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The NSA Claims It Is "Too Big to Comply" With A Court Order

Tyler Durden's picture


Submitted by Mike Krieger of Liberty Blitzkrieg blog,

The fact that that the NSA is now claiming it is “Too Big to Comply” with a court order is an extremely important revelation since it further proves that the super rich and super powerful are in no way shape or form subject to the same laws as the rest of us. The mega banks are “Too Big to Fail,” multi-national corporations are “Too Big to Pay Taxes” and the government is just “Too Big to be Useful.” The rule of law no longer exists in America (remember Jon Corzine), which in turn means there is no longer a functioning society. This may not be obvious to most people at the moment, but it will become painfully clear to everyone in time unless these trends are reversed.

The specific incident I have chosen to highlight to demonstrate this point today relates to the NSA’s claim that it cannot comply with a court order because it’s essentially too complex and compliance will damage “national security.”

Of course, any mature civilization exposed to the unconstitutional activities of its intelligence agencies should find such a claim extraordinarily suspect. After all, the NSA can just shout “national security” and do absolutely anything it wants unless we collectively grow a pair and say no.

We find out from the ACLU that: 

In a remarkable legal filing on Friday afternoon, the NSA told a federal court that its spying operations are too massive and technically complex to comply with an order to preserve evidence. The NSA, in other words, now says that it cannot comply with the rules that apply to any other party before a court — the very rules that ensure legal accountability — because it is too big. 


The filing came in a long-running lawsuit filed by the Electronic Frontier Foundation challenging the NSA’s warrantless collection of Americans’ private data. Recently, the plaintiffs in that case have fought to ensure that the NSA is preserving relevant evidence — a standard obligation in any lawsuit — and not destroying the very data that would show the agency spied on the plaintiffs’ communications. Yet, as in so many other instances, the NSA appears to believe it is exempt from the normal rules.


For an agency whose motto is “Collect It All,” the NSA’s claim that its mission could be endangered by a court order to preserve evidence is a remarkable one. That is especially true given the immense amount of data the NSA is known to process and warehouse for its own future use. 


The crucial question is this: If the NSA does not have to keep evidence of its spying activities, how can a court ever test whether it is in fact complying with the Constitution?

Bingo. The whole system is broken. Completely and totally broken. 

As Brett Max Kaufman and I have written before, our system of oversight is broken — this is only the latest warning sign flashing red. The NSA has grown far beyond the ability of its overseers to properly police its spying activities. That includes the secret FISA Court, which has struggled to monitor the NSA’s compliance with basic limits on its surveillance activities. It includes the congressional oversight committees, which operate with too little information and too often appear captive to the interests of the intelligence community. And, now we are to believe, it includes the public courts as well. 


No intelligence agency should be too big to be accountable to the rule of law.

Too late for that one. The Washington Post adds some additional nuggets to the story:

In a hearing Friday, U.S. District  for the Northern District of California Judge Jeffrey S. White reversed an emergency order he had issued earlier the same week barring the government from destroying data that the Electronic Frontier Foundation had asked be preserved for that case. The data is collected under Section 702 of the Amendments Act to the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act. 


The complexity of the NSA systems meant preservation efforts might not work, he argued, but would have “an immediate, specific, and harmful impact on the national security of the United States.” Part of this complexity, Ledgett said, stems from privacy restrictions placed on the programs by the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court.


The government’s explanation raises more concerns, said Cindy Cohn, EFF’s legal director. “To me, it demonstrates that once the government has custody of this information even they can’t keep track of it anymore even for purposes of what they don’t want to destroy,” she said in an interview.


“With the huge amounts of data that they’re gathering it’s not surprising to me that it’s difficult to keep track– that’s why I think it’s so dangerous for them to be collecting all this data en masse,” Cohn added.


But it’s unclear just how much of the data EFF seeks has already been destroyed. In a brief filed with the court in May, EFF said there was “no doubt” that the government had already destroyed evidence related to the claims.

It is precisely because of the issues presented in this article that we must radically move away from overly centralized political, social and economic structures. The tools for decentralization are being developed as we speak, and I look forward to a much brighter and freer future.

The choice is ours.

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Wed, 06/11/2014 - 21:35 | 4847054 max2205
max2205's picture


Wed, 06/11/2014 - 21:51 | 4847103 Isotope
Isotope's picture

I think I'm going to use this precedent with the IRS. "I'm sorry, my records are so massive and unorganized, I can't find any of the receipts or documentation for the deductions and tax credits that offset my entire tax bill. So we're good, right?"

Wed, 06/11/2014 - 21:53 | 4847113 SHEEPFUKKER

If we all did it, it would work. If you did it...well, you know. 

Wed, 06/11/2014 - 22:59 | 4847299 wee-weed up
wee-weed up's picture



We had TBTF...

Now add TBTC!


Wed, 06/11/2014 - 23:14 | 4847343 linniepar
linniepar's picture

Just watched shadow recruit. The propaganda never stops. So who has infiltrated us? The Nazis,  Russians,  ir transnational banks? 

You're my hero Mike, love your work!

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 09:54 | 4848183 Fukushima Sam
Fukushima Sam's picture

Further proof of the Panopticon.

They are not gathering nearly as much data as they want us to believe.

