep importing intellectuals like this ( fucking economists that can`t figure out how a basic labor demand curve works) and see what happens.

 How low does our collective IQ need to drop before we start worshipping cows and shitting in the streets?

Mon, 06/09/2014 - 09:02 | 4836634 plane jain
plane jain's picture

Guess you missed that sub-minimum wage for teens thing?  Terrible, but one of the nice things about this depression has been overall better service IME with adults working as cashiers and such.  When I read that they would have a lower rate for teens I figure it was back to the 80s when employers hired lots of part time teens and pressured them to work late hours on a school night because then only teens would take those crap jobs.

Sun, 06/08/2014 - 20:50 | 4835487 Kahn E. Lingus
Kahn E. Lingus's picture

This link is total bullshit. It took a snippit out of context. Listen to the full damn speech and you will see that he is making the exact opposite point.

DaddyO, you are jackal-faced carrion eater for submitting this. There is enough confusion and dis-information without your promulgating this BS.


Mon, 06/09/2014 - 07:43 | 4836465 DaddyO
DaddyO's picture

Certainly, it was taken out of context.

But do you deny it is the full throated world view of dear leader and his minions?

Why would he use such a message on the world stage?

Always watch what dear leader does, this message is the embodiment of the full thought of the current regime and socialist movement.


Sun, 06/08/2014 - 20:50 | 4835489 stev3e
stev3e's picture

This link provides an example of why people blow off non-conventional ideas and label you as a tin-foil hat numbskull.

The link is a short segment of Obama's speech in Europe taken out of context.  The part of the speech you hear was said in making a contrast to the ideal of democratic power, not the promotion of authoritarian power.

Sun, 06/08/2014 - 21:32 | 4835648 Anusocracy
Anusocracy's picture

au·thor·i·tar·i·an (-thôr-târ-n, -thr-, ô-thôr-, ô-thr-)
1. Characterized by or favoring absolute obedience to authority, as against individual freedom: an authoritarian regime.
2. Of, relating to, or expecting unquestioning obedience.

Dumbocracy IS authoritarian. What world do you live in?

Sun, 06/08/2014 - 23:00 | 4835932 August
August's picture

The statements quoted were sufficiently outrageous, that a savvy reader (i.e. me) could tell they had to be taken out of context.

Obama might be ignoraant enough to think along those lines, but he's certainly not so stupid as to say so publicly.

Sun, 06/08/2014 - 23:01 | 4835938 balanced
balanced's picture

Regardless of your intent, your comment is a well written piece of propaganda. You hit all of the standard propaganda points:

1. Attempt to discredit by claiming that it was inaccurate or taken out of context.

2. Try to frame the message as ridiculous (not to be taken seriously).

3. Imply that others agree with your assertions.


Sun, 06/08/2014 - 20:54 | 4835490 stev3e
stev3e's picture

double post - please delete

Sun, 06/08/2014 - 20:21 | 4835405 mjcOH1
mjcOH1's picture

I've been going to the same Mexican restaurant about once a week for 3 years.   They added a $1 ACA surcharge to my usual bill.   I deducted $1 from the tip, and  put it all on a credit card, rather than use cash. 

Everybody's happy now, right?   Because I know I'll pay whatever total is put on the check, rather than throw my own shrimp on the grill.

Sun, 06/08/2014 - 20:38 | 4835446 Malachi Constant
Malachi Constant's picture

Rather than stand up to the management for their dignity, they will spit in your food to strip you of yours. On the bright side, their smile will be genuine. Don't go there again.

Sun, 06/08/2014 - 20:45 | 4835467 mjcOH1
mjcOH1's picture

You've convinced me.   And I happen to already have a bag of Kingsford Edge from last year.

Another victory for the workers of the world agains their oppressors.


Sun, 06/08/2014 - 20:49 | 4835485 NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

When they are all unemployed will they still call themselves workers?

Sun, 06/08/2014 - 20:59 | 4835520 FeralSerf
FeralSerf's picture

No, they'll call themselves permanently disabled and, with the help of an attorney, get Social Security disability payments for the rest of their lives. Medical and dental insurance suddenly becomes very affordable too.

With a bit of under the table side work, they should be able to do better than they did when they worked. Welcome to the Third World.

Sun, 06/08/2014 - 23:05 | 4835946 August
August's picture

>>>Medical and dental insurance suddenly becomes very affordable too.

After two years on disability, medical insurance (i.e. Medicare) becomes free for life.

Is the USA a great and generous nation, or not?

Mon, 06/09/2014 - 13:55 | 4837664 FeralSerf
FeralSerf's picture

Yes, free for life is very affordable. America is a VERY generous nation to certain groups of people, especially the ones on the top and the ones on the bottom that know how to game the system. The diminishing ones in the middle, not so much.

Those in the middle should be consoled by the largess for those on the bottom, because that's where the middle is increasingly headed.

Mon, 06/09/2014 - 00:08 | 4836079 TheReplacement
TheReplacement's picture

Bear in mind that will hurt the owners as well.  If that is good or bad is up to you.  Just be aware of it.

