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Summing Up Last Night's IRS "Lost Emails" Hearing (In 1 Cartoon)

Tyler Durden's picture




 

We sat, we listened, and we could not quite believe our ears...

 

 

Source: Cagle

 

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Tue, 06/24/2014 - 09:17 | 4888836 Jack of All Trades
Jack of All Trades's picture

The more corrupt a society the more numerous its laws.

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 09:22 | 4888852 infotechsailor
infotechsailor's picture

what about their exchange servers? Did they not get backups of their mail stores or exchange databases? 

What kind of IT department relies on local hard drives for mail storage. anyone in IT knows that emails aren't stored locally, except for PST archives. All emails should be on backup tapes of the email servers. Although going back to 2011, I doubt a government department has the funds to keep ALL emails for that many years. 

 

Govt IT budgets get slashed everywhere. Meanwhile, in the desert's of Utah...

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 09:24 | 4888871 Four chan
Four chan's picture

the accused party who is in charge of the irs saw to it their contract was not renewed.

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 09:30 | 4888908 jbvtme
jbvtme's picture

the fed and irs are coming under much scrutiny lately.  wouldn't their functions be better handled in a place like brussels?

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 09:35 | 4888946 Bindar Dundat
Bindar Dundat's picture

Oh wait it already is....

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 09:47 | 4888988 y3maxx
y3maxx's picture

...If You can't get away with Lies, try "Baffling'em with bullshit" next...

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 10:47 | 4889245 RevRex
RevRex's picture

The Socialist Semite Democrat Media reserves it's outrage for Republicans, but "both parties are the same"

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 11:05 | 4889322 Save_America1st
Save_America1st's picture

@infotechsailor

I watched that bullshit testimony live last night.  That guy literally sat there and tried to convince everyone that it was PC hard drives and deliberately did not speak of anything regarding the Exchange servers (and their numerous backups and raid arrays, etc.).  I was laughing.

But then Issa actually nailed the guy on it and specifically asked him if he expected everyone to believe they didn't use any kind of Microsoft Exchange servers and the various back up systems.

The guy kinda choked on that question and admitted that the IRS does use Exchange servers and backs everything up.  EXCEPT...the fucker then said that due to limitations in the IRS's budget, they weren't able to store data longer than a few years because it would cost 10 to 30 million dollars to upgrade their servers (which is total bullshit). 

Then Issa says (paraphrased), "so the IRS has an IT budget of 1.8 BILLION dollars a year, and you're telling us, you expect us all to believe that you're not able to budget 30 million dollars to upgrade IRS servers in order to retain critical information that the tax payers would rely on you to store?"   It was pretty much something like that.

Then Issa says (again, paraphrased), "The American tax payes are expected to keep records forever, and it's cricitcal they do because the IRS says they have to.  So why should the American tax payers bother to keep records if the IRS doesn't feel it's important to use tax payer dollars wisely enough to store critical information...."  etc., etc.

The guy was slammed at that point...it was pretty funny.  I think most of this shit is just WWF-style theater for the sheeple (the very few) who even know what's going on and care to listen in.  I don't trust Issa who is a known criminal, car thief, arsonist, burglar, and patent thief...and yet he's the head of House Oversight and Government Reform???   What a fucking joke that is.

That's like putting the fox in charge of the hen house.  So althought this stuff is of the most serious (and impeachable) nature, where many people could and should be going to jail for a very long time.  I don't believe one bit that anything will come of it.  It's a scandal that will be used to distract from many other things and then in the end it will just get swept under the rug, washed away, obama will leave office, and the next round of WWF-style political theater will begin.

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 11:20 | 4889401 V in PA
V in PA's picture

It's a scandal that will be used to distract from many other things and then in the end it will just get swept under the rug, washed away, obama will leave office, and the next round of WWF-style political theater will begin.

 

Worth repeating.

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 11:37 | 4889478 Citxmech
Citxmech's picture

<---  Yes, I have lost email files.

<---  No, I have never lost any emails.

Just a quick survey out of curiosity.

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 11:48 | 4889522 madcows
madcows's picture

Emails are NOT HELD ON A Personal COMPUTER.  They are on a server and we all log in to get them.  AND, the Server is backed up.  B/c IT people aren't fucking stupid.

Subpeona the fucking IT company, and their servers, and put this shit to bed.

I assume that will happen after the november election, so that there are possible sufficient repugnicans in the senate to impeach and imprison.

If that doesn't happen, I may go apeshit, reject the authority of the federal government, and spend my life in jail.  I've had enough.  I can't revolt w/o some jackboot shooting me, so I may as well make them prosecute me.  Go to hell Fed.Gov.  You do not have my consent to govern me.

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 13:37 | 4889879 Gaius Frakkin' ...
Gaius Frakkin&#039; Baltar's picture

I often wonder how ridiculous the theater becomes on any particular issue before people storm DC. Will there be excuses like “I shit myself and wiped my ass with them.” Then the “strongly worded” response from the "opposition" can be “Shitting yourself is no excuse.”

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 13:42 | 4889916 Chief KnocAHoma
Chief KnocAHoma's picture

If BO wanted to spare us all the agony of these hearings he could pardon witnesses for any crimes the minute Goudy or Issa decide to call them to testify. 

It sure would save a lot of time and hastle. While he's at it he should pardon himself for any crime he has done, or might do, and name himself Emperial Ruler of the World and King of All The Lego Land.

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 14:20 | 4890048 Gaius Frakkin' ...
Gaius Frakkin&#039; Baltar's picture

That would defeat its purpose of diversion and subterfuge.

