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US State Department "Confident" MH17 "Mistakenly" Downed By Separatists, Finds No Direct Link To Russia
UPDATE: Having failed absymally with their earlier release of "information," US intelligence officials have tried to give more information... sadly this does not include any actual evidence, just statements and confirmation of YouTube clips...
Senior U.S. intelligence officials cited sensors that traced the path of the missile, shrapnel markings on the downed aircraft, voiceprint analysis of separatists claiming credit for the strike, and a flood of photos and other data from social media sites.
The officials also for the first time identified a sprawling Russian military installation near the city of Rostov as the main conduit of Russian support to separatists in Ukraine, describing it as a hub of training and weapons that has expanded dramatically over the past month. The officials said that tanks, rocket launchers and other arms have continued to flow into Ukraine
...
Senior U.S. intelligence officials said they have ruled out the possibility that Ukrainian forces were responsible for the attack.
“That is not a plausible scenario,” said one senior U.S. official, who noted that American intelligence agencies have confirmed that Ukraine had no anti-aircraft missile system within range of the Malaysian flight at the time it was struck.
...
The official was one of three senior U.S. intelligence officials who spoke on condition of anonymity during a briefing arranged for reporters in Washington
...
“We are seeing a full-court press by the Russian government to instruct affiliated or friendly elements to manipulate the media environment to spread Russia’s version of the story,” the official said. “What this looks like again is a classic case of blaming the victims.”
...
The officials also declined to provide more details on the satellites and other sophisticated sensors that enabled them to trace the path of the missile, citing concerns about compromising secret U.S. capabilities.
...
The U.S. officials said they have confirmed the authenticity of some of those recordings, including one in which the self-proclaimed defense minister of the Donetsk People’s Republic, Igor Strelkov, claimed responsibility for shooting down a military transport plane at the time the Malaysian aircraft was struck.
Analysis comparing that audio clip to other confirmed recordings of Strelkov’s voice “confirmed these were authentic conversations,” one of the officials said.
...
“If you listen to Youtube you get that: ‘we’re finding civilians,’” a senior U.S. intelligence official said. Partly for that reason, the official said, “the most plausible explanation to me is [it was] a mistake.”
* * *
So once again no actual evidence... conjecture on 'unknown' recordings provided by Ukraine (ignoring for a moment the fact that the ones that have been released publicly have been proved false). Illustrations of a large Russian military base near the border of Ukraine... well is anyone surprised by that?
With a somewhat shocking lack of evidence, AP reports that US officials (on condition of anonymity) have stated that intelligence suggests Malaysian Airlines Flight MH17 was mistakenly shot down by separatists and can find no link to Russia.
However, the unnamed non-proof-providing officials believed Russia "created the conditions" for the downing of MH17. For now there is not even a YouTube clip to confirm this... as officials do not make the new technical evidence public...
As opposed to Russia's detailed 30-minute press conference,
- U.S. INTELLIGENCE OFFICIALS DID NOT MAKE PUBLIC NEW TECHNICAL EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT ASSERTION THAT PLANE WAS DOWNED BY SA-11 MISSILE OR THAT MISSILE WAS FIRED BY SEPARATISTS
- U.S. INTELLIGENCE OFFICIALS SAY THEY BELIEVE PRO-RUSSIAN SEPARATISTS PROBABLY SHOT DOWN MALAYSIAN PASSENGER AIRLINER “BY MISTAKE"
As Bloomberg notes,
- OFFICIALS DISCUSS MH17 INTELLIGENCE ON CONDITION OF ANONYMITY
- U.S. CITES CLASSIFIED IMAGES MAKING CASE ON MH17 SHOOTDOWN
- U.S. OFFICIALS CONFIDENT IN DETECTION OF JULY 17 MISSILE LAUNCH
Senior U.S. intelligence officials say they have no evidence of direct Russian government involvement in the shooting down of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17.
They say the passenger jet was likely felled by an SA-11 surface-to-air missile fired by Russian-backed separatists in eastern Ukraine and that Russia "created the conditions" for the downing by arming the separatists.
The officials briefed reporters Tuesday under ground rules that their names not be used in discussing intelligence related to last week's air disaster, which killed 298 people.
They said they did not know if any Russians were present at the missile launch, and they wouldn't say that the missile crew was trained in Russia.
A senior official said the most likely explanation was the plane was shot down by mistake.
So it seems like all we have is...
h/t @BarbaraStarrCNN
Which is right in the heart of separatist-held territory...
Satellite image shows spread of debris from Malaysia Airlines flight
* * *
So - to sum up - having told the world that they would release details surrounding intelligence about the MH17 disaster, US officials have pulled a "trust us" moment... blamed the "terrorists" and given themselves an out with Putin... all with absolutely no public proof whatsoever...
* * *
Which leaves us with one question - What happened between The White House and Putin (and perhaps Merkel) that ended with this lowering the tone of the debate?
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Farce.
http://www.infowars.com/u-s-admits-its-mh17-evidence-is-based-on-youtube-clips-social-media-posts/
An SA-11 leaves an enormous smoke trail when fired ... where are the photographs of it? ... surely someone at the CIA has thought about that ...
