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What The Sky Above Ukraine Looks Like Right Now

Tyler Durden's picture




 

With virtually every airline now avoiding to fly above east Ukraine like the airborne version of the plague (observed recently in Denver) for obvious reasons, here is a snapshot of what the sky over east Ukraine looks like courtesy of FlightRadar 24.

It is, in brief, a ghost sky.

The highlighted plane belong to Ukraine Airlines. All the other, yellow, ones are doing their best to fly well inside Russian borders.

 

And zoomed out:

The real-time interactive map can be found here.

 

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Thu, 07/17/2014 - 15:00 | 4969361 BeetleBailey
BeetleBailey's picture

where's the orange cones - or the Bob's Barricades?

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 15:03 | 4969372 Manthong
Manthong's picture

I decided to post this one more time..

The only planes over Ukraine will be Ukrainian and US State Department flights.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 15:12 | 4969459 max2205
max2205's picture

i would say so

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 17:45 | 4970298 db51
db51's picture

Fuck me....I'm looking at that map and it looks like a swarm of fucking bees.   How in hell do they keep from running into each other.  As soon as a hot Stewardess goes into the COCKpit,, or some coke high pilot runs a line, there will be another debris field.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 19:04 | 4970718 kaiserhoff
kaiserhoff's picture

White Russia (Belarus) isn't looking too prosperous,

  and who shot down what over Libya?  Interesting snap shot of where business is still conducted, regardless of all the problems.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 19:16 | 4970775 old naughty
old naughty's picture

Most-direct-route no longer internationally"protected"?

Control shut down? 

All hell breaks?

Foolish Malaysians (all others as well)?

World not the same, after 2014.07.17 ?

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 19:59 | 4970999 Thanatos
Thanatos's picture

Listen.

Smell It? Stinks like another Malaysian 777?

Is it Another Malaysian 777?

What do I know? What they tell me?

Funny how the pics of this plane and the one that crashed at Shanksville?, PA are similar, yet there are HUGE pieces of this plane and only little teeny weeny pieces of that plane the bad men took over. And this plane was hit by a missile!

What do we know about this event?

Nothing other than a plane came down and one side (NATO) confirms it was a missile that hit it AFAIC.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 15:26 | 4969538 Rinzler
Rinzler's picture

And at this moment, Air Force One is on its way to another fundraiser...

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 16:17 | 4969870 Spitzer
Spitzer's picture

So the rebels can't shoot over 10k feet. Who shot the plane down ?

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 17:57 | 4970373 franzpick
franzpick's picture

Pretty evident to me, that Victoria Nuland's hand-selected putsch "government", headed by the American-puppet warlord Poroshenko, all recently 'funded' by u.s./EU sources, were responsible for assembling the team and equipment necessary to launch a BUK missle attack, requiring a command vehicle, a radar acquisition vehicle, 6 erector vehicles and 3 transporter vehicles.

This was a multi-person, planned and deliberate attack, not a one-man, shoulder-fired shot.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buk_missile_system

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 19:17 | 4970618 DOT
DOT's picture

Another account of events:

 

Those damn kids!

 

(edit  ;)

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 18:51 | 4970624 HelluvaEngineer
HelluvaEngineer's picture

Just saw this.  Not vetted.  Likely BS, just sharing.

Malaysian Airlines MH17 plane was travelling almost the same route as Russia’s President Vladimir Putin’s jet shortly before the crash that killed 295, Interfax news agency reports citing sources.“I can say that Putin’s plane and the Malaysian Boeing intersected at the same point and the same echelon. That was close to Warsaw on 330-m echelon at the height of 10,100 meters. The presidential jet was there at 16:21 Moscow time and the Malaysian aircraft – 15:44 Moscow time,” a source told the news agency on condition of anonymity.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 18:51 | 4970625 DOT
Thu, 07/17/2014 - 20:49 | 4971257 New_Meat
New_Meat's picture

No. 9, twer like f/l 33

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 19:45 | 4970904 Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

I'd make a nice campaign contribution if it flies over that region. 

As a good will gesture, you understand.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 18:51 | 4970629 free_as_in_beer
free_as_in_beer's picture

It would be more meaningful if we saw it compared to 1 year ago.  I doubt there was that much traffic to begin with, where would it be headed?

Do people really think they chart air travel like a car drives around a detour?

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 20:17 | 4971103 tvdog
tvdog's picture

The plane was en route from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 19:55 | 4970947 Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

Tyler, let's have the Passenger and Cargo Manifest for that flight ASAP, please.

It sure would be a shame to have some interesting factors overlooked in the political chatter and noise of the event.

p.s. My info suggests that CIA's shoulder-fired Surface-to-Air missile had a range of 7 miles (11 km) during the Russia-Afghan war.  Don't see why a modified one could not take down the plane, even at 38,000 feet, if fired at the right vertical angle.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 15:03 | 4969364 Z_End
Z_End's picture

Cui bono?

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 15:07 | 4969418 mastersnark
mastersnark's picture

"Cui gives a shit. It's got a bow on it."

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 16:19 | 4969879 PSEUDOLOGOI
PSEUDOLOGOI's picture

Russia

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 19:46 | 4970917 Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

A guy named Petro.  Petro Dollar. 

And his sponsors and friends.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 21:59 | 4971574 nmewn
nmewn's picture

Well, its not exactly Syria (scroll down on the map) but its "progress" if one is worried about CO2...lol.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 15:01 | 4969367 NOTaREALmerican
NOTaREALmerican's picture

The sky at night, is big and bright...

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 15:58 | 4969723 BeetleBailey
BeetleBailey's picture

ok....I'll bite...

DEEP IN THE HEART, OF YOU-CRANE!!!!!!!!

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 15:02 | 4969371 Rican
Rican's picture

All a ploy for Ukraine Airlines to avoid traffic.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 15:13 | 4969461 NoPantsSpongeBob
NoPantsSpongeBob's picture

Avoid delays with Ukrainian Airlines. Book your flight today!

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 19:23 | 4970815 Squid-puppets a...
Squid-puppets a-go-go's picture

and if you were still invested in malaysian airlines before last night, serves you right

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 15:02 | 4969374 mayhem_korner
mayhem_korner's picture

 

 

Shooting down planes - interesting means of border patrol.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 15:06 | 4969403 duo
duo's picture

I guess no one remembers Iran Air 655

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 22:31 | 4971069 mjcOH1
mjcOH1's picture

"I guess no one remembers Iran Air 655"

Clearly you have found the answer.   There was an Aegis cruiser steaming north in the passing lane on the M07.   And BAM.....another plane shot down with Ukrainian separatists as the fall guys.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 15:17 | 4969479 umdesch4
Thu, 07/17/2014 - 15:47 | 4969662 TeethVillage88s
TeethVillage88s's picture

Buk Missile System doesn't seem to have the official range to his this new Malaysian airline either.

