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Did Ukraine Attack Its Own Tanks? White House "Can't Confirm Russian Convoy Was Destroyed By Kiev"

Tyler Durden's picture


While today's trading session was marked by news which at first blush correlated with what may be the 2014 equivalent of the Archduke Ferdinand shooting, in retrospect the newsflow made painfully little sense. Let's recap:

  1. Yesterday afternoon, two UK reporters working for the Guardian and Telegraph, supposedly located by the border in east Ukraine, reported that they were "eyewitnesses" as a convoy of military trucks crossed the Russian border into the breakaway Donetsk republic, aka Ukraine. While there have been photos of the military trucks that have accompanied the Russian humantiarian convoy on Russian territory, there has so far been no proof, aside from said eyewitness reports, confirming Russian military vehicles entered or were in Ukraine.
  2. This morning Ukraine military’s spokesman, Andriy Lysenko, shocked the world when newswires reported that Ukraine forces had attacked an armed convoy from Russia, and "destroyed" a part of it. This was subsequently reiterated by the president of Ukraine himself who said that "the given information was trustworthy and confirmed because the majority of that machines had been eliminated by the Ukrainian artillery at night", and by the secretary-general of NATO, Anders Fogh Rasmussen, who said that the alliance had detected an “incursion” of vehicles from Russia last night, adding that “what we have seen last night is the continuation of what we have seen for some time." Alas, as in the case above, just more verbal reports, with zero actual evidence.
  3. Shortly thereafter, Russia responded when the Russian defense ministry said that there was no Russian military column that crossed into Eastern Ukraine, and that the above reports are based on "some fantasies."

This is where the breakdown of logic occurs, because for Russia to make such a formal statement it clearly implies that Russia believes there is no evidence of destruction of a Russian convoy in Ukraine territory, something which obviously would exist if indeed as Ukraine's president had claimed, the "majority of the machines had been eliminated."

If true, it also implies that either Ukraine had fabricated the entire story, and certainly the part about the destruction of the convoy and by extension that Russians had ever entered into East Ukraine. Furthermore, that would also suggest that the reports of the British reporters were also a fabrication.

Unless, of course, there is evidence, in which case the credibility of the both the Guardian and Telegraph reporters can be preserved, Ukraine can not be accused of fabricating a story to suit what some may say its own warmongering ambitions, and the onus is on Russia to explain why it lied about there being no invasion.

More to the point, the onus is on Ukraine to present some evidence, in fact any evidence, of a destroyed Russian military convoy instead of merely building upon a story conceived by the two UK media outlets, because if Ukraine indeed has no evidence, then its story falls apart and what's worse, the credibility and reputation of its government, of NATO and certainly of the UK press would be in tatters.

So what other possibility is there? Well, one that is all too unpalatable for Ukraine, namely that in its excitement to blow something up, it may have well destroyed some of its own military vehicles. A possible lead to such a turn of events comes from this Interfax report citing the leadership of the breakaway Donetsk People's Republic.

The leadership of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People's Republic has dismissed the Ukrainian government's statement on destroying a convoy of what appeared to be Russian armored vehicles in eastern Ukraine.


"We haven't received any armored vehicles from Russia. No Russian units, including Russian armored vehicles, have crossed the border. Hence, no Russian armored vehicles could have been destroyed," DPR First Deputy Prime Minister Andrei Purgin told Interfax on Friday evening.


Purgin claimed that, on the contrary, the militias destroyed about 100 Ukrainian armored vehicles.


"A lot of Ukrainian armored vehicles were destroyed today, 7 at one place, 12 at another. And the same all over the DPR territory. A total of about 100 of them," Purgin said.

The implication is clear: while 100 or so Ukraine armored vehicles may or may not have been destroyed, one wonders if indeed the Ukraine army was responsible in "aiding" the separatists with what would appear to be a friendly-fire incident?

But perhaps the most damning evidence comes from none other than the White House itself, which according to CNN just admitted that while it accuses Moscow of "incursions" it can't confirm the convoy was destroyed by Kiev.

Perhaps for the simplest reason that there is no evidence to help with the confirmation process?

Which is rather unpleasant, because as explained above, without confirmation of a destroyed convoy, the whole story falls apart as merely yet another unprecedented warmongering fabrication, one involving not only the Kiev regime, but NATO and the UK press as well!

What is worse, is that if indeed the specter arises that Ukraine is lying about an event that nearly gave the market a heart attack on the belief that a new international war involving Russia may be about to break out, was Ukraine also lying about flight MH-17. And else may the Kiev regime been lying about?


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Fri, 08/15/2014 - 19:08 | 5100151 stant
stant's picture

Either way the market got punked

Fri, 08/15/2014 - 19:12 | 5100171 SoilMyselfRotten
SoilMyselfRotten's picture

A Country would never lie and use it as a pre-text for war

Fri, 08/15/2014 - 19:18 | 5100183 813kml
813kml's picture

"We have met the enemy and he is us."

Fri, 08/15/2014 - 19:23 | 5100200 Bunghole
Bunghole's picture

Social media cant die quick enough for me.

FFS, the "media" has gone full retard.

Pawns on the chessboard.

Fri, 08/15/2014 - 19:27 | 5100249 knukles
knukles's picture

And how much do we spend a year for "intelligence"?

Fri, 08/15/2014 - 19:30 | 5100266 stant
stant's picture

The real Skynet is called monster mind I think rob zombie works for the NSA/ cia

Fri, 08/15/2014 - 19:39 | 5100296 bunzbunzbunz
bunzbunzbunz's picture

Wasn't it obvious that the tanks without picutures were possibly make believe?

