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The Geography Of Jobs: Mapping The Recovery

Tyler Durden's picture




 

The current 'boom'in energy production, the hangover from the housing bubble, and the long-term decline in manufacturing employment are combining to shift the employment profile of the US economy. But as Deloitte Unioversity press notes, the national story of slow recovery obscures the more complicated regional picture: As is the case during most business cycles, the pace of recovery has been very uneven among the states. At present, only 16 states plus the District of Columbia have employment rates at least one percent higher than they were prior to the start of the recession. Overall, as the following chart shows, Americans have been struggling to find work, but some states and industries have had an easier time than others.

 

 

Source: Deloitte University Press

 

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Sun, 08/17/2014 - 14:11 | 5105528 takeaction
takeaction's picture

I see "Hiring" signs everywhere...the problem is this...the low wage jobs...people would rather sit on their ass and collect a check...or it is a different situation like the one I am in.  I have been looking for good salesman and car stereo installers for 6 months.  Qualified people are not out there.  

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 14:16 | 5105549 insanelysane
insanelysane's picture

My wife hired someone that had been out of a job in medical field for 2 years.  Person said they found another job after a week of working and left.  HR calls my wife the next week and says what happened?  The person filed for unemployment.  Working is for suckers.  Wife's company is fighting it.

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 14:34 | 5105588 Skateboarder
Skateboarder's picture

Welcome to Amerika. Please leave your work ethic at the door.

Your post sums up the modern work ethic and the scam2earn mentality all too well. Thanks for the story.

Plus, the young generation has drank the entitlement kool-aid. It used to be that you worked hard, provided good services or products, and "moved up" by the nature of your work - largely speaking as a lowly pleb like myself would see it. Now you walk outta college with your mighty degree in bullshiting and drinking games, and you gotta be a "manager" right out of the blocks. That's if you can get a job at all. Back to the parents, with an overinflated ego and self-worth well stuffed in you by University Inc.

It's all fucked up out there.

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 14:42 | 5105630 chunga
chunga's picture

FWIW...wife got home yesterday and was pissed. She's never pissed but this time she was.

She learned that a completely non-essential person is making more money than she is. The person I speak of has an associates degree in MARKETING and COMMUNICATION. Forgive the CAPS but it pissed me off too. Wife is a BSN/RN, unblemished record of high responsibility positions. Something is wrong with the priorities there that is making responsible and skilled pros wnat to say fuck it. The other person brings sandwiches and pastries to doctor offices; so she makes more bascially doing graft/bribery/fraud.

 

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 14:47 | 5105649 Escrava Isaura
Escrava Isaura's picture

chunga,

You had a great story there until you introduced sandwiches.

if that person is in MARKETING and COMMUNICATION, he/she will definitely make more money than a nurse.

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 14:54 | 5105665 FredFlintstone
FredFlintstone's picture

An associates degree in a field where thousands with a BA/BS degree can't find a job? She sounds connected.

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 15:01 | 5105684 MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

@Chunga

This is the problem with our monetary policy, among other things.  Certain jobs end up paying a lot more than others without relation to productivity nor how critical the job is within the overall scheme of the organization.  This is why specialists become general practitioners after insurance clamps down on reimbursements for certain specialized procedures...  the main way to earn a good living at this point is to arbitrage those jobs where you don't have to do anything, but pay the same as your intended/qualified field.  There are a lot of arbitrage opportunities...

PS, there is no justice...  so if that's what she's after, then she'll always be disappointed with someone else's organization/bureaucracy. 

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 15:06 | 5105695 FredFlintstone
FredFlintstone's picture

Can you elaborate on the arbitrage opportunities and provide an example or two? My curiosity is piqued.

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 15:41 | 5105812 Keyser
Keyser's picture

This is what happens when you pay people to sit on their ass... No morals, no ethics, no pride and no hope... 

I have a ex-friend that has been unemployed for over a year... He was offered his job back from his old employer after being on unemployment for 6 weeks, but he declined...  Now he is trying to figure out what to do now that his 55 weeks of UI is running out... I say ex-friend because I don't associate with folks with moral turpitude...  

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 15:58 | 5105836 Skateboarder
Skateboarder's picture

I gave > 50K to a friend over three years time (two full years of rent and expenses in those three). This is a >150 IQ polymath. He didn't look for a job or try to stand up on his own feet. I cut him off last month after seeing that this was going nowhere. He doesn't get to talk to me until he stands up on his feet and stays there.

Even the greatest of people will sit on their ass and do nothing, as long as the free rent keeps coming.

I learned the hard way that you shouldn't give someone Something for Nothing without a good measure of hard work involved on their part. (all hail Rush).

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 16:33 | 5105963 shovelhead
shovelhead's picture

No matter how high his IQ...

He proved he was smarter than you.

I hope by posting this rhyme

That you'll be smarter next time.

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 18:27 | 5106323 Skateboarder
Skateboarder's picture

Let me finish off the punchline and make it a limerick:

"And save yourself a buck or two." ;-)

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 19:24 | 5106472 CheapBastard
CheapBastard's picture

@chunga

 

I hear you on that point. My Family doc is closing up shop and going to work for a hospital. Said he's losng money with all the overhead, paying for his own pension plan, his own health benefits and employees, etc ... while his son who just graduated in Marketing is beginning this Fall at $78k.

He now regrets spending all those years studying, pressure, loans, etc. To me this means society's priorites are screwed up when you see stuff like this; so who here in merika is going to want to go into medicine in the future ... except for foreign grads who will do anything to get out of the Bombay slums and come here for half the salary? Just like seeing truck drivers in Australia paid more then a heart surgeon earns there. 

WTF!

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 19:43 | 5106517 MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

He needs to find an honest business adviser.  In my experience, doctors know how to practice medicine and pretty much nothing else in life.  However, the M.D. tends to instill the notion in them that they can do everything very well, which makes diagnosing their problems before they file for BK a bit tricky.

The flip side is that doctors are probably THE most exploited class...  they get raped from every professional they see.  In the modern era, most successful professionals don't charge by the service, but what they expect the client can pay.  Narcissism is great if you're a driven person, but it's hell when you have to convince yourself that you're being taken advantage of...  how do you get one over on god? 

For some reason, doctors are all too happy to throw their practices away to a larger entity and then, five years down the road, complain that the bargain wasn't all it was cracked up to be...  they've run through the up front money and now hate working for someone else.  It's kind of like trying to go live back at home after you've moved out...  if you can stand more than a couple weeks of it, then there's something wrong with you.

 

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 20:04 | 5106556 Richard Chesler
Richard Chesler's picture

Hope and change bitchez!

 

During the Obama administration, according to Pentagon data, police departments have received tens of thousands of machine guns; nearly 200,000 ammunition magazines; thousands of pieces of camouflage and night-vision equipment; and hundreds of silencers, armored cars and aircraft.

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/06/09/us/war-gear-flows-to-police-departm...


Mon, 08/18/2014 - 00:56 | 5107488 AldousHuxley
AldousHuxley's picture

that doctors are probably THE most exploited class...

they sit at the beginning and the end of one's life and extract all they can.