I think official statements are deliberately misleading in all these international incidents.

Looks we have private military contractors, and private space exploration companies, and private satellites in orbit.

Who is to say who owns Space weapons these days?

George Soros
Rupert Murdock
Dick Cheney
Ted Turner
David Rockefeller
China
USA
Israel
France
Russia

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 20:52 | 4971267 New_Meat
New_Meat's picture

Assface, u kan luk up SA-17 or SA-22 on duh wiki-thang 'n' see that u have ur hed up ur azz,

Oh, wait, wit ur hed up ur azz, u kand luk up notz

zorry 4 wast ur timz

-neD

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 15:50 | 4969682 TeethVillage88s
TeethVillage88s's picture

Buk Missile System doesn't seem to have the official range to his this new Malaysian airline either.

I think official statements are deliberately misleading in all these international incidents.

Looks we have private military contractors, and private space exploration companies, and private satellites in orbit.

Who is to say who owns Space weapons these days?

George Soros
Rupert Murdock
Dick Cheney
Ted Turner
David Rockefeller
China
USA
Israel
France
Russia

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 15:40 | 4969620 TeethVillage88s
TeethVillage88s's picture

No, I didn't remember that at all.

Nine months after the downing of Iran Air Flight 655, on March 10, 1989, Rogers' wife Sharon escaped with her life when a pipe bomb attached to her minivan exploded, while she was driving.[5] The van was recorded in the name of Will Rogers III,

It is like CIA stuff.

But Navy plays these kind of games all the time. I guess that was the end of the Reagan term when USA Claimed to control the whole Mid-East through our Navy.

Was just thinking an Alpha Male Commander with no Fighter Jets to observe the Airline up close might just trigger the missiles to protect his ship.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 18:07 | 4970401 Manthong
Manthong's picture

Nor TWA 800.

~ 90 days before the 1996 election.

Fri, 07/18/2014 - 08:40 | 4972691 Jorgen
Jorgen's picture

... nor KAL007

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KAL007#mediaviewer/File:KAL007.svg

The Soviet Union initially denied knowledge of the incident,[2] but later admitted the shootdown, claiming that the aircraft was on a spy mission.[3] The Politburo said it was a deliberate provocation by the United States[4] to test the Soviet Union's military preparedness, or even to provoke a war.

[...]

The incident was one of the tensest moments of the Cold War and resulted in an escalation of anti-Soviet sentiment, particularly in the United States.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 15:03 | 4969375 _ConanTheLibert...
_ConanTheLibertarian_'s picture

Tyler, the FlightRadar 24 link is interesting but wrong.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 15:02 | 4969376 bpj
Thu, 07/17/2014 - 15:07 | 4969386 OMG
OMG's picture

Well now who shot that plane down?

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 16:13 | 4969835 Iriestx
Iriestx's picture

CIA

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 16:13 | 4969837 Iriestx
Iriestx's picture

CIA

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 17:26 | 4970209 Jorgen
Jorgen's picture

 

Well now who shot that plane down?

Hopefully, we'll find out soon. In the meantime a blast from the past:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2001/oct/12/russia.israel

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 18:10 | 4970423 gcjohns1971
gcjohns1971's picture

I doubt anyone will found out anything concrete for a long time.

Instead people will hurl accusations and innuendos.

 

And long after the whole afrair is over, they'll decide that whoever lost was the one who did it.

 

So far all the evidence points to the East Ukrainians who pulled the trigger believing it to be another military transport.

What could they do differently?  Probably not much.  This is simply what the FOG  OF WAR is all about.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 17:59 | 4970376 Jorgen
Jorgen's picture

 

Well now who shot that plane down?

Hopefully, we'll find out soon. In the meantime a blast from the past:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2001/oct/12/russia.israel

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 15:03 | 4969388 SmallerGovNow2
SmallerGovNow2's picture

From RT interesting hypothesis...

Malaysian Airlines MH17 plane was travelling almost the same route as Russia’s President Vladimir Putin’s jet shortly before the crash that killed 295, Interfax news agency reports citing sources.

“I can say that Putin’s plane and the Malaysian Boeing intersected at the same point and the same echelon. That was close to Warsaw on 330-m echelon at the height of 10,100 meters. The presidential jet was there at 16:21 Moscow time and the Malaysian aircraft - 15:44 Moscow time,” a source told the news agency on condition of anonymity.

"The contours of the aircrafts are similar, linear dimensions are also very similar, as for the coloring, at a quite remote distance they are almost identical", the source added.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 15:06 | 4969411 Cacete de Ouro
Cacete de Ouro's picture

So what's the tail number of Putin's plane?

RA96016 or RA64520 or something else?

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 15:14 | 4969458 Thought Processor
Thought Processor's picture

 

 

 

Should've taken the blue pill.

 

 

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 15:42 | 4969636 Ying-Yang
Ying-Yang's picture

If Putin's plane is like AF-1 then advanced avionics and countermeasures would make a difference over a commercial heavy.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 18:55 | 4970664 DOT
DOT's picture

Putin is not stupid or poor. I think your conditional (if) can be dropped.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 15:09 | 4969413 jbvtme
jbvtme's picture

whoa

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 15:16 | 4969475 cougar_w
cougar_w's picture

I don't want to paint with too broad a brush (i've liked RT reporting on other topics) but there would be some political reasons for RT to report things that way. On the face of it, I don't buy it. Putin flying over Ukraine in anything other than a high-speed military jet just does not pass the smell-test. If he flew on a civil (even if private) jet he would fly way around. If I were his security chief, I would insist on it.

So it sounds cute, but -- nope.

Now it is possible someone on the ground in Ukraine was thinking something like that, with predictable results.

And, someone on the pro-Russian side might have got some bad intel and screwed up, thinking they had a shot at someone.

Either way, someone screwed up, is my expectation.

That being the case we'll never know, because nobody is going to stand up and say they screwed up.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 15:33 | 4969579 MsCreant
MsCreant's picture

The way PR paints this guy, he'll fly his own jet and no one will stop him. In fact he is getting in one right now to go gun the fuckers down, he is tired of this shit. 

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 20:06 | 4971039 kaiserhoff
kaiserhoff's picture

While taking the weekend off from playing center for the Knicks, and wresting grizzly bears, just to amuse the children. 

The whole great leader worship is pretty nausiating...., here too.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 16:13 | 4969817 MsCreant
MsCreant's picture

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 20:54 | 4971281 New_Meat
New_Meat's picture

my greenie on ya for a short comment ;-)

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 21:08 | 4971353 nmewn
nmewn's picture

So whats the deal with this Ned?