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 13:48 | 4889944 Gold Eyed Cat
Gold Eyed Cat's picture
Neither Red team nor Blue team want these emails made public .  They would only expose that both Democraps and establishment Republicans feared Tea Party expansion and ordered the IRS to restrain them.  It's a nice little bit of theatre they've arranged for us though.  Everyone loves seeing the IRS fake flogged!
Tue, 06/24/2014 - 12:44 | 4889739 XenoFrog
XenoFrog's picture

Every single e-mail I send at work is backed up in mutiple places because Federal law demands we keep multiple copies for long-term storage.

 

It was astonishing to me that he tried to pull that, "It's too expensive to store e-mail on a server" bullshit. It's much much more expensive to try and keep hard copies of millions of e-mails. Who the fuck does he think he is fooling?

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 20:24 | 4891426 Lost Word
Lost Word's picture

I read somewhere, in the internet news media, of course,

that the Government is required to ALSO keep hard copies of emails.

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 14:33 | 4890102 Totentänzerlied
Totentänzerlied's picture

I've lost plenty of emails. Whether or not they could be recovered (or simply read) from the relevant servers is an entirely unrelated issue.

The relevant missing harddrives have been zeroed out, wiped with every algorithm around, professionally degaussed, and crushed into dust.

EDIT:

And the metal dust of the platters was then scattered at sea at an undisclosed location somewhere in the Indian ocean.

Wed, 06/25/2014 - 22:55 | 4896487 PrettySkulls
PrettySkulls's picture

"And the metal dust of the platters was then scattered at sea at an undisclosed location somewhere in the Indian ocean."

 

Theyre right next to Osama Bin Ladens Body.

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 11:43 | 4889499 Save_America1st
Save_America1st's picture

the real thing to keep an eye on is that they're building a proxy Al Quaida army in Iraq, Syria, etc. under the name "ISIS".  Same fuckers, same banner flag, different name.  They're using them to fight their proxy wars in the MENA countries to further destabilize the region which very well could lead to WWIII.  If not it will still be war in perpetuity and it will be used against the American people and patriots to further take away our rights and freedom as this corrupt government poses as our "protectors" against radical Islam and radical "right wingers" who they are now labeling as "domestic terrorists" and just as bad as ISIS. 

That's the big deal in the long run for us.  Plus they're doing everything they can to destabilize America in the South by letting illegals overrun the border and overwhelm the system.  They're using them to purposely wipe out the United States borders and one day Canada will be next.  The Globalists want to destroy America and build a North American Union between Canada, the U.S., and Mexico or some bullshit like that. 

They're forcing us into a sick and twisted 3rd world wasteland as fast as they can before time runs out and the sheeple wake up and start to really fight back. 

I wouldn't be surprised if the government false flags a small tacitcal nuke in some U.S. city.  Obama already mentioned Manhattan, Lindsey Graham already mentioned South Carolina (Charleston), and now Dick Cheney has come out announcing his "worries" that something bigger and deadlier than 9/11 is going to happen.

They're turning up the fear mongering big-time now and just overwhelming us and the system from all angels.  Then they'll do something to set off a major crisis and use it against us to bring in Martial Law or even worse. 

It's coming folks...we won't know when or where, but we all need to be prepared for whatever it will be and to recognize it for what it will be:  a false flag directed at Americans in order to bring in more authoritarianism and to wipe out what's left of our Constitutional rights.

Could be a bomb or it could be a massive financial crisis shutting down the banking system, or it could just be WWIII all together...who knows. 

Be ready, because they're not going to just stop now, are they???  Are they just going to give up after all this time now that they're so close???  No they are not.  So be ready for it.

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 12:22 | 4889665 dontgoforit
dontgoforit's picture

Servants of Satan?  There are signs, and more than a few dead people have been seen walking.  This is fish or cut bait time?  We'll see.  We are all so easily manipulated because we are all on the outside looking in and inside is full of smoke and mirrors.

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 20:03 | 4891367 Tompooz
Tompooz's picture

"There are signs, and more than a few dead people have been seen walking. "

 

Sandy Hook children?

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 12:33 | 4889699 Zymurguy
Zymurguy's picture

""the real thing to keep an eye on is that they're building a proxy Al Quaida army in Iraq, Syria, etc. under the name "ISIS".""

Agreed... prior to just a few weeks ago - never heard of these fuckers.

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 12:52 | 4889753 SamAdams
SamAdams's picture

@SaveAmerica1st

You are correct sir, in both of your preceding posts.  Succinct... Best guess is before the next financial crash due before 2017...

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 13:43 | 4889925 _disengage_
_disengage_'s picture

Don't forget that PNAC laid out the whole "new pearl harbor" before 9/11. PNAC is run by the Kagans.

Victoria Newland (Noodleman) is married to a Kagan brother. She stirred shit up in Ukraine.

Kimberly Kagan is married to the other Kagan brother. She is pushing hard the ISIS storyline. She is also the President of the Institute for the study of War...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_Kagan
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Kagan

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 14:22 | 4890071 conscious being
conscious being's picture

Plus a whole bunch.

FYI, I can't up vote your comment.

NSA gremlins?

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 14:24 | 4890080 thorsmjollnir
thorsmjollnir's picture

It's as Glenn Greenwald says, "the system is setup to placate outrage with symbolic gestures."  These hearings are merely for show.

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 13:08 | 4889813 ShrNfr
ShrNfr's picture

Go read about the Sonasoft product. It goes out to the Exchange Server, pulls the email, and puts a "stub" in its place. It then compresses and archives the email itself elsewhere. If a person accesses the stub, the software reverses the process. Net, net, the storage that the Exchange Server has to provide is very, very small. The concept of "We want you to move your emails off the server to conserve space" is total and complete and absolute horseshit. They simply did not take up that much space. The archive was supposed to exist for compliance reasons. It still should unless they have destroyed it. I would be doing serious time if I said anything like that to a federal official.

