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Russia And Germany Allegedly Working On Secret "Gas For Land" Deal
While many were amused by this photo of Putin and Merkel during the world cup final showing Europe's two most important leaders siding side by side, some were more curious by just what the two were scheming:
Thanks to the Independent, we may know the answer, and it is a doozy, because according to some it is nothing shy of a sequel to the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact: allegedly Germany and Russia have been working on a secret plan to broker a peaceful solution to end international tensions over the Ukraine, one which would negotiate to trade Crimea's sovereignty for guarantees on energy security and trade. The Independent reveals that the peace plan, being worked on by both Angela Merkel and Vladimir Putin, "hinges on two main ambitions: stabilising the borders of Ukraine and providing the financially troubled country with a strong economic boost, particularly a new energy agreement ensuring security of gas supplies."
Amusingly, this comes on the day when the WSJ leads with "On Hold: Merkel Gives Putin a Blunt Message. Germany's Backing of Russia Sanctions Marks Breach in Pivotal European Relationship" in which we read that " Angela Merkel spoke to Russian President Vladimir Putin for at least the 30th time since the Ukraine crisis erupted. She had a blunt message, according to people briefed on the phone conversation: Call me if you have progress to report in defusing the conflict. That was July 20. The two leaders haven't spoken since."
They may or may not have spoken since, but it is not because Putin has "no progress to report" - it's because the two leaders have come to a secret agreement which will hardly make Ukraine, or most of Europe, not to mention the UN, happy as it requires that Crimea be permanently handed over to Russia in exchange for Russian gas, which has been cut off for a month now due to non-payment by Kiev.
Here is how the deal came to happen:
Sources close to the secret negotiations claim that the first part of the stabilisation plan requires Russia to withdraw its financial and military support for the various pro-separatist groups operating in eastern Ukraine. As part of any such agreement, the region would be allowed some devolved powers.
At the same time, the Ukrainian President would agree not to apply to join Nato. In return, President Putin would not seek to block or interfere with the Ukraine’s new trade relations with the European Union under a pact signed a few weeks ago.
Second, the Ukraine would be offered a new long-term agreement with Russia’s Gazprom, the giant gas supplier, for future gas supplies and pricing. At present, there is no gas deal in place; Ukraine’s gas supplies are running low and are likely to run out before this winter, which would spell economic and social ruin for the country.
As part of the deal, Russia would compensate Ukraine with a billion-dollar financial package for the loss of the rent it used to pay for stationing its fleets in the Crimea and at the port of Sevastopol on the Black Sea until Crimea voted for independence in March.
To be sure, in the aftermath of the MH-17 shooting, which in light of this revelation would clearly not benefit Russia, negotiations have stalled they are expected to restart once the investigation has taken place. “It is in everyone’s interests to do a deal. Hopefully, talks will be revived if a satisfactory outcome can be reached to investigations now taking place as to the causes of the MH17 catastrophe."
But while Germany can't wait to put the Ukraine conflict behind it and restore normal Russian relations (see Adidas' record plunge earlier today, blamed on the Ukraine conflict) others are far more eager to stir the pot some more: "A spokesman for the Foreign and Commonwealth Office said they had no knowledge of such negotiations taking place. However, the spokesman said he thought it highly unlikely that either the US or UK would agree to recognising Russian control over Crimea. There was no one available at the German embassy’s press office yesterday."
Which, of course, goes back to the fundamental question behind the Eurozone experiment: just who calls the shots. And despite what the UK (and certainly France) believe, that one person was and continues to be Merkel. And at the end of the day, pragmatic Germany knows that for all the posturing and rhetoric, the biggest loser from a western embargo of Russia (which is now actively shifting its attention to China and now India) would be Germany itself.
[S]trong trade ties between the two countries have also served to strengthen Ms Merkel’s hand and the Russian speaker has emerged as the leading advocate of closer relations between the EU and Russia. “This is Merkel’s deal. She has been dealing direct with President Putin on this. She needs to solve the dispute because it’s in no one’s interest to have tension in the Ukraine or to have Russia out in the cold. No one wants another Cold War,” said one insider close to the negotiations.
Some of Germany’s biggest companies have big operations in Russia, which is now one of Europe’s biggest car markets, while many of its small to medium companies are also expanding into the country. Although Russia now provides EU countries with a third of their gas supplies through pipelines crossing the Ukraine, Germany has its own bilateral gas pipeline direct to Russia making it less vulnerable than other European countries.
However, Russia is still the EU’s third-biggest trading partner with cross-border trade of $460bn (£272bn) last year, and the latest sanctions being introduced by the EU towards Russian individuals and banks will hurt European countries more than any other – particularly Germany, but also the City of London.
Curiously, if there is one entity that could scuttle the deal it is, no surprise there, the US.