So then if they were make believe, you say you destroyed them. This is a quelled mini-invasion from Russia. That way when Russia actually invades with the "aid" convoy, there will be less public backlash when Ukraine blows the fuck out of it. "Well, you saw them invade 3 days ago...we blew those tanks up. Obviously the white trucks were military too. SO we blew them up."

Not that they necessarily want to destroy it without more intelligence on what they are doing, but they know it is a possibility. So they must politically prepare for it.

Fri, 08/15/2014 - 19:48 | 5100332 palmereldritch
palmereldritch's picture

Simple mistake.  They thought that Malaysian Airways were now using tanks.

Fri, 08/15/2014 - 20:00 | 5100366 VATICANT
VATICANT's picture

Could they possibly get more desperate?

Fri, 08/15/2014 - 20:29 | 5100486 Elvis the Pelvis
Elvis the Pelvis's picture

Alex Jones believes it's a false flag.  Just saying.  Bitchez.

Fri, 08/15/2014 - 20:32 | 5100497 bunzbunzbunz
bunzbunzbunz's picture

Why would I care what any one who makes money talking about stuff "believes"?

Fri, 08/15/2014 - 20:38 | 5100522 Anusocracy
Anusocracy's picture

Did the tanks have MH-17 on their sides?

Fri, 08/15/2014 - 21:14 | 5100638 Patriot Eke
Patriot Eke's picture

According to the pro-resistance and pro-Russians in my circles, it certainly wasn't Russia's unit.  The media keeps using images of the humanitarian convoy too even though it is entirely separate.

Fri, 08/15/2014 - 21:18 | 5100670 espirit
espirit's picture

Ukrainian tanks got smoked?

Putin must have done it!

(just in from the Bizzaro News Network)

Fri, 08/15/2014 - 22:26 | 5100843 smlbizman
smlbizman's picture

completly off topic....steely fuckin dan rules.....never met napoleon but i plan to....

Sat, 08/16/2014 - 00:09 | 5101105 SilverFish
SilverFish's picture

I just saw them in concert tonight, actually.


Good show!

Sat, 08/16/2014 - 00:17 | 5101114 Save_America1st
Save_America1st's picture

And, of course, the Kiev NWO puppet regiMe would never blow "sometHing" up and b1ame it on Russia.....would they7


Sat, 08/16/2014 - 00:24 | 5101125 SilverFish
SilverFish's picture

This has nothing to do with Steely Dan whatsoever.

Sat, 08/16/2014 - 02:29 | 5101299 Squid-puppets a...
Squid-puppets a-go-go's picture

just shootin the breeze, but

maybe the Ukiez accidentally destroyed the private army of that filthy rich zionist bloke whose force has reputedly been stirring up shit in the region. What a fukn irony if so. If so, serves the zionist right for playing footsie with neo goddamn nazi


Sat, 08/16/2014 - 08:53 | 5101620 ndotken
ndotken's picture

And we're supposed to believe that the UK is going to give us an unbiased, unaltered, unedited transcript of the MH17 cockpit voice recorder?  Just how fucking stupid do they think we are?

Sat, 08/16/2014 - 14:09 | 5102564 aminorex
aminorex's picture

Zerohedge is overrun with Putin's propaganda army.  Tyler "Moscow" Durden is probably a Russian.  New York is swarming with ex-KGB, mafiosos, oligarchs and their whores living on the blood of Russian people.


Sat, 08/16/2014 - 22:30 | 5103683 conscious being
conscious being's picture

Weak sauce Mr. Disonformation Spin. These people you see in N.Y.! What a joke. Those would be the oligarch-kleptocrats that ran away with what they could carry when the new sherif, Vladomir Putin took over for the Russian people and chased these bastards out ... some of them. Some never made it across the border.

You're calling out the Zino-klepocrats of New York City and blaming their existance on Vlad? If there is a bigger fool than you in the world, I've yet to meet him. Your Zino-sponsor is being ripped off by the poor quality of your efforts. Try to come up with something that's not so stupid its boring. Thanks.

Sat, 08/16/2014 - 12:31 | 5102263 tonyw
tonyw's picture

You know, the best thing the ukrainian military could do is to destroy those private thugs.

Unfortunately i doubt this will happen, some of them may get "misdirected" into fierce fighting though :-)


Sat, 08/16/2014 - 08:32 | 5101587 Thee Barbarous Relic
Thee Barbarous Relic's picture

In the 1870s a dildo was known as a Steely Dan, in the 1970s two dildos were known as Steely Dan!

Fri, 08/15/2014 - 22:02 | 5100781 McMolotov
McMolotov's picture

Everyone and his dog has a cell phone and camera nowadays. This should have been easily verified with photographic evidence the minute it was reported. The fact that there weren't pictures should have clued everyone into the fact that the entire story was likely bullshit. We have satellites in orbit constantly taking pictures of this region. Where's the proof? It's the fucking MH17 thing all over again.

There's just as much proof that fucking aliens came out of the sky and blew shit up as there is that Kiev destroyed some Russian invaders.

We have some truly incompetent twats running things in the West, and frankly, I'm embarrassed for their sake. Useless cunts can't even pull off a proper false flag anymore.

Fri, 08/15/2014 - 22:35 | 5100856 Lore
Lore's picture

The constant, brazen lies remind me of an alcoholic who lies, lies, lies, so many lies in fact that he loses track of which lies he has told to which people, and the point is reached when nobody around him believes a word he says anymore.  These psychopaths have already lost, but they are in denial, like alcoholics.  They are in trouble so deep that they lie to themselves. Brainwashed Ukies should experience their Moment of Clarity this winter. It's supposedly gonna be a cold one.

