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The Cost/Benefit Analysis Of A College Degree In One Chart
For all the debate about a college education, its opportunity cost, the trade off of only having a high-school diploma, the impact of a record amount of debt on an entire generation's spending habits, and, of course, the alleged lack of inflation everywhere expect in those critical things that 99% of Americans must spend on daily, perhaps the simplest chart is the following, courtesy of the WSJ: it shows the average annual tuition - call it the "upfront investment", whether funded by debt or equity or both - for both a Bachelor's and an Associate's degrees from 1970 until 2013, as well as the average wages of those with each type of degree, once again expressed in real dollars.
In a nutshell:
- The change in tuition costs expressed in real dollars from 1970 to 2013, amounts to a roughly 275% increase
- The change in real wages for a graduate with a bachelor's degree over the same period amounts to a roughly 10% increase (and an outright decline for Associate's degree wages despite a doubling for Associate's degree tuition costs).
Is there any wonder then why the US middle class, and certainly both Generations X and Y, are hopelessly drowning in debt and why the economy can barely survive from one QE episode to the next?
Read more at the NY Fed which clearly tries to put a pleasant spin on the above chart.
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I'd say learn a trade, but who is going to pay the tradesmen? There are only so many mansions to plumb. And funny how a college degree is now a ticket into debt slavery, instead of a ticket out.
Anyone want to guess when the fedgov started subsidizing tuitions?
No doubt this has helped cause college tuition to skyrocket. But it also coincides with offshoring. And not coincidentally. There have been fewer and fewer good paying blue collar jobs for the last generation or so, so society shifted to jobs that require formal education. Now those are going, gone too. Welcome to neo-feudalism.
People are just now starting to have suspicions that paying for a college degree is the same game as buying the biggest house you can get and then tapping the equity to live on over and over as home prices rise.
When this one blows, it's gonna blow big like the housing crash.
All those well-paid higher ed "administrators" and other ancillary staff will be getting laid off in big clumps and bunches and their ability to spend and support their lifestyle will be threatened. Paul Krugman will weep and pray for more hurricanes so more windows will be broken to replace the lost GDP all those academics can no longer support.
Or maybe that's just my wishful thinking.
You're told to go to college for good reason. Debt.
In Debt We Trust Documentary - How Money and Credit Control Your Lifehttp://www.planbeconomics.com/2014/04/in-debt-we-trust-documentary-how-m...
It is all about how you play the game. If you want to go to college and party 4 years with a basket weaving degree..well... moron you deserve to starve. Get something useful from a state run university to start a meaningful career. Most kids don't want to suck it up and work hard so they waste their lives away in debt servitude.
Fuck that. Drink now and weave baskets, for tomorrow the well may be dry. The kids are smarter than all of us oldsters who got on the hamster wheel to nowhere. Toga, bitchez.
what's missing in this analysis is the probability of getting one of those prestigious govt jobs
with the pensions
and the creation/enforcement of regulations
and the collection of fines and fees und so weiter
because you are going to want to go ahead and get the 4-year college degree rather than the 2-year degree or the the 0-year non-degree in order to position yourself for one of those plum job offers
Put the money into a business and skip the degree if you are poor. Degrees only count for the rich.
People who should get a degree, minorities (government hires), rich kids (daddy will hire you), and single mothers who can brag the rest of their life they beat the male dominated world.
Poor white males with brains would be well advised to get a degree on line for 1/10 the cost and invest the extra money into a business. There will be a huge shift in the coming years to on line degrees as people realize college is at best a gamble if you are not in one of the above protected classes of citizens.
College was probably the worst decision I made in my life, right up there next to my first wife. It cost me time and money. I was taught bull shit that was useless. When I learned real knowledge I was ostracized by universities I taught at. Like the first wife I wish I had never went there. A complete waste of time and money.
I would have been much better off staying a thug, selling drugs, and ending up dead, rich, or in jail. I like to think I would have ended up rich but being a thug does have its appeal. The profit margin on drugs is incredible. Should have stayed there.
But but but.... pretty soon you'll need that MBA just to get the greeter job at the 24-hour Walmart in Union City. (And of course, you must be fluent in Spanish, too.)
Vamp completely missed the point of the chart. The costs have gone up 275% and wages only 10% on average. Even the kids getting degrees in engineering and science are paying 275% more than I did and even if we want to be generous, those salaries have only increased 50%.
I earned an engineering degree from a public college in the 1980's that cost me $5k per year tuition and my starting salary was $26k per year. Kids coming out today are paying $20k a year and a good starting job is paying $50 or $60k per year. See where my salary in my first year was larger than my total tuition over 4 years and where the kiddies of today's isn't?
BSCE will get you a $40,000 job.
SafelyGraze what's missing in this analysis is the probability of getting one of those prestigious govt jobs
----
What is also missing is data that includes deflation and a reset of the system.
Do you live in the NE U.S. or the west coast? Or, more aptly stated, where were you educated?
BTW...Hitlisted sucka
This might be a very good advice, but by the time these high school students realize thatmath and science are fun, they have sabotaged their ability to take the hs courses that are required to start a science or engineering career track in college.
The libs (like author Daniel Pink -best bud of Al-I'm-A-Bore-Gore) keep telling me that America will be the place of imagination and that all of those ant-like Asians will just make the things that we dream up, and eveything will be okay. No need to manufacture, no need for engineers, just imagination, that's the key. What BS!!!
You see, the problem is that the sheeple blame the libs or rebuplicats or whatever flavor. You are feeding the machine, my friend. The oligarchs sent the jobs overseas for wage arbitrage. The student loans enriched the bankers. But you blame the libs and someone else will blame the conservitards, and let's all have a party in the slums.
I get it, thanks.
You can say red/blue are same, Rand. However, you cannot claim that true conservatives and libs are identical. They are not. Dan is right. The libs are to blame.
Guess who received even more of the student loan money than the bankers? Well gosh, the sellers of that which was purchased with the loan principle. The drivers of those Demprog bumper stickered vehicles in the faculty and administrator parking lots. They teach progressive and give progressive. The fedgov rewards them with money released by public largesse. The students in turn end up dependent, which is also a great ROI for progressives. People should should be dependent on government after all, and beholden to it, and vote for ever more of it. University employees everywhere fully agree.