Mon, 06/09/2014 - 09:07 | 4836649 plane jain
plane jain's picture

This is funny because the owners are probably on your side.  Hence the seperate surcharge vs. just raising prices across the board.  Felt like they needed to make a token protest of the wage increase, now your pissed and saying you won't eat there anymore.  So you eat at home or eat at the places where the owners just raise the prices.

Mon, 06/09/2014 - 10:12 | 4836886 Dealyer Turdin
Dealyer Turdin's picture

All the shrimp get to eat is poop.  So the spit is more of a sauce than anything.  Type shrimp and say, pig feces, into your NSA search window of choice. 

La Pura Vida!

Sun, 06/08/2014 - 20:22 | 4835407 tarsubil
tarsubil's picture

It's not so much globalization as it is devolution.

Sun, 06/08/2014 - 20:37 | 4835434 So Close
So Close's picture

Devolution for who?  I promise you it does not look that way looking from East to West.

Sun, 06/08/2014 - 20:41 | 4835455 Death and Gravity
Death and Gravity's picture

Of course it won't matter if you base your worldview on a piece of political fiction.



Sun, 06/08/2014 - 20:48 | 4835480 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

You can't make this shit up.  A shit ton of people literally live their lives based on a fiction novel written by a flagrant narcissist whose star student and co-writer -- Alan Greenspan -- unequivocally proved that the philosophy is not only wrong, but destructively so.

Sun, 06/08/2014 - 20:53 | 4835493 NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

Says the absolutist that still tells us that government is the only solution.


You should really stop looking at the world from such a one dimensional point of view. 

Sun, 06/08/2014 - 21:01 | 4835514 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

I have a one-dimensional point of view?  Have you looked at yourself in the mirror recently?   You have a philosophy based on a fiction book for fuck's sake.  Have you looked at all at the result of Rand's writings on modern society?  Do a google search and find how many people like Alan Greenspan are devotees, and ask yourself whether I'm misreading her works or you are.

Sun, 06/08/2014 - 21:02 | 4835533 tmosley
tmosley's picture

I guess you forgot that Alan Greenspan betrayed Rand's ideals when he joined the Federal Reserve.

Don't you remember what happened while they were torturing Galt, trying to get him to take economic control of their country?  He didn't give in to their unreasonable demands that he continue doing the things they were doing to destroy the economy while trying to fix the economy.  But Greenspan did.

Not that you would know, since you CLEARLY never read the book.

Sun, 06/08/2014 - 21:10 | 4835563 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

This argument reminds me of the religious person who blames the devil for the preacher's meth use and other "issues."  It's never that the underlying premise is wrong or that it was all a big lie.  It's always something else.

Sun, 06/08/2014 - 22:12 | 4835583 NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

You're the one laying blame here. 

Mon, 06/09/2014 - 06:00 | 4836403 what's that smell
what's that smell's picture

this article reads like ayn rand blowing peter schiff in a dirty subway station shitter.

when did the great thinkers and economic supermen become so obsessed with the minuscule pay of the subhuman useless eaters?


Sun, 06/08/2014 - 21:14 | 4835584 tmosley
tmosley's picture

Where in the bible does it call on believers to take Meth?

More on topic, where in the bible does it call for followers to worship Satan and become his high priests?  Because that is quite literally the equivalent of what Greenspan did.

But you don't know anything about that BECAUSE YOU NEVER READ THE BOOK.

Mon, 06/09/2014 - 00:28 | 4836139 Ignatius
Ignatius's picture

"Where in the bible does it call on believers to take Meth?"

The Ted Haggard version and edition.

Sun, 06/08/2014 - 21:17 | 4835591 Anusocracy
Anusocracy's picture

"I have a one-dimensional point of view?"

Sure as fuck.

You want to force your love of government on everyone, no exceptions.

Sun, 06/08/2014 - 21:02 | 4835536 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

Everyone admires this Galt charater, but no one ever takes a shot at it. I found the closest thing to the actual John Galt, and even this guy cheats a bit. Either way, it looks like there is room for some more people there. Have at it.

Sun, 06/08/2014 - 21:15 | 4835585 NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

It would be really hard to go Galt in the modern era. There are a lot of people with plastic costumes and decorations that would visit you if you tried while the guber-pickers still have some power... 

Sun, 06/08/2014 - 21:19 | 4835603 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

Yeah I agree, not only is it really hard, but 99.9% would end up dead. But what fascinates me is how many threads are spent arguing the hypothetical. It's almost maddening to watch. I know I know...There is an alternative, I could fuck off. No need to tell me, I will do it on my own. Have a good night fellas.

Sun, 06/08/2014 - 21:29 | 4835636 NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

There is one point the NWO gang made that I can agree with. 99% of the current world's population should not have been born. 99% of the people will never contribute to humanity in any way shape or form that is not a negative on those that support them.


I do not agree with their conclusion and their "solution" in the least, but their premise is sound simply by looking at the energy requirements in the future to sustain the growth at this rate. There is a civil way to solve this problem, and it's called letting the free-markets have their way again.

Sun, 06/08/2014 - 21:37 | 4835660 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

Jesus Christ 99%? 

That is slightly higher than my numbers, and I thought I was aiming high.

Sun, 06/08/2014 - 21:52 | 4835718 NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

Malinvestments are complex things, and the longer they are held up and not allowed to clear the longer they will manifest in complexity. This current era of malinvestments has been going on for over one hundred years now. 