Fri, 08/15/2014 - 22:41 | 5100889 Whoa Dammit
Whoa Dammit's picture

A Malaysian airline safety engineer's take on MH17 :

Sat, 08/16/2014 - 10:57 | 5101916 sushi
sushi's picture

Another analysis which looks at the position of the Buk launchers and concludes the only Buk within range belonged to the Ukraine armed forces:



Sat, 08/16/2014 - 12:35 | 5102277 tonyw
tonyw's picture

Not only do they have cellphones with cameras but the cellphones have GPS so an accurate location can easily be found and imprinted on the photos.

If real presstitute reporters don't have GPS located photos then I say it almost certainly didn't happen.

If we were being generous we could surmise they were misled by the lying junta.

Fri, 08/15/2014 - 22:45 | 5100900 Calmyourself
Calmyourself's picture

Excellent, apply this logic to the flight recorders and that spanish air controller in Kiev..

Sat, 08/16/2014 - 01:16 | 5101213 Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

Speaking of being embarrassed, Clancy must be spinning in his grave - given the epic stupidity and bumbling incompetence of the Bottom-Shelf Junta that's being funded and coached by the Bozos in Langley.

We'd have to laugh, if it weren't so tragic.

Sat, 08/16/2014 - 08:26 | 5101576 shovelhead
shovelhead's picture

Good point.

If Clancy were teaching a writing course and a student turned in a script with such cartoonish characters as appear in this story...


But I'll bet Clancy would like the Putin character. The supposedly bad guy who ends up looking like the only good guy with the only believable part in the script.

Sat, 08/16/2014 - 05:28 | 5101426 Tarshatha
Tarshatha's picture

"Everyone and his dog has a cell phone and camera nowadays"


The WH will be shortly releasing Youtube evedince.

Sat, 08/16/2014 - 10:48 | 5101886 logicalman
logicalman's picture

I don't have a dog or a cellphone.

Does that make me nobody?


Sat, 08/16/2014 - 10:53 | 5101907 TheReplacement
TheReplacement's picture

That makes you a perfect witness.  Get over there already.

Sat, 08/16/2014 - 12:01 | 5102149 frankly scarlet
frankly scarlet's picture

No cell phone for me either...I guess we both value our privacy such as it is, The dog part I live with as being more reliable than most (not all) of my own species.

Sat, 08/16/2014 - 00:55 | 5101151 Save_America1st
Save_America1st's picture

yep...that's been my theory since they've been saying that Ukraine fighter jets coerced the jet into that airspace and down to a certain altitude and were even hiding behind the jets radar snap. 

A few things about it all.  How is it that nobody has any video of a bright white puffy smoke trail from that huge supposed Buk rocket that shot the jet down??? 

A trail from a big missile or rocket like that lasts for what???  10, 20, 30 minutes or more in the sky as it wafts away down-wind in a long trail, right? 

They saw the jet fall out of the sky on fire and smash into the ground after it was shot down, right?  And there were no pictures or videos taken of the smoke trail from that big fucking rocket???  That trail would have lingered in the sky for at least 20 to 30 minutes after that jet crashed to the ground. I'm suspecting....a fighter jet shot the shit out of MH-17 with cannon fire and then blew it out of the sky with an air-to-air missile.  At 33,000 feet most people would not have seen that from the ground.  They wouldn't have hardly even known that a large passenger jet was up there let alone a tiny fighter jet and an even smaller air-to-air missile fired at it until it blew up in the air and fell out of the sky.

By then the fighter jet(s) would have peeled off and been long fucking gone. 

There were people all around on the ground as that jet fell out of the sky.  There has not been one photo or video showing the trail from the ground on up to the impact of the jet which would have come from a big-ass Buk missile.  Nothing.

I'm just not buying the story out of Ukraine/Kiev or the scumbag shit suckers in D.C. that Putin ordered or did this.  He had and has nothing to gain what-so-ever by doing something so sick.  He's been riding a higher world-wide rating for his actions than anyone else ever has.  He's been out-manuevering the NWO and their puppet, obamanation, at every turn since Syria.

Why in the fuck would he do something so stupid to change all that?

Or is it more likely...given the sociopath, psychopath, scum we all know we're dealing with in our own government and their psycho puppet masters...that due to Putin's popularity and success since Syria, that those fucking scumbags would pull a stunt like this and then get their state-run, propaganda, treasonous, media world-wide to all blame Putin at once and fabricate some fucked up story about it????

I don't trust any of them...and unfortunately, I trust the scum out of D.C. the least of all.  They're on the wrong side of everything anymore.  They're the cause of everything bad and wrong in the world and in America.  They are the terrorists of the world...they fund terrorism with our tax dollars and let the American people take the blame for their evil doings!  They're the evil who divides in order to conquer.  They're who try to creater order out of chaos.  They are who are doing everything they can to destroy whatever is left of our rights, freedom and liberty.

They are now the next in line in the history of this world who deserve this more than anyone's the only way to save not just the United States of America....but the only way to save this world:



IN CONGRESS, July 4, 1776.

The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America,

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,


--That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.


Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.  


But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.


--Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.
He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.
He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.
He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.
He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.
He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected; whereby the Legislative powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.
He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.
He has obstructed the Administration of Justice, by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary powers.
He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone, for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.
He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harrass our people, and eat out their substance.
He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the Consent of our legislatures.
He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil power.
He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:
For Quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:
For protecting them, by a mock Trial, from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:
For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:
For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:
For depriving us in many cases, of the benefits of Trial by Jury:
For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences
For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies:
For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws, and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:
For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.
He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.
He has plundered our seas, ravaged our Coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.
He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.
He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.
He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages, whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.

In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.

Nor have We been wanting in attentions to our Brittish brethren. We have warned them from time to time of attempts by their legislature to extend an unwarrantable jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the circumstances of our emigration and settlement here. We have appealed to their native justice and magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the ties of our common kindred to disavow these usurpations, which, would inevitably interrupt our connections and correspondence. They too have been deaf to the voice of justice and of consanguinity. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the necessity, which denounces our Separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of mankind, Enemies in War, in Peace Friends.

