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Deadbeat Nation: A Shocking 77 Million Americans Face Debt Collectors

Tyler Durden's picture




 

We have been warning for years that as a result of the Fed's disastrous policies, America's middle class is being disintegrated and US adults are surviving only thanks to insurmountable debtloads. But not even we had an appreciation of how serious the problem truly was. We now know, and it is a shocker: according to new research by the Urban Institute, about 77 million Americans have a debt in collections.

The breakdown by region:

As the Washington Post reports, that amounts to 35 percent of consumers with credit files or data reported to a major credit bureau, according to the study released Tuesday by the Urban Institute and Encore Capital Group's Consumer Credit Research Institute. "It’s a stunning number," said Caroline Ratcliffe, senior fellow at the Urban Institute and author of the report. "And it threads through nearly all communities."

More:

The report analyzed 2013 credit data from TransUnion to calculate how many Americans were falling behind on their bills. It looked at how many people had non-mortgage bills, such as credit card bills, child support payments and medical bills, that are so past due that the account has since been closed and placed in collections.

 

Researchers relied on a random sample of 7 million people with data reported to the credit bureaus in 2013 to estimate what share of the 220 million Americans with credit files have debts in collection. About 22 million low-income adults who did not have credit files were not represented in the study.

While we understand why someone owing tens if not hundreds of thousands can just do what the US government does so well, and simply decide to stop paying their debt (if unlike the government, without the option to roll it), what is scary is that there are people who are in collection on amount as tiny as $25.

The debts sent to collections ranged from $25 on the low end and to more than $125,000 on the high end. Many consumers were burned for relatively small amounts -- about 10 percent of the debts were smaller than $125, Ratcliffe says. But the median debt, $1,350, is still pretty substantial, she adds.

The geographic breakdown is not surprising, headed by the state that hosts Las Vegas, where an unprecedented 47% of all consumers have debt in some stage of collection.

Nevada was hit the hardest, with 47 percent of consumers with a credit file showing a debt in collections -- a mark researchers said may stem from the housing crisis when people struggling to keep up with their mortgage payments may have fallen behind on other financial obligations.

It's not just Nevada. It's, well, everywhere else too:

In 12 states, including the District of Columbia, more than 40 percent of residents with a credit file have a bill in collections. That includes Alabama, Arkansas, Florida, Georgia, Kentucky, Louisiana, Mississippi, New Mexico, North Carolina, South Carolina, Texas, and West Virginia.

But how is it possible that tens of millions of Americans are in such dire straits? After all, banks have been reporting better delinquency data for years. The answer: the study found that the share of people with debt past due, meaning they are at least 30 days late with payment on a non-mortgage debt, was much smaller: 1 in 20 people. That includes people who are late with credit card bills, student loan payments and auto loans. The majority of those people, 79 percent, also had debt in collections. However, because certain bills, such as medical bills and parking tickets, may not show up on a person's credit score until they are sent to collections, the total share of people falling behind on their bills may actually be much higher.

The flowchart:

 

And the breakdown by state: the stunner, again, is that the share of Americans with debt in collections is 7 times greater than those with merely debt past due:

The report's punchline, via AP:

The Urban Institute's Ratcliffe said that stagnant incomes are key to why some parts of the country are struggling to repay their debt.

 

Wages have barely kept up with inflation during the five-year recovery, according to Labor Department figures. And a separate measure by Wells Fargo found that after-tax income fell for the bottom 20 percent of earners during the same period.

But.. recovery? And consumer confidence at 2007 highs? Or did the Conference Board decide to just poll the residents of 15 CPW and 740 Park?

Of course, there is a simple solution to all of the above: instead of being deadbeats, if only these 77 million Americans had BTFD as the the S&P's chief market valuation officer, Janet Yellen and Ben Bernanke before her, had advised them, then the US would truly be a crony capitalist-cum-socialist nirvana by now. Sadly, the way it is right now, the US Department of Truth will have to put this record number of deadbeats out of the labor pool (and hook them to the government handouts machine), while pretending that what once used to be known as the economy, and now is nothing but pure propaganda, is getting "better."

 

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Tue, 07/29/2014 - 10:29 | 5017528 MidwestJester
MidwestJester's picture

So....are the guidance counselors telling kids to become debt collectors in the schools nowadays? Lots o opportunities!

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 10:31 | 5017537 Oh regional Indian
Oh regional Indian's picture

Haaaaaaahhhhhaaa....the news flow is dripping with irony today:

at 10:08 

Consumer Confidence Explodes Higher To October 2007 Highs

at 10:27

Deadbeat Nation: A Shocking 77 Million Americans Face Debt Collectors
Tue, 07/29/2014 - 10:35 | 5017561 SHEEPFUKKER
SHEEPFUKKER's picture

When(if ever) does the national debt go into collections?

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 10:41 | 5017598 Pladizow
Pladizow's picture

All 77mil should default!

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 10:47 | 5017626 hedgeless_horseman
hedgeless_horseman's picture

 

 

Debt is wealth!

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 10:47 | 5017637 MillionDollarBonus_
MillionDollarBonus_'s picture

This is bullshit. The federal government needs to introduce risk free loans for people who are suffocating under this oppresive debt. I'm tired of getting caught out by loans that look good at first but later down the line there turns out to be a massive catch like higher interest payments. I want the government to introduce no-interest loans - no bullshit, just easy money.

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 11:32 | 5017804 El Oregonian
El Oregonian's picture

Wimpy: "I will gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today".

Stark: "Great! I'll cook you two and that way I'll have made twice as much in negative sales! I am now twice as unrich, and that is a good thing... I believe?... But hey, I am a very smart man!"

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 11:40 | 5017941 Shocker
Shocker's picture

This recovery is getting to everyone

Daily Layoff / Closing List: http://www.dailyjobcuts.com

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Tue, 07/29/2014 - 11:43 | 5017960 Liberal
Liberal's picture

Can't we raise taxes, create a federal department for the downtrodden, hire all these people and raise the minimum wage to $100/hr?

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 11:49 | 5017976 Headbanger
Headbanger's picture

STARVE THE BEAST!

It's the only way to end this fucking farce of an "economy" and a "government"!

 

But here comes a major war and a pandemic to kill us off too!

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 12:02 | 5018060 El Vaquero
El Vaquero's picture

Yes, I hope more of these people start fighting the shit in court.  There are so many debt collection lawsuits in this country that it would collapse the system if people simply fought their cases.  As it stands people either agree to a stipulated judgment (equivalent of a guilty plea) or they don't respond to the complaint and get a default judgment against them.  I fought mine and won without an attorney.  Then I got sent back to collections.  But after dealing with attorney debt collectors, dealing with normal debt collectors was a cakewalk.