Sun, 06/08/2014 - 22:15 | 4835789 FredFlintstone
FredFlintstone's picture

Yeah Fonz, my spreasheet is showing 35% to 65% or so.

Mon, 06/09/2014 - 00:12 | 4836089 NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

See how convuoluted Humanism is now? Some of you can't tell the difference between the two. You are just as bad as the Rand hater up there with not understanding the argument. The Oligarchs are on another level of understanding. They understand how to convince the majority to believe in a bunch of BS, history is loaded with examples of it. Sell them a confusing message and they will look for guidance. Some of you are looking for the same thing, but you should not be, you need to keep learning more about survival.  


I could troll you guys all day because you are not aware of the difference between my actual position and what I stated above. All of the love to all of you, but you guy's have some reading to do, you barely understand your enemy. 

Mon, 06/09/2014 - 01:28 | 4836201 Dr. Destructo
Dr. Destructo's picture

Oligarchs are products of a sick society much like how a sick plant will attract harmful insects. Parasitic oligarchs understand nothing about the people within the society they feed on except that the society they live in needs to be perpetuated by mythology such as "The American Dream" and the fostering of the so-called independent spirit, when in reality oligarchs generally achieved their wealth through families that cooperate with each other.

People participate in the system because they see no alternative to them. That has less to do with 'selling the message' and more to do with raising livestock. When alternative viewpoints such as 'socialism' or 'libertarianism' come along they will do whatever it takes to distort that message into something the people will naturally hate.

Oligarchs are on another level of understanding? Sure, but not in terms of advanced thinking that would benefit humankind. They're inept and useless without the illusion and force to back it their perceived omnipotence. They're "superior" because people were brought up to believe that.

The above is just a small part of what I know of the oligarchs, but the most important thing of all is that they truly terrorized by the general population; which is why they are some of the most devoted "preppers" out there and so much energy is being put into deception and "dumbing down" the people.

And people -wanna take down the oligarchs? Build networks and communities separate from the current system in play, you know, more "humanistic".

Mon, 06/09/2014 - 00:36 | 4836153 MeBizarro
MeBizarro's picture

You really are a sad misanthropic POS.  Not surprising though and in line with the other things you have supported on here including your stated support of genoicide and the Holocaust on here.  Disgusting individual and I'm thankful you have no position of authority or power.

Mon, 06/09/2014 - 01:50 | 4836235 silverserfer
silverserfer's picture

That is fucking idiotic. The NWO is parasitic and is not representaive AT FUCKING ALL of the people in the world who are meant to be there. They are in practice represenative of people who shoud not be here. You are delusional BIG FUCKING TIME.

People are here for reasons that dont concern you but the earth and god. If they stray it is their OWN problem. And newsflash, the rich stray a lot more than the poor do. 

Sun, 06/08/2014 - 23:08 | 4835953 August
August's picture

I believe zh's own HonestAnn is out there... between the Andes and the sea -  even as we speak.

Mon, 06/09/2014 - 03:38 | 4836315 monkeyshine
monkeyshine's picture

Werner Herzog is (close to) John Galt?  I loved Bad Lieutenant: Port of New Orleans. 

Mon, 06/09/2014 - 05:12 | 4836364 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

jfc not herzog, the people being filmed.

Mon, 06/09/2014 - 17:42 | 4838628 BigJim
BigJim's picture


Sun, 06/08/2014 - 21:18 | 4835581 NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

My philosophy is based on a book now? Do you even know what my position is on anything? 

Nope, you don't, because I have never told anyone, and I certainly don't walk around telling people what I think about everything. My personal philosophy would likely scare the shit out of you, and it's only my adherence to Rothbard's philosophy that keeps the world safe from people like me, because I know for a fact that I am not alone. As long as you stay peaceful, you are safe from those people. Peaceful means civil as well sir. Learn to be respectful please, because whether or not we agree on anything doesn't matter, we all want the same thing. Peaceful co-existence.


You really have to quit assuming you know whom it is that you are addressing here. 


Sun, 06/08/2014 - 21:43 | 4835681 Death and Gravity
Death and Gravity's picture

Says the guy with the ancap flag for an avatar, tossing vitriuol at those who isn't smooching Rand ass.



Sun, 06/08/2014 - 21:46 | 4835695 FredFlintstone
FredFlintstone's picture

I wondered what that flag was. I assumed it was military. My golf course has those at every hole. Hmmmm...

Sun, 06/08/2014 - 21:51 | 4835712 NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

You say that like I'm scared about people knowing I support Rothbard's philosophy, and honestly think it's a good idea to speak about it. 


Rothbard however is not Rand, so not sure what your problem there is. 

Sun, 06/08/2014 - 23:57 | 4836047 deflator
deflator's picture

 Graduates of, "The Von Mises Institute" do not end sentences with a

 I was at Rhodes college doing some work and needed to get to a building and asked directions. "We here at Rhodes college do not end sentences with a preposition". I replied, "Can you tell me where the fuck building 5 is at bitch?"

Mon, 06/09/2014 - 00:13 | 4836097 NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

LOL! Rothbard still did until the day he died. 

