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US Government Releases Alleged Evidence Of MH17 Missile Trajectory
The 'information war' is hotting up. On the heels of yesterday's 30-minute detailed presentation of Russia's 10 awkward questions for Ukraine (and the US), CNN reports that the US government has released a satellite trajectory map of what it says was the flight's path and the site from which the missile was shot. Of course, the epicenter of the MH17 launch is Snizhne, in pro-Russian separatist-held territory. Rebel leader Alexander Borodai responded, "we don't have the technical ability to destroy this plane. Ukrainians are not interested in the truth."
h/t @BarbaraStarrCNN
Which is right in the heart of separatist-held territory...
We await the detailed presentation of exactly what this means (or what The White House believes it to mean) ... or if it is simply a well drawn Powerpoint slide?
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Ah, so this is called "evidence" nowadays.
Around here the only "evidence" is from Russia and blogs.
CNN. Comedy News Network.
I'm a Putin and European
Took them long enough to generate data to suport the agenda. You'd think they would be more prepared for possibilities like this.
Maybe this is what inevitably happens when the media and its presstitutes start to believe in what they are selling.
Seriously, if you are going to plan and pull off a stunt of this magnitude, wouldn't there be some planning on how to sell it as well?
All of the involved parties who have DIRECT evidence are not sharing anything solid and instead are just floating turds.
I am still reserving judgement, but this looks like a complete joke.
Regards,
Cooter
I won't believe any of this until Gen. Powell gets up there and says it's so.
Thank you for reminding us of the last ludicrous power point presentation which resulted in hundreds of thousands of deaths.
Maybe Powell has some idea how the milita's BUK TELAR's (Transport Erector Launch + Acquisition Radar) on-board 9S35 Fire Dome radar can possibly acquire and track an approaching unknown target in some magical way well beyond the radar's known acquisition range of 22mi (35km), then fire off a 9K37/SA-11 missile at the maximum extent of *its* range - all in time to drop the targeted aircraft 15 km in front of the launch vehicle. Assume no reverse-engineered alien time-traveling missiles.
If Powell can come up with that, then maybe he can also explain how a semi-active radar-seeking missile with a proximity fuse can detonate on the opposite side of the aircraft in order to throw shrapnel into the left side of the fuselage.
All this from a single TELAR abandoned by the Ukranian Army during a retreat because it didn't work. They would also have to have left it with all the arming codes, fuzes, etc. for easy separatist militia use.
Contrast this with the relevant Ukranian Army SAM capability: an entire Unranian BUK batallion is depoloyed in/around Donetsk this summer. The command center has 9L13 Nemo 3-D radar and a 9S18M Kupol Tube Arm/Snow Drift search and acquisition radars. There are three fire batteries deployed around Donetsk, each with their own 9S18M Tube Arm/Snow Drift radars, and each with nine launch vehicles (six TELARs, three TELs). That gives them about 160km of full targeting and acquisition radar coverage and 27 launch vehicles (26 if you don't count the supposedly captured #212 from base A1202) around Donetsk. Russia reported that there were actually nine Ukranian Kupol radars active and operating in that area on July 17th - nearly an entire Ukranian SAM brigade. After MH-17 came down, all their Kupol radars were turned off and are still dark.
Powell is not necessary anymore because the Uncle Tom is already the White House Nig. for the you know who.
The US takes out two Malaysian Airlines, their bogglingly worry about fabricating data. Its not about the truth of their information, its about the transmission (propagating) of information.
I wonder if Putin has been waiting for the US to manufacture some evidence which will then be soundly refuted with other, more detailed and believable evidence.
That's how you play chess - wait for you opponent to trap themselves and make it costly.
yeah, except this time it's the Russians that trapped themselves in their own lies...
that's how you play poker, let the other guy show his hand first... and the Russian hand shown yesterday was fucking weak, in fact it's a goddamned joke
troll
They take out the Malay planes cause the Malay can do nothing about it. They are a weak country, scared of China the USA can use them howerver they see fit.
Plus they set up that there War Crimes Court and slandered some decent Texas folk! Can't let that go unpunished can we!
Face it folks, Russia is being judged guilty before the evidence has been vetted for one simple reason, and that is that they have publicly declared their intention to go off the dollar standard. This is the real story for any true historians out there. Everything else is a distant second.
the word weak is a "subjective" assessement - since you know what you are talking about - - - show us why it is weak?
make my day!
Post Turtle Saver name says it all, paid troll that runs defence for a guy who no one knows how he got there, does not know what to do once he was put there and people are still wondering what the fuck who ever put him there was thinking.
let the other guy show his hand first...
Ummmm ... really? Do you even know how to play poker? The play proceeds to the left around the table. After the highest bid has gone round the table with no further raises, you show your hand when it’s your turn to show your hand ... period.
What’s this: You show me yours ... No you show me yours first ? What are you, six years old?
PTS, you used to post decenot or half-decent decent stuff. What happened to you? PTSD or bad turtle day?
just tired of the lies and the fevered need on this site to protect and promote the Russian narrative at all costs... the crap that was presented by the Russian military yesterday was the last straw, fake as fuck and easily countered... no one in the aviation community took it seriously, it was just red meat for the Russian street...
look at the war going on at Wikipedia over the operational specs of the Su-25, as a single example of many... fucking lying Russians putting mud in the water with their fake info the moment the presentation was being made... amateur and pathetic...
and as for this place... every goddamned article the Tylers put up just becomes mental masturbation for the RThedge Brigade... fucking Forward Soviet the minute it goes up... you can't present people with facts that are easily corroborated by trusted sources, they just cry "conspiracy" as loud as they can to drown it out...
seriously Kirk, I've fucking had it with these clowns... hardly anyone here posts anything useful anymore... the finance info? garbage, best contrarian indicator I've ever had since 2009... the world events info? painted with the broadest red brush that RThedge can slap on it... fucking propaganda... it goes on and on and frankly the quality here has suffered greatly as a result...
