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The Final Moments Of Flight MH-17: The Russian Side Of The Story
Yesterday, we laid out extensively what the official Ukrainian case was when it came to "proof" that Russian separatists had launched the Buk missile which allegedly took down flight MH-17; we also highlighted several glaring inconsistencies and questions that still remained open after the "incriminatory" YouTube clip release. So far, any international response has been muted to this hastily prepared evidence of Russian involvement, although the day is still young.
So what about the Russian side? Below we present the key arguments made by Russia to suggest that not it, but Ukraine, was responsible for taking down the Malaysian Boeing.
As reported earlier by RIA, the Russian Defense Ministry says it had intercepted the activity of a Ukrainian radar system on the day the Malaysian plane went down in eastern Ukraine, the ministry’s press service said Friday.
"Throughout the day on July 17, Russian means of radar surveillance intercepted the operation of the Buk-M1 battery’s Kupol radar station located in the region of the populated area of Styla [30 kilometers south of Donetsk]," the press service said in a statement.
“The technical capabilities of the Buk-M1 allow the exchange of data on air targets between batteries of one battalion. Thus, the launch of rockets could have also occurred from any of the batteries deployed in the populated area of Avdeevka [8 kilometers north of Donetsk] or from Gruzsko-Zoryanskoe [25 kilometers east of Donetsk],” the ministry said.
Then we go to Itar-Tass which reported that civil flights in the air space of the Donetsk and Luhansk regions cannot be performed as the relevant communications infrastructure was destroyed there, a source from the self-proclaimed Donetsk People’s Republic (DPR) told ITAR-TASS on Thursday.
“Kiev operates all air traffic control services and it is unclear how this plane (the Malaysian Airlines Boeing 777 that crashed in eastern Ukraine near the Russian border Thursday night. — ITAR-TASS) could appear in the area,” he said.
“During the combat actions in Donetsk’s airport the communication tower, a part of the united air control service was blown up,” he said adding that “planes cannot fly there.”
On July 8, Ukraine’s State Aviation Service banned all flights over the Donetsk and Luhansk regions aiming to provide “adequate safety and security for all flights of civil aircraft in favor of state aviation.
Meanwhile, Ukraine's National Security and Defense Council took a decision to close the airspace over the area of the so-called anti-terror operation to commercial flights three days ago, Rosaviatsia reported.
This goes back to our post from last night in which we wondered just why and how did it happen that flight MH-17 diverted from its usual trajectory to fly over what was effectively restricted airspace. This also is the topic of a follow up piece by Bloomberg released overnight in which it was noted that "Malaysian Air Flight Took Route Avoided by Qantas, Asiana:"
Qantas hasn’t used the route for a few months, said Andrew McGinnes, a spokesman for the Australian carrier, while Hong Kong-based Cathay Pacific said it has been detouring for “quite some time.” Korean Air Lines Co. and Asiana Airlines Inc. said in statements they have been avoiding the area since March 3.
One hopes that all lingering questions about the flight path, and where the instructions to change it came from, will be answered when the contents of the flight black box are released.
And finally, as RT reported, the national governor of the Donetsk region, Pavel Gubarev, admitted that while the separatists indeed are in possession of one BUK missile unit, it is not operational, and even if it was, it would be unable to reach a height of over 30,000 feet without central radar guidance which the Donetsk region does not have, once again suggesting that a Surface to Air Missile, if indeed one was used, came from the Ukraine side. Surely it will be very easy for international monitors to validate this report.
We will ignore circulating reports of two Ukraine jets that may have followed the Boeing as there is, at least for now, zero direct or circumstantial evidence validating this story aside from one Twitter account which has since been deleted.
In brief the plot thickens, and all that matters now is whose propaganda, read media outlets, will be more persuasive although in reality even that is moot: in the echo chambers of ideology, most people already have their mind made up as to "who" the shooter was.
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PAGING REVREX HASBARAS CALLING!:-)
Memo from NWO:
You mean Russians will be allowed to give their side of the story?
This cannot be allowed. We need WW3 to reputiate national debts and kill off the useless eaters. How else are we going to convince the sheeple to commit mass suicide while we get even richer?
Now the games begin in earnest.
Will be interesting to see where this leads
Isn't it interesting how Russian state media presents precise details and facts while USSA state media whips up vague generalizations appealing to emotion.
Putin: You gave missiles to who?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zi92pRbG8ms
The Big QUESTION IS: Who Sent That Doomed Plane Over The Center Of THE WAR ZONE ?????
Its The At THe Heart Of This Tradgedy AND Pretty Fucking Clear...
One Wonders, Is Anyone Sending A Civil Plane To Fly Over GAZA Today???
Ocam"s Razor. The simple, true answer is.....flight paths are chosen mostly to save fuel. Malaysia Air is like all other airlines....trying desperately to save money on fuel by flying shortest, quickest routes. Diverting around Ukraine would have cost a lot of money. Plus there were safe lanes across Ukraine.
The Russians shot this plane down being trigger happy after downing a Ukrainian jet right before.