Rand is right. My plumber makes more then my neighbor's son who has tons of debt and practices family medicine. Kids need to weigh all options...old rules don't apply anymore.
My next door neighbor's kid (mid 20s) never went to college. He's an HVAC tech. Kid cranks out $80K/yr and (this is not a joke) just moved out of his parents' basement this weekend.
He told me a couple years ago he felt a little weird he didn't go to college. He was thinking about taking a couple years off to get a degree. I broke a 2x4 over his head and then calmly explained why that was a really REALLY bad idea in his situation. I told him to start saving up instead (hence, living in his parents' basement for a while) and now he's spending a little of that money to move out on his own. He's gonna do fine. I told him today I was proud of him.
Why are random libertarians so obsessed with HVAC workers and insist they earn way more than they do? It's the go to job for some reason.
http://www.payscale.com/research/CA/Job=HVAC_Service_Technician/Hourly_Rate
K bitchez? Stop making shit up.
I'm not a libertarian, although I have definite tendencies that way. Stop assuming everyone earns the "average". And stop assuming everyone works 40 hours a week. He's a kid and he's single. Got nothing better to do than put in the hours. I wake up every morning at 6am to the sound of the engine of his truck firing up as he heads out to work. He's leaving when I'm waking up. Sometimes he doesn't get home till 10pm. He hustles and that's really what I like most about him. I've NEVER seen him roll home drunk late at night from some party (and his family has lived next door to me since he was a young teen). No rowdy friends showing up at the house. He's clean-cut and has an obvious work ethic. Got a steady girl friend for about 4 years now who also works. He's stable, knows how to bust ass and has goals.
What he's REALLY saving the bulk of his money for is to start his own company. Nobody ever got rich punching a clock (at least not in the private sector).
Wanna call me out as a liar on this? You think people like this don't exist? Say it, and we'll be having a whole different kind of discussion. Eagles don't flock. This kid's an eagle, college degree notwithstanding.
Ok those with libertarian tendencies lol. I just often hear hvac for some reason and have yet to discover why. Even had exact same point of contention come up with someone else claiming their 'friend' (HVAC tech) was pulling in 'easily' 60k. Sorry folks. That aside, actually posted the wrong link, went to Canada instead of US, here:
http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=HVAC_Technician/Hourly_Rate
If he's making 20$ an hr yet working 'extra hrs' how much he putting in extra? Another 40hrs? Is his boss paying double time? Not in the private sector!
I'm not saying you're lying, but you are almost certainly wrong.
James, I don't know what state you're living in (aside from denial) but if you think you can hire a commercial HVAC tech for $20/hr. I wish you luck. Not in the concrete jungles of the northeast anyway. They'll take unemployment before they work for $20/hr.
Putting that aside, if you earn $20/hr, 40 hours a week, 52 weeks a year you're already at $40K/year. He's beyond that in pay and hours worked. He gets a little for OT, but nothing like 2X.
I don't think you're grasping the idea that you CAN earn more than an EBT card and disability will pay you. Yes, even in today's fucked up economy. As long as you work in a field where there is plenty of demand (you can put in plenty of hours). And those fields, many of them, don't require a 4 year college degree. Just the proper training and some experience.
There's not enough of this kind of stuff out there to carry the whole economy, but there's plenty out there to support those willing to do it.
Austin, Texas: the rate is near $18.75 per hour unless you go to a small business then it is near $20.00 per hour
My HVAC guy charges $75. just to show up and figure out what $100+ part needs to be replaced. Then goes picks up the part or orders it, and charges me $75/hour labor to put it in.
Car mechanic (non-dealership) $80./hour labor, plumber about the same, etc.... Good self-employed tradesman should clear $100K+/yr. after tax with no problem. My plumber takes a week long scuba diving trip every three months.
College is mostly a scam, but in some professions you need the degree to get your foot in the door. The government and student loans have fucked up the cost curve.
Yeah, no. Just no. "Self-employed tradesmen" do not make 130K a year before taxes. Unless they're working on the gold cost of connecticut or in manhattan. It's ridiculous to suggest that conclusion based on posted labor rates. It would be a rare individual who is working steady 40 plus BILLABLE hours per week who has low enough costs to clear that kind of money. But it's probably a nice delusion.
For comparison, the going rate for lawyers in your typical small city may be 200 an hour. But those lawyers are making nowhere near 400k a year. They're not billing 40 hours a week, they have a lot of costs associated with working, and they have to write off some of their billing.
Conclusion - posted rates do not dictate yearly take home. The local contractor I use, sometimes, charges, nominally, 80 an hour. Guy drives a beat up truck, lives in a dump, and never has 2 nickles to rub together. By your accounting, he should be making 100 plus a year. Unless he likes old cars and run down houses and prefers investing in stocks, no way.
Yeah you're right. Because you know it's impossible to mow a lawn or frame a garage without a brand new custom f-350
HVAC is probably the most regulated of the building trades, both at the state and federal (EPA) level. A tech that doesn't have a good grasp of heat transfer/HVAC or electrical theory and just "remove and replace" until the problem is fixed-they are a dime a dozen. The guy that can troubleshoot a system in a few minutes and fix it the first time will always have a job and do well. Just like a lot of other things in life.
Last time I got my old car serviced at the dealer in the US, I saw a "Help Wanted" sign in the BMW dealer for a mechanic after 1 year of the BMW technical school. Technical school costs $10k, and you START OUT at $35 an hour.
Jesus Christ. What a horrible decision I made to go to school.
35*40= 1400*52 = 72.8k
fuck me.
Granted, that was at Rusnak BMW in Thousand Oaks, California -- so COL is pretty high, but if you move 3 miles to the West you get out of LA county and into Ventura county, which is much less insane.
and that gig is like any other... you get a solid tech foundation then move into sales, you'll make serious lettuce...
The mechanic gets $35/hr and the dealership charges $135/hr.
