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America's Record Political And Ideological Divide In Charts

Tyler Durden's picture


One hardly needs more charts to understand that over the past 6 years America has never become more ideologically and politically divided, but here, just to hammer that point, is the latest survey of 10,000 adults from Pew confirming just this.

In a nutshell, after some modest convergence to the center in the last decade of the 20th century and the early years of the 21st, Americans have radically polarized their views and have grown further apart politically and culturally to never before seen degrees. The "median democrat" has become more ideologically consistent with other liberals, while the "median republican", with other conservatives. Furthermore, both sides are more disapproving of those they disagree with.

Finally those at the extremes are most vocal, as the dwindling center has grown frustrated by both wings. And not helping matters is a Congress, which courtesy of the Fed's monetary policy which is now extensively used in lieu of a functioning fiscal process ("Get to work Mr. Chairman"), means that dissatisfaction with the broken legislative branch has never been higher, even if the stock market is at all time highs.

An animation of America's record polarization

NEW: How political polarization in America is affecting politics, compromise & everyday life


And in charts:


Democrats and Republicans More Ideologically Divided than in the Past

Republicans Shift to the Right, Democrats to the Left

More Democrats Take Liberal Positions, More Republicans Take Conservative Positions

Growing Minority Holds Consistent Ideological Views

Polarization Surges Among the Politically Engaged

Growth in Ideological Polarization Sharper among Politically Engaged

Growing Gaps between Republicans and Democrats

Ideological Self-Placement Mostly Corresponds to Political Values, With Some Exceptions

Compromise in the Eye of the Beholder

Liberals, Conservatives Want Their Side to Get More of What It Wants


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Thu, 06/12/2014 - 10:37 | 4848346 nuclearsquid
nuclearsquid's picture

looks like a mound of shit.


Thu, 06/12/2014 - 10:40 | 4848362 AlaricBalth
AlaricBalth's picture

"Divide et impera. The reprobated axiom of tyranny..."  James Madison

Creating or encouraging divisions among the subjects to prevent alliances that could challenge the sovereign.

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 10:48 | 4848387 SafelyGraze
SafelyGraze's picture

how can there be this much difference of opinion?

after all the work we did to establish public education

j dewey 

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 10:55 | 4848420 CH1
CH1's picture

how can there be this much difference of opinion?

Ask the same people, "Do you support democracy" and 99% will say "Yes."

Government conditioning centers for the win.

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 11:05 | 4848471 Vampyroteuthis ...
Vampyroteuthis infernalis's picture

Yes, at the article's end Liberals only consist of 23 % of the population. How did we get Obummer again? No fraud here..... move along.

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 11:13 | 4848516 Hippocratic Oaf
Hippocratic Oaf's picture

It's the 'white guilt' vote that made the fuckin diff!

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 11:23 | 4848570 XitSam
XitSam's picture

Will it be 'gender guilt' or just fraud that elects Hillary?

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 11:26 | 4848587 lordylord
lordylord's picture

The only number you need:  100,000,000 retards voted for Obummer or Romney in 2012.  God help us.

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 11:31 | 4848604 barre-de-rire
barre-de-rire's picture

you'd kill the 100.000.000 before hillary 2016

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 11:43 | 4848661 Pool Shark
Pool Shark's picture



Think that's bad?

Leland Yee got 300,000 brain-dead Californians to vote for him:

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 11:55 | 4848720 Raymond K Hessel
Raymond K Hessel's picture

This article misses an important point that Nevada Democratics discovered in last night's primary for Governor.  The largest segment of votes have no party affiliation.  It's independents, then Democrats, then Republcans.  It seems many independents, not all, are disillusioned ex-Republicans that still vote conservative but want nothting to do with GOP leadershit.

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 11:57 | 4848736 dontgoforit
dontgoforit's picture

I like strawberry and blueberry.

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 15:20 | 4849759 Four chan
Four chan's picture

is clone of hitler up and running yet?

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 13:31 | 4849209 markovchainey
markovchainey's picture


Thank you for adding to my vocabulary, that's beautiful!

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 11:31 | 4848610 Stackers
Stackers's picture

The only thing meeting in the middle of the road is good for is getting run over.

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 14:11 | 4849454 Pickleton
Pickleton's picture

Usually that's a fantasy anyway.  Typically all that means is, the right completely caves to the nutbag left.

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 11:48 | 4848674 Hugh_Jorgan
Hugh_Jorgan's picture

Providing answer choices like "Giving Obama everything he wants" or "Giving the Republicans everything they want" tells me a lot about the clowns designing the polling. We are only given options that assume we keep on playing this game that is played with two sets of rules. It is time to think outside the box a bit.

It'd be nice if they asked more pertinent questions, something that might show a more detailed picture of America's actual mindset, and show the pollees things from a new perspective:

"True or False: Both parties are only concerned about growing government to serve their ends and the ends of those who keep them in office?"

"Do you think the Republicans actually serve the conservative platform that they espouse?"

"Do you think Democrats are more concerned with: A) Preserving the major civil liberties affecting life and property. OR  B) Petty issues affecting tiny minorities because it plays well in the media at this point in time?"

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 14:10 | 4849448 CH1
CH1's picture

Will it be 'gender guilt' or just fraud that elects Hillary?

Those plus 30 million Latins, whom the Reds insult and injure at every opportunity.

Blind fools.

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 12:15 | 4848817 markpower49
markpower49's picture

Hopefully the ongoing depression gets rid of white guilt and we can get rid of the Africans in our midst.

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 14:12 | 4849455 CH1
CH1's picture

Fuck off and leave.

Fri, 06/13/2014 - 02:44 | 4851741 AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

There is nothing like white guilt.

