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Kiev Reports Ukraine Warplane Was Shot Down By A Russian Fighter Jet

Tyler Durden's picture


While most news coming out of Ukraine regarding the ongoing civil war are merely propaganda designed to make Russia look bad, and hence irrelevant (and vice versa from Russia of course - the only news that matters re: Ukraine is i) what happens with gas deliveries to Europe via Ukraine and ii) the fate of the South Stream pipeline; the rest is mostly noise), it is perhaps a testament to how the global media will observe Russia's response to the latest US sanctions, and hardly improve risk appetite, that as Reuters reports a Russian jet shot down a Ukrainian SU-25 fighter plane that was on military operations over the east of Ukraine.

While we have yet to receive the official Kremlin denial of this major escalation in hostilities between the two countries, and one which would otherwise be grounds for war by Ukraine and thus essentially denies the report (since Ukraine did not declare war on Russia for rather obvious reasons), here are the alleged details:

It was the strongest Ukrainian allegation to date of direct Russian military involvement in the conflict. Russia's defence ministry declined to comment on the report.


The plane was brought down on Wednesday night by a rocket strike and the pilot safely ejected, Andriy Lysenko, a spokesman for Ukraine's national Defence and Security Council, told journalists.


It was the third reported incident this week in which a Ukrainian plane has been hit by a missile.


Kiev has said that an An-26 military transporter was brought down last Monday probably by a missile fired from Russia, either from the air or from the ground. Two out of the eight people on board that plane were killed, the Ukrainian military said.


On Wednesday, another SU-25 was hit by a rebel missile but the pilot brought the plane down successfully with relatively slight damage. Kiev did not allege Russian involvement in that case.

Cue stern Russian denial in 5... 4... 3... even as Kiev continues to quietly syphon off transiting gas destined for Europe. And speaking of Russian gas heading toward Germany, keep a close eye on it - it may start to fluctuate in the near future.


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Thu, 07/17/2014 - 07:49 | 4966573 Headbanger
Headbanger's picture

Translation:  FUCK YOU BARRY!

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 07:57 | 4966590 kliguy38
kliguy38's picture

No......fuck us all... Release the Kracken

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 08:02 | 4966599 Latina Lover
Latina Lover's picture

Kiev lies all the time, trying to draw NATO and Europe into a war with Russia. 

War is good for defense contractors, banksters and  the assorted Oligarch/mafia criminals currently controlling the Ukraine on behalf of Washington.

War is bad for the thousand of soldiers killed on both sides, the hundreds of thousands displaced by the Kievs attacks on civilians, and the millions of Ukrainians who will suffer through deep economic calamity, so that the IMF insiders can steal their assets at pennies on the dollar. 


Fuck you USSA! Fuck you EUSSA!


Thu, 07/17/2014 - 08:04 | 4966617 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

I agree that Kiev lies. often. so do Moscow, Washington, Tel Aviv, several european capitals, etc.

yet... you also make lots of assertions. unbacked assertions

meanwhile most of Europe does not want a war. and it's a pity that Poland and the Baltic Nations are blocking the nomination of the Italian Foreign Minister to that EU Commission FM post on the grounds that she, her party, her PM and Italy in general are too friendly towards Moscow

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 08:06 | 4966619 ilion
ilion's picture

Obama, that sick fuck, is smiling when he reads these news. That's exactly what he wants to see.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 08:07 | 4966624 NoDebt
NoDebt's picture

Somewhere there's an oligarch pushing on a button labeled "war" and screaming out loud "Jezz, how many time do I have to push this freaking thing before I get my war?"

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 08:13 | 4966639 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

apt image. only it's a dozen dozens oligarchs, and they scream at lobbyists, which then scream at their bought politicians, which then scream... even at generals who think that they have more than enough tanks for the next three wars. that button is lobbyism gone berserk

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 08:19 | 4966643 jbvtme
jbvtme's picture

sounds like a game of chicken kiev?

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 08:42 | 4966746 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

still blaming Bush The Elder? does anybody remember the original Chicken Kiev reference?

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 08:17 | 4966648 Latina Lover
Latina Lover's picture

Ghordius, You claim I make lots of assertions, unbacked assertions.  So what are they?

That banksters and Defence companies are opposed to war? That Kiev does not want intervention by the USSA against Russia?  Please elucidate.

Most of Europe does not want war but the last time I checked, the EU President is  appointed in secret, and MEPs cannot propose policy, nor can they block it.  The EU commission is pushing sanctions, an ACT of WAR against Russia.

Maybe you are OK with sending your children and grandchildren to fight another war for the MIC.  I am not.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 08:35 | 4966713 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

Latina Lover, you are plastering ZH with news of victories against the "Ukies". do I really have to provide the links?

which banksters? who's defence companies? China's? I can elucidate a lot, though what I'm missing is your elucidations and sources

the "EU President" is not a guy that has executive powers, veto powers, chief-of-military powers, a "nuclear football" etc. etc. like the US Prez. it's more a kind of secretary chairing the EU Council and getting orders from the Heads of National Governments like the German Chancellor Merkel and the British PM Cameron, who sit there. so who the heck cares how they choose him? He's their secretary (with a bombastic-sounding title)

Yes, the EU Parliament is not allowed to propose anything. That's because the National Parliaments are above it. They choose their Prime Ministers, and they tell the Commission what they want, who then drafts, get's the Council's approval and goes to the EU Parliament to trash it out. What do you want, a United States of Europe? No, thanks. We prefer to keep our members... sovereign. At most, we are on the cusp of a Confederation. Look up the term, it's interesting

Yes, we are under immense American pressure to impose sanctions on Russia. And one sector of the EU, i.e. Poland and the Baltic Nations, together with the UK are pushing, too

No, sanctions are not acts of war. I wish it was so, but the British Empire enforced the view that they aren't, and the US continued this policy

No, I don't wish anybody to send their blood to be spilled for the profit of weapon dealers, or similar base motives

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 09:30 | 4966982 Latina Lover
Latina Lover's picture

Ghordius, I appreciate your thoughtful commentary.