Central to the negotiations over any new gas deal with Gazprom is understood to be one of Ukraine’s wealthiest businessmen, the gas broker, Dmitry Firtash. Mr Firtash – who negotiated the first big gas deal between the Ukraine and Russia between 2006 and 2009 – is now living in Vienna fighting extradition charges from the Americans. But he has close relations with the Russian and Ukrainian leaders – he supported Mr Poroschenko – and has been acting as a go-between behind the scenes at the highest levels.
Incidentally, the same Americans which over the past 2 years has been desperate to start a regional war in any one part of the globe in order to break some more windows and boost GDP courtesy of the tried and true "Military Industrial Complex" GDP boost. Which is why if indeed the Ukraine peace process is in the arms of the US, then perhaps Putin's advisor was spot on when he said that "There is a war coming in Europe." Compliments of the United States?
Finally, for those wondering how much of the Independent's story is a fabrication, here is Germany denying it all:
- GERMANY: REPORT OF SECRET DEAL ON UKRAINE `TOTALLY UNFOUNDED'
Which, if Jean-Claude Juncker is any indication, seals it.
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Shocking just shocking.... LOL It will cost them more than just Crimea by the way. In return Ukraine gets more IMF (read US) funding.
Can't see the US going along with this. Peace in Ukraine!!!!!!!!
Hmm.. well, did they agree to split Poland again?
yeah,..." it was a secret".......fixed it for you...this is the third place ive seen this so far this morn.....
Ummm... OT but why are the markets flashing red?
/s
my money's on the guy with the 'stasch.
A Nazi-Soviet Pact
On 23 August, 1939, the world was shocked when, suddenly, Russia and Germany signed a 'Non-aggression Pact'.
People would have been even more shocked if they had known at the time that, in addition, the two countries had made a number of a 'secret protocol' agreeing 'spheres of influence' in Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania and Poland. It amounted to an agreement to invade and divide the countries of eastern Europe between them ... with Poland first on the list.
http://www.johndclare.net/RoadtoWWII8.htm
it's not that they didn't speak for so long because of any disagreements. It's because they had to go back to using typewriters, invisible ink, and cloned carrier pigeons for communicating with each other now that they know the NSA and CIA are up everyone's asses over there with spy bugs.
That shit takes time but it's safer these days.
When it gets serious, you lie.
-J.C.Junker
"A Nazi-Soviet Pact."
After 3Q of a century, in linear time, you'd think this was in the past..,
But they say we have this thinge called vertical time,
thingies are stacked, as in the deck is stacked, no?
.
My dear western friends I don't want to ruin all your excitement, but lets think for just a second. This article is completely irrelevant... Crimea is russias to stay, do you really think putin will hand it back over to Nazi Ukraine to turn into donbass 2.0???!!! Hell no, he would lose all his respect at him and there would be a hell of a lot of bloodshed when right sector and nazgvardia will go there to set up their rule... Never gonna happen and Germany needs gas either way... So this article is nonsense, Russia needs no approval, and crimea will never want to go back, it would be a humanitarian catastrophe worse then do bass.. Crimea would march on Kiev and the war would be even worse. Plus the Russian fleet is there... Germany does not have that much sway, and Russia does not need its aproval. Think logically my western friends.
Bingo Right on the button All Germany wants is gas and full access to Russian markets. Screw Europe. They hide behind WWII disarmament in providing military personnel to any world stabilization conflict (but they will gladly sell you lots of systems, weapons and ammunition). Yes, Crimea is gone (you forgot to mention all the off-shore gas potential Russia snapped up). I still believe the EU will have to pay the gas bill and without NATO, Russia can come back in a year destabilizing Ukraine (and other countries in the same manner). And lastly, MH17, SORRY
Absolutely. I was going to write this, but you beat me to it. Crimea is Russia's (as is meet) and is going to stay that way, short of invasion by a power able to take it away. The point of this silly article is to make it sound as though Russia must "cough up" some concessions to ratify what has already been ratified. The article assumes the West's right--and ability--to make or break any deal based on its own "approval." The West arguably has lost the ability, and fewer and fewer fair observers grant the alleged "right".
'happy as it requires that Crimea be permanently handed over to Russia in exchange for Russian gas, which has been cut off for a month now due to non-payment by Kiev.'
WTF are you talking about. Read the article.
Russia and Germany have to kill Strelkov first. Else, US will have a recovery after another devastating war in Europe...
Makes sense. Germany and Russia cutting a deal to solve an European problem, while excluding the USSA. Germany gets access to Asia,Russia has peace on it's borders, the USSA, which has nothing to offer other than violence, hatred and Gaza like conditions for Europe, gets cut out of the deal. Good solution.
just wait until Germany announces that it's leaving the Euro to use it's own currency again and will join the trade agreements with Russia and China and maybe even the BRICS alliance.