Everything I'm seeing is this is not a shoulder fired weapon that brought it down (cruising @ 33k ft they run out of "gas"). I'm thinkin a crazy Ivan got all full of himself and launched before he knew what he was launching at.

A mistake to be sure (nothing to gain, militarily and certainly not politically/diplomatically).

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 16:17 | 4969865 Urban Redneck
Urban Redneck's picture

But they're not actually saying that the two planes' paths intersected over Ukraine , and an aviation waypoint labeled "Warsaw" isn't likely to be anywhere near Ukraine.

It's bizarre, but since the EU bureaucrats could easily prove fallacy if that were the case - it seems a rather strange detail to lie about. Then again what's the relevance? Is a Ukrainian entrusted with a SAM battery actually dumb enough to think that Putin would detour over Ukraine on his way back to Russia?

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 15:05 | 4969397 Soda Popinski
Soda Popinski's picture

TWA flight 800 was shot down on July 17, 1996, exactly 18 years ago.  For the record

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 15:11 | 4969450 Utah_Get_Me_2
Utah_Get_Me_2's picture

http://www.planespotters.net/Production_List/Boeing/777/28411,9M-MRD-Malaysia-Airlines.php

MH-17 or by its registration # 9M-MRD had its first flight 7/17/1997. 17 years ago today.

This is insane.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 15:14 | 4969463 jomama
jomama's picture

OMG WHAT DOES THAT ALL MEAN?!

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 15:18 | 4969490 Utah_Get_Me_2
Utah_Get_Me_2's picture

It means we are in the twilight zone. Not in Kansas anymore Todo.  

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 16:00 | 4969696 pakled
pakled's picture

It's 'Toto'.

 

It's the only thing that can be said for certain at this time.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 16:09 | 4969802 hoist the bs flag
hoist the bs flag's picture

"Ever hear the old saying 'millionaires don't believe in astrology; billionaires do?'Well, maybe skeptical neckbeards, mouldering away in their little cubicles, don't believe in ancient astronauts, or numerology... but I'm thinking it's a good chance the CEOs of their companies do."

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 16:10 | 4969803 hoist the bs flag
hoist the bs flag's picture

"Ever hear the old saying 'millionaires don't believe in astrology; billionaires do?'Well, maybe skeptical neckbeards, mouldering away in their little cubicles, don't believe in ancient astronauts, or numerology... but I'm thinking it's a good chance the CEOs of their companies do."

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 16:10 | 4969805 hoist the bs flag
hoist the bs flag's picture

"Ever hear the old saying 'millionaires don't believe in astrology; billionaires do?'Well, maybe skeptical neckbeards, mouldering away in their little cubicles, don't believe in ancient astronauts, or numerology... but I'm thinking it's a good chance the CEOs of their companies do."

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 15:20 | 4969495 cougar_w
cougar_w's picture

IT MEANS --- nothing actually, just that people can find patterns in white noise. Which they can, btw.

Someone once found the face of Jesus on the burnt side of a grilled sandwich. Or maybe it was Mary. I don't recall now.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 15:30 | 4969553 Utah_Get_Me_2
Utah_Get_Me_2's picture

You honestly don't find it extremely unlikely that MH-17, a 777, Made its first (7/17/1997) & last (7/17/2014, 2+0+1+4 = 7) flights 17 years to the day? I'm not one to jump to conclusions or latch on to the wild theories.. but this is bizarre. Add that with Lagarde's bizarre speech about the number 7 and the IMF involvement in Ukraine. I'm not saying I know what's happening but something about this does not pass the smell test.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 17:59 | 4970377 cougar_w
cougar_w's picture

" I'm not one to jump to conclusions or latch on to the wild theories"

Please allow me be the first to inform you -- that this is exactly what you are.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 18:37 | 4970554 Not Too Important
Not Too Important's picture

"In Hoffman's Secret Societies and Psychological Warfare, he states that "...the Revelation of the Method has as its chief component, a clown-like, grinning mockery of the victim(s) as a show of power and macabre arrogance. When this is performed in a veiled manner accompanied by certain occult sign and symbolical words and elicits no meaningful response of opposition or resistance from the target(s), it is one of the most efficacious techniques of psychological warfare and mind-rape..."

This is all done on purpose.

Illuminati 9/11 Signs:

http://theforbiddenknowledge.com/wtc/index02.htm

And the infamous Illumanati Card Game:

http://www.cuttingedge.org/news/n1753.cfm

Make of it what you will, but our Masters believe this shit something fierce.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 18:37 | 4970556 nonclaim
nonclaim's picture

Well 7/17/1997 are all primes ... he has one more place to jump to.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 21:30 | 4971455 nmewn
nmewn's picture

I second that...lol.

"MH-17 or by its registration # 9M-MRD had its first flight 7/17/1997. 17 years ago today."

But if we divide 365 by 17 we get 21, further, if we take 21 and add the magical 17 again we get 38...now there are 365 days in a year so thats 12 months, so, 12 plus 38 equals 50.

Which is (GASP!!!) the age of the dead pilot ;-)

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 18:44 | 4970585 Ignorance is bliss
Ignorance is bliss's picture

Christine Lagarde's speech was full of magic 7s. I don't think this was a mere coincidence.

 

http://ronmamita.wordpress.com/2014/01/28/what-was-significant-about-mag...

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 20:35 | 4971190 Dublinmick
Dublinmick's picture

Lagarde is just reading the script, she knows about as much astology as a money's ass does.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 15:31 | 4969563 Utah_Get_Me_2
Utah_Get_Me_2's picture

You honestly don't find it extremely unlikely that MH-17, a 777, Made its first (7/17/1997) & last (7/17/2014, 2+0+1+4 = 7) flights 17 years to the day? I'm not one to jump to conclusions or latch on to the wild theories.. but this is bizarre. Add that with Lagarde's bizarre speech about the number 7 and the IMF involvement in Ukraine. I'm not saying I know what's happening but something about this does not pass the smell test.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 15:31 | 4969566 Utah_Get_Me_2
Utah_Get_Me_2's picture

You honestly don't find it extremely unlikely that MH-17, a 777, Made its first (7/17/1997) & last (7/17/2014, 2+0+1+4 = 7) flights 17 years to the day? I'm not one to jump to conclusions or latch on to the wild theories.. but this is bizarre. Add that with Lagarde's bizarre speech about the number 7 and the IMF involvement in Ukraine. I'm not saying I know what's happening but something about this does not pass the smell test.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 15:32 | 4969572 Utah_Get_Me_2
Utah_Get_Me_2's picture

You honestly don't find it extremely unlikely that MH-17, a 777, Made its first (7/17/1997) & last (7/17/2014, 2+0+1+4 = 7) flights 17 years to the day? I'm not one to jump to conclusions or latch on to the wild theories.. but this is bizarre. Add that with Lagarde's bizarre speech about the number 7 and the IMF involvement in Ukraine. I'm not saying I know what's happening but something about this does not pass the smell test.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 15:33 | 4969576 Utah_Get_Me_2
Utah_Get_Me_2's picture

