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Gold And What The High Priests Of Funny Money Don't Want You To Know

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Steve Forbes has had enough of the Federal Reserve and its "sinning" policies to undermine the dollar. In this brief interview with Birch Gold Group, the publisher and CEO of Forbes, Inc. exposes the damage that the central bank has created, "Bernanke was a disaster...has totally mucked up the credit markets." Blasting Janet Yellen "who needs to go to re-education camp," Forbes explains why he believes so strongly in the gold standard, and the one single scenario under which he would ever sell his gold.

 

 

Rachel Mills for Birch Gold Group (BGG): I am so glad to be talking with Steve Forbes, here at FreedomFest. My name is Rachel with Birch Gold Group. Can you talk a little bit about the Federal Reserve printing money these days. And the Federal Reserve recently announced that they have decided to stop printing money by October. Do you think that will actually happen, the Quantitative Easing, anyway?

Steve Forbes: The Fed will stop the Quantitative Easing, but what is disturbing is that they are going to still keep all the bonds that they bought. They’re not going to let them run down, which is now going to be about, when October rolls around, four and a half trillion dollars. So the Fed is still sinning, and those excess reserves are still an overhang and they’re still working to undermine the dollar, openly.

BGG: Do you think they’re going to be using any kind of back door vehicle to basically effectively do the same thing but just sort of under the radar?

Steve Forbes: Well the overhang is so huge, it’s unprecedented. They don’t have to do anything, it’s already there. And they just have to hope that the flood doesn’t sweep away the town.

BGG: Right, you also said that you believe in gold and owning gold, not as an investment but as insurance against economic malpractice. Tell me more about your thoughts on gold these days.

Steve Forbes: Well gold maintains its intrinsic value better than anything else on Earth, and that’s for 4,000 years. And when you see the dollar price fluctuate around gold, that means the dollar is either weakening or peoples’ perceptions about the dollar are changing. So for 180 years this country, the United States, had the dollar fixed to gold, worked pretty well. Certainly has worked better than the floundering we’ve had since. And in the ’80s and ’90s, we had a semi-stable monetary policy, so instead of an F, we’d give it a C, maybe a C+. But we had a terrible decade in the ’70s and we’ve had a terrible time since the early part of the last decade. And this is all unnecessary.

BGG: What do you think about the performance of Bernanke and now Janet Yellen at the Fed?

Steve Forbes: Bernanke was a disaster. He put in Quantitative Easing, he put in Operation Twist. He suppressed interest rates across the board, which has totally mucked up the credit markets. He hurt the economic recovery, this is the first time we’ve had a recovery that didn’t have a sharp snap back, at least initially. And before he became the head of the Fed, he bought into weakening the dollar and bought into the idea that there are excess savings around the world. So he’s got a pretty bad record.

BGG: And do you think Janet Yellen is simply continuing that?

Steve Forbes: Janet Yellen has shown that she needs to go to re-education camp. She has learned nothing and won’t because she has a PhD, spare her a lot of years in the system. So she is a devotee of the Kool-Aid.

BGG: I would agree. You said something really interesting about the gold standard that I wanted to ask you about. You said that a way to sort of peg the dollar back to gold would be to peg it to the price of gold. We would print more dollars based on the price of gold, we would print or stop printing. Can you elaborate?

Steve Forbes: Yes, let’s say we fix the ratio at $1,300 to an ounce of gold. So if it went above $1,300, the Fed would stop the printing. If it goes below $1,300, it would print to keep it, keep it within range.

Steve Forbes: It is. That’s what the high priests of funny money don’t want you to know. The gold standard is very simple to do.

BGG: That’s amazing. But we’re not going to do that, why?

Steve Forbes: One is the economics profession knows less about money than it did a hundred years ago. And they and others have a vested interest in currency instability. Currency trading, now the volume on a daily basis, is over three trillion dollars.

BGG: Currency trading?

Steve Forbes: Currency trading.

BGG: Wow. Just people changing money back and forth trying to get an edge. It’s a huge, huge business. But it’s not really a business.

Steve Forbes: No, gold would put it out of business. They could do something useful, like medical research.

BGG: Do you think interest rates are going to actually go up any time soon?

Steve Forbes: Not a lot. The Fed is determined to suppress them, which means you won’t get good functioning credit markets. So that’s another example of Janet Yellen, she’s misbehaving like Mr. Bernanke.

BGG: They would much rather have people spending and borrowing rather than saving.

Steve Forbes: Well they buy into the notion that saving money is putting it in a black hole instead of realizing that’s capital to create a more prosperous economy. They think people buying stuff is the way to wealth. Well, people produce to buy. But they believe in counterfeiting.

BGG: So do you sell gold often? What would it take for you, personally, to sell your gold?

Steve Forbes: When we’re on a gold standard. Then you wouldn’t need the insurance.

BGG: Right, well thank you so much for talking with me.

Steve Forbes: Thank you, thank you.

Source: Birch Gold Group

Some further thoughts on The Gold Standard (via Forbes)

...

 

Under the gold standard, working people would control the money supply, not elitist bureaucrats. If the Fed increased the supply of dollars beyond the people’s demand for dollars, people would exchange dollars for gold. The people would consequently stop the Fed before it could create inflation.

 

But the people could also increase the money supply if needed to support economic growth. Under the gold standard, banks and other financial institutions would be empowered to mint their own gold coins as long as the amount of gold in the coins was correctly denominated. Banks could consequently increase the money supply to meet the demand for business loans or other unsatisfied demand for money. That increased demand for gold would induce mining companies to increase their supply of gold.

 

But they could not increase the money supply faster than the demand for money. If the people did not want to hold more gold coin, there would be no takers for the newly minted coins.

 

Contrary to myth, and intellectual confusion, under the gold standard the money supply would not be limited to the government’s holdings or supply of gold. The Fed could increase the supply of dollars to meet the demand for dollars, providing the money needed to service economic growth. As long as the supply did not exceed the demand, there would be no increased draw on the Fed’s holdings of gold due to the increased supply of dollars. So if the economy demanded more money to support the level of economic growth, under the gold standard, there would be no limitation on the Fed supplying it. This is why any country could operate a gold standard on any reserve of gold the government holds to support it. (The government could also print more of its currency to buy more gold in the marketplace if it thought holding more gold was necessary. That is fully consistent with the gold standard as well.).

 

Reestablishing the Gold Standard

 

The gold standard could be restored first by legislation simply instructing the Fed to follow a price rule in conducting its monetary policy that would maintain a stable dollar price for gold. If gold’s price was rising, the Fed would then tighten the money supply to stop this budding inflation. If gold’s price was falling, the Fed would increase the money supply to stop that budding deflation. Once the price of gold was thus stabilized for a sufficient period, Congress could then enact legislation exercising its constitutional power to define the dollar as equal to that stabilized value of gold.

 

If America restored its gold standard, other countries would quickly follow. Otherwise, their economies would fall behind. The Chinese and the Russians could be expected to do the same immediately, especially as the Chinese are already ardently seeking restored stability for the dollar. Indeed, if America does not act, nothing would stop the Chinese from adopting their own gold standard for their currency, with Russia to quickly follow. This very column, in fact, could easily be translated into Chinese.

 

Read more here...

 

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Wed, 08/06/2014 - 20:18 | 5056686 junction
junction's picture

Boy, I wish i could afford to buy gold coins now.

Wed, 08/06/2014 - 20:42 | 5056736 Landotfree
Landotfree's picture

I care not what humans use as their medium exchange, as long as they continue to attach interest to it.... expand, fail to expand, decline, collapse and then liquidation of the unfunded liabilities.  Usually in teh 60-80 year range for the cycle to complete. 

Quite a few gold holders are going to be liquidated, during the last cycle Europe was the largest gold holders... many of them were put into ovens.

"Under the gold standard, working people would control the money supply, not elitist bureaucrats."

Right Steve, so what happens when the gold supply can't be expanded exponentially?  Oh right, don't want to tell the Truth on that I am sure.  Steve, exactly what happened to all the prior system based on gold and silver?  

"The gold standard could be restored first by legislation simply instructing the Fed to follow a price rule in conducting its monetary policy that would maintain a stable dollar price for gold."

Right Steve, go back to the gold standard Mr. Smarty, instant collapse of the global credit/debt system.... proceed directly to liquidation of the walking unfunded liabilities.... come back in 25+ years.

Wed, 08/06/2014 - 21:46 | 5056988 cpnscarlet
cpnscarlet's picture

Exactly what kind (degree/order of magnitude) of ignoramus are you?