Tapping one more of the last few nails to go into the USSA's coffin full of dying, worthless, fiat paper.
ooooh....and then there's this new one from Jim Willie:
The Gold Crime Out of the Gate Forces Development of the Eastern Gold Trade Standardhttp://www.silverdoctors.com/jim-willie-the-gold-crime-out-of-the-gate-forces-development-of-the-eastern-gold-trade-standard/
excerpt:
Refusal to Repatriate German gold was a crime out of the gate. The motive was to conceal the appropriation (re-hypothecation) of German official gold accounts. The Germans are on notice of gold thefts by their own allies. Germany will work with the Eastern superpowers to develop a USDollar alternative and a Gold Trade Standard.
The United States has given the world two choices: war to defend the USDollar, versus work with Eastern Alliance toward the Gold Standard.
The motive for actions taken are clearly in defense of the King Dollar Regime. The responses taken are clearly to reinstate the Gold Trade Standard and no longer deal with a toxic USDollar for trade and banking. The unintended consequences are uniform if not universal.
The outcome will be to develop the Eastern Gold Trade Standard while the entire Western system crumbles, deteriorates, sinks, and implodes.
It is interesting that Putin is fluent in German, (speaking closely to Merkel in the picture)
While Obomber has an elementary understanding of Bahasa Indonesia, attributed to his time in Indonesia as a child. He has demonstrated this in both interviews and speeches - notably the 2011 address he gave to the University of Indonesia.
I guess Obama can close a deal with His excellency Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono, President of Indonesia, as long as it is a short deal while Putin and Merkel bang out something more substantial.
Merkel is fluent in Russian as well.
Putin is fluent in German because he lived and trained with the KGB in East Berlin back in the day...so they get along just fine with each other apparently.
Gee, and what are those foreign languages that obama speaks?
Oh yeah...Arabic and Teleprompter with a side of ebonics for some street cred with the bruhthuhs
Jive?
what it is, Jack (jive) what it be, Jack (ebonics)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXSLcYQHqFQ&feature=player_detailpage
In Russia second language courses are mandatory in secondary school starting in grade 3-5 and running through grade 12. They only become optional at university level. Most schools offer 2 options: English and German. Closer to WW2 it was popular to study German. Nowdays English gets the preference because of the internet and due to wider career prospects.
Pre-war, French was predominant, but nowdays most public schools don't even offer it.
Economic ties dictate which languages Russian kids acquire. The way things are going, soon they'll probably be learning Chinese.
As for Putin - him being fluent in German is nothing special. Half the Russian population speaks the language.
We have a saying in Russia:
An optimist learns English, a pessimist learns Chinese, and a realist learns how to use Kalashnikov -)))))
My favorite clip in "Thank You For Smoking".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvkAGrrHdIo&feature=youtu.be&t=2m21s
He was in Dresden not East Berlin
I still don't like Merkel. She has got to go. Chick/Dude has done nothing so far for German interests. She should of asked the USA to leave its bases in Germany a looong time ago - the USA has been eavesdropping and stealing German technology for decades. The Russians left but the Americans never did. She also needs to ditch the dollar.
Merkel does not have guts. She is just a puppet.
Dr. Jim Willie said the other night in an interview that he has heard through his sources that Merkle may step down. He said it sounds bizarre but she just won her elections or held enough seats.
German businesses rule the roost and they are tired of the USA BS with the Ukraine. My guess is Adidas bad earnings have not helped.
Willie is a nice guy - but please forget about his "sources".
Merkel doesn't make decisions. the Guelph family on behalf of the Jesuits passes the intructions down to the Rothschilds in the city of London and they pass the orders on to Brussels at the UN and then to Germany. Germany is only allowed moderate control of Europe or their own destiny. Bear in mind that are many publications and links which designate Merkel as Hitler's daughter through the Clausberg frozen sperm experiments, (which I do not write off).
I have a grudging respect for Merkel, but logic and reason compel me to agree with the general consensus here.
The NSA has penetrated the German government completely. They have been monitoring Merkel's every call and text (and likely internet use, messages, and e-mail) for almost a decade. She can be blackmailed politically, and has ceased to be able to act independently for German interests.
Unfortunately, she is completely compromised and is useless to the German people.
Bottom line, she is damaged goods.
While Obama thinks Austrian is a language. And of course that His Empire is made up of 57 states.
I wasn't aware of that. Most "Ossies" I know who were forced to study Russian in school seem to have little memory of the langauge.
wake up son, now that they conquered europe, are they going to just leave?
Whilst Ribbetrop was in Moscow talking to Molotov the British and French were also there under Admiral the Hon. Sir Reginald Aylmer Ranfurly Plunkett-Ernle-Erle-Drax, KCB, DSO, JP, DL - but they could not cut a deal so Molotov walked from one room to the other and signed up with Ribbentrop.
I doubt the protocols were secret as they were effected a few months later and validated by Spencer-Churchill and FDR at Yalta
Then (after Germany and the USSR invaded) Britain and France declared war on Germany and after that became allies of the USSR. Strange....
That little Hitler stash. In high school, I would take my trusty black plastic comb, and make em laugh like hell.