 

Myth: doctors save lives"

Truth: everyone eventually dies, doctors just delay the inevitable

 

Myth: doctors deserve all that money because of education

Truth: on the job work experience always trump education and there are plenty of those who are educated yet do not join the 1% $300k/year salary. If your janitor got himself an phD in janitorial studies, are you willing to pay him 10X market rate?

 

Myth: doctors deserve the money because they have debt in medical degrees

True, but it is a professional degree to make money for themselves. and the REAL training and education is funded by MEDICARE MEDICAID funds by the government during residency. They love to bitch about how they don't get paid, except they don't tell you they are getting government funded internship AND getting living wages.

 

Myth: you want the smartest people to become doctors

Truth: what's the difference between top 1% graduates VS top 2% graduates? Doctors artificially limit supply of entrance into their profession to keep the wages artificially high. Remember they are not inventing cures, just following common orders to prescribe.

 

Myth: you will have access to the best doctors in the world

Truth: Saudi royals get the world class doctors. You will get the bottom 90 percentile of regular doctors no better than many in advanced countries like Japan, Germany, etc.

 

Myth: doctors cure people

Truth: drugs are created by bio engineers working for big pharma, and procedures are created by research doctors at universities who get paid less than full practicising doctors. To make better cars, do you want to pay engin designers or your local mechanic?

 

Myth: doctors make whatever the market will bear since we live in a free market capitalism

Truth: doctors enjoy subsized years of training from MEDICARE MEDICAID funds, increased revenue due to government subsidies for tax-free exemptions of many services (hospitals are tax-exempt, drugs can be paid with tax-exempt funds like FSA, medical services can be paid with tax-exempt funds, hospitals get to write off unpaid services, government subsidizes hospitals in poor areas) Imagine that you can buy GM cars without tax, GM dealers get tax-exempt status (in US, cars are a necessity), auto-mechanics get 4 years of paid internship, and your taxes also pay for services, parts, and shop buildings for poor people. Imagine how much they can jack up from market based prices.

 

Myth: I can't get medical services because of high insurance

Truth: insurance is high because medical service prices are high because doctors are effectively unionized. COST CONTROL must come from LOWERING OF LABOR WAGES. 

 

Myth: Doctors have god complex

Truth: Yes they do without realizing that they live in government protected industry while everyone else is on cut-throat market competition

 

Myth: everyone deserves to live as long as possible

Truth: do you really want to live like a vegetable at age 120 while depleting all of your inheritance to better the world and your children on people who promise year 121 is going to be worth the millions?

 

SOLUTION:

4X MORE SPECIALIZED DOCTORS with NARROWER specialties (any monkey can become really really good at one thing after a while),

single pay option SINCE GOVERNMENT IS PAYING HALF OF MEDICAL COSTS ANYWAY (either through tax exemptions or direct funds in research, hospital buildings, medicare/medicaid)

LIMIT life support until AGE 90. beyond that you pay on your own if you want to.

 

A GOOD Book is not a LONG Book.

Mon, 08/18/2014 - 09:47 | 5108355 MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

You're preaching to the choir bud...  I didn't say that doctors don't do their fair share of exploiting too (probably dramatically more than most all other professions - an issue I bring up routinely on this site regarding fraudulent billing under the auspices of "defensive medicine").  However, I'm certain that there are plenty of financial types on here that have stuffed some docs' portfolios full of shit to bang out a few extra bucks...  or other professionals that have gang raped the docs coming and going on fees of all sorts...  or their spendthrift wives...  I suppose this gets back to the question of whether it's really stealing if you're just taking your own bike back.

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 19:58 | 5106546 willwork4food
willwork4food's picture

Does this mean you are taking applications for new friends? I'm available!

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 22:01 | 5106835 Blano
Blano's picture

Can I be your friend?  It'll only cost you about 10K.  Quite the bargain there.  : )

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 23:11 | 5107078 Skateboarder
Skateboarder's picture

Y'all like buy one get one free. ;-)

I haven't saved a dime in those three years. I'm just starting now. Will let you guys know if I'm in interested in taking on more friends in the future lol.

Mon, 08/18/2014 - 05:37 | 5107745 theminister
theminister's picture

You had me at Rush.

Everything else you might have written was just blah, blah, blah, "all hail Rush" blah, blah.

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 19:35 | 5106495 MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

@FredFlinstone

Yeah.  Many of the opportunities have to deal with out of state/multinational corporations in a smallerish town.  While you would think they're perfectly capable of gauging the local market and pricing accordingly, they tend to overshoot for areas where the cost of living is lower (flyover states).  For example, there was a job being the regional manager of sonic drive-thrus...  would manage 4-5 shops...  paid...  $250k.  What education is necessary?  None really...  look at some books, manage inventory levels, crack some heads...  pretty much a jerk off position in comparison to many things.  Same for the manager of a lot of chain restaurants and retail stores...  pay way too much for what you're expected to do...  here, they would pay about 1.5-2x the average family income.

Have you compared professional jobs with academic?  Especially for the business department (humanities are often below the poverty threshhold), the salaries are hilariously overpriced.  Granted, it's a year-to-year contract, but the local university pays $115k+/yr for an associate accounting, business law, econ, management, or finance professor.  A cpa with a decent sized practice or a cpa working in industry would actually have to work the whole year to make 3/4 of that.  A financial planner probably wouldn't get close...  a senior vp of a TARP bank might make that...

You just have to look for the honey pot and strike now...  drop what you're doing and exploit the arbitrage...  get it while you can.  Just keep doing this the rest of your career and retire early to a snail's pace business that makes a consistent return.  There are pricing distortions everywhere...

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 20:14 | 5106572 FredFlintstone
FredFlintstone's picture

I guess that I have been exploiting this for about 20 years working for a large consulting firm while living in the midwest. I make a little less than my counterparts that live on the coasts, but my cost of living is so much less. I can live like they can only dream about. They are on the lower end of the food chain and I am on the upper end as far as profesional wage slaves go.

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 23:50 | 5107276 MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

Exactly.  I live in the cheapest place to live in the country...  While jobs do tend to pay less, the net is better.  Prices are largely flat with a slight inflationary (increase) bias.  Investing is easier as the environment is less prone to swings...  However, we're getting a large migration from the east and northeast...  and we don't have enough jobs to keep up.

Mon, 08/18/2014 - 01:04 | 5107500 AldousHuxley
AldousHuxley's picture

but if you are middle class, your largest investment = HOUSE, is not increasing YOY as they do on the coasts.

 

You are enjoying good quality of life NOW, but at retirement, the folks living in shitty little boxes in California have $800k home equity versus $300k in midwest. Meaning you will have to find a even cheaper place to retire while coastal residents get to cash in.

 

Nice house in shitty area OR shitty house in nice area for middle class.

Nice house in nice stable area is always in demand.

Mon, 08/18/2014 - 02:10 | 5107601 California Nigh...
California Nightmares's picture

Actually, that 800,000 house in CAL would fetch less than 100,000 in a cozy spot along the lake in NE Ohio. 