Mon, 06/09/2014 - 03:07 | 4836291 All Risk No Reward
All Risk No Reward's picture

Except that "Is" is a verb and not a preposition.

Prepositional phrases act as adverbs and adjectives to subjects and verbs.

Consider "The boat is sailing along the river".

"Along the river" is an adverb prepositional phrase (sailing where?) and "along" is the preposition that begins the preopositional phrase.

"is sailing" is the verb and "boat" is the subject of the verb.

Now consider "The boat from New York sailed along the river.."

I've added "from New York," which is an adjective prepositional phrase with "from" being the preposition.

Take the following example:  "The first part of the book was a difficult read."

"Was" is the verb.  Most folks will conclude that "book" is the subject and they would be wrong.  I recently made a similar mistake, hence this example is fresh in my mind.

"Of the book" is an adjective prepositional phrase ("of" being the preposition) and the subject can't be included in a prepositional phrase.

The actual subject is "part."

Three weeks ago I couldn't describe a preposition or prepositional phrase if you threw them at me and hit me in the head.

The oligarchs purposefuly confound the teaching of language in their effort to "dumb us down," keep us insecure, limit our communication abilities, limit our investigative nature, limit our comprehension of order and otherwise generally screw us up.

Two excellent resources to maximize the efficiency of learning language are, in order:

1. Uncovering the Logic of English.

The author has many presentations with excellent material on Youtube.

The Logic of English Presentation


This is, perhaps, the worst website I've ever seen, but it is the best abstract methodology (as opposed to incorporating grammar teaching while interacting with a child's actual environment) for teaching grammar that I've seen.

KISS Grammar Difference

Psycholinguistic Model

The real work begins with the Master Collection of KISS Grammar Instructional Material and Exercises

I'm no grammar guru, but I am systematically learning what the oligarchs spent billions of conjured dollars to conceal from me - a systematic way to efficiently learn words and how to combine those words into meaningful sentences where the nature of every word is properly understood.

I have along way to go, but I'm on the path.

Mon, 06/09/2014 - 17:45 | 4838635 BigJim
BigJim's picture

Thanks for the links

Sun, 06/08/2014 - 21:52 | 4835716 nmewn
nmewn's picture

One can hold differing opinions/beliefs and still subordinate those for the good of all. But I think a lot of that is coming to an end.

I know it is with me.

Sun, 06/08/2014 - 21:55 | 4835722 NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

"I shall always remain peaceful to my brothers and sisters even if they do not agree with me. All shall go in peace those that have come in peace. Those that come in war better bring reinforcements and a lot of body bags. "

Sun, 06/08/2014 - 22:03 | 4835747 nmewn
nmewn's picture


I'm long body bags.

Mon, 06/09/2014 - 07:56 | 4836479 DaddyO
DaddyO's picture

Not me, I will let them lay where they fell!

Message for the next group of MZB's who are unfortunate enough to come down my dirt road, uninvited.


Mon, 06/09/2014 - 01:53 | 4836237 silverserfer
silverserfer's picture


Sun, 06/08/2014 - 21:54 | 4835720 Pickleton
Pickleton's picture

You have a philosophy based on a fiction book for fuck's sake.


You are the king of the half-witicism aren't you.  Hey fucktard, Marx's book was fiction too but that hasn't slowed the democrat party and it's free shit army a bit.

Sun, 06/08/2014 - 23:59 | 4836062 401K of Dooom
401K of Dooom's picture

Hmmm as opposed to your philosophy of complete hypocrisy?  Do you send your children to an integrated school?  Have you ever dated someone not from your own race?  Did you ever have a job that paid at or below the minimum wage?  What is your opinion of Carl Rowan and when he was found out to have a revolver while living in the District of Columbia?  Did you matriculate from a state school or are you Ivy-League?  Did you support and or participate in any nuclear freeze marches back in the late 20th century?  Do you condemn white people who move out of the big cities yet have you ever lived in a large city?  Especially if you have children that you are raising?  Do you children go to public schools?  Care to answer C-O-M-R-A-D-E!?!

Mon, 06/09/2014 - 02:30 | 4836275 GernB
GernB's picture

Um, given the number of liberatarians who have spoken out against the very concept of a central bank you're claim is utter and hopeless nonsense.

Mon, 06/09/2014 - 17:50 | 4838653 BigJim
BigJim's picture

 You can't make this shit up.  A shit ton of people literally live their lives based on a fiction novel written by a flagrant narcissist whose star student and co-writer -- Alan Greenspan -- unequivocally proved that the philosophy is not only wrong, but destructively so.

How many fucking times does it have to be pointed out to you that Rand (who hated libertarians, by the way) was against central banking? Therefore when Greenspan became the head of the most importnat central bank in the world he was clearly no longer one of her followers.

For an intelligent person you certainly can be obtuse.

Sun, 06/08/2014 - 21:01 | 4835527 Omegaman2211
Omegaman2211's picture

I'm pretty sure John Galt would have Gone Galt by now so, no, he wouldn't be outsourcing to China because he wouldn't have employees to outsource in the first place.


I win.

Sun, 06/08/2014 - 19:53 | 4835337 JLee2027
JLee2027's picture

The larger companies would do so. It's small business that will simply close/not expand/lay people off, etc.

