This page has been archived and commenting is disabled.
Russia Says Has Photos Of Ukraine Deploying BUK Missiles In East, Radar Proof Of Warplanes In MH17 Vicinity
Ukraine hasn’t said how it immediately knew rebels downed Malaysian plane, notes the Russian Foreign Ministry, as it unveils 10 awkward questions for Ukraine (and perhaps the US 'snap judgment') to answer about the MH17 disaster. However, what is perhaps more concerning for the hordes of finger-pointers is that:
- RUSSIA HAS IMAGES OF UKRAINE DEPLOYING BUK ROCKETS IN EAST: IFX
- RUSSIA: UKRAINE MOVED BUK NEAR REBELS IN DONETSK JULY 17: IFX
- RUSSIA DETECTED UKRAINIAN FIGHTER JET PICK UP SPEED TOWARD MH17
Obviously, if there is proof that this is so, aside from CIA-created YouTube clips, these would deal another unpleasant blow to US foreign policy.
The Russian defense ministry during its press conference which concluded minutes ago:
Here is the full clip of the Russian ministry releasing its own forensic analysis of what happened to flight MH17 (with English translation).
Russia wants to know why Ukraine moved its BUK missiles systems the day of the MH17 crash:
- RUSSIAN GENERAL STAFF HAS SPACE IMAGES OF SECTORS OF UKRAINIAN FORCES' POSITIONS IN SOUTHEASTERN UKRAINE, INCLUDING BUK MISSILE LUNCH SITES 8 KILOMETERS FROM LUHANSK - RUSSIAN DEFENSE MINISTRY - interfax
The day the Malaysian airliner crashed, the Ukrainian forces deployed an air defense group of three or four Buk-M1 missile batteries near Donetsk, Lt. Gen. Andrei Kartapolov, head of the Russian General Staff's Main Operations Department, told reporters on Monday.
"These surface-to-air systems are capable of hitting targets at a distance of up to 35 kilometers at an altitude of 22 kilometers. For what purpose and against whom were these missile systems deployed? As is known, the militia has no aviation," he said.
Russia has the flight paths of the Ukrainian fighters and MH17. Furthermore, it is asking the same question we asked last Thurday:
- RUSSIA SAYS MH17 DIVERGED 14 KM FROM FLIGHT PATH NEAR DONETSK
And wants to know why. The image (as seen in the presentation above) allegedly shows Ukraine fighter jets near MH17:
Here is a screengrab of a Su-25 fighter jet detected close to MH17 before crash.
“A Ukraine Air Force military jet was detected gaining height, it’s distance from the Malaysian Boeing was 3 to 5km,” said the head of the Main Operations Directorate of the HQ of Russia’s military forces, Lieutenant-General Andrey Kartopolov speaking at a media conference in Moscow on Monday.
“[We] would like to get an explanation as to why the military jet was flying along a civil aviation corridor at almost the same time and at the same level as a passenger plane,” he stated.
“The SU-25 fighter jet can gain an altitude of 10km, according to its specification,” he added. “It’s equipped with air-to-air R-60 missiles that can hit a target at a distance up to 12km, up to 5km for sure.”
The presence of the Ukrainian military jet can be confirmed by video shots made by the Rostov monitoring center, Kartopolov stated.
And asks for US proof of their accusations:
- RUSSIA SAYS U.S. SATELLITE FLEW OVER MH17 AT TIME IT WAS DOWNED... which would provide all the proof needed to show who is responsible - so why hasn't the US explained this or shown it?
- RUSSIA ASKS U.S. FOR EVIDENCE ROCKET FIRED FROM REBEL-HELD AREA
- RUSSIA: NO U.S. PROOF THAT MISSILE FIRED FROM REBEL-HELD AREA
- DEFENCE MINISTRY SAYS RUSSIA DID NOT DELIVER ANY SA-11 BUK MISSILE SYSTEMS TO SEPARATISTS IN EASTERN UKRAINE "OR ANY OTHER WEAPONS"
And went on to rebuke all the Twitter photos created by Maidan to 'prove' the BUKs were moving in Russian hands.
Additionally, as Russia noted using what appears to be legitimate photographic evidence (something the west has so far failed to provide in any capacity) MH17 crashed within the operating zone of the Ukrainian army’s self-propelled, medium-range surface-to-air ‘Buk’ missile systems, the Russian general said.
“We have space images of certain places where the Ukraine’s air defense was located in the southeast of the country,” Kartapolov noted.
The first three shots that were shown by the general are dated July 14. The images show Buk missile launch systems in about 8km northwest of the city of Lugansk – a TELAR and two TELs, according to the military official.
Another image shows a radar station near Donetsk.
Radar stations of the air defense in Donetsk Region, 5km north of Donetsk city, on July 14, 2014.Photo courtesy of the Russian Defense MinistryRadar stations of the air defense in Donetsk Region, 5km north of Donetsk city, on July 14, 2014.Photo courtesy of the Russian Defense Ministry
While the third picture shows the location of the air defense systems near Donetsk, he explained. In particular, one can clearly see a TELAR launcher and about 60 military and auxiliary vehicles, tents for vehicles and other structures, he elaborated.
Buk missile defense units in Donetsk Region, 5km north of Donetsk city, on July 14, 2014.Photo courtesy of the Russian Defense MinistryBuk missile defense units in Donetsk Region, 5km north of Donetsk city, on July 14, 2014.Photo courtesy of the Russian Defense Ministry
“Images from this area were also made on July 17. One should notice that the missile launcher is absent [from the scene]. Image number five shows the Buk missile system in the morning of the same day in the area of settlement Zaroschinskoe – 50km south of Donetsk and 8km south of Shakhtyorsk," the Kartapolov said.
No Buk missile defense units in Donetsk Region, 5km north of Donetsk city, on July 17, 2014.Photo courtesy of the Russian Defense MinistryNo Buk missile defense units in Donetsk Region, 5km north of Donetsk city, on July 17, 2014.Photo courtesy of the Russian Defense Ministry
Buk missile defense units in Zaroschinskoe, 50km south of Donetsk city and 8km south of Shakhtyorsk, on July 17, 2014.Photo courtesy of the Russian Defense MinistryBuk missile defense units in Zaroschinskoe, 50km south of Donetsk city and 8km south of Shakhtyorsk, on July 17, 2014.Photo courtesy of the Russian Defense Ministry
The question that has to be answered is why the missile system appeared in the area controlled by the local militia forces shortly before the catastrophe, he stated.