You honestly don't find it extremely unlikely that MH-17, a 777, Made its first (7/17/1997) & last (7/17/2014, 2+0+1+4 = 7) flights 17 years to the day? I'm not one to jump to conclusions or latch on to the wild theories.. but this is bizarre. Add that with Lagarde's bizarre speech about the number 7 and the IMF involvement in Ukraine. I'm not saying I know what's happening but something about this does not pass the smell test.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 15:42 | 4969632 McMolotov
McMolotov's picture

If you had posted this comment seven times instead of five, my mind would have been blown.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 17:48 | 4970320 cougar_w
cougar_w's picture

You're kinda brilliant, in a twisted sorta way. You know that, right? I'd suggest you seek therapy, but I enjoy your comments too much.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 18:53 | 4970644 Cacete de Ouro
Cacete de Ouro's picture

Sounds like your mind may already be blown by eating at McDonalds and calling yourself Molotov

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 15:39 | 4969582 Cacete de Ouro
Cacete de Ouro's picture

So you don't think it's unusual and statistically interesting that a plane with a flight number MH 17 had it's first flight exact 17 years ago to this day on July 17th 1997 and then crashes exactly 17 years later on July 17th?

Ok, I'd hate to see an event that did make you go hmmmm...it would be some event, that's for sure...

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 15:41 | 4969627 Utah_Get_Me_2
Utah_Get_Me_2's picture

I'd love to know the probability of this happening as it has. The number must be astronomical.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 16:20 | 4969877 AlaricBalth
AlaricBalth's picture

The name PUTIN on a phone pad is 7 8 8 4 6. In numerology the number 8 symbolizes the character of "The Boss". He has a powerful drive to succeed, decision-making, intensely active, seizes opportunities, takes control, and wants security. So, 8 symbolizes Putin, which therefore must be eliminated, just as TPTB wish to take him out.  The remaining numbers are 7 4 6, which added together equal 17.

Spooky indeed...

;-) 


Thu, 07/17/2014 - 18:59 | 4970692 DOT
DOT's picture

Will you do my taxes?

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 19:35 | 4970857 Not Too Important
Not Too Important's picture

It isn't what we believe. It's what they believe.

“If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.”
? Sun Tzu, The Art of War

And they believe in some horrific shit. Ask the 50,000 ritualistically mutilated kids in Canada:

'The Canadian Holocaust'

http://www.nativevillage.org/Editorials/The%20Canadian%20Holocaust%20The...


Thu, 07/17/2014 - 19:41 | 4970891 IndyPat
IndyPat's picture

I think it was Elvis on the toast...
Close enough I guess.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 15:28 | 4969543 InspectorBird
InspectorBird's picture

magic number seven?

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 19:51 | 4970943 Ness.
Ness.'s picture

According to De La Soul, "3" is the magic number.  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=daWObuUptrQ&list=RDdaWObuUptrQ#t=133

I'm not trying to make light of the very disturbing series of events we all witnessed today, but damn, this is a good song.  A song from back in the day when battling was done dancing on a slab of cardboard thrown down on a street corner.  Man, what the fuck happened?  Anyway.

The only countries to "benefit" from this disaster would be the USSA and their puppets in Ukraine.  This shit fucking stinks to high heaven and we'll never know what actually happened and who made that call.  Do you get the sense that experiencing US foreign policy these days is like watching a chicken run around with it's head cut off?  In my family? we ate that chicken for dinner.

The so-called most powerful man on the planet, BO, after knowing what happened spent 35 seconds addressing the world by proclaiming that this "might be a terrible tradgey" and then immmediately moved on to campaigning for more funds for infrastructure (shovel ready) jobs before vetting off the NYC for the first of his two fund-raisers?  WFT?

Stop the planet.  I want off.

 

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 19:58 | 4970992 IndyPat
IndyPat's picture

According to Monty Python, Herrings and Shrubberies have important magic properties and associations.

Coconut shells also figure prominently in Monty Python mystic lore as does the mystical swallows that transport them across continents.

And don't even get me started on white rabbits.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 15:31 | 4969550 InspectorBird
InspectorBird's picture

double

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 15:17 | 4969486 Thought Processor
Thought Processor's picture

 

 

Ok that's fucked up.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 15:42 | 4969622 InspectorBird
InspectorBird's picture

del

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 20:55 | 4971283 New_Meat
New_Meat's picture

Pierre Salanger can not be reached for comment, however.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 15:07 | 4969415 bigkansas
bigkansas's picture

#thebearisloose

DEMOCRATS!

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 15:07 | 4969419 IHaveNothingLef...
IHaveNothingLeftButAnger's picture
A social media site attributed to a top Ukrainian rebel commander said the insurgents had shot down an army transporter at the location where a Malaysia Airlines plane crashed Thursday near the Russian border.                                                                                                                        http://cdn2.vox-cdn.com/assets/4773146/Bswg7UGCQAAtv47.jpg                                                                             https://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/world/a/24489586/rebel-site-suggests-i...
Thu, 07/17/2014 - 15:17 | 4969478 IHaveNothingLef...
IHaveNothingLeftButAnger's picture

anyone care to translate that first one?

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 15:42 | 4969629 InspectorBird
InspectorBird's picture

Translation:

We just shot down an An-26 in the Torez region, it's somewhere behind "Progress" mine. Well, we warned not to fly in "our airspace". And here is video proof of another "birdfall", bird went down behind populated area, innocent people did not get hurt.

There is also information about another plane that got shot down, propably SU.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 15:10 | 4969420 IHaveNothingLef...
IHaveNothingLeftButAnger's picture
dbl post....
Thu, 07/17/2014 - 15:10 | 4969436 CrashisOptimistic
CrashisOptimistic's picture

headlines.ransquawk.com/headlines/russian-president-putin-declines-to-comment-on-a-report-the-putin-was-targeted-17-07-2014

 

This guy is really good.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 15:12 | 4969453 Smegley Wanxalot
Smegley Wanxalot's picture

For safety reasons they need to divert these flights to over Gaza and northwest Iraq.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 15:13 | 4969460 Rakshas
Rakshas's picture

Wow, thats a lot of wreckage for a bow-wing plane of that size falling from that altitude, at shanksville they put the pieces of "UA flight 93" in a dustbin....... I don't know who to believe anymore.......... 911 was real right...... right????

 

/sarc///FN BS

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 15:16 | 4969471 Z_End
Z_End's picture

Per RT.com: http://rt.com/news/173628-malaysian-plane-crash-ukraine/

Thursday, July 17 19:11 GMT:

Civilian airspace over Ukraine has been closed until further notice, continental air traffic regulator Eurocontrol has announced.