And 'americans' have programmed the riddance of Africans not only in their midst but everywhere a long time ago.

It takes time.

'Americans' already are nearing the point of getting rid of the Indians where they can do (that is where they are Indians)

One can trust 'americans' to deliver in certain departments. They perform as fast as possible (way faster than anyone else in history) but things take time.

Keep the faith. The 'american' faith.

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 13:44 | 4849276 de3de8
de3de8's picture

I don't feel one little bit guilty

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 11:17 | 4848533 PresidentCamacho
PresidentCamacho's picture

We got an obummer from the fact that the population has been so hammered with propaganda to have white guilt that all emotional thinkers voted for obama for the feels

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 13:50 | 4849323 drstrangelove73
drstrangelove73's picture

Label the left(appropriate!) peak"young fat,stupid,lazy ignoramuses,and the peak on the right "the wisdom of the ages", and you've got it.

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 10:41 | 4848364 I am more equal...
I am more equal than others's picture



Looks like the groundwork for a civil war is being laid. 

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 10:42 | 4848372 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

Yes, by design.

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 10:52 | 4848401 PartysOver
PartysOver's picture

Yep, got your escape plan put together?   This just reflects what a lot of peeps feel but don't understand or accept.   May get real ugly or may get real lucky and avoid the castrophy on the horizon.

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 13:13 | 4849110 Bastiat
Bastiat's picture

Is that a disaster where you lose your nuts?

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 13:14 | 4849114 General Decline
General Decline's picture

If you're living in N America and you're not preparing for civil war, you are an idiot.

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 10:41 | 4848365 ShorTed
ShorTed's picture

You took this right where it needed to go.  Excellent analysis.

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 10:45 | 4848381 y3maxx
y3maxx's picture

...Real Shift happening w/ MIC. USSA MIC moving away from foreign war zones to own USSA Homeland. ...To control broke, disillusioned & unhappy 350 million USSA Citizens...including 100 million American Gen Y & Millenials.

YES """Looks like the groundwork for a civil war is being laid."""

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 11:09 | 4848481 bigkahuna
bigkahuna's picture

Dispatching with the useful idiots first. The statists know not what they ask for.

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 11:33 | 4848617 seek
seek's picture

Very fitting, because this is a shit data set.

Republicans more conservative, really? They shifted further right over the past decades, so it's now overrun with small government, lower spending, lower-regulation pro-freedom types?

And democrats are more liberal -- so team blue is agressively backing civil rights, reigning in the police and prison complex, and regulating big business to protect the little guy?

Yeah, this is a complete fraud. Conservative my ass, liberal my all. They just redefined their metrics of measurement to be whatever the religious right is and whatever "liberal" ideals today are, and then backwards-filled the data set to show the previously determined conclusion.

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 13:25 | 4849153 Chief Wonder Bread
Chief Wonder Bread's picture

I never respond to polls. The phone would be ringing off the hook if I did. Once they smell the blood in the water, they're all over you. The assholes actually leave prerecorded messages to respond to their worthless polls. Clearly, the people who answer these polls are self-selected, useful idiots who enjoy the masochistic exercise of responding to idiotic questions. Looking at the questions I can honestly say that I wouldn't even begin to know how to answer any of them seriously.

I don't like to be categorized and analyzed and all my preferences known. I figure it's an advantage to keep what I believe to myself and an object of obscurity to the pollsters and marketers (i.e., rascals and thieves.)

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 12:22 | 4848853 doctor10
doctor10's picture

if the division is for real-its certainly isn't a "Republican" or Democrat" division. That's a fabircation.


Its basically between the producers and the regulators/beneficiiaries (theives and their stooges?)

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 13:52 | 4849336 drendebe10
drendebe10's picture

Geee.... I wonder what happened after 2008???   Ya don't think it has any thing to do with the racially/politically/religous/economically divisive arrogant narcissistic illegal indonesian kenyan alien muslim sociopathic liar in chief?  Nah.... no way....

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 10:36 | 4848349 Cocomaan
Cocomaan's picture

I question their definitions of liberal and conservative.

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 10:44 | 4848376 greatbeard
greatbeard's picture

>> definitions of liberal and conservative

Exactly.  Although I find many willing to place the blame for every evil and every fuck up on liberals, I've yet to find anyone who can say what a liberal is.  I'm sure I'm placed firmly in the liberal camp although nobody has a clue what my positions are in reguards to issues.  But since I'm less than entralled with Republicans I must be a liberal.  There are quite a few issues I agree with what my perception of conservative views of the subject are, and there are quite a few that I disagree with.


Thu, 06/12/2014 - 10:51 | 4848399 SafelyGraze
SafelyGraze's picture

one thing that both "ideologies" can agree on:

we need more debt and more global intervention and more surveillance

and preserve the insulated autonomy of the central bank

and preserve the ability of lawmakers to front-run equities

these are platforms that make the country great

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 11:02 | 4848451 shovelhead
shovelhead's picture

Hey, I'd vote for that.

And a free nailgun for every home.

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 10:54 | 4848404 NoDebt
NoDebt's picture

If you believe in adherence to Constitutional principles, hold your personal freedoms in high regard (understanding they come with matching responsibilities) and think government is best that governs least, you pass the sniff test.

If not, you're a dirty stinking liberal.

Just kidding.  You'd actually be a statist.  I don't know what a liberal is, but I know what statism, corruption, cronyism and central planning are.


Thu, 06/12/2014 - 10:54 | 4848412 Dingleberry
Dingleberry's picture

A liberal is a dreamer.

You are confused, which is typical for a liberal.

