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Ukraine Possessed the Type of Missile System Which Shot Down Malaysian Airlines Flight MH-17
Ron Paul writes:
While western media outlets rush to repeat government propaganda on the [plane crash in Ukraine], there are a few things they will not report.
***
The media has reported that the plane must have been shot down by Russian forces or Russian-backed separatists, because the missile that reportedly brought down the plane was Russian made. But they will not report that the Ukrainian government also uses the exact same Russian-made weapons.
He's right ...
The American government and media are loudly proclaiming that it must have been the Russian loyalists within Ukraine who shot down the plane because they possessed the type of missile used in the attack: SA-11 missiles fired from a Buk missile system.
Of course, the Ukrainians possess them as well.
As the Council on Foreign Relations notes:
All three regional actors—Russia, pro-Russian rebels of the “Donetsk People’s Republic,” and the Ukrainian government—had access or potential access to this weapons platform.
Reuters points out:
As Russia and Ukraine trade blame over the apparent shooting down of a Malaysian airliner, they appear to agree on one thing: the type of Soviet-era missile that brought it down.
But if an SA-11 Buk missile, known as “Gadfly” in NATO, struck the aircraft and killed all 298 on board, that won’t solve the mystery of who did it: Russia, Ukraine and Russian-speaking rebels have all claimed the missile in their arsenals.
Former Associated Press and Newsweek reporter Robert Parry explains:
Ukraine, after all, was part of the Soviet Union until 1991 and has continued to use mostly Russian military equipment.
For example, here’s a Ukrainian state company BOASTING about their Buk systems and SA-11s … complete with pictures:
(Click here and here to see big, clear images.)
The Ukrainian military also admits – after denying it for 8 days – that it accidentally shot down a Russian airliner in 2001, killing all 78 passengers, using a different missile system.
But – say American talking heads – it came from “rebel-controlled territory”.
Maybe … but last time we heard that kind of claim, it turned out to be totally false.
»
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Well the point of this article is kinda too obvious to bother with. Ukraine uses Russian weapons. Duh. Only the stunning stupidity of the sheople enables falling for this sort of brassnecked but paperthin deception.
What should be both obvious and crucially significant but clearly is not to most supposedly interested commentators is the ridiculous in-your-face numerology of the event. Just Google MH17 and numerology. Flight 17 on the 17th of the 7th month of 2014 is just the most blatant synch of 17s and 7s. Then see it died exactly 17 years after it's maiden flight! On the 17th of the 7th month of 1997! Some intelligence is making this happen. It renders speculative crap ideas regarding a Putin plane being "the real target" as most unlikely. That that intelligence may well by linked with the Oligarchy we call the Elite (the Western establishment globalist scum) should be bloody obvious for many reasons, not least of which are the convenience of this atrocity for the spinmeisters (and inconvenience for the rebels or Putin) and the ridiculously bizarre speech cum numerology lecture, all about 7s and 2014, given just before this event by no less a Illuminati luminary as Christine Lagarde, chief of the robber baron uber-bureaucracy of the IMF.
... most probably, what we will find finally out is that the regular Ukranian army simply tried to take down a russian military SU25 flying overe the region, but accidentlaly shot down the MH17 by mistake ... in fact, it would be a little bit hard for Ukraine to admit such a misshap fact to its brand new EU partners ...
And then there's the curiouser and curiouser story of Carlos, the Spanish air traffic controller working at Kiev's tower, who was following MH17 in real time. For some Carlos is legit - not a cipher; for others, he's never even worked in Ukraine. Anyway he tweeted like mad. His account - not accidentally - has been shut down, and he has disappeared; his friends are now desperately looking for him. I managed to read all his tweets in Spanish when the account was still online - and now copies and an English translation are available.