Wed, 08/06/2014 - 22:19 | 5057106 SuperRay
SuperRay's picture

His ignoramusness is increasing exponentially ad infinitum, unlike the fed's money supply, which will crash to earth soon

Wed, 08/06/2014 - 22:39 | 5057194 spqrusa
spqrusa's picture

Anyone who wants to return to a Gold standard has no clue about history. Gold has ***ZERO*** bearing on the productive capacity of a society. It only serves to suppress credit markets and keep the ones with Gold in control. World is full of parrots and bootlickers.. Damn this shit makes me mad.

Thu, 08/07/2014 - 08:23 | 5058051 Badabing
Badabing's picture

"It only serves to suppress credit markets"
Not true, before 1913 we had the 90 day note.
It worked! It's the fed that has twisted shit around just like you.

Thu, 08/07/2014 - 08:56 | 5058197 goldsansstandard
goldsansstandard's picture

My sincere apologies for errors in spelling and a lless than perfect structure, but above comment needed to be rebuked.

I am blind, and have not developed skills in editing using voice over.
The gold standard concentrated wealth like never before in history.

But the problem wasn't the standard.
The problem was fractional reserve banking with a currency not traceable to an individual bank.

The gold standard kept international dtrade balanced,, and it kept bank credit expansion a little contained compared to the disaster we have now.

One has to go to the origin to understand.
the original sin of the gold standard.

The early goldsmiths discovered they could print more receipts then they had gold in the smith's safe.

That was the original counterfeiting fraud.

Legalized counterfeiting is a nice gig if you can get it.

The fraud was somewhat contained because the smart depositors , if they got a whiff of a goldsmith getting too greedy with the excess receipt printing, would go to the goldsmith and demand the gold. It was original bank run.

It was not systemic, because each goldsmith issued her own receipts.

ThThe writers of the constitution, having seen the previous arrangements under the articles of confederation prohibited using government debt bonds as collateral for currency .

Only receipts for gold or gold itself could be used to pay txes, )or silver)

. One of the few duties of the Federal Government was to mint coins of 20 dollars.

Here in San Francisco, the raw gold was brought to Mission street by the fourty niners( not the football team)

, minted into twentty dollar coins, and returned to the miner. no charge.BTW they just renovated the old mint, and guess who spoke at the dedication, Stretch Pelosi. Really

Anyway, the constitutional arrangements worked very well from when Jackson delisted the Second National bank until Lincoln chose to make the government of the people , by the people and for the people wwithout the consent of the people.

To fight the war he could not collect enough taxes.

He had to resort to enabling counterfeiting, so he could borrow the counterfeit from the banks.

The Big New York Banks were granted the priveledge of issuing greenback receipts much in excess of the gold they had

The rest of the country had to accept these green receipts.

Thus way receipt holders more cash was created than the gold it claimed to represent.

But even worse,, individual banks were no longer accountable for the green receipts they is
This enabled thNational Banks to create more green receipts and loan them out.

Printing green cash for next to nothing enabled the big banks and client corporations to buy America, thus the gilded age.

The Fed was established when , due to actual economic performance, the Chicago and other Country banks started to have deposits rivaling the big New York banks.

The Fed was the central counterfeiter. If the depositors in any bank demanded more cash than the bank could raise by selling or pledging assets, the Fed would come in and print the cash for the bank.

the proper name for the Fed is counterfeiter in the first resort.
I am blind, so my editing skills suck,, but you gold bashers are misinformed.

Here is why in a nutshell
, and only the New York Fed run by it's New York banks gets to due the counterfeiting, aka open market operations. I . More like the open #$%^ committee.

So there you have it. The problem1 gold, it's the counterfeiting of gold receipts morphing into pure counterfeiting.

If you look at any chart of inflation, of middle classs income, ,, of income inequality, one can see that they began to deteriorate in August 1971 because all restraints on counterfeiting were removed once the Fed no longer had to cough up the gold for the dollars that were spent overseas.

Thus the problem never was gold. It was the forced use of fraudulent receipts knoen as greenbacks.

And for the guys who say we need the counterfeiting to funnel capital into the corporations, , upi ar tight. The corporations get low cost counterfeit and thus dilute all the legitamately earned money.

Having gotten something for nothing, they then proceed to inpocerish every one else overbuilding and overloaning on whatever they pretend to be consrvative risks. When the massive errors come to light , the banks are finally seen as busted, can't raise cash by loaning collateral because nobody wants it, and the Fed plus Pelosi, come in and print or borrow the cash the banks need to meet demands.

There isThe people keeep getting poorer and event he coke cans get diluted.

UGold bashers wake up. Fold and free banking would go along way in fixing what ails us.

Its late, so this is g the best I can do right now.

Wed, 08/06/2014 - 22:41 | 5057200 Unknown User
Unknown User's picture

The gold bugs deliberately confusing the issue. Gold is a good like any other. Using goods for payment is barter, i.e., goods are exchange for other goods.  It’s not just a barter system it’s a fraudulent barter system because gold coins or gold backed bills use fractional reserve gold.  

When will the people finally get it that money is merely a representation of wealth and not the wealth itself.  Wealth is created by people, while money is created by a banking cartel that uses this fact to extract wealth from the people.

This is why “We the People” should “coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin”.

The end of f*ing story!  The way the founding fathers wanted it.

 

Wed, 08/06/2014 - 23:54 | 5057435 HardAssets
HardAssets's picture

No matter we are so freakin' screwed up.

Most people have no idea what money and currency are.

Most people have no idea what the function of money is and how it relates to barter.  You wanna do barter ?  Great, nothing wrong with that. Now if youre working as a plumber and want a car, good luck with finding all the people who put that thing together and convincing them to trade your plumbing work for their small part in its production.  Especially if youre in San Diego and theyre in Detroit.

Find out what money, banking, barter, and gold are about. The following books are by economist Murray Rothbard. (He was shunned by mainline Keynesian economists because they didn't like what he wrote.)  Unlike many economists, he has a wonderful writing style and his works are very readable for experts or intelligent laypeople.  You can read these online for free:

http://mises.org/document/617/What-Has-Government-Done-to-Our-Money

http://mises.org/document/6131/Case-for-a-100-Percent-Gold-Dollar-The

 

 

Thu, 08/07/2014 - 00:28 | 5057519 unitwar
unitwar's picture

You are the 1st person I have ever read on ZH that understands money.  I am shocked.  I've tried to explain it like this before.  The US flag represents that United States, it is not the United States.  Money represents wealth and is not wealth in of itself.  It is an abstraction that goldtards can't seem to grasp.  You create money without debt, make interest illegal, get rid of fractional reserve banking and only allow banks to lend what money they actually have and you have a stable system.  No more business cycle.  Dumbasses act like the business cycle is some kind of mystery.  "Why would anyone lend money without interest?"  Exactly!  We don't need banks, they are parasites.  Money can be spent into circulation without debt or interest.  We could have monetary boards, just like juries where a business plan is presented and a board of peers decides whether capital should be allocated to the project.  If the board decides the project is worth it, the money is spent into circulation.  We can have capital allocated by a board of peers, just like a jury, for free.  We don't need capital allocators (lords) lending us money they don't even have and charging us interest for it.  It boggles my mind that people accept that capital allocators should be rewarded so handomely for allocating capital they don't even have!  I could understand it a little if they actually had the money.  Why can't I print money and charge people interest for it?  Because I don't have a PHD in economics, wear a suit and have a building that looks like a temple?

Thu, 08/07/2014 - 09:30 | 5058389 StandardDeviant
StandardDeviant's picture

Well, he's probably not on ZH, but Steve Forbes himself, whom you would probably call a "goldtard", clearly does get the difference between money and wealth/value -- he makes this very point in the first chapter of his latest book (simply called Money; you can browse the first bits on Amazon).

He uses the analogy of money as a ruler, or measure, of wealth.  Simply changing the scale doesn't change the length of the thing you're measuring; I'm sure most here would agree.  Haven't read very far into the book yet, so I can't say where he's going with this, but I expect he'll argue for a return to some sort of gold-backed standard.

As to your capital-allocating "monetary boards", these exist already: they're called "investors", whether individuals, hedge funds, pension funds, prop trading firms, etc.  No fractional reserve banking needed for this.  But why would they allocate their capital without receiving interest in return?  One answer is that they could take a share in the risks and rewards of the project -- which is exactly how Islamic, or Sharia-compliant finance works.

Thu, 08/07/2014 - 09:39 | 5058439 StandardDeviant
StandardDeviant's picture

Not sure what Unknown User means above by "fractional reserve gold".  Gold-backed bills, yes, if there are more bills in circulation than the actual gold they claim to represent.  But why coins?  Gold coins are the real thing, not simply a claim on it.