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 11:59 | 4848750 KCMLO
KCMLO's picture

I was pondering this just the other day myself.  It is interesting that the label Liberal has become so corrupted.  Our country was founded on the principles of "liberalism" but only in the context of that timeframe.  The definition then being that governing power is not derived from divine right and therefore must be exercised from the will of the governed.  The ideal that man, as a sentient being, deserves the dignity of a free existence to pursue their goals as they see fit so long as it doesn't interfere with the rights of others.

The Constitution, for it's time frame, was a document derived from "liberal" ideals (also of that time frame).

Now the term has been corrupted to mean that man, as a sentient being, DESERVES the indignity of a subsidised existence if they lag "behind" and that it is the imposed and government enforced duty of those deemed more fortunate to provide that subsidy.  Also, the people as wards of a government that THEY elect should be subject to increased governmental control by virture of electing said government (ie the people elected representatives that espouse the idea of increasing government intervention therefore the will of the people is that they are increasingly imposed by their own government, even more simply put, you're asking for us to make decisions for you so we're doing it).

Sadly, the 2nd pillar of modern liberalism holds true.  Voters ARE asking for someone to make more choices and absorb more responsibility for them.  They might hee and haw when they occasionally come face to face with the results of an increasingly heavy handed government, but they continue to identify with a party (which at times can be either party) that oppresses them.

Ergo, the American ideal of liberalism (which initially sounded a hell of a lot like "libertarianism") has become so pervasive as to absolve most US voters to firmly believe that many functions of government and normal life fall firmly outside of their control.  This manifests itself (across the political spectrum even) with voters thinking the government is a distinctly separate entity instead of merely an extension of themselves.  The relationship becomes more of parent/child and eventually degrades into master/slave.  Not exactly a great outlook we have here when most of the country seems to think they are powerless to live their lives mostly as they see fit (by either voting for change, establishing networks within their community, or just simply ignoring laws that they find assinine).  In other words Americans... grow some fucking balls, why do you think someone else is responsible to give you what you want?

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 13:12 | 4849107 MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

In the modern era, conservative and liberal are merely the poles of a spectrum, on which your point is determined by how you answer the following question: should there be more or less government?  In the event you answer the former, then you're a liberal; in the event you answer the latter, then you're a conservative...  albeit of varying degrees (anarchists being the furthest conservative).

As used in the common vernacular (especially MSM), liberals and conservatives are defined by ancillary and irrelevant issues, e.g. abortion.  In short, the only matters discussed are "social" issues, rather than "monetary/fiscal" issues.  Given that the social function of a government is always dictated by the amount of funds at its disposal, we're ignoring the real differentiating factors between conservative and liberal ideologies (economic policy).  This is how republicans and democracts can both be liberal, but still claim to be different from one another.

If you control the meaning of the language...

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 20:20 | 4850902 StychoKiller
StychoKiller's picture

++ DoublePlusGood!

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 14:49 | 4849622 malek
malek's picture

 I've yet to find anyone who can say what a liberal is

That's easy:
Nowadays and for at least the last 2 decades, a liberal is someone who wants to be free from the consequences of his/her decisions and actions.

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 10:55 | 4848417 yrbmegr
yrbmegr's picture

Note also the normalization of each group to the population of the group, not to the total population.

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 11:00 | 4848444 CH1
CH1's picture

THAT is an interesting point.

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 11:12 | 4848511 yrbmegr
yrbmegr's picture

All part of the show.

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 10:39 | 4848358 nuclearsquid
nuclearsquid's picture

yawn.  polarization because everyone gets their news from small, online, niche echo rooms.


Thu, 06/12/2014 - 10:40 | 4848363 Tsar Pointless
Tsar Pointless's picture

What did you say? I can't hear you over all of the echos in this place.

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 10:51 | 4848396 Flakmeister
Flakmeister's picture


Thu, 06/12/2014 - 10:56 | 4848423 CrimsonAvenger
CrimsonAvenger's picture

That's an effect, not the cause. There are two causes: C-SPAN, which gave every blowhard politician a platfom to pander, and computers, which allowed politicians to slice and dice voting data to give gerrymandering efforts a turbo boost.

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 11:20 | 4848558 Flakmeister
Flakmeister's picture

More like the repeal of the Fairness Doctrine...

It led to the rise of a highly politicized media, especially when combined with the incredible concentration of the media into a few corporate hands...

Get your facts straight...

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 11:28 | 4848591 CrimsonAvenger
CrimsonAvenger's picture

Still think this is one of the few areas where politicians lead, not follow. If they had to represent districts with good red/blue breakdowns they wouldn't be nearly as partisan.

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 11:33 | 4848615 Flakmeister
Flakmeister's picture

Gerrymandering is indeed a pox....

Part of the solution is to increase the number of seats in the House to be at least on par with the population ratios of the 1830s....

You need to get a fair sampling of the electorate to have fair representation...

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 15:42 | 4849844 seek
seek's picture

This, getting rid of direct election of senators, and switching to a different method of voting (after very careful research) to get rid of "wasted votes."

People always look at me strange when I tell them we've never had less democratic representation in congress than today. Every single day the population grows, the seats are fixed, and we've gone from 1 rep per 33,000 people to 1 per 750,000 or so in the past 200 years.


Thu, 06/12/2014 - 10:41 | 4848366 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

The pendulum swings...

(until it breaks and then all hell breaks loose)

same as it ever was...

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 11:16 | 4848530 Seasmoke
Seasmoke's picture

Ahh. Ahh. Ahh. ........... Ahh. Ahh. Ahh.

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 10:42 | 4848371 pods
pods's picture

So some sheep like the left side of the pen and some like the right?

If you made a chart that showed liberty vs statism you would have to use a log chart for the statists.

That is all that really matters.


Thu, 06/12/2014 - 10:43 | 4848375 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

Great comment pods.  You can "prove" anything with statistics.