You were on a factual course there for a bit Jumbo. Then ya pulled a crazy Ivan at the end.
Or maybe it is Turret's?
pods
Jumo is a faggot.
I got a question, we killed like a million non-combatants in Iraq, why is 300 dead here a big deal?
I mean, it sucks, but in the big scheme of things we (the US for all those arguers) probably kills this many innocents in a month RIGHT NOW.
pods
You're right, it's not a big deal in reality but in the media it is because the picture being painted is one of a radical Russian gov't that shot down a civilian airliner. US media is playing with your emotions. In Iraq the picture painted was some wonderful freedom fighting Merikans liberating a nation of its oil.... I mean, dictator.
"Humanitarian efforts" always make people back a movement, even if the underlying reasons (oil, USD reserve status) are not fully disclosed.
I'm really astonished how the utopian libertarians in the comments section of ZeroHedge are such ardent supporters of Russia's newest dictator. You guys bash/hate America, the western economic system, American workers, American corporations - basically everything American - and you guys LOVE Putin. Serious MAN-crush. I remember a ZH article about Putin some time ago showing pictures of Putin with guns and hunting and doing sporting events, and you guys were LUSTING after him. *LOL* Unreal. Who would have ever guessed that libertarians would sympathize with Russian dictators? A few years ago at ZH, this was unheard of.....
ZH readers still have a somewhat reasonable amount of common sense, and like to think with their own brains regardless what media is force feeding them.
Which is not something that can be said about you, for one thing... Too much cognac, I guess ?
In the Putin/Obama game, yes, ZH loves Putin. How could you not?
Thats as far as it goes. I think the average Russian and the average American have more in common with each other than they do with their respective 'leaders'.
Correct. We are watching the game and knowing what the moves mean. I trust Putin's shadow government no more than I trust Obomba's shadow government. Putin is concerned with his control over Europe through the state controlled (but publicly traded) Gazprom. Remember what happened to E Ukraine independents when they trusted Putin would assist them in the vote of independence? Now the poor guys are disillusioned.
Yeah, I guess they looked into his eyes and saw KGB.
Why is no one questioning the Russian side of the story. The fact that they are monitoring military radar is a little fucked up in and of itself. Let's not forget it's THEIR SAM systems we are talking about so their statement that other missile batteries share information and command control seems like a no brainer for a Russian Hacker.
End of the day, tensions are so high that some schmuck fired prematurely and the poor bastards on that flight paid for it. Obama has no balls. He will not attack gingivitis at this point even if Russia admitted it, taunted him and called his father Frank Davis a capitalist or something.
Putin has what he wants. He doesn't want Western Ukraine and doesn't want any stupid excuse for Western involvement because he ain't as strong as he's presenting.
But then again, Barry is a little scary sometimes.
http://www.jpattitude.com/Images/ObamaBiking.jpg
SATOSHI WE LOVE YOU!!
The internet has saved the world...
Again.
I'm pretty sure the globalists are fuckin pissed.
MOSCOW (AP) -- A top pro-Russia rebel commander in eastern Ukraine has given a bizarre version of events surrounding the Malaysian jetliner crash - suggesting many of the victims may have died days before the plane took off.
The pro-rebel website Russkaya Vesna on Friday quoted Igor Girkin as saying he was told by people at the crash site that "a significant number of the bodies weren't fresh," adding that he was told they were drained of blood and reeked of decomposition.
LINK
Is anyone else thinking what I'm thinking???? 370?
Nah... couldn't be... could it?
I think the whole thing is a distraction from Gaza conflict.
http://www.democracynow.org/2014/7/18/glenn_greenwald_why_did_nbc_pull
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/cnn-reporter-calls-israelis-cheeri...
This may be the final onboard passenger unverified video that was reportedly posted to Instagram:
http://www.planbeconomics.com/2014/07/the-final-video-from-malasian-boei...
Missle whisle. How do we know it wasn't a bomb?
Here's the Russian side of the story: "Oooppps. We fucked up." Bitches.
I see you have another incarnation.
The name may have changed, but you still throw out clickbait and try to drum up traffic for your shitty blog.
Do us all a favor and do that bullshit somewhere else; you are stinking up the joint.
At least he's retarded. That's one thing he has going for him.
Very interesting. Identification of bodies is therefore critically important: fingerprints, DNA, dental, etc. How many of these people are actually supposed to be on this plane? Furthermore, can all the components of this plane be independently verified (serial numbers, other unique identifiers) as belonging to the 777 that was supposed to be in the air this week, or are we dealing with 370 or some kind of hybrid? Don't aircraft have some kind of transponders? Can they be spoofed?
It is essential that Kiev NOT be involved in the crash scene investigation. They are on the side of the psychopaths and will taint whatever they touch. Same goes for Americans and proxies. Whatever they touch is poison. The only investigation that will have a shred of credibility is one manned by outsiders. Suggestion: Ask the Chinese to take over post-haste. They have very well trained and experienced investigators, and are easily distinguished from locals, who might have ulterior motives.
Was Ukraine’s Ministry of Interior behind the Downing of Malaysian Airlines MH17?