 

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 15:56 | 4969704 gcjohns1971
gcjohns1971's picture

The idiots.

They should have closed weeks ago.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 15:17 | 4969482 syntaxterror
syntaxterror's picture

What next? Planes not flying over Gaza? Or over Syria? Or over Bushraq? Or Bushghanistan?

Jeez. Glad they figured out the obvious.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 15:18 | 4969488 Circle of DNA
Circle of DNA's picture

Good way to fight pollution and chemtrails

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 15:20 | 4969493 MsCreant
MsCreant's picture

Imagine if you are in the sky over there right now, as a passenger. You are getting rerouted. Do you know why? What a day to be in the air.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 15:24 | 4969516 gatorengineer
gatorengineer's picture

I am not going to spend time looking for it, but there was a post a couple of weeks back and a brief discussion of something happening on the 17th...  just a coincidence, if anyone finds it

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 15:27 | 4969537 Joe A
Joe A's picture

That is an interesting twist but I cannot imagine the Russian presidential plane flying over a territory that Russia is somehow involved in. Too risky you know.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 15:35 | 4969590 syntaxterror
syntaxterror's picture

Any aircraft with an important military leader or cargo would have countermeasures to ward off a missile attack.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 15:42 | 4969638 CrashisOptimistic
CrashisOptimistic's picture

It doesn't say he was flying over Ukraine.  It says the paths intersected over Warsaw just 40 minutes apart.

Warsaw is well outside the range of any imaginable surface to air missile fired from Ukraine territory.  Though where Putin's plane was headed after crossing above Warsaw might have been much closer.

The paths crossing is intriguing.  Pretty easy, always, for an excitable 18 year old to screw up.

 

 

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 18:29 | 4970519 gcjohns1971
gcjohns1971's picture

Air Defense systems don't keep their radars running when the opposition  has air superiority, or is within Artillery range.  If they do they get blown up. 

Instead they use 'early warning' networks.   An early warning network is just a network of general aviation or other radars that aren't such targets who can identify aircraft so the Air Defense Radar knows when to turn on and fire.

If East Ukrainians have a BUK it is almost certainly using any radar they can contact other than their own as early warning.  Most of those radars will be on local airfields for normal aviation.

In the past week the West Ukrainians have made a special point of seizing those.  They've been taking the airfields.  

If Strelkov's forces have a BUK it probably has little or no early warning radar now.  And without that linkage they can't tell aircraft apart easily.

Radar will only profile the radar return by dimensions, speed, course, etc.  You can program them to recognize certain aircraft types as enemy.  But it is hard to do that in the field.

 You have to correlate with the early warning network to positively identify a radar track or interrogat their IFF (Identification Friend or Foe).

They probably thought it was another Antonov....

 

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 15:34 | 4969583 Billy Sol Estes
Billy Sol Estes's picture

Flight24 has been goon rushed, site down.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 16:03 | 4969762 Jorgen
Jorgen's picture

http://www.rferl.mobi/a/ukraine-separatist-leader-boasts-downing-plane/2...

I am not saying the above is true or false but the source is hardly objective or neutral.

 

From Wikipedia:

Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty (RFE/RL) is a broadcaster funded by the U.S. government that provides "news, information, and analysis" to countries in Eastern Europe, Central Asia, and the Middle East "where the free flow of information is either banned by government authorities or not fully developed".[3] RFE/RL is supervised by the Broadcasting Board of Governors, a bi-partisan federal agency overseeing all U.S. international broadcasting services.[4]

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 15:53 | 4969695 Nevsky
Nevsky's picture

From Russian and Ukranian news sources:

*(you've already heard that Ukraine claims BUK was used, but Ukraine of course has BUKs also)

**(please contain your emotions towards me, I am not claiming one or the other side is guilty, simply brining you the news)

 

- Ukranians claim a pro-Russia Donetsk leader Girkin posted on his VK (russian Facebook) admission on the downing of the liner. The screenshot of Girkin reads that AN26 is shot down in 'our skies' and that SU is also shot down somewhere.

-Girkin says he was going off the posting he was taken off the local forum and he had no first hand knowledge. He further provides 5 interesting snippets (same source)

- screenshot from a Ukranina board that says Ukranians shot down a rebels plane. (more on that rebels plane below)

- screenshot from omeone a few months earlier saying Ukraninas would shoot down a commerical liner to invite NATO.

- says his forces don't have BUKs (more on that also below)

- reference to 2001 incident when Ukraine shot down a Russian commercial liner and denied for a long time before admitting.

- claims local witnesses saw a Ukranian SU attacking the liner.

 

First about rebel BUK's. Ukranians said that rebels captured one earlier. Notice the timestamp - June 30. At the time Ukranians said it was NOT functional.

 

Second about the planes, Ukranians say Rebels have a plane, but they don't have a pilot. They also denied that a Ukranian SU was downed earlier.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 16:18 | 4969871 MsCreant
MsCreant's picture

Why do you care if I contain my emotions or not regarding you? It's the internet Nevsky. I can't "get you." Only pixels on a screen.

I think I love you. I want to have your children. Kisses.

Maybe I want to, you know, just cry and freak out.

Nah, I just like to play. Don't worry about our emotions, don't be a doormat. Say what is true for you.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 16:25 | 4969927 Nevsky
Nevsky's picture

There were "geniuses" in the past, that kept wanting to argue with me assuming I was taking one or the other position. Had itchy tounge syndrome if you will. Hence big fat disclaimer for these types.

 

Good day.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 20:00 | 4971002 Circle of DNA
Circle of DNA's picture

Absolutely nothing wrong with taking sides! We all belong somewhere, we all believe in something and we all stand for something, even robots do. This whole thing about being objective is just an arrogant game for some heartless reptiles. You can be very subjective and still be right.

I followed these events in Ukraine and I find that there is very little to like about the Ukie ZioNazis; I want them all dead, I want their creators to be dead and anyone who supports them dead. This is where I stand.

Fri, 07/18/2014 - 10:35 | 4973235 Nevsky
Nevsky's picture

I prefer to know the facts first.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 16:30 | 4969963 gcjohns1971
gcjohns1971's picture

So basically,

Girkin said he did have a BUK before he said he didn't have a BUK.

Girkin said he did shoot down a plane this morning before he said he didn't.

Kiev said Girkin did have a BUK but that it wasn't working before they said he did have a BUK, and it was working.

Kiev said Girkin didn't shoot down an AN-24 with the BUK that he didn't have or that wasn't working before they said that he did shoot down the AN-24 with a BUK that may or may not be working.

Kiev says Girkin has a plane but no pilot.... (I wonder how long it will take them to say he has a pilot).

