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Guest Post: GUNS: The Good, The Bad, And The Ugly

Tyler Durden's picture


Submitted by $hane Obata and TRIGGER$

GUNS: The Good, The Bad, And The Ugly

Gun ownership and gun control are very controversial topics. If more people own guns then will there be more violence and more crime? If everyone is allowed to own guns then will there be negative consequences? Both of these questions are debateable and each of them has its proponents and opponents.

In this article we’ll take a look at some interesting gun statistics from an objective viewpoint. The point is not to argue for or against gun ownership and or gun control. With that said, let’s look at the good, the bad, and the ugly gun statistics.

The Good

Gun ownership in America – as a percentage of households – has been in a shallow decline since 1960. In 1960 almost 50% of households had a gun. In 2010 that percentage was down to around 40%.

Furthermore, the rates of firearm homicide deaths and non-fatal firearm crimes have also been falling steadily. From 1981 to 2010 those rates fell 45 and 75%, respectively.

Lastly, the incidence of intentional homicides per 100,000 people is lower in the US than it is in many other countries.

h/t @wu_tang_finance

In sum, the rates of gun ownership and firearm homicides deaths and non-fatal firearm crimes have been in decline for a while. Furthermore, the intentional homicide rate in the US is relatively low.

The Bad

The homicide rate in the US is higher than it is in most other developed nations.

h/t @gunsenseUSA

Moreover, gun ownership per 100 people is higher in the US than it is anywhere else in the world.

h/t @wu_tang_finance

Unfortunately, mass shooting casualties continue to be a problem for the US.

Homicide and gun ownership rates are down in the US, but relative to other countries, they’re still high.

In addition, annual mass shooting casualties are on the rise.

The Ugly

Spending on guns and ammo has risen with the gini ratio – a statistical measure of income inequality.


it’s also interesting to note that violent crimes are often committed by the same perpetrators.

If the US wants to reduce the incidence of violent crime then it should shift its focus away from incarceration / punishment…

…to treatment, rehabilitation, and prevention.

There’s no two ways about it – guns are dangerous.

That said, it’s not a question of “how many guns are out there?” – it’s a question of who’s holding them.

We live in a reactionist society. Often times, we don’t deal with important issues until we have to. If we can take a more proactive stance and concentrate on preventing gun crimes, on reducing the number of repeat offenders, and on the rehabilitation and reintegration of criminals into society then it’s likely that the rate of firearm homicides and the financial burden associated with incarceration would fall.


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Tue, 07/08/2014 - 21:09 | 4937840 Seize Mars
Seize Mars's picture

After watching the obviously fake Sandy Hook Hoax, and the ensuing hysterical attempt to demonize guns, gun owners, and gun ownership, I just don't give a fuck anymore.


Tue, 07/08/2014 - 21:11 | 4937861 Grande Tetons
Grande Tetons's picture

I bought one of those faux barking dog alarms that sing jingle bells. 

Honey, we are safe. Woof woof woof....woof woof woof...woof woof woof woof woof. 

Tue, 07/08/2014 - 21:13 | 4937873 FEDbuster
FEDbuster's picture

Fight crime, shoot back.


Tue, 07/08/2014 - 21:23 | 4937909 economics9698
economics9698's picture

We can see from Iraq what happens when the population is disarmed and the cops disappear.  Politics aside how would have Iraq been different if every truck driver and shop owner had a 9 mm and used it? 

Don’t be stupid, own a gun, clean it, shoot it, and practice with it.  If every average Joe had a gun asshole bad guys would be dead bad guys.

Tue, 07/08/2014 - 21:30 | 4937944 palmereldritch
palmereldritch's picture

 "You see in this world, there's two kinds of people my friend, those with loaded guns, and those who dig. You dig."

RIP Eli Wallach 

Tue, 07/08/2014 - 21:38 | 4937985 RevRex
RevRex's picture




Get a pressure canner too....



you can preserve non acidic foods that way....

Wed, 07/09/2014 - 00:53 | 4938501 rehypothecator
rehypothecator's picture

Most of the mass shootings are in locales where people aren't allowed to carry guns for their own protection, e.g. schools and malls posted to prohibit firearms. If those shootings are removed from the total, America looks a lot better than it already does.  

Tue, 07/08/2014 - 21:49 | 4938034 CrazyCooter
CrazyCooter's picture

My wife has essentially zero weapon/gun/firearm/pistol/whatever experience. I have been patiently working on nudging her towards learning the basics. We rented a pistol (9mm) at a range and after some basic coaching was doing pretty good, but the inital noise/recoil was a barrier.

So, let's shoot .22!


If you want a tin foil hat theory on .22, its because its the best way for a new individual to get the "gun experience" with out the recoil and without so much noise. It takes a while to desensatize to those things so that larger calibers can be practiced with and enjoyed.

I finally had to hit up my old man (retired) for a brick of .22! Then we got into the whole "shipping ammo" drama ...



Tue, 07/08/2014 - 22:31 | 4938161 DaddyO
DaddyO's picture

Let me ask a couple of questions.

How does an entity that was not a party to the US Constitution and only has 18 delegated powers, regulate my right to firearms?

How does this same entity, which has usurped all of the Bill of Rights, continue unabated in its further destruction of the Constitutional Republic upon which it once stood?

One Word, APATHY!

The Bill of Rights is like a muscle, if they're not used, they atrophy from the non-use.

Exercise your rights in some form or fashion every chance you get!!!


Tue, 07/08/2014 - 22:21 | 4938166 SumTing Wong
SumTing Wong's picture

We've found air rifles or air pistols with the .177 caliber does the same thing in getting people used to a gun. There is zero recoil, and they can enjoy shooting pellets time and again. And those things are really cheap.

Gander Mountain had 22LR for sale on its website a couple of times to do, but it was always gone when I tried to order. Luckily I was one of the nutjobs that stocked up. We're still shooting target practice here.

Tue, 07/08/2014 - 23:55 | 4938368 snr-moment
snr-moment's picture

If you can severely restrict 22lr for, say, 6 years, you'll knock out 50% of future target shooters.  At least, that's what they think.  People still get interested as they get older.  That's where we need to push.


owned by abc.



Oh yeah:

The Good

Gun ownership in America – as a percentage of households – has been in a shallow decline since 1960. In 1960 almost 50% of households had a gun. In 2010 that percentage was down to around 40%.