* * *
Summing it all up, the Russian Ministry of Foreign Affairs, has 10 questions for Ukraine (google translated)
The global public expects a speedy and independent investigation into the causes of the disaster Malaysian aircraft in the airspace of Ukraine.
In order to conduct an objective investigation of possible leadership of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation has ased ten questions to the Ukrainian side.
1. Ukrainian authorities immediately identified the militia as the perpetrators of the tragedy. What is the basis of such findings?
2. Could official Kiev to report all the details of using [BUKs] in a war zone? Most importantly - why these systems are deployed there, as the militia no planes?
3. What are the causes of inactivity of Ukrainian authorities on the formation of an international commission? When such a committee will work?
4. Are the armed forces of Ukraine international experts to present papers on accounting for missiles, air-to-air and ground-to-air ammo and anti-aircraft missiles?
5. Whether these funds objective control on the movement of the Ukrainian Air Force aircraft on the day of the tragedy brought international commission?
6. Why Ukrainian air traffic controllers allowed deviation of the route of the aircraft to the north side of the "anti-terrorist operation zone"?
7. Why was not completely closed to civilian aircraft airspace over the combat zone, especially because in this area there was no solid field of radar navigation?
8. Could official Kiev to comment on reports in the net, ostensibly on behalf of the Spanish air traffic controllers working in Ukraine, which shot down over the territory of Ukraine "Boeing" was accompanied by two Ukrainian military aircraft?
9. Why Security Service of Ukraine has begun without international representatives work with recordings of talks with Ukrainian crew dispatchers "Boeing" and Ukrainian radar data?
10. How were the lessons from previous similar disasters Russian Tu-154 in 2001 in the Black Sea? Then the leaders of Ukraine until the last minute denied any involvement of the Armed Forces of the country to the tragedy until irrefutable evidence showed no guilt official Kiev.
Unfortunately, there has been no response by the Ukraine side to these questions so far. We expect that there will be some answers.
* * *
Needless to say, this places Ukraine and The US (as main protagonist of "finger pointer") in an awkward position as finally someone, somewhere will have to present some actual facts instead of merely continuing the "emotional appeals" propaganda.
We expect many of these questions to be answered once the contents of flight MH17's black box are revealed and/or when Ukraine finally releases an undoctored version of the Air Traffic control recording with the doomed flight.
»
- 190978 reads
- Printer-friendly version
- Send to friend
- advertisements -
Would you willingly side with evil, purposefully keeping yourself ignorant of the facts so as not to face the reality of your decision?
Eveyone knows both sides are evil. It is more about who is the greater evil. If a lower grade evil can stop a higher grade evil shouldn't we root for the lower grade evil? And then thereafter also distinguish the lesser evil?
There are no good choices in any of this. It all needs to be torn down.
I've been feeling that AAMs were involved, not SAMs. The earlier reports of Ukrainian jets escorting the Boeing. and the lack of any obvious trail fom the much larger BUK SAM (does this show foreknowledge of big boobs?) in the YouTube clips, did not ring true.
Fair to say the rabid reporting in the msm here in Britain is jaw dropping - I've not seen the like of it. Wonder how they'll deal with the inevitable lack of answers? Overlook it perhaps. Even in a normal crash, it takes ages to determine the cause, and yet with this one...
We are all being stampeded to the edge of Buffalo Jump. Waiting for us at the bottom are a bunch of warmongers with sharp knives.
Yup. Digging my heels in and sighting the rifle.
Here is month ago local Elena telling of Ukr fighters shadowing Airliners.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKKoKmUtQXE&feature=youtu.be
There are many similar stories by witnesses before the tragedy..
And several witnesses that some heard jet noise after plane fell and also some saw one and others two fighters there.
some videos and too many accounts to ignore.
"If there is proof that this is so" being the key words.
This is 'peak Putin' . All downhill from here for his style of leadership interacting with higher class globalists.
The Russian military posted satellite images on its website http://stat.mil.ru/
Where are Obama's images?
Give Obama's handlers some time, doctoring images can't be done overnight.
Here's a machine translation that may provide addional insight. For me anyway, it's a lot easier to follow the audio with the translation:
Special briefing by defense Ministry of Russia on the accident flight MH17 in the sky of Ukraine
Wouldn't it be nice if Russia actually released this supposedly damning evidence, rather than talking about it? If they actually had the good this is what they would do. Putin is loosing his dream of reunifiying the Soviet Union and his only weapon is his third rate efforts at misinformation.
See the post directly above yours, or better yet, read the article you are commenting about.
Wouldn't it be nice if the West actually released their supposedly damning evidence, rather than talking about it?
Sorry, with all due respect this is useless information. The only data that matter are the imagery traces (radar and so on) of the missile's trajectory. The Russians have that but apparently aren't willing to release it. (Not until they finish faking a new set of data, at least.) The reason they haven't released it likely because it shows that their people blew up a passenger plane.
People that read newspapers already knew that Ukraine has Buk missile systems. This kind of circumstantial evidence just doesn't convince me. Russia has a very advanced cyberwarefare capability, which includes some of the worlds best misinformation and propaganda capabilities. Be smart!
Put another way: Don't you think it is wierd that they released radar of the plane, but not the missile????
Truthfully, i'm just glad someone released anything close to solid Information. I hope this'll force the West to disclose some real information, rather than the simplistic jargon they've put out so far.
Strange, the screenshot show a U.S. EF-111, not a Sukhoi Fu-25?
http://info.kopp-verlag.de/hintergruende/geostrategie/redaktion/der-lusi...
Not sure you are right
Optimator is just talking about the little cartoon jet fighter they used. It's definately not a Su-25 and has the (now retired) EF-111's distinct equpment pod on the top of the tail.
Four months seems like hardly enough time to grind off all the identifying part numbers from MH370...