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 10:42 | 4848373 Oracle 911
Oracle 911's picture

What about "To Big To Fund". :)

Wed, 06/11/2014 - 23:05 | 4847317 telefunken
telefunken's picture

f you are rich enough (or if you are APPle,Ge,etc.) it will work.

Flood the zone.

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 10:36 | 4848347 Grinder74
Grinder74's picture

Actually, if someone can be "too big" to comply, it stands to reason that someone can also be "too small" to comply.  Since there is no way I can match the massive budget and lawerly resources of a government agency, I am unable to comply.

Wed, 06/11/2014 - 21:53 | 4847111 y3maxx
y3maxx's picture

....freaking unbelievable...

Wed, 06/11/2014 - 23:35 | 4847380 ForWhomTheTollBuilds
ForWhomTheTollBuilds's picture

My memory has gotten pretty hazy but shortly before the last biggest US housing bubble of all time burst (2007 ish), the Congress held some special hearings to see if they should try to reign in Fannie and Freddie.  One of the executives told the congress not to bother passing any new rules because they wouldn't be following them anyway.   He basically said, they should save themselves the embarassment. I think his name was Raines.

Looking back on it, perhaps that would have been a good time for someone to have put their foot down?   

Ahh, look at me and my crazy theories. 

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 07:02 | 4847772 ChopperReid
ChopperReid's picture

"With all due respect.. get FUCKED !!"


Thu, 06/12/2014 - 07:03 | 4847773 ChopperReid
ChopperReid's picture

"With all due respect.. get FUCKED !!"


Wed, 06/11/2014 - 21:39 | 4847063 stant
stant's picture

They will be a unfunded greasy spot when this is over. Heroin money only last until there is no money. That thing in Utah will be like a old flakturen (flack tower) in Berlin.

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 08:03 | 4847841 Billy Sol Estes
Billy Sol Estes's picture

Urban explorers are already planning their routes

Wed, 06/11/2014 - 21:41 | 4847070 NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

How am I supposed to react to this? I don't even....

Wed, 06/11/2014 - 21:59 | 4847128 A Lunatic
A Lunatic's picture

You do what you like, but I'm going to have an aneurism.......

Wed, 06/11/2014 - 23:38 | 4847389 ForWhomTheTollBuilds
ForWhomTheTollBuilds's picture

As I noted in my anecdote above (about Raines) they are pushing their advantage like anyone who knows no one will stand up to them.  Humans are pack animals and all sorts of individuals (and nations for that matter) are telling the old dogs how things are going to be run from now on.

I've always said that to be a politician one must first be a coward.  Looks like these NSA spooks understand what I meant.

Wed, 06/11/2014 - 21:42 | 4847071 I am a Man I am...
I am a Man I am Forty's picture

gotta love circular arguments

Wed, 06/11/2014 - 21:42 | 4847073 krispkritter
krispkritter's picture

Read a 'study' recently that said that most women will be satisfied with a 6 1/2" pecker.  Top commenter said 'I could give them the 6.5 inches they prefer, but I'm not bending mine in half for anybody!' I have to agree.  I'm not bending over for anybody, even those who think they're too big for the rest of us.  The way I see it, if they're that 'big', it's easier for them to go fuck themselves... 

Wed, 06/11/2014 - 23:19 | 4847356 jeff montanye
jeff montanye's picture

i think it's more the girth than the length.  unless you're sucking yourself.

Wed, 06/11/2014 - 21:44 | 4847080 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

    But not so big, "that they can't find a knat on an elephants ass".

Wed, 06/11/2014 - 21:45 | 4847082 Xanadu_doo
Xanadu_doo's picture

Shocked I say. Shocked.

Wed, 06/11/2014 - 21:49 | 4847096 philosophers bone
philosophers bone's picture

We are basically headed towards at least one mass murder a day.  I just can't believe that it hasn't gone beyond isolated nailgun incidents with the bankers yet.

Wed, 06/11/2014 - 22:16 | 4847183 CCanuck
CCanuck's picture


That is because the typical whackjob mass killer has no idea who is behind this mess.

They simply focus thier attention to the factors that directly affect them, or simply go on a rampage to areas they will meet the least resistance for entry and execution; usually heavily medicated or a period of withdrawl on/from SSRI's as well.

If a zHedgie were to snap, I am certain they would know where to hunt, where to hit for greatest impact.

The Shit is real when these start happen'n....right now nobody important is getting whacked...when was the last assasination of any relevent statesman/power player?

3-4 hits on major players and its time to bunker down, IMO.


Wed, 06/11/2014 - 22:22 | 4847206 NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

The real question is who are the real players? All I ever see are their sycophants.


So if there is a real script to all of this, then some things are obviously missing from the puzzle. 

Wed, 06/11/2014 - 23:00 | 4847244 CCanuck
CCanuck's picture been here a while, are you suggesting that you would find it difficult to create a list of ....lets say 5-7 dooshbags that have done nothing but destroy for personal gain?

There are numerous degenerate cocksuckers in the powerplaya world that have destroyed 100's of families, responsible for thousands of deaths.

Fuck the .0001% is full murdering sociopaths,  highest per capita of stone cold criminals than any other group....