Thu, 08/07/2014 - 14:17 | 5060209 fockewulf190
fockewulf190's picture

I buy Phyzz because I want to own a hard asset that will help me transit the Great Reset.  We now have $1,4 quadrillion in derivatives underlining the world´s economic system.  There are economic bubbles, in various forms, all over the place. We are being ZIRPed and now NIRPed.  We have wars, conflicts and threats of conflicts everywhere. Black swans are in the air and can land at any time. We also have laws on the books that now say if you save currency and hold it in a bank, you are not a saver, you are a lender...and if the bank gets into trouble, they can take your savings away without notice...just like what happened in Cyprus. Banksters are all getting away with state sanctioned fiscal murder, yet the ordinary citizen gets it in the neck. On top of it all, most nations on this Earth are hopelessly in debt, can never pay it back, and many are sacked with future liabilities that will ensure that even the unborn will be sacked with the debt of the dead.

I make no illusions that owning gold and silver is going to be a cure-all.  I am hoping it will lower the amount of suffering I will experience during the transition to a new economic system.  Perhaps, if I, and others like myself, are lucky enough to still have some phyzz left, it will serve as seed capital to restart an existence for ourselves and others.  Thats my plan. Will it work?  Unfortunately, I believe I am going to find that answer out.   And since it is cold, hard, fact that every fiat currency that ever existed has a 100% failure rate (that alone is a very sobering statistic), I am not going to foolishly rely on any fiat paper for transition.  For those of you who think paper...be it in stocks and/or fiat cash...is going to work for you, I wish you good luck.  We will all need it, and in very large amounts.

Thu, 08/07/2014 - 00:10 | 5057486 HardAssets
HardAssets's picture

Probably of the Bill Still, Ellen Brown, and Stephen Zarenga type.

Their followers are well meaning, but misinformed on the nature of money and banking and how this relates to the US Constitution.

Wed, 08/06/2014 - 22:27 | 5057137 Number 156
Number 156's picture

LandotFree is right about this:

There would be an instant collapse of the global credit/debt system, because the current system is a debt based funny money system.

 

Wed, 08/06/2014 - 22:43 | 5057214 spqrusa
spqrusa's picture

And the only rational voice here on Gold gets down-voted. Fuck ZH is full of Goldtards!

Wed, 08/06/2014 - 23:27 | 5057373 Urban Redneck
Urban Redneck's picture

Fight Club has its sacred cows and members of the herd too, that doesn't change reality.

Thu, 08/07/2014 - 01:47 | 5057619 Radical Marijuana
Radical Marijuana's picture

For sure, Urban Redneck: "Fight Club has its sacred cows!"

Every time that another article recommends some sort of return to any "gold standard" I always raise the view that MONEY IS MEASUREMENT BACKED BY MURDER, and therefore, a gold standard for money is the measurement of gold, backed by murder.

I perceive a significant overlap of the sacred cows of "Liberty" and "Honest Money" ... both of which want to deliberately ignore the central issues of the profoundly paradoxical problems of human beings operating the murder systems which necessarily back up the money systems.

Those in the "liberty" and/or "honest money" herds tend to deliberately ignore the paradoxes with respect to the problems associated with the enforcement of the "rule of law." They love to indulge in their standard false fundamental dichotomies, and related impossible ideals, about what there "should be" ... like liberty and/or honest money. However, they never address the crucial issues surrounding the human murder systems, and militarism as the ideology of those murder systems, whose successes were based upon deceits backed by destruction, which enabled the actually existing economic systems, which are enforced frauds.

Those who promote their sacred cows of "liberty" and/or "honest money" are apparently able to deliberately ignore reality! However, as you pointed out, Urban Redneck, "that doesn't change reality." THE BASIC PROBLEM WITH "HONEST MONEY" IS THAT WOULD TAKE AN HONEST MURDER SYSTEM TO BACK IT UP, AND MAKE THAT REAL.

Of course, it is correct to perceive that the established monetary systems are a State Religion (of prima facie absurd enforced frauds) which are promoted by the High Priests of Funny Money, who do NOT want the people to know that Funny Money IS Fraudulent. However, this article, and many of its supporting comments, were based upon the notions of political miracles, which do NOT admit that is what they are actually based upon. At least I attempt to be consistent, regarding the series of political miracles that I promote, that militarism is the supreme ideology, because it deserves to be.

There is no way to stop "money" from being fundamentally fraudulent financial accounting systems unless one surrounds the political economy with the human ecology. The debt controls depend upon the death controls. No alternative debt controls can function without alternative death controls to back them up. Going back to money based on the principle of the conservation of matter (exemplified in physical gold) is actually a childish day dream, especially since the special theory of relativity has proven that matter is an extremely concentrated form of energy.

The better approach is towards money based on energy. However, when one properly regards human civilization as an energy system, then that perspective necessarily reveals how and why human civilizations actually operate according to the principles and methods of organized crime. Those insights can be theoretically derived from the basic concepts of general energy systems, as manifested through human beings, and those insights can be empirically confirmed by looking at the actual history of how and why "money," which was supposed to be backed by gold and silver, ended up becoming "money as debt."

The reality is the established monetary systems are due to the persistent application of the methods of organized crime through the political processes, to end up with the entrenched, established systems of legalized lies, backed by legalized violence. Fanciful "solutions" to that problem based on going back to "honest money" backed by gold and silver are bogus bullshit, because they deliberately ignore the difficulties which arise with any proposals for some "rule of law" that is supposed to provide some sort of honest murder systems to back up the honest money systems.

For sure, those who promote the ideals of "honest money" and/or "liberty" worship those impossible ideals as sacred cows, and support each other that run in those herds. Indeed, that is so much so that there is no practical point in presenting more "reality." The established systems of Money as Debt, backed by Mutual Assured Destruction, are MAD! However, they have been so socially successful for so long that there is barely anything significantly present in the public spaces than controlled opposition groups, promoting the same old-fashioned impossible ideals regarding "honest money" and/or "liberty" as their bogus bullshit "solutions" to the problem that our political economy is based on enforced frauds.

Theoretically, we should operate our political economy in ways which are more consistent with understanding general energy systems. However, that takes facing the basic facts that human civilization necessarily operate according to the principles and methods of organized crime, and that all private property is based on backing up claims with coercions, and therefore, money is necessarily measurement backed by murder. The only genuinely workable solutions would require intellectual scientific revolutions, such as those which embraced what the special theory of relativity and quantum mechanics have done to the ideas of what physical matter, such as gold, actually represents. People who promote a return to a gold standard for money are ridiculously old-fashioned!

Of course, gold bugs, their related freedom worshipers, tend to be able to deliberately ignore the advances in science and technology, while promoting their old-fashioned ideas, based on common sense, which have been proven to be wrong. The difficulties which human beings have with respect to understanding themselves better as manifesting general energy systems are profound, since the established systems are based on the history of the maximum possible deceits and frauds, in which context the controlled opposition groups to that share the same basically deceitful and fraudulent frame of reference. The basic laws of physics never stopped working, when money backed by gold and silver became "money" as enforced fraud. However, BOTH the High Priests of Funny Money, AND their controlled opposition groups, naturally continue in the ruts of their own preferred mental habits, to deliberately ignore the laws of physics as much as possible, in similar ways, as both promote fundamentally fraudulent, bogus bullshit world views, which are based on deliberately ignoring the progress in science and technology, which have enabled the reality to become globalized electronic frauds, backed by the threat of the force of atomic bombs.

Thus, the down voting ratios for those who point out that having a world operating through quantum mechanics and the special theory of relativity, etc., reverting back to being operated through the old-fashioned ideas of "honest money" are preposterous! Indeed, one of the main reasons how and why the entrenched, established systems of enforced frauds continue to be triumphant is that they are only significantly opposed by groups of reactionary revolutionaries, whose "solutions" to those problems require us going backwards, to money backed by commodities, which most typified the conservation of matter, as the common sense approximation of the conservation of energy.

What I dislike about those reactionary revolutionaries is that they appear unwilling to recognize and admit that they are promoting a prodigious series of political miracles. At least I attempt to recognize and admit that I am promoting a series of political miracles, whereby enough people understand enough that money is necessarily measurement backed by murder, that we were enabled to develop natural selection pressures into better systems of artificial selection. That is, I recommend that we must face the need for better death controls to back up better debt controls, which must be done through unitary mechanisms understanding human civilizations as operating through general energy systems. What I propose is a more self-conscious series of political miracles, whereby enough people understand enough that human civilization necessarily operates fractally according to the principles and methods of organized crime, in order that those processes could be accomplished through a greater use of information and higher consciousness.