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 15:56 | 4890503 PiratePiggy
PiratePiggy's picture

How many emails do you think will fit on a 4 Terrabye drive?

 

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822178338

 

It cost $150.00 and 4 TB stored a gigabye of emails for each of 32768 IRS employees.  How many employess does the IRS have and how many gigabytes of email per year do they need?

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 09:25 | 4888873 TeamDepends
TeamDepends's picture

Can't wait for April 15th when every American had better, by God, be saying:  After eating my hard-drive, the dog tore up all my receipts.  So I'm entitled to a full refund and then some.

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 09:28 | 4888896 CH1
CH1's picture

Americans disobeying their masters? Please!

Just say Baaaa, gringo.

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 10:43 | 4889228 mtl4
Tue, 06/24/2014 - 09:49 | 4889003 NoDebt
NoDebt's picture

You forget your place, Mr. Blutarsky.  The IRS would definitely do more than just put you on double-secret probation for that little move.

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 10:27 | 4889171 madcows
madcows's picture

This story is more than a year old.  Did you pay your taxes this past season?  I thought so.  Forfiture of your freedom, home, salary, investments and livelihood is difficult thing to do.  Are you willing to give up everything in order to combat Ms. Lerner and Co.?

I remind you, the IRS has adsolute power and zero accountability.  They are the stormtroopers.

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 11:39 | 4889491 Jack of All Trades
Jack of All Trades's picture

If you refuse to pay unjust taxes, your property will be confiscated. If you attempt to defend your property, you will be arrested. If you resist arrest, you will be clubbed. If you defend yourself against clubbing, you will be shot dead. These procedures are known as the Rule of Law.

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 14:42 | 4890189 NeoLuddite
NeoLuddite's picture

There's a separate law for the Rulers - Then there's the rule of law for the rest of us. Transgression of the "rule of law" may well result in acute lead poisoning or electrocution.

 

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 12:25 | 4889676 dontgoforit
dontgoforit's picture

It's really a ball-buster, isn't it?  Because, if the servers can't be located, what about all the shit the NSA has gathered?  Can that not be 'mined' to get to the Lerner truth?  My guess is they've got so much dirt on so many people they're just covered in a tidal wave of crap and can't figure out if they can use this piece or that because of its relationship to this person or that person.....merry-eff'n-go-round.

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 11:15 | 4889373 edotabin
edotabin's picture

Not good enough. We are supposed to store everything in the cloud

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 13:36 | 4889901 ChiangMai
ChiangMai's picture

Stockman bill allows taxpayers to use same lame excuses as IRS 

 

...Under Stockman’s bill, “The Dog Ate My Tax Receipts Act,” taxpayers who do not provide documents requested by the IRS can claim one of the following reasons:

 

1.         The dog ate my tax receipts

2.         Convenient, unexplained, miscellaneous computer malfunction

3.         Traded documents for five terrorists

4.         Burned for warmth while lost in the Yukon

5.         Left on table in Hillary’s Book Room

6.         Received water damage in the trunk of Ted Kennedy’s car

7.         Forgot in gun case sold to Mexican drug lords

8.         Forced to recycle by municipal Green Czar

9.         Was short on toilet paper while camping

10.       At this point, what difference does it make?

 

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 09:28 | 4888895 StarfishPrime
StarfishPrime's picture

First time I heard they didn't have the budget to store emails, I immediately wondered why they don't just store all the emails from key individuals (like all directors, for example) for a much smaller data footprint.. then I remembered this is a .gov entity, and logic like that escapes such entities.

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 09:33 | 4888932 Confused
Confused's picture

Yeah, the IRS didn't have it in their IT budget to increase their server storage, because the money was reallocated to the NSA. 

Simple matter of confusion. Should be a simple matter to deal with. 

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 09:43 | 4888979 Cruel Aid
Cruel Aid's picture

Thats right, the nsa has every email you write including this comment. Surely they have those, or what's the point.

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 09:44 | 4888989 Calmyourself
Calmyourself's picture

1.8 billion IT budget, terabyte of storage $100.00 in the cloud at the most..  Criminal conspiracy with no shame, cloward piven entrenched in the Bureaucracy.  They want us despondent and unable to resist

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 09:49 | 4889009 Bosch
Bosch's picture

Correct

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 10:30 | 4889179 max2205
max2205's picture

That IRS dude seems to be loving fucking with Issa.

 

Someone must have told him he will not go to jail.

 

This govt is stupid....I'd walk up to him and beat him senseless

 

We ahould waterboard the irs folks live on CSpan

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 12:28 | 4889681 dontgoforit
dontgoforit's picture

That shiny little bald head with the cheshire cat grin.  I thought of The Joker.  And yeah, I'd like to give him a couple smacks up side the head too.

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 13:53 | 4889957 Chief KnocAHoma
Chief KnocAHoma's picture

He might as well just flash them a moon and slap his ass like Mini-Me. Or he could lose his temper and wave his arms around and scream "What difference does it make?" like that dude that was Secretary of State... oh what was his name?

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 20:33 | 4891461 Lost Word
Lost Word's picture

Is that Hillary listening to the childrens story next to Obummer in the cartoon above?

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 10:35 | 4889207 dock3511
dock3511's picture

NSA testifies that it DID have Lerner's emails, but a computer crash wiped them out. 