Mon, 08/18/2014 - 06:39 | 5107799 FredFlintstone
FredFlintstone's picture

I have owned my 2,700+ sf house free and clear for about 8 years now. 3 car garage, 9 ft ceilings, wooded lot, granite counters. It would be great if it appreciated, but it is not necessary. It it not my most valuable asset. In a high priced area, it would be and I would not be able to save any money.

My salary would be maybe only 10% more in SF or LA. I can join a country club or vacation to Europe if I want to. 30 minute commute.

Mon, 08/18/2014 - 09:53 | 5108382 MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

Being middle class now means, in part, avoiding home ownership when it doesn't make sense...  further, the less money that you're forced to tie up in a house, the more money you have to position yourself for transfer into the next currency regime.

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 15:16 | 5105729 chunga
chunga's picture

Hey Macho...how's it going? I doubt she is going to say anything but she might...just for her own satisfaction only because you are right. My guess is the exec at this outfit has to report what they're doing to bring in new patients at all these meetings they go to. So "marketing" is in the budget...hence this other person's job. It isn't about this girl, even though it sounds like she does nothing. It's about the corporate thinking that a non-essential marketing person should get paid more than a medical pro. There are many times that she is the only RN (she is superviser) in the building and if she isn't there *nothing* related to medical services can be done. She is disappointed and insulted because she takes a lot of pride in how people get treated and she works her ass off.

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 15:35 | 5105800 Vampyroteuthis ...
Vampyroteuthis infernalis's picture

Dear Yankees, If you move to Texas, that is fine as long as you leave your libtard politics at the state border.

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 15:44 | 5105822 Keyser
Keyser's picture

Funny, but I actually tell transplants this when I bump into someone that is new to Texas... You should see their eyes when comprehension sets in... Priceless is the only word to describe it... 

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 16:39 | 5105984 shovelhead
shovelhead's picture

Been to Austin lately?

Seems you could run a hefty business exporting libtards.

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 17:58 | 5106243 Vampyroteuthis ...
Vampyroteuthis infernalis's picture

sh, I spent over 8 years in Austin. Austin is cool minus the politics which are slowly making the city unlivable. I now reside in DFW which has a lack of libtards and we intend to keep it that way.

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 23:24 | 5107154 Blano
Blano's picture

I'm in DFW.  Lack of libtards?  I wish.  Way more than I thought when I got here.

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 20:45 | 5106646 Jam
Jam's picture

Is that the same Texas where a plumbing contractor bids three grand to replace a 500 dollar residential water heater. Then sends over a couple Mexican "technicians" to do the work.

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 15:37 | 5105802 Terminus C
Terminus C's picture

The world is no longer about productivity, only about optics.  I am finding the same where I am.  People who talk the talk and kiss the right asses get promotions and often those who walk the walk and are productive get ignored... because they are a threat to those who just talk.

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 16:02 | 5105874 New_Meat
New_Meat's picture

Terminus:

"People who talk the talk and kiss the right asses get promotions... "

Yep, and 'twere that way after Augustus snuffed the Roman Republic. 'course, they didn't have the bloodsucking class of lawyers in mutual masturbation to their mutual benefit.

They accomplished the "Fundamental Transformation in like 2 years.

- Ned

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 22:34 | 5106964 ImGumbydmmt
ImGumbydmmt's picture

That is the only corporoate world I have even known going back to 1993.

Showing up as the new guy and outshining the old guard only pisses folks off.

Try someplace else and see the same thing starts to get old.

It takes a special set of slimy skills to advance in those environments.

I'm much better off self employed.

 

 

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 19:14 | 5106447 MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

@ Chunga

Doing pretty well...  hung my own shingle first of the year...  business is picking up...  That case we talked about against the TBTF on the issue of standing to foreclose ended up settling...  we managed to shave a helluva lot off the top though, so the clients were happy.

As far as the medical profession goes, administration is where the money is...  the boots on the ground that are necessary for the place to bill an insurance company and who do all the work, all tend to get paid nothing in comparison to administrators.  This all boils down to equity theory: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equity_theory  It's a huge source of burnout.  My suggestion is to not fall prey to the musical chairs practice (just finding another place to work and discovering that it's no different than the place you left).  Change is good, but just make sure you're not trying to cut off your nose to spite your face.  I'm doing my best to help more than a few medical professionals get the hell out of the rat trap and set up their own shops and ditch the insurance noose.

We're working towards a world where the workhorses are the only ones with jobs and we burn ourselves out because of it and otherwise have a shitty existence...  making other people rich.  About all you can do is attempt to get a slice of the capital before you're replaced by a robot.

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 19:19 | 5106463 FredFlintstone
FredFlintstone's picture

Good post. Gives words to what I have been feeling/experiencing lately. Thanks.

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 20:42 | 5106642 chunga
chunga's picture

I suppose what really got my attention was that she actually told me about it. Like I say, she never, ever complains. My take-away was that - if she's complaining - as an RN - things can't be going too well on Main Street. This is a small 100 bed facility in a tiny little town. If money was number one priority she'd go to a big city and could make a lot more...been there done that. Now it's all about minimal stress, go there, work, get money, come home. Right now she has a chicken in one hand and a beer in the other.

Good luck with your practice man, I hope you do well!

(There are some good thoughts and comments on this thread thanks)

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 23:54 | 5107299 MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

The only takeaway from the thread that you (and she) need is that whatever happens with the world, it will need people that work...  if you're someone who can work, then I wouldn't lose much sleep.  If you can figure out how to work smarter, then you might be able to hang on to a middle class lifestyle.  However, if you cannot, then you probably will lose a rung or two...  of course, at the bottom end of the spectrum, the rungs are being compressed so there's not much difference between them.  If only some of us were born 30 years earlier...

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 19:46 | 5106522 grid-b-gone
grid-b-gone's picture

If this marketing woman brings in a half dozen patients per year from referrals, it doesn't matter what degree she has, if any.

Personable and, yes, attractive people, especially females tend to get face time with decision-makers. Doctors are busy. If her pastries and personal touch bring patients through the doors, she's a rainmaker and she's earning her salary.

True, the patient care part takes a lot more dedication, stress, education, and everything already mentioned that makes this situation seem unfair, but every business has to get that revenue potential through the door before the core services can be delivered and invoiced.  

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 20:46 | 5106649 grid-b-gone
grid-b-gone's picture

Starting off with a neg? Why do you think most new hospitals and hospital renovations have a multi-million dollar atrium? Marketing.

Why do you see ads on TV if you live in an area with more than one hospital?

It's a business - at least for the owners.

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 19:05 | 5106432 MeBizarro
MeBizarro's picture

General practitioners make more than specialists?  More complete nonsense.  If this was the case, why do the overwhelming number of US medical students want to go into specialist residencies?  Specialists earn 1.5-4x what PCPs earn depending upon the medical specialty.