I beg to differ, however, when you state that sanctions are not acts of war.  Frankly, I don't care what the British Empire thinks, they are acts of aggression against other sovereign states.  We can get into diplomatic nuances over semantics but from the Russian perspective, they are perceived as threats against their state.



This is a mistake on the part of the US, and Europe is wise to avoid antagonising an important trading partner and critical energy supplier. The Polish and Baltics are whores, bought and paid by the US state department.


Thu, 07/17/2014 - 09:43 | 4967052 Reptil
Reptil's picture

It seems they're desperate of pulling Russia into the war.
Here's more accusations:

Until they show proof, it's just propaganda. The burden of proof is with the accuser, not the accused.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 08:08 | 4966628 junction
junction's picture

Putin is just looking for an excuse to send in Russian tank columns in eastern Ukraine.  If any of those ultra-nationalists (read mercenaries) on the Kiev payroll cross the Russian border, Russia will respond with full force.  Some in the the New World Order want World War Three and the Ukraine is the preferred powderkeg these days.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 08:26 | 4966680 Johnny Moscow
Johnny Moscow's picture

He's already had more than enough excuses to go in there so I think at this point Russia and just happy to have Crimea back (yep, back bc it was part of Russia for a long time). Thousands of ethnic Russians are fleeing back to the Motherland due to the war and the other day a Russian border town was shelled (Ukraine claims a 'false flag' attack, who knows). 

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 08:38 | 4966726 AdvancingTime
AdvancingTime's picture

I think Putin also wants a land link to his newly regained area in the south. He would get this by taking a small chunk of eastern Ukraine. It seems Putin also does not mind going one on one with Obama a man for whom he shows little love.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 09:42 | 4967048 ChiangMai
Thu, 07/17/2014 - 08:32 | 4966699 AdvancingTime
AdvancingTime's picture

Sometimes it is interesting to note the up and down votes on a comment. It is not always the whole comment that gets a reaction but part of it or how it was interpreted. Very interesting.

In this case it might have to do with who is the aggressor, why they are pushing forward, and what final outcome do they really want.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 08:41 | 4966734 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

indeed. poor paid trolls are overworked, perhaps. they don't have much time to judge who to bash down, I guess. imo, this whole up/down voting biz is childish. I ignore it

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 10:26 | 4967277 BlindMonkey
BlindMonkey's picture

-1 because you miss the fun.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 08:58 | 4966825 ChiangMai
ChiangMai's picture

"Putin is just looking for an excuse to send in Russian tank columns..."

Up to 500,000 civilians have already been forced from their homes by the Ukrainian junta, and Russia has already expertly documented plenty of reasons to intervene; but it's not as short-sighted or criminal as the USA/EU.

By many estimates, Russia could obliterate the Ukrainian military in 48 hours, potentially saving hundreds or thousands of civilians from continued ethnic cleansing by Ukrainian Nazis violently installed as the government by the USA; but in the long-term, millions might die if Russia allows itself to be baited by USA/NATO/EU.

Translation of the "must read" article of explaining why there is no Russian intervention in the Ukraine


[VIDEO - 03:03] Geopolitics has no place for emotions 

IMAGE VERSION (Putin playing chess)



Thu, 07/17/2014 - 09:30 | 4966973 DOT
DOT's picture

Yeah, Saint Vlad wants only to promote peace.

Looks like video has been taken of missle launches from Russia into Ukraine. They must only be warning shots.

The only difference between western Oligarchs is their native language. Putin is not letting this crisis go to waste; you can bet on that.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 10:28 | 4967290 BlindMonkey
BlindMonkey's picture

Warning shots? You must have missed the reports of the Ukrainian army's shells that continuously landed in Russia. Counter battery is full justified and expected.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 11:20 | 4967536 tonyw
tonyw's picture

Maybe you have missed the many videos showing rocket and artillery attacks on the town and villages by the ukrainian army & right wing thugs.

i have looked at two videos shot from different locations and the launch site is not clear.

Also the border there crosses fields so it would be easy for the separatists to launch from russia by moving 100m, it's not like they have a well marked out border crossing the middle of the fields.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 08:14 | 4966640 gold_pa3ot
gold_pa3ot's picture

fuck Russia!

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 08:20 | 4966660 Latina Lover
Latina Lover's picture

Actually, fuck the dumb Ukrainians like yourself who allowed your country to be destroyed by Oligarchs controlled by the USSA, thinking that you will somehow get visa free travel to Europe. Good luck with that, it will never happen.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 07:53 | 4966581 flyonmywall
flyonmywall's picture

No fly zone ! After all, the EU and US do it all the time, so can the Russians.

Fuck you Barry !


Thu, 07/17/2014 - 08:09 | 4966632 Winston Churchill
Winston Churchill's picture

In law ,and fact, unilateral sanctions, are an Act of War.

The Nobel committee had better authorize a War prize soon ,so Obozo can get his second.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 08:19 | 4966653 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

the Dutch Empire had a row with the British Empire on similar grounds, long ago. the first maintained that trading should continue and held sacrosanct, even during war. the second liked embargoes, mainly because it leveraged it's vast fleet's political weight

your namesake transferred this British vision to it's successor Ruler Of The Waves. just a reminder that "International Law" is... consensus, too. sometimes enforced

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 08:33 | 4966706 Winston Churchill
Winston Churchill's picture

Indeed Ghordius.

The oceans are now just killing grounds for any countries surface warships.

A fact that the USN fails to percieve.The world changed with the sinking of the Roya Oak at

Scapa Flow, and the Prince of Wales off Malaysia.

It changed again with missile technology, but will not be acknowledged until the next

naval battle between modern countries.