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 13:52 | 4889955 madcows
madcows's picture

the IRS has 90,000 employees, and a 1.8 billion dollar IT budget.  That's 20,000 of IT PER EMPLOYEE.  Really?  They don't have enough IT money to back up Douche Lerner's email?

 

Look, clearly this is a coverup in the nth degree.  The abuse of power and the coverup are both criminal.

If Issa and company are truly interested in getting answers then they'll subpoena the IT company and their servers.  The emails exist somewhere unless they were deliberately destroyed in multiple locations.

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 09:30 | 4888897 jbvtme
jbvtme's picture

moved

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 09:30 | 4888913 Pesky Labrador
Pesky Labrador's picture

Oh you know good and well that anyone who works in IT knows this story is full of holes. This is nothing more than political theater for the sheeple. There all buddies once the doors close.

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 09:43 | 4888969 Anasteus
Anasteus's picture

I'm curious what's gonna happen now. The backup certainly must exist; also the NSA shadow copy should be available on demand.

The congress can ask for both copies - if not provided with any of the copies we can then officially say for certain that the US official bodies do not rule the nation and the nation is governed by unknown invisible conspirators/dictators.

For the rest of the world that would be a clear signal and a proof of dictatorial nature of the USA.

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 10:53 | 4889272 Dolar in a vortex
Dolar in a vortex's picture

The rest of the world sees it much more clearly than 90% of Americans. They (the 90%) still think it's the land of the free and home of the brave.

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 11:47 | 4889519 Save_America1st
Save_America1st's picture

turned into the land of the sheep and home of the slave...unless they wake the fuck up and get ready for the fight that's coming to us all very soon. 

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 09:55 | 4889033 Roll Tide
Roll Tide's picture

We need to get Lerner's hair dresser on the stand.  Lerner spilled the beans to him/her and there is no hair dresser privilege.   Or did Lois do that crazy doo on her own?  She will do it herself when she gets to Leavenworth.

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 10:16 | 4889126 bagehot99
bagehot99's picture

No Government budget has ever been 'slashed', ever, in this history of the world. Are you HIGH?

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 10:20 | 4889146 rainingFrogs
rainingFrogs's picture

Of course the e-mails were not on her hard drive.  This is a smoke screen for the gullible public.  Issa and other members of the committee "investigating" the IRS and Lerner are part of the ruse.   Pure political theater. 

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 10:45 | 4889238 booboo
booboo's picture

I suspect that the red team do not want the emails exposed as they probably were in on the shake down of the Tea Party considering their hatred of them as well.

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 11:42 | 4889500 DavidC
DavidC's picture

The gullible public, as you describe it, knows that this is bullshit - anyone with half a brain KNOWS that e-mails are backed up on servers (note the PLURAL).

DavidC

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 12:53 | 4889765 Gawd
Gawd's picture

Please.....check with the NSA on that

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 12:55 | 4889770 whirling tword ...
whirling tword freedom's picture

The company backing up their exchange server databases needs to produce the tapes.... It's really that simple... To be in the business of doing backups is taken seriously by these businesses... I'm sure they have the tapes.

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 13:42 | 4889922 WeNeedaRealGovt
WeNeedaRealGovt's picture

It was the GOP who slashed staffing at the SEC, most govt agencies, and oh yeah, the IRS.  You ZHerrrrs are just plain too stupid to remember your own party platform.

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 15:54 | 4890482 steelhead23
steelhead23's picture

If the U.S. Congress really, really wants those emails, they should subpoena the NSA.  After all, if we are to pay for a billion dollar server farm to collect and analyze each and every email in the pipeline, the least they could do is make them available to legitimate investigators.

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 09:21 | 4888856 DaddyO
DaddyO's picture

Excellent comment!

You cannot legislate morality!

DaddyO

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 09:26 | 4888876 Pool Shark
Pool Shark's picture

 

 

Every time a law is passed, a moral judgment is being made.

 

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 09:29 | 4888900 CH1
CH1's picture

Every law is an authorization of violence.

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 10:32 | 4889190 pods
pods's picture

Nothing more, nothing less.

pods

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 09:30 | 4888910 Keyser
Keyser's picture

This administration does not need any new laws... Hell, they ignore half of the laws on the books as it is... What needs to be clamped down is the rampant regulations created without representation by the various agencies of the federal government, like the EPA... 

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 09:40 | 4888967 funthea
funthea's picture

Enter, Cass Sunstien.

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 11:30 | 4889446 V in PA
V in PA's picture

Every time a law is passed criminals are created or a void is created(a market is cornered) . And money will be spent hunting them down or filling that void. Who gets that newly spent money is the rub.

 

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 12:49 | 4889750 QQQBall
QQQBall's picture

No - the laws are written in a way that opens them to interpretation. So everytime a law is writen, more power is vested in the arbiter/enforcer

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 09:47 | 4888999 thatthingcanfly
thatthingcanfly's picture

No DaddyO, you're repeating a sound byte without thinking critically about what you're regurgitating.

You absolutely can legislate morality. For instance, a moral code might say, "Thou shalt not steal." The legislated reflection of this might be descriptions of theft, larceny, grand theft, and prescriptions for appropriate punishments for such offenses. "Thou shalt not kill," becomes codified as laws against 1st and 2nd degree murder, negligent homicide, manslaughter, etc.

Where societies go wrong is not in legislating morality, but in legislating SALVATION.

Think of how many laws our congress-critters have enacted that are geared to SAVE US from something. We have laws to save us from alcohol, second-hand smoke, failing to use one's seatbelt, guns, excessive noise from the neighbor's kid's stereo, grass growing too tall in your back yard, and other things that no sane government would consider trying to regulate. These have nothing to do with traditional moral codes. They are the manifestation of a tyrannical nanny-state that, in trying to save its populace from any and all ills, becomes its greatest threat.