However, at the present time, we get almost nothing presented in the public spaces but the High Priests of Funny Money, promoting their State Religion of enforced frauds, opposed by controlled opposition groups who stay within the same old-fashioned frames of reference, despite pretending to provide good alternative resolutions to the problems caused by the State Religion monetary systems having their only connections between natural laws and man-made laws being the ability to back up lies with violence, in ways that they, of course, deliberately deny and ignore, on one level or another.

Meanwhile, the controlled opposition groups also agree to deliberately ignore and deny that all private property is based on backing up lies with violence, while all money is based on measurement backed by murder. Indeed, almost everyone in our society almost completely takes for granted the biggest bullies' bullshit world view, and that includes the controlled opposition groups, who continue to be just as lost inside of the maze of that Bizarro Mirror World perception of things, when they propose their old-fashioned solutions to the ways that our political economy is operated through fundamentally fraudulent financial accounting systems, which systematically understand everything as backwards and distorted as possible.

Oh well, for the last year or so, I have been provoked by those articles on Zero Hedge which trot out their sacred cows to respond in my characteristic ways. Of course, I appreciate the irony that there appears absolutely no practical political point in promoting my perspective upon these issues, since almost nobody bothers to bridge the gaps between the sciences which made the technologies possible, that have created the systems of globalized electronic frauds, backed up by the force of atomic bombs. Instead, those doing that the most are those which most deliberately ignore the ways that is MAD, while those who promote their pretenses of being against that being MAD still continue to mostly operate from within that same MAD frame of reference, whereby political ideologies have almost nothing in common with the concepts of basic physics, because, in order to do that, there would have to be a profound revolution in the philosophy of science, in order to cope with the paradoxical histories whereby the oldest social science was warfare, whose success was based on deceits, which became the foundation for the social science of economics, whose success was based on frauds.

Basically, the biggest bullies' bullshit world view inverted and distorted the philosophy of science, the same as it did almost everything else. In that context, most of the controlled opposition, reactionary revolutionaries, promote bogus solutions that continue to almost totally stay within the same frame of reference. Ideally, one would expect that progress in science and technology would be reflected in progress in politics. However, we are STUCK in the deepening ruts caused by the paradoxical ways that social sciences were successfully based upon deceits and frauds. That the controlled opposition groups promote bogus "solutions" that involve staying in those same ruts in more of an indication of how extremely serious those problems are, than an indication of any genuine solutions being promoted. Hence, I agreed with you, Urban Redneck: "Fight Club has its sacred cows!"

A more scientific monetary system, based on the concepts of general energy systems, is theoretically possible. However, such a development can not be achieved by going backwards to nostalgic nonsense based on the ring of truth found in the common sense understanding of the conservation of matter. Instead, understanding a better money system, in order to maybe realize that, requires understanding how and why human civilizations ended up manifesting general energy systems in ways which are best described according to the principles and methods of organized crime. Human systems, as entropic pumps of energy, are necessarily systems of organized lies, operating robberies. Therefore, a better monetary system can not exist without a better military system, since money is necessarily measurement backed by murder.

Thu, 08/07/2014 - 02:22 | 5057682 Urban Redneck
Urban Redneck's picture

But are human beings (collectively) capable of greater use of information and higher consciousness? And isn't the necessity backing of money with murder greatly reduced by doing away with the quaint notion that money has or can store value over time?

Thu, 08/07/2014 - 15:28 | 5060599 Radical Marijuana
Radical Marijuana's picture

Urban Redneck, at the present time it appears that the only thing that human beings could collectively do is commit suicide together, due to the ways that human civilizations are dominated so much, for so long, by systems of legalized lies, backed by legalized violence, that they can NOT come remotely close to being capable of greater use of information and higher consciousness.

A tiny percentage of people able to do better science and built awesome new technologies upon that basis, which have delivered powers and capabilities to the masses of people, and their rulers, which are trillions of times greater, but those were primarily employed to become even better at enforcing frauds, i.e. weapons of mass destruction and mass surveillance running amok!

All of the "quaint notions" about what money should be tend to be totally backwards to the real history behind what money IS, which is measurement backed by murder. Guys like Mike Maloney, in his series of videos, which have been previously featured on Zero Hedge, provide the list of ideals regarding what money should be. The whole of mainstream economics deliberately disregards what money IS as much as possible, in order to focus upon what money should be, in preposterous ways!

Obviously, consciousness is the value creating element. Money is a human invention, whose meaning is driven by human activities. The problem with "money as a store of value" is that tends to mistake the symbol for the thing symbolized. In our system, "money" gets made out of nothing as debts, in order to pay for strip-mining the planet. The actual store of value was in the natural resources, which were then reduced to garbage and pollution due to human activities. Those doing that accumulated their symbolic tokens of "money." There was never much of a store of value there, other than how the police and other armed forced were being paid to back up the established systems of organized lies operating robberies.

The "store of value" was in building the systems that could continue to obtain more resources, and turn those into garbage and pollution as fast a possible. Those doing that the most were the most able to deliberately deny and ignore the ways that those real ecologies were evolving, because those were evolving on the basis of successful deceits and frauds, being enforced with destruction. The power to produce destruction continued to control the power to produce. No better overall human, industrial, and natural ecologies have been able to evolve, because the established systems were based on the maximum possible deceits and frauds about themselves.

THE BASIC ENERGY SYSTEMS ATTITUDE IS THAT HUMAN BEINGS OPERATE AS ENTROPIC PUMPS OF ENERGY. HOWEVER, THE BIGGEST BULLIES' BULLSHIT WORLD VIEW HAS REVERSED THE MEANING OF THE CONCEPT OF ENTROPY, THE SAME AS THE MEANING OF "MONEY" HAS BEEN REVERSED.

Since our real human ecology was directed by murder systems whose success depended upon deceits, and our real political economy depended upon money systems whose success depended upon frauds, what MONEY IS became totally backwards to what money should be. However, it is worse than that, because those who propose making a better monetary system continue to deliberately ignore what money IS, when promoting what money should be, because they continue to understand the real mechanisms in totally backwards ways.

The interview above with Forbes was another classic example of someone who operates within the established systems, promoting nostalgic nonsense of going backwards in order to resolve the problems regarding the ways that we are going forward, into runaway enforced frauds dominating human activities more and more ... However, somebody like Forbes does not appear to have the slightest clue about the basic ways that he understands "money" backwards, and indeed, the ways that he understands everything, such as the basic ideas of time and space, backwards.

The paradoxical problems that we face are that the genuine solutions ought to become better evolutionary ecologies, of what actually exists, which are living energy systems. However, the degree to which those have become totally dominated by the biggest bullies' bullshit, through the philosophy of science, to politics, means that we continue to approach the ideals of what money should be with an understanding of the mechanisms of what money IS which are as totally backwards as was human possible. It is inside that context in which I regard the vast majority of the critics of the State Religion's High Priests of Funny Money as being just as dangerously full of the same basic bullshit.

Our society is almost totally dominated by professional liars and immaculate hypocrites, which routinely promote their ideals about what things should be, in ways which are totally backwards to the real mechanisms through which those things actually operate. Therefore, we continue to have those impossible ideals actually make the opposite happen in the real world. Forbes' "solutions" would certainly backfire and make things even worse! Collectively we have created fundamentally fraudulent financial accounting systems, which are the maximum possible opposite to the alleged ideals about what money should be. As long as we continued to deliberately ignore that money is measurement backed by murder, then we will continue to drive society as a whole to become sicker and more insane.

INDEED, IN MY VIEW OUR SOCIETY IS TERMINALLY SICK AND INSANE. THE DEGREE TO WHICH OUR SOCIETY IS ALMOST TOTALLY DOMINATED BY ENFORCED FRAUDS DRIVES ME TO CONCLUDE THAT THE ONLY THING THAT HUMAN BEINGS COULD COLLECTIVELY DO IS COMMIT SUICIDE.

Since everyone who is most successful became that way by operating within the established systems of lies operating robberies, towards which they have developed attitudes of maximum evil deliberate ignorance, we are rushing faster and faster towards the collective consequences of those collectively enforced frauds destroying our civilization. In that context, in my view, it continues to be practically a waste of my time to bother to try to make politics more consistent with physics and biology, despite that making abstract sublime sense, due to the entrenched ways that all the established systems are based on runaway enforced frauds, wherein those who were most successful at being professional liars and immaculate hypocrites have accumulated the most social power to continue to dominate those systems to become worse, faster!