These cocksuckers are not that hard to find, use hookers and blow as bait, a thinking hunter could have a limit day by noon.


Wed, 06/11/2014 - 22:38 | 4847248 XitSam
XitSam's picture

Assassination? LOL That Kony guy is still alive as far as I know.

Wed, 06/11/2014 - 21:50 | 4847102 kowalli
kowalli's picture

Next one - too super human to judge according to the law or is it was?

Wed, 06/11/2014 - 21:53 | 4847114 nmewn
nmewn's picture

So, we've finally gotten past the dazzling them with brilliance and the baffling them with bullshit part and its a straight face plant into a steaming pile of bullshit now.


Almost there kids, patience ;-)

Wed, 06/11/2014 - 22:42 | 4847256 Bad Attitude
Bad Attitude's picture

I am amazed by how blatant the lies from our government "leaders" have become. And, when they get caught in an obvious lie, they respond with an even more preposterous lie. With a search engine and YouTube, it is so easy to catch them in a lie and document it. No wonder the Obama regime wants to control the internet.

Forward (over the cliff)!

Wed, 06/11/2014 - 21:54 | 4847115 A Lunatic
A Lunatic's picture

"I'm on it. Yep it's all good."    -Eric Holder-

Wed, 06/11/2014 - 21:57 | 4847120 A Lunatic
A Lunatic's picture

The tools for decentralization are being developed as we speak


They have actually been around for quite some time.....Guillotines, pitchforks, ropes, torches.....

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 00:19 | 4847460 intric8
intric8's picture

too big, ey? Let's put the nailgun down and go for the fucking chainsaw already. These agencies need to be reduced to pieces.

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 15:03 | 4849694 SameAsItEverWas
SameAsItEverWas's picture

The tools for decentralization are being developed as we speak They have actually been around for quite some time.....Guillotines, pitchforks, ropes, torches.....

Umm.  Guns and ammo have been around ever since gunpowder, which was too antiquated for all the bombings we had in the 1960s and 1970s.

When the Soviet Union collapsed, they never really looked very hard to find out if they were missing any small nukes, aka ADMs. Those would do just fine.  Why bother developing any new tools?  Seems to me the existing tools would work just fine.

I used to work with fine folks who keep the nukes safe and sound.  And I know for a fact that the nukes left in Ukraine were protected as were all of the Russian Bear's nukes by locks and keys developed by Ukrainian mathematicians who did all that R&D right in Ukraine.

Just sayin.  There are things going on now over there.


Wed, 06/11/2014 - 21:57 | 4847122 Zoomorph
Zoomorph's picture

There are technical challenges to storing huge amounts of data indefinitely. Consider the amount of memory that would be required and the added maintenance of swapping memory in and out to backup. And consider that most of that information is probably garbage that can be purged. Updating a large software introduces the possibility for bugs and will likely require weeks of testing.

That is what the filing appears to be about.

The article is off in never-never land.

I actually think it's more comforting that they discard data after 2-5 years than keep it indefinitely. This means that that'll only have 2-5 years on anyone (unless they were flagged for particular interest earlier on).

Wed, 06/11/2014 - 22:16 | 4847182 nmewn
nmewn's picture


They were never supposed to have it without AN INDIVIDUAL WARRANT (that nasty ole BoR's again) in the first place!

The peoples Bill of Rights has been abrogated by the state and you're talking about the fucking technicalities of them properly disposing of the shit they stole from us?

"Dammit...I've stolen so many cars it would damage the used car market severely to just dump all these cars out there, so as an act of kindness on my part (to all used car salesman everywhere) I'm gonna hold on to these until I can figure out what to do with them. 

Its just the right thing to do (Shiny gold tooth smile)" fucking and all your accomplices are going to suffer the consequences from stealing from us.

Wed, 06/11/2014 - 22:24 | 4847197 Zoomorph
Zoomorph's picture

I'm not saying that I support NSA spying, I'm just not sure what all the fuss about this story is. IMO this article is taking something out of context and/or blowing a lot of smoke.

I'm not surprised because, frankly, there are a couple bloggers ZH regularly sources articles from that sound like young kids trying to stir up as much controversy as they can by writing emotionally charged articles complete with smoke and mirrors. This guy is one of them. I wish they stuck to legitimate news articles instead of bloggers' commentaries.

Wed, 06/11/2014 - 22:29 | 4847219 NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

That "cool passivity" is what is wrong with the world, you are too willing to put up with too much BS so the crazies get emboldened. 


In order words, you're too passive towards them. You let them walk all over you and do not tell them that they are in the wrong. Basically you're appeasing and enabling these assholes, that is the point. You should be pissed off and saying something about it instead of sounding like a defeated slave. You don't have to get inflammatory, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't be saying something about it being an issue.

Wed, 06/11/2014 - 23:14 | 4847302 Zoomorph
Zoomorph's picture

Tbh, I'm not yet convinced that TPTB are the enemy. I think that the masses may be a worse enemy than TPTB. They would happily create a socialist utopia for us if they were in power (ie. a true democracy), where everyone would be equal(ly stupid) and life would be perfectly boring, safe, and meaningless.

If TPTB is aiming to weaken the masses and eventually impose a new order on them, then maybe we should actually support these "bad guys"?