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 10:02 | 4889068 pods
pods's picture

It is called "positive law" and a big reason why we are fucked today.

You can codify natural law, which is what common law is.  You cannot legislate morality.  That is positive law.  And why what two adults do in the privacy of their home can be agaist said law. I am not talking about gays either. Man and a woman, married, can break your "moral" law in their bedrooms.

Your problem is that you are conflating morals, which are codes an INDIVIDUAL lives by, with laws, which a society lives by.

Morals in law are why we have sodomy laws, and people being stoned for having sex or tossed into prison for smoking dope.

pods

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 10:18 | 4889130 thatthingcanfly
thatthingcanfly's picture

pods,

You're wrong on all counts. If a society only consisted of one person, your model would work. But when there is a community of people (say a city-state like Athens, or a larger modern-day nation like France (the USA is really too big to be a useful model of how one is supposed to work), the shared cultural history and spirit demand laws that ensconce moral codes into legal codes. Natural law and/or common law are great examples of (sometimes) unwritten manifestations of this.

Your problem is that you think individual rights ALWAYS trump collective rights. There are certain cases when this is true. The individual right to keep and bear arms is one; but one's right to satiate his axe-murdering fetish is not. Therefore, we have laws, which are nothing more (or less) than legislated morality.

You need to read Augustine.

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 10:31 | 4889182 pods
pods's picture

First off there is no such thing as "collective rights" merely privilege, or "civil rights."

Individuals have rights. Rights exist outside of a government.  Collectives have privilege. Sorry if you think that privilege (or coersion in the case of positve law) should trump my rights.

What is this tyrannic claptrap:

"But when there is a community of people (say a city-state like Athens, or a larger modern-day nation like France (the USA is really too big to be a useful model of how one is supposed to work), the shared cultural history and spirit demand laws that ensconce moral codes into legal codes."

If you really truly adhere to this line of thinking, you should have no problems with whatever the collective wishes to do. Or do you put your life (a right) at the whim of the collective?

And don't tell me who to read.  

pods

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 10:49 | 4889259 thatthingcanfly
thatthingcanfly's picture

I absolutely will tell you who to read, because you have got your head up your ass. It's clear there's no point talking to you until you've gotten yourself better educated.

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 11:01 | 4889312 pods
pods's picture

Ahhh, the "I'm not smart enough" to argue with you line. 

You are certainly talking with me, just not refuting my arguments.

pods

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 10:47 | 4889246 DaddyO
DaddyO's picture

The point of my statement is to highlight the fact the all levels of .gov are inserting themselves into even the most sacred apsects of everyday life.

We are seeing the usurpation by the .gov of roles traditionally held by families, couples, churches and a host of other private entities who up until the last 4 decades played the role of educating people to their need to act responsibly and morally.

We can debate whether we're conflating this or wrong about that or the origin of this line of thinking or that philosophy to what end?

Our society has lost its moral compass and the rights of the individual have been displaced by the collectivist view that society i.e democracy trumps all.

I do not adhere to this view and believe in the Contitutional Republic and its premise of a nation of laws, not men or agencies or bearaucrats or any of the other intruding entities who arbitrarily enact laws that supplant the moral responsiblity of the individual for the sake of the collective.

Of these said laws, the nanny state through its injection into private lives, believes it has the right to dictate acceptable behavior in the form of an ever increasing billet of inane and corrupt laws.

The full extrapolation of this can be seen in the recent flashbang in the crib of a toddler in TN.

DaddyO

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 10:52 | 4889269 thatthingcanfly
thatthingcanfly's picture

On that much we can agree. You've articulated my central argument - that legislating salvation is the path of a tyrannical state.

And it's always advertised as "saving the children." You don't hate children, do you? Good. Now vote more of your liberties away.

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 12:15 | 4889644 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

Good debate. "There is no right to privacy."

Is there a right to be secure in one's "personage" however?

Does the Government have the "right" to create madness in a society?

I would argue no...but without any security of the personage (who you in fact are not who you think you are) is the most inalienable right of all.

The internet appears to be being used as a weapon. What you see, hear or "feel" may not be true at all. Yet who exists to protect this? A "freedom from anxiety" or anger.

A freedom from the need for retribution.

All of these things can be "conjured up" and yet because we live in sheer ignorance of "the thing" we simply have way of comprehending the action...even if that action is our own.

Interestingly the law is silent on the totality of this matter. Thomas Jefferson did say in the Declaration of INDEPENDENCE however that you do have Rights...and that AMONG these rights are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

And the preamble to the Constitution is crystal clear...the purpose is law PERIOD is to "form a more perfect union, establish justice, secure domestic tranquility, provide for the COMMON defense, promote the GENERAL welfare and secure the blessings is LIBERTY."

Hence..."this Law is ORDAINED and established"...thus any violation of said law will be met with a JUDGEMENT...either in this world or the next.

Since Christians believe strongly in a "Judgement Day" the theory that "they'll all just stand around and do nothing while we kill them" is a dangerous point of view.

The fact of the matter is honesty is allowed in the system. That to be truthful to the best of ones ability does not mean "the maximum punishment is to be meted out."

Build a big enough Army and you will see truth.

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 09:21 | 4888857 PartysOver
PartysOver's picture

But will anything change?  I seriously doubt it.

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 09:25 | 4888880 XitSam
XitSam's picture

Laws would apply to everyone. The Obama administration is quite clearly saying it can do whatever it wants. This is truly scary.