Tuesday Humor?
Lemme guess, they're still going after MOAR sanctions.
Internecine wars in the halls of power.
BBC has been touting the party line in full force today. Now they have to do an about face. Something is going on behind the scenes.
The only thing that could make this administration appear more compentent is ... cowbell.
More cowbell.
Regards,
Cooter
More Ding-a-lings?
just after ramadan-a-ding-dong.
It doesn't matter what the US says now because the US media has already done their damage to Russia.
Backing up slowly!
Uh.. mmm.. I ah... well.... we a know a seeing that.... uh... revenge will be ours upon whitey and uh....
I suspect the Neocons have been "pantsed" by Putin yet again.
Now let's get down to what really was on the flight: Jim Stone Freelance.
And let's find out why Serco flew it over troubled airspace: Abel Danger.
http://www.intellihub.com/mh17-shot-missile-video/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?list=UUKqFo29EDYngB8QcWEJ3Smg&v=MaeSwhen4mQ
<- Russia's fault
<- Not THAT Russia, the other Russia
Ok I will buy that ...... now .... who "mistakenly" routed said jet over said no fly war zone ?
Note: video above is not of MH17.
I think common sense points towards some separatist cholo who wanted to scare the shit out of somebody, and succeeded beyond his dreams. It's possible, it's probable. Now everybody is trying to spin it to their advantage.
He's probably running for his life about now.
Reminds me of the old legal ploy in New York of Sewer Service.
Not a shred of proof... just like all those terrorist plots the NSA supposedly foiled. "Just trust us or die" is the motto of DC.
Lindsey France is no Lauren Lyster, but is still easy on the eyes. Speaking of easy on the eyes, where is Yulia Shapavalova these days?
I find it laughable that the US government thinks that ANYONE trusts what they say.
pods
Another RT report. Of course RT is just a stateside propaganda channel out of D.C., but they seem to put out better shit than any of our American lapdog, scumbag, state-run, "media" shitheads. And I really loved Lauren Lyster's show before she left. Miss her! haha
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=81c_1406069373
RT does put out some very useful info on Europe / US situation, however do note that they are far less focused on uncovering Russian fraud, gov failures, etc.
And Lauren was awesome.
What? Did they shit the BUKs? Russia's at fault. Bitchez.
“officials believed Russia "created the conditions" for the downing of MH17”
“Officials” can believe in the tooth fairy if they want, but I know for a f’n fact that the US created the conditions for there to be separatists to begin with.
Breaking: TeamDepends confident State Department wants to bend TeamDepends over barrel. Film at eleven.
Yeah but Erin Ade is hotter than Lauren Lyster
Hell, I base what I believe to be true on what they deny.
SO WE HAVE CONCLUDED IT WAS SHOT DOWN!
- J "Well when I was in Vietnam" Kerry
"officials believed Russia "created the conditions" for the downing of MH17"
This sounds quite similar to the US criminal justice system, where if your house is the target of a SWAT raid you are responsible if anyone gets hurt by the police, even if found innocent of reason for raiding your home in the first place.
so their story has had a shorter half-life than even their bullshit Benghazi story. Looks like they're already backtracking, stumbling, falling down, and about to totally run away in retreat from this one very soon.
So that must mean they need another False Flag event to turn the attention away from yet another lie they've been caught in and distract the sheeple a little longer.
The Farce is becoming weaker and weaker in these traitors.
I hope we're not going to let quaint concept like "evidence" hang this thing up, are we? Lets accuse, trial, convict and hang 'm...then we can look at all the evidence.
Actual milage may vary.
Objects in Mirror may be closer than they appear.
Just a quick something I whippped up. Fun with Adobe Photoshop and Illustrator. Sums up my problems with this entire world, pretty much.
http://imageshack.us/a/img913/5452/c49bde.jpg
Nicely done - a Canadian W7, eh?
Dial the pixels WAAAAAY down, tho - took me over a minute to render on a T1 line.
dahboo 77 shows some compelling video. check it out.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USjmcEEzgIk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znbU9NQHAm0&list=UUFjOi1ZpZVErr8EYxg8t1dQ
@PC
Disinfo...This clip is NOT MH17 hit, was downing of transport plane (An-30 gets Hit by Manpad over Slavyansk), posted on LiveLeak on Jun-6-2014, over a month earlier... www.liveleak.com/view?i=f80_1402065879
Conditions are now ideal for a takedown of the Cabal. Abel Danger has them pinned and will show no mercy. The ring of Psychopathic, Satanic pederasts controlling the world will be exposed.
Conditions are now ideal for a takedown of the Cabal. Abel Danger has them pinned and will show no mercy. The ring of Psychopathic, Satanic pederasts controlling the world will be exposed.
=
Pinto,
The title of the video (on LiveLeak - the source) is "NOT MH17 being shot down (unconfirmed footage appears to be AH26 not 777) without ads"
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=e57_1405732649
Check.
The dangers of YouTube - note to state department.
I think the Russians have shown O some interesting pictures........