Luckily, I found a mechanic who works at a dealer and does side jobs. He makes more and I pay less. Win/Win, except for the dealer. But seriously, fuck them.
the difference you're missing is the guys just getting into the gig vs the guys that have been doing it for 20-30 years... buddy of mine who owns a small HVAC company here in Austin just bought his fourth in a long line of top end sports cars, bought a house in Round Rock in a very nice neighborhood (Dellionaires) for cash and has more money left over than he knows what to do with... but, he's up at oh-dark-thirty every day and the cell phone never leaves his ear... has a team of seven techs that he runs and is a Carrier distributor... and this is just residential, he has no commercial contracts
I think the common theme to all this is, regardless of whether you go to college or not, this shit doesn't just fall into your lap - you gotta put into whatever you pick to get something out of it
OT really is the decider. My base is X which is in fact quite respectable.
Factor in OT and I round out for the year at 2X. In fact my gross from my primary was 1.98X of my base due to OT - worked around 800 hours of OT last year.
While the sun is shining, you make hay.
Si. And the young HVAC guy that I know, besides earning hourly and OT from his company, also gets a commission on sales and has his own customers on the side.
I have no idea what he makes a year. Just saying that 40 hours at X isn't the whole story.
No offense but giving me a Canadian chart of wages isn't what I would use to prove a point here.
Depending on where her lives, ND may not be far off. I have a large electrical contracting company and with OT, plant shutdowns, etc. a good journeyman wireman can easily break 80k per year. Granted these are our key people, but even an average worker pulls down 65-70. We have foremen who run large projects pulling down 100k and they are worth every penny.
1945.
I have a college degree (thanks taxpayers!) and happen to work in the trades. I work, I am gaining usefull skills, I am happy. In part this is my way of "going Galt" and becoming more self-suffieient in as many ways as possible.
I can garden. I can shoot. I keep my body and mind in shape. The Oligarchs can suck my Kielbasa and lick my Pierogis.
I'm guess you live in the Rhode Island area.
... de plumb in Detroil. "de plumb" - that's French, isn't it? :)
My two pennies worth:
Strongly recommend that you check this link about this topic
And ‘economics9698’ looks like hit a home run…… in more ways than one
If you get your college degree online, no one can hear you scream.
Not all degrees are created equal.
Petroleum engineer? Expect a good salary.
Black/Women's studies? Expect a good cut of the petroleum engineer's salary and the EBT.
Yes but which is worth more? somebody who has a better chance at understanding people or someone who has a better understanding about how to ruin what's left of the earth's environment?
If you don't like petroleum engineers, please stop driving. Also, please stop eating. You're gonna feed a few billion people without oil? Good Luck. (Yes, the day will come when we face that - but the engineers kept the gig going for a while longer).
I assume you're making a larger point about the value of a liberal education versus a technical career. I think you should choose a better example for the value of a liberal education than the ones given to you.
Can't blame a person for the society he/she is FORCED to live in.
Yes indeed forced. And hey, Guatemala needs to replace some of those feral children that have migrated north. I'm sure that GMala is far more "green" than the US...so this clown (F8C) can happily relocate.
Try getting a job with a chemical engineering degree. $40,000 bull shit jobs.
Sorry but me thinks that's BS. Unless your looking for jobs in the printed newspaper (which I don't believe exists anymore) that might be the problem - either that you don't want to relocate to a state where you can get good pay.
One year with no job, willing to relocate, $40,000. BSCE from a top mega university. That is reality today.
Huge respect for the petroleum engineers and deck hands, too.
But teachers of women's study? ZERO. Women out here in CAL already have heads full of feminist horseshit.
And black studies? Many blacks are already crippled by anger they feel toward whites, which is often well hidden.
A shout out the the HVAC guy - glad you're making good money making a REAL fucking contribution to the rest of us.
Geez never met a black with Hidden Anger, most is obvert and in your face racism.... They really exist huh?
Someone who has the creativity and intelligence to actually make something. So I'll take the engineer and you can slobber all over the NYU bisexual chix with LGBT studies under their "belts".
But what's the poor lass to do? She couldn't pass calculus. Calculus is man's work.
Math is a waste. The only thing it does it get you away from the bull shit pc classes.
until half the kids take your advice and flood the market. Then what? Ever hear of supply and demand?
Can't think of any recent college graduates who are starting at $65+
Oh, I know many who are starting at $65k plus in debt.
Just a point of reference. My kid is in his 3rd year computer engineering and is on a year long co-op term and makes 50k (24 and change an hour).
We live in Canada but I think the salaries are similar. However the cool part is that he can use the money he makes on a co-op term to pay for tuition. His tuition is around 10,500.
He goes to a second tier University. My other son who goes to a top tier university pays 12K for tuition. He made shy of $21 bucks an hour on his first co-op term (around 43.5K).
My Government pays me 470€ a month to study, provides "free for me" university education with tax money, backs up a loan for me to loan 400 € a month as student loan with very low interest. I'm making 60k $+ in a year with my e-cig company and I can study full time :) I'm 25-year old and my girlfriend is smoking hot blond/blue-eyed babe.
So it seems living your youth in a communist hellhole (Finland) is better than in the capitalist wonderland (USA).. What the fuck happened to USA, WTF happened to Laissez-Faire?
And yeah, after 3 years of studying I have a student debt of 6500€ just paid 35€ in interest for next 6 months
You fail to mention that all females in Sweden/Finland are blondes (with long legs). What I didn't care for was that most of them wanted to Rule The Roost. What's with that?
Said to the classy looking young man operating the cash register at the grocery store, today, "I bet you're a graduate of an elite college.
(Affirmative.)
"What did you study?"
"Hospitality."
I thought, good luck with that, kiddo.
Having long been in that biz, I can tell you that in most of the fanciest hotels no low end manager makes decent money.
Hours are long. Pay is shitty. There is no job security because there are SO many well educated youngsters who will eat shit just to work in a cushy, famous hotel.
I guess they imagine they are on the ladder to success, but with almost no exceptions, they are going NOWHERE.
Typically, there are only a few hotshots at the very top at corporate headquarters who make 100K plus. You might have to inherit those jobs. With few exceptions, the supervisory and managerial jobs in the hotels are shit.