We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States; that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do.


And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.

Sat, 08/16/2014 - 02:32 | 5101302 Squid-puppets a...
Squid-puppets a-go-go's picture

ur right in your opening assertion that the lack of evidence of the BUK missile smoke trail is particularly damaging to the West's narrative

Sat, 08/16/2014 - 04:54 | 5101409 dogismycopilot
dogismycopilot's picture

For reference, here is what a BUK looks like launching....would be hard to miss!


Sat, 08/16/2014 - 11:57 | 5102130 americanspirit
americanspirit's picture

Thanks for that video dogismycopilot - pretty convincing smoke trail. And the explosion at intercept would EASILY have been seen even at 33,000 feet. I think it is more than clear that the US narrative is pure Bukshit.

Fri, 08/15/2014 - 21:30 | 5100704 tony wilson
tony wilson's picture

listen soldier eye drunk hicup hick ups ontangy tangerine drink it got alex jones fat face on der bottle it smells like human piss but tastes like

dog urine

alex married to a rabbi who is transgenenderoror

Fri, 08/15/2014 - 22:00 | 5100778 bunzbunzbunz
bunzbunzbunz's picture

Hush, You have nothing to say.

Sat, 08/16/2014 - 10:49 | 5101894 TheReplacement
TheReplacement's picture

You mean like the Tylers and the other people from whom they post articles?  And yet, here you are.

Fri, 08/15/2014 - 23:27 | 5101005 Whalley World
Whalley World's picture

Chicken Kiev

Fri, 08/15/2014 - 20:44 | 5100553 bunzbunzbunz
bunzbunzbunz's picture

Didn't you know?

MH370, MH17.......M is the 13th number, H is the 8th....

3, 7, 0, 1, 7, 1, 3, 8....

3+7+0-1 = 9.... 7+1+3=11... OMG 9/11....

Malaysia was behind 9/11!@#!@#

Malaysia and Ruger working together. The facts are inescapable.

Fri, 08/15/2014 - 21:05 | 5100622 palmereldritch
palmereldritch's picture

I did not know that*

(*voiced as a mid-70s Johnny Carson)

But I would like to know, Who is the Uke's glue sniffing Goebbels running that propaganda shit show?  Wow. Just embarrassing.

Fri, 08/15/2014 - 22:06 | 5100790 bunzbunzbunz
bunzbunzbunz's picture

Yes. Ukraine's propaganda is terrible. Russia hasn't had a good propaganda machine for a while. Putin is helping things out. Probably has something to do with the amount of money at each country's disposal though. 

Fri, 08/15/2014 - 23:45 | 5101054 Hook Line and S...
Hook Line and Sphincter's picture

Does Bunz bunz make fun of himself while he tries to dissuade you of the recognition that a rose (and the world) is constructed fractally.

Adding numbers together without any sense of how angles generate mathematics, and consequently the language of the brain is just embarrassing. 

What's this 'OMG'?

Did you just discover that Bunz got his head stuck in his bunz?

Sat, 08/16/2014 - 18:16 | 5103134 tvdog
tvdog's picture

Johnny Carson was a real prick, wasn't he? The good old days weren't so good after all.

Fri, 08/15/2014 - 20:52 | 5100577 McCormick No. 9
McCormick No. 9's picture


Sat, 08/16/2014 - 07:19 | 5101513 what's that smell
what's that smell's picture

full spectrum dominance of the information battlespace, bitches.

Stephen Falken: Uh, uh, General, what you see on zerohedge is a fantasy; a computer-enhanced hallucination. Those blips are not real russian tanks. They're phantoms. 

McKittrick:  Jack, there's nothing to indicate a simulation at all. Everything is working perfectly! 

Stephen Falken: But does it make any sense?

Sat, 08/16/2014 - 00:17 | 5101119 Duffy Duck
Duffy Duck's picture

absurd and retarded. 


Fri, 08/15/2014 - 19:43 | 5100308 The Big Ching-aso
The Big Ching-aso's picture

Seeing is not believing. Hearing is not understanding. Touching is not feeling.

What the hell all this means here I have no idea.

Fri, 08/15/2014 - 20:11 | 5100415 Aussie V
Aussie V's picture

The original report was made by Shaun Walker of the British Press and some other bloke.

Their report was that 24 Russian APC's had crossed into Ukraine accompanied by no photographic evidence. Don't you think if you were a reporter and you saw the APC's crossing the border you'd take a photo???

It is all bullshit but, every western media has swallowed the story rather than report that the Junta dropped Phosphorus bombs and Ballistic missiles on Donetsk last night.

AMAZING how ignorant the entire Western Media can be.

Fri, 08/15/2014 - 20:52 | 5100583 HamFistedIdiot
HamFistedIdiot's picture

Ignorance? Wasn't there a court case recently where it was ruled that our "media" is under no obligation to tell the truth?-That it is actually just entertainment and the viewers are responsible for their own conclusions and decisions?

As Michael Powell, former chairman of the FCC said, "The night after I was sworn in, I waited for a visit from the angel of the public interest. I waited all night, but she did not come..." 

Sat, 08/16/2014 - 03:22 | 5101349 conscious being
conscious being's picture

Not ignorant. Complicit in Tyranny, Terror and state sponsored mass murder.

Fri, 08/15/2014 - 20:54 | 5100592 McCormick No. 9
McCormick No. 9's picture

"AMAZING how ignorant the entire Western Media can be."

No, not really. If no mainstream western media wil report on 9-11 truth, then they have all willfully lobotomized themselves and made themselves completely irrelevant.