Don't forget the one in Tel Aviv.
.
.
Cant wait for liars to answer this tough real honest questions!!
to be continued...
I believe Tyler is being optimistic when he says that "undoctored" versions of the controllers' and black box tapes will show what really happened to MH-17. I hope his optimism is justified. For myself, I believe the CIA-controlled Kiev military, or an ICAO fudge will prevent the truth from reaching the public.
In additon to the usual suspects (e.g. banksters, NWO, preservation of the petrodollar, MIC, etc.), IMO the Ukraine sheeeit mess is, at least in part, personal on the part of Obama.
If you recall, last August, during the Syrian dust up, Russian Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin said, the U.S. is like "a monkey with a hand grenade" in the Mideast. The American MSM and the State Dept. predictably ranted and raved about racism in Russia. Ever since then, I suspect that Obama and some of his race-hustling handlers have been on a mission to take racist Putin and Russia down. If this happens to coincide with the wishes of the banksters, NWO, etc., so be it. The more the merrier.
The danger is that if there is really an irrational emotional personal thing going inside Obama's head, the Ukraine mess could more easily blow up into a hot major war. At least the banksters are somewhat rational and would prefer to carve up Russia for profit rather wage a hot major war and destroy it. This may not be the case with Obama.
As a student of history, two mantras came thru loudly to me: 1) don't go into Afghanistan; 2) don't fuck aound wth Russia. I'm sure that Obma and the eminences grises nehind him are far too arrogant to think they need heed the lessons of history...
A search on Google News, past 24 hours, on "General Igor Makushev Russia Defense Ministry Air briefing" got 21,000+ hits. Lead hits were the Guardian, Independent and Reuters. When I added CNN, Fox, ABC, CBS, NBC, PBS, NPR, Times, Post, Boston Globe or AP I got zero hits.
So the whole world is watching, but this critical piece is blanked out in the US. Amazing how they do that!
The good part is the Whole World is Watching. The collapse of the Empire has probably not been reversed or even slowed. And the feeling that we're crazy, no one else knows or cares, is an illusion.
The bad news is the American people are once again consigned to being the Most Ignorant on Earth. Even most of the alternative press is ignoring this story, and once again our rulers have a more-or-less free hand at home.
Their day will come.
trying this against MSNBC, CNBC, CBC, Chicago or Democracy Now produced nothing. Dropping Makuchev from the search added 4000 more hits including a CBS affiliate in DC that mentioned the press conference in a story about waht Obama said and a station in Greensboro that mentioned it in a story about the Dutch outrage over militia volunteers moving rotting corpses.
There is a particularly disturbing rumor circulating in Ukraine; apparently, there is a plan to bomb a nuclear station in the east. If "successful" it would mean nuclear holocaust for the entire area, plus good bye Crimea. As usual the whole thing would be blamed on Russia.
ZH buffoons don't matter, really.
Verkhovna Rada allows foreign militaries to train in Ukraine
Saturday, April 5, 2014, 10:17
Parliament has authorized access to the military of other countries on the territory of Ukraine for military exercises in 2014. This decision was supported by 235 deputies.
The bill will allow foreign Armed Forces to enter the territory of Ukraine to participate in military exercises in 2014.
Events include:
Ukrainian-Polish exercises at the aircraft squadron level (70 military personnel, up to 5 aircraft for up to 7 days in May-October);
Ukrainian-Polish exercises of military police units under Law Order-2014 (50 military personnel with equipment and small arms for up to 7 days in May and November);
*** Ukrainian-American exercises under Rapid Trident-2014 (up to 1000 military personnel with weapons and equipment, up to 5 planes and 10 helicopters for up to 25 days in June- September);
Ukrainian-Polish exercises of aircraft units under Safe Sky-2014 (90 military personnel, up to 7 aircraft for up to 14 days in July- October);
*** Ukrainian-American exercise under Sea Breeze-2014 (up to 1800 military personnel with weapons and equipment, up to 9 ships, up to 2 submarines, up to 12 aircraft and helicopters for up to 25 days in July- October);
Multinational exercise under Light Avalanche-2014 (up to 100 military personnel with equipment for up to 7 days in August-October);
Multinational mountain infantry exercises under Carpathia-2014 (up to 30 military personnel with equipment and small arms for up to 7 days in September-October);
Ukrainian-Moldovan-Romanian of mechanized unit exercises under South-2014 (up to 200 military personnel with weapons and equipment for up to 7 days in September-October).
The original text is on Ukrayinska Pravda at: http://www.pravda.com.ua/news/2014/04/1/7020961/
Although this link says that Exercise Sea Breeze will take place on August and that Exercise Rapid Trident has been rescheduled for September
http://photos.state.gov/libraries/usnato/19452/pdfs/EUCOMOperationAtlant...
OMG.
Glad you posted this, sorry to see it.
Putin's moment to act is gone. The whole stach is bet on his Eurasia policy now, and whether the world can stop the US and NATO from crushing the Resistance in Donetsk and Lugansk. My whole heart goes out to them.
Watch the action on the Romania/Moldova/Bessarabia theatre. That's where Putin will get punked, with 2000 Russian peacekeepers in Transnistria cut off, beseiged and perhaps overrun. By then any rescue effort will lead directly to war with NATO, which he won't risk. The only other hope is that Ukraine collapses.
You can't make this shit up
Malaysia Airlines flight MH4 (Airbus A380) flew over Syria yesterday !!!
https://twitter.com/flightradar24/status/491125734929629184/photo/1
http://washingtonexaminer.com/what-could-possibly-go-wrong-malaysia-airlines-rerouting-flights-over-syria-instead-of-ukraine/article/2551075
edit
http://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/mh2/#3d8bf83
Indeed. FR24 posted on Twitter coupla days ago that a number of airlines who publicly claimed not to be flying over Ukraine for some time were still doing it. They have the radar evidence to prove it.
https://twitter.com/flightradar24/status/490026584955301888
White House 'leak': Ukraine did it
In an article today by Robert Parry in Consortium News, an intelligence source we know to be a ranking White House official told Parry the US is sitting on satellite imagery depicting Ukrainian forces shooting down MH17.
http://www.presstv.com/detail/2014/07/21/372218/white-house-leak-ukraine...