That's the "good"

Wed, 07/09/2014 - 08:18 | 4938860 TrumpXVI
TrumpXVI's picture

Yup.....and, yup.

That article is clearly a pro-gun control orientated article.

And it is also wrong on some of the basic facts.  The most rigorous analysis of the "More Guns, Less Crime" argument is put forth in the book by the same name by, John Lott.

Wed, 07/09/2014 - 13:23 | 4940173 Bad Attitude
Bad Attitude's picture

Most of the violent crime correlates to specific demographics. Study the DOJ and FBI Uniform Crime Reports data to discover those demographic characteristics.

Forward (over the cliff)!

Tue, 07/08/2014 - 22:36 | 4938207 Deathrips
Deathrips's picture

I bought Mrs RIPS a .357 SW for a present years back. She had never shot before. She hated it in .357.

After that .38, 9mm and .22 are her favorite. Shes a hell of a shot.


I got the .357 back too.


Shoot big first..then go smaller.




Tue, 07/08/2014 - 23:06 | 4938300 Manthong
Manthong's picture

Gee.. a 9mm is a .45 set on “stun”, but I think it is ideal to get used to a bit more power.

The trick is to start out with a large frame and comfy grip like the Beretta 92.

It's the smaller frames that exacerbate the control problem.. I have a little .32 revolver and a .380 auto that are markedly harder to control and more punishing on the hand.

Interestingly, I believe more people are shot with .22’s each year than with any other caliber (mostly criminal/gang related) , not that you would want to carry that caliber for personal defense.

(This is just for fun – NOT indicative of the seriousness of carrying)

Wed, 07/09/2014 - 05:21 | 4938648 Headbanger
Headbanger's picture

I agree completely!  Except I'll take my old (1989) Taurus PT92 over the Beretta cause I can't take that slide mounted safety which is also a major complaint from its military users.

But I have found a lot more women who love shooting revolvers instead of semi-autos because the recoil is just one bump instead of the "bang-bing-bonk" recoil you get with a slide slamming back and forth.

Wed, 07/09/2014 - 05:47 | 4938651 Frankie Carbone
Frankie Carbone's picture

You don't know what you are talking about. 9 mm can be as lethal, or even more lethal than a 45 ACP, but with less recoil (more control) and 2x the magazine capacity. 

Give me a Springfield xDM with either Buffalo Bore or Corbon +P 115g hollowpoints and I'll go up against the Jack O'Connor theory anyday of the week. 

I own both calibers and almost never carry the 45, even though it's a fine caliber. Not knocking it. But your statement is mythological, and factually incorrect. 45 ACP is NOT the gold standard for personal defense as most people think it is, although I would definitely put it in the top-4 or top-5. 

When I carry, it's usually the gold standard round for one shot threat stops: 357 mag with Federal 357B 125 gr JHP. That's in a hammerless SP101, which is snubby so it's now for the feint of heart. Yeah, 2.75" barrel - reduced muzzled velocity, mean wrist flip. I know. But I don't plan on a 20, 30 foot encounter. The vast majority of firearms-related self defense situations are very up front and personal. It's not going to be the gun range distance, that's for sure. That round though, in a GP100, is going to smoke any other caliber in lethality, given similar shot placement. That's just a fact. 45 isn't even close. 

And I pray that I never have to fight a shot in anger. Who the hell would want the legal headache and that sitting on their conscious? 

If I feel the need for a semi-auto it's the XDm 9 mm with Corbon +P's. 19 plus one in the pipe. 

9 mm is NOT a 45 on stun. The kinetic energy of a 115 grain +P has a kinetic energy of 450 ft-lbs. The average 230 gr 45 ACP has 415-430 on average. 

If the "big hole theory" is so valid then why is the Federal .357B the gold standard for handgun lethality in SD situations?  

The 45 ACP is a fine caliber and you can't go wrong with choosing it (I own one). But to call the 9 mm basically a pea shooter is a bunch of crap. The only true advantage the 45 ACP has is in cold weather situations, where the 45 can carry 230 gr ball, which can more effectively penetrate thick outerwear and still do considerable damage to the threat. That's it. But then I am considering the 357 again with semi-wadcutters in that scenario. 

Ohh, 3rd carry option? 380 ACP with alternating Buffalo Barnes JHP and Buffalo Bore Cast Hardball. Still beats a punch in the face and packs a whallop better than the average 38 SP. True the 45 is more effective than this, but even a subcompact is large compared to my LCP and when I want to "go light", this combo is pretty fucking deadly in its own right for close-up, face to face (mugging, carjacking) encounters. A cast hardball in the chest cavity or ocular region is going to put someone down. 

I will always challenge the "45 is better" or worse, "the 45 is best" myth when I see it, if only so that new shooters don't fall into that trap when they can get an equally lethal option that has more capacity, and far more importantly, much greater controllability and compactness than the 45. 

Smaller, lighter = more likely to carry. 

Wed, 07/09/2014 - 06:11 | 4938677 StormShadow
StormShadow's picture

9mm ammo has improved considerably over the years. I would not feel at all undergunned carrying a 9, I just choose not to. I prefer .45 for two reasons 1) 9mm may expand but .45 will not shrink 2) talk to any WWII veteran who used his 1911 in anger--to a man they will tell you it's a one shot stopper. I also own a snubby 357. In the right circumstances its a great gun and I do carry it some. However, the noise, concussion, and night blindness caused by its firing erases much if its admitted ft/lb advantage, particularly from a short barrel. And God forbid I had to take a longer shot with it (I agree statistically that is not as likely as a bad breath distance encounter). If an active shooter scenario develops while I'm dining with my family or at the mall I'm far more interested in putting a shot on target quickly to change the guy's mind about continuing his rampage than I am with whether I kill him with the first round. Shot placement is the key and the key to shot placement is the correct gun for the shooter's abilities and regular professional training and practice.

Wed, 07/09/2014 - 19:59 | 4941464 Frankie Carbone
Frankie Carbone's picture

Agreed on the snubby. 9 mm is my first choice out in the afternoon to evening precisely because with Fed 357B's it's like staring into the sun after a night shot. But like I explained below, it's a great fit for me and it packs one hell of a whallop for its size. 

Noise doesn't bother me, and can be an advantage in some cases as it scares the shit out of friends that have stood next to me when I've popped a few rounds off. 