 

The problem is not that people are deadbeats.  The problem is the debt is money system itself.  It is corrupt, coerecive and unsustainable.  But people are conditioned to "pay their debts."  Fuck that shit.

 

Starve the beast indeed. 

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 12:25 | 5018154 q99x2
q99x2's picture

I'm entitled to my debt.

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 12:31 | 5018176 dontgoforit
dontgoforit's picture

What an ass this Cali democrap is.  This is typical 'lawyer' type handling of any question: deflect, detract and defer the answer.  Never any truth out of these people.  And they consider themselves 'wise.'  My dog is smarter.  Jan should have punched his lights out when he said, 'Get the fuck outta here.'

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 13:14 | 5018381 svayambhu108
svayambhu108's picture

They don't face debt collectors they are taken from behind by debt collectors, there's a subtile difference

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 14:37 | 5018861 CheapBastard
CheapBastard's picture

 Discount stores are slowly dying. 

Yesterday, Dollar Tree announced it would buy Family Dollar, a chain that is in the process of closing hundreds of stores and firing workers. 

Other discount stores have been struggling as well, writes Heidi Moore at The Guardian. Fashion discounter Loehmann's filed for bankruptcy, while  Wal-Mart's sales have declined for the past five quarters. 

"There’s just not enough money deployed by American families to keep all the discount chains in business," Moore writes. 

 

Full grim story:

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/americas-poorest-shoppers-putting-discount...

 

I'm guessing the Michigan Confidence peeples did not 'survey' these folks.

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 12:32 | 5018174 Skateboarder
Skateboarder's picture

The number I heard quoted often was that collections on average gets ~7 cents to the dollar. A friend of mine once told me, "just call up the people and say you know they're only gonna get 7 cents to the dollar anyway, so might as well make a deal and take my offer of 10 cents to the dollar." And they do. ;-)

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 12:41 | 5018214 El Vaquero
El Vaquero's picture

That depends on the creditor.  I don't know about today, but when I was fighting my shit, Capitol One would not deal.  They wanted the full amount.  I watched a grandmother get screwed in the courtroom by Capitol One after she had tried to settle with them and interacted with a lot of people who just wanted shit to go away and CapOne wouldn't deal.  Then you got to the Junk Debt Buyers (JDB.)  Those crooked fucks could almost always be beaten pro se if the person simply challeneged their standing.  Banker records are bad enough.  JDB records suck ass.  They would often settle with people for 10 or 15 cents on the dollar if a person pushed hard enough. 

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 12:53 | 5018281 Skateboarder
Skateboarder's picture

I hear you on how it was before. These days, and going forward, you have two 'industries' that need to be fed for the Ponzi to survive, and will compete with each other. One one hand, you have the collections side, where each node in the heirarchy from creditor to collector, is trying to maximize its 'revenue.' On the other hand, you will have the popo and the gub trying to throw you in jail for nonpayment, whether it will be the original amount or the collections one. It seems plausible to expect many a new law on the handling/enforcement/collection of personal debt in the near future.

Regardless of the step-by-step outcomes at any point, we are all led along the path of most profit to Hidden Hand Criminal Holdings Inc.

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 12:57 | 5018302 El Vaquero
El Vaquero's picture

Fortunatly, the legal proceedings are handled at the state level, not federal.  Some states suck ass and others are fair to debitors.  When shit goes sidways for the banks, it'll happen faster than laws can get passed.

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 13:45 | 5018570 ajax
ajax's picture

 

 

On November 8, 2012, Scott Reynolds Nelson delivered a Banner Lecture entitled A Nation of Deadbeats: An Uncommon History of America's Financial Disasters. Pundits will argue that the 2008 financial crisis was the first crash in American history driven by consumer debt. But Scott Nelson demonstrates in his new book, A Nation of Deadbeats: An Uncommon History of America's Financial Disasters, that consumer debt has underpinned almost every major financial panic in the nation’s history. In each case, the chain of banks, brokers, moneylenders, and insurance companies that separated borrowers and lenders made it impossible to distinguish good loans from bad. Bound up in this history are stories of national banks funded by smugglers, fistfights in Congress over the gold standard, America's early dependence on British bankers, and how presidential campaigns were forged in controversies over private debt. Scott Reynolds Nelson is the Leslie and Naomi Legum Professor of History at the College of William and Mary.(Introduction by Paul Levengood)

http://vimeo.com/62187967

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 12:59 | 5018311 Georgia_Boy
Georgia_Boy's picture

I think a lot of the people sent to collections for small amounts are there for money they don't really owe. I was sent by U-Haul when they screwed up a credit card charge. They didn't even send me a warning letter beforehand, I just started getting several vulture calls a day out of the blue and that's the first I heard that U-Haul had a problem. (Don't ever use fucking U-Haul, I also got a truck that broke down a different time.)

When the customer service seriously sucks, it can take weeks to get them to fix even a simple problem. Or what if it's a fly by night operation that went bankrupt? Good luck getting that fixed. By the way, never use U-Haul, did I mention that yet?

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 13:05 | 5018343 El Vaquero
El Vaquero's picture

To most people, debt collector calls are stressful.  To those who know the FDCPA, they are an opportunity to make money.

Wed, 07/30/2014 - 02:48 | 5021430 SF beatnik
SF beatnik's picture

I've felt that since Reagan's dereg, corporations have been given a lot of slack. Now big corps almost have to routinely screw little guys just to compete. 

Case in point, my former car insurer sent me bills long after I had paid fully and canceled at policy expiration.  They then sent threatening letters.

I sent a threatening letter back and lo and behold, they send me a "refund" check. (WTF?) 

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 12:22 | 5018145 Abitdodgie
Abitdodgie's picture

"Irony "  we could stop world war 3 and bring down the nazi Gov't in about a week , if we the people would just stop paying taxes, but you wont , why? , fucked if I know.

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 12:27 | 5018158 El Vaquero
El Vaquero's picture

Because not enough people will do it to overwhelm the system.  If you don't, when push comes to shove, men with guns will be sent to take your shit and throw you in a cage.

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 12:34 | 5018184 dontgoforit
dontgoforit's picture

O-Peach-Me would love it if we did that.  It would be the thing he'd need to declare himself emperor for life and turn the dogs of war loose on the American public.  However, our taxes are paid by our employers before we even see our paychecks so you'd basically have to get them to do it, which they won't.

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 12:54 | 5018284 El Vaquero
El Vaquero's picture

If enough people did it, government pensions would be exposed for the sham that they really are.  The people that whatever sitting president would send out would suddenly be exposed to the fact that the government is going to screw them over too.