Sat, 08/16/2014 - 00:24 | 5100841 intric8
intric8's picture

Those false-flagging motherfuckers have been on a roll ever since.

Total lowlife tactics to get their end. The media is owned, so americans are kept in ignorance about these matters.

Poroshenkoberg is happy to employ such tactics locally. He would love to see the entire 'lowlife' ukraine population wiped out, less laborers for his candy factory.

No need for a fighting force. Americans will come to defend against russia. Poroshenko can create a second israeli nation there as well. Once the ukraine population is decimated.


Sat, 08/16/2014 - 18:50 | 5103238 tvdog
tvdog's picture

Poroshenko is securing the supply of hookers for Israeli brothels.

Fri, 08/15/2014 - 22:13 | 5100810 Aussie V
Aussie V's picture

Just to add to the above.

Ukrainian Forces, "It's all fucked up. The Russians are killing us!"

Sat, 08/16/2014 - 05:37 | 5101430 piliage
piliage's picture

BBC footage of Russian military hardware moving around the aid convoy. Also the eyewitness report of hardware crossing the boarder.

I don't buy the conspiracy theory. I think Putin sees Obama as weak, he knows Germany is in his corner (and the EU is as feckless as they come, they will say one thing and do another), and ultimately the EU has no ability to fight Russia without the US.

Putin will keep playing games with the West, and keep the pressure up on Ukraine as he knows Obama and the EU won't do a damn thing. When winter hits, and all data says this one will be brutal, he will win.

Hell, Belgium just lost a nuclear power station and may have power shortages in October. The EU has fucked it's energy policy, and handed all the cards to Putin. Obama is too fucking stupid to handle Putin, Putin knows it. EU politicians are whores who will bend over to the Russian bear to line their own pockets. Game over.

Perhaps the Obama administration can launch another of its devastating hash tag campaigns? [spit].

Sat, 08/16/2014 - 10:50 | 5101899 logicalman
logicalman's picture

If you knew anything about how the BBC 'covered' the Miners' Strike, especially Orgreave Colliery, you wouldn't trust the buggers to tell you the time.

Sat, 08/16/2014 - 15:31 | 5102763 SofaPapa
SofaPapa's picture

The BBC footage you cite shows nothing particularly useful.

Sat, 08/16/2014 - 10:59 | 5101923 TheReplacement
TheReplacement's picture

Doctors without Borders

Reporters without Cameras

Sat, 08/16/2014 - 06:30 | 5101471 danpos
danpos's picture

Seeing is believing.*


*unless you have Photoshop

Fri, 08/15/2014 - 19:59 | 5100363 MFL5591
MFL5591's picture

The tyrant can have his NSA find a nat on an elephants ass in the congo but, cant see with all its spy gear what is going on in the Ukraine?  BULLSHIT!!!!!!

Sat, 08/16/2014 - 02:21 | 5101289 barre-de-rire
barre-de-rire's picture

as said, usa can send satelite to 6 billion kilometer to land on an asteroid,  takes samples & jump the fuck out to go back earth with a 12years old technology but cannot track a fucking mh370 over an ocean.


hmmm... yea...sure...

Sat, 08/16/2014 - 05:50 | 5101440 piliage
piliage's picture

Of course they see it. What the hell can they do about it? Do you honestly think Germany will authorize fly over rights for the US to get in a shooting war with Russia over the Ukraine? Germany is still where most of the NATO troops are based.

What's in it for Obama to show the classified intel of the Russian troop transports crossing the boarder? He can't manipulate his base for votes (like he can in St. Louis), he can't do anything about it in Europe as he's fucked EU relations so bad nobody trusts him, and Putin called his bluff in Syria and Obama went down like a $5 whore. He's got nothing but his bullshit political activism in the US to fall back on. Putin just needs to keep the pressure on until November when the winter hits, then game over.

Sat, 08/16/2014 - 02:18 | 5101278 barre-de-rire
barre-de-rire's picture

"pawns on chessboard "


cleary evident you do not know chessgame.


you cannot win any fucking single game without pawns,  idiot.

keep rainbow loom hobby... best for your brain skills

Fri, 08/15/2014 - 21:16 | 5100660 kchrisc
kchrisc's picture

"I have met the enemy and it is those that profit from it."

An American, not US subject.

Fri, 08/15/2014 - 19:21 | 5100209 Jonesy
Jonesy's picture

Countries don't lie, cunts do.  I hope Putin stays  focused on the assholes that overthrew Russia long before the "evil Hitler" shit his first diaper.

Fri, 08/15/2014 - 19:26 | 5100235 Jonesy
Jonesy's picture

This just in regarding poor Michael Brown:

Or you could believe Jew media.



Fri, 08/15/2014 - 19:42 | 5100301 bunzbunzbunz
bunzbunzbunz's picture

Oh gosh, are you advertising your own racist tripe website?

I saw this on google news all day. Only without the racist horseshit. Fuck off.

Fri, 08/15/2014 - 19:53 | 5100349 Jonesy
Jonesy's picture

My own racist Tribe website?  

Fri, 08/15/2014 - 20:15 | 5100433 bunzbunzbunz
bunzbunzbunz's picture

Sure buddy. why not. I know words are hard for people with ineffectual brains. Keep on keepin' on. Get err done. Whatever you say with your smart buddies/cohorts/people who are aligned with you in an attempt to profit from hate and misunderstanding.

Fri, 08/15/2014 - 23:14 | 5100976 Enceladus
Enceladus's picture

Tripe aka cow stomach or a stinky diner in an Italian resturant

See Im racyst too

Fri, 08/15/2014 - 19:46 | 5100309 oddjob
oddjob's picture

That's awesome you support summary execution in the streets, see you there.