I encourage everyone to read the information that's been posted on Aviation Herald here... http://avherald.com/h?article=47770f9d&opt=0
right now that is one of the few sources I trust regarding this event, mainly because the owner of the site is a very well known and trusted resource in the aviation industry when it comes to cataloging and reporting on aircraft incidents... at this point I'm treating anything else as hearsay at best and blatant lies at worst
Must.
Control.
Narrative.
(the western intelligence oligarchy is now vigorously pounding the desk with the above objective)
indeed.
but they're failing.
this isn't a serious presentation of evidence, this is a crude attempt to control the conversation using psychological pressure ("common sense" is the key word)
it is starting to look more and more like another messed up false flag
Here's part of the press conference with the White House:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQRvINebeok
The US Space Based InfraRed System (SBIRS) satellite platform has the ability to track surface to air missiles.
According to sattrackcam.com "A SBIRS platform has two sensors: one in staring mode, and one in scanning mode. The scanning mode sensor watches for heat signatures over a wide semi-global area. The staring sensor targets specific regions, and when the scanning sensor detects a signature, the staring sensor can be employed to further pinpoint and track this event.The 'heat signature' detections of the missile launch, if indeed SBIRS infra-red detections, are accurate enough to geolocate the launch site."
http://sattrackcam.blogspot.com/2014/07/sbirs-sigint-and-mh17-tragedy.ht...
All that we need to see is the actual SBIRS imagery, not a photoshopped picture a six year old could draw.
SBIRS Capability: http://www2.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB235/new54.pdf
A 6 year old picture a 6 year old could photoshop. Digital Globe 2010.. you can't make this shit up.
Last work that 6 year old did was a Birth Certificate.
Thank you. I don't know anything about satellite tracking. I've been waiting for someone, the U.S., Russia, God, Satan, you, to present some simple, concise, information.
There's also suppose to be AWACS in the area...
http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/ukraine-crisis-nato-watching-russians-close...
@ Gaius Frakkin': "There's also supposed to be AWACS in the area..."
Been reconfigured, to "A WANKS"
Yeah, and they'd better not forget to bring the real birth certificate of the Kenyan this time, not the fake one.
Signed: an American.
Some tech info on the SAM system. It has a special ability.
One would be forced to assume either the IFF was switched off, or MH 17 was flying silent. Over a war zone. To save fuel.
This thing stinks so bad from every angle.
It really does, nobody wants to know the truth...
Reality Alert!
These systems (SA-11) have a very limited IFF capability. They aren't capable of discerning the sqwak of "United 44 Heavy" v. "Malaysia MH 17". Read this part twice as it is important: They are merely able to identify friendly aircraft with a compatable IFF code system from EVERYTHING ELSE. Everything Else is a skin-paint target which appears as a blob on the operator's screen. Some of the more modern systems are able to interface with units higher in the air defense heirarchy to determine if it has a civilian transponder, but, they need direction from outside parties to figure out who is who. Note, military aircraft carry two sets of transponders. One that is for operations in civilian airspace, which happens every day every where, and the IFF that is exclusive to their military. Also, please remember that the Russian systems are designed to be operated by conscripts who are very very unsophisticated people and decisions in a Russian designed air defense system are made way up the channel above the field operator's level.
The analysis that the operators were able to figure out what was cruising along up there is ignorant of how these systems work and the conditions that existed at the time of the shoot down. All the operators knew was that a blob was cruising through their area of responsibility. If they had standing orders to launch on anything in their engagement envelope they locked and fired at the blob. They almost certainly did not have contact with a broader air defense command and control structure who had visibility on regional air traffic (v. enemy operations) and might have instructed them to let that one go. Stupid is as stupid does.
My Conclusion:
Ummm, yeah. Can I have some of what you are smoking? That is some Fox News-level analysis.
I mean, you really think Malaysia Airlines MH370 disappeared??? Not got electronically hijacked to Diego Garcia?
hey guys, I found something which I think is relevant:
the BUK 1 missile in stand alone mode only has a narrow beam target radar that can be locked on and has a range of about 40 km..
it does NOT have a medium range 360 degree detection radar if it's just the single unit.
(and if I presume it's a seperatist forces owned system, likely not turned on all the time (to avoid detection))
that means... the person that fired this BUK-1 must've had up to date information about the flightpath, or a radar unit.
NEITHER can be said about the rebels.
source:
https://twobirdsflyingpub.wordpress.com/2014/07/18/ukraine-the-sa11-surf...
http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-9K37-Buk.html
The SA 11 is capable of 360 degree search by moving the vehicle and seperately articulating its built in search radar. Also, on a clear day the crew can orient the vehicle and search dish to track a target that is observed visually. An aircraft contrail viewed from the ground can actually be up to 70 miles away from the observer with a naked eye. We don't need a conspiracy to make this happen. As always, it is the simple answer that should rise to the top. Keiv does not need to murder 300 people to make Russia look like facist stooges! Russia has been busy stealing territory and resources, just recently taking territory from Ukraine (lots of other examples available if you'd like to argue the point). This war is just Putin's attempt to reinflate the empty Soviet Empire.
Most logical conclusion is:
YOU'RE WRONG ON ALL COUNTS.