Thu, 08/07/2014 - 16:04 | 5060822 Urban Redneck
Urban Redneck's picture

The collective suicide of the human race is a rather extreme solution to the evils of the monetary system. The largest obstacle to implementing a replacement system (for better, or worse) is that short of a NWO, the system must be at arrived at by a consensus of the Parties. Unfortunately, the Parties are made up of bankers who maintain a monopoly on the money supply and States who maintain a monopoly on violence. In order for that outcome to be better, the consensus of the Parties must be for a voluntary and flexible notion of money, but I do not think this is necessarily an insurmountable obstacle. But then, I did succeed by operating within the established systems, even if I chose to do things my own way.

Thu, 08/07/2014 - 17:57 | 5061365 Radical Marijuana
Radical Marijuana's picture

Fundamentally fraudulent financial accounting drives this basic problem:

http://www.naturalnews.com/z046363_Gaia_ecological_destruction_human_conflict.html

Gaia's psychic scream: why ecological destruction leads to human conflict

By Mike Adams.

"the death and destruction of our natural world has reached a breaking point ... the problem is that we treat this planet as if we were an invading enemy force seeking to destroy it."

Of course, my view is that the "successes" of warfare based on deceits, leading to the "successes" of finance based on frauds, were what was creating the runaway evil deliberate ignorance towards longer term consequences. However, in my view, that kind of article I linked still gets its mechanisms for better resolutions of those problems profoundly BACKWARDS!

We are in vicious spirals whereby the social successes of enforced frauds, which work all too well in the short-term for some people, are driving collective suicide for almost everyone in the longer term! It is precisely the degree of runaway success through social controls operated by lies backed by violence which are driving us collectively to behave suicidally.

THE BASIC PROBLEMS ARE HOW TO OPERATE HUMAN MURDER SYSTEMS, AFTER SCIENCE MAKES WEAPONS BECOMES TRILLIONS OF TIMES MORE POWERFUL!

EVEN IF THERE ARE NO MASSIVE USES OF THOSE WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION, THEY STILL BACK UP THE ROUTINE OPERATIONS OF POLITICAL ECONOMY BASED ON ENFORCED FRAUDS, WHICH ROUTINELY MAXIMIZE THE SHORT-TERM GAINS FOR SOME, WHILE DELIBERATELY IGNORING THE LONGER TERM COSTS FOR EVERYONE.

Every economic decision we make is made using the bent rubber ruler of fiat money made out of nothing as debts. However, going back to a gold standard to try to correct that, so that human activities are made more consistent with the general laws of nature, is way too superficial and silly a "solution."

The essential problem is how to operate better death controls, when the existing ones are based on the maximum possible deceits, and those in the controlled opposition groups share just as much in the same basic bullshit about that. Money MUST be measurement backed by murder. It is the backing up of measurements with murders that is THE PROBLEM.

Thu, 08/07/2014 - 02:30 | 5057687 HardAssets
HardAssets's picture

@Radical - at its heart, money is pretty simple. Its all about satisfying human needs and desires.

Lets say youre a fisherman. You want to buy shoes for your kids. Unfortunately, the cobbler doesn't like eating fish so he's not interested in trading with you. You do know a cattleman though. His wife is tired of eating beef all the time and so he'll trade you some of his beef for your fish. You can then go to the cobbler, who loves beef, and he'll trade you some shoes for it.  In this case, the beef wasn't something you wanted for yourself. It served as an 'intermediate good' that you could use in barter for the final product that you actually wanted.

This is how the commodities gold & silver became money. They have physical qualities that are desireable to many people for their utility (objects of beauty, etc) and also as a means of exchange. Unlike the beef, for example, these metals won't rot over time. Gold and silver can be used as general intermeditate goods for facilitating barter. No one had to order or threaten people to accept gold and silver in exchange.

The problems arose when gold smiths (who later devolved into banksters) issued more claim checks (banknotes) than the actual metal they had in their vaults. And, there has been a very long campaign to confuse these banknotes, and later entries in computer memories, for the commodity intermediate good/money that is gold and silver. If you can fool enough people, you can print as many of the fake, unbacked banknotes as you wish - and buy politicians, bureaucrats, and others. You can take over a society . . . and they have.

Buckminster Fuller wrote about an economy based on the exchange of electric power. Electric power would be that commodity which would be generally desireable and accepted for final consumption or as an intermediate good for exchange. An interesting idea. I'm not sure how it would work on a practical level. One thing about the metals, or even other physical intermediate goods, is that you don't rely on outside parties to clear the transactions. For example, how would my nephew be paid for mowing a neigbors lawn in electric energy ?  But one can imagine that in the future other commodity intermediate goods may serve as money.

Thu, 08/07/2014 - 23:36 | 5060436 Radical Marijuana
Radical Marijuana's picture

HardAssets:

I rather liked this anthropological view of the history of money:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZIINXhGDcs

David Graeber, DEBT: The First 5,000 Years

Beginning with a sharp critique of economics (which since Adam Smith has erroneously argued that all human economies evolved out of barter), Graeber carefully shows that everything from the ancient work of law and religion to human notions like "guilt," "sin," and "redemption," are deeply influenced by ancient debates about credit and debt.

"Money" is relatively simple, as long as everyone voluntarily agrees to cooperate. However, in the real world that presents everything backward, because "cooperation" arises as dynamic equilibria between the forces of robbery.

What we used to think of as "money" was coins made out of precious metals. However, their real history was primarily about paying soldiers. The real history of metal money is deeply connected with the real history of militarism.

http://www.csun.edu/~hceco008/papermoney.html

A quick history of paper money.

The most important comment is in the abstract:

... the backing consisted of the taxing ability of a government.

Money has a lesser context and a greater context.

The lesser context is the history of barter.

The greater context is the history of robbery.

The lesser context is always within the greater context.

The lesser context was the evolution of money as a means to facilitate voluntary contracts. Money was a most useful sublime commodity. Most often, that was gold or silver, that concentrated the ability to freely trade. However, money was always within the greater context where, instead of voluntary contracts between people, there could simply be robbery instead.

"Taxation" is the robbery by the "Sovereign" where the people being taxed have no choice. A lot of the history of money was about paying for soldiers.

For instance, the link above states:

The first government-issued paper money in the western world was circulated by the French Military in Canada, in 1685. The military payroll from France had been delayed, and the intendant, Jacques Dumuelles, paid soldiers with quarter sections of playing cards (denominated in livres). Each card was an IOU promising to pay a stated number of livres in coins when (and if) the coins arrived. The card money circulated in spite of the French Crown's attempts to suppress it, and was generally acknowledged to have stimulated business. The initial experiment was successful enough that many subsequent issues were made into the 1750’s.

The rest of that article, and other links from it, are full of details about the history of money ... One of the arguments made is that there is no fiat money. It is true there is no money made totally out of nothing. Money may be whatever people believe it is. But, there are reasons WHY they believe it.

Most people operate within money as a barter.

Most people use money in voluntary contracts.

However, that lesser context of useful money is always still within the greater contexts of money operating within real robbery.

The monetary systems as a whole involve involuntary arrangements where people can not exercise real voluntary consent to transactions. The monetary systems as a whole are inside robbery, which makes that money be based on fraud. That fraud is not pure fiat. Fiat money is backed up by the history of robbery, which made people forced to accept being defrauded.

Ordinary ideas of money are that it is an accounting for matter and energy of exchanged goods and services. However, those ordinary ideas of money are within the context that things can simply be taken by force. The force necessary to rob evolved into the power to defraud. Fiat money is not truly made out of nothing. Fiat money is always backed up by something. But, that something can be coercion and lies. Coercion and lies are peculiar forms of goods and services. THE PRODUCTION OF DESTRUCTION CONTROLS PRODUCTION. However, from the point of view of general energy systems, the production of destruction is still a form of production. There are no fundamental dichotomies between the predators and their prey.

Since ultimately all the lesser contexts must always be inside greater contexts, it is not possible to understand any real political economies without understanding the ways that robbery and fraud worked. Dishonesty, backed up with violence, is how fiat money was really backed. There can be no fiat money in the sense that there is no money based on nothing. However, fiat money is not based on a fair barter or trade of anything, without that all taking place inside the real context of "Sovereign Law" and the power to rob, which includes the power to defraud, by governments authorizing the creation of fiat money.

The interview with Forbes above typically takes for granted the background of the "rule of law." There are huge established systems of police and other armed forces, which are paid by the monetary system to back that up. For most people, especially including the relatively rich and powerful within the established systems, they are like "fish taking for granted the water in which they swim." Thousands of years of the history of warfare was behind creating the social systems in which our current political economy can operate through its monetary systems. MOST OF THE EXPLANATIONS OF THAT ARE THE BIGGEST BULLIES' BULLSHIT.