After a few years, most managers get burned out. And then what? No pension. No health care insurance. Dismal social security pay-ins. If they still have their health, maybe the burnouts can find some job with a future, like installing solar panels. But then, most have never even handled a pair of wire snippers.
So all the grads you know studies basket weaving? 2yrs out of school with BS comp eng my son makes > $115k. His debt will be paid off in 3 years. You want to tell him he made the wrong choice?
The key to prosperity is to borrow other peoples' money and spend it. When the lenders run out of money, then the Fed prints more and gives it to the lender who then gives it to the borrower. I would have thought you would have figured this out by now.
The key to prosperity is to borrow other peoples' money and spend it. When the lenders run out of money, then the Fed prints more and gives it to the lender who then (gives it to the borrower) keeps that amount and still gets the money that was borrowed. I would have thought you would have figured this out by now.
Thats if that degree got you a job. If I knew where my diploma was I'd wipe my ass with it
College is a scam....
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=college+is+a+scam
It's a great indoctination vehicle for the NWO elite though. And no, there's no job for you....
College does offer some English classes though, which may be useful.
I'm heartened to see that so many of you smart zerohedge comment contributors understand how fucked our system of formal education is.
I'd like to see most of it dismantled.
Maybe there's hope.
I have 3 degrees, including degrees in computer science and law, and yet I wish I had dropped out of high school in the 70s and become a union plumber like my dad (who had a geology degree).
One thing that is pushing white kids into school is that immigrants are taking over the trades. That only leaves one choice, at least as far as white kids are concerned--college. Hence the rising costs. It is what the market will bear. Most white kids have no choice.
I couldn't agree more.
Immigrants are pushing white kids into trades.
Africans and South Americans also pushed white people into:
creating the light bulb, discovering electricity (and harnessing it), creating the combustion engine, splitting the atom, creating the ability to fly in planes, creating the ability to explore space, creating rockets, creating the ability to explore the bottom of the ocean with submarines, and chemistry, and modern physics, and the internet, and the computer you're reading this on.
If it wasn't for all of the Africans and South Americans...I'm just not sure where us white kids would be.
(soccer, footbal, baseball) - yea thanks for making us whites create those sports too.
Yes, there's no way that Edison could have made it with the light bulb if it hadn't been for all of those negroes and hispanics who were waiting outside of his NJ lab to buy one. Get real, we got along just peachy in America before the non-white immigration invasion.
It would have been impossible for the light bulb to have been created without the magnificent genious that came from the Africans.
Nothing but pure genious come from black people. I don't know where society would be with out them.
Probably here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XasTcDsDfMg
or here
http://www.vice.com/the-vice-guide-to-travel/the-vice-guide-to-liberia-1
LMAO...well until jiggy brings it here! And yep, monkey ass and bat barbecue is well known to harbor ebola. Not I get your gig...i.e., you have a clue ;-) Rock on...and use bandaids across both eyes in case they start bleeding. MMMMMMMMMM monkey ass...
Jiggy did bring it here. Ever hear of H.I.V or the AIDS virus?
Holy shiite...and I only thought that the HIV monkey screwing thing was a joke...WOW. I think we're SCREWED. Black Death Part 2...good documentary.
Get it?
There's an industrial park in my area that employs a lot of African immigrants. Two blocks away the public trolley stop that carts them in from the city
That two block stretch is strewn with litter
I guess rather than carrying their empty soda bottles and potato chip bags to the receptacle, they want to feel at home
Haven't seen any monkey skulls... yet
No sympathy at all for the white kids here. Look at their voting patterns.
They enthusiastically vote for a prez that demands "immigration reform".
Hence, they cannot even get a job a McDs since they don't habla. And all those summer jobs are now done by Juan and Maria.
All the formerly well-paying construction trades now use one white guy: the foreman. Everyone else is (or appears to be) "undocumented" from what I see.
Sucks when you sign your own economic death warrant.
But when the pain gets severe enough, and the blood trickles from their collective anus, perhaps they will vote for someone who is not cool and hip, and instead use common sense.
We'll see where the world power tips to (Russia).
The glory days of the United States are OVER.
Welcome to Detroit.
Goodnight.
@ Dingleberry
Excellent post.
Only thing, would it have made any difference if Romney had won?
Romney appears to be gentlemanly enough to have used lube...
http://c7.nrostatic.com/sites/default/files/CIS%20Report%20On%20Employme...
I left university with one year left to go, then worked a couple years in a miserable job to pay off all the debt. During that time I lived as sparingly as possible, making no discretionary purchases at all except for weekly bottles of scotch (otherwise I couldn't have survived the job). Now I'm free and clear, and when people ask me why I don't finish my degree, I just mumble something about how it's not the same anymore and how I don't want to go through that again.
Looking back, the only thing I really regret is the broken social ties with my professors. I was a rising star in the philosophy department of my State U. before I left. I know some of those teachers would have been my true friends and intimates if not for the artificial student/teacher distinction. I'm sure I left a lot of people perplexed when I just disappeared one day. Of course, the reason I had to sneak off without saying a word was precisely because of the friendship. I knew I couldn't continue on with school anymore, but it would have been too hard to look them all in the eye and say goodbye, nevermind explain why.
Perhaps, now that the artificial distinction is no longer a factor, I should try to renew those friendships. That was all I ever wanted from school in the first place.
Oh, good grief, go visit your professors. Most academics have psychological issues, so don't expect to form real human friendships with them; it has nothing to do with the "artificial student/teacher distinction." It may happen, but don't expect it, and in fact please don't be hurt if they don't immediately remember you. But go enjoy their company anyway. Here's the thing to do: ask if you can sit in on some classes. Just do it for the fun of it. Maybe even graduate seminars; they love having more people there in small ones, esp. of the person is smart, even if they are not enrolled. Okay, I will admit it; I think maybe someday you should finish your degree; I majored in philosophy so I'm biased.
Such a shame for opportunity lost.
You could have had a meaningful career in the ethics review dept. at Goldman Sachs.
@ Goosestep
"... the artificial student/teacher distinction."
The American workplace is generally highly socially stratified by occupation. Having a mind and being articulate usually won't gain you entrance to the white collar social cliques in the workplace. Maybe part of it has to do with "fraternizing with the officers" practical problems.