A single launch unit DOES NOT HAVE A BUILT IN SEARCH RADAR. It has a H/I-band FIRE DOME monopulse guidance and tracking radar.
See.. the seperatists do NOT have a full SA-11 system (TELAR (9A310M1), Loader/Launcher (9A39M1), SNOW DRIFT Surveillance Radar (9S18M1), and Command and Control vehicle (9S470M1). They only have the TELAR (launch vehicle with the guidance and tracking radar).
It was an overcast day so visibillity would be nil (plane was flying above the clouds)
Most logical conclusion is (still):
- Russia has absolutely nothing to gain from shooting down an airliner. They're doing great winning hearts and minds (BRICS). Why would they down a Malaysian (potential ally) plane?
- The governement of Poroshenko is under a lot of pressure and just had to instate DRAFT for the army. More cannon fodder please?
http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/third-wave-of-military-draft-beg...
- It's not the russians who are the actual fascists but NEO-NAZI'S IN KIEV'S SECRET SERVICE LIKE Andriy Parubiy (Secretary of the Security and National Defense Committee, which supervises the defense ministry and the armed forces.)
http://consortiumnews.com/2014/04/16/ukraine-through-the-us-looking-glass/
and this Yatsenyuk (Kiev Government) called and wrote about that they see the russian ethnic population as "wipe out the subhumans".
Here White House spokesperson mrs. Psaki is waving all responsibillity....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBy7tQ124Fk
for those that missed it:
https://web.archive.org/web/20140615062948/http://usa.mfa.gov.ua/en/press-center/news/24185-mi-uvichnimo-pamjaty-gerojiv-ochistivshi-nashu-zemlyu-vid-nechistiarsenij-jacenyuk-u-spivchutti-ridnim-i-blizykim-zagiblih-vojiniv-u-lugansyku
- The other planes were within reach of so called "Manpads" handheld SAMs.
NO YOU ASSHOLE. don't play the guilt card on me.
478 people died in E-Ukraine, because of this CIVIL WAR, which the Kiev Government started. Many of them civiliians.
But that doesn't bother anyone because they've been labelled "pro russian".
and now 298 people died in a plane.
there were people on that plane that I've met. no they weren't my friends but actual people. the Prime minister of my country made an arse out of himself to Putin because he believed in the Kiev propaganda of looting soldiers and messing around with bodies......
so now I'm asking questions.
I WANT THE TRUTH. I WANT THE USA TO BRING THEIR RADAR AND SATELLITE DATA ON THE TABLE RIGHT NOW.
That they're stalling is NOT a sign of strength. It's a slap in the face of previously loyal allies. (The dutch). It's not 2001 it's 2014.
The russians seem to understand this. But the US Gov and Euromaidan shills like you must've missed it.
My comments are correct. The SA 11 is an autonomous mobile air defense system designed to move with armor columns as they attack or defend. They are not capable of operating like an Air Traffic Control center. As I have stated they have the ability to identify properly equiped friendly aircraft but beyond that they can't tell anything about the target. I suggest you renew your subscription to "Janes" and read up.
As to this incident it is clear, by this I mean even the Russians are acknowledging this fact, that they were deployed by Russian friendly forces in an silly attempt to secure the airspace around an area of strategic interest to the Russian friendly rebels. They fired at an unarmed airliner because the company that owned the airliner decided it was just fine to fly where planes had been shot down all week. Russia screwed the pooch and here we are.
The US does not have any data that will clear up Putin's murderous actions here and you are a fool if you think that is the case.
It's 2014 alright and the facists are on the march again! Heil Putin! LOL
No they are not. YOU ARE STILL WRONG ON ALL COUNTS.
The SA-11 is a whole system of diverse vehicles. The BUK-1 is a TELAR launch vehicle that can also operate in stand alone mode.
YOU GOT THOSE TWO MIXED UP. You looked up the SA-11 on Jane's, hence your confusion. In stand alone mode the BUK-1 (TELAR) is capable of locking onto a target, but only has a very narrow radar beam. It does NOT have a search radar.
It is nearly impossible to hit a plane at 10 km height, above cloud cover, at 700 mph without knowing it's coming, and where from exactly.
And that's not the only thing you're confused about.
Please stop drinking the coolaid and look at this:
yes that's right. the "special ally of the USA" (Senate S.2277) are fucking nazis.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHTKC-3d6bk
You're all the time pointing at Putin. As if recognising the USA has fallen into the gutter makes me a Putin fan.
As if not choosing for one side must mean automatically one MUST choose the other.
That is such an old divisive trick.
You honestly thought that would work?
I'm not confused. I never said they were one individual tank you idiot. Nobody here did. You know I'm right in my assessment, we can tell because you are screaming at the top of your lungs about irrelevent data.
The Russians kill Aids workers and aisian pilots and you scream at me about things I didn't say.
You protesteth too much......
AND YOU'RE STILL WRONG ON ALL COUNTS
The seperatists presumably have one BUK-1 vehicle, a TELAR. (as is now known and admitted by themselves)
https://twitter.com/NatVasilyevaAP/status/490099190522187776
NOT a complete system as is the SA-11. (like you said)
But the morons at the State Dept. are blabbering about an SA-11.
So you probably didn't look further. Because you still don't understand what the fuck this is about.
Stupidity like that starts wars. o__O That's why I'm not in the mood to play nice.
Your countrymen have stolen land belonging to others. In the process of stealing more land, resources, and enslaving people's lives, your leader Putin has decided it would be a great idea to give his thugs control of very sophisticated missile systems. This has directly resulted in the murder of 298 innocent people. Yes. Those types of actions do start wars.