Where was MH17 prior to arrival in Amsterdam? Where was the last place that it refueled? Could equipment and bodies and other things OR EVEN THE PLANE ITSELF be switched over at Amsterdam? Is there a secure hangar out of public view where hijinks could occur? Besides the crash site and ATC and other weirdness immediately prior to the crash, investigators will also necessarily have their work cut out for them in Amsterdam, and maybe other airports as well.
You raise genuinely interesting points. The third sentence seems a little far fetched, though:
OK, let's say that someone has the resources and technical capability to swap out (or duplicate perfectly) the avionics, black box recorder, and all other unique identifiers associated with MH17 and put them on another plane, and could do it well enough to get away with it undetected. There's still one big problem. To switch the plane, you need another plane.
Where is someone going to find another Malaysian Airlines passenger jet like MH17? It's not the kind of thing that someone would simply misplace or lose track of. Those things don't just disappear, you know. Somebody would notice pretty quickly that it was missing.
There are also unconfirmed reports of bizarre phenomena, such as some of the corpses of victims appearing to be bloodless, and having an overwhelming stench of a corpse which had been rotting for more than a day. Clearly such accounts are manifestations of the combined stress of living in a war zone and then having this tragedy literally land on top of you.
I mean, come on, having a spare 777 around is improbable enough, but having enough corpses in cold storage to fill a plane at a moment's notice? Such a combination of wetwork and edgework is inconceivable.
If there's one thing we should have learned from 911 and all the other false flags, it is that psychopaths think big.
Addendum: Looking back, it appears that this was a false trail, but it is worth remembering for posterity just how hard and shamelessly the mainstream media pushed the "Russia's Fault" narrative within moments of the actual event. Journalism seems abandoned.
Duplicate post, subsequently deleted. What's happening to ZH? It's taking 10 minutes to post a comment. Is the site under attack? Never seen this before.
Was Vladimir Putin’s plane targeted?
Duplicate post. Disregard.
Duplicate post. Disregard.
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Update: Since posting this article, we have received reports to the effect the Spanish Air controller is fake and that the twitter message were sent out of London.
We will be investigating the matter.
Hopefully, they will find some passports in pristine condition....soze the identification of the bodies will be much easier.
Even if the passengers onboard aren't tererwrists....a find like that would help
Hopefully, they will find some passports in pristine condition....soze the identification of the bodies will be much easier.
Even if the passengers onboard aren't tererwrists....a find like that would help
I think the chances of unspoiled evidence must be just about zero.
Think you'll find the bodies would in a shocking state from the crash, and decomp sets in quickly in the open.
+1
The simple fact is, "the separatists" don't have an air force for the Ukrainians to target. This was an accidental shoot down by the Russian side, what the plane was doing that far east is the only mystery.
the BUK missile system doesnt just use 1 truck as widely reported, it needs multiple trucks in triangulation to be able to work and target anything at those altitudes, all trucks need skilled operators to work in unison to fire a missile and hit a target.
so captuing just a BUK unit on its own is not really a problem, but having the entire portable system in place with all units working together means you control that airspace up to 40,000 easily
so how did these rebels get hold of the entire system and where did they get the technicians skilled enough in running a complex ground to air system like this?
we lost 9 people from melbourne australia here alone, 27 all up from australia, the russians to be killing australians is not something we are liking right now, and i want nothing more than to find all of those responsible, from the top down to the bottom.. and drop them out of a plane at 32,000 feet and give them the same chance they gave the children from melbourne they murdered.
RIP and we will not forget the deaths of the children father and mothers that were murdered.
It was the Russians providing air cover for the separatists no doubt in my mind but it was an accident. I can't believe anyone would do it on purpose in a world where there are satellites trained on every warfare hotspot.
They know where it came from, like I say, the only mystery to me is, why did the plane venture so far "off course" (off course being a relative term) it was a hundred miles away from "normal" flight paths for that area.
You can see it most prominently coming from Turkey (for example), they skirt behind the Russian-Ukraine border to go north, they go east of it. Its like a sky train.
The Russians did it, no doubt.
nmewn said:
and
You sound like you're still trying to convince yourself of this. ;)
No up or down arrows from me on this one, my friend. While I believe that the Kiev junta stands to benefit most from this incident, and am also convinced that the Yatzis and their CIA masters are sufficiently lacking in any morals which would prevent them from carrying out an attack on a passenger jet, I cannot honestly state that I have no doubts as to what really transpired. It's just too soon and there are still too many unknowns.
At this stage, I believe the best approach is to see if any possibilities can be ruled out based on what is already known.
I'll leave you with some food for thought:
http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.com/2014/07/evidence-continues-to-emerge-m...
http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.com/2014/07/memories-recollection-guesses-...
Denis Pushilin resigned earlier. Was he disgraced?
dup
double dup
Well no ups or downs from me either my man.
But the fact remains that a AN-26 (Ukrainian) was downed by a missle July 14, a Ukrainian SU-25 was shot down (don't know if it was a mssile or not) on July 16 and then this on July 17...all east of Donetsk...all in this time period.