Disagree with the accuracy issue. That gun is much more accurate that you think. Maybe it's just not "your gun", but that SP is an extension of my arm. 

PS. I have tried reduced muzzle flash Buffalo Bore's and they seriously reduce flash. But lately I have had a tough time finding them. Buffalo Bore makes GREAT ammo IMO. 

Wed, 07/09/2014 - 15:55 | 4940718 Manthong
Manthong's picture

Oh, for crying out loud, that was a  joke.

My CCW is a Glock 23 .40 SW in a pancake holster or my Ruger LCP .380 Auto for the pocket when fashion dictates.

..and I do not underestimate the 9mm.. I have a few and they are actually my favorites.. outside my stainless 1911 with the internal Laserlite.

Wed, 07/09/2014 - 19:54 | 4941443 Frankie Carbone
Frankie Carbone's picture

Sorry, it's often hard to gauge intent from written word as it is in normal conversation. My apologies. It just came off, to me at least, and I guess I was wrong, that I was encountering the Jack O'Conner fanatic Club, if you know what I mean, where every caliber except the 45 ACP bascially sucks. 

45 is a fine caliber, which is why I own one. It's just not my first carry choice. I prefer the 9 over the 45 (actually I am 357 during the day, 9 in the evening, and 380 when I have lug something around for a while - That's because the previous poster is right. The muzzle flash of the snubby with a full throated 357B is blinding... and I have shot thousands of those rounds to get a good handle on the muzzle flip). 

So I carry the 9 in the evening, because I want control. Ironically, my control over the SP101 with full bang 125's is amazing, due to practice and "just chemistry with the piece" as others who have shot it have looked at me and said "what the %$%#$ is wrong with you! That's gonna break your wrist and the perp will beat you to death with your own gun. - But all that practice, and that "natural fit"....

It shows you that provided the caliber, loading, and bullet choice are sufficient, the best gun is the one that you shoot best. 

That's why I didn't knock the 45. It's a great gun overall, and thee great gun in an arsenal for many just as my little wristbreaker SP101 is a "great gun" for ME. 

So again, apologies. 

Tue, 07/08/2014 - 21:55 | 4938063 BobTheSlob
BobTheSlob's picture

Love that flick!

Tue, 07/08/2014 - 22:01 | 4938093 pakled
pakled's picture

"RIP Eli Wallach"


His best role IMHO


Wallach (reading note): See you soon..  I.... Idi....

Eastwood: Idiot

Wallach: Hmm?

Eastwood: It's for you.



Tue, 07/08/2014 - 22:11 | 4938134 10mm
10mm's picture

You gonna shoot, shoot. You gonna talk, talk.

Tue, 07/08/2014 - 22:19 | 4938158 overmedicatedun...
overmedicatedundersexed's picture

if we just moved chicago to canada..then canada would have a high rate of gun crime, come on canada take detroit and philly and that garden spot camden NJ ah heck take the whole state of NJ too. and then you would be number 1 for gun homicides. thats racissst.

Tue, 07/08/2014 - 22:46 | 4938239 25or6to4
25or6to4's picture

Or take DC, Baltimore, LA, Norfolk VA, or and city with a population of enlightened minorities. Europe and Canada not quite there YET, but they are working on it.

Wed, 07/09/2014 - 00:07 | 4938428 Manthong
Tue, 07/08/2014 - 22:25 | 4938178 pakled
pakled's picture



"When you pull a gun, kill a man"

- Walter Brennan, as Old man Clanton, in 'My Darling Clementine'.

Tue, 07/08/2014 - 22:21 | 4938169 pakled
pakled's picture


Wed, 07/09/2014 - 00:18 | 4938449 NickVegas
NickVegas's picture

You stole my line. lol.

Tue, 07/08/2014 - 22:06 | 4938113 Mr. Mandelbrot
Mr. Mandelbrot's picture

What gets me is the charade of gun control (background checks, etc.) promoted through the mainstream media for the consumption of the non-gunowners.  Case in point:  We are legally allowed to buy, sell, and trade guns as individuals as if they are baseball cards.  Of course (and rightly so), it is illegal to sell a gun to someone you know is a felon or otherwise not legally allowed to own guns, but as I understand the law (I'm in Alabama) there is no legal burden for the seller to do a background check on one they are selling the gun to.  In other words, if I've just met you and show you my shiny new toy and you like it so much you make me a nice cash offer on the spot, we can make an old fashioned exchange and move on our merry ways.  For the media to even talk about "background checks" is deceptive because it acts like there is not this real and perfectly legal face to face market that exists outside of the dealer network that is burdened with calling in and checking an individual when selling them a gun.  How stupid is that?  Why even burden the dealers with it when non-eligible gun owners will just buy off of individuals on or  It's a damn stupid charade . . .

Tue, 07/08/2014 - 22:51 | 4938251 IndyPat
IndyPat's picture

They want to shut down person to person. That's the point.

At the same time, they are making it more mind bending and complex to be an FFL. Do an FFL search for your area. You'll see the numbers are down.i gave up mine because I just got too nervous about what little nit picky thing I'd forget would put me in hot water with BATFE. It was just a question of, is it worth it? Either have a full time compliance Attorney or risk having my ass resized in a Fed pen? Fuck all that.

Squeeze both ends. See how that works?

Tue, 07/08/2014 - 23:30 | 4938369 Thanatos
Thanatos's picture


They shut down that p2p Heroin trade a while back.

Guess they forgot to tell the junkies.

It'll all go dark once the squeezing gets too intense.

Just like everything else: the price could go up, but availability will not be in question.




Wed, 07/09/2014 - 00:13 | 4938444 rosiescenario
rosiescenario's picture

All the purchases of either rifles or pistols I have made through GunBroker required that a party holding a FFL completed the transaction. The FFL in turn had to submit the info for a bckground check before the gun was delivered to me. When selling a gun, I am required to ship it through a FFL after getting a fax'd copy of his or her license.


Of course I am not buying or selling guns for criminal purposes.  Obviously if I were I would be buying my guns on the street corner from another crook who stole them in the first place.


So, at the end of the day, the non-criminal has to put up with the added nuisance and cost while the crook does not.

Wed, 07/09/2014 - 07:23 | 4938747 carlnpa
carlnpa's picture

Mandel - correction

Firearms off of Gunbroker/Armslist require by federal law shipment to an FFL for transfer and background check.