You and your countrymen need to own that.
Please listen to this. If you're not a shill you might get some clue out of it.
Published on Jun 8, 2014 Interview with Jay Blackwood about Ukraine:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cs0cNTuyt2o
Rebels are retreating .... No wonder they have to shoot at civilians to feel "manly"
Funny stuff!
http://online.wsj.com/articles/ukraine-officials-say-pro-russia-rebels-f...
The recapture of Slovyansk marks a major victory for government forces, which had made slow but steady gains against militants in eastern Ukraine since a cease-fire expired on Monday. Slovyansk was one of the main centers of the insurgency, and the base of the main rebel commander, a Russian citizen who goes by the pseudonym Igor Strelkov. (Follow updates on the crisis in Ukraine.)
The advance of Kiev forces puts pressure on the Kremlin to step in and help, but it has given little indication it will. A senior Russian diplomat said Saturday that the acute phase of the conflict between Kiev and the militants could last "a matter of weeks."
And Americans outsource their killing of innocent people to Ukeys and Goat-Fuckers...
http://stratrisks.com/geostrat/20398?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=fe...
When defending US positioning- the moral high ground is NOT a defensible position.
.
Top Rebel Commander in Eastern Ukraine has admitted the Armed Seperatist Movement Had control of a Buk Missile System!
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/23/mh17-ukraine-separatists-bu...
A top rebel commander in eastern Ukraine has admitted the armed separatist movement had control of a Buk missile system, which Kiev and western countries say was used to shoot down a Malaysia Airlines plane last week.
Alexander Khodakovsky, who leads the Vostok battalion – one of the main rebel formations – said the rebels may have received the Buk fromRussia, in the first such admission by a senior separatist.
"That Buk I know about. I heard about it. I think they sent it back. Because I found out about it at exactly the moment that I found out that this tragedy had taken place. They probably sent it back in order to remove proof of its presence," Khodakovsky told Reuters.
As two further Ukrainian fighter jets were shot down, apparently by missiles fired from within Russia, Khodakovsky appeared to imply that MH17 was indeed downed by a missile from the Buk. He blamed Ukrainian authorities, however, for allowing civilian jets to fly over its airspace when the rebels had such capabilities.
"The question is this: Ukraine received timely evidence the volunteers have this technology, through the fault of Russia. It not only did nothing to protect security, but provoked the use of this type of weapon against a plane that was flying with peaceful civilians," he said.
Ignoring the scuttlebutt about Khodakovsky's scheming... you are aware that a simple matter of FACT he just got humiliated and demoted from Minister of Security to battalion (or by the stroke a pen - brigade) commander.
Hello Urban red...
It is hilarious that you have to scream out loud about "moral highground" instead of speaking to the facts on the ground.
Once again for the record:
Again, when talking about about the current "difference of opinion" between the USSA and the USSR, talking the moral high ground is indefensible for an adult. In simplest terms, DO YOU DENY THAT THE US DOES THE SAME SHIT?
It's not like every one of your bullet points couldn't be reworded to apply to the US.
So, after your case has been proven utterly false, you declare moral equivalence? Murdering innocents are perfectly acceptable to you. It was never about the dead people you just didn't want US to mention the blood dripping from your fingers? You are pathetic.
We'll take care of US. You stop Heir Putin.
Lest you end up like Heir Adolf, Heir Tojo, Heir Saddam, Heir Osama, Heir Noriega, Heir Gadaffi and a hundred other tin pot dictators....
The choice is yours.
You haven't addressed my case, despite my having provided the opportunity for simple yes/no answer. You also apparently don't even understand what moral equivalence is (hint: when the circumstances actually are similar, there is no false equivalence). In fact, your ability to pack so many logical and rhetorical fallacies into so few sentences makes wonder you are stupid enough to believe your bullshit, or just some troll trying to drag the reasoned into some mindless screaming match. Care to try again?
It's not enough that your heros murder innocent people! They continue to steal from them! Putin's thugs are Pathetic! Russia needs to go home and leave the world alone.
http://news.malaysia.msn.com/tmi/mh17-victim%E2%80%99s-credit-cards-used...
MH17 victim’;s credit cards used after crash, says report
The report said that a picture of a rebel taking a ring from a body at the disaster site has also surfaced.
"After terrorists looters stole all the cash, jewellery, mobile phones and credit cards of passengers of ill-fated Boeing – they took up their favourite deal – gathering of scrap metal. Aluminium from which the plane is made is expensive," Ukrainian government adviser Anton Gerashchenko was quoted as saying.
Ukraine's National Security and Defence Council spokesman Andrei Lysenko, was also reported as saying previously that there were no limits to the "cynicism of these gangsters".
You are a fraud.
Look at the text that you quote and present as having any validity whatsoever, see the word "ALL"? That cannot be true. I don't even need to contradict the propaganda of a combatant in civil war with the words of chief of OSCE observer mission.
You also might want to look at previous incidents of looting at crash sites outside of the homeland of stupid spoiled Americans... Ask yourself why the US wasn't throwing the same temper tantrum in all these other situations?
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=looting+at+plane+crash+site+%20-malaysia+-malaysian...
As soon as the video is released, that one goes up smoke, in the mean time it's he said then/he said now and thus meaningless from an evidentiary standpoint for the point you're trying to advance...
http://en.ria.ru/world/20140724/191172688/Donetsk-Commander-Denies-Telli...
MOSCOW, July 24 (RIA Novosti) - A leader of the independence supporters in the self-proclaimed People’s Republic of Donetsk, Commander of the Vostok Battalion Alexander Khodakovsky, denied having told Reuters that militia forces possessed Buk missiles when the Malaysia airliner crashed in the region, RT television channel reported Thursday.