Not that I particularly cherish TPTB, but I'm looking for an alternative before I condemn them.

Wed, 06/11/2014 - 23:28 | 4847363 margaris
margaris's picture

So.... you'd rather work with the slavemaster, because your fellow slaves are just too incapable and stupid savages.

You know 200 years ago there was a Name for that:

house negro

Wed, 06/11/2014 - 23:48 | 4847406 CCanuck
CCanuck's picture

+1 for housie ref.

Wed, 06/11/2014 - 23:59 | 4847407 Zoomorph
Zoomorph's picture

I'm not your average nihilistic slave... I don't care that much about my personal happiness. I'd sacrifice myself for any cause over personal happiness, which I perceive as empty and futile. If I see the absolute abolition of slavery as a bad thing for mankind, why shouldn't I support the masters in the great fight, even if I am one of the slaves by monetary standards (I guess I'm not by moral standards)?

House negros worked with the slavemasters for paltry personal gain.

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 00:27 | 4847472 CCanuck
CCanuck's picture

Your personal gain could never be paltry, because you don;t care about your personal happiness, you'd sacrifice yourself?

Jesus... is that you??..Is this your second comming, are you gonna end slavery by giving in to the slave masters.

Thank the Lord no more House Negros. Zoomorph has saved us all..rejoice,

Amen Brother....




You're an Idiot


Thu, 06/12/2014 - 00:41 | 4847498 Zoomorph
Zoomorph's picture

I realize that happiness is a secondary phenomenon. It comes and goes and is in proportion with the amount of unhappiness also experienced (as hot is to cold). The masses who pursue happiness will never find it, except maybe in soma or rewiring their brains, but even then it would be worthwhile and meaningless.

To experience happiness, or emotions of any kind, or to be considered alive, mankind needs a cause to fight for. They need hope. It's no surprise that after every problem of "inequality" is solved, a new, smaller one always arises from the shadows to replace it. The common cause of the slaves is to fight against slavery and discomfort in all forms, but this is a nihilistic cause because if it were ever met, they would have defeated themselves.

I am no exception. After rejecting the common cause of the slaves, I also need a cause to fight for. Am I like Jesus? Perhaps in some ways.

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 05:50 | 4847714 Bemused Observer
Bemused Observer's picture

Damn! What the hell are you ON?

Wed, 06/11/2014 - 23:25 | 4847365 linniepar
linniepar's picture

Someone grab me a blanket; its a bit shilly in here...

Wed, 06/11/2014 - 23:57 | 4847421 OldPhart
OldPhart's picture
Member for
27 weeks 4 days

Zero Hedge:  We have another one.

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 00:03 | 4847434 Zoomorph
Zoomorph's picture

Someone who dares question the mob mentality? Silence him! ;-)

BTW - I'm genuinely curious here. I'm hoping someone can teach me a lesson or challenge my views. My fear is that all I'll get are personal attacks.

If it's really self-evident that TPTB are bad, someone must be able to explain why in a logical argument, including what the alternatives are.

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 00:11 | 4847444 The_Prisoner
The_Prisoner's picture

So you propose that people just bend over and take it? I guess some people do learn to love their chains.

There are alternatives put forward daily, some by commenters in this very blog. Which is why your masters in government see fit to create a system to spy and catalog all dissent, so they can be silenced should be start to get critical mass. They know theirs effectiveness at holding on to the power they seized from the people depends on the amount of confidence they can project.





Thu, 06/12/2014 - 00:23 | 4847467 Zoomorph
Zoomorph's picture

I propose that the smart people leave the majority of serfs to get destroyed and only worry about ourselves. I propose that we view the majority as a worse enemy than those currently with more power than us, and that if we are to help orchestrate the overthrow of those in power, we have a plan in place to assume power ourselves after they are gone, and not to leave it in the hands of the average serfs who will continue their effort towards a socialist utopia, unless we have reason to believe that they won't succeed.

I propose that we consider carefully from what perspective/context TPTB ought to be considered our enemies, what alternatives there are, and what we'd like to see them replaced with.

I don't really have the answers. As you can see, I've only been involved in politics/economics for 27 weeks. I'm trying to question people here who are hell bent on overthrowing TPTB because I'm hoping that they have the answers, otherwise they shouldn't be so confident....

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 00:47 | 4847511 The_Prisoner
The_Prisoner's picture

Read your Orwell again: The majority are easily manipulated by those in power by bread, circus, pride and fear, so that the majority can stay in power and prevent the middle from attaining power for themselves.

As the amount of power to go around shrinks due to peak oil (or peak debt), the TPTB face the increased risk of being turned upon by their peers (canibalization) and thus must consolidate their position by eliminating the challenges that might be posed by middle class.

You have to try and understand that many people, including myself, do not want to wield power over others, simply to be left alone to pursue what I believe to be important to me. Hint: It's not money.


Thu, 06/12/2014 - 02:09 | 4847578 Zoomorph
Zoomorph's picture

You are not the only person with desires. Your desire to be left alone can easily be trumped by someone else's desire not to leave you alone if they're more powerful than you. There are 2 ways that you could guarantee you will be left alone to do your own thing:
1. Become more powerful than all other people combined (ie. become the only person left on the planet).
2. Convert human beings into a harmless species (ie. human beings as happy corpses with no brains or emotions).