Many/most states require a background check for handguns, even individual face to face in same state.


Wed, 07/09/2014 - 09:59 | 4939251 Urban Redneck
Urban Redneck's picture

Ignorance must be bliss.

That ANYONE was dumb enough to buy into that display of ignorance demonstrates just how easily the feeble minds of the sheeple can be manipulated to do the bidding of the propagandists.

Tue, 07/08/2014 - 22:27 | 4938188 Freddie
Freddie's picture


Meanwhile, our borders are invaded and no one is doing a damn thing to stop it.  Some Americans are down there trying.  

Tue, 07/08/2014 - 21:24 | 4937915 linniepar
linniepar's picture

Just got back from the range; my sister did great for her first time!

Tue, 07/08/2014 - 21:40 | 4937993 RevRex
RevRex's picture

You misogynist pig. "boath party's hour the sane and Busch did it two"

Tue, 07/08/2014 - 21:52 | 4938045 CrazyCooter
CrazyCooter's picture

WTF are you saying ... ? An insult followed by incoherent "blathering" in quotes. Did I miss a movie or a meme?



Tue, 07/08/2014 - 22:00 | 4938091 DaddyO
DaddyO's picture

The meds must be kickin' in...


Tue, 07/08/2014 - 23:40 | 4938391 McMolotov
McMolotov's picture

I think RevRex is the reincarnation of the late StarTedStackin', the guy who used to bash libertarians in almost every single post.

Excuse me, I mean "libertardians" — right, Ted?

Wed, 07/09/2014 - 03:55 | 4938618 Harbanger
Harbanger's picture

I'm thinking McMolotov, Wanna play with me?

Tue, 07/08/2014 - 21:25 | 4937918 NoDebt
NoDebt's picture

Utterly disappointing "red meat" gun article.

Next time let's do one on knife ownership and stabbings.

Or car ownership and vehicular homicides.

Or number of McDonalds per capita and obesity.

Ooo... how about let's drag China into this and do one on air pollution and cancer rates.

Maybe numbrer of sunny days vs. suicide rates.

Really, how about we get where this article won't go.... how many nut bags on psycho-active meds who commit mass-shootings?


Tue, 07/08/2014 - 21:29 | 4937936 Never One Roach
Never One Roach's picture

<< I bought one of those faux barking dog alarms >>


I just walk my wife over to the door and let her bark. She's had alot of practice.

Tue, 07/08/2014 - 21:45 | 4938015 NoDebt
NoDebt's picture

I open the door and let them see my wife's face without makeup, bed-head hair, the whole 9 yards.  They usually hand me THEIR cash, give their condolances for my situation and move on.


Tue, 07/08/2014 - 21:51 | 4938038 Manthong
Manthong's picture

Reviewing my bug out plan. I have come to the realization that I cannot fit all the PMs, guns, ammo, survival rats, dog and wife in the 4WD.

One of these has to go.. I figure it’s has to be either the dog or the wife.

I am conflicted.

Tue, 07/08/2014 - 22:04 | 4938104 pakled
pakled's picture

You'll work it out brother...

Tue, 07/08/2014 - 22:17 | 4938142 Manthong
Manthong's picture

Hey, problem solved. I found a cargo carrier for the hitch receiver.

She likes the fresh air and the wind blowing through her chops.


Tue, 07/08/2014 - 22:55 | 4938269 IndyPat
IndyPat's picture

Your old lady or the dog?

Wed, 07/09/2014 - 00:28 | 4938450 Manthong
Manthong's picture

You get it.. the ambiguity is the joke. :-D

But I do have that cargo carrier that sticks into the 2" receiver. A neat thing is that I also have an industrial plastic 55 gal. drum with lid and ring that locks tights and cradles perfectly in the carrier. Two ratchet straps keep that barrel so tight to the carrier that I could probablly roll the truck and the barrel would not budge. Perfect water-tight storage and transport for gear and whatever.  As a bonus, it can just be rolled off and rolled to wherever.


Wed, 07/09/2014 - 01:59 | 4938548 CCanuck
CCanuck's picture

Can the dog cook, clean fish maybe?

Just ask'n.. in case you keep the wife

Tue, 07/08/2014 - 22:16 | 4938146 25or6to4
25or6to4's picture

And your wife doesn't own a car and a valid drivers license? No brainer.

Tue, 07/08/2014 - 22:33 | 4938175 Manthong
Manthong's picture

The bug out route follows power lines and railroad tracks.. her little Nissan 4WD won't cut in that terrain.

But as I noted above, she likes the wind blowing through her chops. 

(just kidding.. and keeping the mysogynistic spirit alive)


Tue, 07/08/2014 - 22:32 | 4938201 Freddie
Freddie's picture

I bought a "Gun Free Zone" sign for my front lawn.

Tue, 07/08/2014 - 22:48 | 4938245 Zadok
Zadok's picture

I guess that's one way to stock up on guns and ammo, home delivery to boot. With a side bonus of some future garden fertilizer after decomposing in the compost pile...

Good plan!

Sarc out just in case anyone missed it...

Tue, 07/08/2014 - 23:06 | 4938299 chubbar
chubbar's picture

I bought a couple of those signs as well. I stuck them in my neighbor's yard, figured a couple of minutes "heads up" would help me be ready.

Tue, 07/08/2014 - 23:19 | 4938341 worbsid
worbsid's picture

One guy had a neighbor give him a ration of shit about his guns so he put up a sign.  "We are armed but the place next door is a gun free zone and I won't shoot you over there." 


How to solve the immigration crises.  A Marine sniper every 300 yards along the border and the Gunny will chew the ass of anyone who shoots one in the back.

Wed, 07/09/2014 - 07:09 | 4938733 neuronius
neuronius's picture

Is that what you call a "Honey Pot?"

Wed, 07/09/2014 - 07:29 | 4938758 Uncle Remus
Uncle Remus's picture

Why Freddie, that's entrapment.

Wed, 07/09/2014 - 00:59 | 4938508 Peanut Butter E...
Peanut Butter Engineer's picture

Are you by any chance the Indian dude that married a dog?

Wed, 07/09/2014 - 03:05 | 4938552 CCanuck
CCanuck's picture

That Indian fella is using his forward thinking....thats one bitch that can't take half your shit for rolling over on command.