Admirals especially,but generals also, are alway prepared to fight the last war,not the next one.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 11:22 | 4967546 angel_of_joy
angel_of_joy's picture

Just wait for the first aircraft carrier to get sunk. Then perception will change very quickly.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 09:08 | 4966873 ChiangMai
ChiangMai's picture

More accurately, the US/NATO and EU use "no fly zone" as a term to bamboozle people into naively believing that involves simply making a declaration and sending up a few fighter jets, rather than an excuse for massive bombing as in Libya.

In reality, especially in Ukraine, with extensive anti-aircraft defenses, creating a "no fly zone" without losing every aircraft sent up to enforce it would involve extensive bombing of military airfields and associated ground installations throughout Ukraine; i.e. essentially blowing this up into a full-scale war of Russia vs the Ukraine junta / US / NATO - which is exactly what the US/NATO wants.

But I'm definitely with you on your final sentence!

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 11:51 | 4966584 25or6to4
25or6to4's picture

Interresting times coming in the near future. Long gold, guns, garden and God

Edit: Oh yeah, I forgot Guts. Guts and angry eyes, don't forget your angry eyes.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 07:55 | 4966587 Coldfire
Coldfire's picture

Yes, I would believe every word coming from a guy named Lysenko. But seriously does anyone out there think the MIC is not trying to start WWIII? Cripes.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 07:57 | 4966589 mrblah
mrblah's picture

Weird. seen several sites claim there is a video, yet it isn't...anywhere?

There are one or two of still images claiming to be this, but which look old and remind me of the Georgia conflict, but none of this alleged event.

Are Ukraine now so paranoid they are blaming everything, including an above average amount of flatulence, on Russia?

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 07:56 | 4966592 kowalli
kowalli's picture

you are right, they are blaming everything on Russia...

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 09:39 | 4967024 DOT
DOT's picture

Missle launches are shown in a video. The story asserts that the launch occured within Russia.


Am I sceptical? Hell yes!  But the nature of power remains and Mssr. Putin has shown a talent for showing it off.




Thu, 07/17/2014 - 09:36 | 4967010 ChiangMai
ChiangMai's picture


"Are Ukraine now so paranoid…"

Desperate, I believe, more than paranoid. I like how this tweet puts it  ;-) : 

Panic between NAZI scum begging for NATO or UN help !

#Ukraine woke up & discovered its ALONE.

NO ONE will move A FINGER for NAZI SCUM >:))

Reports are that Ukrainian junta/Nazi units are ripping off their military uniforms and fleeing the battlefield, abandoning dead and wounded — and crossing the border into Russia for medical attention, at the same time as claiming Russia is firing on them!

Here's the best description of the immediate situation in the "south cauldron" that I've seen (dated yesterday):

Disintegration of South Cauldron


The overall headcount of the surrounded junta group is about 5 thousand, out of which about 2-2.5 thousand are combat capable…

The tentative time of the cauldron existence is 3-5 days – everything that won't be able to exit through the bottleneck near Saur-Mogila will be lost for the junta.


Thu, 07/17/2014 - 07:55 | 4966591 kowalli
kowalli's picture

100% blackmail without any proof, need to aprove USA sanctions... like WMD in Iraq...

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 07:56 | 4966593 JustObserving
JustObserving's picture

It's OK for the fascists in Kiev to keep killing civilians as they are supported by the Nobel Prize Winner:

Fascist atrocities mount as US-backed regime assaults eastern Ukraine

By Alex Lantier 
17 July 2014

As the Western-backed regime in Kiev assaults pro-Russian militias in the major cities of eastern Ukraine, mass graves are coming to light in Slavyansk, the former opposition stronghold recently captured by Kiev. The government offensive is unfolding with the support of Washington and the European Union (EU), which yesterday imposed more sanctions to compel Moscow to abandon any support for opposition militias in Ukraine.

Andriy Lysenko, the spokesman for the Kiev regime’s Defense and Security Council, said yesterday that “hundreds of bodies of rebel fighters” had been found in shallow graves. Lysenko claimed some of the graves “have been mined by the terrorists”—apparently implying that some of the dead were killed during the siege of Slavyansk and buried by fellow opposition fighters before Kiev’s forces captured the town. Lysenko refused to give further details.

While the Kiev regime’s bombardment of Slavyansk doubtless caused hundreds of casualties, its own accounts show that the far-right Ukrainian nationalist militias it has mobilized are carrying out a campaign of political terror and murder in Slavyansk. Upon capturing the city, they detained all men between the ages of 25 and 35 on suspicion of supporting or giving aid, including medical aid, to the opposition militias.

On Tuesday, Interior Ministry official Anton Gerashchenko confirmed that two Slavyansk priests had been murdered for supporting opposition forces. “We found a grave of two priests from Slavyansk, who were tortured and killed by the Ukrainian nationalists,” Gerashchenko said. The bodies of two sons of one of the priests were discovered in the same grave as the priests’ mutilated remains.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 08:21 | 4966659 Sean7k
Sean7k's picture

Did you read the article? No proof of anything, possible complicity by either side. All in all, a worthless piece of news. The government in Kiev is the government of the Ukraine, so they have a reason. What is the separatist's excuse? Because they are Russian? Why not just go back to Russia? It was the USSR that transferred their families there in the first place to dilute the Ukrainian nationality.

Condemning the puppets is pretty juvenile. Even Vlad and Barry are just puppets here. Where have the "nationalists" gotten their weapons from? Just had them hanging around? 

If you have a beef, go shoot a NWO advocate or zionist or arms contractor. Or choose to stop posting propaganda. Or stop supporting your warmongering government. 

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 08:23 | 4966671 JustObserving
JustObserving's picture

The government in Kiev is the government of the Ukraine

Have you forgotten that the legal government of Ukraine was overthrown in an illegal putsch supported by the Nobel Prize Winner?