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 19:21 | 5106468 MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

You're going to cite people who shouldn't be going into the medical field at all (going into severe debt to do it and wasting years of possible productivity to a future where all the patients are turnips) as a basis for why being a specialist isn't necessarily a panacea?  It isn't that every generalist makes as much as a specialist.  The issue is that in certain situations, it's more beneficial to become a generalist because the pay is equivalent and you're ditching an incredible amount of responsibility.  For example, I have a heart surgeon client that, due to cutbacks in insurance reimbursements, decided to practice general surgery and now makes more money than he did when he was a heart surgeon (he is one of a top handful of heart surgeons in town).  Due to monetary policy, there are far too many examples of this (and I'm not limiting this to the medical field, it was simply a single example)...  one would expect this to happen every once and a while, but it happens in virtually every profession at every strata of the field.

In short, it's just one big game...  you find where the monies haven't been as curtailed and exploit it until they realign them closer to everything else...

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 19:45 | 5106521 MeBizarro
MeBizarro's picture

Trust me as a health economicist and someone who has plenty of physician friends/colleagues/professional associations that generalists don't make more than specialists.

One of the biggest problems in the US medical system is that we incent and train way too many specialists and not nearly enough PCPs/GPs along with not letting PAs/NPs deal with medically-appropriate visits. 

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 20:10 | 5106565 MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

Trust me as a health economicist and someone who has plenty of physician friends/colleagues/professional associations that generalists don't make more than specialists.

In general, I agree.  However, that's not what we're talking about.

One of the biggest problems in the US medical system is that we incent and train way too many specialists and not nearly enough PCPs/GPs along with not letting PAs/NPs deal with medically-appropriate visits.

If you can accept that there is a need for generalists, then it shouldn't be too big of a jump to say that enterprising folks can hustle (low risk/low responsibility tasks) and keep up pretty well with their former specialist selves.  Part of the opportunity for arbitrage here is that the generalists already had their monkey hammering and, thus, everyone jumped into specialties...  well, in many of the fields, the specialists have now been hit (and this is the trend moving forward).  When you compare the education, type of work, pay, etc., in many medical fields, the generalist now has an incredibly strong position...  Would you take a 10% haircut in revenue to do 90% less risky work, pay 20% less med mal premiums, and not be on call?

It's hard for many folks who make the transition...  they're used to a different pace...  the plodding methodical specialist has a difficult time adjusting to the assembly line gp practice of banging out as many patients as possible every hour.  If properly organized, the gp can make a shit ton of money at a fraction of the responsibility...  different strokes. 

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 16:34 | 5105968 Moustache Rides
Moustache Rides's picture

Bill Hicks on marketing

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDW_Hj2K0wo

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 14:52 | 5105660 FredFlintstone
FredFlintstone's picture

Does she have a nice figure?

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 14:56 | 5105670 Skateboarder
Skateboarder's picture

Assuming there is no nepotism and like causes involved, it doesn't seem likely that a business would pay a sandwich-bringer lady more than a highly experienced nurse, if she's not ooh-la-la *whistle*.

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 15:01 | 5105682 chunga
chunga's picture

No she is fat from what I hear. Apparently her skill is that she's a fast-talker sales type. I see that as a problem...moar reward goes to the presentation rather than the substance. 

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 16:58 | 5106029 shovelhead
shovelhead's picture

You're getting close.

Perceived value vs. real value.

Real value is a known. Perceived value is future earnings increase which is an unknown yet a forward looking projection which has a built in positive or optimistic bias.

Corporate mindset places more value on growth than on current earnings.

The downside is that growth better become real earnings in the quarterlies fairly quickly or all the fast talking and flash powerpoints will be down the road while the real value will be still be cashing paychecks.

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 15:46 | 5105829 Democratic koolaid
Democratic koolaid's picture

What chart would agriculture be in? to work on that figure of hers.

 

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 19:35 | 5106497 exartizo
exartizo's picture

...sounds like the non essential person might be an Entrepreneur.

While your wife might be a Pencil Pushing Politician.

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 20:59 | 5106675 chunga
chunga's picture

Pencil pushing politician?

I just got finished saying she is a registered nurse with cardiac being her specialty. She's been head nurse in ICU unit and run 350 patient cardiac rehab programs. This isn't about her and it isn't about you. It's about priorities. If you land in a hospital with a heart attack I hope you get the very best marketing care and a sandwich because it will be in the bill you fucking twat.

Mon, 08/18/2014 - 01:10 | 5107511 AGuy
AGuy's picture

"The person I speak of has an associates degree in MARKETING and COMMUNICATION."

All depends. How much revenue does this Marketing person bring in? Is the person with a degree in Marketing actually doing marketing or something that generates the business a lot of revenue? Consider that many Star athlete make millions, and much more than people with advanced degrees. Often CEOs become executives working in sales, marketing, or accounting. An advanced degree or skill speciality does not mean higher wages.

FWIW: There are a lot of really dumb people that make a lot more money than I do. To behonest I really don't care. I perfer to focus on focusing on how to improve my capabilities and how to increase my future wages. You can't change the world, you can only change yourself. No point in getting mad over something you can't control.

 

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 19:03 | 5106427 MeBizarro
MeBizarro's picture

This same BS narrative has been posted on here again and again and again. It doesn't matter if I post the NBER paper on it, BLS labor statistics, etc. 

Since '08 you have had 3 things happen and why unemployment rates have really leaped among young people:

- Employers (especially large employers) have largely gutted their training programs and gotten rid of them entirely

- Employers really thinned out there entry-level positions and just increasingly automated, outsourced, or just dumped more work on those who were left

- Employers all of a sudden even for entry-level positions are asking for 2-4 years of experience and a pretty specific skill set for new entry-level employees since they still have the upper hand and can tap into part-time/contract/recent college grads of the past 3-5 years.

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 15:10 | 5105703 Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

@insanlyinsane: "...Person said they found another job after a week of working and left.  HR calls my wife the next week and says what happened?  The person filed for unemployment."

Filing for UI after working for ONE WEEK?  ROTFLMAO.  I don't bloody think so. 

Cause you don't qualify till you've worked for MUCH longer.  And even then it's indexed to a fraction of what they earned.  'High' earners (>$80k/yr) max out at ~$500/week in UI.  Not enough to live or die on in most places, unless you live like a hobo or sell drugs/vice on the side.

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 15:39 | 5105810 Terminus C
Terminus C's picture

Thread derailer?

Get the topic off of economic conditions on to the "takers".

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 16:04 | 5105831 Keyser
Keyser's picture

You think $2000 a month is a pittance that people could not live on?   

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 16:58 | 5105957 Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

Yes I do, especially for a family of 4 or 5, who don't live in a shack or eat dog food.

Please bear in mind that... UI is not a handout (welfare).  UI = Unemployment Insurance.  And like any insurance policy, it had better pay out if the Payer fulfills their part of of what is a legal and financial contract.  It's pure business, pure contractual stuff -- so let's leave political dogma out of it.

The (subtle) reason that UI has such an image problem in the US, is that is is Insurance that the Gov imposes on employed people.  That alone (who runs the plan) does not make is "evil", as the ever-present subtext from Republicans and Libertarians seems to suggest.  It may make it a lot of things, but "wrong" is not one of them.  If... IF you (or others) are suggesting that the state-run UI program is currently not cost-neutral, then I'd suggest that it either be made non-profit and cost-neutral by the State government, or that people who pay into it (i.e. the tax-paying and UI-paying people) get to vote on the extent and duration of coverage.  IOW, the Payers decided how much they want to set aside for a Rainy Season/Year. It's the logical and equitable thing to do.