These are some of his crucial tweets:
"The B777 was escorted by 2 Ukrainian fighter jets minutes before disappearing from radar (5.48 pm)"
"If the Kiev authorities want to admit the truth 2 fighter jets were flying very close a few minutes before the incident but did not shoot down the airliner (5.54)"
"As soon as the Malaysia Airlines B777 disappeared the Kiev military authority informed us of the shooting down. How did they know? (6.00)"
"Everything has been recorded on radar. For those that don't believe it, it was taken down by Kiev; we know that here (in traffic control) and the military air traffic control know it too (7.14)"
"The Ministry of the Interior did know that there were fighter aircraft in the area, but the Ministry of Defense didn't. (7.15)"
"The military confirm that it was Ukraine, but it is not known where the order came from. (7.31)"
Assuming Carlos is legit, the assessment makes sense. The Ukrainian military are divided between Chocolate king President Petro Poroshenko - who would like a d?tente with Russia essentially to advance his shady business interests - and Saint Yulia Timoshenko, who's on the record advocating genocide of ethnic Russians in Eastern Ukraine. US neo-cons and US "military advisers" on the ground are proverbially hedging their bets, supporting both the Poroshenko and Timoshenko factions.
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Central_Asia/CEN-01-190714.html
OK- For The Sake of Trolls, lets say for one moment Putin shot down the plane.
HOW did the Russians, or the separatists, get the Kiev air traffic controllers to swing MH-17 north by more than 100 kilometers? No plane had done that in weeks/ months.
Riddle me that.
I do NOT think that Putin had anything to do whatsoever with the shootdown I DO think the rebels did shoot the plane down. Now speculation is frankly all one can do at this point but the cui bono is CLEARLY not with Putin, he is TOO SMART TOO SAVVY a fellow to do anything that STUPID but the rebels YES.
http://voiceofrussia.com/news/2014_06_29/Donetsk-militia-takes-control-o...
DPR militia takes control of Ukrainian anti-air installation
Voice of Russia, Jun 29 2014
The self-defense forces of DPR seized control of a Ukrainian anti-air military installation, RIA Novosti reports. “The forces of DPR assumed control of A-1402 military base,” the militia’s representative said. According to him, it is an anti-aircraft missile forces facility equipped with Buk mobile surface-to-air missile systems. During the last several days the militia took control of two internal security troops’ installations in eastern Ukraine.
http://voicesevas.ru/news/yugo-vostok/2776-voyna-na-yugo-vostoke-onlayn-...
On June 14 the rebels used a buk to destroy a Ukrainian forces plane
21-48, Today the militia for the destruction of the plane an-26 of the enemy at height more than 6000 meters was used ADMS “KM” (better known as “Buck”). A few weeks ago it was reported about the seizure of the host of these systems. Now they are refurbished, complete with crews and put into operation.
21-48, The Cyrillic didn't show up properly
- Source in original Russian
Within 24 hours from the tragic MH-17 flight, US officials rushed to align with the Ukrainian government, based on "evidence" that came out remarkably fast. While in other cases, the Western hypocrites "recommend sangfroid" and suggest to every direction not to rush to make conclusions, this is a case where they completely violate their own "calm down" policy as advice to others.
http://failedevolution.blogspot.gr/2014/07/desperate-to-find-pretext.html
Discuss the motives George.
What reason do separists have for shooting down civilian plane - Id say litle or none.
What reason does kiev have for shooting down plane and blame it on separitists - much more likely to justify increased western involvement.
Like either separatists shot it down by accident or kiev doing a false flag. I lean to the latter. Partly because this administration has screwed up everything its touched in world affairs and the guy seems to be a genuine dirt-bag.
I'm an active duty F-16 pilot. I truly don't understand all the sympathy toward Putin and Russia on this site. Stick to the economy and business please. You obviously know NOTHING about these weapons systems, the operation of such, and the capabilities of them and who can operate them. It was RUSSIA or Russiian "trained" goons who fired this missile and killed those innocents. Knock off the foolish bullshit please.
so you're going to say right now with your F-16 pilot skill that Ukranians don't have this missile system and none of them were at any time trained by Russians. Ever.
Ok, there.
The "trained" goons are in Ukraine government, Eastern Ukraine, and Russia. There are a LOT of ex-Soviet military in the area, working for different agendas. Any soldier over 40 in Ukraine was probably trained by USSR, on Soviet equipment. Picking a Russian "villain" this early in the game is foolish at best and mendacious at least.