Radar Signatures And Satellite Imagery Of MH17 Shoot Down Reveals Critical Information
If the US has the kind of satellite capabilities it claims/implies it has, they should be able to read the writing on the damn wing - the small stuff, where it says'Do Not Stand Here'
Makes you wonder.
Visual Imagery cannot exist as it was Overcast.
Satellites cannot see through clouds.
It was OVERCAST.
Infrared Imagery cannot exist as the Satellites cannot see through clouds.
It was OVERCAST.
The only observation band available is Radar Imagery. Due to the Long Wavelength of Radio Waves the resolution is limited to Meters at best.
(It was at 4:20 PM local time. Somehow I was fed misinformation that this had happened at night. It does not change any analysis as when it is cloudy our Satellites are rather incapable.)
Just what in the fuck do you want from our Technology? Miracles?
Why don't you pray to your Flying Spaghetti Monster?
Look at the Empirical Evidence...Look at the weather in the videos. (I looked at the NOAA images myself to see if storms were the cause of the reroute South. That is a plausible explanation..)
From the Russian evidence it is most likely that a scrambled Ukranian Fighter Jet shot down MH17 mistaken that it was a Russian Troop Transport. It still was intentional that the Ukraine Pilot targeted that jet and brought it down.
There has been no counterevidence offered by anyone else.
So I yield to Occam's Razor.
"I think the Russians have shown O some interesting pictures"
Or, threatened to unload a boatload of treasuries...to get the party started.
Someone's definitely put a bat up Obama's pyjama leg!
You might be right. What ones do you think? Maybe O bent over with Reggie Love's Guided Muscle firmly pounding his ass?
-
"created the conditions" for the downing by arming the separatists. Under those same blame terms - how much is the USA responsible for around the world with our arming of separatists, friends, enemies, basically anyone who will pay our war machine industrial complex to advance our economy for the benefit of our elite?
I know, I know .... a real lot
. . . and who sponsored the overthrow of the elected Ukraine government to start all this crap?
Reposted from earlier - now stale thread - because I think it is relevant:
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-07-22/latest-updates-about-ukraine-an...
>>>
I have read that the AN-26 ceiling is 6400 meters. So far, I believe that the rebels shot an AN-26 down almost simultanious with the downing of MH17, and that when the smoke clears, we will find that there have been two plane crashes and two separate debris areas. One near the Progress mine (AN-26) and scattered areas near the two mentioned villages Hrabove and Rozsypne (MH17). I believe right now, subject to later revision if more credible information surface, that the initial shoot down of the AN-26 and subsequent bragging online was deleted, because a public relations disaster was recognized after learning about MH17, but that it was not because the rebels had actually mistaken the two planes and shot down the wrong one. Some early eyewitness descriptions are supporting this, so either they are blatant lies, or there were two crashes happening at the same time.
I simply do not believe that planes flying at 6400 meters and 10.000 meters that are so different in make-up/profile etc. as AN-26 (much smaller - turbo prop) and a B777 can be mistaken.
But if you happen to know that rebels will shoot at anything that flies under their ceiling of reach and brag about it in a hot-shot manner, as they have done so far, and you happen to plan a shoot down of a civil airliner for political reasons needing as much negative noise as possible towards Russia and rebels as possible to get away with it, I reckon it would be mighty tempting to fly a fully fulled AN-26 (possibly with extra fuel in cargo for schock and awe) in under the ceiling at the exact same time with the explicit aim of having it shot down by rebels - thereby creating a "mistaken" identity narrative and some impressive and pursuasive video pictures of plenty of black billowing smoke for the news networks.
That billowing smoke was filmed from at least two separate locations - what are the odds that two different people would capture that - in a region where people work hard for a living, and not sitting around all day with IPhones waiting for something spectacular to occur. You can hear the zoom "clacking" action on some of the video - and I believe these are small video cameras (aka brought along specifically to film something) - not phones. So these guys were probably prepared/waiting to take the shot.
In my mind, again subject to future revision, the camera men were either rebels doing the actual shooting (and then you could wonder why they did not capture the actual plane as well), or they were "miners working for the other side" capturing pics that were later given to a bragging commander, who took the bait. No plane was shown - so it could also have been a staged ground explosion with employer-captured miners standing by with cameras as instructed - but as of now, I believe they were simply filming an AN-26 crash in a different location that where the MH17 came down.
One miner eyewitness account stated that they had seen the missle trail and then a big boom and then 20 seconds later the black billowing smoke explosion, without seeing the actual plane coming down. Well, if they could see the black-smoke explosion from where they stood - they should have been able to see the plane as well. So he is probably lying, which speaks for the staged ground explosion scenario - but if so, why then would the rebel commander take the bait and use the "crash" footage in his twitter brag, if no AN-26 had been shot down at all.
Alternatively, the miner did not see the plane, how weird that may be, but it was actually there, in which case the stated 20 seconds from boom to crash reveal that he was not witnessing the MH17, because 10.000 meters at free fall (in reality would be slower due to initial accelleration and that it is unclear when the fuselage broke up) but lets just say free fall at 500km/h or 139 meters per second all the way would mean a plane at 10.000 meters takes 72 seconds, if I calculate correctly, to come down, and a plane at 6400 (AN-26 ceiling) meters takes 46 seconds to come down, and a bait AN-26 flying at 3000 meters to be really juicy and tempting would take 20 seconds to come down - but that is speculation of course.