I'd even go as far as to say that UI needs to "expands it Policy Offerings", e.g. for those who wish to pay for it, to have longer-term coverage, or coverage for greater amounts.  Private insurance can be obtained now, but the profit margins by insurance companies are such that the balance between Benefits vs. Profits is too lop-sided to make it attractive for all but a few people.

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 18:55 | 5106404 Croesus
Croesus's picture

@ Kirk: 

The cost of living out here, is much lower than $2k/mo. You'd have a hard time making it (where we're from), but in other parts of the country, not so much. 

The hardest thing facing an $80k/yr. earner, would be making the adjustment to the UI "income", vis a vis spending habits. 

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 19:11 | 5106441 MeBizarro
MeBizarro's picture

That is before any taxes and yeah living on 24k annually pre-tax is considered 'poor' by the federal poverty guidlines for a household of 4 ($23,850 which is at 100% of the FPL)

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 19:32 | 5106487 CheapBastard
CheapBastard's picture

@kirk,

 

Have you seen The Survivors with Robin Williams and Walter Matthau? There's a great scene in there where Matthau stands in line for hours to apply for UI but is told despite paying for years into the system he himself is not eleigble for UI b/c he is not an employer but the employer. 

 

It's funny.

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 19:53 | 5106537 Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

Guys, I fully agree that the costs very greatly by region, which is why I'm in favor of treating (turning) UI into "Customizable Product" -- much like any other insurance:

The User (potential recipient) decides what Level of Benefits they need and can afford (and are paying for while employed), rather than Big Bro deciding for them.  And, just like car insurance and life insurance policies, which are based on Risk Profiles, so UI should also include Risk Profiles -- given that some industries, companies or individuals are more prone to job-loss than others.  This seems flexible, rational and fair, IMO.

The best potentially constructive role I see the Gov playing, is to provide said Insurance Services on a cost-neutral basis:  Fees collected + Gov operating costs = UI paid out.  A private insurance provider would and does add a hefty Profit to the above formula, of course.

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 16:27 | 5105947 Adahy
Adahy's picture

I live comfortably on substantialy less than that with no gov. assistance.  But I'm not a consumer-type and I do most everything myself.  That has a lot to do with it.

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 15:20 | 5105744 CoastalCowboy
CoastalCowboy's picture

I don't know in what state you reside but mine requires a certain number of quarters be paid into the system before one collects. Unemployment is insurance paid by an employer as a percentage of the employee's wage into a so called fund. It is not welfare contrary to popular belief.

Being out of work for two years would disqualify one from even making an unemployment claim in my state as one has not paid into the system for the appropriate number of quarters prior to making the claim.

That being said unemployment is degrading as it should be and no way to live. The amount you receive in no way compares to what a real job pays.

Of course, the corporatist scum and their joined at the hip politicians have created this mess. The FSA is also needed as mass of voters to keep the scam running.,

Do you have the same zeal against corporate welfare which vastly exceeds any social welfare spending?

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 14:17 | 5105554 cowdiddly
cowdiddly's picture

Damn train em. I mean how hard is it find a keyed hot wire and ad speaker wire geeze

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 14:25 | 5105582 localsavage
localsavage's picture

Have you looked for someone under 30 who even know what you just asked?  But they are computer experts....If you consider posting to Facebook, Twitter etc. computer skills

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 14:30 | 5105599 cowdiddly
cowdiddly's picture

Well you do have a point. When I hire people I know they are going to know Jack. Im more concerned if they look like they will show up every day, actually do something and stay sober long enough to be of use. I will teach them what they need to know.

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 14:42 | 5105635 Amish Hacker
Amish Hacker's picture

Me too. "Don't know" is easily fixed. "Don't care" is incurable.

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 15:49 | 5105838 Keyser
Keyser's picture

The "don't care" crowd and the ever expanding FSA are killing this country and have been since welfare went into effect... As long as you pay people to sit on their ass, they have zero incentive to do anything... 

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 14:57 | 5105676 AdvancingTime
AdvancingTime's picture

Another issue we face is if an employee damages someones property we are responsible! Liability is a bitch. 

Many situations exist where you don't want to open that possibility.

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 15:44 | 5105823 disabledvet
disabledvet's picture

Does that include looting?

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 14:31 | 5105587 oudinot
oudinot's picture

What would be their pay for the jobs you are offering?

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 14:35 | 5105616 Eyeroller
Eyeroller's picture

Who can blame anyone for collecting welfare if it pays just as much (or more) than a low wage job?

Give someone the choice of free stuff or working for it and guess what happens?

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 16:21 | 5105927 TheReplacement
TheReplacement's picture

I can.  It's dishonest and as a matter of fact, theft.

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 19:20 | 5106464 bunzbunzbunz
bunzbunzbunz's picture

It's actually expected capitalist behavior. Let's assume you own a home. You bought it for some amount. If 5 years later you decide to sell your home and it is 'worth' double what you paid, are you going to take that extra money? Are you going to question the economic reasons or consequences for the value increase? The same dishonest welfare taking applies to this situation. If the actions of the government(interest rates) increased the price of your house, you too are taking welfare. I guess that's theft too right?

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 14:41 | 5105634 junction
junction's picture

In New York City, with the EZ Pass discount, it costs $5.33 to cross the Whitestone Bridge.  Thirty years ago, it cost 50 cents.  In 1975, the minumum wage here was $2.00 an hour and you could rent a one bedroom rent stabilized apartment in Queens for about $175.  Now that apartment would go for at least $900, if you could even find a rent stabilized apartment.  Living costs have skyrocketed yet there are plenty of employers whose wage mindset is 20 years behind the inflation rate.  An NYPD police sargeant now makes about $120,000 a year, thanks to generous police salary raises.  A starting working at a fast food place makes $8.00 an hour, starting this year.  In almost 40 years, the minimum wage has gone up 4 times.  In 1975, gasoline cost 55 cents a gallon.  So, when I read about employers saying they have jobs available that no one will fill, I always wonder about what salaries they are offering the new hires.  Chances are, chump change salaries out of step with the prevailing wage for the jobs they want to fill.  I would sure like to buy a new Chevy Malibu for $2,400, but that is not possible anymore. 

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 15:15 | 5105724 Stumpy4516
Stumpy4516's picture

Adding to junction's post:

Many commenting are older and do not realize how low today's minimum or entry wages are (in real purchasing terms) compared to the 60's, 70's or 80's.  During those times a young person could actually get by with roommates or use that job to pay for college.

Then there are the jobs that have been taken from our younger people.  Many locations prefer to hire illegals or newly legal to work in kitchens, construction and various assistant or gofer jobs teenagers and early 20's people used to use as a step up.  The reason for that is not just the low pay but often those hiring want someone who can speak spanish so they work better with the others.

How many house framing crews have these young people, who now does all the residential roofing, concrete workers and mason assistants, and so on.  Landscaping and sprinklers used to be installed by those young guys while supervised.  In our area painters are spanish but the contractor who bids it and meets with you is not, just his workers.