It is not so much ZH-ers are pro-Putin as we are anti-hypocrisy.
The "sympathy" towards Putin is due to impulse by Americans to apply duality to every current event. There just HAS to be a good guy and a bad guy, with no gray area.
It wouldn't be like this, but your employers insist on war-profiteering and destroying countries in the name of "freedom" and "democracy". Many on this site are disillusioned by the realization that our government and armed forces have completely turned away from their interests. So they lash out the only way they know how, but picking "another team".
It's pretty obvious you are chugging away at the red, white and blue kool-aid, so I won't bother contesting your asinine conclusion that "It was RUSSIA". You don't know jack shit, F-16 pilot or otherwise.
One more thing, Putin used to be KGB, and I seriously doubt that tiger lost his stripes. He may have a little less blood on his hands than his western counterparts, but he's no leader to look up to either. There are no "good guys" involved in this. Just differing degrees of thuggery.
Like I have said before, we will never know who shot the missile, as there are too many liars involved, but "Cookies" Nuland, the DC US and their Israeli handlers are to blame.
Well, we do know one thing. For a very long time now the U.S. government and the MSM have done nothing but lie to us about absolutely everything.
You have it backwards. It is not the Americans who control the Israelis; but for now, control remains firmly in place.
the MSM is saying MH17 was at 30000 feet, that hardly seems like low to medium altitude.
Russia Has Photos Of Ukraine Deployment Of BUK Missile System In East
thanks for the numbers, if the BUK is effective to 72000 feet, what in the hell is anything doing flying over this war zone.
Bwhahahahahaha. "The Ukrainians did it."
Give me a break. This is simply believing one total lie as superior to another lie..."and that's the way the world works." Destroy's the credibility of the Hedge...an "American Pravda."
Why not just come like Putin and imply "wiping the Dutch off the map is the goal of every Russian"?
A good question can be raised as to why any civilian aircraft were flying over Ukraine...let alone Russia...but this "investigation" is an offense to the world and. Putin knows it.
It was Aliens.
Libert-Aliens.
Thank goodness we have you to sort it all out for us, and Putin. What more could we want?
Kiev Behind Malaysian Flight Shoot Down? Who Else Would Do The CIA's Bidding?
"If you have the facts, pound on the facts. If you have the law, pound on the law. If you don't have either, pound on the table."
What facts do they have that Russia or Separatists fired the missile at MH370? What facts do they have that Putin and/or the Separatists are illogical? What law gives Obama or any other instant-response-judge the power to determine the facts and guilt? The media is pounding the table with ad hominem attacks on Putin and the Separatists, because they have no facts. They demand you emote as they direct.
Obama's speech just now simply confirmed that the Ukrainian military did it.
I would also like to have Putin say, sure, I'll get my separatists under control just as soon as you get your Israelis under control...
Ummm...
Not that I don't enjoy a little batshit crazy now and then but even a second year med student can tell if a body has been frozen then thawed by the drying effects of sublimation or the water in a cell transferring from a frozen state to a vapor without passing through a liquid phase.
Ya know, sciencey shit.
This is why frozen people never taste quite as good as fresh.
Same with oranges.
But, but, the experts of President Putin are declaring in Russia that Sa-11 cannot, CANNOT down an airplane flying at 10.000 meters. And the airplane was anyway full of already dead people and destroyed in the warzone to put the blame on President Putin. And, by the way, the President Putin plane was the real target of the SA-11 rocket attack. And the perpetrators of the attack were under no circumstances the russian soldiers fighting in Ukraine, but the Ukrainian army. Using SA-11. But, off course, SA-11 cannot down an airplane flying that high. So it must have been a bomb maybe. But, but, eye witnesses from insurgent controlled area swear that there were other planes near the downed one. And these planes were, mind you, Ukrainian Suhoys, off course, clearly visible and easily identifiable from ground. And these Suhoys really downed the plane. Which plane was full of already dead people. And this is the same plane that dissapeared in Asia earlier. It wasn't really missing, but stolen by United States to be used, full of already dead people, against Russia.
http://www.newrepublic.com/node/118782
And Russia is in no way to blame for this accident. There are bad people trying to use this incident against innocent Russia and this is not nice. Maybe natural gas suplies will be cut because of that. Or for any other reason. They didn't pay for the gas. Bad People! The Capitalism and Capitalist Imperialism are dead. Russia will save all its neighbours from the Capitalist Imperialism. And Russia will bring peace, cheap natural gas, quality made Kalasnikovs, very polite armed people and really free elections, with 110% majorities, in all these countries where the ethnic Russians are exploited. Or anywhere President Putin declares the existence of "nazi regimes".