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 12:28 | 5018160 tonyw
tonyw's picture

and yet we can still send billions to bring down foreign governments, help poor israle bomb gaza, have hundreds more foreign bases than any other country...

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 13:55 | 5018630 Seek_Truth
Seek_Truth's picture

"STARVE THE BEAST!"

Yeah, I see that sentiment alot on ZH.

What are you personally doing to "Starve the Beast?", eh?

Here's what I've done for over a decade:

-no debts

--no loans

---no credit

----save up for every purchase

-----but used, trustworthy vehicles, never new.

------get out of Corporate America, go 1099

-------grow your own food

--------learn to trap, hunt and fish

--------learn survival skills and practice them regularly

---------Boycott companies that keep TPTB in power.

----------get right with God, on a long enough timeline...

Bottom line:

typing slogans on a computer = easy (makes no difference).

Actually starving the beast = requires determination, sticking to the plan (makes a difference).

If everyone repeating that mantra actually lived by it, TPTB would come crashing down.


Tue, 07/29/2014 - 15:19 | 5019074 dontgoforit
dontgoforit's picture

So, is that Con-Ed or Pacific Gas & Electric you're using and is that a Dell, dude, or a Toshiba laptop?

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 15:30 | 5019145 Seek_Truth
Seek_Truth's picture

There are things that are within our power to change immediately.

There are others that take longer.

It's not black or white, it's shades of grey.

What are you doing to bring about change?

Other than typing asinine retorts to actual efforts?

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 12:02 | 5018062 PT
PT's picture

Meet the people who buy lots of stuff. What? You can't afford stuff?  Prices too high?  You need to get competitive.  Or you can borrow some money.  he he he

Sure they'll go broke, but we'll find someones to replace 'em ...

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 12:30 | 5018165 max2205
max2205's picture

So if half default completely then shtf

 

Thia seems very misleading

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 12:11 | 5018096 PT
PT's picture

Re "The debts sent to collections ranged from $25 on the low end and to more than $125,000 on the high end" :

No debt collections above $125 grand.  Those guys use Ponzi Finance:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyman_Minsky

Minsky argued that a key mechanism that pushes an economy towards a crisis is the accumulation of debt by the non-government sector. He identified three types of borrowers that contribute to the accumulation of insolvent debt: hedge borrowers, speculative borrowers, and Ponzi borrowers.

The "hedge borrower" can make debt payments (covering interest and principal) from current cash flows from investments. For the "speculative borrower", the cash flow from investments can service the debt, i.e., cover the interest due, but the borrower must regularly roll over, or re-borrow, the principal. The "Ponzi borrower" (named for Charles Ponzi, see also Ponzi scheme) borrows based on the belief that the appreciation of the value of the asset will be sufficient to refinance the debt but could not make sufficient payments on interest or principal with the cash flow from investments; only the appreciating asset value can keep the Ponzi borrower afloat.

But only the amateurs worry about debt.  The professionals CYNK everything into a LOCO IPO.

 

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 12:35 | 5018192 PT
PT's picture

But it's all okay because the banks are allowed to lend as much money as they like to whoever they like because that's what freedom is about and banks need to be de-regulated and free and if someone borrows too much money then they are an evil scum and it's all their fault and not the banks' fault even if the bank lends them more money at a later date because everyone deserves a second chance and because banks would never lend too much money because then they would go broke and no capitalist would deliberately go broke because then the bank would get taken over by a bigger bank and the banksters might get laid off or they might just keep their bonuses and keep working in the new company and anyway banks would never lend bucketloads of money to idiots who would inflate prices beyond sustainable levels because then the bigger bank would become Too Big Too Fail and then it would never go bankrupt and it would continually get bailed out by the givmint and then it would push the whole world economy to its knees because who cares at least the bankers still get their bonuses and that is all that matters because between the time they lent the money and the time they sold the piece of debt paper or got bailed out they were taking on risk and we need to reward risk-takers because no-one takes on risk anymore well hell how could anyone possibly take on risk when prices are so high already?

And you should have mercy on the bankster who killed his parents because now he is an orphan.

 

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 12:38 | 5018195 Ignatius
Ignatius's picture

MDB:  "I'm tired of getting caught out by loans that look good at first but later down the line there turns out to be a massive catch like..." repayment.

You're slipping, MDB.  Not like you to miss the target, much less the barn.

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 12:42 | 5018218 Badabing
Badabing's picture

MDB is that you?
Did you get a frontal lobotomy?
You got more up votes than down!

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 16:02 | 5019338 caShOnlY
caShOnlY's picture

I want the government to introduce no-interest loans - no bullshit, just easy money.

That, my friend, is how John F Kennedy found heaven. You'd best be damn careful as to what you are saying.  The "FIRM" has eyes and ears everywhere.

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 11:11 | 5017757 GetZeeGold
GetZeeGold's picture

 

 

Pete's gettin upset!

 

Turns out my grandkids are trillionaires.....I'm gonna go give them the good news.

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 11:12 | 5017777 dontgoforit
dontgoforit's picture

This would be the 47% Romney took such a hosing over.  "Truth?   You can't handle the truth!" 

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 12:01 | 5018055 highly debtful
highly debtful's picture

HH, I took the trouble of watching this thing until the end, but believe me, it wasn't easy. WTF?! If these are the guys representing/running your country, please explain to me how anyone in the world is still paying attention to the US.

At 1:09 with his ..."I'll say this slowly, okay..."-line, I started dreaming of pitch forks and lamp posts.

What a dumb sanctimonious asshole.

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 18:09 | 5019804 Psquared
Psquared's picture

What an arrogant condescending human being.

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 10:49 | 5017630 MillionDollarBonus_
MillionDollarBonus_'s picture

Just introduce no-BS government loans already! It's BULLSHIT that I can't buy the things that I want when other people can get much more

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 10:52 | 5017655 Rainman
Rainman's picture

Get with the program ... join the race to the bottom and drive that FICO to zero !! It's only a number.

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 11:47 | 5017986 DaveyJones
DaveyJones's picture

it's like old age, it's only a number. I'm sure it can go on forever

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 12:00 | 5018053 Manthong
Manthong's picture

It's only a problem if you need credit..

like a downwardly displaced former middle class member or student who did not understand the scam.

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 12:18 | 5018132 PT
PT's picture

When you can't get credit, you have a problem.  When no-one can get credit, the banksters have a problem so then they just lend out the money anyway and go crying to the givmint and claim TBTF status and get bailed out and then they just lend anyway even though they know full well that they'll never be repaid by the debtor but they'll be bailed out by the givmint instead and then you still have problems but the bankster no longer has a problem and so everything is safely swept under the rug.  As long as the bankster bonuses are safe, everything's gonna be all right.