 

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 18:51 | 5106386 cynicalskeptic
cynicalskeptic's picture

You've seen a huge amount of 'displacement' in construction jobs - even in electrical and plumbing.

Pretty much all the contractors here in NYC burbs have crews that were born elsewhere - are here legally or illegally.  Same with any type of physical labor.  All those kids I went to HS with who thought they didn't need school - most second gen Italians who thought they'd be fine taking over their father's landscaping business - found out there was competition who'd work harder and cheaper.   Hired one of the first varieties to do yard work for a year... lousy job and not cheap.  Replaced him with a regular service seen in the area - various South/Central American.  They work far harder and do a much better job.  Owner started a contracting business - cashed out before the 07 crash and went home with a few containers of construction supplies.

Guy that painted my house had one salaried crew chief - all others were pick-up labor.  Typical of ALL the guys that bid on the job.  Hired a contractor to build a garage - most of the crew was from Ecuador.   The two Americans on the crew were - frankly - slackers - but they ran the excavating equioment.  The electrician that did the work on that had a crew that was from South America.  and it's not like the price was any lower......

Brother in NC said that Mexicans had pretty much taken over the construction business there before the 07 meltdown.  They worked harder than the people that had been in the business.

 

The irony to all this is that YOU won't be paying any less to get work done.  The middleman/contractor/supervisor is making more one each job because his labor costs are lower.  And half the time a good number of his crew are off the books - lowering costs even more.

 

Part of ll this is a declining work ethic - most Americans do not know what it is to really work hard - but employers are pushing the pay envelope all the time looking for the cheapest possible labor (that still gets the work done).

I do a good amount of work on my house myself - because I end up overpaying for mediocre work when I have to hire people.  But sometimes you have no choice - zoning requires permits and LICENSED people for a lot of jobs (and they're more than willing to fine you if you don't follow the rules - a good revenue source).  Worse, we live in a 'good' neighborhood - lots of Manhattan types moving up to put kids in school (private schools in NYC are expensive) so anyone bidding on jobs her automatically ups the price by 40-50%.

US schools push kids into 'college' and steer them AWAY from trades but then there are few really good options if you want to go into a trade.  Most 'fall into' these jobs and the 'training' is 'informal' - they learn by rote without really understanding WHAT and WHY they're doing what they do.  Had to correct electrical and plumbing work more than a few times.  Scary when the electrician crosses circuits and is trying to hook up a hot wire to a breaker in the main panel.

 

 

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 19:19 | 5106437 knowshitsurelock
knowshitsurelock's picture

Adding to stumpy's post.  I'm 61, have worked in residential construction all my life.  I'm making today the same wages I made in the mid 80's, yet of course, costs have gone up.  I used to have two kids, a mortgage, car payments and the whole banana.  Now I drive a 20 year old truck with 180,000 miles on it and live in a shitty apartment.  I've never had healthcare or retirement benefits, since the residential construction market has never supported such grandiose extravagants, and it's "FU" if you show up late and are too old to work like a donkey.  If I lost my job I would be on the streets in about six weeks.

I go to bed tired as hell every night, wake up sore and tired, and slog through another day.  One day, they will pry my hammer out of my cold dead hands.  That's when this donkey will finally get some peace.

I feel bad for the 20 somethings, over half of them unemployed and the other half paid shit wages.  The guys who I work with are diggin themselves a hole with every paycheck which is short even for the cheapest of basic needs.  They drive piece of shit cars without insurance and get pulled over all the time.  One of the guys has over 3,300 in fines he would need to pay to get his license back.  One more pulled over and he goes to jail.  No way he can get out of the trap he is in, no way.  He asks me for 20 bucks just to get some gas or food for his young son.

And I live in the Northwest where the economy is actually pretty good, for now, due to all the fortune 500 companies around here who still actually make something.  We cater to what's left of the upper middle class who still think their savings and pensions are secure, their equity in their homes has value, and they will one day sell it all and reap the profits.  It's quite the dichotomy.  They do these 200,000 dollar facelifts on their homes because their fixtures and cabinets are ten years old and outdated.

One day this is all going to come apart.  No way I can pay for Obummacare, and they can try and get me to pay a penalty.  If I get a catastrophic illness, you might as well shoot me and just put me in a box.

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 19:26 | 5106477 FredFlintstone
FredFlintstone's picture

Excellent post. This is why I am here to find out what is truly happening in the world. I feel for you and wish you the best.

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 19:56 | 5106541 MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

Your friend has gotten on the legal treadmill.  Once on, it's virtually impossible to get out.  He'll just be paying interest on his fines and they'll keep tacking on more until he pays it all off...  they'll stick him with community service to where he can't keep his job and then throw him in jail when he opts to continue at his job rather than pick up trash on the highway...  he'll do jail time to burn off the community service and all the local leeches will jerk off on each other for the few thousand they'll charge on the taxpayers' dime for the pleasure. 

I can't begin to tell you the horrors of this system.  My only advice is to keep a clean record, so that when you do get pulled over, you're dramatically more likely to get a warning.  Further, in this same concept, you should probably get a concealed handgun license, if you can pass the background check.  Whenever you get stopped, tell the officer you have the license and you probably won't get a ticket.  If the prosecutors won't play ball on a ticket going on your record, then push a jury trial and, if that doesn't go your way, exercise any de novo appeals to courts of higher jurisdiction.  Do not get anything on your record.  If you do have to pay fines, then do everything you can, leverage anything in the system to pay it...  Do not get behind on it...  you will drown.

These guys are "regulars" for the cops...  the cops will go out of their way just to find your friends...  they'll need to change their habits in order to avoid the profiling...  make sure everything on their cars is in good mechanical condition...  the times they drive, the routes they drive, all of it.  Once you're on the cops' radar, they'll keep busting your ass because you're an easy mark to fill a quota. 

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 20:44 | 5106639 knowshitsurelock
knowshitsurelock's picture

I've come to realize, its the pedophilic child molesting hedonistic murdering narcissistic tyrannical ritualistic child blood sacrificing self aggrandizing manipulative decadent secret society cabalistic insider globalist oligarchic mother fucking alien reptilian low life scum sucking bottom feeding banksters that caused all this.

The Federal Reserve Act was the worst thing that happened to the US, and the New Deal sealed it.  We are all just slaves now.

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 20:22 | 5106600 duo
duo's picture

flat earnings since the middle '80s.  That's a 75% pay cut.

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 20:23 | 5106604 Stumpy4516
Stumpy4516's picture

"knows" tells how it is now.

Here is how I remember it being yesterday.  The blue collar men were respected for the challanges of their work just as the white collar licensed professionls were respected for their profession.  They both often lived in the same neighborhoods (at least mine), because the blue collar man was able to work into a middle class wage with experience.  The experienced, older blue collar worker was respected by his company and the worst of the physical demands carried by the younger guys as the older guy kept an eye on quality.  They worked hard and when there was a lot to do worked fast, when the demands were not as great there was some levity while they worked and of course during breaks.  The middle class pay along with their experience being valued carried over into a positive home life complete with recreation for the family.