Tue, 07/08/2014 - 22:05 | 4938110 logicalman
logicalman's picture

You forgot 'Big Pharma'

Tue, 07/08/2014 - 23:41 | 4938394 SoDamnMad
SoDamnMad's picture

Here in the Baltics there are many suicides in the long winters. I want to try to ban winters but failing that I want to ban rope.

Wed, 07/09/2014 - 00:13 | 4938445 DanDaley
DanDaley's picture about we get where this article won't go.... how many nut bags on psycho-active meds who commit mass-shootings?"


Speaking of which...

Tue, 07/08/2014 - 21:33 | 4937965 Never One Roach
Never One Roach's picture

<< Fight crime, shoot back. >>


Could have saved my friends life. He walked into a convenince store that happened to be in the middle of a robbery. The clerk and he and one other shopper handed all their belongings to the two 'diverse' teen ['could have been my son'] thugs but the animals shot them anyway. The clerk and other shopped survived. My 24 y.o. buddy died on that linoleum floor that afternoon.

In cold blood.

Tue, 07/08/2014 - 21:54 | 4938055 BobTheSlob
BobTheSlob's picture

That sucks...on every level. Sorry to hear it...a sad story Bro.

Tue, 07/08/2014 - 22:47 | 4938233 Seize Mars
Seize Mars's picture

Dude, that sucks.

Tue, 07/08/2014 - 22:52 | 4938257 Zadok
Zadok's picture

Shooting back would keep the repeat crime rate down...perhaps we should hold victims accountable for failure to carry and execute defensive firing...

Sarc off...

That is a sad story, my heart hurts for those who knew him.

Wed, 07/09/2014 - 00:37 | 4938480 BeanusCountus
BeanusCountus's picture

You have described my worst nightmare. I feel for you. Raised with firearms. You hope they can help you protect your loved ones and friends. Unfortunately most events happen quicker than they can be used to prevent a bad guy from doing his damage. That doesnt deter me from owning them and being ready. The nightmare of not having one is worse than the nightmare of not being able to get to it. Saddest thing is you defending yourself when you are simply in fear often gets you prosecuted by law enforcement, or worse, sued by the bad guy's family for loss of companionship.

Wed, 07/09/2014 - 04:41 | 4938633 The Wedge
The Wedge's picture

So many stories like this including mine. A family member was murdered for $400 with a fire arm during a robbery. Never even came close to catching the animals. I was about as anti gun as you could be in those days. Within a year or so I was robbed and nearly died. That will take the nauseating "we don't need guns" right out of ya. After that I became a legal gun owner. Not long after that I had the good fortune to defend myself and others with a fire arm. That time had I not been armed I would not be here to write this post. There are animals out there that will kill you as easily as they breath. No amount of legislation, debate or wishful thinking will change that. The police are there to mop up after violent crimes have been committed, not prevent them. YOU are the first responder!

Sorry for your loss, there's a lot of people like us out there!

Wed, 07/09/2014 - 06:26 | 4938689 Serenity Now
Serenity Now's picture

Thank you for your honesty.  It's very rare for someone to admit that they changed their mind on this topic.  

Wed, 07/09/2014 - 06:30 | 4938696 StormShadow
StormShadow's picture

Good on you for arming up and being ready, but damn I think I might just pack up n move out of whatever area you're in (but still be armed of course).

Wed, 07/09/2014 - 06:26 | 4938688 StormShadow
StormShadow's picture

"I'd love to spit some Beechnut in that dude's eyes and shoot him with my ole 45
Cause a country boy can survive country folks can survive
Because you can't starve us out and you can't make us run
Cause we'se them ole boys raised on shotguns
We say grace and we say m'am if you ain't in to that we don't give a damn"

Tue, 07/08/2014 - 23:30 | 4938367 Stuck on Zero
Stuck on Zero's picture

Let me see if I understand all those statistics.  All the gun crime is committed by 1% of the people who are not allowed to own guns. 

Wed, 07/09/2014 - 02:11 | 4938554 CCanuck
CCanuck's picture

As a result of their criminal actions you will be punished.

...its for the kids ya know!

Tue, 07/08/2014 - 21:39 | 4937880 ZerOhead
ZerOhead's picture

If you included mass shootings by Americans with guns serving overseas they would have an even more convincing argument for banning guns.

Alternatively you could just sentence the violent prisoners to work for Academi so thay can pay big$$$ restitution to their victims... save obscene amounts on prison costs... and still let them have their fun.

Tue, 07/08/2014 - 21:53 | 4938050 BobTheSlob
BobTheSlob's picture

"If you included mass shootings by Americans with guns serving overseas they would have an even more convincing argument for banning guns."

So is that a shiny new ROE complements of Barry the Petulant?

Tue, 07/08/2014 - 21:55 | 4938060 CrazyCooter
CrazyCooter's picture

Elite body guards should be required to have violent, multiple conviction prison records and heavy med scripts (so they are better) before being allowed to protect societies weathiest, most influential people.



Wed, 07/09/2014 - 20:54 | 4941628 ZerOhead
ZerOhead's picture

No PTSD and they come home in a box.

Tue, 07/08/2014 - 22:07 | 4938120 logicalman
logicalman's picture

Creative thinking!


Wed, 07/09/2014 - 20:53 | 4941625 ZerOhead
ZerOhead's picture

It's what happens when you get past "isms".

Whatever works is best...

Tue, 07/08/2014 - 21:47 | 4938020 kchrisc
kchrisc's picture

They should make a Zimmerman version of those "faux barking dog" alarms:

"The name's Zimmerman, come on in!"

Tue, 07/08/2014 - 21:12 | 4937865 Thanatos
Thanatos's picture

The "debate" is between the folks who don't have guns...

Usually it ends when one (or more) of them come to the conclusion that they want one too.

Q: How in the world will they ever get this genie back in the bottle?

A: They won't.


Tue, 07/08/2014 - 21:27 | 4937930 BobTheSlob
BobTheSlob's picture

It's all fun and games until the EBT card no longer puts food on the table. Them those gun totin' rednecks will start looking like a best buddy.

Tue, 07/08/2014 - 21:33 | 4937939 NoDebt
NoDebt's picture

It's amazing how many "liberals" you can't make a dent in talking about economics or government.  But take them to the range, put a gun in their hand, and it's a totally different ball game.  90% of them fade from their anti-gun stance after the second magazine.  Two months later they've bought their own gun and you see them at the range every now and then, with a big grin on their face as they empty a tray.