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 08:30 | 4966694 Sean7k
Sean7k's picture

Have you forgot they had an election? You are ignorant of Russian complicity in installing the last government? Or is it a putsch only when the west does it? Or do you really think it matters? There are no good guys here. Just Rabid psychopaths puling our strings. Turning all of humanity into the same pathological murderers they are, so we never lay the blame at their door. You're posting propaganda and attempting to change the subject to deflect its' inanity.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 08:48 | 4966731 JustObserving
JustObserving's picture

 You are ignorant of Russian complicity in installing the last government?

And you are ignorant of Western complicity in installing the new government and for the atrocities in the East.  Hundreds of CIA advisers and American contractors are in Ukraine to bring peace and prosperity.

Dozens Of CIA, FBI Agents "Advising Ukraine Government", German Press Reports

In the clearest sign of intensifying US involvement in the Ukraine crisis, the White House admitted—after vehement denials—that CIA Director John Brennan flew into Kiev over the weekend. Brennan arrived, under a false name, for discussions on how to further exploit the crisis that the US and its allies deliberately triggered by orchestrating the February coup.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 08:55 | 4966815 Sean7k
Sean7k's picture

No, I'm well aware we installed a government, one which was willing to give Russia a permanent naval base on the Black Sea. Somethnig Russia has wanted for ages. You appear to be the one so caught up in the propaganda, you fail to recognize this is nothing more than pre-arranged warfare to create profits, kill useless eaters and determine resource routes and whom will own them. Your outrage is either fabricated or infantile. 

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 09:09 | 4966862 JustObserving
JustObserving's picture

you fail to recognize this is nothing more than pre-arranged warfare to create profits

So you are saying that Russians wanted this war and a Western-backed government run by the CIA on their doorstep?

You are far more paranoid than you imagine. Or stupider than you imagine.  Luckily, fools are the last to know they are fools.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 09:11 | 4966899 layman_please
layman_please's picture

Every ruler welcomes the threat of war, if not the war itself. Nothing better to consolidate power over populace through the fear for the common enemy. History 101. Don't be naïve.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 09:15 | 4966911 JustObserving
JustObserving's picture

So USA would welcome a Russian-backed Mexico on its border?  Don't be daft.

Of course, countries need enemies but it is better if they are a bit far away and not an imminent threat on their borders.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 09:38 | 4966937 layman_please
layman_please's picture

I'm talking about rulers, both shadowy and elected, not about countries. Big difference.

USA is not a conscious entity. It won't welcome anything. Try to make up your mind who you are talking about.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 09:30 | 4966977 Sean7k
Sean7k's picture

You are either an imbecile or determined to be obtuse. What part of patriotism as a propaganda motivator do you not understand? Russia would be a threat, but millions of latin nationals is not? 

Countries don't need enemies, they are useful tools to manipulate the people. Have you met a Russian? Or Mexican? Or Italian? I have. They are nice people, honest, hardworking and concerned about their loved ones and future. You have to turn them into glibbering, drooling instruments of death. Patriotism and Statism are drugs to fuel violent passions best turned to hard work and production. However, the Elites can't profit from that, so we get war and death and disease and pollution, four riders spreading their apocalypse. 

You are just another tool, unwittingly or not, to further the mayhem and murder. Nice job, do you sleep well at night?

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 09:54 | 4967094 layman_please
layman_please's picture

Actually, the very reason this, and numerous other conflicts around the globe are suddenly picking up, is that elites exploitation of people's hard work and production has finally ran its course and they need to shift gears. Presenting, WOAR.

Of course this is no news for most of you, but we have few slow ones here.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 09:21 | 4966938 Sean7k
Sean7k's picture

Well, you need to consider: The CIA is run by MI6, which is the enforcer for the British aristocracy, funded by drug sales via the British East India company and now the crown corporation in London. Working with the zionists to create the Soviet revolution and government, they went on to start WII, complete the pacification of America via FDR and turn world communism on every western nation, China and India in order to create a world of debt slaves with no where to run. 

Yet, you think this is about Russia and the CIA? What a rube...

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 10:01 | 4967161 JustObserving
JustObserving's picture

The CIA is run by MI6

Care to back this up with any reference not made up in your paranoid mind?

Show proof or forever keep your peace

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 10:07 | 4967193 Sandmann
Sandmann's picture

That would be funny since the CIa is simply another US Bureaucracy with only about 10% staff being field agents

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 10:14 | 4967216 Sean7k
Sean7k's picture

"The World Order" by Eustace Mullins

"The Committee of 300" by Coleman

There are many others. You might want to open up your tiny little mind to the reality that surrounds you.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 10:42 | 4967351 Victor999
Victor999's picture

I have read the Committee of 300 and so am somewhat familiar with Coleman and his ilk.  People like him generally select real facts, but utterly fail to provide evidence for the connections they make between those facts.  In other words, they draw their own unsupported conclusions and people like you eat that stuff up.  I have rarely seen two facts connected by these folks where the connection between the facts was supported by documents.  Perhaps I am wrong.  But I don't think so.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 11:10 | 4967457 Sean7k
Sean7k's picture

Not a single fact supportive of your argument. At least Coleman does use citations to most of his work. However, I try to use other materials rather than depend on one author. I cited only two of many. Try your propaganda elsewhere.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 10:55 | 4967372 rwe2late
rwe2late's picture

per Sean7k

"we installed a [Ukraine] government, one which was willing to give Russia a permanent naval base on the Black Sea. Somethnig Russia has wanted for ages. You appear to be the one so caught up in the propaganda..."


 The agreement that  Yanukovych rejected would have required Ukraine to participate/follow NATO policies (losing any semblance of neutrality with regard to Russia).

That rejected agreement would have also required Ukraine to submit to EU-IMF dictated economic "reforms".

The attempted portrayal of the proposed agreement as being unfairly rejected is deceptive and inaccurate. And the attempt to imply that Russia must therefore be the instigator because the coup was "neutral" is patently ridiculous.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 11:11 | 4967467 Sean7k
Sean7k's picture

Yanukovych was installed by Russia. If you won't take the time to go back and read the history, there isn't much point in discussion.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 09:00 | 4966809 layman_please
layman_please's picture

That is the truth. TPTB, that are above all the governments involved, are trying to initiate the WW3 and we are picking sides here?