Malaysia Airlines MH17 crash: Ukrainian military jet was flying close to passenger plane before it was shot down, says Russian officer
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/malaysia-airlines-mh17-cr...
I need Germans to tell me what is in this document: http://adam.curry.com/enc/20140720012844_1801925hunkolinke.pdf
It describes something with radar jamming and milmode which most likely was used to spoof the passenger aircraft by shadowing it, turning on milmode and then locking on radar of BUK missile. The dudes, separatists, had a target to shoot but they were spoofed, this is the version I heard on one podcast.
I just got the gist but I would like to know more details what's written in this doc.
Edit: Listen https://www.noagendaplayer.com/listen/636/1-6-55 -> around 7 mins of explanation.
"Russian Foreign ministry demands the authorities of Sweden, Finland, France and Baltic states to carry out an investigation to discover if mercenaries of these countries are taking part in military action in eastern Ukraine. The statement of the ministry followed the article from the Italian news outlet Il Giornale. The publication said that mercenaries from these countries fought at the side of Kiev troops. They were a part of the so-called Azov battalion which is backed by Ukraine’s oligarch Igor Kolomoisky.
”If the information in this publication is true, then it becomes a new confirmation that foreign militants are involved in the armed Ukraine’s conflict at the intentional level,” said the Foreign Ministry."
http://rt.com/news/line/2014-07-21/#66492
One senses that this crisis, as big as it is now, is going to grow into something truly dark and massive. Control over it will be lost, and it is already slipping out of control.
The Dutch want the bodies - it will be interesting if they allow the actual identification by family members. If they cremate the bodies or just use DNA matching this will expand the scope of the false flag.
A (planned) major "Shock and Awe" type global reset could be in the works soon.
In lock step and occuring at the same time:
US/UK first strike on Russia
market crash, financial reset, debt default, new currency
nuke false flag on a US city
a suspended Constitution
Denver, the new US capitol
North American Federation (Mex.US and Canada)
(wanna be wrong) God help us all.
If thishappened, the usa would have a mad and very ugly sister.
we've been duped before, and we know it.
http://www.canadashistory.ca/Books/Book-Reviews/Reviews/Shock-Troops--br----Canadians-Fighting-the-Great-W.aspx
As well Canadians were held back from the truth (info) many lost their lives. Trust .....No Sir>
Denver? Why not Shitcago?
So you figure the US is just giving the world to China. Wipe out Russia, US, UK and most of Europe. China left to take out Japan and rule the world. Brilliant.
Since UK would be totally obliterated, not sure what inducement will get Cameron to go along with that idea.
So as a former *ahem* USAF Linguist, here's what the US likely has listed by probability:
Signals Intel on the BUK radar lighting up - Certainty, there are all sorts of platforms that could detect this, doesn't say who's firing but it should be able to geo-locate it. They would also be able to see the beam narrow from Search to Acquisition and then Lock. The territory where the missile was fired would be easy to tell. This capability is pretty well known so the US would compromise no source by revealing their evidence.
Communications Intercept - Probable intercept - The BUK system employs multiple vehicles, chances are they had to talk to each other. The US routinely intercepts these communications. There are multiple platforms within inventory that could do this, but they would have to have the sensors trained on that area and listen to the correct frequency. Even if they were able to intercept the communication, they may not still be able to tell who exactly it was taking the shot.
MASINT or heat signatures - Certainty, Missiles burn extremely hot and stick out like sore thumbs on an IR sensor, particularly as the move up through the thermal layers of the atmosphere. That makes it extremely easy to find point of origin for the firing.
Then just about everything else that the Russians showed above, imagery and radar specifically.
To prove precisely where the shot was taken should be a walk in the park for US Intel, to prove who did it is pretty easy but not certain.
//American foreign policy is all smoke and mirrors, and double-crossing our allies. We are assholes.
TOO SMART FOR THEIR OWN GOOD! But it's the hubries and lies that will defeat the might empire....pride comes before the fall!!
International Business Times
Malaysia Airlines MH17: Russia Says Ukrainian Aircraft Flew Within 5km of Plane Before it Crashed
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/malaysia-airlines-mh17-russia-says-ukrainian-ai...
The problem with this story, and the story where Putin's plane was at the same point and echelon as MH17 (meaning they crossed paths several hundred miles away from where MH17 crashed), is that they don't mean anything.
And yet they are CALCULATED to present a false impression without actually stating their implication.
The CALCULATED impression from this story is that the Ukrainian Aircraft fired on MH17. But no one has directly said that because there is no evidence that that was so. And there is evidence it would not be so... The aircraft broke up in the air. That would tend to implicate a fuselage hit guided by radar.
While aircraft have radar guided missiles, more common is for them to be heat guided. In that case it would probably have struck the airliner's engine, and disintegrated the wings in the air. In fact the wings made it to the ground in recognizable form. That counter-indicates an aircraft-fired heat guided missile.
But could MH17 have been shot down by a Ukrainian fighter? Yes.
But it could also have been hit by a meteorite. We don't list meteorite as a possibility because, while possible, it doesn't really fit what we know. We don't have any reason to think it actually was a meteorite. We don't have any reason to think it actually was a West Ukrainian plane.
The 'Putin's Plane' story is calculated to give the impression that the West Ukrainians may have shot down the plane accidentally, believing it to be Putin's plane.
EXCEPT Putin's course was perpendicular to MH17's course. Their paths simply crossed several hundred miles away. Putin's plane never came within 1000 kilometers of where MH17 was shot down.
There is no physically possible way for the two flights to be confused by an Air Defense System.
But...then why say these things??????
I don't think the Russians did this.
But stories that are CALCULATED TO MISLEAD - like these - make me wonder. Lying to me is not a way to earn my trust.
If it were Hamlet I'd say, "Methinks the Lady (mother Russia) doth protest too much'.
I don't think Russia did this.
But if they keep issuing lies like this, I may come to reconsider.
Eventually I may be forced to consider why they would lie, when the apparent truth is damning enough.