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 12:37 | 5018194 dontgoforit
dontgoforit's picture

What I've always told my kids, "Money only matters when you don't have any."

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 15:40 | 5019189 SmackDaddy
SmackDaddy's picture

For most of the people I know, money matters big time.  The exceptions being the folks at the exteme ends of the income scale.  Money doesnt matter to those at the top because they have a shit load of it.  But likewise, it doesnt matter to those at the bottom- hell they ran out a long time ago and have nothing to fear thanks to Daddy Gov...

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 12:31 | 5018172 robertocarlos
robertocarlos's picture

I'm still not sure if I want to become the oldest person alive or not.

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 10:57 | 5017688 Save_America1st
Save_America1st's picture

If you want to join the FSA you have to swim the Rio Grande and climb the fence.  Helps if you mule for a drug cartel as well.  Drag some homeless Guatemalan children across the border with you for extra-extra free shit bonus points.  Border patrol will make you a sandwhich, change all your diapers and give you new tighty-whiteys before you get your free bus tickets to anywhere you want to squat in America.  It just gets better for you after that.  You'll be livin' the high-life in no time with credit card offers and as much debt as you can choke down with your EBT free food each day.

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 12:03 | 5018063 thamnosma
thamnosma's picture

I signed up for the FSA and they sent me to Syria...

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 12:18 | 5018135 Grinder74
Grinder74's picture

You said that already.  Why don't you spread the wealth of your million dollar bonus?

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 10:58 | 5017680 HardAssets
HardAssets's picture

Debt JUBILEE Baby !

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jubilee_(Christianity)

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 13:34 | 5018487 p00k1e
p00k1e's picture

What's the inverse of a debt jubilee?  Recall, people living back in X-ian times only aged to 35 or so and hip replacements weren't needed - Jesus was the cure-all. 

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 18:36 | 5019892 SilverDOG
SilverDOG's picture

Pladizow

 

Why the HELL NOT !

Soon enough USA will mirror; Yugoslavia, Argentina,

Greece this century, Spain etc etc.

Default ! you stupid ass slaves.

Default ! I dare say.

 

 

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 10:42 | 5017601 john39
john39's picture

life on planet usury...  where the chains are now vitual.  Remember when usury was a mortal sin? yeah, somehow they lobbied and got that little issue fixed so that we could all be "modern".  progress, right?:

http://realcurrencies.wordpress.com/2013/01/17/meet-the-real-deal-michae...

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 11:16 | 5017791 dontgoforit
dontgoforit's picture

I've worked pretty hard to get the credit that allows me two new cars and a home and $1 million on my credit cards - if I were stupid enough to use it.  I hate that folks have lost jobs - I do; I've lost several myself; however, if there were no credit, most of us would be walking and living under bridges.  Credit is not a bad thing - it's how easy it is to get that gets people in trouble.

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 11:21 | 5017819 john39
john39's picture

an economy based on debt (as the "currency") has only one destination.  It inevitably places wealth in the hands of the few, and the masses in poverty.   This is by design.   We can only speculate how people might behave, and how the world economy might look, if unburdened by the money changers and their debt slavery scheme.

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 11:53 | 5018009 DaveyJones
DaveyJones's picture

money is also just a marker, a marker for real things. As the real things get scarcer and the population gets larger, the expanding credit economies and the expanding debts do more and more damage and become less and less accurate at measuring anything economic.

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 13:00 | 5018322 Decolat
Decolat's picture

'As the real things get scarcer and the population gets larger...'

 

And THAT pretty much sums up the root cause of everything we bitch about on ZH.

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 11:31 | 5017875 RaceToTheBottom
RaceToTheBottom's picture

Depends on how close you are to the Government tit: that is what drives the question of how much debt is prudent.

If you are a bankster of your job is guaranteed for life (in real life, not just in your mind), your ability to pay off debt is easier than if you have real world risk in your life.

 

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 11:35 | 5017907 dontgoforit
dontgoforit's picture

I worked in the private sector all my life until recently.  With the grace of God, education and hard work, my wife and I provided for our kids and ourselves.  We have never welched on a deal - ever.  We always paid what we agreed to pay - even if it cost us a fortune (which it did once).  We have never considered bankruptcy as an option.  My dad, who would have been 98 last week had he made it the past 8 years, told me to do the honorable thing - because without integrity - you have an empty life.  (He did bail my ass out when I was young because I got in credit heaven without a ladder to get down - and I thank him for it even though it was entirely my own fault.)

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 12:31 | 5018173 El Vaquero
El Vaquero's picture

You need to get over that sentiment.  The banks are fucking people and the very design of the system puts people into a position where they won't have a choice on welching on a deal.  People make a lot of dumb decisions and should suffer the consequences of those decisions, but once you understand that the amount of debt must always be greater than the amount of dollars and what that means, you will understand that the system is corrupt and all ethical considerations should be thrown out the window when dealing with the system.

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 12:38 | 5018197 RaceToTheBottom
RaceToTheBottom's picture

Treat them exactly as ethically as our children are being treated.  

When MS defaults on realestate loans while of the government tit, it should tell you where we are...

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 12:43 | 5018224 dontgoforit
dontgoforit's picture

I believe there is a ton of corruption, but I also believe I have a choice whether to sign on that dotted line or not.  If I can't fucking afford it; I can't fucking have it.  When credit is too easy - as in the sub-prime debacle - folks step right into the trap.  Banks don't necessisarily get rich off of stuff like that.  They want the contract consumated and completed as agreed to.  The politicians who said, "Everyone deserves a home of their own," should have been the ones to put their money up to cover that sub-prime shit that was the start of the general malaize we suffer from still.  Clinton, I believe it was.  In any event, people have choices.  I can't believe the number of people who blame someone else for their bad decisions.  Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 12:52 | 5018263 El Vaquero
El Vaquero's picture

I don't believe there is a ton of corruption, I know there is a ton of corruption.  If people stopped taking out credit, the system would collapse.  That leads to predatory relationships and the banks push it.  Debt slavery is a necessity in our system.  Most people do dumb things, but the banks are corrupt to the core.  Unless you are geriatric, you will be faced with a decision between ethics and survival in your lifetime, and it all goes back to an unethical and unsustainable system of currency requiring continual growth on a finite planet.

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 13:43 | 5018555 NickVegas
NickVegas's picture

The banks create the "clown bux" out of thin air, and lend it at usury. They have taken the noble sentiment of fair trade, and perverted it for their own purposes. That is why the system continues. Ask yourself, where did the bank get this money to lend? No one works for the money created, only you work, to pay it back. It is slavery. Gold, silver, and platinum can not be created by fiat. Get it, fiat currency, perverted fair trade. It breaks societies, but that is by design.