He went and ruined that option for everybody. I've seen every conceivable fucking stupid tattoo,horns,bolts through eyelids, tackle box faced, chicken hair in multicolor, you name it weird shit a human can do to their body.
But I have yet to see one son of a bitch wearing a Hitler mustache.
Even Charlie Manson, with a swashtiker on forehead hasn't tried,ha!
Old news is old.
WSJ gleefully reports today that, courtesy of the MH17 disaster, all such talks are on ice:
If it's coming from the WSJ, a zionist rag, assume the opposite. They are very worried.
I don't know about the 'Zionist' part, but agree that WSJ is safe to ignore.
I find it very hard to even guess at why you would think the Wall Street Journal is not a zionist rag.
I hold WSJ in low regard based on content. 'Zionism' is meaningless to me except to the extent that it's one of many flavors of self-aggrandizing gobbledygook used to manipulate large numbers of the mind-enslaved.
Next day, German Chancellor Merkel received a package from President Putin. Inside the package there was a group of time-lined photos and a tape recording of the flight deck crew from the Black Box on ML 017. In the taped recording one could hear
Pilot: What the hell – the right engine has just blown
First Officer: I think we can make it that air strip we saw 20 miles behind us
Pilot: ML017 to Ukraine flight control – we’ve just lost our starboard engine, making 180 degree turning decent and we’ll make an emergency landing 20 miles in front of us. No decompression at this time.
Ukraine flight control: I wouldn’t do that if I were you
Pilot: what did you say Ukraine control, it sounded like you <hissssssss>
Ukraine flight control: Tally Ho
There was a note penned to the group of photos. It stated "From Russia with Love, Vlad".
Residents of Donbass saw Ukrainian military aircraft near MH-17, but Western mainstream media totally ignored that fact.
Right. And there is the precedent (the Israeli's used it to bomb Iraq's nuclear project over twenty years ago) of military jets "hiding" behind a large commercial airliner to avoid radar detection. Not to mention the possibility that the military jets were hoping to draw a missile attack in such a way that the missile's own guidance system would "lock onto" the larger and far less maneuverable airliner.
Then there is the photo of the wrckage, which seems to clearly show multiple projectile holes in the fore areas of the fuselage--round holes, not made by shrapnel from a nearby explosion. Maybe made by 30 mm cannon. If so, the airliner may have been SHOT DOWN by military aircraft, and not by a missile (whether surface-to-air or air-to-air) at all. Fact is, we don't know, and the only thing we know for sure is that we are being lied to by the authorities.
hedgeless_horseman
A very nice warning from history, let's hope that any deal between Merkel an Putin would be more benign...
Actually, if I am reading this "deal" correctly, it may be a nice move on Merkel's part, stabilizing things there in Ukraine (and in Europe as a whole). Maybe Angela is a clever leader who may keep Europe from jumping off the rails.
It almost has to be Germany to broker a deal, the USA has lost its credibility with Putin, and France & the UK don't matter...
Only view that makes sense to me.
She denied it, so it's true. However, I don't think there is enough in it for Russia. Try again Angie, say in 3 months... Everybody and his dog is in vacation right now, anyway.
Russia maintains its pipeline, its clientele and its seaport, lays groundwork for more trade, and steers clear of the webs and snares of war-starved debt-trafficking psychopaths. How is that not bullish?
Exactly. Maybe not bullish for the stockmarket, but surely for the economy. Hopefully the one will reflect the other again after the USD collapse
Well, Russia already has its pipelines (independent of the Ukrainean ones), its clientele (even if changed) and its seaport. If Germans feel they can trade around Russia and ignore its market, more power to them. I seem to remember though that recently, the increasingly mercantilistic German economy came under fire from within EU of all places. Beside the fact that they seem to offer very little, the Germans might realize that trying to stop the current Ukrainean policy and state of affairs is easier said that done.
They also traffic in drugs using NATO bases for shipments.
u wont say uk no matter
Hilarious HH. Good observation.
Progressive fears, Fredo's Death
Well, at least when Britain and France declared war on Germany, but not Russia, for invading poland, after all the carnage, they damn well made sure that the Polish people breathed the sweet breath of liberty.
The first one ended well..............................
The true facts
·
Hitler had no desire to have a war with Stalin's USSR
·
Stalin and Hitler both invaded Poland but Stalin did it a week later. Both Nazi and Soviet had a combined victory parade following the completion of Poland war
·
The Barbarossa (the plan by Nazi to invade USSR) was originated in Set 1940 after
o
Stalin invaded Romania who supplied most of Germany oil
o
Stalin violated the Pact by invading Finland the second time
o
Stalin has deployed 5.5 million Red army on the German border ready to stick first
o
Stalin has known about Barbarossa but Hitler started first with 220 divisions vs. Stalin's 360. Stalin had 5x times more combat aircrafts and 10x times more tanks but Russian people did not want to fight for sadistic butcher Stalin and his Jewish commissars
·
Stalin's USSR lost 34 million people but won the war
·
Hitler has lost because he was an incompetent fool who prevented his army, first to destroy French-British expeditionary army in 1940 France, and then to stick to the Barbarossa military plan. This illiterate preacher started running the war by himself firing the best and the most capable German generals.