Gertrude. Why seems it so particular with thee?
Hamlet. "Seems," madam? Nay, it is; I know not "seems."
The Western accusations of Russia's guilt and their immediate acceptance of Ukrainiane's account of events and their innocence seemed both deceitful and false to me.
How seemed it it to you.
Obviously, from this Russian military 'fact dump' today, the Russians were giving the West enough time and rope to hang themselves.
The Russian story appears to be that the West Ukrainians INTENTIONALLY fired on a civilian aircraft for political purposes. And given that West Ukraine has trained personnel, equipment, and the proper civil aviation support - IT ALMOST CERTAINLY WOULD BE INTENTIONAL.
ON THE OTHER HAND.
The East Ukrainians have (had) at least one TELAR. There is no indication that the East Ukrainians would have done it on purpose, but a lot of indication they may have done it on accident.
SO,
What do YOU think?
Is it more likely someone fired on it intentionally, or by accident?
My gut says:
Never suspect malice when stupidity is also a candidate.
Stupidity is just as destructive as malice but far more common.
Stupidity is a cover for malice.
If the US had a history of acting with integrity, we would not be asking these kinds of questions. If, by some longshot chance, the US really is innocent in this one and just jumping the gun to win a propaganda war because they know they are innocent, they have done enough to deserve the trouble, hassles, accusations, and heckling they are getting.
At the moment I vote outright malice, but understand all the evidence is not in.
CIA did it (or what the fuck, rogue NSA??) and it is possible that OBAMA DOES NOT EVEN FUCKING KNOW. Someone may have felt like they needed to do something... know what I'm saying?
hundreds of pages and thousands of views, i don't get it.
let's see, a plane flew into a theatre of war and got blown out of the sky.
i don't see what' so complicated about that
You miss the point. The plane wasn't suppose to be there: it was diverted from its main path.
One small problem the twitter post about the downing of a military transport that was deleted once they figured out it was a passenger jet.
https://au.news.yahoo.com/world/a/24489586/rebel-site-suggests-insurgent...
Well, we need more evidence than somebody allegedly saying something on social media. Everytime I point out a hole in this or that which the MSM says is gospel, some one always asks if I read that on some blog. But now the MSM is saying that because some blog said so, it must be the truth.
neocons really must have barry by the balls.
Not by the balls if you please
They are needed by Michael, Reggie, amongst others
The problem with all these US-Ukraine conspiracy theories is that there's no motive. President Obama clearly doesn't want to be involved in this conflict. His pinprick sanctions are designed to give himself political cover without actually accomplishing anything. He really has no options on the ground in Ukraine except foreign aid and it doesn't look like Congress is inclined to give him any no matter what Russia or the rebels do short of invading Germany. Shooting down a plane puts pressure on the president that he clearly, transparently, desperately does not want placed on him.
Occam's Razor, Russia gave sophisticated weapons to the inexperienced rebels, which it is clearly supporting with material and personnel, and they accidentally shot down a civilian plane.
Denying the Russians 2 Mistral carriers from the French. Back burnering Germany's complaint about US spying.
What's 300 innocent lives to Washington? How many were sacrificed to 'get' Saddam?
Actually the Kiev regime and the US are the only ones with a motive, ie to frame Russia and they had their frame kit ready to roll out before the plane hit the ground.
I have yet to hear anyone suggest a motive for Russia downing the plane. The best O'Bummer and his trolls can come up with is it was done by the separatists. But if it was the separatists, no one has suggested they deliberately set out to shoot down a Malaysian jet.
So a downing by the separatists would be an accident, what the US calls "collateral damage", so OK according to the US when it does it somewhere most weeks. How many collateral deaths has Israel caused in the last week with no US outrage?
If, however, it was done by the Kiev regime it would be outright mass murder, since the Kiev regime was directing the Malaysian plane in its airspace and knew its identity.
Interesting observation from an older movie. Skip to around 7:20 and notice the city hit. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3bZoFzDkH4g
As I predicted:
Everybody has """"""""irrifutable"""""""""""" proof.
Conclusion: Propaganda War.
Move on. Nothing new here.
Achmans razor goes for the simpliest solution. Pro russian rebel advisors were outside of russian command and control and made a mistake in firing a missile. Several military planes and helicopters had been shot down in the preceeding weeks. This was a covert military mistake by russian advisors, or half trained rebels.... Neither Russia, Ukraine, or US would intentionally shoot a commercial airliner, but a half trained, half controlled missle launcher partially manned by rebels could get reckless. THat is most likely.
Poroshenko is admitting that groups of self-organized pro-Ukraine forces are attacking Donetsk even today, when the effort should be to lessen hostilities during the recovery and investigation. Why can't a rogue Ukraine force be the ones that fired intentionally.
A rogue Ukranian force has no pro-Russian aircraft to shoot at because the rebels have no airforce....I vote for the above Achmans Razor.
If there are no pro-Russia planes, then you should ask the Ukraine government why they moved three batteries of BUKs into rebel territory the morning of the crash... Russian satellite images show them there.
Russia has denied that it gave the rebs any missiles or other arms. So right now its a he said - she said. Seems like the accuser has the burden of proof. Show us what you're working with there Mr. President.
The central fact that everyone agrees on is that MA17 was shot down over rebel territory.
Don't you mean crashed in rebel territory...
Do you know for a fact where the explosion, or A2A , or S2A missle actually struck the plane?
It is amazing how quickly people agree that the kool-aid tastes great.
Yeah - and Nicole Simpson was done in on her own property..
so, you see, it couldn't have been OJ - who lived at least 10 miles away.
Right?
I would not bet on it... bombings of apartment buildings in Moscow in 1999 to start second Chechen war, 9/11 in US, MH370 dissapearance...
Both US or Russian governments are capable of worse things than shooting down commercial plane with no US born or Canadian born citizens on board. There are as a matter of fact no Russian or Ukranian citizens on MH17.
It is either conspiracy theory or drunken cozzak asked "what does this button do?..."
If the Ukrainians had a jet flying near MH-17, then why would they fire a SAM at it and risk hitting their own jet?
For all one knows it may have been a missile fired by the Ukranian fighter aircraft itself.