"We were discussing theories but one simple phrase was cutting throughout like a red line that I do not have the information on militia possessing such kind of a weapon," Khodakovsky said in an interview with RT, or Russia Today.
On Wednesday, Reuters published an exclusive interview with Khodakovsky saying he acknowledged that independence supporters "did possess the Buk missile system," which the militia forces were provoked to use by Ukrainian special forces and could sent back subsequently "to remove proof of its presence."
In the RT interview, Khodakovsky denied the militia had Buk missile systems near the town of Snizhne, 10 kilometers (six miles) away from the Boeing 777 crash site.
Khodakovsky also said he had a video recording of the Reuters interview that could prove he did not tell the agency that the independence supporters possessed missile systems. He said he had told Reuters that he was not an expert and could not comment on the crash, while all the videos with militia forces talking about having Buk systems were dated the day before the crash.
In a television show broadcast on the Internet a day earlier, Khodakovsky neither agreed nor denied Kiev's claims that independence supporters had shot down the plane. He only said that if Ukrainian authorities knew that the DPR allegedly possessed Buks, they should have banned civilian flights in the Donetsk airspace.
Last Thursday, Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 en route from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur was downed near the city of Donetsk in eastern Ukraine, killing all 298 people on board, including 283 passengers and 15 crew members.
Russia’s Defense Ministry said that at the time of the crash, the Ukrainian military had at least 27 Buk surface-to-air missile systems capable of hitting targets at the attitude of up to 25,000 meters (82,000 feet).
Where did you go Reptil?
Your people are loosing their proxy war for Putin and admitting to killing innocents? Where did you go? Don't you want to argue some more?
Hey Reptil, the world is laughing at you.
Forging data is difficult. Not as easy as dropping a pristine passport in a warzone, or forging a birth certificate well enough to pass the scrutiny of the average pewblik edewkayted FSA zealot.
Really now, tell that to the NSA which can put stuff on your hardrive and change the time and date signatures. Come on dude they have full backdoor control of all the operating systems. These guys can make an ice cream sundae on your computer screen and replay the footage from the last time you screwed you mistress...lol
When it comes do data there is nothing they can't forge
The issue is, the russians came out with their intel first.
And it has some things that obviously can be checked. Otherwise the russians wouldn't open their mouths about it.
The USA dumping crude psychological crap on all our laps right now is an affront.
They better fess up real quick.
We're losing patience here.
Hey Reptil
Your Putinist rebels are already admitting they did it. Russia is backing away from their support in shame and embarrasement. The murderers are loosing on the battlefield.
Reptil, you are proved a liar.
What Cosmos said. Plus...
Whatever FX (special effects) that Hollywood creates is any 'reality' TPTB want you to see & hear. What color pill (red or blue) did you take today? ;-)
How Can We NOT TRUST The US "Evidence"??? I Mean Just Look At Thouroughness And Honesty The Kennedy Assasination Investigations And Conclusion...
Don't forget the USS Liberty investigation . . . or 9/11.
Also, Gulf of Tonkin, Iraq WMD, Oklahoma bombing, Lustitania, USS Maine, et al.
We Have Evidence! File that with check's in the mail, If you like your insurance, Only the tip, Of course I'll respect you in the morning, Patriot Act, We're not collecting your data, I won't come in your mouth, We can't retrieve the e-mails, It's for the children, The border is secure, Recovery, Common sense gun legislation, Leadership,
Oh hell, we get it.
LOL, beautifully stated.
This is supposed to be evidence? Even Colin Powell's Iraq "Evidence" was better than this pathetic effort. Anyone can draw a diagram like this but it is NOT evidence.
Its a step up from Netanyahu's picture of a cartoon bomb but not by much. Yesterday saw a diagram from Israel they released with a line drawing of a house/small apartment block and under the house tunnels and storage for bombs. They use this as the evidence they require to blow up Gaza apartment blocks. They are sloppy.
listan soldier youse leaves colon puss powell outta dis.
dat god damn all american nigga is a here ho sea.
eyes once saws him butt naked in boheimian grove gay lodge near san fran queerways.
he all soft and blubbery likes a beached wales he had a litlle boy on his belly der boy alas was cryin and askin for his mommy.
colon wid a straight face says too der boy she dead and started laffin it was such bloody fun times at dat jewish campin lodge
This is a joke right?
I wonder if the guys who came up with this drew Bibi's bomb too?
pods
pods, see you posted the same as me 8 minutes before me, hadn't seen yours replied to the post above immediately. It is very clear what we see happening.
It took a while to find the guy who had the full version of Adobe to mark up the Google Earth image. Budget cuts, you know. Most of us just have the free reader and can't draw the lines.
RazPutin?
Cartoon Network. I saw Wile E Coyote with this same diagram.
CNN, riddle me this... Official German government sources reveal [1] that there were radar/transponder issues over various EU countries.
There is further evidence (per the Times of India article [2]) that flight MH17 was diverted by Kiev controllers into a "direct routing" path that avoids the zig-zags and takes it over a risky region. When MH17 failed to respond to controllers, the nearby AI flight (25 km or 90 seconds away) was asked to speak to (or listen in on) the the MH17 pilots.
There is also further evidence (per Russian Defence Ministry information) that Ukrainian Air Force fighter jets went to check it out. It is logical and reasonable to think that they then "shadowed" the MH17 flight for a while. Whether they shot it down, after being unable to contact the pilots, or whether SAMs were used, is TBD.