A very bad law.

Sun, 06/08/2014 - 20:12 | 4835382 tmosley
tmosley's picture

No, he would shut down and go to Galt's Gulch.  This is almost EXACTLY what happened in the book, and I think that if you had actually read it, you would know this.

I feel like you read a summary of the book written by a communist or something.

Sun, 06/08/2014 - 20:31 | 4835425 thamnosma
thamnosma's picture

That's probably close to the truth.

Sun, 06/08/2014 - 22:27 | 4835827 malek
malek's picture

Second that.

In an exchange with LTER here on ZH long ago, I wrote some rarely cited thoughts from Atlas Shrugged (without making them easily identifiable to be from the book) and he/she didn't even jump on it.
Pretty clearly never read the (whole) book.

Mon, 06/09/2014 - 17:57 | 4838669 BigJim
BigJim's picture

I'm beginning to think LTER has some serious issues. She's very reasonable on most subjects but becomes a demented harpy whenever Ayn Rand gets mentioned. It's genuinely odd how many times she's had her vitriol shown for the nonsense it is and yet, here she is again, conflating Greenspan's tenure of the Fed with Rand's anti-bureacratic philosophy. It's beyond weird.

Wassamatter LTER, did Ayn Rand seduce with your childhood sweetheart or something?

I'm no Rand fanboi (she was an ardent Zionist, after all) but LTER's foaming at the mouth whenever she gets mentioned is really quite extraordinary.

Sun, 06/08/2014 - 21:40 | 4835675 InjuredThales
InjuredThales's picture

Funny that LetThemEatRand hates Rand so vociferously when he has easy access on this site to a recent article about Detroit that only shows how prophetic Rand truly was.

Detroit should rightly be seen as the triumph of socialist coercion against the entrepreneurial free spirit that it truly is.

LetThemEatRand cannot create, so he demeans, attacks and deprecates.  That is always the response of the uncreative to the creative: "I can destroy whatever you build, and that makes me not your equal, but your superior."


Sun, 06/08/2014 - 19:50 | 4835330 sushi
sushi's picture

Had socialisim for the rich for a number of years now.

Cannot see any reason not to spread the love to the bottom 99% or whatever the numbers are.

These folks on the bottom will spend every nickel they earn. Unlike the 1% they will not be buying stawks.


Sun, 06/08/2014 - 20:25 | 4835358 The_Prisoner
The_Prisoner's picture

The 1% never feels any pain from introduction of socialist measures, it is not their love which will be taken away and spread ;-) 

It is always at the expesne of the middle class at first, and once inflation hits, the poor see any additional purchasing power acquired through mandated minimum wages dissolved, together with increased unemployment. 

Mandated minimum wage followed by price controls is what precipitated Brazil's inflation into hyperinflation in the late 80's.

Edit: agree with LTER above. Minimum wage policies are supported by the 1% for it destroys small and medium businesses, and more importantly, destroys social mobility.

No wonder this is happening in Seattle. I would not be surprised to find Amazon is supportive of such measures.


Sun, 06/08/2014 - 20:07 | 4835371 tmosley
tmosley's picture

If you actually read the book, there were two types of businessmen.  Galt was one of those who competed based on the quality of his work.  Those who pushed things like minimum wages to destroy competition were the other.  The former was lauded in the book, and the latter was written as the absolute scum of the earth.  Sometimes, these two types of people even worked at the same company.

Too bad that you have based your entire self around the hatred of Rand and all her works.  If she said the sky was blue you would be forced to disagree with her.  This is what makes you a fool.

Sun, 06/08/2014 - 20:20 | 4835402 So Close
So Close's picture

Correct sir.   Proverbs sums up the correct perspective on this conversation with this gentleman.  Do not rebuke mockers or they will hate you; rebuke the wise and they will love you.

Sun, 06/08/2014 - 20:40 | 4835451 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

It is amazing to me that so many people openly admit their adoration for Rand.   If you believe that she was against wage arbitrage, you have absolutely no idea what she stood for.  

Sun, 06/08/2014 - 20:52 | 4835496 tmosley
tmosley's picture

So kind of you, an ignoramus who didn't even read the entire Cliff's Notes version of Atlas Shrugged, to tell us the innermost thoughts of a dead woman.

Even if Galt hadn't gone to his Gulch, he never would have moved operations to China, because he would well know that they would STEAL HIS SECRETS.  If you had READ THE BOOK, you would know that this is analogous to what d'Anconia did to the Mexican government.  They promised him the moon with favorable mining contracts and cheap labor, then seized his mine.  Luckily, he knew that was going to happen, so he set the whole thing up as a way to try to teach them a lesson, such that the mine he was building had no value.

Your life is a lie.  Go register a new user name and come back and have a conversation where you can participate from a non-idiotic, non-absolutely counterfactual stance.

Sun, 06/08/2014 - 20:52 | 4835498 So Close
So Close's picture

You misunderstand....  I believe in me and my skills.   I don't care about wage arbitrage.   If too many people bring to market my skill set I will change.

Sun, 06/08/2014 - 20:54 | 4835505 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

Debating with you Rand-believers is very similar to trying to convince a very religious person of the non-existence of God.  They always speak in platitudes, and suggest that I just haven't read the Good Book closely enough.  Meanwhile, Alan Greenspan.