Thats why one must wait for the full real investigation
Radar shows the Ukrainian jets breaking off three minutes BEFORE the crash, and video shows that they released chaff which is shown falling to earth. The jets were in no danger.
So the US must have been pretty brainless in training fighter jet pilots to fly in formations of 4 or more while carrying missiles.
I guess from now on all countries should only fly 1 fighter jet at a time to avoid friendly fire casualties.
Thank you so much for the insight. You are such a genius.
When will you be graduating from kindergarten? I'd like to send you some flowers.
"What happens if he fires one?"
"Then we'll fire one"
"FIRING ONE!"
The Bedford Incident for real except it was a civilian aircraft that didn't belong there.
The only thing that was verified was that the target was locked on.
Putin appears to be handing over a long rope to Obama to hang himself. He appears to be paying his cards close to his chest.
Porko will likely end up as a sausage.
So maybe, the powers that be, will use it as an opportunity , to make Obam's future exit as profitable as it can be.
This is great!
In 1962, The USSR was placing missiles in Cuba. The US had photo recon proof.
At the UN, the Russians denied any foul play. Until Adlai Stevenson brought out giant photos of the missiles being set up.
The Russians were skunked.
***********************
Now, the role is reversed! This time, Russia has the photos and data it can present at the UN.
The onus is on the USG, because the cat is out of the bag with the revelation of a US spy satellite over the same area.
Will it be the USG caught red-handed lying its ass off this time instead of the 1962 Soviets?
If the USG is lying to US citizens and to the world, it Must be Exposed!
It seems increasingly, day by day, the current administration needs to be in Leavenworth, not infesting PA Ave!
What will happen.......NOTHING.........same as it ever was.
The lying on the part of you Russians is just over the top now.
Do you morons know how stupid you all look? Apparently not.
Quit this now! Stop trying to say the sky is green. Apologize and move on, Putin. That is the best advice I can give you and your fan base here on ZH..
Apologize and move on, Putin. That is the best advice I can give you and your fan base here on ZH..
Of course "novictim".
You are a Perpetrator for ....
novictim is just another Banderatard apologist. His stunted mentality cannot discern between right and wrong, only his side and the other side.
Full video: September 11 - The New Pearl Harbor:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DOnAn_PX6M
This is the best 9/11 documentary by far. There are a couple of things left out such as the thermite found in the dust around the city and the memorial services, but all in all at 4 1/2 hours it's pretty comprehensive.
They'll never get rid of 9/11.
There's no way back. There's no way out.
That Spanish dude in the Kiev Air traffic Control tower that calls himself Carlos on Twitter, well he used to call himself José Carlos in the same Twitter account until about 4 months ago when he dropped the José part and just used the Carlos name.
And you are NSA to get details like that? What color are my undershorts today?
I like the challenge of finding hard to find information, which is sometimes useful.
Let him be known as Carlos Danger from here.....
Not sure why you use Google to translate...
If he didn't , you might have complained out his grammer? Troll or Idiot.......you chose. It's a cool night, better take an extra flag to wrap around yourself to keep warm.
Yandex looks like a good translator. Hasn't heard of it before.
It's easy to summarize the presentation using the pics on the Russian military website (click on video camera to see more pics). There's a lot more but these are the main points. Mainly the Russians are asking questions of the US and Ukraine, not making accusations (other than point (4) below, and that Poroshenko claimed there was no Ukranian fighter in the area, which is false).
Yandex translation of transcript
1) This pic shows the flight path of the 777 in brown and it's normal flight corrider in light blue. It was attempting to get back in the flight corrider before it lost altitude (was shot down).
2) This pic shows the number of Ukranian BUK radar stations below the area of the crash. One can see that the number peaked July 17 at 9 stations. The plane crashed July 17th of course.
3) This pic shows the three (3) commercial airliners and flight paths in the area from 5:10PM to 5:30PM on the day of the crash, as well as the Ukranian fighter plane (presumably SU-25). The reason the line is shorter for the SU-25 is that it was out of radar range until it reached a sufficiently high altitude.
4) This pic is used to debunk a Ukranian video claim that BUKs were transferred from Eastern Ukraine to Russia.
Also: "Ladies and Gentlemen, we also have some questions to our US partners.According to the statement of the US representatives they have some pictures from the space supporting that missile launching was made by the militants. But nobody has seen these pictures.
According to our dates from 17:06 till 17:21 Moscow time on the July 17 over the South-Eastern territory of Ukraine flew US space satellite. This is a special device of the experimental space system designed to detect and track various missiles launches. If the US party has photos made by the satellite, please let us ask them to show the world's community for further investigation. Is it coincidence or not? However the time of the Malaysian Boeing-777 accident and the time of the observation done by the satellite over the Ukrainian territory are the same."
So in pic number 3, which lists plane MH17 as No.364 in red, is the diagram comment indicating that it was last on radar at 17:17 hours or crashed at 17:17 hours, or just recorded by radar at 17:17 hours?
I have no easy way to translate from Russian to English on image files, but the transcript says the plane started to lose speed at 17:20. My guess is that 17:17 isn't a time but a flight path?
Thanks. The yandex translation that you gave (which I have now read) gives a pretty good translation. As you say, it seems the plane started to lose speed at 17:20 hours and by 17:21 had noticeably lost a lot of speed and looked to be about to crash.
Yes, the 17:17 time could have been chosen so that the planes wouldn't be cluttered on the image. I don't think 17:17 is a flight path since the Copenhagen flight is also listed as 17:17. The other flight is listed as 17:24.
Still, there are a whole lot of 17s flying about in this event, which gives pause for thought.
Yes it's probably a time. That's what I initially thought but then I got confused because the plane showing 16.10 is pointed in the wrong direction for it to be a time on the flight path. (It's probably pointed in the "wrong" direction because the 778 labeled 16.10 was not part of the audio presentation).
Ukrainian Interior Minister is the guy that found the missing AA missile truck he claimed was going back to russia, shown 10000 times on MSM in 72 hrs. ( whoops ), turns out billboard in background of video, is east of, post traveled path from crash site and ukie government controlled area. WTF WTF
Compelling and damning evidence by the Russians
What a week!