This is denial-speak:

So... let me use my decades of military service to translate:

Girkin has a BUK.  It probably came from the Ukrainian forces by way of defection, but may have come from Russia.

Kiev doesn't want to admit he has one, or that it is working, because it indicates that either Russia is helping Girkin - which would embolden others in the East - or indicates that Kiev control over the Ukraine military is not as secure as they would like everyone to believe. 

Kiev tried to cover up that they'd had planes shot down until the situation became obvious to everyone - and then decided to blame the Russians instead.  Girkin happily admitted he had one, and was shooting down planes, until it became a liability today.

Girkin PROBABLY has an aircraft somewhere.  But there's no way to tell if he has a ground maintenance crew or a pilot.  The first is harder than the second. 

 

Now I'll hazard a GUESS at what happened:

West Ukraine have been setting military transport flight ingress routes within normal air lanes, possibly even shadowing commercial aircraft, as a crew safety measure to prevent shoot down by the Air Defense weapons they don't want to admit Strelkov (Girkin) has.  They do this hoping the transports will be confused with commercial aircraft, and then dive to ground level when they approach their objective.

Strelkov (Which means 'arrow' by the way) probably caught on to the tactic some time ago and has been selectively shooting down transport craft.

Girkin's (Strelkov) crew has a very limited air picture because the West Ukrainians recently captured airfields in the area, which meant the West took over Girkin's early warning radar.  This means that the firing battery crew has to see something and decide it might be a target before they turn on their radar.

Their early warning radar was probably the commercial radar on the local airfield was probably tied in to the internation radar network run by the US FAA.  That network correlate's flight schedules with radar returns, and propagates civilian aircraft squawk frequencies and flight numbers along with the return information.

The Air Defense battery crew had probably grown used to seeing that correlation information, and become comfortable that the West Ukrainian flights wouldn't have it.

Without the early warning radar they have to use their Mk-1 eyeballs.  So, the crew takes a risk, lights up the radar and locks onto the plane.  They don't see any commercial information, so the fire under the assumption it is another Antonov military transport.

The Air Defense Battery reports the kills in their battle update.  Girkin boasts of the kill, and when it becomes clear it was a civilian he runs for cover.

 

Now... who is to blame?   The firing Air Defense battery? 

Is Kiev to blame because they took the airfield that fed Strelkov's people with the commercial feed, and functioned as an early warning radar?

Is Russia to blame because they may (or may not) have provide repair parts to keep Girkin's BUK working?

Is Euro Flight Control to blame because they were still approving flight plans over Ukraine long after Ukraine told them to close it, and long after the evidence was that it was a risk?

 

Fling all the turds you want.  This is how war is.  Get a belly full before you think about starting one.

 

 

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 17:30 | 4970228 luftmensch
luftmensch's picture

Nice synopsis..

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 18:06 | 4970404 Wahooo
Wahooo's picture

So basically,

Girkin said he did have a BUK before he said he didn't have a BUK.

Girkin said he did shoot down a plane this morning before he said he didn't.

Kiev said Girkin did have a BUK but that it wasn't working before they said he did have a BUK, and it was working.

Kiev said Girkin didn't shoot down an AN-24 with the BUK that he didn't have or that wasn't working before they said that he did shoot down the AN-24 with a BUK that may or may not be working.

Kiev says Girkin has a plane but no pilot.... (I wonder how long it will take them to say he has a pilot).

This is denial-speak:

So... let me use my decades of military service to translate:

Girkin has a BUK.  It probably came from the Ukrainian forces by way of defection, but may have come from Russia.

Kiev doesn't want to admit he has one, or that it is working, because it indicates that either Russia is helping Girkin - which would embolden others in the East - or indicates that Kiev control over the Ukraine military is not as secure as they would like everyone to believe. 

Kiev tried to cover up that they'd had planes shot down until the situation became obvious to everyone - and then decided to blame the Russians instead.  Girkin happily admitted he had one, and was shooting down planes, until it became a liability today.

Girkin PROBABLY has an aircraft somewhere.  But there's no way to tell if he has a ground maintenance crew or a pilot.  The first is harder than the second. 

 

Now I'll hazard a GUESS at what happened:

West Ukraine have been setting military transport flight ingress routes within normal air lanes, possibly even shadowing commercial aircraft, as a crew safety measure to prevent shoot down by the Air Defense weapons they don't want to admit Strelkov (Girkin) has.  They do this hoping the transports will be confused with commercial aircraft, and then dive to ground level when they approach their objective.

Strelkov (Which means 'arrow' by the way) probably caught on to the tactic some time ago and has been selectively shooting down transport craft.

Girkin's (Strelkov) crew has a very limited air picture because the West Ukrainians recently captured airfields in the area, which meant the West took over Girkin's early warning radar.  This means that the firing battery crew has to see something and decide it might be a target before they turn on their radar.

Their early warning radar was probably the commercial radar on the local airfield was probably tied in to the internation radar network run by the US FAA.  That network correlate's flight schedules with radar returns, and propagates civilian aircraft squawk frequencies and flight numbers along with the return information.

The Air Defense battery crew had probably grown used to seeing that correlation information, and become comfortable that the West Ukrainian flights wouldn't have it.

Without the early warning radar they have to use their Mk-1 eyeballs.  So, the crew takes a risk, lights up the radar and locks onto the plane.  They don't see any commercial information, so the fire under the assumption it is another Antonov military transport.

The Air Defense Battery reports the kills in their battle update.  Girkin boasts of the kill, and when it becomes clear it was a civilian he runs for cover.

PLEASE REMEMBER THAT IS AN EDUCATED GUESS.

 

Now... who is to blame?   The firing Air Defense battery? 

Is Kiev to blame because they took the airfield that fed Strelkov's people with the commercial feed, and functioned as an early warning radar?

Is Russia to blame because they may (or may not) have provided repair parts to keep Girkin's BUK working? (If they were giving him systems they'd probably give more than one)

Is Euro Flight Control to blame because they were still approving flight plans over Ukraine long after Ukraine told them to close it, and long after the evidence was that it was a risk?

 

Fling all the turds you want.  This is how war is.  Get a belly full before you think about starting one.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 20:12 | 4971081 IndyPat
IndyPat's picture

Girkin = Pickles

P-I-C-K-L-E-S = 7!!!!!

This guy is obviously a plant and an insider.
So weird.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 16:33 | 4969973 gcjohns1971
gcjohns1971's picture

So basically,

Girkin said he did have a BUK before he said he didn't have a BUK.

Girkin said he did shoot down a plane this morning before he said he didn't.

Kiev said Girkin did have a BUK but that it wasn't working before they said he did have a BUK, and it was working.

Kiev said Girkin didn't shoot down an AN-24 with the BUK that he didn't have or that wasn't working before they said that he did shoot down the AN-24 with a BUK that may or may not be working.