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 09:32 | 4888918 madcows
madcows's picture

What I find scary is that nothing is done.  the republicans are useless.  What is the point of a two party system when one half doesn't hold the other accountable.  Boner is pathetic. 

Give me Cruz, Paul and Gowdy as the next republican group of leaders.  Boner and McConnell are spineless.

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 09:35 | 4888944 Confused
Confused's picture

Two party system? What are we talking about again? 

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 09:43 | 4888980 tonyw
tonyw's picture

a simple system to keep simple folk believing they have some hope and can change things.

 

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 10:58 | 4889299 Zymurguy
Zymurguy's picture

The two party system is THEM vs. US - once we get enough to figure that out we can change things in this country for the better.  THEY have eliminated the ability for US to leverage the governance of our country via political means - THEY have made our votes practially useless.  There is only one thing remaining for US to do and until we have the numbers we have to sit at wait patiently for others to wake-the-fuck-up.

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 10:57 | 4889296 El Vaquero
El Vaquero's picture

While I don't have any dirt on Paul and Gowdy, Cruz is married to a Goldman Sachs muckety-muck banker.  Do you really think he'll do anything to jeopardize her job?  I don't.  He's a shill. 

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 09:33 | 4888938 armageddon addahere
armageddon addahere's picture

Did you just figure this out?

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 11:35 | 4889473 XitSam
XitSam's picture

No.

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 11:04 | 4889328 doctor10
doctor10's picture

Trey Gowdy is one helluva good representative. They'll let him squack-but not do anything else.

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 11:16 | 4889383 Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

Got NSA? 

Then you've got email.  That can be recovered.

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 12:58 | 4889775 RaymondKHessel
RaymondKHessel's picture

In 2 minutes flat i can set up my iphone to access my gmail or yahoo accounts and look at emails 10 years old!

No hard drive.

Utter joke.

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 09:19 | 4888837 Stanley Kubrick
Stanley Kubrick's picture

Fuckin' ridiculous....and no consequences for these pricks. 

As my late mother used to say, "I might have been born at night, BUT IT WASN'T LAST NIGHT...."

 

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 09:36 | 4888950 BustainMovealota
BustainMovealota's picture

There are checks and balances built into our constitution that prevent this tyrany.  The problem is our so called represetives are not acting and implementing these safegurads.  The question is why???  Some of the republicans put up good talk and thats it.  They dont act.

Folks,  this is all for show.  We the American people are being marginalized and at some point (maybe now) it will be too late.

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 10:58 | 4889300 El Vaquero
El Vaquero's picture

 

The question is why???

K Street.  Money.  The system has been corrupted. 

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 11:25 | 4889423 marathonman
marathonman's picture

Checks and balances?  The constitution is a power ratchet.  The 'checks and balances' are interlocking gears that ratchet power once it has been taken by one of the branches.  Power never need be relinquished in this system.  I quit defending it a few years ago.  The Bill of Rights part was window dressing to sooth the sheep into thinking that they would be protected by the new Federal government they just approved.  The separate but equal branches could each chew off bits and pieces at a time until all the protections were gone.  They're still there on paper, but in truth, they are gone. 

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 09:28 | 4888839 dobermangang
dobermangang's picture

Must see TV!  Trey Gowdy at work.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXHfZ_qgzHA

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 09:29 | 4888909 madcows
madcows's picture

Trey Gowdy for Attorney General.  Turn him loose. 

Corrupt beaurocrats/politicians sent to prison is needed to restore some semblance of integrity for the democracy.

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 13:32 | 4889394 Dewey Cheatum Howe
Dewey Cheatum Howe's picture

Gowdy is a useful idiot like the rest of them, shame too, I really like the guy and know he is going to go at it like a pitbull but the second he gets too close to anything that the script writers don't want known he is going to get his legs cut out from under him and stabbed in the back by the same people enabling him to do the investigation in the first place. I've experienced this story before first hand.

In order for the kangaroo court justice to be served to placate the masses he can't be in on the fix.

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 20:45 | 4891500 Lost Word
Lost Word's picture

If only Attorney General of the United States was an elected office.

Not.

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 09:39 | 4888959 BustainMovealota
BustainMovealota's picture

Trey has had plenty of time to act,  and hes does not.  He talks a good game and thats it.  This is part of the illusion to deceive the American people.  Whats is gonna take,???  Please us common sense to see through this BS.

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 11:31 | 4889452 pods
pods's picture

Most will not see through this, simply because of the fact that they don't want to.

How could you wake up and carry on with your day if you knew you were living in a tyrannical state?

It is tough.  And it sucks.

Better to believe there is a savior who will swoop in and rekindle our constitutional government.

And, 'mercans love their sports.

pods

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 10:05 | 4889075 sleepingbeauty
sleepingbeauty's picture

He is pretty amazing. I'd vote for him.

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 09:19 | 4888841 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Gowdy to Koskinen: How can you possibly say there is no criminal element when you haven't evaluated any criminal codes?

Koskinen: (Stunned silence)

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 09:23 | 4888863 DaddyO
DaddyO's picture

My favorite of the evening!

Gowdy is like a rabid pitbull on meth and steroids.

DaddyO

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 09:27 | 4888889 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Tore him a new asshole.

And Cummings, what a jerk..."I apologize that you've had to go through this hell." This from a man who colluded with the IRS regarding the True the Vote org.

What a fucking douchebag.

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 09:33 | 4888931 DaddyO
DaddyO's picture

I'm not sure how Cummings can sleep at night or shave in the morning in front of a mirror.

The depth of his corruption boggles the mind and he is a shining example of the whole congress.