Sun, 06/08/2014 - 21:01 | 4835530 So Close
So Close's picture

Meanwhile you are bitching and I am 44 and well onto my third career move in a new industry making 250k a year.   Go were the work is and provide value others can not.   It is not religion.   It is common sense.

Sun, 06/08/2014 - 21:05 | 4835545 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

Seriously, your argument in support of your fiction-based philosophy is that you make $250K/year which doesn't even put you in the 1%?  I see you are quite proud of yourself despite your mediocre personal success, which is typical for Rand devotees.

Sun, 06/08/2014 - 21:12 | 4835569 nmewn
nmewn's picture

I thought 250k was "the new rich" was only two years ago Rand.

Sun, 06/08/2014 - 21:12 | 4835572 So Close
So Close's picture

Income aint assets brother.   I live very well on 55k a year with no debt.   I am in the top 1%  On both accouts.  Even so... It is not about comparing.  It is about doing your best.   Envy is the ONE cardinal sin you do not get  to have ANY fun with at all.  I sugest you pivot.

Sun, 06/08/2014 - 21:22 | 4835607 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

I am envious of your simplicity of thought, I suppose.   It is very child-like.  Much like the need to publicly post your income on ZH and attempt to convince me (you have no idea what my net worth is, and you assume because I disagree with you that I have/make less than you) that you are right and I are wrong.  Playground stuff.

Sun, 06/08/2014 - 21:28 | 4835630 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

It's weird to post your specific income and then say it's not about comparing.

Sun, 06/08/2014 - 21:40 | 4835669 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

He accidentally "betrayed" his pure philosophy for a moment.  Won't happen again.  

Sun, 06/08/2014 - 21:33 | 4835645 So Close
So Close's picture

Brother... I don't give a rats ass if you are convinced or not.   All I am saying is it does not matter how the cards are dealt.. I and those like me will find a way to come out on top.  And I/we have no special mandate other than our ability/willingess to see things as they are and try.   But since you brought it up... my guess is you have a liberal arts degree from a private college and spent 200++ k for it and are now pissed off that the best job you can get is as a social worker... which is ironic on two accounts... being you are nethier social or a worker.

Sun, 06/08/2014 - 21:39 | 4835667 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

You got me.  I'm a janitor with a lesbian studies degree, by which I mean I "surf the internet" a lot.

Sun, 06/08/2014 - 21:42 | 4835680 FredFlintstone
FredFlintstone's picture

I thought you were an attorney :)

Sun, 06/08/2014 - 22:18 | 4835799 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

Same difference.  Cleaning up other people's messes.  And I need the internet for Westlaw and stuff.

Sun, 06/08/2014 - 22:24 | 4835815 FredFlintstone
FredFlintstone's picture

plus keeping up with The Bob Loblaw Law Blog. My daughter is halfway through law school. Works at the State Supreme Court and goes to school evenings.

Sun, 06/08/2014 - 22:43 | 4835877 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

Tough road to hoe with so many new and recent graduates, but sounds like she's got a leg up if she's got a gig at the State Supreme Court.  I suggest she check out (no connection to me other than that I enjoy reading it).  Some really funny stuff.

Mon, 06/09/2014 - 02:01 | 4836245 silverserfer
silverserfer's picture

ther is one big crack going right down the middle of all the fanatic gault heritics. People find all inspiration from god. its all been done before. we are just tapping into it. To be gailt it to plagarise inspiration. Which at its roots is the foundation for becoming a faluire in life. We are given talent as a gift. By following our proper path we channel it. To say its our own is blapshemy. be inspired and be happy. 

Fuck Rand and her cult of selfish egotistacal followers. 

Mon, 06/09/2014 - 06:07 | 4836407 FredFlintstone
FredFlintstone's picture

Yeah, and she is smart. Has a scholarship that pays about 80% of her tuition and she is #1 in her class. Still I worry about her job prospects a little. I will have her check out that website.

Mon, 06/09/2014 - 15:40 | 4838166 IronForge
IronForge's picture

In what areas of Law do you specialize?

Do you take on Uncle Sam's DoD / Contractors / Civil Service Employees (Federal, State, Loca in SoCal)  for Whisleblower Retaliation / PrivacyAct - Civl Liberty Violations / Hostile Employment / Tortiuous Interference?

I've Proselytizing Cult Types (incluing Catholics, Xians, BlackJesus, Mormons, Moonies, Scientologists, Xian Scientists, Quakers, 7thDay, SokaGakkai, etc. - a mob Civil Disobedience Racket -  who've had their hand in this mess make they way with collaborators at a Naval Air Station, an Air Force Base, a California Employment Office (sponsoring Job Networking Groups) and at VA Hospitals. It's a Cult Stalker driven fleecing of talented ex-Military Officers(I'm roles involve Navy Logisgtics/Finance/Industrial/Contracts, US Treasury Agent, and Anti-Fraud Enforcer) guised as a Christian Intervention, ESP Research (I kid you not), Psych/Criminology Research, and a AirForce PsyOps Screw Up.    There's some Mock Trial involved in a venue to prevent real cases to go to Court.  Attorneys intimidated by local Gangs, Police making some arrests - yet occuluded with internal corruption by fraudulently making me a "Person of Interest" to some outstanding Cases and hosting a Neighborhood Watch empowered by cyberstalking hackers. 