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 10:35 | 4967323 Victor999
Victor999's picture

What Russian complcity in installing the last government?  They had a general election, closely monitored by internation organisations.  It was a fair elections (at least as fair as you can get with a demovcracy). 


But you are correct - in the larger scheme of things, it is the elite who are pulling all the strings, dividing us all against each other with false ideologies and generally causing public chaos for theirt own profit and increase of power.  And behind most of the elite you find the tribe.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 08:33 | 4966688 Latina Lover
Latina Lover's picture

Sean 7K,Aside from the fact that the USSR incorporated provinces that were part of Russia into the Ukraine, and not just families, my real question to you is why do you believe it is OK for governments to kill their own citizens to maintain an artificial construct called a nation? Ever ask yourself who really benefits? It seems you get this from the last part of your post, but the opening paragraph contradicts your final statements. No matter, I agree with you for the most part.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 08:50 | 4966784 Sean7k
Sean7k's picture

Following WWII the soviets transferred large numbers of native russians into all their new territories to maintain political control, while transferring natives into russia- taking valued properties and businesses. Study history much?

As for your other remark, if you are going to defend or criticize State actions, you must first recognize a State exists and has responsibilities. That being said, Ukraine is defending its' citizens. What is Russia's excuse?

Finally, all States are totalitarian constructs. I think my views on this subject are pretty well known by now. However, yours is a lame attempt to cast aspersions on the meat of my comment without providing any real argument- more propaganda. 

While it is ALWAYS the people which suffer, the nationalists did take up arms and are killing Ukrainians, neighbors and families. They had a choice and chose to murder others for some delusional provocation. There are no innocents here. Just people raised on violence and mayhem, only too eager to kill. We have become the enemy and it is always so lovely to hear the cheering sections erupt on this site.

Putin is a tyrant. The US are tyrants. The Europeans are tyrants, et al. The responsibility resides with the people to stop these actions. No government fights in the field. Its' leaders hide behind the luxury of Elite wealth and encourage the sacrifice of their virgins, safe from the violence. The People must say no more, but they don't, do they? Just eager morons with a death fetish. Patriots? That's the term, yes? Don't we throw them parades? Celebrate sacrifice? Light an eternal flame? Raise statues and memorials? ...


Thu, 07/17/2014 - 09:00 | 4966840 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

well, Russia's excuse is that some citizens of Ukraine feel they are Russians. which makes them Patriots, too

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 09:39 | 4967021 Sean7k
Sean7k's picture

They're Russians because the Soviets deposited them there after WWII. 

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 09:44 | 4967064 Circle of DNA
Circle of DNA's picture

They're Russians, because this is used to be Russia not so long ago. These people were living there way before America was discovered.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 10:16 | 4967229 Sean7k
Sean7k's picture

And befoe the tribe of Moscow princes? European history is a dance of many different ruling families. Ukrainians are insulted when you call them russian.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 10:30 | 4967298 Victor999
Victor999's picture

You are talking about Ukraininas with an essentially Polish and Galician background, I think - mostly in the Western stretches of Ukraine.  Most of what is today Ukraine used to the the original Russia, including its original capital Kiev.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 11:17 | 4967509 Sean7k
Sean7k's picture

"A History of Europe" by Davies. We might hve to include the Romans, Tatars, Cossacks, Persians, Turks and others. The use of the argument that because a person claims a nationality, therefore justifies warfare is just Hitler all over again. Oh wait, Putin isn't a nazi or is he? These type of arguments are beyod the pale...

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 10:27 | 4967286 Victor999
Victor999's picture

Kiev used to be Russian, in fact the capital of Russia - indeed, it is referred to as the mother of all Russian cities.  Russian roots run deep in Ukraine.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 09:03 | 4966854 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

"all States are totalitarian constructs"... except when they have the Rule of Law, preferrably with democratic principles, etc. etc.

please humour an old man and give me your freshest example of European Tyranny

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 09:16 | 4966915 layman_please
layman_please's picture


Thu, 07/17/2014 - 09:47 | 4967084 Sean7k
Sean7k's picture

Please show me how the rule of law and democracy have deterred tyranny? Every nation with these principles are bastions of tyranny. It is law that is the means by which tyranny is protected and enshrined. It is the law that is practiced by the politicians, politicians bought and sold by Elites to do their bidding (as you noted above). 

Democracy is mob rule. Even with a Constitutio and Bill of Rights, the tyranny is enforced through court rulings, often in violation of the lawof the Constitution.

It is in the results we find the true goals of the machinery of the State and tyranny is the rule. 

Britain is tyranny personified, the cameras, the taxes, the water cannons, etc. The takings of taxes in excess of fifty percent are historically outrageous and you know it. The accumulation of State debt is tyranny for future generations which will have to pay for debt they never voted for.

Please provide an exaomple where tyranny does not exist.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 10:10 | 4967204 Sandmann
Sandmann's picture

You are right. Democracy = Ochlocracy which is why no society until the mid-20th century ever tried it.

It was an experiment to buy off the survivors of World War One after using the Conscription of manpower introduced by the Levee en Masse of the French Revolution.