HardAssets, I regard what you have written as a good summarizing restatement of the conventional views regarding money. However, my research into these matters has led to me to regard those conventional views about "money" to be utterly mistaken about the real mechanisms that made and maintained the monetary systems.

I REPEAT some of my typical views:

Most "monetary reform" theories are pie in the sky ideals, based on impossible political miracles that everyone should cooperate better. However, in fact, the real world has resulted from the resolution of conflicts through the history of warfare. Warfare is simply organized crime on a large scale. The same principles and methods of organized crime continue to operate at every level, and form the real frame of reference within which people live, while most of them do not want to think about that, but rather prefer to have voluntary contracts, in which money is their symbol of cooperation. However, all voluntary contracts are inside involuntary contracts. There is no fundamental dichotomy there. Ultimately, money is measurement backed by murder, and the debt controls depend upon the death controls. THAT is what makes the monetary system fall into an infinite tunnel of deceits and frauds, where the War Kings made sovereign states, which were taken over by the Fraud Kings, so that we ended up with governments being organized crime, controlled by the best organized gangs of criminals.

Mostly, most people, do not like that, and want to propose something different that is better, except that is impossible. The political economy is always inside the human ecology, and the human ecology is always necessarily manifesting its death controls as the central factor. Thus, the money system can not exist outside of the murder system. Nobody who proposes changing the money system that does not address how to simultaneously change the murder system is actually addressing the real problems, but rather, is continuing to propose impossible ideals, which must necessarily backfire in the real world. The advancement of science and technology have made our combined money/murder system problems trillions of times BIGGER than ever before, so that those became global electronic frauds, backed by the force of atomic bombs. Generally, nobody has any solutions to offer to problems that BIG. Given that the vast majority of people do not think about that, and those who currently dominate those already entrenched and established systems do not want more people to think about those things, we are simply bouncing down through history like pin balls.

Many comments on Zero Hedge articles go off on the tangent of cryptocurrencies, such as Bitcoin. Clearly those are merely another manifestation of the overall globalized electronic monetary frauds, which are attempting to get out of the control of the central banking systems. However, Bitcoin only cruises within the already established systems, such as the police and military, and eventually all the weapons of mass destruction, which are currently the "credible" threats of murders to back up the measurements done by money. Bitcoin does not have its own murder system to back it up. Therefore, it is not full-fledged money, but rather still a parasite upon an parasite. The same goes for the notions about possession of gold or silver, since private property does not exist outside of some system of public violence to back that up.

THE QUESTION OF WHICH IS MORE IMPORTANT, THE POSSESSION OF THE GOLD, OR THE POSSESSION OF THE GUN, BOTH ARE OVERWHELMED BY ELECTRONIC FRAUDS BACKED BY ATOMIC BOMBS!

The special group of Zero Hedge readers tend to think a lot more about the monetary system than the vast majority of people do. However, in my view, most of them are still reactionary revolutionaries, who want to go backwards, or who have only partially woken up to the realities that OUR PROBLEMS ARE TRILLIONS OF TIMES WORSE NOW THAN EVER BEFORE, AND AUTOMATICALLY GETTING EVEN WORSE, BY MORE ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE, AS MOST SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY CONTINUES TO ADVANCE, WHILE HUMAN UNDERSTANDING OF THEMSELVES APPEARS TO BE GOING BACKWARDS, AS THE SOCIAL SUCCESSES OF ENFORCED FRAUDS CONTINUE TO MAKE THE BEST PROFESSIONAL LIARS AND IMMACULATE HYPOCRITES MORE WEALTHY AND POWERFUL WITHIN THE ESTABLISHED SOCIAL SYSTEMS, AND THEREFORE, SOCIETY CONTINUES TO BE MORE AND MORE DOMINATED BY LIES ABOUT ITSELF, WHICH SELF-DECEPTIONS ARE BEING DRIVEN INTO OVERDRIVE BY ADVANCES IN SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY WHICH ARE NOT APPLIED TO UNDERSTAND SOCIETY ITSELF!

Thu, 08/07/2014 - 16:40 | 5061022 goldsansstandard
goldsansstandard's picture

I do not know of any other commodity that has accumulated 5000 years of production with only minimal consumption.

All the mines in the world can only add one and half percent to the existing.stock.

Thus the stock is more constant than any other commodity and is extremely insensetive t price rises leading to a significant increase in supply.

That is,, until a gold asteroid crashes into Earth, or a miracle gold filter can pull it out of the sea

Goldman et. al. thought oil was money, so when things heated up in 2007 they bought every barrel they could and filled up every storage container in the world.

They drove the price of oil to the stratosphere, production ramped up, consumption plummeted, and there was no more place for Goldman to put more oil.

The price dropped to thirty dollars.

So much for ooil as money.
It's stock is measured in months of consumption, not millenia.

Thu, 08/07/2014 - 18:04 | 5061301 Radical Marijuana
Radical Marijuana's picture

Yeah, gold is the single best example of presenting the "ring of truth" of natural laws, in the form of the conservation of matter. Precious metals were useful limits to fiat money frauds. However, they do not resolve the basic problem, which is that possession of gold is the same as the possession of all private property, i.e., claims backed by coercions.

Gold is the money of kings. However, that is because Kings were, by definition, the surviving War Kings, that were able to prevail through the tests of warfare. The tests of warfare now include atomic bombs, which PROVE that all matter is a form of energy. The gold standard is therefore old-fashioned nonsense, which is like a raw ore to be smelted as a source of more sublime social truths.

Thu, 08/07/2014 - 12:28 | 5059329 Againstthelie
Againstthelie's picture

The trick is, to lend out against interest - that means more must be paid back than what was lent out.

If I borrow 10 ounces and must pay back 11 or I borrow 10 dollar and must pay back 11 - the principle is the same.

And even the exponential function is the same.

You are correct.

He claims that saving was the cure. But in this system all money created is only created as credit. By private banks, btw! Which he also seems not to understand ("we print more money if price of gold falls" - and what is witht he money creation by private banks?). Paying back credit means the money is vanishing (in this regime)!

So either Forbes has no clue or he is intentionally spreading disinformation.

To me it seems distraction from the true secret of the money lender's power - lending against compound interest - is the agenda.

Wed, 08/06/2014 - 20:38 | 5056743 Bangin7GramRocks
Bangin7GramRocks's picture

Didn't read the article. Too busy taping up the house for the next 2 years of isolation. Just stopped by to say Fuck Steve Forbes! Fuck him in the ass with his silver spoon! Godspeed to all!

Wed, 08/06/2014 - 20:44 | 5056763 SafelyGraze
SafelyGraze's picture

".. gold coins right now"

or copper

Wed, 08/06/2014 - 20:50 | 5056788 Quus Ant
Quus Ant's picture

Tin foil is still cheap.

I've got mine- have you got yurs?

Wed, 08/06/2014 - 20:20 | 5056689 unrulian
unrulian's picture

or Silver

Wed, 08/06/2014 - 22:18 | 5056702 Number 156
Number 156's picture

Birch Group, whats the big secret we DONT know?

What I would Like to know:

  • How much gold does COMEX and the NY FED really have?
  • How much of that gold in COMEX and the NY FED was rehypothecated?
  • What were the Germans told in regards to the gold repatriation?
  • Is the real reason behind gold price manipulation is because western governments and banks  owe so much of it, and would default under correct market pricing?
Wed, 08/06/2014 - 20:26 | 5056707 alexcojones
alexcojones's picture

Wonder how much AU Steve has?

The Mega Rich probably do have more than, shall we say,

One Percent

Wed, 08/06/2014 - 22:15 | 5057089 HardAssets
HardAssets's picture

Well that ole robber baron JP Morgan said:

"Money is gold, and nothing else."

He probably had a fairly good idea of what he was talking about.

As for trying to convince strangers on websites who obviously haven't done their homework. Screw em.

Wed, 08/06/2014 - 20:31 | 5056722 db51
db51's picture

Well, three days ago I started researching buying $ 65K in Gold and Silver with funds from selling actual physical wheat.  While I'm researching Silver takes an Azz Pounding like Obama in a Bathhouse with Reggie Love.   How can gold be a safe haven as long as it's price is fixed and manipulated.   BTW....my wheat I was holding in the meanwhile went up  $ 4%.    There is no price discovery mechanisms left to trust in any markets.  

Wed, 08/06/2014 - 20:38 | 5056745 seek
seek's picture

Yup.

When the unit you measure prices in (USD) is being manipulated, there's no reliable basis for price discovery. Does the price change reflect a change in value of the commodity, or a change in the measuring stick?

No price discovery = no markets. The system is dead, it just hasn't keeled over yet.