In other word, Stalin has forced Germany to strike first. Nazi Germany did not have a choice. Germany was not ready for a war with USSR. Hitler invaded USSR with 1 million horses as his major transportation means.
Finally, Putin as well as the present Kiev rulers are serving to different and competing groups of Zionist banking oligarchy. They are enemies of their people. This is why Putin is not supporting Rassians living in Ukraine. Puting is a member of Zionist mafia. The same goes for Ukraine President Poroshenko.
That last paragraph is interesting. Can you post any supporting evidence? This stuff is still quite new to me and seems rather uncompelling, but it evidently matters to some people, as I sense that practically the whole world finds itself increasingly at odds with so-called 'Zionists.'
This is very very accurate, and is completely ignored by history. Our (PC) inability to teach history accurately will be our downfall.
Another war in Europe is coming you all, and living in Germany, I can only hope that the Germans and Russians play well with eachother this time.
Imagine German tech with Russian gas and man power.
i think the assumption that germany needs russian resources is false
it is so rich it will always be able to get resources from the market even if the prices shoots up plus russia is quite far
on the other hand, russians need german tech plus it is 21st century, manpower is less and less important
If war comes to Europe I cannot see it being between Germany & Russia. They may or may not be on the same side. But let's be clear, it will be the US against Russia on somebody else's soil as usual, with other countries taking sides. And there can be no doubt in anybody's mind that it is the USG who are marching towards war.
>>>Stalin has forced Germany to strike first. Nazi Germany did not have a choice.
Who knows. Your statement goes against a lot of the received wisdom re WW2.
From what I've read, Hitler spend a fair proportion of his last days in the bunker cursing the evil genius of Neville Chamberlain, who had lured him into starting a war before Germany was ready.
Hitler understood the political realm very well. The military, not so much.
Read Icebreaker.
No, but Alaska, and New Jersey were discussed. Seems no-oe wanted NJ. who
can blame them ?
Well if Putin has an ounce of brains he must realize what the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact lead to.
...a Russian victory over Germany.
Remember, it is the Europeans (including Germany) and Americans that started this little mess in Ukraine when they supported the coup d'état.
Must-read analysis of South Stream Pipeline and its political undertones. Expansion of Russian influence both in the energy markets in general, but also in the Balkans.
US wants to sell fracked American gas (as LNG) to EU, raising prices for everyone in the process, including for Americans. This is all about maximizing profit on the asset (American gas reserves) and resisting the growth of Russian influence.
http://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com/2014/06/06/the-prospects-for-the-sou...
German industrial interests (real Nazi's) and Russian Checkists, partners in Oligarchy since 1910.
Long Russian Blue cats, and maniacal laugh lessons.
russia should also impose personal sanctions on Germany for whole world to see who is realy Mr.Merkel
Ukraine is lobbing SS-21 ballistic missiles at targets very near the Russian border. Russia has proptly taken them out with it's S-400s. It's been all over the news, hasn't it?
The SS-21 can be equipped with a conventional high-explosive warhead or a chemical, biological or tactical nuclear warhead. Yeah, let's lob a few of them towards a nuclear-armed country. What could possibly go wrong?
Crimea for gas? Bullshit - billionaire Ukrainian Jewish oligarchs want war. Russia and U.S./NATO chickenhawks are the willing patsies. Think they're going to let this opportunity simply get negotiated away?
If the U.S. can't be provoked into attacking Russia with a false flag, then Russia will be provoked to invade Ukraine with a false flag. Porky's Stazi can get their hands on all kinds of old Eastern-block chemical weapons and probably a tactical nuke or two. Putin will know he's being provoked, but won't care at that point.
Ukraine is lobbing SS-21 ballistic missiles at targets very near the Russian border. Russia has proptly taken them out with it's S-400.
Source?
CNN,
Reported by CNN's Barbara Starr, who isn't known to offer much of any off-script news. Odd that CNN reported on this at all. They did have an actual scoop* here and recognized the serious implications, but didn't say much after the initial two reports. *An actual scoop in the CNN sense using the usual unnamed government officials or whatever.
OpEd News gave more background on the significance of the rest of MSM letting the story die.
RT on the CNN report with their spin
Juan sitrep at Sakar.
Germany seeks the return of West Prussia and East Prussia and restoration of her pre-1939 border including Danzig and Konigsberg. Russia insists that Ukraine remain firmly within the Russian sphere of influence and no further claims by NATO are acceptable.
>>>Germany seeks... restoration of her pre-1939 border
Very much doubt this. Maybe after another few generations of Ostpolitik. But by then no one will remember, or much care, about who once ruled in Prussia.