Kiev says Girkin has a plane but no pilot.... (I wonder how long it will take them to say he has a pilot).

This is denial-speak:

So... let me use my decades of military service to translate:

Girkin has a BUK.  It probably came from the Ukrainian forces by way of defection, but may have come from Russia.

Kiev doesn't want to admit he has one, or that it is working, because it indicates that either Russia is helping Girkin - which would embolden others in the East - or indicates that Kiev control over the Ukraine military is not as secure as they would like everyone to believe. 

Kiev tried to cover up that they'd had planes shot down until the situation became obvious to everyone - and then decided to blame the Russians instead.  Girkin happily admitted he had one, and was shooting down planes, until it became a liability today.

Girkin PROBABLY has an aircraft somewhere.  But there's no way to tell if he has a ground maintenance crew or a pilot.  The first is harder than the second. 

 

Now I'll hazard a GUESS at what happened:

West Ukraine have been setting military transport flight ingress routes within normal air lanes, possibly even shadowing commercial aircraft, as a crew safety measure to prevent shoot down by the Air Defense weapons they don't want to admit Strelkov (Girkin) has.  They do this hoping the transports will be confused with commercial aircraft, and then dive to ground level when they approach their objective.

Strelkov (Which means 'arrow' by the way) probably caught on to the tactic some time ago and has been selectively shooting down transport craft.

Girkin's (Strelkov) crew has a very limited air picture because the West Ukrainians recently captured airfields in the area, which meant the West took over Girkin's early warning radar.  This means that the firing battery crew has to see something and decide it might be a target before they turn on their radar.

Their early warning radar was probably the commercial radar on the local airfield was probably tied in to the internation radar network run by the US FAA.  That network correlate's flight schedules with radar returns, and propagates civilian aircraft squawk frequencies and flight numbers along with the return information.

The Air Defense battery crew had probably grown used to seeing that correlation information, and become comfortable that the West Ukrainian flights wouldn't have it.

Without the early warning radar they have to use their Mk-1 eyeballs.  So, the crew takes a risk, lights up the radar and locks onto the plane.  They don't see any commercial information, so the fire under the assumption it is another Antonov military transport.

The Air Defense Battery reports the kills in their battle update.  Girkin boasts of the kill, and when it becomes clear it was a civilian he runs for cover.

PLEASE REMEMBER THAT IS AN EDUCATED GUESS.

 

Now... who is to blame?   The firing Air Defense battery? 

Is Kiev to blame because they took the airfield that fed Strelkov's people with the commercial feed, and functioned as an early warning radar?

Is Russia to blame because they may (or may not) have provided repair parts to keep Girkin's BUK working? (If they were giving him systems they'd probably give more than one)

Is Euro Flight Control to blame because they were still approving flight plans over Ukraine long after Ukraine told them to close it, and long after the evidence was that it was a risk?

 

Fling all the turds you want.  This is how war is.  Get a belly full before you think about starting one.

 

 

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 20:28 | 4971160 tvdog
tvdog's picture

Now I'll hazard a GUESS at what happened:

West Ukraine have been setting military transport flight ingress routes within normal air lanes, possibly even shadowing commercial aircraft, as a crew safety measure to prevent shoot down by the Air Defense weapons they don't want to admit Strelkov (Girkin) has.

3 minutes before the plane was shot down it was being "escorted" by two Ukrainian fighters. They left, then - boom.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 16:34 | 4969977 gcjohns1971
gcjohns1971's picture

So basically,

Girkin said he did have a BUK before he said he didn't have a BUK.

Girkin said he did shoot down a plane this morning before he said he didn't.

Kiev said Girkin did have a BUK but that it wasn't working before they said he did have a BUK, and it was working.

Kiev said Girkin didn't shoot down an AN-24 with the BUK that he didn't have or that wasn't working before they said that he did shoot down the AN-24 with a BUK that may or may not be working.

Kiev says Girkin has a plane but no pilot.... (I wonder how long it will take them to say he has a pilot).

This is denial-speak:

So... let me use my decades of military service to translate:

Girkin has a BUK.  It probably came from the Ukrainian forces by way of defection, but may have come from Russia.

Kiev doesn't want to admit he has one, or that it is working, because it indicates that either Russia is helping Girkin - which would embolden others in the East - or indicates that Kiev control over the Ukraine military is not as secure as they would like everyone to believe. 

Kiev tried to cover up that they'd had planes shot down until the situation became obvious to everyone - and then decided to blame the Russians instead.  Girkin happily admitted he had one, and was shooting down planes, until it became a liability today.

Girkin PROBABLY has an aircraft somewhere.  But there's no way to tell if he has a ground maintenance crew or a pilot.  The first is harder than the second. 

 

Now I'll hazard a GUESS at what happened:

West Ukraine have been setting military transport flight ingress routes within normal air lanes, possibly even shadowing commercial aircraft, as a crew safety measure to prevent shoot down by the Air Defense weapons they don't want to admit Strelkov (Girkin) has.  They do this hoping the transports will be confused with commercial aircraft, and then dive to ground level when they approach their objective.

Strelkov (Which means 'arrow' by the way) probably caught on to the tactic some time ago and has been selectively shooting down transport craft.

Girkin's (Strelkov) crew has a very limited air picture because the West Ukrainians recently captured airfields in the area, which meant the West took over Girkin's early warning radar.  This means that the firing battery crew has to see something and decide it might be a target before they turn on their radar.

Their early warning radar was probably the commercial radar on the local airfield was probably tied in to the internation radar network run by the US FAA.  That network correlate's flight schedules with radar returns, and propagates civilian aircraft squawk frequencies and flight numbers along with the return information.

The Air Defense battery crew had probably grown used to seeing that correlation information, and become comfortable that the West Ukrainian flights wouldn't have it.

Without the early warning radar they have to use their Mk-1 eyeballs.  So, the crew takes a risk, lights up the radar and locks onto the plane.  They don't see any commercial information, so the fire under the assumption it is another Antonov military transport.

The Air Defense Battery reports the kills in their battle update.  Girkin boasts of the kill, and when it becomes clear it was a civilian he runs for cover.

PLEASE REMEMBER THAT IS AN EDUCATED GUESS.

 

Now... who is to blame?   The firing Air Defense battery? 

Is Kiev to blame because they took the airfield that fed Strelkov's people with the commercial feed, and functioned as an early warning radar?

Is Russia to blame because they may (or may not) have provided repair parts to keep Girkin's BUK working? (If they were giving him systems they'd probably give more than one)

Is Euro Flight Control to blame because they were still approving flight plans over Ukraine long after Ukraine told them to close it, and long after the evidence was that it was a risk?

 

Fling all the turds you want.  This is how war is.  Get a belly full before you think about starting one.