Britain introduced Conscription (except in Ireland) 1916 and extended the franchise 1918 to

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 11:18 | 4967507 layman_please
layman_please's picture

 the cameras, the taxes, the water cannons, etc. "

may i go on?


financial neo-colonialism under the auspices of the city of london corporation and the crown corporation sole

iraq, afgan war etc


DA-notice (censorship)

ruling class (politicians etc) pedophile rings

bank bailouts/austerity

free labour for multinationals (slavery)

zero-hour contracts

privatisation of public assets (royal mail, NHS etc) to multinationals (i know, i know, privatisation)

i'm not going to mention all the occult cults

these are just the few off the top of my head

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 08:53 | 4966800 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

counterquestion: do you deny the existence of the Ukrainian Nation? of the French Nation? of the German Nation? of the Russian Nation? of the Scottish Nation? how about the Greek Nation? the Portuguese Nation?

perhaps some Nations are more artificial than others, I agree on that. yet "artificial" is a dangerous word. it implies something that is human-made, opposed to "natural". like art

fact is that when the Nation calls, some grab their arms to defend it (or her, in the case of the Russian Rodina)

a flag is a kind of tribal totem. nevertheless, sacrosanct to it's believers. holiness is in the eyes and hearts of the believers

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 09:29 | 4966971 Mabussur
Mabussur's picture

Referring to Ukraine as "the Ukraine" pretty much invalidates any opinion you may have on the subject of "the Ukraine". You might as well be drooling.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 11:26 | 4967576 Brit_Abroad
Brit_Abroad's picture

Well I believe what he is saying is right.

The Ukraine - wrong

The Ukrainian Nation/State - right


See what he did there ?

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 07:57 | 4966594 Infinite QE
Infinite QE's picture

Now it's more than time for Russia to shoot down the planes carrying the Zionist oligarch front men for Rothschild who are orchestrating this whole circus.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 08:00 | 4966608 mrblah
mrblah's picture

Rothschilds are too busy in Kurdistan.

Genel Energy, there new little oil company, is set to make an absolute fortune if the Iraqi state loses control of Kurdistan, and they no longer have to pay a fee to Iraq.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 07:59 | 4966605 supersajin
supersajin's picture

I'm trippin on this ad I see "Protect the Growler"

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 08:01 | 4966612 ThisIsBob
ThisIsBob's picture

I'll see your sanctions and I'll raise you some air-to-air missles.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 08:03 | 4966614 Smegley Wanxalot
Smegley Wanxalot's picture

I see Oblowhard's well-thought-thru sanctions are having their intended effect of showing Putin who's boss.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 08:06 | 4966621 Bioscale
Bioscale's picture

One of dozens of lies of the motherfuckers in Kiev.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 08:10 | 4966634 gold_pa3ot
gold_pa3ot's picture

ruskie bitch, go fuck yourself!

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 09:55 | 4966956 Bioscale
Bioscale's picture

Dude, don't be an asshole. But I understand your reaction if you belong to those loosers managing the civil war in eastern Ukraine financed by IMF.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 08:12 | 4966622 lakecity55
lakecity55's picture




Russians 1
NAZIs     0

All they have to do is have a guy radio or call in the planes after they are loaded, report take off time and direction. Within 30 seconds, the marked ac is on Russian Radar.

In 60 seconds, it's shot down if they want it shot down.

I want to see Vlad stomp NAZIs, because Bath House Barry needs to lose so TPTB will get rid of him.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 08:07 | 4966626 Urban Redneck
Urban Redneck's picture

What side of the Russian border, and how far from the border (in seconds) was this plane that was apparently shot down?

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 08:16 | 4966644 NoDebt
NoDebt's picture

If there were any details to this story, maybe we could answer that question.  I was thinking it depends on what your definition of "near" is.  "Near", like right on it?  Near like past it on the Russian side?  Or near like how the US Border Patrol agents offices are 40+ miles from the border?

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 08:45 | 4966748 AdvancingTime
AdvancingTime's picture

It might depend on your definition of is! God bless our politically correct society and the mian stream media.

 I'm instantly reminded of the famous response Bill Clinton gave to a question during an interview, "it all depends on your definition of is. "Welcome to the world of spin media. More on this subject in the article below.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 08:08 | 4966630 AdvancingTime
AdvancingTime's picture

 In reality America has few military options in Russia's backyard unless it has the backing of a full and enthusiastic NATO and that is very unlikely. Europe has reason to be unexcited about a possible long and expensive conflict. While still trying to recover from a recession Europe would face fuel shortages and a massive spike in the price of natural gas. 

Currently Russia supplies much of the gas used in Europe, this gives Putin a great deal of leverage. If an actual ground attack were to occur few see the Russians as likely to rollover as other armies have when America approaches. More on this subject in the article below.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 08:09 | 4966631 gold_pa3ot
gold_pa3ot's picture

Fuck Putin! Fuck Russia!

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 08:30 | 4966693 Latina Lover
Latina Lover's picture



It sounds like you've been eating too many of Nuland/Nudelmans cookies.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 08:35 | 4966712 darkpool2
darkpool2's picture

Just leave this site.....there' s a minimum IQ requirement, and sorry, you dont qualify.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 10:04 | 4967177 DOT
DOT's picture

Am i the only one who gets "access denied" when looking up our erstwhile poster above?

It seems there are more than the usual newbies showing up today. ( <10 wks )

More eyeballs are good, however, and educational opportunities abound on the Hedge.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 08:12 | 4966637 BaghdadBob
BaghdadBob's picture

Nope - Engine failure due to lack of spares parts available from the manufacturer, in Russia - Not quite as headline grabbing as 'Shot Down', but then sometimes the truth is a lot more boring than fiction. Nothing to see here....

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 08:15 | 4966641 McCormick No. 9
McCormick No. 9's picture

Don't worry. Winter is coming.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 08:17 | 4966646 Johnny Moscow
Johnny Moscow's picture

So let me get this straight. When a Russian border town is shelled its of course a 'false flag' attack by ethnic Russian 'terrorists.' And when some jet gets shot down (who knows if it happened) it's gotta be Russians but this time it's the actual Russkies, who, you know, STILL haven't intervened in Eastern Ukraine despite all the ethnic Russians fleeing the country and countless stories about widespread violence on the part of both sides. Not sure what to believe but sure looks like the Ukrainian nationalists are getting some pretty darn good mainstream press coverage. Basically it's ALWAYS Russia's fault and everyone in the Western Press buys it hook, line & sinker. 

The Nation and Guardian (both lefty) seem to be the only ones actively reporting on the Nationalist aggresive tactics & lies...I guess if the Western Press does that its just bad for trade/business??