German interests will likely end up owning very large chunks of Poland anyway; they just won't have (direct) sovereignty.
yes and the US should return to its 1783 borders
I disagree my overly-spied on friend.
While in what was formerly West Germany has no interest in getting former Ostpreußen back, the desire to recover the "lost territories" is much greater.
If this relationship between Germany and Russia continues to grow, and Poland doubles-down on their "we love the USSA and they will be there to protect us" nonsense, I imagine its only a matter of time before (over the next couple decades) Germany recovers Ostpreußen one way or another.
how many Germans live in East Prussia today? I do remember when West Germany's more conservative politicians were still talking about Silesia, yet at that time there was still a German-speaking population there
this as a big reminder: those "give us our territory back" speeches need... people, not only square miles of historic territory. they are based on the patriotic and nationalistic feeling of having national brethens being mistreated by foreigners, often by language policies
and the number one european nation which still has nationals outside it's borders in the 21st is not Germany. it's Russia. followed by Hungary, btw
meanwhile, one cultural aspect: our American cousins often delve in the WWII past. In Europe, we have a more differentiated WWII memory, actually memories
but we are, practically everywhere, "celebrating", or if you want delving in a different past: that of First World War, because of the centenaries
which many - including me - feel is the more appropriate "template" to judge the current situation. our modern continent resembles in many ways more it's state before WWI than it's state before WWII
and no, this is not a "oh, where is the Archduke Ferdinand moment". the situation is nevertheless quite different
politically, most european countries have a lot of political capital (yes, the one mentioned by Draghi) invested in several pan-european institutions, including the Eurozone and the EU, a situation which resembles more the Concert of Europe after the Congress of Vienna
and the concept of the Concert of Europe was threathened at that time (1820s-1870s) only by the problems around the yet-unformed Germany and Italy
which, as soon they were formed, were embraced with great gusto by the very "nation smiths" Cavour and Bismarck
what is Germany's political and diplomatic stance today? imo Bismarkian. to the core. balance-oriented. a continent of peer nations. engaged in peace and trade
(to all warmongers: take your war trumpets somewhere else and sound them there. if you must, where the sun does not shine. thank you)
I'll respond with this:
re; Germans in former Ostpreußen;
http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/ethnic-germans-in-poland-set-to-vote-in-german-election-a-917864.html
and yes, I definitely agree with you -- our current situation more closely resembles pre WWI than II, but given this;
http://www.buzzfeed.com/bensmith/polish-foreign-minister-we-gave-the-us-a-blowjob-got-nothing
"We are gonna conflict with both Russians and Germans, and we’re going to think that everything is great, because we gave the Americans a blowjob. Suckers. Total suckers."
Re; your political capital -- I would assert that the only reason there is any political capital left, is due to fanatics in the media failing to report the EU's failures as well as its benefits (of which there are many on both sides).
If "EU" media reported on how Target2 works and how its screwing the Northern EMZ nations, or how the competetativeness gap is screwing those in the south, and did so honestly, said political capital would disappear overnight.
See Ghordo, I like you. You defend your project even though the overwhelming amount of macro-financial info out there says it (the EMZ) shouldn't exist, and as said by many EU-kleptocrats -- without the EMZ there is no EU. Thus, you, and the political establishment fall back on the "political capital" or "political desire" to keep it going. If the media portrayed things fairly, and illustrated the bad/defective within the EU with as much zeal and vigor as it does its benefits (of which there are some things) -- then I would conclude, "ok there is enough political capital to keep this going, despite the financial imbalances."
However, given the media here is very one-sided and very pro-EU and pro-EMZ, and fail to report on how truly screwed it is with as much excitement as they do on how great it is -- I am only left to conclude that said political capital is based upon one huge lie/deception. When the people eventually do figure it out (which they most certainly will) the political will, will disappear. Then, if the institution is to survive, the only tools left in the tool box are authoritarianism (e.g., the government acknowledges the public's discontent with the project, but says "we know better than you do.") or brute force.
What do you think about the above?
I somehow missed your quite excellent reply, until Tyler reproposed to read it from this article
Target2? Well, Target2 is a very interesting thing. I have one example for T2. I had an investment in Greece. The revenues from that investment (it was a farm-like business) generated cash, which in the old times would have been Drachmas (I actually had to convert Dollars to Drachmas to buy in, originally), and later were euros
now, because we were paid with bank transfers, we had euros in the Greek banking system, which is under the authority of the Greek national bank
as soon as my partners (mostly Greeks) transferred their balances to German banks, for Target2 this meant that "Greek money" was becoming "German money", and the effect is the Greek T2 balance becomes negative and the German T2 balance becomes positive
now think about that, and you'll realize that as long as we are talking about currency, the Target2 balances are nothing else then an accounting measure that highlights flows among the national banking systems. the "kinks" in the systems are not there, they are in the "credit creation" mechanism, which is not something you can monitor through T2
what T2 does indeed show is how much business in FX banks are losing. if my partners would have had to sell Drachmas and buy German Marks. Leading to the same effects, though through currency markets, instead of inflationary or deflationary pressures inside the same currency zone
ergo, the EUR behaves as gold did, inside the eurozone
meanwhile, I disagree with your "authoritarianism vs public's discontent", while you don't mention how many Germans are discontent with it. in the case of the Greeks, 65% want to keep the EUR
while at the same time across the pond obummer has received valuable tips for improving his short game.
he's shaved three strokes off his usual nine!
so who's really getting the last laugh here?