You might have to look outside the state U to find intelligent people to talk to.
You're right about the American workplace in general, SF beatnik, but I think that you are wrong about academics. It isn't a social class distinction for them - they are obsessed with having gotten where they are by their brains, not social class. That is especially true for those who do philosophy. If Goosestep has studied philosophy, he will fit in just fine. And the state university is ideal; lots of profs, lots of classes to sit in on. At a smaller school the profs might not be allowed to let non-enrollees sit in. And if he wants to talk philosophy, he has to do it with people who have studied it. It's not a matter of intelligence; it is that it is actually a very specialized field. He can find smart people everywhere, but they won't know a thing about the stuff he wants to discuss.
There are some geographical regions where what I am suggesting wouldn't work (e.g. SF, I know from personal experience) since everyone there wants to sit in on philosophy classes; you'd get turned away there because the profs are overwhelmed. But it's not that way most places.
@ karenica
Yeah, thanks for that. I'd have to take your word for it.
I must say that in my sense of even the elite Us in the USA, there isn't much genuine intellectual life. Mostly, they seem afflicted with careerism.
And the extreme specialization you speak of rouses my suspicions of higher and higher levels of useless snowjob abstraction that advances careers and reputations of the perpetrators because... we'll, it just sounds so deep, so clever, so subtle. Why, it just must be the work of true genius!
Um, I wasn't claiming that Goosestep would be gaining access to intellectual life. I don't know where one would find intellectuals in the U.S.. He would be gaining the opportunity to discuss philosophy; that's something different. It's a field that has been around for about 2500 years and it requires no snowjobs to make it complex in pointful ways. And I can tell you from personal experience that only the rarest person would be able to get an understanding of the field, by himself, from scratch. Again, there are a lot of smart people everywhere, but they aren't going over point-by-point the arguments of the pre-Socratics. Or reading Kant with any understanding (I wouldn't have been able to without a class in it). Without some training and specialization leading to actual knowledge, you just get gibber. I'm not talking about extreme specialization, however it is more specialization than can be found outside of academia in the U.S..
So, I've read your remarks with care. And I suspect we use our terms a bit differently. I think of philosophy (love of wisdom, love of broad understanding) as being intellectual life, in the best sense.
Perhaps a careful study of Kant would reveal truths of great importance, such as one might find by searching for Higgs Bosons. But I suspect that it would not be a very productive endeavor - at least not for me. (One can't be certain.)
Of where one would meet "intellectuals", well... I donno. It depends to some extent on how narrowly one defines terms.
You express yourself very well. Your comments are of interest.
kareninca, maybe you should go study ZEN..leave your big brain at the door. there you might learn .
do No work then you No eat. philosophy profs did not stand up against the society that created a corzine or h paulson, or holder, or chris cox. sadly they are useless eaters.
it isnt about the money, you're either educated and have class or you're just a dumbass redneck...this is a divide that goes beyond economics.
Funny.
I didn't get handed a "class" certificate with my degree.
Damn...They sold me the redneck degree.
Being educated doesn't necessarily coorelate with having a degree.
I believed school was about getting me ready for life in the big wide world.....
Until I was about 12, when reality struck.
I went through the UK Grammar School system.
Just think The Wall, Pink Floyd. Describes it quite well.
I went to a school very similar to the one Roger Waters went to.
The treadmill lead me to chemistry and astronomy at university.
When I left, I became a sign painter.
Go figure.
We don't need no
education
we don't need no
thought control
HEY! TEACHER!
Leave those kids alone!
(Ah, poetry! PINK FLOYD!)
As a degreed Engineer and an MBA, education has rewarded me handsomely. I don't think that my son will have it so peachy. In fact, I'm seriously thinking about pushing him to a trade school, all expenses paid...a real one where he can master specialized welding skills, industrial HVAC, etc. Once he's out and has some experience under his belt, I think that financing a business for him might be the most intelligent move. 5 years to go, we shall see!
Yup, once he has that trade he can compete against undocumented workers. Plumber, HVAC, machine shop. Good luck. Unions kept trade compensation high, not happening I think.
....and our government is fomenting such a wonderful environment for the small biz startup! Hark! Tis that another law mandating more fees and taxation!?!? Methinks so!!
Seems like we're headed back to 1850. Elite prep school (one of the "select sixteen", that is). And Porcellian, Fly, Hasty Pudding, Skull, such.
Otherwise, don't even bother. Best you're likely to do is become a cubicle slave, barely able to pay rent, and ever on the verge of being laid off.
At this point in time, were I young, I'd seriously consider buying some farm land, living off grid, and growing some of my own food. So long as I could find a desirable woman to partner with,
( I exaggerate, a little.)
When anyone can get a degree by attending, it has limited value. It's another "one of the best" certificates with college printed on it, instead of nursery school. It's a credential you buy, instead of earn.
It's worse. Only half of STEM graduates are finding employment. Down from 110% when I graduated back in 1988. Effing pathetic excuse of an economy.
Currently getting a Masters...paying as I go. It's in a field of need. I am doing the restaurant gig to pay. Most folks I work with have degrees that are useless. No debt for me, but how many criminal justice, Poli Sci, English Lit, History, Philosphy and Business jobs are there? Not many and you make like 12-15 an hour if you're lucky. It'll be fun when the economy truly shits the bed and all that debt comes home to hammerfuck folks.
Criminal Justice is a wide open field.
Add a marksman certification* with good door punch skills and the world is yours.
*With plenty of live dog and elderly practice.
Make sure you have a certification in crowd disbursement, you will be set.
I've been around a few decades. When I graduated from high school I had a good education. Science, Math, Enlish, Latin, etc. The kids tha tgraudate from HS these days that are not in Honor's Programs are basically idiots, so even if they do the JC and State College route, they come out 4 years later as older idjits.
You mean 6 years later....
The charts show that college is a good investment. Add Master degrees and Phd to the list, and see that they make even more per year. Don't go to college and work at McDonalds. There's only a small fraction of people who have the balls and leadership ability to run their own business and need no extra schooling after high school.