First, every amateurish video and so called "intercepted telephone conversations between rebels" were debunked. Secondly, Russia is presenting to the world, not only the real proof of what happened, but also a proof that the American government new exactly what was happening, and lied about it on the scale unseen since 9/11. The image of the CIA satellite over this area is very telling.
The funny thing, I also cannot imagine any self-respecting politician to be engaging in any form of meaningful exchanges with the Ukrainian authorities, that were caught red handed with fabricated evidence and pushing the world into a war that could destroy our entire planet. This can only be qualified as a crime against humanity.
Our gov looks like such complete clowns. The Russians just stole the mantle of the "rational west", publically, while our intellectually and morally corrupt Western leadership struggled to either make or identify youtube videos with appropriate timestamps.
So it only took the Russians 4 days to debunk the Kiev/Western lies. When we were dealing with Iraq, the lies weren't debunked until after the war. Russia isn't as powerful as the "West" in combination, but is much too technologically advanced, and strong enough to successfully counter us. We should quit while we're behind.
Afaik Russia (and Germany) doubted the WMD-story of Iraq the whole time, but back then nobody took them serious enough back then.
And we shouldn't forget that the Irak war wasn't backed by UN-council.
It wasn't the time to derail an American war effort. Russia was recovering from a really bad economy and financial meltdown. Russia was put on ice by the IMF imo and couldn't afford to take a shit on the US intelligence. Times have changed. Russia is a solid economic partner of China and Europe now.
of course western media owned by the oligarchs that own US govt
"Scary stuff. The German government confirms that the secondary surveillance system was jammed. At the same time NATO held drills on electronic warfare in conjunction with air defense units. "
What if Russia and China simply negates computer chips just like the black sea deal and nothing works when their bluff is called? Do they come and blow away the west after this? Something to think about. What if nobody's shit works but theirs?
Spiegel is reporting US government is getting impatient with lack of Europe's enthusiasm for (more) sanctions against Putin. They're pushing hard and who knows what is on the table. What leverage does the US have left in Europe?
"What leverage does the US have left in Europe?"
Not a lot, except in Marionette HQ: Westminster.
If this EU x US friction over Russia continues, I anticipate a terrorist attack to occur somewhere in the EU, possibly Germany, which will put pressure on the EU & Germany to fall into line with Washington's demands.
I hope Germany have considered this.
Britain has no status in the world except as a US Island. It has no industry, its investment banks are foreign owned. Its London property depends on rich oligarchs. It is simply a shit-stirrer for the US and since Blair they have simply signed up to US payroll.
Britain has no sovereign identity inside or outside the EU - it is like Portugal with 3 nuclear submarines
Most likely scenario now is that Ukraine planned and executed the shooting down of MH17. Next Question is how Much did the US and POTUS know before it happened and were US security/military Peronnel Involved in the planning.
Most likely scenario now is that Ukraine planned and executed the shooting down of MH17
Ukraine doesnt plan
Planning is done by the US and also executed by it.
Ukraine territory is American territory with their Porky in charge
Do I understand it correct that AWACS didn't work and the US-sattelite didn't record anything? And so the west goes on with the Kerry-insuniations funded by nothing whereas the other side has pictures and lots of unanswered questions so far?
Steroids, if you want to run into where I stay do it, until then you suck donkey sweaty balls. You got 2 guys who shoot like me, maybe if that.
Pump the mind what whatever bs that works, but most Americans with 2 hands will send em to " lights out" in just one guy. Enough fuss a heavy number of replacements will occur.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKqEGZB9avo&sns=em
You're only as good as we allow
You. Fuck a banker
The real fear is the that the US/UK/EU tampered with the orange black boxes in London or Amsterdam and no data was recorded. The separatists then get blamed for destroying evidence.
It's just a fear, mind you, but not out of the pervue of the CIA's meisterspys.
The fact that the boxes are being handed over to the Malaysians as opposed to the US is speaking volumes imo. Nobody trusts the US. That's more and more apparent.
Of course they're not going to hand the bb over to the us or ukraine.
But my paranoia is that the bb were crippled before the plane left Amsterdam.
I have to go now and take a valium.
I guess that must be a possibility although unlikely in my view. There would need to have been a conspiracy to shoot down MH17 long before it even boarded passengers and left Amsterdam. That would make the perps guilty of pre-planned mass murder.
i'm not as worried that this is the case. i don't think they could take the chance that they might not be able to control the investigation, which denies them the ability to doctor evidence. they might end up getting caught with their fingerprints all over it. it of course would go largely unnoticed in the west, but would not be "actionable" in terms of causus belli.
Israeli Propaganda in India over Gaza Conflict
http://planes.findthebest.com/q/211/7727/How-high-can-the-Sukhoi-Su-25-J...
The world has not learned from 9/11 and the massive propaganda effort to justify the 'war on terror'.
It turned out to be a total fabrication, and an excuse to remove domestic rights liberties in countries around the world, engage in big expensive wars and, spend trillions with defense companies.
The Media is in full propaganda mode, no detail or information that exists that disproves allegations is shown in any of the MSM.
Exactly as the massive propaganda effort of the MSM after 9/11. And how terribly wrong that was, how many hudreds of thousands of lives lost for US geopolitical games, and they total mess left behind now, though US defense companies made many billions of dollars. Thousands of US soldiers die for no reason except to enrich defense companies and the geopolitical dreams of a handful of the oligarchs.
The current Propaganda agenda being pushed by the US Admin is to demonise and weaken Russia and to justify increased defense spending yet again. Without an expensive enemy the US is unable to exist, so it needs to continually create them wherever they can.
The case against Russia and seperatist Ukrainian-Russians seems to be revealed now as a total fabrication by the Ukraine, and planned.
But none of the evidence the contradicts the Ukraine-USA is appearing in the MSM. This is of course the MSM are owned by the very same powers behind US politicians.
The problem the US has now is during its war on terror it lost a lot of credibility with their allies, and its continuing with the same tactics it exhibited then is not being accepted by a number of European countries. Added that a good part of Europe is dependant on Russia for some energy, and a low cost energy, not to mention trade.