Fri, 08/15/2014 - 20:23 | 5100470 bunzbunzbunz
bunzbunzbunz's picture

This is just an example of an event where agreeing with a side makes you wrong.

Fri, 08/15/2014 - 20:45 | 5100555 oddjob
oddjob's picture

There is no right or wrong once the social contract has been broken. Scary stuff indeed.

Sat, 08/16/2014 - 02:34 | 5101306 Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

The Social Contract is only broken when good people stop rebuilding it, to offset the damage done to it by sociopaths.

What each of us has to decide, is if we're part of the problem or part of the solution. Fence sitters, the confused and freeloaders get "null points" (no points).

Sat, 08/16/2014 - 10:37 | 5101839 Tall Tom
Tall Tom's picture

Uh...Excuse me?


I seem to have misplaced my copy of the Social Contract.


In fact I do not recollect ever signing one or agreeing to one.


I need my copy so that I can verify my sgnature. If that signature exists I am sure that it is a forgery since I never signed a Social Contract.


(That is a Blue Team construct. I am not a socialist.)

Sat, 08/16/2014 - 12:34 | 5102278 TheReplacement
TheReplacement's picture

Kirk has a valid point.  You have family, no?  You have friends, no?  You have neighbors, no?  You have an implied social contract with everyone you know.  You treat them as you wish them to treat you.  You stand up for or against them as you would have them stand for or against others or you.  Do unto others.  It really is quite simple unless you are a hermit.  You must not be a hermit as you are participating in the ZH community.  You have tacitly agreed to the implied social contract by participating in society.

Sat, 08/16/2014 - 13:37 | 5102466 oddjob
oddjob's picture

Kirk is an apologist serving platitudes to those willing to lap them up. I am not sure what will be worse, the grim future or listening to those whining and bemoaning but i had no idea.

Sat, 08/16/2014 - 18:56 | 5103257 tvdog
tvdog's picture


I like your reasoning. If people treat you like crap, and no one stands up for you, then you have no social contract with them.

Sat, 08/16/2014 - 08:46 | 5101609 shovelhead
shovelhead's picture

 There's one kid who will never steal a box of cigars again.

He hadn't adapted to the new reality of law enforcement.

Steal 10 billion, win Man of the Year.

Steal a box of cigars, win a dirt blanket.

Fri, 08/15/2014 - 19:23 | 5100216 hobopants
hobopants's picture

What matters is what the people on both sides think happened, not the evidence. Evidence has yet to stop a war from happening, and I don't think it will start now.

"The first casualty of war is truth."

Fri, 08/15/2014 - 20:41 | 5100540 The Blank Stare
The Blank Stare's picture

"Que the deer!"

Then que "Who Are You" by the Who.

Fri, 08/15/2014 - 22:08 | 5100800 bunzbunzbunz
bunzbunzbunz's picture

You know que is 'what' in spanish right? I think you mean 'cue' or perhaps queue.

Sat, 08/16/2014 - 07:43 | 5100399 Normalcy Bias
Normalcy Bias's picture


Fri, 08/15/2014 - 23:34 | 5101023 August
August's picture

>>>A Country would never lie and use it as a pre-text for war.

Lets's be a little discriminating here, OK?

It's a truism that certain low-end oligarchies (e.g. Russia, China) would not hesitate to stage false flag events, or brazenly lie, in order to achieve foreign policy goals, but America and its NATO allies?  Never! 

And the mere insinuation that credentialled journalists could be complicit is an affront to the entire Infotainment Industry throughout the Free World.

Fri, 08/15/2014 - 19:16 | 5100178 LetThemEatRand
LetThemEatRand's picture

Hot Ukrainian on Ukrainian action.  I think there's an ad for a website about that somewhere here in the rotation.

Fri, 08/15/2014 - 19:25 | 5100226 Ignatius
Ignatius's picture

Young Asian women are trying to meet... me?

Fri, 08/15/2014 - 19:30 | 5100261 knukles
knukles's picture

Middle eastern via Mexico and Africa.
Exchange much spit for nookie.  She promise she been virgin many times for you nice American boy.
kiss kiss drool

Fri, 08/15/2014 - 19:18 | 5100196 cossack55
cossack55's picture

As the old saying goes....


The first casulaty in war is the taxpayer.

Sat, 08/16/2014 - 17:28 | 5103002 actionjacksonbrownie
actionjacksonbrownie's picture

Actually... it's the taxpayer's kids. The taxpayer needs to kepp working, paying taxes, and building bombs to blow their kids up with.

Fri, 08/15/2014 - 19:51 | 5100337 percyklein
percyklein's picture

Algoes. Aren't they great?

Fri, 08/15/2014 - 20:09 | 5100406 tempo
tempo's picture

Futures open up 10 on Sunday,

Fri, 08/15/2014 - 20:19 | 5100451 NEKO
NEKO's picture

Shame on you "Guardian" and shame on you "Telegraph". The world is waking up to the lies and sleight of hand used to start wars. You have acted as promoters of misinformation offered as news - for a newspaper that is almost the ultimate crime. I will never read your crap again.

Fri, 08/15/2014 - 21:32 | 5100712 tony wilson
tony wilson's picture

rothschild told soros soros contact his rabbi contacts within both newspapers simples init

Fri, 08/15/2014 - 20:47 | 5100563 Buck Johnson
Buck Johnson's picture


Fri, 08/15/2014 - 21:08 | 5100631 williambanzai7
williambanzai7's picture

Fri, 08/15/2014 - 21:42 | 5100741 palmereldritch
palmereldritch's picture

Petro Punka's Schlockolate Factory

Fri, 08/15/2014 - 21:48 | 5100754 ebear
Fri, 08/15/2014 - 21:39 | 5100731 omniversling
omniversling's picture

Who knows what MI5/6 NSA/5eyes has on journos or editors who used to be 'objective' and 'honest' in their reporting. Days of 'innocence' are over...Fogh of War...