By the way, Stalin was from Georgia, and there is no connection between CCCP. Others are to blame for the crimes commited by russians. Never the russians themselves. They are just victims. Russia don't invade other countries. Russia just forms "unions". Shotgun unions. And the polish plane that was destroyed a few years ago in Russia, killing most of the heads of the Polish republic, was full of already dead people. And all those journalists that were all already dead when they received bullets in the back of their heads were placed there by the western enemies. And they were spies. Saboteurs. Fighting against the heroic workers and peasants of the Sov... Russia. pfffff.
FFS...It has not even been confirmed that the plane was shot down. If it was shot down, it has yet to be established how it was shot down, whether by ground to air, air to air or psychotropic rays from some top secret Illuminati satellite.
This is like some guy being reported dead, then some jackass in the street screaming "The butler did it! The butler did it!" Noone knows if the fucker was even murdered, let alone if he retained the services of a butler and said butler was in a position to commit any crime.
I don't fucking know what happened. The shills on both sides of the Ukrainian issue need to shut the fuck up and let the investigators do their jobs. The pro-Muricah side of the argument is pissing me off more, but only because I live in a country that gets their media script force-fed to them by Washington. Fuck mainstream journalists, the soulless, fucking fuckers. Their inflammatory mindfuck propoganda is pissing me off. I know I'm supposed to jump on the "Evil Russia" bandwagon, like a good little serf, but I'm not biting. Until I get some hard facts from an independent source, TPTB can go fuck themselves.
We already know the US gov likes to make Russia the enemy. We already know that Ukraine possesses the same SAM system. We also know the region that this happened, or I should say area. It's territory held by Russian separatists. Is this the smoking gun? No. Of course not it's circumstantial. Does it appear that the separatists are the culprits? Yes. Does that mean I'm with the media/gov and want to start a war? Hell no! I'm just objective. From the start (Nov 2013), both the west and Russia have been shoveling the propaganda as fast as they can making it difficult to judge what's true and what's not. Don't contort yourself trying to side with one or the other. That's a fools errand.
The very fact that the separatist are being blamed full court press by the US government is the best evidence they didn't do it.
They forgot to call the seperatists racists though. Someone went off script.
That's not evidence. More objective critical thinking please.
Other things ignored: The fact that a fighter was shot down on the same day, which explains the BUK even being there. Then the crazy analysis of where that system was at the time MH17 was downed. Unfortunately, that BUK wasn't within range. So now they start devising crazy theories of how it must have been moved around. Meanwhile, they are also ignoring the air-to-air missile damage evidence and sticking to the BUK shootdown theory.
Apart from that right now, there is zero hard evidence of anything. But just like 9/11, the media bursts out and reports government claims as fact and parrots it until the sheep are hard wired enough to reject anything else.
The MSM are simply stenographers now. It's frustrating when people say that RT is Kremlin propaganda and fail to remember that nearly all Western states have government mouthpieces they bankroll too.
x
Nearly all of the evidence I've seen and read points to the Russian separatists as the culprits G Dub. Sometimes the conspiracy is the cover up being run by the media types after the massacre don't ya think?
Without some solid confirmation from an independent credble source, I sadly cannot believe anything the US says about any of this.
What evidence? You mean the spook "evidence", from spook satellites, conveniently passed on to USSA state media within minutes of the crash? Is that the evidence you're referring to? Case closed, I guess. If they're so god-damn good why can't they find MH370?
There is no hard evidence at this point. As for media cover-up, are you kidding ? The press whores are jumping on the no evidence/blame game.