With the current long standing economic and debt crisis the last thing Germany and the like want is isolating and important supplier and customer, and especially miss out on the opportunities offered by the BRICS development.
The US is asking Europeane countries to shoot themsleves in the foot to aid US geopolitical game.
Not even US......more a game played by the son of a Polish Aristocrat = Brzezinski plus Descendants of Russian Jews who re-polarised themselves from 1960s Trots to 1990s Neo-Fascists to take control of US Foreign Policy
It can for short periods.
It looks like, regardless of the facts, that the Russians are losing the PR fight, badly. Especially if what they have said to date is all they have (which it can't be) and that has been virtually ignored, by many governments and MSN. Maybe they belive that the MSM does not matter and as long as TPTB know what has happened that is all that matters. Maybe, but it is very frustrating for the rest of us. Another good Saker thread
http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.ca/2014/07/the-russian-military-finally-sp...
All around the world a large number of politians are going to have to eat humble pie if they now accept the US is wrong. Is this likely to happen?
If the data in the BB shows only a catastrophic failure and the voice recorder does not mention a missile or doesn't differentiate between an air to air or ground sourced missile, isn't the US just going to ignore the Russians demands for for what it knows?
This is highly likely to accelerate the rift between the BRICS+ (who will believe the Russians) and the US believers. It will also make the Russians very, very angry.
Very pleased to note that Mercedes are scheduled to make a decision in the next few days to put a new car assembly plant in Russia in the next few days (BMW and Audi are already there).
Daimler has no option but to build in Russia - it is the cheapest place for steel and energy and they are one of Merkel's big sponsors
Could this be the motive - murdering innocent civilians as an excuse to put missiles on Russians boarders?
01:09 GMT:US President Barack Obama and Polish President Bronislaw Komorowski have discussed on the phone the need for increased defense spending in Europe and for transatlantic unity after the MH17 crash, the White House said, as cited by Reuters.
The two leaders also agreed on “the importance of alliance-wide and credible contributions to NATO's reassurance efforts in Central and Eastern Europe.”
Obama and Komorowski “stressed the need for Transatlantic solidarity in responding to the tragic shooting down of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 and Russia's efforts to destabilize Ukraine”.
http://rt.com/news/173628-malaysian-plane-crash-ukraine/
Nothing surprises me with Poland. It's Europe's No.2 sycophantic puppet to Washington. Britain being No.1.
Look at Sikorski its FM - fancies himself as another Colonel Beck. Gets British Citizenship to revoke it in favour of Polish, marries US journ Applebaum - and was in Bullingdon Club (Skull & Crossbones anyone) at Oxford with Cameron, Osborne, Boris Johnson.......
Colonel Beck wanted to create Polish "Empire" in Central Europe after 1935 but noone trusted him - he even tricked Chamberlain into a Guarantee in March 1939 to give him leverage against Berlin but they called his bluff
"Russian women make the best wives", that is what the ad banner says at the time of this post.
Irony, thy name is Zero Hedge.
Of course a major interest of the US since 1997 is have military and missile bases on Russian borders. Ukraine has been a US goal for a long time in that respect.
However - any attempt by the US to put missile bases on th Russian borders WILL mean war...aka Cuba crisis.
Except in the next war the US mainland distance from the main theatre will not protect it at all. Modern warfare technology means everybody is close together. The US mainland would suffer as much damage as Europeane and Russian mainland.
And how quickly would a conflict escalate to nuclear - since each party would be on edge and wouldn't want to be the last to fire them off. One Russian nuclear sub carries 14,000 kiloton of nuclear explosions in around 160 warheads with a long range. And that is one submarine. i.e. nobody gets off free in any major war.
The US thinks it can propogate wars because it doesn't come onto to their mainland, so if it loses or creates a huge mess, no big deal at home. However a Cuban missile crisis type conflict starting in Ukraine/Poland...would escalate quickly.....NYC, Washington, Seattle etc.... dont think they would miss out on major destruction from conventional bombs, and obliteration if one decides it has to go nuclear.
I think the Oligarchs running the US government always assume they are safe no matter what outcome, and can benefit before, during and after.....so entering into wars as they often do is not a matter of humanity for them, but a matter of maximum benefit.
Cuba was directly linked to US rockets in Turkey which Kennedy removed afterwards.......
Where are the NSA intercepts? Don't they have just everything?
of course, except that information is like a hand of cards. if you tell all the rest of the players what cards you have, you weaken your hand and playing position. then you are more likely to lose the game.
us doesn't say anything for this reason. you bet they have all the information. it doesn't benefit their strategy to reveal it in this situation is all.
https://news.vice.com/article/a-bomb-seemingly-misses-its-mark-in-ukrain...
Well within the capabilities of a SU-25 ? A ground-attack aircraft yet it failed to locate and destroy the BUK battery ? Why ?
The Ukraine SU-25s were guiding MH17 into the kill zone that could have been their only function, that and reporting back to base that the 'job' was done.
Else where is the eyewitness accounts of the Su-25s that they saw it happen... The Spainish airtraffice controller working in the Ukraine said their were two Ukraine fighters following MH17 .. (he has since disappeared..lo) Well we know there was at least one..thus this guy did exist...and now gone somewhere safer maybe.
Well, Xi, our Bricks Bank is a success!
(pops cork, pours drinks)
Yes, Vlad, we owe it all to Bath House Barry
(They tilt their glasses towards a photo of Backdoor Barry in a Backdoor pose)
Who is the guy behind him, Vlad?
I think it is was a senator named Graham, another deviant member of their old government.
(Both laugh)
I just got some new gold bars and coins, Vlad. Have a look?
Sure.
Western MSM pretty much ignoring this or Dismissing it as propaganda. Russia needs to bring this presentation to the UN in order to get support from other countries and to demand their 10 questions get answered.
http://www.npr.org/assets/news/2014/07/Evidence-of-Russian-Firing-into-Ukraine.pdf
Zerohedge: the fox of financial news
http://www.npr.org/assets/news/2014/07/Evidence-of-Russian-Firing-into-Ukraine.pdf
Zerohedge: the fox of financial news