Sat, 08/16/2014 - 08:19 | 5101568 doctor10
doctor10's picture

Its not too bizarre when you recall that Christine LaGarde(IMF) basicallt told the Uki gov'mt it was paying for "results". She wasn't sufficiently explicit as to exactly which results.

Fri, 08/15/2014 - 19:08 | 5100152 Cattender
Cattender's picture

How will this Impact OBunga's Golf Vacation?

Fri, 08/15/2014 - 19:58 | 5100358 MFL5591
MFL5591's picture

He is a digusting fraud and nothing more

Fri, 08/15/2014 - 19:10 | 5100153 Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

That was fast, Tyler!

Fri, 08/15/2014 - 19:07 | 5100148 new Kirk2NCC1701
TYLER, it's 1900 Hrs (7 PM EST), and some of us Ukraineholics(c) would appreciate an UPDATE, SVP.  :-)

"Ukraineholics" (c) 2014 -Kirk

Sat, 08/16/2014 - 10:43 | 5101865 Tall Tom
Tall Tom's picture

You should be flattered.


Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.


They read what you write and take it seriously.

Fri, 08/15/2014 - 19:10 | 5100156 One And Only
One And Only's picture

Haha. This was my first thought. I commented on it earlier. 

No reason Russia would lie about this. They've been provoking Ukraine for an excuse to send in the big guns. 

Ukraine just fucking Plaxico Burressed itself. 

Fri, 08/15/2014 - 19:14 | 5100180 813kml
813kml's picture

+1 for Plaxicoed

It seems that Ukraine Nazis have been watching too much Hogan's Heroes.  

Fri, 08/15/2014 - 19:09 | 5100157 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

   Wash off paint, isn't out of the question. 

   Fred Sanford loved his white" shoe polish"...

Fri, 08/15/2014 - 19:10 | 5100161 pashley1411
pashley1411's picture

Probably the best conclusion is that the instant news cycle doesn't work real well with the messiness of war.

Fri, 08/15/2014 - 19:49 | 5100330 Matt
Matt's picture

It is good to have instant news, countered by nightly news, countered by historical reflection years afterwards, I think.

Anything not fresh is suspect, since it can be created in a studio. After a long time, perspective alters recollections, and it matters a lot less.

Fri, 08/15/2014 - 19:13 | 5100172 Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

I'm sure that the alleged Evidence will be released right after they release the results from the Black Box of MH17.

Fri, 08/15/2014 - 19:21 | 5100207 logicalman
logicalman's picture

Maybe they were using the same model recorder as the one on the Brazilian presidential candidates plane.

Hang on a sec.....

there's a funny smell around here.

Fri, 08/15/2014 - 19:48 | 5100329 HumanResourceProblem
HumanResourceProblem's picture

Yes indeed. Where IS that black box report?

Fri, 08/15/2014 - 21:26 | 5100693 espirit
espirit's picture

What Black Box?

That's sooo last month.

Can't wait for the Uke's to splain how they misguided their artillery.

Fri, 08/15/2014 - 19:13 | 5100173 salvadordaly
salvadordaly's picture

With everything that is gone on in that part of the world. I do know this, I know who not to believe!

Fri, 08/15/2014 - 19:22 | 5100214 logicalman
logicalman's picture

That would be all governments and all MSM

Am I right?

Fri, 08/15/2014 - 23:45 | 5101046 August
August's picture

Well you can certainly apply the sacred, rarely-voiced, dictum of the EU leadership class:

When things get serious, you have to lie.

A good rule of thumb, going forward. 

And I shudder to think that, one day, America itself might be ruled by such men.

Sat, 08/16/2014 - 03:26 | 5101352 conscious being
conscious being's picture

August, your last line is crazy. Please explain. Both countries are, for now, ruled  by the same group.

Fri, 08/15/2014 - 22:50 | 5100174 nmewn
nmewn's picture




Its an acorn for Ukrainian Squirrels!!!


If I said it was a KGB/FSB acorn, would that make it any better to choke down?


I'll take that as a no? ;-)

Fri, 08/15/2014 - 19:13 | 5100175 George Washington
George Washington's picture

Ha ha! Ukraine busted yet again ...

Fri, 08/15/2014 - 19:33 | 5100248 Ignatius
Ignatius's picture

This internet thingy is sure messin' with the shameless liars' programs.

Fri, 08/15/2014 - 20:09 | 5100407 SilverDOG
SilverDOG's picture

The USAKraine you certainly must mean.

Or UKKraine.

Or NATOKraine.

It is just an oligarch game, and bank failure is part of such.

War will cover all their tracks... with blood.


Sat, 08/16/2014 - 03:34 | 5101364 conscious being
conscious being's picture

Or Zinokraine.

Given the KaganKnoodlemanites, and the ChocoPornKing are all avid, rabid Zionists.

Who can say this is not a Zionist plot in defense of the petro$ --> Central Bank System / Anglo-Zino system? Who can deny? Who can deny?

Fri, 08/15/2014 - 19:14 | 5100179 IridiumRebel
IridiumRebel's picture

What a bunch of assholes. You cannot make this shit up! WTF is going on with this country. I'm moving.

Fri, 08/15/2014 - 19:16 | 5100186 stant
stant's picture

Lol #armagetinoutahere

Fri, 08/15/2014 - 19:23 | 5100184 silverserfer
silverserfer's picture

This is textboox Eastern European style False flag which typically invloves a tank, a midget, 1 case of vodka, a bodybuilder, a gypsy and a politican. 