Two other eyewitness account stated that they had first heard the plane, then two booms (withness 1) or 1 boom and subsequent shots (witness 2), and then the plane hit the ground an broke in TWO parts. That does not sound like the MH17 to me.
In any case, I don't believe that the pre-positioned cameramen taking shots of black billowing smoke without an actual plane to be seen were filming the MH17. I think there was another crash or possibly staged ground explosion as well - either that, or the first eyewitnesses have been asked to lie - in which case - because of the early timing of those reports - the possibility of a pre-planned intentional action is still rearing its ugly head a good deal above the possibility of a simple horrendous mistake.
Just my 2 cts for now.
<<<<
I would like to add the following armchair analysis to the information in earlier post:
I have used the following Youtube clips for background:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bn5SbpdyLQE - Video 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srAv-aGocTM - Video 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5tA-DCYG90 - Video 2
Eyewitness 1, whose friend shot video no. 1 from the coal mine looking area estimated that they were 5 km from the crash site. Based on the time of day (17:20 ish) and the approx. location of the Sun/Shadows, this video is shot with a West/North focus, which means the place of the camera must be in the South/East quarter from the crash site in Hrabova. Also - the coal area is flanked by trees on the left-hand side. When I tried to find a location that could be similar with no houses, with coal and trees on the left hand side on Google Maps in a distance of 5-7 kilometers - you will find nothing that matches. The only coal patch in that quarter section also had houses and no flanking trees.
Video no. 2 was taken at a closer proximity. It is clear that film 2 is taken from an almost perfect North - South view, as can be estimated from the shadows behind the passing car. I estimate the distance to be approx 2-2,5 kilometers, when compared with the other video's approx. 5 kilometer distance. Again on Google maps - I went due south 2-2,5 kilometers and give it some wiggling space from the crash site, where the engines came down - I couldn't find any buildings with a west-east bound road that matches the video roof profiles and building layout. Nada.
In short - I think they are lying. I believe the videos show a secondary crash or ground explosion as per my previous comment from earlier today (linked above) - and that the black billowing smoke videos were not related to MH17.
I think that the thaw in aggressive tone means that the warmongering psycopaths have acknowledged that the "mistaken identity" narrative has failed, and that butt saving backpaddling is the only option. I hope that everyone here - including the Tylers - will keep pounding for real answers, out of respect for all the murdered victims, so the culprits will not be successful with yet another cover-up.
Might as well run the real headline
Russian State Department "Confident" MH17 "Mistakenly" Downed By Ukrainian Government, Finds Direct Link To USA's Victoria Nuland recorded as saying fuck the airliner, we need a false flag.
I do not believe that it was an accident.
There was a Ukranian MIG on an intercept course 5km distant from MH17 when the plane was taken down.
This was EVIDENTIAL from the Civil Ukraine Air Traffic Radars which Russia has.
If you read the article on ZH the other day, about Russia's Ten Questions, then it just demonstrates with empirical evidence that there was a Ukraine Warplane, in Air to Air Missile Range, when it happened. (This is separate event from the two Ukraine Military Escorts which had previously left.)
It was an intentional takedown.
That is interesting!. How do you know that the "Russian 10 questions" military aircraft, that became visible on Russian Civil ATC radar as it ascended up through 5000 meter was not one of the two fighter jets that has allegedly followed MH17 prior to the crash according to the tweets from Ukranian ATC worker "Carlos"? Can you provide background information/links for that perspective, please?.
I ask because "Carlos" asserted that the fighter jets stayed on radar for three minutes when/after MH17 was crashing/had crashed. So when you say that it is a separate event with the two military escorts which had previously left, it contradicts the "Carlos" assertions.
Each succeeding statement becomes more and more defensive and ludicrous. First, Putin murdered my child. Then, the Russians did it. And, now, it wasn’t the Russians but even though we don’t have proof, trust us, the separatists did it (not on purpose, it was an accident). Trust us.
These charges with ever lessening impact remind one of DeQuincey's cynical humor:
"If once a man indulges himself in murder, very soon he comes to think little of robbing; and from robbing he comes next to drinking and Sabbath-breaking, and from that to incivility and procrastination."
J.R what would you expect from 20-30 years of dumbing down in the U.S education system? Have you ever looked at an quarterly exam from the late 19th- early 20th century?
Those kids knew how to survey land and price commodities.
I've said it before. Jefferson wrote the Declaration of Independence at age 33. Forward
Warren Buffett wrote/pilaged $5 billion of BAC warrants @ $5.00 in 2008 @ age Fossil.
Is he still long Goldilocks?
"Warrens of Mass Destruction"
He hedged the railroads and insurance stakes Knuks.
By the way knuks, did you catch those HUGe Travelers loses after the Chipotle beat on "wood fillers" to lower costs.(sarc)
Travelers Posts $683M Q2 Profit, Misses Estimates as Catastrophe Losses Rise
Party like it's 1999 bitchez...
It's always best at the peak of Empire
-Nero
Love your comment about school tests in days of yore....