Hate to say it but that is gone now and part of the social foundation has crumbled.  As it went downhill guys got divorced, others gave up (or found fewer prospects for) the hope of having the middle class family dream, more drinking and time in the shack bars where I came from.

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 14:51 | 5105656 AdvancingTime
AdvancingTime's picture

 Few Americans ever really work through the numbers but fact is if you can get enough from the Government in disability, unemployment, or some other kind of welfare why even jeopardize that income by thinking about taking a job. For all the moaning about how it is not enough and those living on the dole are forced into a life of poverty in fact those that suffer greatly often do so because of poor spending choices rather then the amount they receive. The article below delves into why people often choose to live a life as unemployed in America.

http://brucewilds.blogspot.com/2013/06/living-on-dole.html

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 21:08 | 5106693 laomei
laomei's picture

Exactly.. bird in the hand, worth two in the bush.  Sure, in theory you can go out and get a job, and bust your ass and maybe end up with more.  But along comes the next downturn when wall street decides it needs more money, and poof, you are back to square one.  Bust your ass for $40k, or do nothing for $30k... gee, hard choice there.

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 15:14 | 5105720 Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

While it's nice to see those Mining jobs in certain states (TX), it's a real tell when the "jobs" are in the EXTRACTION sector, rather than the (value-add) BUILDING/CREATING sector.

Put in that context, all of a sudden even TX does not look so great.  But if your brain/worldview accepts that "any decent-paying job will do", then yes, I suppose it's "all good".  My "Bar" is set a little higher.

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 15:36 | 5105799 duo
duo's picture

Let's see....TX taxes land and not labour. The property taxes on a 700 sq ft. Palo Alto bugalow at $1.2M would be about  $30K a year in TX.  Of course, that bungalow from 1948 is worth 50K in TX.  People in TX didn't MISALLOCATE billions in capital into the bullshit RE Ponzi scheme.  In fact, just in the last few months has my house's value exceeded what it sold for in 1986.

Manufacturing, Mining, and agriculture/ranching are the only ways to produce wealth.  Everything else is graft and skimming.  Sorry, but that's the truth.

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 15:53 | 5105848 thamnosma
thamnosma's picture

I wouldn't leave out tech design, invention, innovation in a wired world.  It's produced a good deal of wealth in certain areas in the country.  The rest I agree with.

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 16:17 | 5105919 Beatscape
Beatscape's picture

Manufacturing, Mining, and agriculture/ranching are the only ways to produce wealth.  Everything else is graft and skimming.  Sorry, but that's the truth.

This statement is incorrect. Wealth is created from innovation and the productive application of technology and the invention of new technologies. That is true wealth creation.

 

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 16:21 | 5105929 thamnosma
thamnosma's picture

Geez, it's not an either/or argument.

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 16:23 | 5105934 FredFlintstone
FredFlintstone's picture

No, those things enhance wealth production in manufacturing, mining and agriculture.

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 17:02 | 5106043 Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

duo, dude!  I don't disagree with what you're saying, but did you actually take in what I wrote?  If so, with what part do you disagree?

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 18:48 | 5106380 duo
duo's picture

just trying to get a post in near the top.

Yes, engineering is crucial to raising the bar of productivity.  Banking is not.

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 17:16 | 5106085 shovelhead
shovelhead's picture

Apparently you valued the tech that built your computer more than you valued the dollars to buy it, so what you typed on blew your own argument away.

You can't manufacture something that hasn't been designed, drafted and proofed.

I could do this all day.

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 19:14 | 5106449 MeBizarro
MeBizarro's picture

Did you economics trainig and knowledge get stuck somewhere about 1850?

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 15:53 | 5105849 Keyser
Keyser's picture

Now I know you're an idiot... 

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 17:06 | 5106046 Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

The ad hominem venting aside (feel better?), what EXACT PART offends you so much or do you disagree with? 

Please enlighten us.

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 15:27 | 5105770 ObamaDepression
ObamaDepression's picture

Have you considered training someone?

I've noticed many businesses say they want to hire but they want to pay low wages while demanding expert labor that requires no training.

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 16:30 | 5105952 TheReplacement
TheReplacement's picture

You mean like requiring a four year for a helpdesk position that just resets passwords and changes printer toner?  Yeah, see that a lot.  How about requiring a biz degree for an IT Manager/Director so that they can have an employee who knows absolutely nothing about IT running the show?  My favorite is when they are looking for someone with a degree, 10 years experience, and all the certs for $50k or less in the New England area. 

Sorry employers, I feel absolutely no sympathy for you and your self inflicted wounds.  For the most part, you deserve even worse then what you are getting.

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 18:53 | 5106399 duo
duo's picture

yes, like when GE wants to hire an experienced person to run a 5-axis milling machine that costs half a million dollars, but only wants to pay $20K a year, barely more than a McDonalds gig.

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 19:17 | 5106454 MeBizarro
MeBizarro's picture

They'll pay more than that to even start but won't they won't pay for is an apprenticeship or a fund a local 2-year trade college to train machinists with the necessary skills.  What the will do is decry the 'lack of skills' in the workforce and then get the idiots in local and/or state gov't to pick up all of the education and training costs.  Or they will just move overseas. 

Mon, 08/18/2014 - 01:42 | 5107565 AGuy
AGuy's picture

"Have you considered training someone?"

NO, because they will jump ship as soon as they complete thier training. Rarely are employees loyal enough to take a risk that they will stay.

A part of the problem is that companies are trying to complete with overseas labor. It would be cheaper to just move production overseas than to pay real wages. So the remaining blue collar jobs left are forced to provide poverty level wages or go out of business as cheap overseas productions undercuts them. The US pratically had a monopoly on Manufacturing up until the late 1970's, but the Asians finally figured out that they could take over the US manufacturing market with thier vast supply of dirt cheap labor.

FWIW: Its probably not very important anymore, We are 10+ years peak cheap energy. Rising energy costs and supply constraints is going to turn the entire world into one giant third world nation. The Oil Majors have given up and are cutting development and returning capital to shareholders. There is no more economically recoverable oil left. At best the world has 10 years left before the whole global economy collapses. Welcome to the new world order.

 

 

 

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 15:29 | 5105775 Stumpy4516
Stumpy4516's picture

takeaction,

Here it is very different.  There are large numbers applying even for those low wage jobs.  And if you make it, before you are hired they do a background check or credit check even for those jobs.  And, they give you one of those cheap and quick swab drug checks even for a grocery stocker job. 

Twice I have known people get to the end of the selection process and be told they tentatively have the job.  Then the company rep calls and says their boss decided they can have the job but for 50 cents or more less than the original salary. 

And I have to wonder, how can you not find a car stereo salesman?  Maybe the pay you are offering is a problem as I have to think there are plenty of young people who can sell care stereo's.  And maybe the people are smart, they look at the benefits of working for peanuts where it takes two hours of wages to buy a decent burger and fries vs other options.  In my day we bought really good used cars ourselves using the paychecks from those entry jobs, you cannot do that now.

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 17:32 | 5106149 shovelhead
shovelhead's picture

It's called market conditions.