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 10:06 | 4967191 ross81
ross81's picture

maybe a select few reporters in these publications are (like the Guardian's Milne), but the editorial policy in general seems to be 'demonise Russia'. These outlets represent the liberal interventionist brigade. The problem with Russia though is that it can defend itself (unlike say Syria or to a much greater extent Libya & Iraq previously), thus the liberal intervensionists can only really talk about sanctions, and not bombs.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 11:37 | 4967679 rwe2late
Thu, 07/17/2014 - 08:31 | 4966647 alustoon
alustoon's picture

Ukrainian forces are loosing big. No wonder that the lies out of Kiev gettin' bigger and bolder. Of course, Russia will do everything within the CIA term ''plausible deniability''. And right so!!

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 08:18 | 4966650 lakecity55
lakecity55's picture

"Today Germany announced a New Defense Treaty with The Russian Federation.

German Technical Hardware and Experts will relocate to Russia. Russia agrees to direct Gold Exchange with Germany in exchange for bi-lateral military technology."

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 08:23 | 4966673 Winston Churchill
Winston Churchill's picture

That will be real soon enough,so don't spoof it please,otherwise it will be

lost in the chaff.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 08:23 | 4966670 Global Observer
Global Observer's picture

While I distrust the Kiev regime, it is not beyond possibility that Russia would down Ukrainian planes over Donbas and even deny such actions. Donbas rebels hold no chance if Kiev starts shelling them from air. By taking air cover out of the equation, Russia forces Kiev to restrict any operations to ground which will be a stalemate, unless there is overt intervention by outside forces, NATO or Russia. When Kiev forces take enough casualties, Kiev will be willing to look at the problem differently.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 08:44 | 4966754 loonyleft
loonyleft's picture

stalemate until winter

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 09:25 | 4966955 RazvanM
RazvanM's picture

Why do you distrust "the Kiev regime"? And what do you mean by "regime"?

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 10:16 | 4967223 Victor999
Victor999's picture

Kiev has been shelling them from the air, and the self-defence forces have done quite well in spite of that, even shooting several planes, helicopters and military transport fromn the skies from time to time.  Stalemate?  I am now coming to the conclusion that a stalemate is the BEST Kiev can hope for.  The anti-Kiev forces are proving to be far superior though heavily outmanned by the Kiev forces.  Indeed, the are routing the Kiev forces even as we type.  They will soon go on the offensive I believe with their guerilla tactics.  According to their brilliant leader, they hope eventually to get the Ukrainina army on their side soon after the Nazi generals are hung for their failures.  And then it's on to Kiev, mother of all Russias.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 08:26 | 4966681 Kawaii Empress ...
Kawaii Empress Natalia Poklonskaya's picture

It's bull. Though to be fair the Russians may have been firing GRADs from their territory (Gukovo- go to liveleek or militaryphotos butthurt thread to view evidence and discussion), not that I am against that in the slightest. Every one of the scum that is firing artillery on densly populated non military targets (that is civilians, particularly kids) deserves the worst and I view them as equally bad as that of IDF and US drone brigade. The freedom figthers are to be admired though they have gotten their early Christmas presents and are using artillery better than most armies (no doubt with some help from across the border- locations etc.)

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 08:39 | 4966717 WTFUD
WTFUD's picture

You will only hear the puppet fascists bleating when in receipt of an ass- kicking or significant loss backed-up by some sympathetic MSM BS. Forget the cookies Nuland and bring gloves and scarves on your next trip over CUNT.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 09:01 | 4966844 robertocarlos
robertocarlos's picture

Play with bull, get horn.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 09:29 | 4966969 RazvanM
RazvanM's picture

ZeroHedge proves that the Russian propaganda is way better than Ukraine and Western propaganda.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 09:30 | 4966972 Smiley
Smiley's picture


Thu, 07/17/2014 - 09:33 | 4966988 FlyinHigh
FlyinHigh's picture

IF... That's a BIG  IF ! This is true i.e. plane to plane missile ? It's unprovoked over Ukraine land. Very big difference then ground to air missile. Ukraine has every right in the world to fly over it's own property. Just like any other country.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 10:53 | 4967393 oudinot
oudinot's picture

But they  certainly do not have the right to bomb their own citizens!

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 10:06 | 4967185 Victor999
Victor999's picture

Actually, war with Ukraine is the last thing Putin wants.  What would he gain?  A severely troubled and bankrupt nation - best leave that burden in the hands of the US government. 

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 11:11 | 4967398 gcjohns1971
gcjohns1971's picture

He would gain Europe by the balls (Gernany).

South Stream is not a done deal.  Ukrainian pipelines are the incumbent.

Energy transit was to be Urkaine's primary source of income.  Since 2004, Ukraine has been trying to have more than one supplier to improve its ability to negotiate transit fees.  Until Ukraine can say, "Well, if you won't pay us a higher transit fee, we'll give the energy contract to someone else", they have no leverage.

Until that time Ukraine (financially) must do what Russia demands, without limits.  It is in Russia's best interest to keep that situation as it is.  Higher transit fees would raise the end market price.  In the case of gas, that would make it less competetive against Liquified Natural Gas.

So, Russia remains the monopoly energy supplier to Ukrainian pipelines.  And Ukraine has a near monopoly on Russian Energy delivery to Europe.  The amount that goes through North Stream is tiny in comparrison.  So, Russia and Ukraine are stuck with one another in a situation where one's gain is the other's loss.

If Ukraine doesn't like the fees, they provoke Russia to shut down the pipeline - which also cuts Russia's income.  Then Russia will pay more for transit fees, but ask for more in return for Energy - resulting in  zero gain to either side.  And the frustration grows on both sides.

This is one reason why Ukraine has not been more economically developed.  And the alignment with Russia provides young Ukrainians with fewer options of where they can expatriate to earn money overseas.   For East Ukrainians this is less of a problem.  They go to Russia and Moldova.