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 21:47 | 5020727 Seek_Truth
Seek_Truth's picture

Dontgoforit:

Did you ever take the time to read a credit line or loan agreement? It is a mutual agreement with "outs" for both parties.

There is nothing dishonorable about not paying an unsecured debt as long as it adheres to the language in the agreement.

An attorney would make you smart on the issue of unsecured debt in one 1 hour or less session.

Perhaps you should learn a thing or two before gratuitously patting yourself on the back.

You haven't defaulted- yet!

There's still time pal.

Then you'll be singing a different tune.

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 12:43 | 5018226 Steaming_Wookie_Doo
Steaming_Wookie_Doo's picture

I applaud you for doing the right things. Unfortunately now we have a culture (if you can call it that) that is literally oriented towards the most consumption w/o much regard for how much it's producing that's pro-survival and valuable. Ever since I saw Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous as a kid in the 80s, I knew we were headed for doom-- getting people to "covet thy neighbors goodies". "Easy money" is slavery with a velvet lined handcuff--and with the dumbing down of a large swath of the populace, they won't know it until it's far too late. Of course, those doling out the easy money themselves will receive bailouts since they're too important and well-connected to fail. 

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 11:46 | 5017972 Dingleberry
Dingleberry's picture

No, credit did not allow survival.  

Credit CAUSED those economic problems that caused people to live under a bridge, namely price inflation and market distortions that cause the economic problems you claim credit can ameliorate. Google student loan bubble, housing bubble, stock bubble (margin), derivatives, etc. 

If productivity, inflation and sound money were common knowledge to the unwashed and sound practice, we would not need anywhere near the credit we do in order to live, let alone survive.

No matter, as credit (like everything else) eventually runs out or ceases to have its desired effect. We are increasingly seeing this with QE (a form of corporate credit) and its lack of effectiveness in e.g. housing.

For those of you who understand this...reserve your underpass spot now. 

 

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 12:13 | 5018114 dontgoforit
dontgoforit's picture

I guess I kind of see it as a 'guns don't kill people - people kill people' kind of issue.  Just because the credit is there doesn't mean you have to use it.  I've got several guns but I've yet pulled one on another human being.  I've got credit and with it I've been able to do things I otherwise would still be waiting to do because it would have taken my entire lifetime to have saved that much money.

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 12:39 | 5018208 sessinpo
sessinpo's picture

dontgoforit    I've got credit and with it I've been able to do things I otherwise would still be waiting to do because it would have taken my entire lifetime to have saved that much money.

----

I am with you and understand your point. You are talking about being responsible for oneself and the use of credit. However, your statement is not logical.

If it would take you a lifetime to save enough money for something, buying it on credit doesn't make it cheaper. You are now paying back with interest. Thus it will take you an entire lifetime plus interest.

The true answer is: if you can't afford it, do without. Life isn't fair but that is life and hard for most people to swallow.

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 12:49 | 5018252 dontgoforit
dontgoforit's picture

Sessinpo - I'm not arguing that it makes it cheaper, I'm saying credit makes it possible.  If there's a 'good' side to credit it is that people can buy a home or a car.  Yes we pay more than the item would cost if we paid cash, but if you're not among the 1% chances are you would never have the house or the car.  I agree to pay the 3% interest on the house; and 1.9% on the cars.  When Jimmy Carter was POTUS we paid 13% on the house.  Soon, we will have paid these things off and there will only be taxes and insurance.  So for the last 35 years, we had nice homes and nice cars.  But, we also had employment.  This generation is being cheated out of the work they so badly need.

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 13:45 | 5018574 sessinpo
sessinpo's picture

dontgoforit   Sessinpo - I'm not arguing that it makes it cheaper, I'm saying credit makes it possible.  If there's a 'good' side to credit it is that people can buy a home or a car.  Yes we pay more than the item would cost if we paid cash, but if you're not among the 1% chances are you would never have the house or the car.  I agree to pay the 3% interest on the house; and 1.9% on the cars.  When Jimmy Carter was POTUS we paid 13% on the house.  Soon, we will have paid these things off and there will only be taxes and insurance.  So for the last 35 years, we had nice homes and nice cars.  But, we also had employment.  This generation is being cheated out of the work they so badly need.

----

But that isn't mathematically logical. An item that takes a lifetime to save for is not worth putting on credit. You said it would take a lifetime to save for such things. Maybe you were exagerating to make a point and that would be a way out. Notice the words I put in bold of your statement. You wouldn't be able to pay these things off if it really took a lifetime to save for just the principle. I don't know. Since I don't really know you, I have to take you at your word with what you post. Thus I pick apart statements that don't make sense. But I think you have the right meaning and just posted a message that wasn't as clear as you wanted.

Generally for most people, a home is the largest expense they put on credit. Even in that case, if they are prudent with their income and pay down their debt as quickly as possible, it isn't a lifetime. So, I think I know what you mean.

Thank you for your kind response.

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 14:08 | 5018706 DontGive
DontGive's picture

Seems both of you 'tards arguing over the same thing. Credit is like a knife, it can cut both ways.

We got dudes on the cotton field who are pushing 70 years old with $100k in credit cards and nothing else to show for it, seems like the older generation bought consumerism hook line and sinker. We can only hope the offspring will get a clue before it's too late. But then I guess when you live in a basement and your parents money runs out it might change, not that this up and coming generation will have a clue how the financial whiplash will conclude with them having less opportunity (as far as less well paying cotton fields around these days unless you suck dick for the government).

There is a 3 part BBC show floating around, the resourceful here will find it: The Men Who Made Us Spend - http://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2014/jun/28/men-who-made-us-spen...

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 14:58 | 5018957 sessinpo
sessinpo's picture

DontGive   Seems both of you 'tards arguing over the same thing. Credit is like a knife, it can cut both ways.

We got dudes on the cotton field who are pushing 70 years old with $100k in credit cards and nothing else to show for it, seems like the older generation bought consumerism hook line and sinker. We can only hope the offspring will get a clue before it's too late. But then I guess when you live in a basement and your parents money runs out it might change, not that this up and coming generation will have a clue how the financial whiplash will conclude with them having less opportunity (as far as less well paying cotton fields around these days unless you suck dick for the government).

There is a 3 part BBC show floating around, the resourceful here will find it: The Men Who Made Us Spend - http://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2014/jun/28/men-who-made-us-spen...

----

It seems the only tard is you considering your post. I and dontgoforit were having a cordial discussion without getting into name calling such as you. We are well aware of people living in basements. Our discussion is about self responsibility which may mean NOT HAVING CREDIT CARDS and GETTING INTO DEBT, or at least using credit responsibly.