What college did the following graduate from:
Zuckerburg
Ellison
Gates
Jobs
they are part of the small fraction of people with the balls and leadership skill to run their own business. You must've missed that part of my comment.
You must have missed the part that the small fraction I mentioned changed the world. They had genious and were ruthless. A college degree doesn't mean a god damn thing.
Bonus: What college did John D. Rockefeller graduate from?
If you want to change the world - you will. If you want to be successful - you will.
A college degree is not neccessary.
FYI...Zuckerberg and Gates are really bad examples of entrepreneurs. They were essentially selected to be successful. Zuckerberg attended the Center for Talented Youth ( along with Lady GaGa and Sergey Brin) and Bill Gates Dad was a eugenics supporter. Hard to believe that it's a coincidence that Microsoft, Google, and Facebook all ended up being spy software.
What's your excuse for being a loser?
Just curious.
If you think the world is wrong....change it.
Gore Vidal, Alan Watts, J.D. Salinger, Henry Miller, Woody Allen, Charles Bukowski... The list goes on and on.
The smart ones smell the scam and get the fuck out quick, before their brains are turned to mush.
Fuck you, professor! YOU choke on Spenser's "The Faerie Queen".
Money and Connections.
I look at the graph and laugh, otherwise I'd be so depressed. I entered college in 77, severely underfunded despite being a National Merit Scholar. Started at a small state school far from home, because A)it was far from home, and B)I was told by several people that at the big schools, like UC, "you don't get the personal attention/access to teachers like you do in asmall school." That turned out to be bad advice. Tranferred to UC Berkeley 2nd year (tuition/fees had just jumped from $200 to $241 per quarter - minimum wage was $2 something) Had classes in 300+ seat auditoriums, but being 6' 3" I always sat in the front row so I could stretch out. If I had any questions I'd corner the prof after class or in office hours. Perpetual conflict between paying for the school habit and paying the rent - and the part time jobs I had wanting to push me on a career path. I was a supervisor for the UCB box office at 19. I think I made $3.14 an hour! Pulled hither and fro between dropping out to work full time, relationships, and my love of learning, I wound up doing a tour- UC Berkeley (physics), UC Irvine (bio sci), UC Davis (environmental policy analysis). Long story.
During the 80's, tuition went exponential just like on the graph. Student loans became available to the masses, but what a joke. My last quarter at Irvine, I applied on time, everything in order, etc., but the loan didn't come. Word that I'd been approved came, but no money. I struggled through Fall quarter, borrowing from friends, living on Top Ramen, carrying 16 units and working for the school paper as photo editor/principal photographer (award winning, I might add) Became good friends with the gals at the financial aid office, they saw me every day, sorry, not yet. The check finally showed up the fucking 2nd week of February at which point I cancelled my registration for the quarter, paid off my debts finally and began working full time as a photojournalist/editor.
Followed a female up to UC Davis who talked me into re-enrolling. Wasn't hard, I love reading and acing tests, plus (fucking) hormones. Turned down an offer from the LA Times to make the move. First quarter student loan - I get a call on the Friday before classes begin that my application is incomplete (not my fault - new requirement), I need to go to Oakland to sign a form before 5pm that day. Luckily I had a car and some gas. And several hours of time for rush hour traffic. So much bullshit. And the exponential curve shocked & amazed every year - it became impossible to keep going by working a part time job.
I finally quit in disgust having paid way too much for way too little. Working in construction during the last boom, I met a surprising amount of people with Master's dergrees and PHD's who couldn't find jobs or just made way more doing manual labor.
Caveat Emptor.
This problem gets solvled when we have a much more open and transparent system with true price discovery and choice. Oplerno.com is one option and its a lot cheeper and better.
Traditional higher ed is already collapsing. Its time to kick start the revolution.
Let's cut the bullshit out here - the bottom line is that a college or advanced degree should only be for engineers, physicians, teachers, attorneys- that's it. Otherwise, you are wasting your money and time- most everything else can be researched online or can be done by taking risk/ trial & error. For most, college is a scam - $60,000 liberal arts schools- what the fuck for?
Ahh yes- the main reason for these stupid USA liberal arts schools that cost a fortune- to MARRY into the high class. Lets face it - college is nothing but a factory of matchmaking of the rich class- a place to meet your future mate and just make sure you marry into a rich family- their offspring are all over those small liberal arts colleges in the midwest and northeast.
Medical doctors, engineers...sure. And don't forget dentists. Glad to contribute tax dollars.
But teachers, attorneys. I don't think so.
Two Feet Studs Up advanced degree should only be for engineers, physicians, teachers, attorneys- that's it.
---
Hmm, my economics professor with a PhD gave me a 'C' when I argued that government spending hides weakness in the market by misallocating capital. His opinion was the government spending was good. So much for that teacher in my opinion. I stuck to my point and took the lower grade. Morons are morons when they are propagandized or have a stake in pushing false beliefs.
Too many people are going to college because they have nothing else to do.
You have a huge number of people who've been mediocre students - at best - in high shool going to college simply because they've been told they should. They're clearly NOT going to prepare for the working world when they're getting degrees that are basically worthless. How many psych majors, communications majors, etc does the world need? But even the old standbys like ACCOUNTING arte no guarantee of employment these days as many basic jobs in such white collar endeavors are now being offshored. Odds are YOUR accountant sends your tax returns to India to be done cheaper than he could pay someone here to do them. Some major banks and corporations are offshoring Accounting now.
If you are from a wealthy enough family it doesn't matter what you study. You won't have debt will go to a reasonably decent school (you can buy your way into many second tier 'name' schools paying full tuition) and family connections - or those made at those schools will get you a job.
If you're truly bright - and at the top of your field - you can study pretty much anything but the number of spots open in academia or research are limited. You won't go into debt to get advanced degrees if you're smart because you won't necessarily make a huge amount.
There ARE fields where a degree is more than worth the effort and cost - even debt - like ENGINEERING but it's real work and takes some brains (along with math skills).
However college for most is a questionable endeavor - especially if you have to load up on debt to go. Education for education's sake is a nice concept but for centuries the long time student was impoverished and facing a questionable future in studying for studying's sake. A good example might be all the Orthodox Jewish Torah scholars - who all seem to be collecting government benefits that allow them NOT to actually earn enough to live on..... Again, the very best in their fields will find a spot but there are VERY few spots and they go to the best. You have a hell of a lot of mediocre history and philosophy majors.