Both options would eliminate power from the world (not mentioning other organisms, but they'd have to be dealt with as well). Out of curiosity, would your pursuit still be possible/valuable/meaningful/important in a world without power?

Perhaps that is the fundamental question. I would say no, that I can't think of any pursuitthat would be worthwhile to me in a world without power. Therefore, I can't idealize such a world or support anyone who does (such as the socialist utopian masses).

You might say yes, in which case we fundamentally disagree on the value of life.

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 02:17 | 4847589 The_Prisoner
The_Prisoner's picture

False dichotomy.

Because you cannot think of worthy pursuits other than the will-to-power it does not mean that others aren't able to.

Try a bit less Nietschze and a bit more Lao Tzu.

All you need is love.

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 02:35 | 4847606 Zoomorph
Zoomorph's picture

You can't have real love without hatred.

Can you provide some examples of worthy pursuits in a world without power?

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 03:08 | 4847636 The_Prisoner
The_Prisoner's picture

Another false dichotomy.


I said I choose not to exercise power over others. I did not advocate the extinguishing of power. Power is the rate of energy use, you cannot extinguish it ;-)






Thu, 06/12/2014 - 10:42 | 4848370 Zoomorph
Zoomorph's picture

You still haven't told me anything.

To continue this pedantic discussion... if you truly chose not to exercise power over others you wouldn't be here supporting a revolution or trying to influence others with your thoughts, you'd be in a temple somewhere meditating.

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 21:40 | 4851098 Seeing Red
Seeing Red's picture

"I'm trying to question people here who are hell bent on overthrowing TPTB because I'm hoping that they have the answers, otherwise they shouldn't be so confident ...."

This appears to be a subversive attempt to generate FUD (Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt).  If you really believe this garbage you have issues.

p.s.  Questions are often far more interesting than answers.

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 21:28 | 4851104 Seeing Red
Seeing Red's picture

"I propose that the smart people leave the majority of serfs to get destroyed and only worry about ourselves."

I propose you find another forum for this crap.  Adios (I hope).

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 00:14 | 4847450 Miffed Microbio...
Miffed Microbiologist's picture

No one here has advocated silencing you that I can see. The problem for you is there are many here who relish freedom and self determination and you seem content to be caged, regulated and cared for. This will naturally cause conflict. This is not personal but ideological. So stand your ground and fight or fade away with hurt feelings. Or, if you are simply trolling,then I suppose I should tell you to fuck off but that isn't really me.


Thu, 06/12/2014 - 00:25 | 4847477 Zoomorph
Zoomorph's picture

Fair enough... and that's one thing I'll say in favor of ZH... I haven't seen any censorship on here. That alone sets this place apart from 99% of the internet. (It seems extremely fashionable for socialists and liberals to censor anyone they disagree with; freedom of speech was probably only in fashion when they were the minority.)

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 00:43 | 4847506 Miffed Microbio...
Miffed Microbiologist's picture

People have been banned here so I wouldn't claim ZH is the bastion of verbal freedom. However I haven't found another site that has elucidated the financial, social, political and economic disasters we face today in such depth. If you are truly questioning the statis quo and want alternative viewpoints this is a good place. If you frankly think TPTB are not the problem then you seriously need a large red pill and to take a board to your TV.


Thu, 06/12/2014 - 01:03 | 4847526 Zoomorph
Zoomorph's picture

I don't own a TV. ;-) But I try to question everything. There are various levels to everything. To use film as an analogy: There are people who watch mainstream film. Then there are people who watch independent American film and believe they are so much better than those who watch mainstream film. Then there are people who watch foreign film who believe they're so much better than those who watch independent or mainstream film. Then there are those who watch any obscure old film and believe they are better than those who watch popular foreign film (and everyone else). There are various levels of openness and consciousness about film, and the same thing applies to all other fields in life from the arts to sciences. It's always easy and tempting to stop questioning or challenging oneself, tolook at those who are "below" you (who you were one of in the past, but have grown beyond) and think of how much better you are. But to stop there is to sell oneself short and to remain delusional (albeit slightly less so than mainstream). I'm not implying that this is a conscious process or something they have control over, at least not for most people, but it's something that I've often thought about.

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 09:53 | 4848177 acetinker
acetinker's picture

You're asking questions and getting junked...  maybe it's because you seem so naive?  This is a tough crowd, no doubt- but for the most part honest.  Your queries are too vague to warrant an answer at this point.

But if you are really serious about wanting answers, hang around awhile and try not to be too annoying;)

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 11:34 | 4848620 Miffed Microbio...
Miffed Microbiologist's picture

I see your dilemma. You care what others think. It does not matter if our characteristics are "above" or "below" from the mainstream thought. It is who we are and how we define ourself is what matters. This will change over time as we grow into ourselves but it should be our choice. Every thing presented must be evaluated as true or not true. But we must be careful not to descend into relativism where I think you have gone.

Thinking and evaluating are always good but if you have no standard with which to judge you will be forever lost and floating at sea. Your path should be to define yourself first IMHO.