Gazprom. BRICS. Checkmate.
USSA pissed away its leadership and I am not sure they will have a meaningful say in the matter.
US can still start a war and Europe has no army to speak of.
Well, assuming that the CIA and Mossad are up to the "starting" job.
wrong century. we have enough armies and navies for Russia, which has anyway no plans whatsoever
the Warsaw Pact was a completely different thing, coupled with a completely different ideology
today, the eurozone alone (18 countries) spends twice as much and has more soldiers, planes, tanks and warships than Russia alone
if you count the whole EU (28 countries), it's three times the military spending. after all, it's half a billion people vs 140 million Russians
you can't isolate Russia and at the same time claim it's a horrible, huge threat to all of Europe
it's all about the Russian populations in Ukraine and the Balts. the US could start a war... for which territories again?
forget all this Great War religious thinking. yes, we have conflicts. no, they are not the kindling for a Great War, or a Second Cold War. NOT WITHOUT CHINA
"NOT WITHOUT CHINA"
http://in.reuters.com/article/2014/07/15/brics-summit-bank-idINKBN0FK08620140715
Any figures on that? How many tanks, artillery, aircraft, attack helicopters can Europe deploy? How many submarines and surface units? Most importantly, how many tactical and strategic missiles does Europe have under its command? Finally how many divisions can Europe mobilize and assuming they can, how do European governments intend to stay in power given the guaranteed (very violent) backlash from the population and probably their own military?
i agree. I can tell you exactly what putin and merkel are 'scheming'. they are talking about being tired of being dictated to by the us and obama, and how there is no reason they need to listen to us
I have to agree.
If a secret pact is being negotiated, it is because Germany and Russia are tired of the USA and prefer to work around the obstacles (or tools) that are Obama and Kerry.
Both Vlad and Angie are ex-KGB. All they agreed on is
meeting at 5pm at the corner pub after the war.
Obama...couldn't start a sand castle! A crooked Chicago....teleprompting idiot!
well american imperial army is still a pretty good reason
>>>putin and merkel are... tired of being dictated to by the us and obama
Being dictated to by the US is, up to a point, acceptable to Germany. But being dictated to by a low-information dipshit like Obozo has got to stick in the craw of any intelligent, well-informed world leader.
oh? I remember a predecessor that started by claiming he wanted to bring a humble foreign policy
to quote him: "If we don't stop extending our troops all around the world in nation-building missions, then we're going to have a serious problem coming down the road. And I'm going to prevent that." that was in 2000
After a decade of war, its time to do some nation building here at home.
-- BO
'Merica can always refuse to return Germany's gold... oh wait, they've already done that. Uncle Satan is running out of tricks to keep his empire from crumbling.
Give us a break. We HAVE started giving them their got-damned Gold back. We've given them back 5% already, and will finish the entire thing in 25 years. Of course IBG, YBG... and Merkel WBG...
Edit: OK, 3%... whatever.
I think the Germans are now prepared to do such a deal without us. They are cleaning up the mess Obama and his amateur "fuck the EU" gals started in the Ukraine, after all. The fact that it is being denied makes it far more likely.
At this point, Merkel knows she will get a new president soon. Obama has been nothing but trouble for her. She can live with 2 more years of bad relations with us rather than 2 more years of crisis in Ukraine.
I think it's that simple.
If she doen't cut a deal with putin she will not get re-elected this fall
There won't be any federal elections in Germany in the next years.
What's really amusing is that already, after only 30 days of the gas being cut off, we have a land for gas deal under discussion.
If this had all gone down in December instead of June/July, it would have only taken about 3 days.
Any cut off for EU in general will mean certain defeat at the polls for a lot of politicians. For sure, a shivering and laid-off population won't re-elect current leadership.
Maybe the Nudelfrau was right with her "fuck the EU" transgression. There aint no EU in real life and definitely not in international diplomacy.
In crisis, the US has to deal with nation states, vassals or not . Imperial EU is just a stepping stone to NWO, and as such to be overcome like the murder said in Shakespeare`s plays .
A Clarion call went out this dark day
To reassure every tremblin' heart
That both Biden and Kerry were on their way.
Has Kerry already claimed it was his idea yet?
Merkel will take it and run!!Right into her retirement , towing Germany out of the EU.