It seriously seems as if the dumbing down has a purpose.....
LOL
Oh fuck me our kids are so screwed.
I didn't rely on the 'schooling system' to bring up my kids.
They are clear thinkers with skills and commitment - no debt either.
They also grew up without TV.
I think they'll do OK.
@yenCross - absolutely correct ! That 95%+ literacy rate and competence (self taught or with a few years in one room school houses) was one of the noted characteristics of Americans during the time of the Revolution.. Schooling was targeted a hundred years ago. The monied elites wanted the population dumbed down so they couldn't provide a competitive threat to their own offspring. John Taylor Gatto has written extensively on the history of the dumbing down of American education.
Yen Cross,
Some of the skills taught 100 years ago were useful back then. Now-a-days you need to be a licenced surveyer to survey land, licenced builder to build you house etc.
So what good would it do to kids to teach them skills they cannot legally use in their economy?
Yeah, ya gotta be licensed for every friggin thing now. Got my hair cut at a beauty schoold in CA recently. The poor shlubs spend like $25k and 14 months to become licensed by da gubmint to give a $10 haircut.
It seems like they deduced what type of evidence the Russians had from the questions they had asked.
I also wasn't aware of this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_recorder
Additional equipment
Since the 1970s, most large civil jet transports have been additionally equipped with a "quick access recorder" (QAR). This records data on a removable storage medium. Access to the FDR and CVR is necessarily difficult because of the requirement that they survive an accident. They also require specialized equipment to read the recording. The QAR recording medium is readily removable and is designed to be read by equipment attached to a standard desktop computer. In many airlines, the quick access recordings are scanned for 'events', an event being a significant deviation from normal operational parameters. This allows operational problems to be detected and eliminated before an accident or incident results.
Many modern aircraft systems are digital or digitally controlled. Very often, the digital system will include Built-In Test Equipment which records information about the operation of the system. This information may also be accessed to assist with the investigation of an accident or incident.
That explains why some reports mentioned that the plane had 12 or 14 "black boxes" onboard rather than the expected 2.
With the communications infrastructure the world has, why not scrap the boxes and stream all this stuff via satellite?
There'd be no question of anyone hiding anything at that point.......
Hang on a mo...........
I think I may have answered my oen question.
I hate to say it, but you may be right. According to a story put out by Rasmussen yesterday, July 21, - an overwhelming majority of Americans think the Russians had something to do with the shootdown. Is this now a nation of morons ? Most of them haven't read a single serious book after leaving high school or college. Critical thinking skills ? Forget about it. They'd rather get back to watching t.v.
If Thomas Jefferson was right when he said a nation cannot be ignorant and also free, - we are So Screwed.
http://m.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/general_politics/j...
Re: "story put out by Rasmussen"
...Is that their "STRONG ASSESSMENT?" Much depends on your sampling and the way a question is asked, but I find more people breaking the mold lately. Knee-jerk jingoism does not seem to be in vogue.
It is true, slaves are generally uneducated; keeps 'em compliant...
No not really, russia damaged themselves when they started sending weapons and troops into a neighboring country, in a soviet era re-do ala vlad the angry inch! Gobble up countries while the west circle jerks all over each other and ZH tools go wild with a man crush!
I'm just trying to understand White House logic.
If....
Missle = Made in Russia
President of Russia = Putin
Putin = directly responsible for every piece of damage done by said missle.
so...
Missle = Made in America
President of America = Obama
Obama = directly responsible for....wow...the list is incredible.
They are extremely competent once you understand what they are doing... or what they've done to allow them to do what they do today.
As an aside, watch "Flight TWA 800" on Netflix for an excellent documentary that shows the various government agencies and the media lying through their teeth with their pants down around their ankles.
It is rare that the good guys and the bad guys are so obviously juxtaposed.
Well that's it then. There's all the scientific proof we need.
The debate is clearly over. The time for Climate Action and carbon taxes is NOW...
oh wait..
Either Ukraine gov shot down the plane to frame Russia, or they tricked the separtists into shooting it.
The key here is Ukraine sending fighters to shadow the 777. Right out of the CIA playbook for making a plane "disappear" on radar. You fly in the path of the radar signal and the operator suddenly sees a hostile fighter, not a civil airliner. Once the missile is fired, the fighter veers away leaving the 777 in it's path.
So either way Ukraine is responsible. My guess is Russia had proof of this tactic being used, or pictures of Obama in a pink tutu.
No the key is why did they divert that plane into a warzone where the rebels had proven ability to shoot down planes and why was the plane at 32k feet which happens to be just below the ceiling on those Ukrainian jets?
and why was a Ukrainian military jet armed with R60 missiles in a civilian corridor ?
All of the above directly refutes this statement in the US response.
...Ukraine had no anti-aircraft missile system within range of the Malaysian flight at the time it was struck....
Frogfoots count as antiaircraft systems when armed with R60s, yet no mention of these from the US.
There are reports that these fighters were jamming at the time of the strike.
There are also reports of rod like shrapnel on the 777 wreckage more indicative of the R60 rather than the type of shrapnel you'd see from the BUK system.