Thu, 06/12/2014 - 12:39 | 4848930 Zoomorph
Zoomorph's picture

Relativism is reality. As a person becomes more educated & experienced, mature, conscious, wise or perspicacious, they climb beyond some of the baser delusions of mankind/society and see the world with more clarity. This is a normal process of growth that is experienced by everyone to varying degrees. In some (whose lives are more challenging) it can be vastly accelerated. Some are conscious of the process. In the majority, the process is retarded.

I don't think this process is something to resist. I think that, generally speaking, those with more clarity should be able to guide and advise those with less, who are often engaged in petty arguments or behave hypocritically. Perhaps there's a danger of loss of sanity or survivability in those who go far? It seems that everyone needs some amount of standard, beliefs, or delusions to cling to and to ground them. We'll see how long I last, or if my path changes at some point. Ultimately, it's all beyond our control. :-)

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 15:31 | 4849813 Seeing Red
Seeing Red's picture

I find your elitism (even if you don't call it that) very annoying.  I find myself wondering what you would do with SERIOUS power, and it's not a pretty picture.

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 20:08 | 4850867 Miffed Microbio...
Miffed Microbiologist's picture

Relativism is not reality but a construct in ones mind. It cannot be absolute because all is relative by definition by the relativist.

Education does not necessarily lead to evolution of mind. I have found much wisdom in my farrier who graduated from high school. He exceeded a few of my college professors in perceptive thought. His talent was in simplicity which let to clarity whereas verbosity in the higher educated can often lead to nebulous conclusions and debate for no purpose than to debate. Guidance of others should not be based on clarity because there is no way to objectively assess this. I may claim absolute clarity and you may claim I do not but you do. Do we call in an outside arbiter? And how do we assess his capability in this matter?

A standard should be a guide post not a delusion though I admit it could be. Moral decisions based on natural law have stood the test of time throughout human history and are standards in many religions. However each cannot be absolute. Wisdom is needed to apply them correctly in each case. History has shown us this has not been done often, unfortunately.


Thu, 06/12/2014 - 20:35 | 4850933 acetinker
acetinker's picture

There you go, being annoying.  I don't think you have questions at all.  Listen up, Poindexter-  this group mostly doesn't care about your philosophical bullshit.  However, we won't exclude you ourselves, the Tylers might though.

You're on here trying to pretend you want answers when what you really want is to subvert and see if you can drive wedges.

Guess what?  Some of us have been here awhile and since we're not perfect like you have learned to accept each other's warts.

Fifty years ago, when I was a kid, my grandmother placed a wooden plaque on her brand-new bathroom wall.  Prior to that, the "facility" was outdoors.  It said something along the lines of;

A friend is not a person,

Or taken in by sham.

A friend is one who knows our faults,

And doesn't give a damn!


You with your questions.  Nah, you wanna provide answers to questions I've already decided are irrelevant to the situation.

I don't need your help, Bernays.  Chew on that.

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 00:37 | 4847495 bunnyswanson
bunnyswanson's picture

It is not hard to miss the "environment" that described the NSA.  The opposing politicians are screwed without the ability to communicate freely.  Do I have to mention the industrial aspect considering the overthrowing of govt to gain access to the country's natural resources and install a bank via loans (to clean up  the rubble) from IMF?  Spying on the competition, which used to keep a man honest (honest competition always wins because no one likes to be SCAMMED) is a stake in the heart of capitalism. Vlast by Feud


Dirty laundry could cost heroes.  And the ever present eye in the sky will take care of the rest eventually Michael Hastings' style when there is no scandal in their closet.





Wed, 06/11/2014 - 23:13 | 4847338 telefunken
telefunken's picture

Are you high bitch? Say hi to barry for us when you pick up your jidf check.

Wed, 06/11/2014 - 22:26 | 4847213 Miffed Microbio...
Miffed Microbiologist's picture

There should be no " comfort" in its destruction. There should only be anger directed at its collection. You may think differently if you are flagged by an algorithm and must defend your innocence. That this surveillance has not prevented numerous shootings, Boston marathon bombing, Times Square car bomb etc... should be a clue to its efficacy. It will only hurt the innocent.

And what is the point of storing this massive, ineffective data? Yes, the cost is astronomical. And who will pay for this? I can't imagine. Companies are hankering for a sweet government contract to store and maintain it. Money and control, same as ever.


Wed, 06/11/2014 - 22:31 | 4847225 NidStyles
NidStyles's picture

Government is the primary means by which malinvestments occur in any one given economy. 

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 02:14 | 4847585 One of We
One of We's picture

Welcome to the party bro.  Dont mind the down arrows, you can take a punch and come back for more (and I don't sense troll/shill) so you're going to fit in just fine....

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 07:08 | 4847779 smacker
smacker's picture

Given that the NSA is supposed to comply with the Law of The Land and the Constitution, it should never have allowed its own systems to grow beyond the point where they can be controlled and be accountable to the very people it purports to represent: the American People.

Wed, 06/11/2014 - 21:57 | 4847124 Bemused Observer
Bemused Observer's picture

All the shit the NSA has painstakingly collected will one day be hauled out of the house by some future "Hoarders"-type reality show.
The NSA will be screaming and crying, demanding to go through every bag before it is tossed onto the truck.

Their 'collection' will be totally useless, any important data buried beneath a mountain of minutiae and lost forever or damaged beyond repair...