Any way you slice it, it's a messy affair, and our "leaders" are not providing responsible or measured leadership with their zealous beating of war drums.
It does indeed look, feel and smell just like another "FDR setup" or "911 setup" [3] to force the opposition into a Sucker Punch, to artificially create the public (US, EU) outrage and justification for a major conflict/war. A conflict/war, that would save the USD from its demise as the GRC.
While the public's attention is momentarily distracted by these tragic events, ISIS is still on a roll, as are the IDF in Gaza. Where's the US/NATO "outrage" there?
[1] http://adam.curry.com/enc/20140720012844_1801925hunkolinke.pdf
Tue, 07/22/2014 - 08:17 | 4987196 FrustratedLogician
[2] http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Air-India-flight-was-90-seconds...
Tue, 07/22/2014 - 08:18 | 4987197 Truly Inspiration
[3] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1GCeuSr3Mk
Tue, 07/22/2014 - 08:54 | 4987336 samsara
the US has too many hot war fronts today.
what does this mean?
The Times of India link is a killer ******* thanks
so the Ukranian Control Tower issues statement that the Air India flght didnt exist in the air space
incredible!!!!!
so NATO was doing an exercise... where is the real data... instead of this pathetic powerpoint slide...
http://themillenniumreport.com/2014/07/mh-17-and-nato-excercise-breeze-2...
or CiaNN remember thier lowsy powerpoint presentations
CNN. Communist News Network.
The irony of that comment is not lost on me!
Seriously, the world is so fucking screwball I feel like I am in a MC Escher painting ...
Regards,
Cooter
More like Hironmus Bosch in his visions of hell and purgatory.
"CNN, Communist News Network"
synonymous with CNN, Clinton News Network
Convinced me. Can't type. Off to recruiters office.
Remind me again, how many levels existed in Obama's cave in the mountains of Afghanistan?
https://img.youtube.com/vi/FGhGHxw0mSo/0.jpg
edit: Osama, of course, though I'll leave it there for the comedy.
That is a direct copy of my GI Joe Mountain Fortress! Osama was even more capable than I thought! His spies even penetrated Hasbro!
LOL the source it the Times of London, I am sure that must be the layout under Bin Laden's London Townhouse, after all the Brits must of built it for him.
Obama, Osama, WTF's the difference? They're all CIA.
Bin Ladens Cave according to Rumsfeld:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGhGHxw0mSo
and the cherry on top:...not one of those, there are many of those
Which seems to be far better than the fake Jew news from Merica, what's your point?
TB, I don't know his point, but my point to your post is: There's a difference between "Jew" and "Zionist".
Not all Jews are Global Zionists (Neocons), and not all Global Zionists are Jews (Cheney...).
Words matter. Say what you mean, and mean what you say. If we are to make progress (and move the yard sticks).
I had a kool aid drinker like you tell me yesterday that they have recordings of the rebels bragging about the shoot down and video of the missile hitting the plane.
He then called me a paranoid nutjob who believes in chemtrails and flouride in our water.
Where do you lemmings get your news?
How dare you to think, Mr. Pink!? ;-)
Think Pink / Bike Blood
"A mighty crash, I grabbed the sky, Oh Jesus! I've been hit!"
: (
The bike accident happened because the car driver that hit him ran a red light "cause the driver was asleep"...
One bucket of cold water... coming right up.
but its always the biker's fault, well, cause he's usually dead.
It's one of the reasons people mock this blog. The good it does is offset by the bat shit crazy comments section which drives an agenda that too often turns into a farce. Yea we get it: Obama's a fool. Nobody with any sense argues otherwise. But to sanctify Vladimir Putin is beyond the pale. Blaming everything on Wall Street, the evil West and a plethora of sinister conspiracies is just lazy thinking. The truth doesn't care about ideology or how much a person wants something to be true. Facts are facts....even when they conflict with an irrational love for an ex-KGB agent who has enriched himself while the people of his country still struggle to catch up to the brighter future they deserve. All some people care about is nationalistic pride and that is a recipe for disaster.
Digital Globe, 2010
off you go.
The trouble here is that we don't know the "facts". We have two propaganda machines spitting out parallel information. I don't have a clue what the truth is, but to be honest, the Russian propaganda and their communications strategy in general is more credible in my mind than the US version. Given Russian history with propaganda, that is a massive damning of what the US government and MSM have become.
And we will never know the facts.
My simplified view is the only possibility you can safely rule out of any controversial topic is the version of the story that the US says happened.
WMDs (Syria, Iraq)
Osama killing
Pat Tilman killing
9/11
etc, etc.
People here don't trust either side.
We do however look at things like evidence (or lack there of) and motive.
Motive? Why that's just crazy-talk!
laming everything on Wall Street, the evil West and a plethora of sinister conspiracies is just lazy thinking.
__________________________________________
'Americans' do not do that.
Actually, they use their propaganda as a wide noise to cover the things 'americans' are responsible.
The 'american' middle class do not want to hear of reality, certainly not,they can not take it.
Crafting propaganda is the way 'americans' use to avoid speaking of what they are responsible for.
So no, 'americans' do not blame everything on themselves.
Why does everything our government produce only fit for the consumption of people with the equivalence of a 6th grade education and the Russians' produce college level ?
@ Payne: "Why does everything our government produce only fit for the consumption of people with the equivalence of a 6th grade education and the Russians' produce college level ?"
Maybe because all you need is 6th grade info-processing when it comes to convincing 80% of the US populace. Remember, it's not so much about Truth, as it is about creating a Story, to align & direct national support. It's the "throw shit at the wall and see what sticks" approach.