It is broken and out of control.

Judgement is coming, I just don't know who will be meting out said justice.

Tha's the scary thought, whenever you have chaos, usurpers arise and seize power.

DaddyO

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 09:43 | 4888978 nmewn
nmewn's picture

"After the hearing, Engelbrecht filed a formal ethics complaint accusing the Maryland Democrat of trying to intimidate her by causing the targeting.

Cummings on three separate occasions had sent letters with his title on the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee stating that he had concerns and that True the Vote should be investigated.

Emails released by House Oversight Committee Chairman Darrell Issa, a California Republican, show that Cummings' Democratic staff had requested information from the IRS' tax-exempt division, the one headed by Lois Lerner, on True the Vote, a conservative group that monitors polling places for voter fraud and supports the use of voter IDs, something Cummings opposes. "The IRS and the Oversight Minority made numerous requests for virtually identical information from True the Vote, raising concerns that the IRS improperly shared protected taxpayer information with Rep. Cummings' staff," the Oversight panel said in a statement.

According to Issa, Cummings and his staff sought "copies of all training materials used for volunteers, affiliates or other entities" from True the Vote.

Five days later, the group received an almost identical request from the IRS for (1) "a copy of (True the Vote's) volunteer registration form," (2) "the process you use to assign volunteers," (3) "how you keep your volunteers in teams" and (4) "how your volunteers are deployed ... following the training they receive by you."

http://news.investors.com/ibd-editorials/041014-696763-elijah-cummings-irs-targeted-true-the-vote.htm

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 11:07 | 4889335 El Vaquero
El Vaquero's picture

 

Tha's the scary thought, whenever you have chaos, usurpers arise and seize power.

DaddyO

Then you had better know who you are, what you stand for and be willing to risk everything for it.  Just make sure that what you stand for is compatible with physical reality.

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 11:31 | 4889451 DaddyO
DaddyO's picture

If you been on the ZH for any length of time, you'll know that I do not hide my beliefs or feelings about current events and the long, slow, slide into oblivion that we find ourselves riding.

Many, many people know and trust their belief in Liberty and the free exercise thereof. I am one of those individuals!

Many will rise to the occasion at the appropriate time.

Remember Lexington Green?

Do you think it just happened one day? Or, like me, do you think that many congregated in the pubs and barns and town squares to debate their plight and loss of liberty.

Is ZH the modern day town square?

I am willing to risk life, liberty and my sacred honor when the Lexington Green moment arrives.

It hasn't yet but many are expectant, The Bundy Ranch incident may have been a precursor, time will tell!

It certainly showed the pent up pressure that is building.

DaddyO

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 13:46 | 4889940 A82EBA
A82EBA's picture

plus one good post

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 09:41 | 4888970 thamnosma
thamnosma's picture

There are plenty of douchebags in both parties but there is NOTHING like a purely corrupt democrat douchebag.   Republicans can't hold a candle to them.

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 09:29 | 4888907 Blues Traveler
Blues Traveler's picture

"not a smidgen of corruption" ...what number of lies is that?

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 09:32 | 4888919 dobermangang
dobermangang's picture

The president wasn't lying.  There is not a smidgen of corruption.  There's a whole tsunami of corruption.

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 20:53 | 4891529 Lost Word
Lost Word's picture

That is the logic of professional liars,

never speak absolutely, only comparatively.

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 13:04 | 4889804 XenoFrog
XenoFrog's picture

It would depend on how many times he has opened his mouth.  1:1

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 09:20 | 4888846 youngman
youngman's picture

Richard Nixon is rolling over in his grave...he did much less and got canned for it.....

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 09:30 | 4888892 BustainMovealota
BustainMovealota's picture

Nixon also had the good of the country in mind,  The fuktard POTUS goal is to diminish and degrade this country he hates so much.

As Michelle Obama put it,,  "All this for a flag?"

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 09:20 | 4888847 Government need...
Government needs you to pay taxes's picture

We're getting closer to the point of vigilantes hauling them into the street.

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 09:22 | 4888864 papaswamp
papaswamp's picture

Not as long as the mesmerizer is on with the colosseum games and cheap fat laden food is available.

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 09:26 | 4888878 Dr. Engali
Dr. Engali's picture

Are you kidding me? Fucking retarded Americans were all buzzing because the wookie made the comment about the U.S needing to elect a woman president (not that it's a woman in the first place). The ignorant fucks were all excited hoping that was a hint he plans on running. 

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 09:28 | 4888890 XitSam
XitSam's picture

LOL.  Your comment implies there will be another presidential election.

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 09:31 | 4888914 Dr. Engali
Dr. Engali's picture

Well it goes without saying that we have seen our last pretend election.

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 09:43 | 4888983 pods
pods's picture

Sam and Doc, cancelling elections would be the worst thing they could do.

They would immediately lose all those "I hate the guy but accept the system" folks, who are legion.

They are much smarter than that.  
Elections are their greatest weapon against you.

pods 

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 09:51 | 4889014 Dr. Engali
Dr. Engali's picture

In general I agree with your statement. However, I can't help but believe that we have something really nasty coming down the pike that will change everything and it won't be for the better. 

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 10:40 | 4889223 JRobby
JRobby's picture

A much more rapid loss of civil liberties that the ones that occured after 9/11 is a guess. All for the "greater good"

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 11:32 | 4889458 XitSam
XitSam's picture

I agree with the Dr. and Robby.  They will make it seem as if it is the only solution to "protect the integrity" of the system.  "Just a temporary delay of the election."  "The situation is not calm yet."  "An election would still be destabilizing, maybe next year."  They will get "bipartisan" Congress and SCOTUS on board because "emergency."