Has 'schooling' completely destroyed peoples critical thinking capability ?
PS - education has been under attack in the US for a century. People used to be taught critical thinking skills; not now. The efforts to degrade the schools accelerated around 1965. So most of us have been subjected to this dumbed down 'schooling', including your kids teachers. - We can learn critical thinking skills on our own, however. The ancient Greeks knew this more than 2000 years ago, as did the American founders.
This is probably why Ron Paul's focus today is on his home schooling curriculum. As Thomas Jefferson said, you cannot be ignorant and also Free..
There continues to be more questions than answers. Yet if you ask most North Americans the Rebels are totally guilty. The spin and outright lies comming from the MSM are typical and truly harmful to world peace. Just like the towers free falling the physics of the shootdown makes one question the narrative that is forming. The BUK system has a 16KM range if fired on a follow shot. This does not work with the crash site and the location of Rebel territory. If it was a head on shot, the wrekage should be in Russia. The fact is the US has this all on Sattillite and could clear it up in five minutes. Why do they not?
"The fact is the US has this all on Sattillite and could clear it up in five minutes."
This is the first I've heard about this fact. Where did you get this inside information from?
another 'fact' I picked up in the media.
According to reuters (see link below)
Kerry said the United States had seen supplies moving into Ukraine from Russia in the last month, including a 150-vehicle convoy of armoured personnel carriers, tanks and rocket launchers given to the separatists.
It had also intercepted conversations about the transfer to separatists of the Russian radar-guided SA-11 missile system, which it blames for the Boeing 777's destruction.
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/07/21/uk-ukraine-crisis-airplane-idUK...
If US has all this information, that the rebels probably have surface to air capabillity, why did they not warn the airlines not to fly over this territory!!
Or was this another case that the intelligence agencies have the information that can save lives but find it not necessary to act..... think of 9-11
just one of my thoughts
As usual Paul Craig Roberts writes a thoughtful, sensible article on this topic:
http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2014/07/19/happened-malaysian-airliner-p...
Now that's some interesting stuff right there. So, possibly they were gunning for Putin and got the wrong plane. Hmmmm. I can't beleve that if the alphabet agencies were involved in this they would have missed, so, I can cross that one off. They would have know precisely which plane was Vlad's.
He always drags a pile of rationality to any discussion he enjoins.
The jury is still out as far as I'm concerned but the faked Russian video is some pretty damning evidence against the Kiev regime or/and it's supporters.
Qui bono?
IMO there's an even more important question to ponder.
Let's say, for the sake of argument, it's proven that a Russian soldier shot the plane down by mistake. Such accidents have happened in the past. Does it make Any sense to ratchet up the tension to a level that could trigger World War 3 ? I doubt those poor souls who were killed would want that risk to their own loved ones.
Moves like this are how wars get started.
Now if you kill 500 over 7 days it is less a tradgedy and supported by the POTUS, than 300 dying at one go.
Why don't they sue the airlines and let the lawyers handle it. Pretty sure they are not supposed to fly over war zones. Besides financial terrorism by banksters kill thousands times that number of people on an ongoing basis.
And on the subject of Australia, like other countries, their local blog discussions on the MSM and independants of course discussing this tragedy.....BUT their sole fucking source for their discussion .. US-Ukraine-UK MSM/Govt provided stories.
So you have Murdoch media informing the world...and these Blogs commenters, such as those on Andrew Bolt-MSM, Pollbludger, in Australia...are maturbating over US supplied data. Amazing the number of commenters on those blogs are as much cock suckers of the US admin as their govt and Murdoch media rags. They think they are outside the Status quo box, but they are all one of the same .. never questioning the MSM data whilst simultaneously complaing about it. Challenge their little minds and they are get all riled like babies.
HOWEVER... I think it a good idea that ZHers at least seed opinions on these blogs around the world that are outside the US/UK/Ukraine supplied propaganda. They might not like it, but the seed sown can grow, and eventually they might learn to think for themselves.
Welcome to the era of massive propaganda. Put enough shit out there and nobody can figure out what really went down. Scary times. Demons, devils and dumbasses in control.