Some have been disciplined and/or prosecuted; but there seems to be a Gag Order, or heavy pressure to Cover things up too much, while the JW/Mormons/Catholics seem to gossip about the Foul Play.  The Perpetrators were relying upon "Absolution" and/or Rationalization/Religous Court via Xian/Jewish and other Clergy, several Jesuits have been prosecuted; and some Librarians wanted their Friars to have all the Intellectual Property Data I was working on.  Most perpetrators were related or recruited from past (criminal) conduct Cases (and nutjob Cult types, from what I can see during a visit to the Base Pharmacy) from my days in the Navy as well.   

We've employees (who set up hire-to-fire employment/contract fraud) representing MIC Vassals ORACLE (spent $$ stalking/foul play), SDS Intl, KPMG, Andersen/Accenture clique, DirecTV, Anteon, SoCal Edison, AutobyTel, Integrated Data, Defense Security Service, USIS (Semi-private Investigative arm of the OPM-USGOV), Union Bank, Kaiser Permanente, Little Company of Mary, Torrance Memorial, L3 Communications (who hacked my home PC after an Interview w/their Think Tank Div in San Diego - I reported this to the Feds; but no action.  L3 has an office near Torrance Memorial), Apple (several employess are prosecuted) and Microstrategy.  The racketeers have crashed a few IBM Seminars as well.  UCLA Medical has encountered the Cult Mongers heckling me as I took my Mother for her appts.  Their Dental Staff already were scoffing at the "Cultists"

The racket is syndicated via several channels - Xian Groups, Apartheid Mongers, Masonic (had to look up the bizarre handshakes people were giving each other and to me), Criminal (thugs and convicts appear to be in the loop, including one ex-Con Pastor of the famous Calvary Chapel Network, for reasons unknown to me - must be his flock in foul play), Foreign (Australian, South African, Belgian/French, Polish, Armenian, South Korean (Moonies and others), Taiwanese (Rancho Palos Verdes/City of Industry), and others.

It's Scandalous; and people (groups and hopefully, local fiefdoms) are starting to get prosecuted.  I've reported this to the Feds enough times already; and it's time to get this Public, so no other Talented Individuals, Veterans, and Law Abiding People would be readily fleeced by a syndicated racket of Liars and Theives.  I need more details to press formal charges and sue the Bastards while they rot in Jail.  I've several people w/Pentagon Contacts, so once the Public is forewarned, we can expect a cascading effect of SHTF for the Perps.  Civil Liberty Groups should have a Field Day with this.  

BTW, a good deal of this involves the region covered by Rep. Maxine Waters.  Her spouse happens to have the same Surname as my Late Father's ex-Wife, who had a child out of wedlock while he was deployed with the Navy (for the Korean War, IIRC).  There are several Black Families in the perp list, so it would be interesting to see how far the perp network would stretch.

If Tyler is watching - the Perps do include Tesla/SpaceX supporters/investors (one church stalkers down the road mentioned  "T-Zero",  when I was voting at a Polling Station hosted by them, and at least one guy who appeared to be an employee I ended up speaking to at a Tech Job Fair in El Segundo.  It would appear that someone's trying to pump up the Subsidied Poster Child when most Manufacturers are leaving in droves.  ^_^ 

It's one helluva mess; but most degenerating Failed-States-to-be Candidates do carry elements of societal collapse around for awhile.

I'm looking to go overseas for future projects, where Mfg and IT are better protected; and some Cult Groups are simply banned from entry or easily marginalized.

If we're a match, or if you know of those willing to Sue the DoD, California (CBI, DoL, and a few Local Pols), and a few Contractors, Civil Servants, and a Few Cult Groups for the sake of Law Abiding Citizens for a few rounds - shake up and wake up a few from "NeoCon/RadicalLiberal/MSM Slumber of the Sheeple", I'd like to talk.


Sun, 06/08/2014 - 21:17 | 4835595 stev3e
stev3e's picture

Actually, yours is the argument of the idiot. He never stated his goal was to be paart of the 1% and $250,000/yr through diligence is not mediocre by any means.  You are typical of the smart-guy failure - mired in so much self-imposed bullshit.

Sun, 06/08/2014 - 21:29 | 4835633 deflator
deflator's picture

Meanwhile you are bitching and I am 44 and well onto my third career move in a new industry making 250k a year.   Go were the work is and provide value others can not.   It is not religion.   It is common sense.

 So...if everyone, all 7 billion of us, were to follow the magical instructions of, "common sense" could make 250k a year?

Scratches beard, "hmmm... sounds pretty good."

 Used car salesman grins.*

Sun, 06/08/2014 - 21:45 | 4835689 So Close
So Close's picture

Sorry to dissapoint.. it is real life.  Not everyone get a ribbon. 

Sun, 06/08/2014 - 21:07 | 4835552 tmosley
tmosley's picture

Whatever you say, LetThemEatAtheism.  Your posts here are far more fanatical than anyone elses.  To be honest, you sound like a crazy person, attributing far too much weight to the object of your obsission in shaping the ideologies of others.  Most people here have read Rand, and maybe she influenced some.  But I doubt there is even so much as a single "objectivist" here.