I really do think it was an accident, that is, they didn't identify the plane properly. And I don't think the "separatists" are trained or coordinated enough to use the weapon system required to reach 33k ft.
So thats why I think the Russians did it, by accident.
The Ukrainians are the party that have a demonstrated history of command and control failure when it comes to SAMs and passenger aircraft:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/1359353/Ukraine...
Ukraine admits it shot down Russian airliner
By Ben Aris in Moscow12:01AM BST 13 Oct 2001
Ukraine finally admitted yesterday that its military shot down a Russian airliner that crashed into the Black Sea last week, killing all 78 passengers and crew.This is a fact and not an opinion.
lol...point well taken Palmer.
I don't have a dog in the fight one way or the other but in both cases it was accidental and apparently the commercial pilots that fly around over there are completely oblivious to military types lobbing missiles all over the place.
Just makes me want to run out and by a one-way ticket on Aeroflot or Malaysian Air ;-)
Cheers nmewn.
This place would be nothing without opinions. Point well taken on the airlines...
Yeah, everybody has them, influenced by past experience & knowledge or bias, I'm no different. Putin is just as much of a snake as O'Barry IMO, thats just my bias until proven otherwise.
But the issue with the airlines, more particularly the captain, the pilot. Unless something has changed that I'm not aware of, they are the masters (at sea or in the air) they basically own your ass, by virtue of their command of the vessel.
Point being, they don't have to follow instructions from anyone (though they'll deal with the ramifications of that when they get to port or land) in bringing their ship (or plane) in safely. But thats their job, it goes with the territory, its their responsibility and theirs alone which gives them this power & stature on the craft.
Now I'm not trying to pin this ALL on the captain (though its going to seem like it), I'm just saying he should have known where he was at all times and he definitely knew he was over the Ukraine without a doubt where things are...shall we say "unsettled"...and there's not a damned thing he can do in a passenger jet once a surface to air missile is fired at him by either side.
I'd like to know why he was where he was (eastern Ukraine instead of further west, flying southeast or due south) and if he was "advised" to take that route or if he strayed off course.
At any rate, he shouldn't have been there to be fired at, given what the entire world knows is going on in the region and in this age of GPS, through incompetence or "advice", he was. He was in charge of 298 lives, I think you or I would take that as a heavy responsibility regardless of what happens to us later, its what captains do.
Maybe I'm way off base here but thats how I think about captains and their burden.
Its not like they've become insane, semi-literate taxi drivers in NYC...I hope ;-)
I'd like to know why he was where he was (eastern Ukraine instead of further west, flying southeast or due south) and if he was "advised" to take that route or if he strayed off course.
Agreed.
Last air traffic direction was from Kiev if I'm reading the reports correctly.
Addendum: The divergence from the regular route by MH-17 over that hot zone is the primary point worth investigating IMO.
Any thoughts?
Skinny thread, if addressed to me...yes.
Thats what I want to know too.
The separatists are in charge of the wreckage...and the black boxes, which some sources say have been transported to Moscow instead of Kiev.
National sovereignty or sumpin ;-)
Mixed reports on possession of the black boxes to date.
Habeas corpus still exists at least in this scenario. Time will tell. Oh and propaganda. Lots of propaganda....
Can we get some Swedes in control of this shit show? Anybody? The Swiss perhaps?
"The simple fact is, "the separatists" don't have an air force for the Ukrainians to target."
Sure they do. It's right next door in RUSSIA.
You think Russia hasn't been running aerial surveilance on behalf of their separatist bretheren?
If you were in the UK position, wouldn't you try to knock that out? Think of the propaganda value.
No doubt the UK has their own aerial surveilance as well. Would the Russians target that? Possibly.
Therefore:
Either side had the capability to make a mistake, if that's what this is.
The first question here should be what was that plane doing in harms way?
Who ordered that?
A separatist air force: "Sure they do. It's right next door in RUSSIA."
Certainly so but the plane was headed SE, it wasn't headed west or NW (from Russia). They would also know it was civilian as it was tracked across all the way across the Ukraine.
In a conspiratorial flight of fancy, I could see them not warning it off but not shooting it down. Thats the thing, why was it where it was in the first place, the pilot had to know where he was at.
We still assume Malaysian pilots kinda sorta have their shit together ;-)
"The fact that they are monitoring military radar is a little fucked up in and of itself."
????
Every nation on Earth monitors the electronic emissions of it's neighbours, to the degree it has time, money, personnel and technology to do so.
The US has spent literally hundreds (realistically thousands) of BILLIONS of dollars over the years putting up satellites, listening posts, passive radar receivers, IR imaging cameras, spy ships, etc to listen in to just about every mouse fart on the entire electro-magnetic spectrum, throughout the entire world.
It's a surface to air missile system, owned by a neighbouring country that you're currently at odds with... wouldn't you monitor those frequencies?