I suspect Medicine is an area that's of questionable value these days as the cost has skyrocketed with competition fierce. You really aren't seekng the absolute best gettign ointo Med School as it's something of a complex game - go to a VERY competitive school and you may not get top grades so you go to a lesser school so you come out at the top of your class.... if you can pay it's one thing if not.... and it's a LONG haul before you can start earning.
Business School is a joke - the 'top' schools are more clubs for future masters of the universe - if you can pay you go for the name and contacts - you're not really learning more or 'better' and you paying through the nose for the priviledge.
Law school is a HUGE scam - churning out more attorneys than we need or can use. Unless you are at the top of your class at a TOP Law School you're paying a fortune for nothing. Even the partners at top firms are simply high end wage slaves - if they aren't bringing in billable hours - they're gone.... no more kill yourself for a decade and then coast and play golf..... EVERY SINGLE attorney I know thinks they made a huge mistake - no family life (many divorces), high stress and long hours for what? They never even take the vacation they're due.
The US educational system has degenerated tremendously - many now get out of a mediocre college with WORSE skills than an decent high school grad would have had 50 years ago. It's astounding how many college grads can't write a decent resume much less a cover letter - and math skills?!?!? They put together a spreadsheet with a fundamental error and are clueless that they're off by an order of magnitude (using sliderules - dating myself - you had to have an idea of what the answer SHOULD be and didn't accept some answer blindly no matter how irrational).
Knowledge for knowledge's sake is great BUT it is a concept that works for only a VERY few - the VERY bright and those that can afford the time and or money needed if they are NOT the best in a field. 'University' used to be far more limited - reserved for such people - because it was NOT viewed as some key to 'success'. You were born into money, married it, were brilliant and invented somenthing, had good business skills (ofgen learned through long experience) or were simply lucky. But pretty much EVERYBODY worked hard at what they did - a concept lost to most these days.
The reality is that the word is engaged in a mindless pursuit of the cheapest possible labor for EVERYTHING - a world where money is not a store of earned labor but created out of thin air used to make MORE money. Labor itself - physical or intellectual - has been devalued tremendously.
Physical labor is valued the least - even skilled physical labor. We send jobs overseas to the cheapest possible labor markets - think ALL textiles and most manufacturing - and that is now expanding to intellectual jobs like computer programmiong, systems, accounting, any kind of call service and support - and more.
If you can't send the work overseas you bring in cheap labor - legally or illegally - to suppress prices. You saw that in homebuilding and in things like meatpacking which cannot be done far from demand. Meatpacking is a crappy hard job that unionized and paid well 30 years back. Turnover dropped and things ran fine. They 'simplified' work into steps that can be done by unskilled labor. All illegals now who can't complain.
A few jobs - skilled and licensed - provide some protection. Plumbers electricians and such but too often they are using workers that aere far from skilled and it shows. They try to limit competition and keep prices up with required permits and inspections and such but that often makes work unaffordable for many. And that applies to gov workers as well. If peopel can't afforrd the ever increasing taxes needed to pay for schools, police and all....what happens? - Detroit.
If wages for ALL are suppressed (except at the very top) the effect is cascading. There's only so many that can be employed serving the needs of the 0.001%
"Free Trade" has been a disaster for the working classes EVERYWHERE. It has destroyed the Middle Class of the developed nations while keeping the developing nations farther in poverty than they should be.
Thw 'world' does not provide a level field for competition. The end result is more pollution, destruction and poverty. Developed nations GREW their middle class as they improved working conditions, DECREASED pollution and improved work rules.
With 'Free Trade' places like China have had FAR more pollution producing goods for the WORLD - instead of just markets in China - while the wages for their workers have been suppressed instead of increasing (they are doing so but at far slower rates).
Meanwhile the mopney made through 'productivity savings' - e.g. lower labor costs - has gone to a VERY small group at the top instead of being shared with the workers.
You COULD have a skilled workforce working LESS overall hours, paid reasonably well with a decent lifestyle, SPENDING MORE and therefore employing MORE in a manner that is far more 'planet friendly' - benefitting MORE people everywhere but that model doesn't let the top 0.001% get even richer than they are.
Good point about free trade, i.e. it's a very bad thing. Proper political economy demands protectionism and a maximization of the national interest. This used to be considered simple common sense.
@ cynic
You said a mouthful.
Five or six mouthfuls, actually.
A lot of excellent observations. But better if broken into several smaller, more manageble comments.
When further education has become only an indoctrination to indentured servitude, we have finally, fully entered the era of Psychotic Feudalism.
@ sceptic
Excellent analysis of what has happened. A hundred up arrows. The shift in college education started in the late 60s. TPTB decided that we could lift the minorities by giving them a college education. They weren't prepared to do the work so standards had to be lowered and easy, nonsense courses had to be offered. Entrance exams and tough requirements like math and foreign language were tossed. I saw posted grade lists for black studies with 300 students all receiving an A. With a free ride like that many of the other students preferred basket weaving and endless partying. It essentially destroyed the system. Now everyone gets high grades and there is no way to identify the top performers.
"The nine-to-five is one of the greatest atrocities sprung upon mankind. You give your life away to a function that doesn't interest you. This situation so repelled me that I was driven to drink, starvation, and mad females, simply as an alternative...It was true that I didn't have much ambition, but there ought to be a place for people without ambition, I mean a better place than the one usually reserved.How in the hell could a man enjoy being awakened at 6:30 a.m. by an alarm clock, leap out of bed, dress, force-feed, shit, piss, brush teeth and hair, and fight traffic to get to a place where essentially you made lots of money for somebody else and were asked to be grateful for the opportunity to do so?"
- Charles Bukowski
I met Bukowski back in the Sixties. He was speaking at a local college and socialized with our crowd for a day. I recall him as being an unpleasant drunk who always had a pint of whisky in his back pocket.
Buk (as in puke) was a fucking genius.
Eliot and Pound were pompous schoolboys, by comparison.