Don't think that I'm not noticing that you aren't replying to me.  Probably a wise move on your part, since you will always LOSE a debate with me because your choice of user name has backed you into an ideological corner, such that you literally can't agree with ANYTHING Rand has EVER said, which makes you a crazy person who runs around screaming things like "The sky isn't blue!!  Don't believe Rand's lies!"

Sun, 06/08/2014 - 21:14 | 4835574 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

Of course, I will always lose a debate with someone whose response to my criticism of their worldview based on a fiction book is that I must be "crazy."

Sun, 06/08/2014 - 21:17 | 4835598 tmosley
tmosley's picture

No, you SOUND crazy.

But you are certainly an idiot with bad reading comprehension OR your cognitive dissonance forces you into a state identical to being an idiot with bad reading comprehension.  You see a whole big argument against your point, single out one small part of it, misinterpret it, and argue against your new strawman.

You REALLY think that shit is going to fly HERE of all places?

Sun, 06/08/2014 - 21:25 | 4835620 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

I have the benefit of facts over fiction.  Fiction = Atlas Shurgged.  Facts = Alan Greenspan.   Now go back and read your good book or whatever floats your boat, true believer.

Sun, 06/08/2014 - 21:31 | 4835641 NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

You are so ignorant that it's embarssing to know I have attempted to respect your opinion in the past. 



Sun, 06/08/2014 - 21:33 | 4835649 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

Yes, I'm just stupid.  That's the only possible explanation for why I disagree with your fiction-book-based philosophy.

Sun, 06/08/2014 - 21:49 | 4835706 NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

First: Ignorant =/= stupid 

One is the word I used, the other is the one you used.



I ascribe to Rothbard's Philosophy, not Ayn Rand's. 



You really should learn how to be a bit more civil and how to actually differentiate between diffrent things, this is why you are one-dimensional. It's also likely why you think your absolutist position is the only way to do anything. 


Mon, 06/09/2014 - 08:24 | 4836545 James-Morrison
James-Morrison's picture

Let's get back on point.

Are you in favor of wage and price controls?

These side tracks into Fictional arguments are boring, especially on an economics blog.

Sun, 06/08/2014 - 21:59 | 4835736 tmosley
tmosley's picture

Do you even notice that you aren't actually making arguments?  Literally nothing but ad hominem.

If you can characterize Rand by Greenspan, then you can characterize America by Benedict Arnold, and Christianity by Judas.  What on EARTH makes you think that anything can be defined by those who betray its core features?  This is why you sound like a lunatic.  This right here.

Sun, 06/08/2014 - 22:07 | 4835762 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

Man, you are out there.  Characterizing Rand -- a writer about about industrialists who never held a job and who co-wrote with Greenspan, who did hold a job -- by Greenspan, is the same as characterizing America -- a country -- by a single individual?

Sun, 06/08/2014 - 22:16 | 4835793 NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

The primary issue is that you keep blaming a dead woman for the criminality of Wall Street. As if those people actually stop and think about what would Rand do when they are contemplating raiding your pension... 


The problem is tha tthe world is ran by simpletons that think just like you, and the real world doesn't run on thoughts or hopes or dreams like you seem to think it is. 

Sun, 06/08/2014 - 22:29 | 4835811 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

I actually don't blame Rand for the criminality of Wall Street.   She plays a relatively small role in the scheme.  Significant, but not huge.  Greenspan co-wrote with her because he found a fellow narcissist who believed in the superiority of those who make more money than the average guy.  Rand is a tool used by many sociopaths.  That so many Americans worship her is a statement about our society.  As for you, you are an angry ex-vet who feels betrayed and who has decided that he hates both liberals who never supported your cause, and conservatives who duped you into going to war for a cause that you now know was a lie.  What you should do is ask yourself why you are so gullible and stop blaming everyone but yourself for your own mistakes.  And maybe you should consider that some of us who knew that you were being lied to were right.  You are welcome for our efforts to try to talk you out of wasting your life and doing things that now haunt you.

Or maybe you're just a really angry guy that signed up to kill people, and you like the power that large magazine weapons give you.  You sure spend a lot of time online talking about all of your big guns.  

Sun, 06/08/2014 - 22:34 | 4835840 malek
malek's picture

 Rand is a tool used by many sociopaths.

Finally a statement from you I can agree with, as you're not saying if as a positive or negative tool - cough...

Mon, 06/09/2014 - 00:02 | 4836069 tmosley
tmosley's picture

"I'm losing the argument so I'm going to pretend I don't know what an analogy is."

Sun, 06/08/2014 - 21:14 | 4835577 stev3e
stev3e's picture

Is that something like trying to convince a non-believer in God of the existence of God?

Why do you want to live on the level of believing and convincing? 

Sun, 06/08/2014 - 21:32 | 4835644 NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

He's operating on emotions here, not reality. 

Sun, 06/08/2014 - 21:37 | 4835662 Death and Gravity
Death and Gravity's picture

Rand screamed at those who didn't parrot her dogmatic drivel, yet very willingly ate out of the hand of the govt welfare programme. Hypocrisy at its finest.

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