Agree. BBC is not even questioning the facts. Just Putin, Putin, Putin.
"Mama I'm gonna be your slave, all day long.....all day long.....all day long"
The headline indicates a backroom deal has been met. Expect coverage to drop off, or at least be confined to the victims & families.
You won't need that.
If a plane fired on MH-11 the missile impact damage will be on the back (if radar-guided) or on the wing near the engine (if heat guided).
If it was a SAM then the damage will be to the front.
There is already photographic evidence that it hit the front in the form of a piece of fuselage. It is as conclusive as a photograph can be. Still.... it is only photographic evidence.
This needs to be put to rest. There needs to be a joint investigation team including Malayasia, USA, Russia plus observers from everyone who has a direct interest.
The focus should be on reconstructing what happened in an open way such that everyone can see it if someone is trying to hide something.
This ought to include a cease-fire from both parts of the Ukraine in the area, with a freeze of battlefield positions as they are, guaranteed safe passage for inspectors, guaranteed open access for inspectors.
The inspection will take a while - months I would think. But the families of the fallen deserve to know what happened.
In the meantime it will hopefully give everyone in the two Ukraines an opportunity to take a deep breath and consider whether they pursuing their goals in the best way.
don't hold your breath... it has already been decided that Putin did it. the real test will be whether Germany and France get behind the sanctions. The experts know what happened, even if they won't say publically. So, this is all kabuki theater...
No.
And I don't expect Putin would go for it.
However, it is a litmus test for sincerity.
Only the sincere would agree.
Those who out themselves as insincere instantly lose a lot of credibility.
You happen to have background in mil-int? Or do you just read a lot?
Putin's hand was forced by the US to take Crimea or lose energy exports. What are you talking about "sincerity" for when behind the curtain lurks an evil US dollar cult? The US has been meddling in foreign nations ever since the death of the dollar in 1971. Here they are again. Why TF is the US even talking about Ukraine? Why do they care? We have a fake economic system based on US military backing (or threatening) and this is another situation where energy is the reason for the feud.
You two, go stand in the corner and think about what you've done.
But, mo
ENOUGH, you were both roughhousing around and now look, the cats dead.
But, mom, he st..
I don't care.
Stand in the corner until your dad gets home, it was his cat.
Way better than bombing cities and shooting down airliners.
This was clearly a fuck-up. Someone blew it, maybe a rookie battery officer eager to make a splash. I don't think either side has their best talent out there since it's obviously nothing but an open-ended killing field. Under those circumstances when you give sharp toys to children, someone gets hurt.
Should be a wake-up call to the world; bunch of idiots are running this shit show.
Plan accordingly.
There's every possibility this was disposal of MH370.
Most likely kiev wanted to shoot a Russian (aeroflot) airliner and then pin blame on Rebels. Kiev mis- idented Ml17 as Russian and vectored it over their missile batteries and lowered its height to ensure the kill. They had a mil jet fly close to ID it as Russian but he only got to 3kms (a long way away for ident!) He saw the general outline -white top and some red and blue markings and said go for it its russian. Kiev Sa11 blasts it. Game over. Kiev did it but thought it was Russian.
"maybe a rookie battery officer eager to make a splash"
perhaps, but that would not explain why everyone onboard was already deceased
They "died" aka were murdered in Diego Garcia.
Maybe it was the same guy who fired that broken tank stuck in the city center a few months ago.
No. There is some connection to the other Malaysian Airlines 777 that "disappeared." The commander on the ground said the bodies on the ground had been dead for a long time? WTF? The two flights are connected and I think it is the same plane that made a detour to Diego Garcia.
"There needs to be a joint investigation team including Malayasia, USA, Russia plus observers from everyone who has a direct interest."
The USA has no direct interest. No USA citizens were involved. it's not a USA plane. The incident occureed on the other isde of the world to the USA.
So why does the USA need to be included in any investigation team? Divine right?
Boeing built the aircraft.
It will be physically impossible to investigate the crash without them.
Do fire marshals go looking for the building architect when investigating a fire? yeah ok...
Watch "Flight TWA 800" on Netflix and you'll comprehend that "investigation" doesn't mean the same thing when the government is doing it. It is an excellent documentary to wake up the sleeping to the corrupt nature of government.
Well, those not double fisting cognitive Ambien, anyway.
In a rational world yes, but sadly not an option for the Nazis now controlling Kiev.
All aspect engagement air to air missiles and surface to air missiles can hit from any angle.
If the SAM battery was on the approach, hit from the front. If a fighter jet was shadowing for a kill, hit from behind. And a missing engine is prescriptive.
I think the anaysis was solid enough for guidance.
gcjohns1971
What sort of fuck-wit are you???
They should stop their war, so that an "offical" investigation can be held into the deaths of less than three hundred people, who strayed into a war zone...???
What???
You are a fucking retard aren't you.
Why the fuck should they care about MH17 - when more than that number of their own people have died and are dying, from shelling and bombing that still continues day after day.
Why should they give a rats arse about a bunch of foreigners?
You have got one giant ego and sense of entitlement and superiority if you imagine for one moment that the people who died in the air are more important than the people who are dying on the ground.