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 10:53 | 4848406 Flakmeister
Flakmeister's picture

Actually, you can't, but there is no shortage of people able to twist them to satisfy somebodys confirmation bias....

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 11:03 | 4848453 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

Why do you think I put the word "prove" in quotation marks asshat?

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 11:12 | 4848512 Flakmeister
Flakmeister's picture

No need to be nasty....

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 12:01 | 4848757 dontgoforit
dontgoforit's picture

LOP is on the rag a lot.  She probably needs to get laid.

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 10:51 | 4848393 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

this looks like the point where (in europe's proportional voting systems) new political parties emerge


pods, what is a statist, exactly? or, better, what is not "statism"? honest question, the American political vocabulary is terribly confusing. and unique

would an exponent of a movement against a standing professional army (back to militia) be still a statist? or do you have to be a complete anarchist (best anarcho-capitalist) to stop being a statist? or is it a matter of degrees, like more or less state? were the Founding Fathers statists? is a constitution a statist document?

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 10:58 | 4848430 Spastica Rex
Spastica Rex's picture

It's mostly an epithet, because this is America and our thought processes are... stunted.

However, one could look at a spectrum of value for personal autonomy on one end, and group cohesion on the other end, and place a marker, arbitrarily of course, somewhere on the line while proclaiming, "On this, side are the libertarians and on this side are the statists."

I've known and worked with those I would unhesitatingly call statists, and they all had the common qualities of believing that they were representatives of the common good, that they knew what was best for others, and that they should be empowered to enforce it.

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 11:09 | 4848500 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

I disagree with stunted thought processes. give the average American a bit of space to make a buck, and you'll see that his thought processes are more than fine (I've hired enough Americans in my life to know that first-hand)

yet something I can't say to an American face to face (wonders of anonymous blogs): why the fuck do you still have only two fucking choices? in all facets of American life more choices is better, yet when it comes to politics... crickets

you have the fucking oldest political voting system of the whole world, with the exception of the Brits. and they somehow still manage to have more than two parties

and you constantly use the wierdest, unexplainable political terms, like "statist" or "globalist". imho it's a lack of interest

ask the French (cue French haters): they are currently in their Fifth Republic. when was the last Amendment to your constitution? (no, this has nothing to do with the other inane discussion about "living constitution")

imo you have a fossil political system

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 11:15 | 4848526 Flakmeister
Flakmeister's picture

The Founding Fathers knew that factionalism was to be the bane of the system. Unfortunately it is very difficult to do anything about it while still upholding the Constitution...

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 11:24 | 4848573 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

Flakmeister, you are either having a very bad day or you are a perfect example of what I'm trying to explain. you are practically going back to George Washington

how many times did America amend it's constitution? for criminy, once it was even amended in order to ban alcohol, and then a second time to allow alcohol again

I'm quite sure that when the Whigs were the first party in the country the same discussion was cut short by "very difficult... while upholding..."

where are the Whigs, now?

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 11:34 | 4848614 Dr. Engali
Dr. Engali's picture

The reason we only have two parties is because they are in reality just one party. This is easily proved by the fact both parties will join together to co-opt and destroy any attempt at forming another option. Look at how the Occupy wallstreet movement and the tea party movement has been treated by both sides. They are treated like plagues because they disrupt the status quo.

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 11:43 | 4848659 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

co-optation is the first principle of a republic. actually, co-optation is a good thing more often than not. and in fact the above statistics could be used to make the case that the two parties absorbed Occupy and Tea Party... and are now more distant from each other because of this

yet again, show me where in the constitution is stated that you have to use the current voting system. hell, redistricting is constitutional, isn't it?

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 13:08 | 4849094 silentboom
silentboom's picture

"statistics could be used to make the case that the two parties absorbed Occupy and Tea Party"

Except that the Tea Party just ousted the second most powerful Republican in Washinton who walked out with his mouth hanging open.  It's not just him either, many more are under threat or being replaced.  Keep watching, this last win was very big.

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 11:38 | 4848635 Flakmeister
Flakmeister's picture

Parties die because they become irrelevant and are swept away by the tides of history... In the case of the Whigs their bane was slavery which split them and the Civil War finished them off....

The Republican-Tea Party split is similar.... 

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 16:42 | 4850074 marathonman
marathonman's picture

I believe Canada had a similar falling out between the Republican-Tea Party types not so long ago.  They split the party and let the liberals to have their way.  The liberals eventually ran the thing in the ground and had to make some changes because they owned the whole government.  Eventually the Canadian Republican and Tea Party types made nice and came together and look at the Canucks now!

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 11:23 | 4848572 Spastica Rex
Spastica Rex's picture

I stand by stunted. Cleverness in the making of money is a small subset of intelligence, and it has nothing to do with wisdom, which is kind of what you're really talking about.

"Statism" isn't a particularly old word, I'll grant that, but it's transparently descriptive. It can also be used as a verbal cudgel, which is a very American form of language usage.

Oh, and ossified could be used instead of fossil, which takes as right back to stunted.


Thu, 06/12/2014 - 13:35 | 4849225 MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

I find that making money has an incredible amount to do with wisdom; the wisest people I know make the most reasonable decisions and, thus, refrain from participating in the idiotic business plans that end up being successful (generally in ways completely unanticipated to the entrepreneur) and lead to substantial wealth.

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 11:00 | 4848437 yrbmegr
yrbmegr's picture

To me, a "statist" is someone whose reflex for solving a community (e.g. national) problem turns to government.  Example:  "The government should do something."

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 11:28 | 4848594 XitSam
XitSam's picture

If government is the answer, it was a stupid question.

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 11:05 | 4848472 greatbeard
greatbeard's picture

I found this to be a good take:

In political science, statism is the belief that the state should control either economic or social policy, or both, to some degree. Statism is effectively the opposite of anarchism.