Sometimes you just gotta know how to relate to people.  Even the most die-hard anti-gun people will often change their opinion after they hit the paper a few times.

Tue, 07/08/2014 - 23:17 | 4938338 chubbar
chubbar's picture

You know what else works with these liberals? Put them in a convenience store where the first guy in line pulls out a gun and shoots the clerk dead, turns and shoots the next customer in the head and then demands that the girlfriend of said customer remove her pants, all the while telling the rest of the patrons that they are next. That really seems to take the gun carrying objection right away from them. Not many of them argue that the cops are "only" 30 minutes away.

Wed, 07/09/2014 - 09:55 | 4939232 DanDaley
DanDaley's picture

You're right...most of them are afraid of their own shadow...but then I have 2 obamabot neighbors who both shoot because they lived in a Dem controlled badass city -and hence have seen how bad it can get, own firearms and can shoot...but they absolutely cannot make the connection that the people that they vote for would remove their right to possess firearms in a nanosecond.

Tue, 07/08/2014 - 21:15 | 4937877 pods
pods's picture

Pass an amendment giving the general government the authority to legislate in this area and then we will talk.

Oh, and before that happens, repeal every single firearm law passed as the constitution was never amended to allow the general governement to legislate in this area in the first place.


Tue, 07/08/2014 - 21:30 | 4937943 Seize Mars
Seize Mars's picture


Yes that's an astute point to make.

Tue, 07/08/2014 - 21:41 | 4937972 ZerOhead
ZerOhead's picture

Is an RPG still considered a firearm?

Tue, 07/08/2014 - 21:48 | 4938026 sleigher
sleigher's picture


Tue, 07/08/2014 - 21:51 | 4938037 BobTheSlob
BobTheSlob's picture

Yes, and I want one. Scalia had the same response! Cept about tanks if I recall correctly.

Tue, 07/08/2014 - 23:56 | 4938413 OldTrooper
OldTrooper's picture

Here's your chance.  Many of these vehicles even come with a limited supply of ammo for the main gun.  Come on, everyone needs a tank, self-propelled howitzer or rocket laucher!

Tue, 07/08/2014 - 22:19 | 4938159 25or6to4
25or6to4's picture

No. It's considered a destructive device. You need a class 7 FFL in order to own one.

Tue, 07/08/2014 - 22:26 | 4938184 XitSam
XitSam's picture

Uh oh.   jk

Wed, 07/09/2014 - 09:27 | 4939073 Cloud9.5
Cloud9.5's picture


I find it interesting that those that would discredit the premise behind the second amendment all ways pull out the nuclear option.  You know the argument.

It runs like this:  If the Constitution gives a person the right to own a gun without restriction,  then a person should have the right to own an atomic bomb, tank or a RPG.


Well, this may come as a surprise to you but in as much as the Supreme Court has deemed a corporation to be a person; privately owned nuclear bombs are strategically placed in and around many of our major cities.  They exist in the form of nuclear reactors and they are manned by individuals all of whom are afflicted with the various foibles common in the rest of us.  On any given day, an individual or group of individuals could decide for whatever reason to shut the pumps down in one or more of these reactors and they could make those cities uninhabitable for centuries.  We run that risk every day simply because we want to keep the lights on.


As for tanks and RPGs, they are already in the hands of private individuals working as contract employees for various federal and semi federal agencies such as Black Water and Halliburton.  


As I recall, Tom Clancy’s wife bought Tom a Sherman Tank for a present one year.  Privately owned strategic bombers fly from one air show to the next.  I soloed with a B-17 in the air pattern.   An acquaintance of mine has five fighter bombers in his hanger and a Mig parked on the tarmac.  Privately owned howitzers light up the ridges around Gettysburg every Fourth of July weekend. There is more heavy ordinance in the hands of private individuals than you can imagine.  We tolerate this because many people enjoy these bits of living history put on display.


I am truly astounded by the general assumption that we can make ourselves safe by making ourselves defenseless.  This flies in the face of history.  No adequately armed population was ever genocided.  They had to be disarmed first.  Every disarmament was served up on the pretext that it served public safety. 


Europe holds itself up as being a shining example of civility and more common sense gun laws.  Yet, Europe was the fulcrum of three world wars and is home to Dachau and Buchenwald. The Europeans are very civil until they are not.


The three mass killings with the highest death tolls in the United States did not even involve guns.  If we take the government’s accounting of events, the most successful mass murderers in American History used box cutters as their weapons of choice.  The second used a truck load to fertilizer and the third used a gallon or so of gasoline.  Check out the Happy Land Social Club fire.


Your automobile poses a far greater threat to you and your family than does the gun owning public.



A significant, well armed minority here in the United States believes that the end of the Republic will be ushered in with gun confiscation.  Some of these people have taken Solzhenitsyn’s lamentation of how he burned in the camps to heart. Within that minority there is another  minority that will resist any effort of confiscation with deadly force.  Some estimate that minority to be around three percent of the gun owning population.  If that assumption is correct, then we are talking about a swarm of well over a million men and women. 


Agents and provocateurs serving our enemies are well aware of these numbers.  They would like nothing more than to set us against one another.  Your inability to properly asses risk may inadvertently light the fuse that starts the next civil war.  Unlike that last war, the battle lines will be drawn between our urban and rural populations.   Without the willing support of the hinterlands, our cities cannot feed themselves much less keep the lights on.


Those that are pushing this agenda are tools of those that would destroy our country.


Tue, 07/08/2014 - 21:55 | 4938065 Greenskeeper_Carl
Greenskeeper_Carl's picture

yes, and after that, please point me to the amendment in the constitution that gives the govt the right to fight a 'war on drugs', or to tell an adult what they can and cannot put into their own body

Tue, 07/08/2014 - 22:11 | 4938133 logicalman
logicalman's picture

I would never try to deliberately harm another person.

I'd like to have the ability to make sure said 'other person' can't harm me.

Seems reasonable.


Tue, 07/08/2014 - 22:20 | 4938163 pods
pods's picture

Here here!  I am for that up to and including another consenting adult, if that is your bag.

In all seriousness, most arguments stem from weakness in all of these issues.  We talk about how this firearm or that firearm has a sporting purpose or how they are just like any other semi auto rifle (say, FN FAL versus a Remington 750).  Then the NRA will come along and sell us out 90% and brag about the 10% they saved.