"The German Mark is the currency in Germany (DE, DEU). The German Mark is also known as Deutschmark, and Deutsche Mark. The exchange rate for the German Mark was last updated on July 31, 2014 from The International Monetary Fund. The DEM conversion factor has 6 significant digits.
http://coinmill.com/DEM_calculator.html
Gas for land isnt the only thing they're working on with Russia. In his latest Hat Trick Letter, Jim Willie claims that Germany is working on an Eastern Gold Trade Standard, and is set to leave the US/UK and join the BRICS alliance!!
Germany trying to leave the "deceiving West" behind did not work out too well last time around...
According to Nietzsche they are " poor bears believing in forest ghosts and fairies" . East is where they belong.
Being the most gullible tribe on their continent, they could be drawn either way. Needless to say ,the most gullible people on earth on another continent have plenty of Germanic roots.
Ukraine really is going to be the Untied States WATERLOO!! Jim Willie was SPOT ON!!!! United who? Dollar what? reserve currency where?
Beans, bullets, bullion my cadets - the fun is just about to start.
Screw land, I want gold.
your in luck its on sale today
But is it a monkey hammer sale? ;-)
Yeah but you can't eat gold.
I will gladly accept gold for anything in our cupboard.
Which is why I'll take land. I know how to work it. If I need nothing to survive and have what you need to survive, either you use force, or I have the strong hand when it comes to negotiating trade.
Government can take land during marshal law and you cant hide land
When it gets to that point, there won't be much of a functioning government. The fate of the US government and the US dollar are one in the same. Besides, our current agricultural paradigm is unsustainable. Who is going to produce the food when that becomes apparent if not people like me? Any would be soldier/JBT has got to eat.
the federal goverment does not have to do anything, they will just stand aside for about a year and let the people kill each other off
The federal government won't exist. It's going to go the way of the Roman government.
You better wake up. Land seizures by government have happened every single day of your life.
The only question is, "Do you qualify... YET?"
Manufactured evidence and politicized lynch-mobs are powerful tools. To think that government will break down before you do is a delusion.
Yet all empires fall.
possible outcoming(s) - Jericho, the TV show (cancelled after two seasons, for it was too much freedom loving spirit in it):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDUYDTtAtNk
Your land can be sterilized. Reference Fukushima Daichi. Or any orther source of "sources".
Land can be easily located and taxed.
Better have food water and gold
But is it a monkey hammer sale? ;-)
nope. wait for the jobs report tomorrow.
shhh, NSA is tuned in...
and listening they are:
https://www.perpetualassets.com/news/2014/07/29/unintended-consequences-...
seems total bs
Yep..total bs.
What exactly is Russia getting that they don't already have? I think if they throw in east Ukraine, write off all the gas debt, and pay a lump sum to settle the rents issue, then Russia should get alll of east Ukraine as well.
My guess is that the tough negotiations will be the method of payment for Russina Gas. I am sure the dollar will be left out of the equation.
There's no way Putin would allow Crimea on the table. That would compromise the Russian Navy and besides, most Crimeans are ethnically and/or culturally Russian. The Crimeans would not accept outside rule after what they just went through and with what is going on in Ukraine.
Totally agree. In fact, my opinion still is that in the end, Russia will tire of all this and take East Ukraine.....and what is anyone going to do about it?
Moar sanctions.....hahahaha. Summer is about half over. Get back to me come the cool breezes of Autumn and the thermostats get turned on to the heat setting throughout Europe.
And as for war in Europe, what would that look like, anyway? This ain't the 1940's folks.
Prussia reborn?!?!? Interesting times.
But America needs to shove its geopolitical Cock between these two! What about America and our interests!?!? Queu CIA meddling...
The Criminal CIA laughing my ass of.
But America needs some geopolitical Viagra to do any cock-shoving these days.
That's "cue."
Nice to see Germany is taking the lead in a unified Europe...
This club is done with. Let's just close this club down.
Pardon me for asking, but since when has the Vierte Reich had the rights to trade Ukrainian land for anything?
At least Merkel belongs on this continent unlike Kerry or Nuland. Just why is the US interfering in Ukraine ? Shouldn't it be sending Samantha Power to "protect" civilians in Gaza from US weaponry ?
FYI--"ukrania" is derived from the Russian meaning "borderland" or "marche". [marche can mean "bordreland, frontier, etc.]
The "Ukraine" has little or no actual history as a sovereign country. It is a work in progress.
Ukraine has never been a sovereign nation.
It is a failed state.
Historically attempts by Ukrainans to attain self government have failed with ultimate power over Ukrainians lives coming from beyond the borders.
Progress is absent. Is breakdown, grab and selloff.
It's not a matter of rights. It is a matter of ability.
Like why a dog licks his dick.....because he can.
Looks like they're thumbing their noses at the IMF on this one
The closer peace and a square deal for the maximum number of people comes, the more desperate the neocons and other militarists will become.
The closer to peace, the closer to war... so long as the Deep State is comprised largely of Grand Chessboard and Greater Israel ideologues...