It's not that sinister; it's a line of radio receivers with directional antennae. You pick up a given frequency on a few of them and see what direction the signal comes from. The frequency, pulse-repetition frequency and sometimes modulation tell you a whole lot about what your neighbour is using it for, as well as where it is (down to a mile or so). It's actual DEFENCE technology, as opposed to the murder weapons our governments like to give the same label, in the name of not upsetting the sheeple!
"In the Putin/Obama game, yes, ZH loves Putin. How could you not?"
Exactly.
Putin drives an APC and wrestles bears.
Obama rides a bicycle and plays golf.
Need I say more?
Occam is a cunt.
.
But even using Occam's very own theory regarding 9/11 - the simple answer is - it was an inside job.
what, you don't think that boxcutters can turn three huge buildings into dust?
Why are commercial airliners flying over war zones?
by Order the whole story
http://www.globalresearch.ca/was-ukraines-ministry-of-interior-behind-th...
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/07/18/us-ukraine-crisis-flightplan-i...
all other links in this
http://www.davidicke.com/headlines/spanish-air-controller-kiev-borispol-...
The Spanish air controller confirms a conflict between the Ministry of Defense and the Ministry of the Interior intimating that the order concerning the downing of the aircraft came from the Ministry of the Interior, which is dominated by Svoboda and Right Sector.
‘This Kiev air traffic controller is a citizen of Spain and was working in the Ukraine. He was taken off duty as a civil air-traffic controller along with other foreigners immediately after a Malaysia Airlines passenger aircraft was shot down over the Eastern Ukraine killing 295 passengers and crew on board.
He also said that the MH17 flight was escorted by Ukrainian fighter jets minutes before it was downed. It is worth noting that the presence of the Ukraine fighter jets reported by the Spanish air traffic controller was confirmed by eyewitness reports in the Donetsk region:
Ahhh, back to ZH for some sanity and logical discussion. The whole world is stuck in PMS mode it seems.
Is that served with one lump or two of Mencken?
Hey organ grinder's monkey, the US is the Number One Liar in the World. Has been for a long time.
BTW, what teat of government do you suck on?
Teat?
No, he's sucking a bit further down.
"Some years ago"??? And you have been a member of this community for how long? Tell Me!
Ah, 31 weeks 6 days, is that so?
Poor kid, they don't teach coherence at those shilling classes, do they, and you didn't seem to have some of your own to start with.
Go back to watching pron, you fool.
You need not convince a man that he is wrong to win and argument. All you must do is allow him to see that other points of view exist.
Then allow his intellect to do the work for you.
That does, unfortunately, require that your opponent has the kind of critical thinking skills that modern education seems dead set on stifling at all costs. Workers don't need to think - that's the boss's job.
I'm bemused by the inclusion of Mencken in your nom de plume. HLM is one of my three favorite figures of all time. I have read him for almost two decades, including this morning. (I read his essay The Intolerable Burden in which he savages credulity, quite apropos to this discussion.) I named my son Henry. And so I'm quite sure the Baltimore Sage would fall in with "utopian libertarians" you deride and scoff at your credulity. If you recall Mencken rejected the war against the Kaiser, and was even skeptical of the early US case against Hitler. In short, HLM derided the MSM just as heartily as the faithful do here. I think he'd feel quite at home here on ZeeHedge.
+1 from another Mencken fan
how true
I wish the real Mencken were her now
that'd be a show
If Mencken were around today, his Mercedes would mysteriously accelerate into a tree and burst into flames, and afterwards a Jewish cleanup squad would arrive before the police to "render aid."
The same Menken that wrote this?
"I admit freely enough that, by careful breeding, supervision of environment and education, extending over many generations, it might be possible to make an appreciable improvement in the stock of the American negro, for example, but I must maintain that this enterprise would be a ridiculous waste of energy, for there is a high-caste white stock ready at hand, and it is inconceivable that the negro stock, however carefully it might be nurtured, could ever even remotely approach it. The educated negro of today is a failure, not because he meets insuperable difficulties in life, but because he is a negro. He is, in brief, a low-caste man, to the manner born, and he will remain inert and inefficient until fifty generations of him have lived in civilization. And even then, the superior white race will be fifty generations ahead of him."
Granted it was 1910, but he was 30 at the time and as an educated, widely read man, really ought to have known better.
There is no "western economic system". There are banks, controlling the flow of gold, oil, currency, and interest rates. That's not productivity in the economic sense.
When banks took hold of the "western economic system", it was doomed to failure. You're watching failure unfold in real time.
The spice must flow
Goes to show you how long it has been since the US has seen a REAL leader who puts his countries best interests ahead of his own.
When contrasted against Obama, Putin seems to be a good point of reference.
ZH has been overrun by Russian astroturfers ever since the Russian attacks on Ukraine began. Putin has the largest disinformation apparatus in the world, outside of Israel. China and U.S. are laggards in comparison.
When Putin nukes NYC, Putin's useful fools at ZH will get their just deserts.
"When Putin nukes NYC, Putin's useful fools at ZH will get their just deserts."
Any word on the scheduling re: this? Getting a bit impatient myself.
I think Washington DC would be a more ethical target, myself.