Lets just call the passengers collateral damage instead - and ignore them..
Just like America and Israel and every other big countries does when it kills innocent people "by accident".
There is video showing the right engine on fire as the plane continues to fly until obscured by bushes in front of the camera.
That plane was hit in the engine.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9mUNaaINkw
That is not MH17.
gcjohns
I know we've had some tussels on here...but that's the name of the game.
That aside, I've taken an interest in your posts lately.
I noted what you said about the front of the plane. I've seen it too, but thought more ground impact that direct hit damage.
Have you seen the pictures of the engines?
Those are what lead me to believe A2A....their obliterated state coupled with reports of rod shaped shrapnel in the wing sections above the engine.
It is my understanding...and I may be wrong...but I've read that the Russ A2A r60 type do sort of a shotgun spray of their shrapnel into the target before main impact.
Any thoughts?
Edit: just noticed Coot said something very similar below...I hadn't read down the thread. My bad on that Coot.
I also read somewhere that it acts as a shotgun and peppers the target with lots of pieces of fast moving very hot shrapnel (or something to that effect). Supposedly this should be very easy to confirm with all the wreckage, which should look like a speed limit sign on the a back road near a creek where the kids like to beer-and-bonfire on the weekends ...
Regards,
Cooter
We will never learn the truth until WWIII is over and we are still here
We will never learn the truth until WWIII is over IF we are still here.
If I recall, most all SAM and AA missiles always include a proximity fuse tied to their own onboard terminal guidance. If the missile does not make a direct hit (chaff, flares, evasive manuevers--something a civilian 777 would not be able to do), as soon as the onboard radar senses a shift in the doppler effect of its target (the missile starts passing the target) and will detonate with a giant ring of hypersonic shrapnel shredding everything within close range. So even if the missile does not directly strike the target, the proximity detonation can still do a lot of damage/destruction.
I got to hand it to some of those evil genius weapons designers. They brilliantly solve a lot of tough technical problems, but it is such an evil use of that genius that I could never do it. Sick mother fuckers if you really think about it...
Have you seen Israel's Merkava tanks? Impressive.
Have you seen their Trophy system to stop RPGs? Very impressive.
Have you seen the Russian RPGs that are supposed to be able to defeat active protection??? Me neither. But AFAIK they exist....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RPG-30
Trophy has to demonstrate success against kornets before they worry about RPG30s, unless the IDF wants a repeat of Wadi al Hujeir.
The SA-11 Gadfly SAM is semi-active radar seeking with the target illuminated by the TELAR's radar. The missile has both an electronic (microwave doppler) and optical proximity fuzes. No impact fuzing that I'm aware of - they don't figure it will actually strike the target. 5-10m standoff proximity fuzing puts out enough shrapnel to do the job. Close is close enough.
SA-11s are somewhere around a 35-year-old cold war design.
There is a video of the plane just after it was hit. Right engine on fire, plane flying onward. There was no smoke trail visible.
No, that video is of an Antonov-30 shot down by a MANPAD over Slovyansk. Video posted to LiveLeak on June 6. Not MH-17. See poster above for link.
Great point. NO witness ever saw a missile smoke trail. In videos of MANPAD firings by rebels at Ukie planes, a large smoke trial lasting for many minutes markes the sky. A BUK missile would be huge and NO witness saw one. Also, I read witness reports right afte rthe shoot down and NOBODY saw a missile, They did see two Ukie fighter aircraft right on scene before and after the plane came down.
The solid-fuel rocket motor is incredibly bright and loud as well - it can be heard for miles around as it goes up. I would think the locals would be a little reluctant to rat out the rebels launch site to reporters even if they did see anything.
If it was a Ukranian SAM battery North of Donetsk, then it would be pretty hard to see or hear the launch for someone near the crash site 15 km away. The locals near the Donetsk launch site would be equally reluctant to rat out the Ukranian Army if they launched it.
Absolutely, and as I pointed out days ago. Conspicuously absent on the Youtube footage.
The plane left Amsterdam at 6:15pm. It was shot down between 10:00 and 10:15, when contact was lost. It was night. There would likely be no smoke trail evident at first light some seven hours later.
Not true. Either you are lying or you are mistaken.
The first news about the shot down came out at about 18:00 in Europe. I can't imagine it took almost 24 hours until the information got into the news.
Well finally they are getting the right sources ... Their past sources have been a little weak
The Russians have always used sexy deploys like the ones in front of RT news to distract western males into their evil lair of "reality". Du...like who cares...
Now they come out with factual information and women most western men lust for. They think, just because these facts and rational make perfect sense we will seduced by such lust...no way dude...try again...
What fools. We have our own porn, Fox, CNN, CNBC and Bloomberg.
Take your hard evidence and girls and go home Putin.
America! Learn the rules Russian bitches.
RT female presenters - bah! Check out the hot babes @ PressTV! Burkas FTW!
Maybe someone with a whole lot more knowledge/access than me should now start looking at the short-term speculation that likely occured on FX markets, stock exchanges etc. Just like 911 someone with fore-knowledge likely left a trail.
Call me a cynic but someone made money on this. Don't they always?