Fri, 08/15/2014 - 19:24 | 5100225 logicalman
logicalman's picture

If that's true, they sure do false flags a lot cheaper than US, I guess

Fri, 08/15/2014 - 19:52 | 5100341 swmnguy
swmnguy's picture

You forgot the case of grapefruits and the Gerber Mini-magnum.

Fri, 08/15/2014 - 21:28 | 5100701 espirit
espirit's picture

Where's the Hooker in this story?

Got to be one somewhere.

Fri, 08/15/2014 - 22:29 | 5100850 cro_maat
cro_maat's picture

In the tank with the midget.

Sat, 08/16/2014 - 02:15 | 5101235 silverserfer
silverserfer's picture

BTW, where the FUCK is Boris Alotovkrap!? Gulags?

Wife-wench cut off fingers for too much stinky-pink? 

Fri, 08/15/2014 - 19:17 | 5100187 tony wilson
tony wilson's picture

a reader comment from the saker blog.


Anonymous said...The Jewish owned 'Guardian' and 'Telegraph' newspapers published in the UK pretend to be on opposite ends of the political spectrum. However, curiously, they partnered together yesterday to sell the lie of a Russian military invasion of Ukraine.

Today, the puppet head of the Ukraine parliament phoned the puppet head of the UK government (Nick Clegg- a very senior lieutenant of Tony Blair- is the real leader of the so-called 'coalition') to say the Ukraine military had intercepted and eliminated the Russian armoured column.

What many of you here will fail to realise is that when you control the entire mass media, you can construct a false flag with words alone- you don't even have to blow up anything real.

A quick check via Google, and the so-called 'sceptical' forums shows the false flag has worked perfectly, and people on all sides of the issue have accepted the truth of the psy-op. All the major news organisations are reporting the fantasy as true. Both pro and anti-Russian forum members are, at a 99 percentile, accepting the psy-op as real.

Meanwhile, on sites that actually bother to report REAL news from Novorussia, it is clear the defenders have once again managed to achieve stunning success against the neo-Nazis, and have captured Kiev saboteur teams who were sent to attack Putin's 'flotilla'.

It is clear Kiev intended to allow the Humanitarian convoy into Ukraine once these saboteur squads were in place and active, and then the Jewish controlled mainstream media outlets were going to blame the resistance for the attacks on the convoy. The BBC was all prepared to report that the mine and IED attacks on the trucks was either down to resistance efforts to block transport routes OR a resistance false flag to blame Kiev for the attacks.

I cannot stress strongly enough that today, 99.9% of the sheeple that rely on the Jewish controlled mainstream media outlets, now believe Russia invaded Ukraine, and was blasted to bits by the 'brave' warriors of Kiev. Meanwhile, the idiotic response of Russian counter-propaganda forces is to say "who can be so stupid as to believe such nonsense?". Psy-ops are used because psy-ops work, *IF* one successfully controls the mass media outlets.



Fri, 08/15/2014 - 19:26 | 5100243 logicalman
logicalman's picture

Believe non of what you read, and half of what you see.

Can't claim that as my own, but I don't remember to whom the credit should go.

Fri, 08/15/2014 - 19:53 | 5100345 swmnguy
swmnguy's picture

I think that's a Ben Franklin quote, but I heard it most memorably in a song on Lou Reed's "New York" album.

Fri, 08/15/2014 - 20:38 | 5100524 cornedmutton
cornedmutton's picture

"Not every twitter can thou believest."

- Plato

Fri, 08/15/2014 - 22:56 | 5100719 vic and blood
vic and blood's picture

I can't find the quote in Bartletts. I can't find anything scholarly on the internet, but many sources claim that Dinah Mulock Craik, a 19th century fiction writer, is the author of that aphorism.

Fri, 08/15/2014 - 19:37 | 5100285 Keyser
Keyser's picture

Albania? Why are we going to war with Albania?  

We're not gonna have a war, we're gonna have the "appearance" of a war. It's a Pageant... 

Fri, 08/15/2014 - 19:40 | 5100295 Jack Burton
Jack Burton's picture

Nice find Tony! Stay on the case, the zionest connection to the Ukraine civil war is under reported. Once the Kiev coup succeeded, several Israeli-Ukrainians flew home to take posts in the new fascist government of Kiev. Mossad has, for 20 years, worked in Western Ukraine to fund and encourage the rise of fascism there. In this they worked hand in glove with the CIA, MI6 and Poland. The fruits of these billions spent was to educated new generations into the nazi movement and expand it's spread across West Ukraine. The result they sought is being played out in Donbass right now. Israeli and it's zionests are like high priests of the Ukie Fascist Movement.

Fri, 08/15/2014 - 19:43 | 5100310 logicalman
logicalman's picture

Zio-connections are always under-reported because of the control of he media by...............

Fri, 08/15/2014 - 20:35 | 5100509 general ambivalent
general ambivalent's picture

Any further reading material available on Mossad funding fascist groups over twenty years?


Sat, 08/16/2014 - 03:46 | 5101373 conscious being
conscious being's picture

Good question, but any fair person would have to  admit that the Zinologists are neck deep in this Ukraine fiasco on the Kiev Junta side, starting with Victoria Kagan-Noodleman and by her own admission, $5B, putting the Junta in power.

This has been about taking down Russia from the beginning. The Ukraine is just the stepping stone.

Fri, 08/15/2014 - 20:03 | 5100378 bunzbunzbunz
bunzbunzbunz's picture


Are you really trying to tell me that zionists are the ONLY people that would attempt to control media? Are you really trying to tell me that the sources you get your "news" from have no bias? No agenda?

If you are against the zionist control of anything, isn't that an agenda in itself?

By being against something, don't you tend to follow, understand, believe things that agree with you? That would be the case for both sides of any issue. And therefore, both sides would believe lies.

Do NOT follow this link or you will be banned from the site!