R.I.P, Mr. Bukowski. You were our only genuine poet. Fuck all of the fakers.
(Ask me how I really feel.)
No win really. Load degrees to get a job, no degrees no job. In my fair area, the trades are mafia and better than minimum wage jobs are few unless you are welll networked or a yong 'un from MIT. I have lived in San Francisco 26 years, and have struggled since I moved here to find steady work and I have several degrees but not from prestigous schools and not in key fields like nursing or computer science.
"Karl Marx, who knew quite a bit about the human tendency to fall down and worship our own creations, wrote Das Kapital in an attempt to demonstrate that, even if we start from the economists’ utopian vision, so long as we also allow some people to control productive capital, and, again, leave others with nothing to sell but their brains and bodies, the results will be in very many ways barely distinguishable from slavery, and the whole system will eventually destroy itself."
David Graeber,
Debt: The First 5,000 Years, 2011
Any analysis that has no breakdown of the types of degrees is not worth the time to read.
Stop wasting my time.
“The student is put outside of society, on a campus. Furthermore, he is excluded while being transmitted a knowledge which is traditional in nature, obsolete, ‘academic’ and not directly tied to the needs and problems of today […] Young people from 18 to 25 are thus, as it were, neutralized by and for society, rendered safe, ineffective, socially and politically castrated. There is the first function of the university: to put students out of circulation.”
- Michel Foucault, “Rituals of Exclusion”
Unless things have changed in the last 15 years or so a uni degree course requires 12/16 hours per week of class attendance ( if you feel like it ) plus a long list of DUFF additional expensive self reading materials (books/manuals/ the like ).
Therefore you would have to have rich parents or be fairly DIM ( in which case seriously question your real motives ) to fork out £36k in fees alone for say a 4 year B.Sc.
Much more practical to get a JOB ( ANY ) and say attend night classes for around 25% of that expense , especially as EVERY course is available on the NET.
Met a large group of Amurikans in Romania a couple of years back studying medicine and paying around 10% of the fees required in the UK. Yes, one great pre/post 1989 merit was/is the adopted Soviet standards of the gymnasium system(s ) of education.
Domestic or Foreign students pay around 100 euros per term for most courses and the vast majority have English language tuition if desired.
Fuck All jobs mind you in that particular country and you require a Masters to get a job as a receptionist in a descent hotel which pays you around 300 euros per month. So you have a lot of well educated young folks with little prospects of utilising the theory via practical hands on ( a recipe you might think for disaster , idol hands and all that but hey nowhere is perfect right? ).
Moral of the story is to examine every opportunity available to you and JUST SAY NO to a Student Scam Loan. SalamAliBumbaRasClot
It's a scam like everything else since the banking mafia took over in the 1980s. What they want is for everyone to be permanently at debt saturation i.e. where every penny of disposable income is going towards debt repayment (where disposable income is what's left after necessities).
Because the banking mafia own the politicians any large scale solution requires getting rid of the current political establishment and changing the laws to deal with the banking mafia but what to do at an individual level in the interim is very hard to know.
Yes Tumble but on the UPside for every $65k student loan/debt annuda $250k materialises for GS to short Silver. sarky
The disconnect here is that Joey Bag of Donuts who manages to pull his ass through a four year program and get a degree in RPTA (recreation parks and tourism administration) is probably not going to see any return on his investment. Why? Because you have to bring more than a degree into a job in order to be paid well for it, well enough to make the cost of tuition viable. You need to bring useful skills, intelligence, and most importantly, a work ethic.
The disconnect over the past decade or so is that "everyone must go to college", and it is being beaten into our children's collective heads that if they do not get an education they are a failure. Not every kid wants, needs, or is capable of, being educated. In one of the few markets that is still pricing according to supply and demand, as everyone and their kid wants a degree, costs will necessarily rise. The problem is that a greater and greater percentage of this demand is for garbage paper, rather than a proper education.
One of the things I plan to tell my kids, is every bureaucracy's first priority is to perpetuate and expand itself, and it twists its ethics to support that. So you have to suspect what they're telling you is being told with a self-serving agenda, and do enough research on your own to get the real story. Educational institutions hold lack of education out as the core of every complex problem, and more education as the solution. This is how it gets kids to become fresh meat, signing themselves up to be debt slaves, at the same time it convinces itself it is doing this for the kids' own good instead of making moar jobs for administrators.
That's the mindset of less-free educational systems, as found nearly elsewhere in the world - where people are put into inflexible tracks that determine their lifetime.
How about the tenured professor/author's of text books scam?. Here the professors write a college text book that is "required" by their class to which the student must buy new every semester. Many times students can't buy the text books used because their is a new footnote or chapter written each semester so the prof can collect more royalties. Tenured? So that means they can't be fired? Even if they teach nothing? Wish my job was tenured.
Degrees now are just another 4 years of intense common core. Our educational system coupled with our press is at the heart of our liberal bias. They have destroyed themselves and continue to blame Bush. What else is new.
I started on an associates degree in chemical technology and after a few semesters, different local businesses came to the college to interview students for a Technical Scholarship program, where you went to school part time and went to work part time and they paid for your books and tutition. It was a great deal. I graduated then went to work for the company full time.
In the UK university fees have gone from £1,380 pre 2006 to £3,500 in 2006 to 2011 to £9000 now.
It is a debt millstone round a young person's neck for LIFE. Disgusting
OR you tax job outsourcing like the Democrats wanted to do in 2012.. GOP blocked it to protect big business.
Congress should mandate that all students graduating from high school be required to attend college and receive a higher education. It only makes sense.
Galileo, the heretic, guilty of studying the moons of Jupiter and making sense of the solar system, was forced to recant to escape being burned at the stake.
The Vatican wasn't about to accept any of his science.
"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use." - Galileo
What people need to do is think, but that is Verboten these days.
Giordano Bruno was burned at the stake for thinking, so maybe it is better to not think.
muleskinner Congress should mandate that all students graduating from high school be required to attend college and receive a higher education. It only makes sense.
----
I agree with you only if congress mandates that you, muleskinner, pay for it all. Congress is part of the problem and you want to make it worse. Some people never learn.