If you want to disarm Propaganda, you have to offer the truth that people will process, who prefer reason and logic over emotion. It's "the truth will out" approach, IMO.
"Around here the only "evidence" is from Russia and blogs."
CUI BONO
Any sane mind even with half brain will ask the above... CUI BONO
Btw which party did DIVERT the MH17 flight path? aha, i assume the pertinent air traffic controller tower was in control by the anti-fascist forces in southeastern Ukie :-) lol
roadhazard et al
Repeatedly, comments are posted complaining ZH is siding with Putin "too much".
Immediately after 9/11,
ANY presentation deviating from the official narrative was denounced as "excuse-making for the terrorists".
ANY consideration of possible blowback motives was condemned as "siding with the terrorists".
Perhaps the complainers would do well to examine their own bias
as to where the "line too much" is supposedly crossed when critically examining US policies.
As I see it, no scenario has been left out from being presented or closed to logical criticism and examination in either the ZH articles or the open comments section.
Another version of the insinuated complaint has been fashioned from the illogical contention that since "both" sides are propagandizing, then both sides have no more than equally valid arguments. Both sides are therefore equally true.
Thus, accepting either narrative is alleged no better than flipping a coin to determine "truth".
EXCEPT, further elaborating from the nativist prejudice that since Russia lies "more" (sinister motives)
any credence given to Russian arguments is reflexively deemed as showing "pro-Russian bias".
Conveniently and illogically, the US narrative is habitually claimed more "credible", and accepting it supposedly more "realistic". Critics of US policies and exceptionalism are made out to be "unrealistic" and "biased".
But again, as I see it, no scenario has been left out from being presented, or has been closed to logical criticism and examination in either the ZH articles or the open comments section.
Perhaps because the US government and the last two Presidents have been so truthful in the past.
Seriously?
Is that the best they've got?
This from a country that hoovers the world's data on a daily basis...
I've seen "Enemy of the State" (and that was in 1998), surely they can do better than and that...
People are far too tech savvy now to fall for such lame "evidence"
I also believe that Lois Lerner's hard drive crashed because of sparks in it's center fuel tank.
I thought it was an errant BUK missile that destroyed it...
No, they are not. They will fall for it. Trust me we've all seen this movie before.
If you look into it, it's very evident that The birth certificate is a crude forgery. Why would they do that ? They don't care. They own the 'news' media & will spin or ignore any story. They know the American people have been so dumbed down (purposely) that they couldn't recognize a logical fallacy if it bit them on their rather large asses.
This is all par for the course when the script is written in Hollywood. If you've ever been on a movie set, or even in a TV newsroom, you'll know what I mean.
The props to the show are fake, just real enough to get past the consciousness of the mentally challenged sheeple. The birth certificate looks real enough at first glance, and that is all the attention which the numb minded will afford before switching the channel to the latest HBO serial or video game.
The reason the US Deep State doesn't use better fake evidence is they don't have to.
In fact, poorly done fake evidence that works is even better, they send a message to anyone really paying attention that they are running the show, they own reality.
Chutzpah indeed. Makes me remember the scene from the (really insightful) first Matrix movie when Smith is interrogating Neo:
How can you scream if you have no mouth?
Fucking exactly!
Perhaps in their arrogance they just don't have it in their DNA to deftly execute this sort of shit anymore. Maybe they never did and it's the awareness created with blogs/etc that is chipping away at the narrative being sold.
At least one nation (if not three) have very solid irrefutable evidence that could be made available. Let's see what happens.
Regards,
Cooter
First post.
I came across this site about 6 months ago, and have since come to love the broad cross section of views and articles. It felt good to find a news source that offered more than just a parroting of the processed "truth". Then, on a particularly boring day, I scrolled down and discovered a comment section.
Some of you are dicks. You simply believe the opposite of whatever news is pasted on every MSM site. It is an exploitable fault, allowing those who create spin to muddy the waters further. To you I say that you are worse even than the sheeple, who are mostly just guilty of ignorance.
Some of you are very well informed, and I enjoy reading your comments. Getting a valid, fact based opinion is important to anybody seeking the truth. I may agree or disagree, but to you I say thank you.
Some of you are quite the cut- up, thanks for the laughs.
Now for my first comment.
I assume the "evidence" is in this format to protect top secret shit. Give your enemy nothing. Or maybe just another load of Grade A shiite.
Cheers.
Or perhaps the 'top secret shit' like the data from the AWACS or EA-18G (NATO Exercise SEA BREEZE) that were flying in the vacinity during the crash tell a story the Pentagon doesn't want anyone to hear. Hence the laughable image they've released as 'evidence'
http://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2014/07/21/mh-17-beware-of-the-chameleon.html
you didnt say anything - why waste space?
Isn't that the same wherever people gather?
Unlike many other places, full of shit opinions will be challenged by others.
Remember that National Reconnaissance Office satellite launch in late 2013(NROL-39)? The mission logo depicted an octopus enveloping the Earth and a caption that read: "Nothing is beyond our reach".
Page 3:
http://www.nro.gov/news/press/2013/2013-04.pdf
via https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Reconnaissance_Office#NMIS_network
NRO's technology is likely more advanced than its civilian equivalents. In the 1980s the NRO had satellites and software that were capable of determining the exact dimensions of a tank gun.[19] In 2011 the agency donated two space telescopes to NASA. Despite being stored unused, the instruments are superior to the Hubble Space Telescope. One journalist observed, "If telescopes of this caliber are languishing on shelves, imagine what they're actually using."
This quote accurately applies to the Deep State Black Budget in general. We are being lied to. About everything.