No one forces you to take credit. That is a life choice. For example, I have no credit cards and refuse them when offered. I may not have as much to show for that action in terms of material items. But I also don't have that debt.

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 12:40 | 5018211 Dingleberry
Dingleberry's picture

No, you MUST use far more credit now (compared to wages) if you want to go to college, buy an over-priced home, or over-priced SUV.

Wages have not kept up with inflation nor productivity. The reason: the Fed.

Used to be 10 year mortgages, even mortgage burning parties (when is the last time you heard of that?), 4 year max car loans (now loan restrictions would put dealers out of business, including the re-emergence of subprime), and you cold actually work your way thru public college.

Not any more. This si due to inflation, caused by easy credit, and whether you participate or not, you (or someone you know) are affected by the inflated price.

This is not to excuse stupid consumer behavior. Many use credit properly. But obviously, that is the exception, not the rule. And rules were in place to protect everyone. Now all are effected, whether you play the game or not. Before we entered this high-speed world of easy money (starting in the 70s), life was not so hard economically and prices were not insane like they are now.  

There is no going back. Easy, cheap money is here to stay indefinitely.

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 15:34 | 5019163 sessinpo
sessinpo's picture

Dingleberry   And rules were in place to protect everyone. Now all are effected, whether you play the game or not.

----

And here you see the real problem with a statement and don't realize it.

Rules to protect people only causes people to act irresponsibly and get into more trouble. And Government creates that. If there were no protections, less people would act so irresponsibly and the ones that do act irresponsibly would pay for it instead of pushing that off to the rest of us.

Those that play with bankers will get burned by bankers.

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 13:00 | 5018325 El Vaquero
El Vaquero's picture

Guns don't wither away from a lack of pulling them on people.  Our banking system will collapse if credit is not issued.  Big, big difference.

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 12:17 | 5018126 El Vaquero
El Vaquero's picture

Prices would be unbelievably different without a debt-is-money system.  Our system has created distortions so great that it is near impossible to imagine what it would be like without most dollars in existence being merely entries on a ledger.  Fractional reserve banking - where that credit comes from - is unsustainable and unstable.

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 12:50 | 5018262 dontgoforit
dontgoforit's picture

Politicians have wasted the surplus that made the U.S. a great country.  Hopefully we can turn this around before it's too late.

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 13:01 | 5018327 El Vaquero
El Vaquero's picture

We won't, and the surpluses are gone.

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 15:41 | 5019199 sessinpo
sessinpo's picture

dontgoforit   Politicians have wasted the surplus that made the U.S. a great country.  Hopefully we can turn this around before it's too late.

---

That is not a correct statement. There were never surpluses.

If you have a budget of 50K but have accumulated 100k in debt, just because one year you have 55k in income doesn't mean you have a 5k surplus. You still have debt that exceeds your income. That is bad economic theory and needs to corrected and stopped right here.

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 12:49 | 5018258 PT
PT's picture

dontgoforit:  I agree that there is good debt and bad debt, the difference being that good debt pays for itself - what Minsky called hedge borrowing.  As for bad debt, bad debt allows idiots to buy stuff that they otherwise could not afford at prices that they could not otherwise afford.  You think you're smart by saving and paying cash, only to be outbid by an idiot who pushed up prices by borrowing.  The idiot goes broke next week, his toys are repossessed, but next week you are outbid by another idiot.

"Success" at this stage of the game relies on sitting on the fine line between Ponzi debt and the Minsky moment.  Clever?  Or lucky?  No, the winner is the guy with the most accommodating bankster.

How to buy the world:  Start a business, sell cheaper than everyone else.  Offer finance to any customer who is breathing.  Don't worry about profit, worry about market share.  As long as a bankster continues to bail you out you can undercut the competition, drive the competition broke, buy the competition, repeat till you have bought everything and owe it all to your bankster.

There is a real problem when earnt money has to compete with borrowed money.  Borrowed money wins.  Earnt money starves.

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 13:00 | 5018319 Zerozen
Zerozen's picture

Ok so in a nutshell, good debt = used to finance stable/cash-flowing investment

Bad debt = used for consumption

 

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 13:26 | 5018442 PT
PT's picture

I was well into my thirties before I realised that "good debt" existed.  Basically, if you only earn $100 per week but, by buying a machine for $10000 dollars, you could make $1000 per week, you'd be mad to save and pay cash.  You have to save for 100 weeks or else borrow and the machine pays for itself in ten weeks (plus interest - don't forget interest!!!)  By borrowing money, you save yourself 90 weeks (minus interest) and in 100 weeks time, you are ahead by $900* 90 week = $81000 ( minus whatever interest ).

Hate to repeat myself in the same thread but I really like this description:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyman_Minsky

He identified three types of borrowers that contribute to the accumulation of insolvent debt: hedge borrowers, speculative borrowers, and Ponzi borrowers.

The "hedge borrower" can make debt payments (covering interest and principal) from current cash flows from investments. For the "speculative borrower", the cash flow from investments can service the debt, i.e., cover the interest due, but the borrower must regularly roll over, or re-borrow, the principal. The "Ponzi borrower" (named for Charles Ponzi, see also Ponzi scheme) borrows based on the belief that the appreciation of the value of the asset will be sufficient to refinance the debt but could not make sufficient payments on interest or principal with the cash flow from investments; only the appreciating asset value can keep the Ponzi borrower afloat.

I've seen a company that actively promotes Ponzi finance, as described above.  Their attitude:  Negative gearing and don't bother paying your short fall.  If your asset's value appreciates by 10% and your debt increases by 5%, you're still 5% ahead so you're laughing.  I don't know how they survived 2008.  It might have something to do with their "never sell" attitude.  What's that phrase again, "extend and pretend"?  Maybe they have good "valuers". 

Next time you can't afford to buy something, think about this.  They are your competitors.

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 17:50 | 5019729 Seek_Truth
Seek_Truth's picture

"I was well into my thirties before I realised..."

What kind of machine? An automobile?

No matter:

Have you factored in depreciation? No?

Have you factored in the time value of money? Didn't think so.

Maintenance? Of course not.

The only kind of machine that works given your "math" is a money-printing machine.

Your last name is Yellen, amiright?

Wed, 07/30/2014 - 06:51 | 5021667 PT
PT's picture

?????????  Yes, my numbers were simplified and exaggerated in order to emphasize a point.

But lemme guess.  In your neck of the woods, every single company you know of saves their profits and pays cash for everything and no-one borrows money for anything - not for houses, auto-robots, silicon chip manufacturing plants, gold mines, oil wells, roads, electrical infrastructure - all paid for in cash they saved and put in the bank.  Is that your problem?????????