Wed, 08/06/2014 - 20:41 | 5056753 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

I thought you baled on wheat????

Wed, 08/06/2014 - 21:07 | 5056837 db51
db51's picture

I started bailing (forward Contracting) on the wheat selling 30% a day.....so from the time I started until last bushel was sold, it rose in price a little over 4%.   Sold it for delivery in August and September....payment on delivery.

Wed, 08/06/2014 - 21:19 | 5056879 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

alright, so...you have everyones attention...65k plus later, whacha gonna do?

Wed, 08/06/2014 - 21:41 | 5056970 Skateboarder
Skateboarder's picture

I told him to cash 4K out every month and buy Au and Ag maples from a local shop in person.

Wed, 08/06/2014 - 21:47 | 5056992 fonzannoon
fonzannoon's picture

I'm on the phone and i read your post quickly and it looked like it said "from a local shop in prison" and somehow that made sense

Wed, 08/06/2014 - 21:55 | 5057021 Skateboarder
Skateboarder's picture

Buying gold grillz from the prison gift shop?

Thu, 08/07/2014 - 10:54 | 5058819 Manthong
Manthong's picture

:-D

I had two fillings done last year.. I told the dentist from now on, nothing but gold in the chops.

I asked him about maybe replacing one of my front teeth (perfectly good ones) with a gold one and he told me that I had the wrong complexion and the insurance would likely not cover that cosmetic procedure.

As it happened, insurance did not cover the cost of the gold for my back teeth but at least I have have a reason to grin.

Except, I am a little concerned that my mineral value might eventually make me a target for pre-mortem scavengers (mostly on the wife's side of the family). 

Wed, 08/06/2014 - 20:43 | 5056761 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

GD standard is the way to go...but NO WAY do I advocate it for the reasons above. A way for the little guy to get some green? NO WAY. Gold standards take fiat out of circulation and turn "ordinary millionaires" into bazillionaires!

The reason I am adamant about a gold standard is that it is the only cure for Bailout Nation...or "Bailout Greed"...as it were...thus PREVENTING the incredible risk STILL BEING TAKEN BY TOOBIG TO FAIL.

In short...under a gold standard "Detroit had a chance." Now even Kansas is getting downgraded!

I do agree "the Bernanke Fed was a Wild West Rampalooza!" But how can anyone fail to see the consequences...least of all our hapless leader...as we suffer through the worst post World War II recovery in history.

Get gold in the game and now your adding REAL risk into the "financial wilding" going on here. In short "how willing are you to part with GOLD money"...and not as a question but as an answer.

This does pay for wars btw...

Wed, 08/06/2014 - 20:59 | 5056813 Jonesy
Jonesy's picture

Nice trade, the wheat is better than fiat, but how long can you store your wheat?  Better get something more durable.  Wheat is great, gold is better.  Any metals for that matter, as long as you can put your net worth in something hand-basket sized, just in case you have to find another neighborhood.

 

Wed, 08/06/2014 - 21:17 | 5056878 Al Huxley
Al Huxley's picture

+1.  Or if the $USD ever goes tits up (not that something like that would EVER happen, because the FED, the Chinese and the Russians all love us, and love the $USD and want us to continue to enjoy the good life, no matter what it costs).  But still, just in case...

Wed, 08/06/2014 - 20:33 | 5056726 THE DORK OF CORK
THE DORK OF CORK's picture

Don't buy what this Forbes is selling.

remember the crisis of 1914 ........

Gold was useless (in France or Germany who held most of the above ground gold) until mobilization  / printing money.

It was a epic failure of the gold standard.

 

Wed, 08/06/2014 - 20:38 | 5056740 Keyser
Keyser's picture

You can trust in fiat, me, I'll trust the ancient relics... 

Wed, 08/06/2014 - 20:42 | 5056756 THE DORK OF CORK
THE DORK OF CORK's picture

He is a Gold standard socialist.

He wants to spread even deeper the costs of bank credit creation.

Wed, 08/06/2014 - 20:50 | 5056785 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

I absolutely agree with this. Even oil is rolling over in price now!!!! Mo money to the Banksta??!!

Yo, debt brother! Give it up already! Friggin the Affordable Care Act can only be afforded by bazillionaires!

Just KILLING demand...and obviously with that jobs, recovery, growth...Gaza.

Liquidity needs to be restored to the ECONOMY...how else to explain basically free energy in the USA and a weak to worthless dollar?

THE MONEY IS SHIT!

"Make the money worth something...or Wall Street will make it worth something else."

Wed, 08/06/2014 - 20:33 | 5056728 logicalman
logicalman's picture

If you've got more than an ounce and a half, you've got more than your fair share.

 

Wed, 08/06/2014 - 20:34 | 5056730 bullionbaron
bullionbaron's picture

Buy gold, just make sure you don't buy fake gold:

http://www.bullionbaron.com/2014/08/replica-vs-real-1oz-gold-pamp-bar.html

Or gold that's stored on your behalf by other parties:

http://www.bullionbaron.com/2014/07/how-safe-are-unallocated-bullion.html

And once you have your hands on the real thing, keep it safe!

http://www.bullionbaron.com/2014/07/7-ways-to-keep-your-gold-and-silver-safe.html

Thu, 08/07/2014 - 01:47 | 5057648 Phil Free
Phil Free's picture

Hey, thanks for the link-trolling.

Thu, 08/07/2014 - 04:28 | 5057816 bullionbaron
bullionbaron's picture

yw

Wed, 08/06/2014 - 20:34 | 5056731 JimS
JimS's picture

The article has one huge hole in the middle at "if gold's price was rising the Fed would then......." fuck us again. The Federal Reserve must go, period. Do you really want to trust the Fed, a group of selfish bankers, to do anything involving "money"? You are just asking to be fucked up the ass.

Wed, 08/06/2014 - 21:04 | 5056828 Greenskeeper_Carl
Greenskeeper_Carl's picture

That was my WTF moment too. Most of the years we had a gold standard we didn't have the fed. Hell, even if you think fiat is the way to go, we don't need the fed. The treasury can mint the coins and control the money supply, like it says in the constitution. Hell, even if you are a fan of fiat money(which I am not), why can't the treasury "control inflation and maintain full employment"? Under no scenario is the fed necessary. All it does is suck wealth away from everyone in the entire world who uses dollars. It's disappointing to hear someone smart and aware enough to make an argument for sound money and still think we need the fed.

Wed, 08/06/2014 - 23:10 | 5057135 HardAssets
HardAssets's picture

Have never once heard Forbes say the fractional reserve banking system & the Fed are frauds. He's a smart enough guy to know which end is up. Half-assed approaches remind me of Gorbachev calling for a 'reform' of Soviet Communism.

Wed, 08/06/2014 - 23:34 | 5057378 HardAssets
HardAssets's picture

The point that many miss (especially after decades of purposely not being taught it) is that money is gold. (Also silver has a long history of being money too.) Legit banknotes are claims on the real deal used as a convenience. Key to this system is being able to exchange currency for real money on demand, and to be able to use them interchangeably.

As for "if the price of gold goes up the banksters will stop printing" . . . . well they've engineered all kinds of ways to keep the 'prices' down haven't they ?

Only a true gold standard with gold on demand will limit the currency fiat pozi scams. The western banksters fight this with every last ounce of energy in them. Its been a key to their dominion over much of the planet.

Wed, 08/06/2014 - 20:39 | 5056732 THE DORK OF CORK
THE DORK OF CORK's picture

We are currently living inside a epic capitalist overproduction crisis - much like the crisis of 1913/4.

Why does this man want more guilded capital that we cannot afford to use ?

A gold standard does not solve the problem of bank credit creation / overproduction.

Wed, 08/06/2014 - 23:57 | 5057446 Greenskeeper_Carl
Greenskeeper_Carl's picture

How does govt central planning, corrupt bailouts, and massive money printing by an unaccountable central bank qualify as an "epic capitalist overproduction crisis"? That's probably the dumbest thing I've read in the comments section in a while, and that says a lot.

Thu, 08/07/2014 - 01:27 | 5057621 HardAssets
HardAssets's picture

@Greenskeeper_Carl - ""epic capitalist overproduction crisis"?"

Its from some old, long discredited notions expoused by crank Karl Marx.

Wed, 08/06/2014 - 20:42 | 5056758 AllWorkedUp
AllWorkedUp's picture

I wish they'd just shut up about gold. Every time someone opens their yap about gold it goes down $20

Just STFU already.