Fix your links, yo.
Go to the Wikipedia link I posted and click on the exact same hyperlinks from the paragraph I copy and pasted, yo.
yeah, like an Su-25 with a 10km operating ceiling is called "evidence"... I like how this stuff is alleged but the pooty poot evidence is ironclad... fucking whatever, RThedge... if I really want to know what's going on I'll go here...
http://avherald.com/h?article=47770f9d&opt=0
Russian evidence may be fake but at least they made an effort for fucks sake. The American evidence just insults my intelligence.
Lets count the falsehoods already from the Ukies/US:
1. No Ukie military aircraft in the area
2. No Air India in the area
3. Photos were of BUK launcher heading to Russia.
That is 3 major falsehoods already. There are stacks of unanswered questions with the biggest one being why was MH17 redirected over the war?
Google Earth, MS Word Drawing and 10 minutes, a Monkey can produce this slide. Sadly, 90% of American couch potatoes will accept this evidence as gospel. Some will even send their kids to Eastern Europe to fight the Evil-Russians in their back yard. Weird...
I see...a photoshopped line on an aerial image.
Yea, looks good...for immediate release.
Questions: Is the one photo shown in this ZH article the only evidence released by US govt sources ? If not, what else are they presenting ?
Are there independent intel experts who have given a response to any of the evidence that has been released by any of the parties ? Expertise is needed to interpret this for non specialists.
Its important to keep an open mind until hearing all sides of the story.
FYI... http://www.amazon.com/Mccormick-Evidence-Hornbooks-Kenneth-Broun/dp/0314...
Invest in yourself, by reducing ignorance and gullibility with real skills of reason and principles.
Not real satellite images but only where they say it came from. Surprised they didn't do it in a cartoon format. Give us real evidence not created ones.
Pepe Escobar (Asia Times) nails it in this op-ed:
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Central_Asia/CEN-01-190714.html
Let me see, Zero Hedge claims as fact:
Putin, the KGB Colonel, always tells the truth,
like I annexed Crimea, and trying to do same in E Ukraine.
Pro Russian Separatists always tell the truth, while drunk,
like hey we cannot shoot this missle, we're drunk stupid slavs,
not Russian Military Intelligence agents.
And the USA and Obama, the first Black President,
Harvard Consititutional Law Professor,
always lies, with CIA supporting, cuz Snowden says so.
...And even a photo of the missle firing and striking
from drunk separatists town is not to be believed.
Cuz Tyler Durden says so.
I am the first to agree that information on ZH needs to be held to the same standards as any other media source. There are plenty of examples where they have failed. The one that sticks in my mind was a couple of years ago when they quoted inside information saying that Israel would attack Iran within days. Here we are. Didn't happen.
That said, however, in general, this blog provides a lot of information that is not distributed elsewhere, and that information provides a useful and helpful balance to what has clearly become a propaganda machine, especially on CNN.
For the specifics of your post: "...and even a photo of the missile firing and striking from drunk separatists town is not to be believed."
When I see such a photo, I will examine it and attempt to judge validity. But this is not that photo. This is merely putting a background satellite image underneath the same story the administration has been trying to convince people is the truth since day one. Missiles don't leave a nice clean colored line and a happy "bang!" at the end. This is not evidence. It's another way of presenting the story, nothing more.
this blog provides a lot of information that is not distributed elsewhere
___________________
Which are? The information is everywhere.
In the meantime, no articles on TAFTA. It does not matter, it is not financial.
Show me references to the Bank of International Settlements in the MSM. It's on here constantly. Just one example.
You stopped me at "Putin, the KGB Colonel, always tells the truth".
Please provide ZH articles to support your claim, lest you be outed as a Moron* or shill.
* A Moron was originally a term in Clinical Psychology, and referred to "The mental development of an adult, that is equivalent to an 8-12 y.o. child".
Someone drew a nice yellow line on a copyright 2010 Digital Globe "cut and paste". Nice.
A very bland power point presentation, thats it. All that "evidence" is just a power point presentation of what they want to have happened. By throwing in the "satellite" wording is supposed to make it legit saying that a "satellite" saw this. All that is satellite is the google like map of the ground and the power point coloring. If it was a real satellite presentation it would show real time and or frame pics of the movement of said anti-aircraft batteries moving and shooting and the end result of the plane crashing. This evidence was a joke.
Yeah. Both sides are playing "What's my line." and drawing pretty lines on maps and photographs. That is not evidence in my book from any of them.
I was hoping the bears could come out and splain it. Long time, no bears ZH...
Anyone surprised this was not #'ed?
Everyone know's it is impossible for anyone but the legal authorities to draw lines on computer maps and that those lines have to be accurate and correct. I think it's the 7th law of nature of somesuch.
"CNN reports"
LOL. That's all you need to know that the propaganda machine is winding up.
yep. Im not saying the Uke govt did it, the rebels did it, the russians did it... I don't know who did it, all i know is that i no longer believe anything CNN says, or our govt says. They have lied and been caught too many times, and they lie on a continual basis on everything from this story to GDP and inflation. All they do is lie, and CNN and the rest of the MSM is nothing more than a govt mouthpiece. Just because I don't believe our MSM/govt, however, does not mean I then take everything RT says at face value, unlike some on here
How about releasing the trajectory of the other Malaysian Airlines plane that went missing?
The US and Chinese know exactly what general trajectory MH370 went transponders off or not. The cellphones of the passengers were on and some of them where showing up logged into their QQ accounts for up to 7 hours after it went dark....
That plane didn't go south.
It went west to Ukraine via Diego Garcia.