Wed, 06/11/2014 - 23:20 | 4847358 telefunken
telefunken's picture

*murmers  "It's around here somewhere.."..."don't throw that out! I may need that sometime..."

Wed, 06/11/2014 - 22:03 | 4847141 nah
nah's picture

re-engineering the world is a smaller task than asking the government to not behave like Google, Walmart, Goldman Sachs, Intel, MIT, health insurance, and the Navy.

Wed, 06/11/2014 - 22:09 | 4847163 Dazman
Dazman's picture

Great. Now we have a legitimate reason to cut budget and make them smaller, by their own admission!

Wed, 06/11/2014 - 22:12 | 4847168 Spungo
Spungo's picture

I'm almost afraid to cut the NSA's budget. If they only have enough money to spy on 100 million people, they'll probably execute Americans until the population drops to 100 million.

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 00:02 | 4847433 CCanuck
CCanuck's picture

Hitlary Clinton is looking for a few good people to develop policy for her Terms in Office. This line of thinking is exactly what we are looking for, good ideas to balance the budget.

Spungo, how about coming down to Arkansas for an interview?

The position will be intern-entry level to start, as Hilary has been broke since leaving office.

But pay will go into seven figures once elected with full beni's and a Golden parachute.

Give us a call Spungo, join the team, and we'll put our shoulder into it:    

 Lean Forward for Hitlary 2016 We'll change things.


Hitlary and Huma

Wed, 06/11/2014 - 22:13 | 4847173 Colonel Klink
Colonel Klink's picture

Well then as with anything too large to follow the law, start breaking it apart and disbanding the criminal organization.

Wed, 06/11/2014 - 22:18 | 4847189 Mr. Pickles
Mr. Pickles's picture

Too Big to <Fill in the Blank> is Too Big to Exist, period.

Wed, 06/11/2014 - 22:19 | 4847192 Chupacabra-322
Chupacabra-322's picture

The Internet was supposed to be a portal into the future for human communication, fostering greater understanding and cooperation between people. But of course the cynical and powerful devised a way to subvert, what was a pure and revolutionary idea, and to make it subservient to their power. The NSA has managed to get such a firm grip on the Internet that they're giddy with their new omniscient surveillance power. They'll never give up that power without a fight. It's what makes the US so dangerous. They now have the power of God, to listen and hear secret conversations.

They think they are God.

And they must be stopped.

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 08:23 | 4847887 shovelhead
shovelhead's picture

They have all our information and comunnications.

We have LOLCats.

Seems resonable.

Wed, 06/11/2014 - 22:29 | 4847220 Bunga Bunga
Bunga Bunga's picture

Get over it, they are above the law.

Wed, 06/11/2014 - 22:33 | 4847233 RichardParker
RichardParker's picture

Welcome to the "Technetronic Age" as per Zbig Bryzinksi

Wed, 06/11/2014 - 22:55 | 4847289 navy62802
navy62802's picture

The real question becomes how does the government hold itself accountable. When the government cannot be held to account for its own actions, even when those actions run afowl of established law, then that government is no longer legitimate by definition. The question then becomes what do you do about it? Apparently, in the United States, you don't do anything and allow the government in power to continue to do anything it wishes. Which is exactly what has happened. The question now becomes "where does it end?" I don't know because at this point, we are simply ruled by the mob. Because at some point the mob will become angry and at that point, action will be taken. We have now become ancient Rome. Only the perceived wishes of the mob are honored now ... the law be damned.

Wed, 06/11/2014 - 23:08 | 4847323 telefunken
telefunken's picture

Like when the debate-Is Snowden a traitor? How can you betray a county that spies on its own citizens?! 

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 03:53 | 4847658 Incubus
Incubus's picture





Wed, 06/11/2014 - 23:03 | 4847309 telefunken
telefunken's picture

We have become a nation of jews and not laws. I know,I know roll your eyes.

the "elite" a psychopathic super-minority of the population intent on destroying nations in an unending quest for money and power while eliminating any who might oppose.

Naw,your right,doesn't sound like any religious racial group I ever heard of....

Wed, 06/11/2014 - 23:06 | 4847321 Duude
Duude's picture

"The crucial question is this: If the NSA does not have to keep evidence of its spying activities, how can a court ever test whether it is in fact complying with the Constitution?"


This is the way of K Street.  Nothing to see here. Move along now.

Wed, 06/11/2014 - 23:12 | 4847327 telefunken
telefunken's picture

I can only imagine how many terabytes they have of me ordering chinese food and posting on financial blogs-the electric bill alone!


Thu, 06/12/2014 - 01:30 | 4847549 El Vaquero
El Vaquero's picture

The Bluffdale, UT datacenter uses something like 65MW and over 1 million gallons of water per day.  What is electricity in that part of the country?  $0.11/kwh?  That's $171,600 per day, or $62 million per year.  What are they going to do when they figure out that Yellen cannot print joules? 

Wed, 06/11/2014 - 23:09 | 4847324 donis
donis's picture


Wed, 06/11/2014 - 23:12 | 4847333 pelican
pelican's picture

Doesn't it seem like the structure is breaking down?

Wed, 06/11/2014 - 23:12 | 4847334 pelican
pelican's picture

Doesn't it seem like the structure is breaking down?