This whole mythical safe society is just that, a myth.  Because it only takes 1 individual to shatter this false sense of safety.  Then society tries to rebuild this facade by some new rule that would stop whatever just happened.  And on and on, down the road to tyranny we go.



Tue, 07/08/2014 - 22:28 | 4938190 NemoDeNovo
NemoDeNovo's picture

FUCK the NRA, they were the biggest pushers[sponsors] of the 68 Gun Control Act.

Tue, 07/08/2014 - 22:43 | 4938234 IndyPat
IndyPat's picture

GoA gets my money. NRA are toadies.

Tue, 07/08/2014 - 22:52 | 4938255 Seize Mars
Seize Mars's picture


Well yes, but there is a bigger picture here:

Who is behind gun control? I wish it weren't so, but it is.

Anyone who is trying to disarm you is trying to kill you.

Tue, 07/08/2014 - 23:13 | 4938325 NemoDeNovo
NemoDeNovo's picture

I have little doubt as to 'The Tribes' hidden agenda, no need to speak any further on that, but if you truly follow this back as far as you can go you will find things that shock you even more.  Do a little research into the orgins of Feminism and how far back that goes and thier goals, I'll give you a hint I can track that back to 1674 anf the petition against coffee - Happy Hunting!

Tue, 07/08/2014 - 21:25 | 4937920 The Gooch
The Gooch's picture

+1000 SM
Red meat! yum!
Molon Labe, bitchez.
(no membership or "swag" required)

Tue, 07/08/2014 - 22:10 | 4938130 25or6to4
25or6to4's picture

@Seize Mars
Oh I give a fuck alright. I just don't give a fuck what the gun grabbers say. I just keep stackin Pb and 4140 steel.

Tue, 07/08/2014 - 22:44 | 4938236 Seize Mars
Seize Mars's picture


Tue, 07/08/2014 - 22:51 | 4938256 post turtle saver
post turtle saver's picture

"Gun free zones are hunting preserves for innocent people. Period."

Tue, 07/08/2014 - 23:30 | 4938258 stant
stant's picture

I am from Kentucky everyone knows we are bat shit crazy because of the ky long rifle which beat the British. All I can say is since then the civil war ww1 ww 2 is come and get some. Ps I do have a ky long rifle , and my fave pistol is a 1851 navy and my 1911. As for what else I have guess ps I have family friends that's gay and transgendered . Do I agree with ? No . But. It's not my place to judge. Hitler went after the weak the gays the unwanted as much as the Jews. Arm yourselves

Tue, 07/08/2014 - 21:08 | 4937843 DirkDiggler11
DirkDiggler11's picture

Statistics ? Thanks for heads up this article would be filled with lies and bullshit.

Disclosure: Long lead, food, silver and gold.

Tue, 07/08/2014 - 21:11 | 4937856 BobTheSlob
BobTheSlob's picture


Tue, 07/08/2014 - 21:19 | 4937899 klockwerks
klockwerks's picture

+1000 Dirk, after reading this BS I was looking forward to getting to the comments. I knew my ZH family would come across and tear this guy a new one. The whole thing is 100% BS

Tue, 07/08/2014 - 22:05 | 4938112 Greenskeeper_Carl
Greenskeeper_Carl's picture

karl denninger wrote an excellent piece that would destroy this one. Basically, if you take a few inner cities with very 'urban' populations, which also tend to have gang problems, out of the equation, gun crime in this country drops down to almost nothing. Just a handful of inner cities, nearly all of which have very strict gun laws on the book, the crime rate disappears. And why are all these people shooting each other and anyone unlucky enough to be nearby? drug profits. This article fails to mention drug prohibition is THE reason most of these shootings happen. 'the war on drugs is a war on freedom' - Laurance Vance

Wed, 07/09/2014 - 02:39 | 4938575 Kobe Beef
Kobe Beef's picture

The person who pulls the trigger is to blame. Not guns, not drugs. Not schools, streets, or neighborhoods. These are all inanimate objects. Who pulls the trigger?

58% of the time, that person is a black male betweeen the ages of 14-24, despite being only 1% of the total population.

The gun problem in America is: Young black males with guns. 

There. Said it. Maybe it's not a gun problem after all.

B-b-but raycist. I know. I can see. The stats are there for all to see. Don't believe them? Ask a cop. Don't believe them? Purchase a police scanner and listen to the descriptions of the perps in real time. Political Correctness won't let us speak the evidence before our eyes, so we must make any number of excuses involving a myriad of inanimate objects instead of confronting the real problem.

Which is: young black males with guns.

And the PC regime won't allow anyone to say so, much less act against. Stop and frisk worked, but it was catching too many blacks, so it had go. Zimmerman worked. But he shot a black, so he had to get railroaded.

So. Systematically speaking...

The Welfare State pops them out too quickly for the Police State to lock them up. Elites are heavily involved in the public-privateering of both these States, so in true Anarcho-tyrannist fashion expect nothing to be done except the further harassment of law-abiding, primarily white, gun owners.

Know the risks, and protect yourselves people. And by all means stop parroting the narratives that promote Welfare & Prison State agendas. 

Tue, 07/08/2014 - 21:08 | 4937844 localsavage
localsavage's picture

Do you have a chart for the percentage of mass shooters on psych drugs?

Tue, 07/08/2014 - 21:12 | 4937864 BobTheSlob
BobTheSlob's picture

YES, BUT NO chart needed.

Off Psych drugs: ZERO
On psych drugs: 100%

Tue, 07/08/2014 - 21:10 | 4937854 BobTheSlob
BobTheSlob's picture

Yep, a totally unbiased article:

"There’s no two ways about it – guns are dangerous."

Tell that to the mother that pops a few caps in an intruder to protect her kids.

Furthermore, this one:

"The homicide rate in the US is higher than it is in most other developed nations."

Needs to be broken down by demographic and region to become understandable. The demographics of it is very enlightening.

And then this nugget of feces:

"it’s also interesting to note that violent crimes are often committed by the same perpetrators."....."If the US wants to reduce the incidence of violent crime then it should shift its focus away from incarceration / punishment…"


Wed, 07/09/2014 - 06:39 | 4938707 Serenity Now
Serenity Now's picture

LOL, yeah, he says he's going to be objective about the topic, and then he runs right off the reservation into utter nonsense.