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 13:20 | 5018418 Canoe Driver
Canoe Driver's picture

What a moron u r if u can't see that the prices of cars, homes, vacations etc are all several times higher than they could be without the general availability of credit. U only need the credit because it exists, genius.

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 13:59 | 5018652 Seek_Truth
Seek_Truth's picture

" however, if there were no credit, most of us would be walking and living under bridges.  Credit is not a bad thing - it's how easy it is to get that gets people in trouble."

A bald faced lie.

Credit is a very bad thing.

When you lose your job and your investments go south, you'll find out.

Never take a loan, credit, etc.

Save up for what you need, and you'll soon find out how many of your "needs" are wants.

It's people like you that keep TPTB in power.

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 11:19 | 5017815 813kml
813kml's picture

The rules of religion are fungible depending on the need for guilt and manipulation.

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 14:01 | 5018658 Seek_Truth
Seek_Truth's picture

Not all religion.

But yeah, the vast majority.

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 10:45 | 5017619 nink
nink's picture

Here is how it works. 1) get everyone in debt 2) lock people up for being in debt 3) now increase profits because you have a free labor force who are cheaper than Ethiopia

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 11:56 | 5018028 ultra_knight
ultra_knight's picture

If it stops at it you must say thank god.

What if interest rate rises and force everybody to default... so that all these millionaires can buy everything damn cheaper.

Ah... has it happened before yes, 1929 great depression...

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 10:48 | 5017642 pods
pods's picture

Right after it stops functioning as our money supply.  With countries trying now to sidestep the USD, should be a couple more years of agony.

pods

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 11:01 | 5017718 SubjectivObject
SubjectivObject's picture

You ... you sunshine pumping troll you!

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 11:29 | 5017864 pods
pods's picture

I've watched enough National Geographic to come to the realization that the baby Thompson's gazelle is not going to escape inevitability.

pods

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 12:12 | 5018111 Monty Burns
Monty Burns's picture

When(if ever) does the national debt go into collections?

A question I keep asking myself. (Shakin' ma haid...)

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 10:39 | 5017585 mastersnark
mastersnark's picture

My consumer confidence is up as I'm choosing not to face my collectors

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 12:30 | 5018163 tvdog
tvdog's picture

Hear, hear. Defaulted on my credit cards years ago, never looked back. Had a trucking company thinking they were going to charge me $30/month for the rest of my life, defaulted on that too.

Can I be a bankster now?

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 10:57 | 5017696 Theta_Burn
Theta_Burn's picture

Fucking A that Santelli was right...deadbeats

All time highs in confidence, the S&P, recovery, and preditory lending be damned. while conviction rates for the criminality of it all at all time lows..

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 14:16 | 5018727 Jack Burton
Jack Burton's picture

Yes, pretty fucking funny. The dupes have record confidence while they are in record debt! You know who we can blame for this type of thinking? I blame the useless brain washing that has replaced a public school education and the media. Meida is not about reporting news, it is about shaping news to fit the government and corporate agenda. We have had, since 2008, a media working overtime to sell a recovery mind set to people. "We are in the 5th year of a recovery" and shit like that. "Record stock prices show the recovery has taken root." All the media do is take orders from the Federal Government, the Security Agencies and the major financial and corporate players. Take CNN, FOX, MSNBC, FOX Business, Bloomberg etc. etc. Do economic research using the internet and various search functions, then tuen on video media like TV. Two totally different worlds. Education and Media are just two sides of a brainwashing coin. The record debt equals high confidence for the consumer proves this point better than any argument I can make.

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 10:33 | 5017546 101 years and c...
101 years and counting's picture

Nope.  Guidance counselors (sponsored by your local Chase) are the ones handing out credit cards to 15 year old to buy new iPads.

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 10:37 | 5017575 williambanzai7
williambanzai7's picture

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 10:39 | 5017587 SHEEPFUKKER
SHEEPFUKKER's picture

So....are the guidance counselors telling kids to become debt collectors in the schools nowadays? Lots o opportunities!

 

Sure, but they have to go into debt first to pay for the education. 

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 11:14 | 5017788 Agent P
Agent P's picture

LOL.  I just pictured a debt collector placing a call and the phone in the next cubicle starts ringing.

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 11:18 | 5017803 dontgoforit
dontgoforit's picture

Or he's calling his wife and doesn't realize it.

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 11:30 | 5017871 pods
pods's picture

Hey, Grammy, we have to talk about something.

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 10:47 | 5017627 lester1
lester1's picture

Looks like the Confederate states have a debt problem... Pay your bills you deadbeats !!

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 11:00 | 5017711 saints51
saints51's picture

Fuck no. Its our way of getting back at the Yanks for violating our state rights. All part of our plan.

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 11:03 | 5017723 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

On a per capita basis, that's not what I see (who really wants to live in Atlanta anyway).

 

That aside, owe the bank $100, that's your problem.  Owe the bank $1,000,000,000, then it becomes the banks problem.

Good luck with that debt collection in Texas (home of central air command and a lot of oil/natgas).

At the end of the day all economies are local and when fraud is the status quo, possession is the only "law" that matters.

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 12:14 | 5018121 Monty Burns
Monty Burns's picture

I have a sneaking suspicion that a certain demographic in those states explains the numbers.

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 12:18 | 5018130 dontgoforit
dontgoforit's picture

So did Germany; WWl reparations - enter Adolf.  Who will enter next?

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 13:11 | 5018366 Zwelgje
Zwelgje's picture

Hillary. 

Now where the phuk did I leave my space ship?

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 11:56 | 5018026 junction
junction's picture

Besides debt collector, another growth industry is shylocking, the payday advance loanshark industry.  To please his bankster cronies, The Man From Kenya can authorize through Yellen the use of fists and bats to collect overdue debts.  

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 14:40 | 5018872 FeralSerf
FeralSerf's picture

SWAT teams should be very effective. Their equivalent in the Mafia were effective at debt collection too.

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 14:36 | 5018856 Freddie
Freddie's picture

Hairy Reid's Nevada shithole is almost at 50% and at #1!   Vegas needs eBola to help fill those casinos.

America needs more illegal aliens to help Amerikans pay off their debts.

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 21:25 | 5020630 Seek_Truth
Seek_Truth's picture

Here's a peek at Guidance Counselors at work:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4h-wVe9a6rQ

Wed, 07/30/2014 - 13:59 | 5023391 Idaho potato head
Idaho potato head's picture

So....are the guidance counselors telling kids to become debt collectors in the schools nowadays? Lots o opportunities!

Their life expectancy would be about the same as a mayfly.