Where do you think Washington gets its orders from? Remember when Obama announced that Geithner was resigning, and Geithner said, "No, I'm not"? That should have made clear who works for whom.
Personaly I love Double Whoppers!
Putin has so far kept the US out of Syria and Iran. Other than zionists and neoconservatives, who's got a problem with that?
Yea we're all Putin lovers! Russia pays me 10 sheckloks an hour with a paid 1/2hour break every 3 hours because it's cold here and my bladder is needing emptying.
I'm no Putin lover however, have a look at our western leaders responses to yesterdays catastrophe.
The first thing McCain and Clinton say's is "We need to better train and directly arm the Ukraine Military"
So, their answer is more killing, more war, more bloodshed to what end????
Our knuckle Dragging Australian PM acted like a spoiled school girl and implied guilt initially to Russia and by Noon had stopped implying it and came straight out and blamed Putin and Russia.
Even IF Russia is found to be guilty of this catastrophe which, I sincerely doubt, the correct response from Diplomats and World Leaders should have been diametrically opposed to what they stated yesterday. I was embarrassed by our PM yesterday. It was churlish, unprofessional and came from a man with an IQ no higher than a 'punchy boxer' on his last legs.
If you cannot see what many of us here on ZH see, which is, I shall lay it out clearly, "That the US is seeking to have a war with Russia!"
It has been clear since the lead up to Sochi Olympics but, has been scripted before that. Putin has acted responsibly not to inflame the war on his doorstep imo and has continually asked the UN and World Leaders to broker talks in eastern Ukraine as he has stated that war cannot fix the real issues that country has.
The US has supported the fascist Nazi regime and publicly endorsed their ethnic cleansing actions. That is why at this point of time, I support Putin.
I am very concerned for my loved ones, my countrymen AND for the innocents of Russia and Ukraine who are facing this obvious onslaught from the US military complex. If you cannot see that this is the same script that has been used for Iraq and Libya, you are blind or choose to be.
The individual US citizen are generally good people BUT, the time has come where they HAVE to start to become responsible for the continued covert and aggressive actions of their rogue government.
Yes, there are good reasons to admire Putin's leadership style compared to the western Criminal Class, who I suspect were busy planning some dastardly deed whilst Putin was out-and-about forming strategic alliances, as are other BRICSA nations:
Saturday, July 12, 2014 - BUENOS AIRES (Reuters) - Russian President Vladimir Putin signed a nuclear energy cooperation deal with Argentina on Saturday on a trip to bolster trade ties and strengthen Russia's influence in Latin America. Putin's visit comes as Argentina stares down the barrel of another debt crisis.
Putin has called Argentina one of Russia's most strategically important allies in Latin America. The Russian leader, who is under pressure from the West to help restrain pro-Russian separatists in Ukraine, told reporters in Buenos Aires that the two nations "cooperated in all areas".
Where was al-Obama while Putin was doing something useful by tying to thwart some low-down western Banksters? al-Obama was probably shootin' pool, doing a doobie, or gawd forbid he was eating a greasy hamburger, 'cause if Michelle found out about it she'd be a real mean bitch whenever al-Obama got back to the White House.
.
Anyone notice the following: Putin hosts a very successful Olympics....he comes back to US coup in Ukraine? He just completed a successful Sth american tour, with launch of BRICS development Bank, now he comes back to this Kiev-US shit trying to implicate him in their shoddy downing of anothe Malay flight. Obviously they are desparate....the end must be much closer than we think! We need that war NOW!
The are not Russians, just Westerners with terminal cynicism.
If Putin nukes NYC, a lot of us flyover country types aren't gonna much care.
Libertarianism is foundationally grounded in non-aggression, unlike the foundations of govt. leaders. Therefore, if that's the case, they aren't libertarians.
"western economic system"
Can you be any more vaque?
"system"?
Only those who have freedom of speech can support fascism with such zeal. The 20th century had its share of dictators who were popular with the retarded voters. Putin is da man now, there will be others.
Its less of a pro-putin thing, than an "I'm against NWO stooges using false flags and cobbled up evidence to try and spark WW3".
I guess we're a little sensitive to that kind of thing....
Double post,
Anyone else having trouble accessing ZH over the last 24 hrs. Commenting is slow and lots of articles not loading.
Don't want to go all "tinfoil hat" but is someone trying to slow the other side of the Malaysia Flight story?
The real Mencken would have shit all over you for saying something that stupid.
There's global realignment going on right now. And, it also seems that some in the US govt are pushing for a war with Russia. In both cases, it must appear that you are on the side of 'the good guys', to sell your actions to the appropriate publics. It's tougher to come to the assistance of people who shoot down innocent people in civilan airliners. And, its easier to justify going to war with 'a wicked regime' that shoots down innocent people in civilian airliners.
IMO that's one reason this is getting so much attention.
Putin is Don Coreleone with nukes. He's getting old. He wants to use them before he dies.
If Putin was simply a madman who wanted to shoot his load, I'm sure he wouldn't be asking the international community for their blessing to do so.
Try again.