West Ukrainians want to go West...but can't. Combine that lack of freedom with generally poor economic conditions in Western Ukraine and it creates the ingredients for a revolt.

Both sides have been playing hard-ball for a long time.   Keep in mind that all these people were working TOGETHER AS PART OF THE SAME STATE ENERGY COMPANIES less than 25 years ago.  This is PERSONAL for them - on both sides.

If you look at old GAZPROM records you'd see that Tymoshenko and Mevedev used to be rivals - and Medvedev eventually won and became her boss.  That is not an isolated case.

And this is a MAJOR reason why Russia is, was, and will remain dead set against closer Ukrainian ties with Europe... It threatens Russia's MAIN SOURCE OF INCOME (at least until Ukrainian pipelines can be 100% replaced by South Stream or something else).

At the heart of the whole conflict are two issues: 

1) Ukraine is internally culturally divided between East and West because of historic reasons (Golden Horde conquered the East,  Europe kept the West)

2) Ukraine's financial interests and Russia's are 180 degrees opposite one another with respect to Energy. 

Watching this conflict is watching a family fight.  When brother and sister fight, it is best for neighbors to stay out of it and go home.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 10:06 | 4967187 Sandmann
Sandmann's picture

Ukrainian pilots seem to be good at hitting civilians but stunned when their planes fall out of the sky. Probably faulty maintenance. The Russians could probably switch off the aircraft remotely since they built it.

Why doesn't someone tell these clowns to get their economy in order and stop trying to play Austro-Hungary in 1914 trying to embroil Germany in conflict. Ukraine is so wasteful on energy that noone can afford to sustain them.....before winter they should be getting plans in place to provide coal

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 10:10 | 4967202 Fix It Again Timmy
Fix It Again Timmy's picture

From the Ukrainian Air Force Flight Manual:

"Once you see a Russian fighter, PULL Ejection Lever..."

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 10:32 | 4967231 earleflorida
earleflorida's picture

Good for you Mr. Vlad

This containment strategy that 'Kennan' talked about, did it not create a huge global chasm, or as bandied about in todays rhetorical circles... a super`Nova glorious 'power vacuum?', to be exploited? by a Nth`degree... as in, 'carrying coals to Newcastle!'  Was it not the infamous Dulles brothers brainchild, tethered to the Marshall (Mission unaccomplished?) Plan, with Ike and his hypocritical Nixon oaf's messaging the machiavellian ME Doctrine, taylored to the Monroe/Truman solipsism... bemoaning the MIC, whilst fighting the wrong war, at the wrong time, with the wrong enemy in Truman's War in Korea via Ike's bestest buddy MacArthur the 'slaughter`R-extraordinaire'.

but its aOK, for the Suez... and those nasty greedy, 'give em an inch of their hook'd nose, and the entire camel's under the tent', Israel... to destroy those indepndent thinking Eqyptians and Palestinian-- all the while the supreme's  champions'cause of anti-colonialism is spread throughout the rich-resourceful world of the 'Nile Valley' to the breadbasket of the Caucasus downtrodden'd Tatar?topper's-- let Kiev cheer of its glorious pasture of Germanic patronization.

tis a shame for the Nazi's loss?... and that of fascist Italian's that America forgot was in the Axis...? how Rome's Vatican sways the toe`line with Satan?!? 

Goooo  Putin!!!


Thu, 07/17/2014 - 10:58 | 4967412 JohnFrodo
JohnFrodo's picture

Speaking of fighter jets, the flying Unicorn (F35) may have finally meet a law of nature it could not market its way over. The single engine must genearate the thrust of two engines in other similar sized craft. The laws of thermodynamics and statistical probability dictate this means it will be less reliable than two engines. The reality distortion field once again defeated by reality. It s very intersting time to see all the reality busting devices failing like farabochi dominoes.


Thu, 07/17/2014 - 12:09 | 4967997 gcjohns1971
gcjohns1971's picture

Laws of thermodynamics means it will be less reliable?  I don't know anything about the engine.  But I do know something about thermodynamics.  And there is nothing there about reliability.

The laws of statistical probability dictate it will be less reliable than two engines?  Nonsense.  Two engines means double the chance of substandard or worn parts, double the complexity, double the chance of  failure.  

If you meant to indicate an equal chance of engine failure and an increased chance that the engine failure would be catasrophic... maybe.  But a single engine also means you have less weight and a better glide ratio.

It is a tradeoff.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 11:29 | 4967587 gcjohns1971
gcjohns1971's picture

Maybe Russians shot it down.  Maybe they didn't.

People need to know that borders that are obvious on the road are often not so obvious from the air.   There's no map on the ground to show EXACTLY where the line is.  Pilots cross borders accidentally all the time.

In this case EVERY SIDE has good reasons to hug the border closely.  The East Ukrainians would be wise to hug the border with Russia, because it gives the Kiev Ukrainains one more thing to worry about.  Can they strike or not?

The Kiev Ukrainians would be wise to operate close to the border so that the East Ukrainians can't use it as a safe area.

In the mean time, Russia is concerned about what comes across that particular border and has little margin for error.   Their Air Defense batteries have to make an instant decision.  An SU-25 could be deep into Russia in a few seconds.  

It doesn't take a genius to see how easy it would be when the border is not highly visible from the air.  The plane would be radar locked as he came to the border, and if he crossed even for a second the missile would be after him.   Once fired it is not highly controllable from the ground.  It could chase him back to Ukraine.

That presumes it really was a Russian missile.  But it could be an Eastern Ukrainain missile, too.

Kiev would have every reason to assume it was Russian - and to announce it as Russian even if it weren't - because their interest is for there to be pressure against Russia.

The East Ukrainians have a motive to claim it was Russian, even if they were the ones who fired.  They NEED Russia to get involved.  Their whole strategy depends on it.

The Russians have every reason to say it is not Russian, whether or not it was.

So what is the point of the story?

None really.   When brother and sister fight, it is best not to get involved.

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