Wed, 06/11/2014 - 23:17 | 4847349 telefunken
telefunken's picture

The gov. has become a drunk Godzilla-a giant,out of control creature that each citizen hopes does not step on them. A little more chaos helps them (day after day "shootings"),a LOT of chaos destroys them but it reallly hurts everyone else as well.

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 01:41 | 4847553 El Vaquero
El Vaquero's picture

Yup, just like Godzilla:

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 08:06 | 4847848 El Hosel
El Hosel's picture

Yeah, the structure is breaking down all barriers total Gubberment information control.... Not Say Anything, unless you want everyone to hear it.

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 00:09 | 4847442 Aussiekiwi
Aussiekiwi's picture

Forget it, its over, the people lost before they even knew they were in a war, NSA 1,000,000 points, people=0. this will never stop, you don't build data centres with enough storage to store every available phone call,txt,Internet session in the world a hundred times over with out having any intention of using it, you will just have to get used to the NSA peering over your shoulder, they are going nowhere.

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 01:37 | 4847552 El Vaquero
El Vaquero's picture

It's over?  The NSA is easy to bypass.  Go old school and don't rely on electronic communications.  I can operate outside of cell phone service just fine, and I'd be willing to wager that there are a lot more people like me than there are drones.  I simply do not use electronic communications for anything that I give a shit about the NSA knowing.  And even then, they collect so much that there is no way that their analysts can cover it all, even with pre-screening via computer, which will throw out a lot more false positives than real hits.  On an individual basis, when the NSA targets you, you had better get ready for one helluva fight.  If you back off and look at the bigger picture, they're a paper tiger. 

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 07:48 | 4847750 Sorry_about_Dresden
Sorry_about_Dresden's picture

You are using the Hank Paulson strategy.

When he was hauled before Congress to answer questions about the 780 billion he and Llyod Blankfein looted from the treasury a congressman asked "well didn't you get email from other treasury officials alerting you there might be problems and weaknesses that would reduce liquidity in the system? Didn't you get any emails from your colleages that might indicate a problem?"

Hank Paulson, very snidly answered "Congressman I don't and have never had an email account. I don't use email to talk to other colleages in treasury or anywhere else. If I want to talk to someone I get up and walk down the hall and knock on their door or schedule a meeting for a face to face conversation. I don't use email"

I was stunned! What a fucking genius. Just like Eric Scmidt said "If you have something to hide then don't put it on the internet.

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 09:18 | 4848049 Farmer Joe in B...
Farmer Joe in Brooklyn's picture

You're commenting on ZeroHedge.  Welcome to the top of the list.

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 02:39 | 4847602 q99x2
q99x2's picture

I agree. All these large corporations must be replaced with open source software and turned into global resource software systems. The oligarchs are like dogs protecting their food supply. Animals are they.

And monetary systems all need to be converted to a million different cryptocurrencies that has value determined by the amount of goods and services being traded with at any particular time; not exchanges. That's how we do it on q99x2.

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 04:36 | 4847672 cherry picker
cherry picker's picture

When IRS or some .gov agency comes to your door, tell them you are an operative with NSA, TSA, CIA or DEA and you can't give them info because of National Security.  Let them prove you wrong.

Me, I will ask the USA for a loan for my Taliban operations.  I know they will try and kill me later, but with my billions I will find a nice drone proof hide out somehwere :)

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 04:46 | 4847678 TheSecondLaw
TheSecondLaw's picture

Altogether now:  SIEG HEIL!!!

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 06:54 | 4847767 realWhiteNight123129
realWhiteNight123129's picture

Be serene, the whole construct has never been so close to blow up. Can put all the NSA you want, it would change a damn, the failure is built in. So sit down and relax while watching the things fall appart, and then do you part to rebuild it in a sound fashion.


Thu, 06/12/2014 - 07:22 | 4847788 RealityCheque
RealityCheque's picture

To the NSA spook monitoring this thread for "salacious" activity: come on out into the light you scurrilous cunt. I won't hurt you. I'll kill you. But I wont hurt you. ;)

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 09:40 | 4848107 yellowsub
yellowsub's picture

Laws are to keep "law abiding" citizens in line through fear of being jailed, etc...  


Thu, 06/12/2014 - 10:01 | 4848214 esum
esum's picture

congress is not doing its job... and harry reid blocks any initiatives that try to reign in the obumbler regime.and all its scandals and corrupt/political DOJ).. and the courts are liberal slanted... so there you go.. the system is BROKEN... permanently. But it is amplified under this regime because the see there is ZERO ACCOUNTABILITY and FBI/DOJ "investigations(stall tactics) go NOWHERE.. break the law supporting obumbler and you are set for life.. get promoted, collect full retirement and walk away laughing at the taxpayers..

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 10:54 | 4848413 LostAtSea
LostAtSea's picture



We will do whatever the fuck we want.  What are you going to do about it?



Thu, 06/12/2014 - 15:18 | 4849756 SameAsItEverWas
SameAsItEverWas's picture

... and I look forward to a much brighter and freer future.

The choice is ours [because]

I found a new drug!

Fri, 06/13/2014 - 02:56 | 4851751 cooky puss
cooky puss's picture


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