I dont remember this much fuss when Ukraine accidentally shot down a Russian airliner ten years ago.
Oh wait, no money was to be made from that.
How many abortions per day in the USSA?
Who's going to pay your SS retirement?
Killing of the next generation of undesirables in the mind of the elites.
Eugenics anyone, oh and don't worry there are nearly 7 billion replacements, right?
DaddyO
Downing Of Flight MH 17: False Flag Operation To Blame Russia?
I have to admit, false flag was absolutely my first thought too.
Agree. Like the final piece to a big puzzle.
Its a big deal because an innocent white person from the west could have been killed here whereas Iraq involved brown people or military personel who are not perceived as innocent. Just like the Palistinians in Gaza
So why is it a big deal when Israel kills 300 Palestinians? Two weights two measures anyone?
So why is it a big deal when Israel kills 300?? In the zino-MSM, it is not.
Vomited like a spurned lover. Happy Friday ingot balls.
Getting Past The Lies
Flying over a warzone is one thing. Stupid.
Flying over a warzone, and THEN CHANGING COURSE is suicidal. Its exactly what an army on the lookout for a nasty surprise would be weary of.
If the pilots good, he can get down around tree top level, frying chickens in the barnyard.
So what happened to the stupid idiots who claimed the plane could not have been shot down by Russia because it was shot down in the western Ukraine?
You people are morons, plain and simple.
You mean the people who saw the flight tracker image with the flight path STOPPING in western Ukraine?
pods
The trolls are out in force suddenly. Don't want this operation being questioned. Top notch work guys. Money well spent.
Divide and conquer is so easy, even a criminal can do it!
The more one tries to point out various disinfo/info flaws, the more opportunity it provides the destroyers of rationality.
Gotta admit, it's pretty impressive how they can hide the truth in broad daylight by drowning out the signal with near infinite noise.
Disinformation. The day I realized it exists, was the day I realized I'm not, nor am I going, crazy.
"It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so." -- Mark Twain
This, of course, is the reason so much of the livestock herding budget is spent on disinformation.
"Mark Twain is full of shit." - Thomas Jefferson
The low information useful idiot amplifiers with bad cases of confirmation bias do the work for them just fine without them knowing they are doing it. Though you can tell who the agent provecateurs are, they are the ones riling them up spewing the sky is falling crap that is not even revelant to the issues at hand. Usually stuff like 2 year old news stories passing them off as current events like the DHS is going to turn on the people ignoring the fact they only have about 50,000 people in the whole DHS, hardly enough to control a whole state let alone the country and you see how well they can control the border. But the confirmation bias useful idiots don't do any critical thinking or vetting of the information before amplfying the FUD these provacateurs are trying to spread.
Or what some stooge said was the flight tracker image of MH-17 STOPPING in western Ukraine.
Pretty amazing what you can do with a hacked file if you really want to.
This is the internet, partner, and disinformation is the coin of the realm.
So unless you can convince me that you are an expert in radar analysis and can give me access to said file for an analyics run ... it's just another day at the fight club.
Stupid idots ehh?
I don't recall making such a claim about what you say. Yet you lump me in with them. STFU with your stupid generalizations.
Derp di derp di doo!
revRex Member here 6 weeks. I make that 2 paychecks.
What's disgusting is how little he is being paid.
Soros was advertizing in Craigslist for internet forum workers for ACORN at $14 an hour at the start of the 2007 Obama campaign.
ZH is being attacked by ACORN hobos working for booze money. It beats jacking off at public library internet workstations, I guess.
LOL, I remember working at a library during the early early days of the Internet. You DID NOT go around looking at people's screens. Unless you like surprises.
revRex Member here 6 weeks. I make that 2 paychecks.
You would have to be an idiot to believe that Russia wanted this. How would this possibly benefit them?
On the other had, who could benefit by this tragedy? Hmmmm.
Any suggestions RevRex?
You are correct that Russia would have no desire to shoot down an airliner. However, war is filled with mistakes. It is virtually certain that Russian defenses near eastern Ukraine are on high alert. So, an unidentified blip comes across their radar and they get no response from their "identify friend or foe" ping, and lock onto the target. There isn't much difference in the radar response to an airliner and the radar image of a strategic bomber. Tensions are high. Ukrainian rhetoric has cast Russia as an invader, and that the two nation's are at war, now. So, staring at the radar blip and fearing they were about to be incinerated by a nuke (are we certain Ukraine has none left from the cold war?), the fire button gets pushed. Oh hell yes, Russia certainly could have downed that plane. Remember, the vaunted U.S. Navy shot down an Iranian airliner in 1988. As discussed by others, flying an airliner over a war zone is reckless and damned near suicidal. Its a sad story, but I mostly blame Malaysian Airlines. I wouldn't fly with them - they have recently had a hard time knowing where their planes are.
Good theory, but Ukraine does not operate any strategic bombers - those left post USSR were either decomissioned or returned to Russia.
That is retarded. As many have stated, the same flight was travelling farther south on previous days as per flight tracking sites. So, while it is possible that they decided to save money on this day, it is also odd that they didn't do so for many days prior. I would let the dust settle on this one before making any definitive comments.