Thu, 06/12/2014 - 11:17 | 4848535 pods
pods's picture

Well, everything is in degrees I guess. To an anarchist, any organization would be considered statism. 

The founding fathers understood certain things, but the constitution definitely opened the door for statism to flourish.  Oddly enough it was Hamilton who argued that including the bill of rights in the constitution would confuse the purpose of the document.  And he was right.  The constitution was a framework declaring what the federal government could do.  By including the BOR, it muddled the purpose of it.  Now we as individuals speak about being permitted to do this or that by the constitution when in reality, the constitution was about certain functions delegated to the federal government, and was not a constraint on the people.

My definition of a statist is one who agrees with the idea of using an organization to effect an outcome that they as an individual cannot achieve themselves. They use the power of the state to achieve what they cannot through non coersive methods.



Thu, 06/12/2014 - 11:32 | 4848613 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

excellent answer, can't fault anything about that. yet if my history knowledge about the US does not betray me, the Founding Fathers enacted tons and tons of tariffs, making the US one of the most trade protectionist countries of the world, and this for at least 100 years

isn't that too using the power of the state constraining the people? I'm asking because of the "incoming" revelations from the still secret trade talks between US & EU

I'm sure I'll be attacked here as statist and protectionist, as soon as we'll discuss it on ZH

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 11:46 | 4848669 NoWayJose
NoWayJose's picture

I would argue that it is NOT the Bill of Rights, but that the Constitution has been corrupted by liberal judges who can overturn the wishes of both voters and their elected representatives.  Judges now think they have the power to write laws, force spending by companies and taxpayers, and re-interpret the entire Constitution. 

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 12:18 | 4848832 pods
pods's picture

Well the idea that the constitution can be used to constrain the people it taking the inverse of the BOR. So the BOR actually provided the idea that the constitution permits the individual to do certain things, instead of restraining the servant government.  That is the entire reason for putting in the 9th amendment.  Of course you never hear of that one do you?



Thu, 06/12/2014 - 13:37 | 4849238 MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

That is a terrible reading of the constitution...  take for example, the second amendment, it simply acknowledges our natural right to bear arms...  it doesn't grant us the right to do anything.  People cannot reasonably confuse this issue...  if they state otherwise, then they have something to sell.

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 16:49 | 4850095 marathonman
marathonman's picture

I think at the time the Federalists realized that the constitution of 1789 was a power ratchet.  It would take time to eat away at the safe guards built into it, but eventually it would allow the new Republic to look a lot like the British Empire.  I don't believe the Federalists were fools.  They were human and jammed through a framework that would give them all the power that power hungry politicos like Hamilton, Lincoln, Wilson, Roosevelt could wring out of it.  It was a power ratchet.  One click at a time....

Fri, 06/13/2014 - 02:55 | 4851750 AnAnonymous
AnAnonymous's picture

If you made a chart that showed liberty vs statism you would have to use a log chart for the statists.

That is all that really matters.

Liberty vs statism? That is 'american' framing.

State is opposed to the absence of State.

Now 'americans' are statist. Not only they are statist, but they are the best statist ever.
The champions of statist.

The State (not even in its modern form) is not an 'american' invention.

As a matter of fact, though, before the rise of 'americanism', there were State societies and state less societies.
This situation endured for thousands of years.

After 237 years of 'americanism' running, 'americans' got rid of stateless societies. Stateless societies simply got crushed by the 'american' fist.

Today, only remain state societies and failed state societies. That is all that remains.

That is all that really matters.

Not a flimsy achievement by 'americans', it should be returned to them.

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 10:44 | 4848378 FieldingMellish
FieldingMellish's picture

What is left when there is no common ground? Divided, we fall.

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 12:58 | 4849040 silentboom
silentboom's picture

Civil war part II.  Let's hope the south wins this time, they have the only decent economies.

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 16:23 | 4849555 Pickleton
Pickleton's picture

Saying it like that, you're sure to attract some mouth foaming leftist that will automatically assume 'the south' or 'states rights' means slavery because that's what leftists did.  recommend that you always add that certain snark so shut them up.  'To the hopelessly protarded droolers, no that does not mean slavery or racism.  Just because you did it that way does not mean I do.  Remember, we are opposition'.  Just a thought....

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 10:44 | 4848379 kchrisc
kchrisc's picture

Stupidity. People should be uniting to bring all those responsible for the destruction of America to the guillotines. Instead they swallowing the "political" bait hook-line-and-sinker and further empowering their enemies the treasonous pols and crats and their thieving masters the banksters.


Thu, 06/12/2014 - 10:52 | 4848398 Spastica Rex
Spastica Rex's picture

Think of the homos, and how they are causing society to rot from within. We can't do anything until we've resolved the REALLY IMPORTANT ISSUES OF OUR TIME.

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 10:55 | 4848415 Flakmeister
Flakmeister's picture

And that damn liberal bias in science...

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 12:55 | 4849028 silentboom
silentboom's picture

A lot of liberal bias in "climate science".

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 13:03 | 4849077 Flakmeister
Flakmeister's picture

Funny how you accept all that science which is convienient and reject on ideological grounds that science which is not...

In other words, you are a shining example of the ignoranti whose science is driven by confirmation bias....

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 14:34 | 4849570 Pickleton
Pickleton's picture

You're a little black yourself Mr Pot.

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 16:39 | 4850060 Flakmeister
Flakmeister's picture

Oh do go on....

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 11:00 | 4848443 Dr. Engali
Dr. Engali's picture

I thought we fixed the homo problem and the really important issue was the trans-genders. I guess I was misinformed.