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 11:54 | 4889545 pods
pods's picture

I bet y'all ham sammies and a sixer of Carolina Pale Ale that we never see the end of elections before the $FRN collapses.

pods

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 13:19 | 4889839 Dr. Engali
Dr. Engali's picture

The FRN collapsing would be the perfect 'crisis' to finish off what is left of the constitution.

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 20:58 | 4891547 Lost Word
Lost Word's picture

Did you see Cheney threatening something worse than 9/11 soon?

Internet already includes stories of Israeli Micro-Nukes used in the 9/11 WTC Towers Inside Job demolition.

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 09:26 | 4888879 SWCroaker
SWCroaker's picture

Stand X feet from a wall.   Halve the distance.  Do it again.  And again.  Heck do it an infinite number of times.   

You can be "getting closer" all the time, and never actually reach the goal.

Just saying.

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 09:21 | 4888849 NoWayJose
NoWayJose's picture

Still not clear on Lerner's hard drive - thought it was destroyed but last night heard it was in the hands of the Inspector General. Maybe the crashed one is gone but her last 'good' one is with the IG.

Also, I didn't hear anything on the emails from the other six employees. The IG should grab their hard drives. Did they all crash?

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 09:24 | 4888869 pods
pods's picture

Just wait until the climax where they reveal a secret backup and the emails are recovered and say absolutely jack shit.

Does anyone think these people are writing emails that list who to go after?

Bwaaaaaah!

pods

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 09:26 | 4888888 crazzziecanuck
crazzziecanuck's picture

Could very well be a repeat of the whole birth certificate crap.

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 09:29 | 4888902 Dr. Engali
Dr. Engali's picture

Exactly Pods. You know it's coming.

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 09:34 | 4888940 pods
pods's picture

The "right" has been pretty down lately. Have to keep them on the reservation.

I can almost smell the hope emanating out of posters here.  
That inkling of hope, that THIS time, the government is going to do what is best for the people.

THIS time is when we are going to actually tag HIM with something that sticks.

Just the pendulum swinging as you know Doc.

pods 

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 09:46 | 4888997 centerline
centerline's picture

Kabuki theather at it's best.

If there was any doubt before that we are in fact a full-blown banana republic!!!  lol.

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 10:16 | 4889048 Cruel Aid
Cruel Aid's picture

This new hope made hoping something stuck to Bubba Clinton, pun intended, seem like a joke.

They are all teflon in this system. They are relying in the theta factor to allow their crimes to fade.

Edit: the pendulum swings, but it is also moving as a vector

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 11:01 | 4889317 Zymurguy
Zymurguy's picture

They are buying time while they fabricate new emails.  There's no way in hell they will cough up the incriminating originals.

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 11:52 | 4889542 Dewey Cheatum Howe
Dewey Cheatum Howe's picture

Don't give them too much credit. They really aren't that smart to begin with but Tyrannysaurus Rex doesn't have to be that 'smart' to begin with, just smarter in relation to it's prey to remain an alpha predator..

 

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 09:29 | 4888898 Four chan
Four chan's picture

unless the disk was scrubbed with dod over write randomized scrubber the fbi could get plenty of info off. if it were not scrubbed on purpose that is. they recover info on drives that have been melted in fires!

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 09:38 | 4888956 papaswamp
papaswamp's picture

Beeeewbs....Im sorry did you say something?

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 09:21 | 4888850 madbraz
madbraz's picture

Thank God we have the NSA back-up, right?

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 09:50 | 4889015 centerline
centerline's picture

Either the NSA is in on the action, or they are playing thier cards a little closer to the vest here.  Time will tell.

The grand question of direction (aside from war) is whether or not we go Mad-Max (next dark ages), totalitarian state (Orwellian/Hunger Games outcome), or actually have a chance to rebuild (post-epic disaster).

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 11:18 | 4889390 El Vaquero
El Vaquero's picture

Expensive oil means Mad-Max.  It takes energy to oppress a populatation, and the nature of the need to be mobile means that in our existing infrastructure, that energy must come from oil.  Liquid fuels.  DC cannot change the laws of physics.  Without the rapid transport enabled by cheap oil, there is a limit to the size of empire. 

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 12:03 | 4889582 Dewey Cheatum Howe
Dewey Cheatum Howe's picture

The NSA doesn't need to be brought into this one believe it or not.

If they really want to find these emails they will subpeona IT people, have them testify under oath before the committee and force them to lie, then charge them criminally for violating the Federal Records Act starting with the people responsible for destroying that hard drive or the IT people will tell the truth and implicate bigger fish within the agency or flip to drop the charges/leniency for the committee to target and ultimately connect the dots that is a larger conspiracy involved.

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 21:03 | 4891565 Lost Word
Lost Word's picture

DOJ under Holder will do nothing.

Congress could hold them in Congressional prison for contempt of Congress,

but Congress is too cowardly.

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 09:21 | 4888851 pods
pods's picture

Theater of the highest order.

Radio guys were talking about the hearing and how exciting it was and how Trey really had such a good performance.

Wake me up when there are government employees being frog marched to jail and the charges stick.

Just like the mortgage fiasco, which was probably the biggest $$ crime in history. All gets washed away and a token fine imposed.

This is going to go nowhere, because they don't want it to.

pods

Tue, 06/24/2014 - 09:26 | 4888887 DaddyO
DaddyO's picture

You're exactly right when looking at Vichy DC!

It's hopelessly broken and nothing short of upheaval will heal it.

However, your local city council, county commission and school board are calling for you to become involved and make a difference.

DaddyO

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