Wed, 08/06/2014 - 21:54 | 5057017 JonNadler
JonNadler's picture

and if general Jim speaks it's twice that, shows who the boys think da man is

Wed, 08/06/2014 - 20:45 | 5056765 JuliaS
JuliaS's picture

"... we fix the ratio at $1,300 to an ounce of gold. So if it went above $1,300, the Fed would stop the printing. If it goes below $1,300, it would print to keep it, keep it within range."

And that's where he lost me. If printing to fix a price of a commodity is considered a "gold standard" then, apparently we were on one all along without even realizing it! Nixon didn't close the window. No sir! It may look like a brick wall, but I swear, the sunshine oozes right through! You just have to squint at it at the right angle.

Wed, 08/06/2014 - 20:46 | 5056773 lasvegaspersona
lasvegaspersona's picture

Forbes reveals he knows no more than the average gold writer. He fails to discuss that the price of gold is whatever those who have the ability to sell unlimited paper gold want it to be. With the Fed backing them up they will keep gold at the price of production so physical gold can go to the systemically important people (ie oil) who demand it.

I can forgive the average ZH commentator for wanting a return to a classic gold standard but Forbes is supposed to understand money. He should know why it was abandoned and why it will never be tolerated again.

Allowing the government to set the price of gold guarantees that it will never be at it's true value. They will suppress it's price to strengthen their paper money. Until gold is 'merely' a wealth asset, outside the formal structure of the banking system it will continue to be 'used' to the advantage of those who print currency.

Wed, 08/06/2014 - 20:54 | 5056799 JuliaS
JuliaS's picture

Oh, he doesn't talk about the government fixing the price of gold. He talks about the Fed - the same Fed being involved in price fixing. In other words - keeping things exactly as they are. Encouraging the public to buy gold, yet not letting them profit. Levitating the value and getting rich off the margin.

Wed, 08/06/2014 - 20:57 | 5056806 bullionbaron
bullionbaron's picture

It doesn't sound like Forbes is talking about a classic gold standard in this article, but rather strengthening or weakening the dollar based on what the price of gold is doing when priced in US Dollars.

Thu, 08/07/2014 - 01:42 | 5057608 HardAssets
HardAssets's picture

Gold is money.  (Also silver has a history of being used for this. These metal commodities have physical characteristics that make them suitable for use as money.)  Certain weights of gold were given names and used in standard size/weight/purity coins to ease commerce. This is easier than weighing the precious metal for each transaction. At one time a US dollar was defined as 1/35th of an ounce of gold. Legit banknotes are nothing but claim checks for real money that are more convenient to carry than the metal. In a real gold system metal or banknotes could be exchanged for one another on demand. Excess banknote printing (to make more interest from loaning them out) would be discovered if too many people demanded metal for their banknotes. That bank would be closed down, its remaining assets seized, and those responsible would go to prison. (In China under this kind of system, they'd probably put them in front of a firing squad.)

The banksters sought a way to continue their counterfeiting, but also be protected from its consequences. So, they set up central banks which they owned. With such a central bank, a cartel of banks can all print more banknotes than metal in their vaults without as high a risk of negative consequences for them. Those in government went along with it because they saw a way to spend without going to reluctant taxpayers. They could just borrow banknotes from the banks. Thus, this scam was made 'legal'.

Its quite obvious that this is a system of fraud. Banksters make money by loaning Nothing at all. They would not be able to do so if they had to redeem banknotes for metal on demand & were closed down and imprisoned if they did not do this.

In addition to 'money on demand' banks, there could still be 'investors banks' where people could deposit their real money knowing that it would be prudently loaned out. Such investor bank depositers would agree that they could not access their money on demand for a certain length of time, similar to CDs today.  At the end of that time period they would be paid back with interest.

BTW - many of us are for competing monies. Gold & silver have a long history, but if you've got something else that will serve, I know I'd like to hear about it. But I don't know of anything that would better serve the money role that also doesn't entail counterparty and other type risks.

Thu, 08/07/2014 - 02:13 | 5057671 spqrusa
spqrusa's picture

Money is whatever two parties think it is. 

Thu, 08/07/2014 - 03:26 | 5057739 HardAssets
HardAssets's picture

"Money is whatever two parties think it is."

Yes, that's true.

Money isn't needed when two people have a 'coincidence of wants', that is, when they each have something that the other desires. In such cases, barter works great. But if this isn't the situation, that doesn't mean the two people can't trade with one another. One may give up what he has for an 'intermediate good' from the other. That is, a good which he can later trade for something that he wants. This is how the commodities gold and silver became money. They were desired for their own use, and also as generally valued intermeditate goods for use in barter. These metals have many physical properties that make them suitable for this including durability, divisibility, uniformity, scarcity, relative compactness, etc

This is much different than fiat currency that one is forced to accept (because it has no intrinsic value). When fiat is in operation, underneath it all is theft and tyranny.

 

Wed, 08/06/2014 - 20:47 | 5056775 Saucy-Jack
Saucy-Jack's picture

Steve needs to read up on Freegold. Until then, he sounds like an idiot talking about a gold fix.

Wed, 08/06/2014 - 21:37 | 5056951 SilverIsMoney
SilverIsMoney's picture

For real. The second people start talking about fixes of price you know they are ignorant...

Wed, 08/06/2014 - 20:52 | 5056790 potato
potato's picture

Who can explain why other countries, who do not adopt a gold standard, would be "left behind economically"? Forbes fails to explain this and it's not apparent.

"The Gold Standard could be restored first by legislation simply instructing the Fed to follow a price rule in conducting its monetary policy that would maintain a stable dollar price for gold."

Sounds like we're already there!

Wed, 08/06/2014 - 20:53 | 5056794 Jonesy
Jonesy's picture

Forbes is right about one thing, these people need to go to "re-education" camp, but himself included.  Goyim can only take so much.

Wed, 08/06/2014 - 21:02 | 5056821 villainvomit
villainvomit's picture

He'd be a fool to sell even if we were on a gold standard.  One stroke of a pen, with no warning is all it would take to end it, right ?

 

Wed, 08/06/2014 - 21:09 | 5056851 THE DORK OF CORK
THE DORK OF CORK's picture

 "Bernanke was a disaster...has totally mucked up the credit markets."

Why do you need credit markets if the population cannot afford to buy  previous production - nevermind future production.

Wed, 08/06/2014 - 21:09 | 5056852 Keltner Channel Surf
Keltner Channel Surf's picture

A gold bug, friends call him “Drew”

Hid Kruggerands right down the loo 

“No thief would dare

To look way down there”

. . . his plumber’s new Jaguar is blue 

Wed, 08/06/2014 - 21:13 | 5056863 db51
db51's picture

Jesus...we've gone full FUBAR.   We're all Doomed.

Wed, 08/06/2014 - 21:33 | 5056937 Quus Ant
Quus Ant's picture

I feel fine.

Wed, 08/06/2014 - 21:14 | 5056864 Al Huxley
Al Huxley's picture

Wow, even the rich guys are starting to take an interest in gold!  What's up with that?

Wed, 08/06/2014 - 21:36 | 5056944 SilverIsMoney
SilverIsMoney's picture

The old gold standard did not fail - fractional reserve banking killed it. You can't fractionally reserve gold. If we had been smart enough not to let the banks do that we'd have been fine. I always hear dopes talk about how the old gold standard failed but it really didn't fractional reserve banking did. Read Ron Paul's The Case for Gold for a more indepth look on how it all really went down...

Wed, 08/06/2014 - 21:44 | 5056979 THE DORK OF CORK
THE DORK OF CORK's picture

@Silver

You will find all Gold standard types want to lend their gold out...............i.e create credit.

The current failure is a result of a concentration of wealth........so a further concentration may not out work so well for most.

 

Wed, 08/06/2014 - 22:18 | 5057101 fukidontknow
fukidontknow's picture

The way she's giggling sounds like Steve's gonna get lucky. 

Thu, 08/07/2014 - 01:57 | 5057658 JoJoJo
JoJoJo's picture

Gold will again become our standard or it will be confiscated. Funny fiat cannot live with gold.  One has to go

Thu, 08/07/2014 - 08:18 | 5058034 orangegeek
orangegeek's picture

Sounds like Steve has a big position in gold and may need some upside to recover his losses.

 

Having a currency based on "who has the biggest pile of shiny metal in the basement" is a thing of the past.

 

The US is a military backed currency and will be the reserve for a very long time - despite how unpopular this is.

 

Rather than jump onto someone else's agenda (ie: the thickness of their wallet) go place a trade, make a profit and feed your own agenda. 

 

Life is more enjoyable that way.

Thu, 08/07/2014 - 11:07 | 5058911 GIABO
GIABO's picture

Ahhh... The opium drug dealers know as the Forbes family.

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