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 10:31 | 5017541 Sudden Debt
Sudden Debt's picture

do they have to pay taxes? I thought they only got refunds...

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 10:34 | 5017555 hedgeless_horseman
hedgeless_horseman's picture

 

 

 

The tax offenders include employees of the U.S. Senate who help write the laws imposed on everyone else. They owe $2.1 million. Workers in the House of Representatives owe $8.5 million, Department of Education employees owe $4.3 million and over at Homeland Security, 4,697 workers owe about $37 million. Active duty military members owe more than $100 million.

The Treasury Department, where Obama nominee Tim Geithner had to pay up $42,000 in his own back taxes before being confirmed as secretary, has 1,181 other employees with delinquent taxes totaling $9.3 million.

As usual, the Postal Service, with more than 600,000 workers, has the most offenders (25,640), who also owe the most -- almost $270 million. Veterans Affairs has 11,659 workers owing the IRS $151 million while the Energy Department that was so quick to dish out more than $500 million to the Solyndra folks has 322 employees owing $5 million.

The country's chief law enforcement agency, the Department of Justice, has 2,069 employees who are nearly $17 million behind in taxes. Like Operation Fast and Furious, Attorney General Eric Holder has apparently missed them too.

http://news.investors.com/politics-andrew-malcolm/012612-599002-obama-wh...

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 10:38 | 5017581 Chupacabra-322
Chupacabra-322's picture

I'm sure the now well Armed Criminal IRS will collect on those back taxes & late fees.

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 10:43 | 5017612 Beam Me Up Scotty
Beam Me Up Scotty's picture

Tell HR to garnish their wages.....

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 12:20 | 5018140 dontgoforit
dontgoforit's picture

They've got lots of hollow pts now.

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 10:37 | 5017571 Chupacabra-322
Chupacabra-322's picture

Ask scum Fuck Criminal Tim Geitner, I'm sure he knows a lot about not paying taxes.

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 14:47 | 5018901 Freddie
Freddie's picture

The Military Industrial Complex boys are tax cheats.  Who knew?

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 11:22 | 5017826 813kml
813kml's picture

White House staff are essential employees, boots don't lick themselves.

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 10:31 | 5017535 Sudden Debt
Sudden Debt's picture

and this all Obama is doing about it.... :

http://youtu.be/sxR-0L51JKk

 

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 10:32 | 5017538 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

To be quite honest, printing money and handing it out to a relative few regardless of the actual real value these individuals provide society is not a solid foundation for a monetary system.

Full faith and credit...

tick tock motherfuckers...

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 10:46 | 5017629 N0TME
N0TME's picture

You do know what "full faith and credit" actually means right? I really hope so.

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 10:55 | 5017675 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

Of course.  It's a fiat world after all, has been for quite some time.

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 11:18 | 5017811 HardAssets
HardAssets's picture

In actuality, of course, Everyone is in debt.

Fiat currency is a debt instrument of the Federal Reserve which they create out of thin air. Taking an overall view, the only way that interest can be paid on that debt is by constantly creating more currency with which to pay it. It is an inherently inflationary system which steals from the majority and provides plunder for the few.

The book 'They Own It All, Including You - Through Toxic Currency' is a good one to check out.

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 11:23 | 5017830 jarana
jarana's picture

FIAT = let [it] be [whatever] (fiat lux = let it be light).

All currencies are FIAT (including gold). But some are less manipulable than others (among other desirable properties from a currency one might expect) and some are FREELY chosen by individuals and others are imposed by others.

I hoard a little amount of gold (i wish it would be larger), but behind any economic transaction, there is human labor (which "value" cannot be objectively stipulated as Marxists think, as "value" is subjective).

Probably all you know this. But being this subject the ultimate cause of this whole charade, better to be as precisse as one could.

No offense, and critics welcome.

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 11:42 | 5017956 insanelysane
insanelysane's picture

Full faith and credit translates to we have jack booted thugs that will get cash or assets from someone to pay this debt regardless of who incurred said debt.

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 12:34 | 5018186 tvdog
tvdog's picture

What happens to jackbooted thugs that go into debt?

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 22:13 | 5019667 HardAssets
HardAssets's picture

'fiat' means by decree or command. Gold is Not fiat; people didn't have to be ordered to want it. (See economist Murray Rothbard on the origins of money.)

There is a difference between money and 'currency'. Banknotes, in their legitimate use, are nothing but a convenient substitute for real money. If a currency can't readily be exchanged -straight across - for real money, it isn't a legitimate currency. Gold certificates & silver certificates were legitimate. 'Federal' reserve notes are not.
Currently, as generally used - 'credit' is neither real money or currency. 'Credit' is made up out of nothing but computer keystrokes - a complete fiction. (J.P. Morgan himself said gold is money and nothing else.)

It's amusing to read the statements of Boy Scout/ Dudley DooRight types. One wonders if they would feel obligated to pay back a 'loan' provided by a counterfeiter They obviously have much to learn about the true nature of money, banking, and credit. People's ignorance and long time conditioning are used to make them slaves. As said in the 'Matrix' movie - it is a prison for your mind.

Check out the five videos in the Hidden Secrets of Money series by Michael Maloney (links to the videos are in the middle of the webpage):

http://hiddensecretsofmoney.com

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 10:31 | 5017539 QQQBall
QQQBall's picture

77 million - is that alot?

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 10:37 | 5017572 Amish Hacker
Amish Hacker's picture

Rupert thinks so.

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 10:56 | 5017689 Grouchy-Bear
Grouchy-Bear's picture

Not in China...

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 14:32 | 5018829 Ratscam
Ratscam's picture

WTF? Did Christine Lagarde come up with that study. Again two sevens.

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 10:32 | 5017544 Ignatius
Ignatius's picture

Get it out of our fucking heads that this US society is about creating healthy, complete people.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.......

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 10:33 | 5017547 homiegot
homiegot's picture

That's about how many are on welfare.

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 10:46 | 5017633 SHEEPFUKKER
SHEEPFUKKER's picture

There would be some double counts in there, no?

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 10:33 | 5017548 Sardonicus
Sardonicus's picture

Probably Blankfein and Co have a plan to securitize uncollectable debt.  Rated AAA+++

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 10:44 | 5017614 john39
john39's picture

and sell it (in the form of retirement funds and plans) to the very people who owe the debt.  makes perfect sense.

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 10:35 | 5017553 Boomberg
Boomberg's picture

In the true spirit of being an American, what debt collection companies can I invest in to profit from this opportunity? Is there an ETF? I will be buying on margin.

Tue, 07/29/2014 - 11:21 | 5017822 dontgoforit
dontgoforit's picture

Just remember the 'blood and turnip' thingy.

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