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 11:05 | 4848470 Spastica Rex
Spastica Rex's picture

Don't get me started.

Ever heard the phrase:

"Happy Holidays?"

That is like number one on my list. I can't tell you how furious I become every time I bait someone into saying that to me.

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 11:10 | 4848505 shovelhead
shovelhead's picture

Schizophrenia is difficult to keep up with. Having rollerskates and learning to do tight circles may help.

I dunno. I mostly don't bother.

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 11:21 | 4848561 Grinder74
Grinder74's picture

So are the pedos getting skipped over?  What about all the Pedophile Prophet WorshippersTM?

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 11:06 | 4848473 kchrisc
kchrisc's picture

Yup, all about priorities.

When homos, abortionists and 'illegals' man armed drones, have active 'kill-lists,' and have NDAA in their backpocket, I'll see them as the enemy, until then my eye is on the DC US criminals.


The homo thing just amazes me. Giving additional power over oneself to a gaggle of criminals because of what a neighbor may or may be doing in his bedroom. Just pure insanity.

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 11:17 | 4848536 Flakmeister
Flakmeister's picture

You do realize that you were poed....



Thu, 06/12/2014 - 10:45 | 4848383 Spitzer
Spitzer's picture

Its all crap and Im a guy that doesn't typically believe in conspiracy. The unipolar Anglo American axis is in place.


Whether is Obama in place of Bush or Hollande in place of Sarkozy, nothing changes. These guys all answer to higher powers.  Hollande is just a war mongering keynesian corporatist crony like the rest of them.

Putin is the only counter balance to the Keynesian corporatists.

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 11:28 | 4848588 Winston of Oceania
Winston of Oceania's picture

The permanent prez is an answer to nothing. Russia is as corrupt as any other olgarchy run state.

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 16:24 | 4849579 Pickleton
Pickleton's picture

is the only counter balance


dumber things are seldom asserted when talking about a politician.

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 10:45 | 4848384 JRobby
JRobby's picture

Divide and conquer

As old as the Simean race.

The timing is the thing to look at as the manipulations to ensure this skimming ground would be used up by 2015 began 30+ years ago.

1913 to 1980 - build it up

1981 to 2015 - destroy it.


Thu, 06/12/2014 - 13:05 | 4849082 Flakmeister
Flakmeister's picture

If that is indeed true, then the only conclusion is that Reagan was the frontman....

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 10:45 | 4848385 Robot Traders Mom
Robot Traders Mom's picture

Divide people. The last thing a government (especially ours) wants is the people united against them. That being said, there really is no difference in the two parties, as ZH'ers know...

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 10:50 | 4848389 Spastica Rex
Spastica Rex's picture

A captain should endeavour with every art to divide the forces of the enemy, either by making him suspicious of his men in whom he trusted, or by giving him cause that he has to separate his forces, and, because of this, become weaker.

- Machiavelli

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 10:54 | 4848410 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

"there really is no difference in the two parties"

there is no difference insofar as voters are usually very happy with their congressman, right? (btw, why are there only two parties?)

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 11:00 | 4848438 Spastica Rex
Spastica Rex's picture

No shades of gray, With us or against us. Pick a side.

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 11:02 | 4848452 yrbmegr
yrbmegr's picture

"why are there only two parties?"  Probably has something to do with Bilderberg.

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 11:15 | 4848525 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

I'm sure you meant some humour there. yet the Bilderberg meetings are full with euro-conservatives, euro-liberals and euro-socialists (and some greens, too). and of course Americans

nope, you can't blame Bilderberg for that, imho

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 11:42 | 4848654 shovelhead
shovelhead's picture

Not to mention that little tiff in the US about Federalism vs States Rights while the ink was still wet on the Constitution.

Had to add more ink.

Seems almost silly today as very few champion it's value and cause.

Bilderberg is just a think tank policy lobby group primarily for Europe. "We like this...see that it gets done."

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 10:49 | 4848388 Duffy Duck
Duffy Duck's picture

I'm not sure that in a 2 party oligarchy such as we have, it particularly matters what the rabble think about X or Y. 

Look how much stayed the same as between Bush and Obama - Presidents who, as candidates, could hardly have seemed more different.

The illusion of choice, and such...



Thu, 06/12/2014 - 12:10 | 4848794 dontgoforit
dontgoforit's picture

It's the human condition - as history has shown over and over.  If we have the Repubs, the Dems, the Tea Party, the Nazi party, the communist party, the bildeberg party, the birthday party - it all ends up the same: with fat cats scheming how they will hold on to the people's money and power.  It is always the same, always.  And it has always been true: Man cannot serve two masters; he will either love the one and dispise the other, or hate the one and love the other - Jesus.  Who's yo' daddy?  God or mammon?  That's the question we all have to ask ourselves.  Governements and corporations and 'parties' or 'groups' don't seem to answer that question - they choose to ignore it.  At their own peril and the peril of their people.

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 10:50 | 4848390 russwinter
russwinter's picture

Mind Control: Used for Carrying Out State Agendas:


Thu, 06/12/2014 - 10:50 | 4848392 Dr. Engali
Dr. Engali's picture

The divide and conquer powers that be have things shaping up nicely for an uncivil war.

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 11:19 | 4848549 shovelhead
shovelhead's picture

I'm not sure an Army where half run forward and half run backward is much of an improvement.

I think the Fucked level will have to go to Defcon 2 before a wake up call will be answered.

By then, it may not matter much.

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 10:59 | 4848422 ebworthen
ebworthen's picture

And yet somehow they meet in the middle to bailout banks/insurers/corporations, pass or not stop Obamacare, waste money handing it out to Ukraine and African Warlords, allowing the N.S.A. to trample the Constitution, and passing legislation so they don't have to obey laws their constituents do. 