Look for the financial "smoking gun". Who needs satellite? Look at who made millions knowing the markets would dip. Connect the dots.
Colin Powell was who briefed reporters.
Mark Sleboda vs BBC presstitute a must watch
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D_CnW4GXIc
http://skibinsky.com/no-russian/
By describing Russia in the same way their maffia in charge of running it wants - you are doing a big disservice to its people that are enslaved through propaganda, violence and lies in Russia. You should visit Russia and make sure that you understand what you are talking about.
& a really funny one with the way they leave out of the picture all the main questions :
* why was this plane flying over this zone at this low altitude ?
* why kiev isn''t releasing its aerian control center recording (that'd explain this rerouting) ?
* since this missile relies on radar to find its target, it also catches plane transponder signal so it cannot be a mistake
Situation normal. New story coming at 5, also unconfirmed.
What a cluster of fuck.
This "backing off" suggests something is happening behind the scenes.
That raving lunatic Cameron was almost calling for a jihad against Russia today. And now it's all just a mistake. Either Vlad had a smoking gun or the Neocons realized the EU wasn't going to follow them into another war.
This tomorrow...
Obama: Upon careful reconsideration and in affirmation with the United Nations policies of self determination ... we have concluded that the citizens of Donetsk and Luhansk regions are best served by become independant nations...
It's like somebody just got a fastball high and tight.
Bat shards everywhere.
Reminds me of.....Syria. Ukraine is a State Dept/Al See Eye Aye Duh operation for the elites. Does Soros own the State Dept now.
Same thing in Syria until Obama's handlers wanted him to launch Tomahawks ASAP. The only problem was Russia had 8 ships between the US Navy and Syria. They had their big Moskava Missile Cruiser on point witrh 16 P-500 Bazalt anti-ship missiles.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P-500_Bazalt
The Joint Chiefs quickly put a stop to any ideas about firing Tomahawks. General Dempsey on a Saturday told Obama to back off. My guess is the Russian military told the US military that they were not going to back down.
Some serious shit must be going on in the background. Even (faux) conservative talk radio has been reading the same script. The people allowing the invasion of America and ***king Americana citizens are the same evil dual-citizen **cks telling everyone it is Putin and Russia's fault. The entire media is owned by Mockingbird, the elites and dual citizens.
I can't disagree with what you say Freddie. The media blackout really is creepy. It is different.
http://www.infowars.com/whistleblower-u-s-satellite-images-show-ukrainia...
Hmmmmm . . .
Dear Mr. President Obama,
I understand that FDR and VDR have been delivered to Malaysian government. You must undertand we made copy of FDR and VDR. Our experts have reviewed this data. Is not good for Youkraine. You will back off this nonesense about sanctions over we get Turkey.
Sincerely,
Vlad
Quite, although whose "mistake" is not yet answered in any sensible fashion. In qany case, could the "mistake be down to flying a SU25 close to the Boeing and spoofing it's id?
Backpedal Hard!
Can't trust London to doctor the boxes!
they cant even walk back the whole morass so they do a partial for now with nothing
Obama needs to be impeached!!!!!
They will just revise the data points later when no one is looking ... works for economics ... why not politics?
Regards,
Cooter
From here it is just one more step to admit that it was Ukrainian forces, from inside "rebel" territory, that made that honest mistake, and were too embarrassed to admit it.
Absolutely... just one simple step away.
Talk about suddenly jamming the fucking brakes on after all that hard work by the MSM to vilify the Russians. These fuckers had ALL the information they needed to come to this same conclusion (if it is true) 5 fucking days ago.
My guess is that Putin had an ace or two up his sleeve and was going to wait for Obama to take the bait before he played it and then they suddenly got a case of cold sweats and runny stools when thinking about how they were going to hang for this "false flag" and maybe others.
Interesting days ahead... we still need a thorough investigation.
runny stools when thinking about how they were going to hang for this "false flag"
Fucking beautiful....
But as we all know they will not hang......Obama Rancho Mirage!!!
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/obamas-buy-swanky-calif-home-re...
They're hoping that within a month the whole story will go down the Memory Hole.
Since the US public has the attention span of an ADHD gnat, that's probably a good bet.
Then they can play the blame game again in the next round. The sheeple never catch on.
More likely we are seeing a grand bargain play out.
Russia gets a copy of the FDR and VDR.
Russia tells US what they found.
US asks "how much is this going to cost?"
Russia gives a wise and diplomatic answer, "Butt out of Ukraine, stop the nonesense about the shootdown, and we take Turkey for the trouble you have caused."
This is just like the Keystone Cops! But with sound !
Don't know whether to Laugh or Cry!!!
I'll see your Keystone Cops and raise you a Chinese Fire Drill... And it's well past time to laugh or cry, it's time to be mad as hell...
Cry, baby, cry.
It was so obvious right from the start that Russia wasn't involved...because no scanning radar was used. Question is, why give the rebels SAMs without the necessary radar? Was it a Cossack operation run on the cheap with deniability? The stupidity of that scenario invites incredulity. The truly interesting thing is why the MSM and our uber-laid back prez were so primed to switch to bellicosity.