Meanwhile this is very tragic because it was so unnecessary, so totally avoidable and is now being used in a political pissing match. No respect whatsoever.
Not that this is definitive by any means, but this map shows a direct flight path going south of Ukraine. (mostly) Definitely south of Donetsk.
Would the flight have been re-routed north intentionally? I have seen that question a lot today and yesterday.
https://www.google.com/maps/dir/52.3040946,4.7609717/Kuala+Lumpur,+Feder...!4m9!4m8!1m0!1m5!1m1!1s0x31cc49c701efeae7:0xf4d98e5b2f1c287d!2m2!1d101.686855!2d3.139003!3e4
I don't believe that's an actual map of the flight path. I think it's Google's attempt to show the shortest distance between Amsterdam and KL. Sites like Flightaware and Flightradar24 give a much more accurate flight path for just about any commercial flights.
Shame this happened. I was in KL less than a month ago on a side trip from Singapore. The Malaysians, by and large, are pretty easy going people. It's a shame that in the space of a very short time, they've had one plane go missing and a second plane shot out of the sky. The definitely do NOT deserve this.
that's idiotic. this flight has flown the route regularly for the last month and every single instance they have flown it south of that war zone. Global airliners have treated that area as a no fly zone for a while. This plane was re routed to a course north of the route its taken the 10 prior times it had flown. This has nothing to do with fuel, but everything to do with an intentional shoot down of a defenseless jet for as yet unknown purposes.
Check under your bed I think there's a rusky under there!
SHIT! They just used to be under ever rock! See what happens! Joe McCarthy was right*
*think about that one for a while, folks
This is indeed a pertinent question. A commercial flight crossing a known warzone is odd to say the least.
This one was much further north than all the other traffic. So it would stand out to anyone on the ground because no other commercials fly over that route.
pods
That major and straight-forward question will never be asked by mainstream media.
Whoever diverted that plane into a hot war-zone (Ukrainian Air Traffic Controller most likely) committed mass murder.
The world is as cynical as it ever has been!
But nowadays, with all the tools we the people posses, we can monitor in real-time our leader's cynicism.
If it comes down to that one question, who diverted the flight north, then we have the answer, Ukraine ATC.
Then we're 99% sure who was responsible for downing the flight, Ukraine government.
Then we know it was a false flag and the Obama administration gets another horrible embarrassment since they came out early blaming it on Russia.
Then Putin might say "enough of this shit", and it might be WWIII.
Remember, WWI began over a singe assasination. Now we have a civilian airliner with 200 some odd people shot down. Granted, not the first one. But this one happened in the middle of the biggest superpower clash in modern times, and is easily proven to be a false flag.
I must be the only one on ZH to have seen the weather map which made the plane change course from the prescribed route. Of course by ignoring that you can have a multitude of BS.
You mean that choosing between likely thunders and surface-air missiles, they picked the missiles?
That makes sense...
As a pilot, lighting strikes and weather systems are a very serious and real danger to flying. In case you didn't know.
It's easy to sit here in hindsight and say "how could the pilots not know about the surface to air missle threat." But, really, it's just as plausible that the crew didn't realize the seriousness of the situation on the ground and instead opted to fly around a threatening weather system.
The thing is, you, nor I, really don’t know what the crew was thinking. And now with the crash site being compromised we may never truly know.
The black box audio record will have any cockpit chatter about weather systems and a decision to go around.
This particular question is easily answered. I think in the end it will become obvious that the pilots knew what they were doing, but simply did not understand the risk. For civil aviation, this is a new game. Clearly they all just learned (or at least, verified) an important operational issue.
I wish you were the pilot.
Passengers get testy when their drinks get spilled. Never mind that pesky July 8 NOTAM.
( note to self, do not ever fly Malaysian )
Yup!
It's a plane and there were options. Go back if you have to. Declare an emergency and land.....something.... flying over a war zone is just such a poor choice.
No you are not.
It's all about the "selective" information the media feeds us. ZH included. People go off spraying their conspiracy crap all over this place without thinking that they may not have all the info to begin with.
Is that why the black boxes are being confiscated? So we can get all the information?
Tons of information has come to light because of this cynical view of the world. You will learn nothing unless you constantly question everything.
Nope, I saw that too. So....
On the same weather plot from Thursday, you'll also have seen that had they instead avoided the weather (admittedly a moderately nasty but localised squall) by going by a more southerly route than normal, they'd have avoided the weather AND been able to pick up a 45 knot tailwind for about the next 250-300 miles that would have more than made up for the fuel burned in what would have been a relatively minor southerly diversion.
And to short circuit the argument that they might not have known about said tailwind... the seven or so other northern Europe to Far East flights that were using the same corridor at around the same time all seemed to know about it, as they were all routing southeast until in about the middle of the Sea of Azov, before turning more Easterly - in order to get on it and hitch a cheap ride.
Go look, it's all there for anyone to see.
Yeah, funny how just that one flight took the northern route.