Reminds me of that old country song "She got the gold mine, I got the shaft."

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 11:00 | 4848439 FlyinHigh
FlyinHigh's picture

Am I one of them? Or one of those? Does it really matter at this point? LOL We're all Fucked in the end. No one ever gets out alive.

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 11:01 | 4848446 Prometheus_Goldman
Prometheus_Goldman's picture

Hmm.... Not preaching, buuuuuutt Mark, 3:25 looks pretty appropo!

Tell me I'm wrong!

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 11:18 | 4848454 EffexZoxStyle
EffexZoxStyle's picture

Yes, this is correct. Sheeples get more brainwashed - Govt critics get more awake. Alex Jones keeps saying this for the last 2 years and he's on it dead straight.


Also the Republican shift to conservative is definitely the libertarian influence and awakening to NWO, while the sheeples are way more likely to be on the average democrat progressive side or modern liberal, they also hijacked the terms, thomas jefferson was a liberal, so we call him a classic liberal so we can distinguish from these modern nwo fake liberals who are actually authoritarians.


Average democrats, hardcore progressives, are the kinds of people that would believe the establishment bull about constitutionalists being the supposable terrorists.





Thu, 06/12/2014 - 11:05 | 4848463 youngman
youngman's picture

Those that have a job....those that live off of the government


those that speak english...and those that speak Spanish o Urbonics

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 11:09 | 4848496 EffexZoxStyle
EffexZoxStyle's picture

Many people who know the NWO can't get good jobs, as the situations vary, they may have been unfairly treated and have som other problem they couldn't have an influence on before, so you can't make such simplified grouping throwing all kinds of cases in the same bucket.


Thu, 06/12/2014 - 11:07 | 4848477 rydog1220
rydog1220's picture

Well I believe this chart either shows the possible libertarian awakening in people or most likely people spewing out factoids they hear from MSNBC and Fox News, if it is the latter then this country will become a total shithole thousands times worse then it is now 

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 11:09 | 4848479 Notsobadwlad
Notsobadwlad's picture

MAYBE THE CHARTS WOULD MAKE SOME SENSE IF IT INCLUDED THE LARGEST POLITICAL DEMOGRAPHIC > INDEPENDENT. Of course, Pew, being simply a propaganda arm for the status quo cannot even admit that independents actually exist, more or less that they are now in the majority.

IMO, the majority of mainstream does not give a damn about Republicans (who now appear to be progressives in disguise) and Democrats (who are the balls to wall progressives).

They are working toward the same goal: Tear it down so that they can rebuild it in their own image... and that is both disgusting and frightening (as it is intended to be).

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 11:09 | 4848497 quikwit
quikwit's picture

red team blue team, red team blue team, red team blue team #falsehardchoices

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 11:16 | 4848529 Grinder74
Grinder74's picture

"Homosexuality should be discouraged by society" = trending down.

By all means, let's just continue to ignore what happened to the Greek and Roman empires. Sexual decadence and depravity never adversely affects a society.

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 11:22 | 4848564 Dr. Engali
Dr. Engali's picture

Seriously? Everything that's fucked up in this world and that's what you are worried about? 

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 12:46 | 4848971 silentboom
silentboom's picture

True, almost all of us are getting fucked in the just seems that some poeple are starting to love it.

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 14:03 | 4849404 FrankDrakman
FrankDrakman's picture

Doc, I understand and agree with you - it's not the CAUSE of any problem we are having.

I do agree with the OP in part though; it is a SYMPTOM of a society that's lost its way, just as our increased acceptance/legalization of drugs, easy bankruptcy (and no shame), easy welfare (and no shame), and easy teen/unmarried mother pregnancy (and no shame) all are.

A vibrant and growing society values hard work, forebearance, rectitude, and honesty. A decaying society values license and libidiousness, mocks the just and hard working, and in its jaded desire for ever more sensation, elevates and idolizes the conman ("wolf of wall street", Elliot Spitzer, Bambam), the freak (Gaga, Cyrus, anyone 'transgendered'), and the libertine (Kardashians, Hoffman, Winehouse). We've seen the story told endlessly, Athens vs. Sparta, Rome vs. the barbarians, Louis XVI, Europe in the 'Roaring 20's', etc. Whenever the ruling class gets hopelessly decadent, the society over all is due for the high jump.

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 14:56 | 4849640 Pickleton
Pickleton's picture

mmmmmmm..  Worried about pole smokers and clam clankers getting their freaks on, no.  Who gives a shit about that.  But then, that's not what the gaystapo agenda is for.  You, as a Dr or, someone that stayed at the Holiday Inn Express last night, should be thinking a little deeper.

There is nothing in the leftist agenda that's meant to unite anyone.  It's meant to divde, sub-divide, polarize and conquer. The left undeniably uses the gay agenda (that in reality has no place in govt) as one attack vector to destroy the stability and prosperity of the real nuclear family unit to breed leftist, govt dependent voters and for that, you should be concerned.


Thu, 06/12/2014 - 11:25 | 4848580 CoMooter
CoMooter's picture

No trouble here, my guess is that the public's opinions were trending about the same in Spain around 1927-1928...

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 11:32 | 4848612 TrulyStupid
TrulyStupid's picture

What bullshit if there are only two points of view.. What of those who have opted out of the Red/Blue MSM paradigm? 

Both parties support the bankster/war profiteer ponzi...What do we call those who oppose it?

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 11:43 | 4848660 swmnguy
swmnguy's picture

"What do we call those who oppose it?"  Nothing.  We don't acknowledge their existence at all.

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 11:56 | 4848727 shovelhead
shovelhead's picture

Candidates for re-education camps.