 

 

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 16:35 | 4969984 gcjohns1971
gcjohns1971's picture

So basically,

Girkin said he did have a BUK before he said he didn't have a BUK.

Girkin said he did shoot down a plane this morning before he said he didn't.

Kiev said Girkin did have a BUK but that it wasn't working before they said he did have a BUK, and it was working.

Kiev said Girkin didn't shoot down an AN-24 with the BUK that he didn't have or that wasn't working before they said that he did shoot down the AN-24 with a BUK that may or may not be working.

Kiev says Girkin has a plane but no pilot.... (I wonder how long it will take them to say he has a pilot).

This is denial-speak:

So... let me use my decades of military service to translate:

Girkin has a BUK.  It probably came from the Ukrainian forces by way of defection, but may have come from Russia.

Kiev doesn't want to admit he has one, or that it is working, because it indicates that either Russia is helping Girkin - which would embolden others in the East - or indicates that Kiev control over the Ukraine military is not as secure as they would like everyone to believe. 

Kiev tried to cover up that they'd had planes shot down until the situation became obvious to everyone - and then decided to blame the Russians instead.  Girkin happily admitted he had one, and was shooting down planes, until it became a liability today.

Girkin PROBABLY has an aircraft somewhere.  But there's no way to tell if he has a ground maintenance crew or a pilot.  The first is harder than the second. 

 

Now I'll hazard a GUESS at what happened:

West Ukraine have been setting military transport flight ingress routes within normal air lanes, possibly even shadowing commercial aircraft, as a crew safety measure to prevent shoot down by the Air Defense weapons they don't want to admit Strelkov (Girkin) has.  They do this hoping the transports will be confused with commercial aircraft, and then dive to ground level when they approach their objective.

Strelkov (Which means 'arrow' by the way) probably caught on to the tactic some time ago and has been selectively shooting down transport craft.

Girkin's (Strelkov) crew has a very limited air picture because the West Ukrainians recently captured airfields in the area, which meant the West took over Girkin's early warning radar.  This means that the firing battery crew has to see something and decide it might be a target before they turn on their radar.

Their early warning radar was probably the commercial radar on the local airfield was probably tied in to the internation radar network run by the US FAA.  That network correlate's flight schedules with radar returns, and propagates civilian aircraft squawk frequencies and flight numbers along with the return information.

The Air Defense battery crew had probably grown used to seeing that correlation information, and become comfortable that the West Ukrainian flights wouldn't have it.

Without the early warning radar they have to use their Mk-1 eyeballs.  So, the crew takes a risk, lights up the radar and locks onto the plane.  They don't see any commercial information, so the fire under the assumption it is another Antonov military transport.

The Air Defense Battery reports the kills in their battle update.  Girkin boasts of the kill, and when it becomes clear it was a civilian he runs for cover.

PLEASE REMEMBER THAT IS AN EDUCATED GUESS.

 

Now... who is to blame?   The firing Air Defense battery? 

Is Kiev to blame because they took the airfield that fed Strelkov's people with the commercial feed, and functioned as an early warning radar?

Is Russia to blame because they may (or may not) have provided repair parts to keep Girkin's BUK working? (If they were giving him systems they'd probably give more than one)

Is Euro Flight Control to blame because they were still approving flight plans over Ukraine long after Ukraine told them to close it, and long after the evidence was that it was a risk?

 

Fling all the turds you want.  This is how war is.  Get a belly full before you think about starting one.

 

 

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 17:55 | 4970363 cougar_w
cougar_w's picture

Damn -- nice work.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 18:10 | 4970425 knukles
knukles's picture

Damn good thing weren't a United flight of somebody be in deep shit with the jingle "Fly the friendly skies."

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 20:41 | 4971225 BobTheSlob
BobTheSlob's picture

Probably the most intelligent guess work I've seen on ZH. Sure beats the ole "Da Joooos shot it down" schtick.

Bravo, good work! Sounds like they might be in the process now of jerkin the Girkin

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 18:05 | 4970398 Nevsky
Nevsky's picture

P.S.: more intrigue.

Plane crashed over Grabovo

Ukraine posts, what it says is, an intercepted conversation between Rebel field commanders.

 

- 'Miner Group' supposedly responsible. Plane, it is said, falls behind Enakievo.

- the group is at Chernuhin block-post.

 

Now look at the map.

 

Since the plane is shot down over Chernuhin, and crashes over Grabovo it was flying South South East

But if it falls behind Enakievo, then it must have been flying West West South after being hit at Chrnuhin.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 18:30 | 4970521 layman_please
layman_please's picture

interesting

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 16:15 | 4969851 Z_End
Z_End's picture

From Singapore Airlines via Facebook:

Status Update By Singapore Airlines Customers may wish to note that Singapore Airlines flights are not using Ukraine airspace.
Thu, 07/17/2014 - 17:51 | 4970340 cougar_w
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I understand that they had to issue that disclaimer -- but that doesn't detract from the fact that it's still really sick.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 16:55 | 4970089 nostromo17
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Probably Russian Nuke train under flight path...

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 16:55 | 4970091 nostromo17
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Probably Russian Nuke train under flight path...

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 17:32 | 4970233 Ol Man
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Clicked on a plane that was flying very near the warzone and it disappeared right after my click.

Did another one get shot down?

Or is this now interactive...???

8>D

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 17:50 | 4970327 cougar_w
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Just clicked on it and didn't once stop to think about those families, did you?

What a world.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 17:56 | 4970365 db51
db51's picture

Holy fuck Batman....now we've got an OL Man fucking shooting down planes with his mouse from who the fuck knows where.   This could really get weird now.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 18:12 | 4970430 knukles
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Bend over Robin and we can release some of that global tension

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 18:30 | 4970516 IridiumRebel
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BOHICA-69 to ground....we are incoming.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 20:38 | 4971204 BobTheSlob
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Now that was a good one! Rock on Ol Timer!

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 18:02 | 4970381 SilverDoctors
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PUTIN MAY HAVE BEEN TARGET OF PLANE SHOT DOWN- PRESIDENTIAL JET & MH17 INTERSECTED AT SAME POINT & ECHELON MINUTES APART

NWO just stirred up a hornet's nest if they attemtped to take out putin & missed!

 

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 18:24 | 4970484 smacker
smacker's picture

This looks like a nice conspiracy theory, but a Warsaw route intersection of the two flights is nowhere near Ukraine. Check a map.

Keep trying.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 19:28 | 4970818 are we there yet
are we there yet's picture

Implausable. There is no chance Putin would fly over a war zone with a history of plane shootdowns. Nor would Obama or any other world leader.

Thu, 07/17/2014 - 20:37 | 4971197 BobTheSlob
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I was half expecting that link to go to The Onion or Infowars.

Do NOT follow this link or you will be banned from the site!