This article seems to have been written by a freshman in college who has just discovered this oh-so-controversial topic!  

Weak thesis, weak evidence (putting it mildly), and completely biased conclusion.


Tue, 07/08/2014 - 21:12 | 4937867 kaiserhoff
kaiserhoff's picture

The usual commie shit, mixing fact with ideology in crazy, inconsistent, and dishonest ways.

If only the government has guns, no one but the criminal class will have guns.  ZH readers deserve better.

Tue, 07/08/2014 - 21:20 | 4937902 pods
pods's picture

Agree wholeheartidly.  As soon as you enter into this argument, you lose.

Pass an amendment and then have this debate.  Of course, given the pussified society we are today, people would take a moment from sheltering in place to vote aye on this.


Tue, 07/08/2014 - 21:29 | 4937938 The Gooch
The Gooch's picture

With round-point scissors, no less.

Tue, 07/08/2014 - 21:38 | 4937982 Son of Loki
Son of Loki's picture

The article didn't mention shitgums once.


I'm surprised.

Tue, 07/08/2014 - 22:03 | 4938102 The Gooch
The Gooch's picture

Did he not recieve his Julius Streicher award?

Wed, 07/09/2014 - 07:56 | 4938801 Oldwood
Oldwood's picture

Pods, while I support your point, exactly who beside a few of us, gives a flying fuck what the constitution says? Anyone notice that virtually everything they are doing is not in the constitution and when you hear the Supremes explain it, if unconstitutional laws or government actions take place and are not substantially resisted by CONgress, they are de facto amendments and good as constitutional.

We can argue about constitutionality all day long, but those imposing on us don't give a fuck.

Wed, 07/09/2014 - 06:41 | 4938710 Serenity Now
Serenity Now's picture

+1.  So much better than my comment, which I posted (above) before I read yours.  

Tue, 07/08/2014 - 21:15 | 4937878 NYPoke
NYPoke's picture

Mexico a developed country?  That was the best laugh of the day so far.

Tue, 07/08/2014 - 21:20 | 4937897 Grande Tetons
Grande Tetons's picture

Remember the Alamo....has a back gate. 

Tue, 07/08/2014 - 21:41 | 4938000 NoDebt
NoDebt's picture

I totally missed that.  Thanks.  Yes, it was worth a good chuckle.

Tue, 07/08/2014 - 22:53 | 4938259 25or6to4
25or6to4's picture

Oh it's developed alright. Just not in the way you were thinking about.

Tue, 07/08/2014 - 21:17 | 4937888 Duc888
Duc888's picture



Bobtheslob: "There’s no two ways about it – guns are dangerous."




Americans Killed by Cops Now Outnumber Americans Killed in Iraq War


We need to take their gunz away.  Cops are dangerous.  Guns don't kill people.  People kill people.


Tue, 07/08/2014 - 21:29 | 4937935 toady
toady's picture

Guns don't kill people. Cops kill people.

There, fixed it for ya!

Tue, 07/08/2014 - 22:52 | 4938260 Freddie
Freddie's picture

Cops usually kill their pets too.

Tue, 07/08/2014 - 21:19 | 4937894 Duc888
Tue, 07/08/2014 - 21:22 | 4937907 AccreditedEYE
AccreditedEYE's picture

Story volume off the charts tonight! Short Vol bitchez = free money

Tue, 07/08/2014 - 21:24 | 4937914 Seize Mars
Seize Mars's picture

Green screen hoax bullshit passed off by ABC news.

I recommend watching the whole video - I promise it's very direct, short and sweet. My favorite part is about 2:15 ish when, if you slow it down, you can see the woman's leg pass through the planter box.


Good job, DHS, you fucked it all up.

Tue, 07/08/2014 - 23:18 | 4938339 Hugh G Rection
Hugh G Rection's picture

Careful with that Russianvids guy (Ben Liashenko).  He is an unhinged maniac that threatened me for calling bullshit on his "fake bombs" in Boston shit.  Sandy Hook...I know enough to know I don't know.

All truthseekers need to be aware that the Cass Sunstein "cognitive infiltration" program is alive and well.  Ask Ben how he could afford that house in San Mateo...

Tue, 07/08/2014 - 21:28 | 4937924 One And Only
One And Only's picture

Here's something interesting.

Click the search by "race/ethnicity" button.

We're all the same - until you look at us through the prism of statistics.

Tue, 07/08/2014 - 21:29 | 4937940 BobTheSlob
BobTheSlob's picture

Yep, take homey and jose out of the picture and we start looking so much more like thems "civilized countries".

Tue, 07/08/2014 - 21:40 | 4937995 BobTheSlob
BobTheSlob's picture

It would appear that homey need some marksmanship lessons per those non-fatal stats!...perhaps coincident with the en-vogue "sideways shot"?

Tue, 07/08/2014 - 22:00 | 4938083 IridiumRebel
IridiumRebel's picture

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

Vamanos ese! Tome tus pistolas, puto!!

Tue, 07/08/2014 - 23:02 | 4938290 25or6to4
25or6to4's picture

@bob the slob
Ssshhh! Don't let them in on the secret to accurate shots. It's to all non black advantage to keep that particular status quo in place.

Tue, 07/08/2014 - 21:43 | 4938003 Oldwood
Oldwood's picture

That's just racist.

I mean it is racist to point out facts about specific races that demonstrates specific negative traits, right?

I just want to be sure I'm using the term correctly.

Tue, 07/08/2014 - 21:46 | 4938016 FredFlintstone
FredFlintstone's picture

Amazing, but sad. Thanks.

Tue, 07/08/2014 - 21:27 | 4937931 e_goldstein
e_goldstein's picture

This is the most contrived piece of excriment that I have read on Zero Hedge.

Tue, 07/08/2014 - 21:27 | 4937932 10mm
10mm's picture

We all know what a disarmed society leads to. Genocide. 

Tue, 07/08/2014 - 21:29 | 4937937 Incubus
Incubus's picture

fuck this buying a .308 this week

Tue, 07/08/2014 - 21:31 | 4937954 BobTheSlob
BobTheSlob's picture

Good choice. If you can afford it on an AR platform all the better. The other end of the spectrum is the Rem 700...popular and lots of aftermarket goodies!

Do NOT follow this link or you will be banned from the site!