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 11:59 | 4848746 rydog1220
rydog1220's picture

You would be on the NSA list to get drone striked obviously, we are "extremists"

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 11:33 | 4848618 swmnguy
swmnguy's picture

This study can't even define "Liberal" and "Conservative."  That says quite a lot.  As a matter of fact, it gets close to the truth that it was marketing people hired by the Democratic and Republican parties who set up "Liberal" and "Conservative" as ideological poles on a spectrum.  The two parties are not ideological, so to keep people interested and invested, they had to make up terms they could define however they wanted to, to make it appear there were inherent differences between the parties.  They might as well have picked "Tastes Great" and "Less Filling," for all the relevance of the terms.

Both parties (or, to play along, ideologies) assume the same basic abstract financial system.  Both assume a huge military.  Both assume a level of corporate political power and control.   They differ as to which constituency should be more heavily favored; right now, the Democrats (Liberals?) favor Finance, while the Republicans (Conservatives?) favor oil and coal.

Neither party will allow any discussion of the "box" in which they keep their range of perspectives.  Therefore, the vast majority of Americans regard our current socio-economic system the way we might assume a fish regards water; it is everywhere and surrounds them and they just assume it without being able to think about it.

If you're asked if you want to be poked in the eye with a knitting needle or punched in the stomach, and your response, "I'd like to be patted gently on the back" is completely ignored, that is hardly a representation of all available options.  Same goes for "Democrat" and "Republican," and even more absurdly, "Liberal" and "Conservative."  They're all a bunch of Fascists with an overlay of classical liberal  cultural references.  They just differ in to whom they're pandering right now for votes.  Wait a generation; they'll flip poles yet again.

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 11:42 | 4848653 NoWayJose
NoWayJose's picture

Maybe the people are moving to conservatives, the the RINOS are surfing the Blue Wave...  At least until they run into a Brat Reef...

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 11:54 | 4848715 stonecoldbrokei...
stonecoldbrokeinthemiddleofthewinter's picture

They left out  the "Owns at Least One Gun" chart

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 12:02 | 4848758 crzyhun
crzyhun's picture

Depending on the question you can get any result.

1. Depends on what the def of is is.

2. Does this dress make my butt look big?

3. When sir did you stop kicking the dog?

4. What is  an independent?

5. Will you love me tomorrow?

6. What is the difference between finished and completed?


Thu, 06/12/2014 - 12:04 | 4848774 messymerry
messymerry's picture

Hell, I could have drawn all that with my finger in a beer puddle... ;-)

This is some really scary stuff and it has broader implications than those overtly covered. I believe that if we looked at charts depicting pro vs. anti current government philosophy that those charts would look largely the same.

The nation is polarizing into pro and anti State camps, and the Statists are running scared (and arming up). This is a very dangerous time for us here in the U.S.

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 12:12 | 4848805 ClowardPiven2016
ClowardPiven2016's picture

gee whiz....I wonder if the fact virtually every time Obama speaks he chastises Republicans has anything to do with this?

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 15:05 | 4849695 Pickleton
Pickleton's picture

It's not Obama. 

Honest question here.  Can you name when any leftist ever didn't blame basically everything on a republican?


And yes, I realize that the two parties are mostly a hodge podge of bullshit artists with little difference, but in the end it's the right that is always publicly blamed.


Thu, 06/12/2014 - 12:13 | 4848811 novictim
novictim's picture

This is DEEPLY flawed analysis. You should question the agenda behind this piece of crap. Much has been written about the overlapping populist interests growing in the USA so how could the author miss this?

POPULISM is nowhere referenced here.
The Progressive Left and the Libertarian Right OVERLAP on:

1) Trade policy- Both the left and the right reject secret trade deals written by corporate multinationals. They want open deals that the public can way in on. Remember Ross Perot?

2) NSA/Government Spying- Both the left and right want the 4th Amendment honored and both want to see blanket, warrantless data collection stopped.
Both BELIEVE in the 4th Amendment: "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

The left and right ask the question of our elected officials: “When you had the chance to stand up for Americans’ privacy, did you?”

3) Both the left and right want to limit money in politics. Both want to see open transparency so that we can see how much the Chinese are indirectly bankrolling the elections in the USA. Both believe money is NOT speech and that Corporations are NOT people.

4) Those who serve in Congress should be banned from lobbying. Period.

5) Both the left and right believe we need to stop unnecessary foreign interventions.

6) Both the Progressive left and Populist right agree that income inequality is a threat to our countries political system and its economy.

Take this article, Durden, and fix it. Do that now.

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 12:30 | 4848892 flacorps
flacorps's picture

Populism is the most frightening thing in the world to the elites. They will deride it as falling under the spell of a demagogue whenever anyone espousing it gets any traction.

Then they will seize on something that non-club member said in order to destroy him or her. Or that person will simply be shot, poisoned, plane-crashed or otherwise gotten out of the way. The list of victims is endless.

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 12:54 | 4849024 novictim
novictim's picture

We should all remember that POPULISM is not an inherently "GOOD" thing or "BAD" thing.


Populism is simply the phenomena where the people across a country start recognizing their common interest, whatever those interests might be.

Populism also requires leaders to act as the nucleating agent that brings the peeps together as a movement. 

Populism is capable of being crushed.  The uprising in Tiananmen square was one example where an authoritarian government using a legion of undercover operatives was able to seek out and silence each potential populist leader before the events of 1989 could be repeated.  The people in China still have their collectively held populist aspirations (Freedom, Democracy, Economic and Environmental fairness) but no leader is allowed to emerge for them to gain focus and power.

Thu, 06/12/2014 - 14:52 | 4849641 malek
malek's picture

Then it was an accident the elite rode Obummer on a wave of populism into office, to the utter disbelief of Billary?

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