Nobody complained about the market conditions when there was a labor shortage and the employer barely looked at a resume and asked if you could come in tomorrow.

Yet everyone expects employers to pay above market rates when the situation reverses and there is a labor glut.

Too many cars result in lower prices.

Same in the job market. It's called real life and what you want or think you deserve got nothing to do with anything.

Bill Munney will tell you that.

Sorry.

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 19:32 | 5106488 bunzbunzbunz
bunzbunzbunz's picture

Too much logic. Downvotes will ensue.

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 20:15 | 5106581 Ballin D
Ballin D's picture

Its not market rates if you cant find the labor in the market at the offered price point.

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 20:38 | 5106632 Stumpy4516
Stumpy4516's picture

shovel,

One of the points is that these market conditions did not occur due to any natural progression of events by leaders who cared about the citizens and workers of this country.  Not only was this country's economic foundations (in the way of jobs) intentionally destroyed for greater profits but the workers were further screwed by bringing in hordes of foreign workers to flood the labor force with cheap labor.  And the blue collar labor flood has been illegal or pardoned illegals for the most part.  The white collar workers are now getting theirs with their jobs also being outsourced and the worker visas for foreign professionals.

 

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 19:32 | 5106486 Pie rre
Pie rre's picture

You might be able to attract some talent if you didn't pay shit.

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 19:47 | 5106526 Dead Man Walking
Dead Man Walking's picture

No, most jobs are crappy and employers are paying 1985 wages.  Obamacare took away the job market as many employers are just holding on, using a wait/see approach rather than take any risk. This has eliminated capital investment. Dodd-Frank has ruined the banking industry and severely impacted the IT industry selling into it. It's not just the laws, it's the mountains of regulations coming with it.  mpossible to spend on a business if you don't what regulations will do next week, nevermind next year.  I had a CIO of a major bank tell me he met with regulators on monday, set up a project in motion on Wednesday, and by Friday, they added 12 new regulations, so he had to stop the project.

Obama and the govt have killed our economy.

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 14:12 | 5105536 localsavage
localsavage's picture

So much for tech leading the way

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 14:13 | 5105538 danpos
danpos's picture

In Soviet Russia, job finds you.

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 14:44 | 5105641 Amish Hacker
Amish Hacker's picture

"We pretend to work, and they pretend to pay us."

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 14:18 | 5105553 Escrava Isaura
Escrava Isaura's picture

My friend just moved back from San Diego. Got a Vice-President position. He's a Georgetown graduate. Plenty of high salaries jobs and opportunities for him… and his circle of friends.

Astounding!  

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 14:19 | 5105559 I am Jobe
I am Jobe's picture

VP of what, Scamming or Fleecing? 

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 14:37 | 5105597 BrosephStiglitz
BrosephStiglitz's picture

VP of the coffee machine.

But in all honesty, there is job growth out there, if:

- You are 22-27
- You have a degree in a quantitative field.
- You have a master's degree in a quantitative field.
- You are willing to work 80+ hours a week.
- You are willing to work for 2/3rds of the wage you would have earned 10 years ago (in real terms.)
- You are willing to go corporate.
- OR you are very, very lucky/well connected.

For everyone else there is scraping cash together doing whatever (combination) of jobs you can while trying to stay afloat.

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 14:38 | 5105620 Escrava Isaura
Escrava Isaura's picture

Did not ask which organization or company. I'll find it later. He's buying his third condominium.

He rented the one here when he moved to San Diego. Bough one there and rented that too. Now he will be buying something bigger, he said.

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 14:42 | 5105636 Escrava Isaura
Escrava Isaura's picture

BrosephStiglitz,

Right education and manners.

Professor Patzek: The top echelons of politics, diplomacy, law, banking, finance, insurance, and the military-spying-police-entertainment-industrial complex are reserved for the Americans graduating from top private schools.

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 14:44 | 5105643 BrosephStiglitz
BrosephStiglitz's picture

Yes, that is kind of the point.  To find a decent paying job these days, you either need an IQ of 140 and a solid work ethic, or you need extremely well-connected parents?  Or both.

Where does that leave the 95% of the population who has neither?

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 18:31 | 5106335 Bananamerican
Bananamerican's picture

Or better yet, a solid lack of ethics

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 19:33 | 5106494 Dead Man Walking
Dead Man Walking's picture

Actually a high IQ is bad...too hard to manage, and you may see through the bs...better to hire dumb hard worker.

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 20:14 | 5106573 Escrava Isaura
Escrava Isaura's picture

Dead Man,

Wrong! Accordingly to Professor Chomsky.

Education is the best form of indoctrination. Obedience and passivity.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUwBc-GvFFM

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 15:43 | 5105817 JRev
JRev's picture

The American education system, University included, is an oligarchy. Just like medicine, central banking, agribusiness, etc. In fact, it's the foundational oligarchy upon which all others are based. This modified Prussianism is a POINTS SYSTEM. Your ability to shut up, keep your head down, and be propagandized earns you a "credit;" this used to be established by your work ethic and quality. Now it's outsourced to Carneigie/Rockefeller/B&MG/Pfizer/DARPA research centers, also known as "college."

"Quality" education is about to become significantly cheaper, thanks to the Internet and Foundation funding, but it will simply be an updated conditioning system. An updated points system. If you're willing to participate in it, or the current oligarchy, you're part of the fucking problem. Whether attending community college to the best of the Ivy League, you're literally shoveling money at the same criminals putting you in chains. Shame on anyone who does so.

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 15:01 | 5105652 SemperFudge
SemperFudge's picture

Excellent summary. I am 27 and would have been shit out of luck had it not been for some connections I worked through my parents. I work in a small law firm now.

 

Most of the people my age I know who DO have "decent" jobs do horrible things to society through their jobs, like working for Northrop Grumman, or Booz Allen Hamilton, or some DA's office prosecuting primarily black people, or managing wealthy people's (typically boomers) money, just to name a few. ALWAYS helping rich people add more to those fat stacks. That seems to be a common theme in many of the well-paid "jobs" that await the luckiest, most type-A, workaholic types among us. And if you want a job that actually does something of benefit to society, God help you. It's 10 times as hard to land a good job in some organization that actually does something socially responsible and which isn't related to the military-industrial complex in some way.

All this to say, even most of the "real" jobs a 22 to 27-year-old CAN get involve doing some shit work that doesn't benefit society at all, and may actually make all of society WORSE off as a result.

 

And even if you do land a decent job, if you don't make partner in seven years you get kicked back out on your ass, at which point your best bet is to land a teaching gig somewhere. Which is what usually happens to most associates in law firms.

 

Bad times.

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 15:05 | 5105692 BrosephStiglitz
BrosephStiglitz's picture

 Right.  I am also 27.  I have two degrees, Biochemistry, and Economics (with a focus in finance), I am completing my master's in a quantitative field now.  My girlfriend has an honor degree in mathematics from a top end University, and a master's.  She works over 100 hours a week for a pittance.

Out of all of my friends around 10% found decent graduate jobs.  Most of whom studied physics, mathematics, or computer science.  Everyone else is bumming around in dead-end jobs, working 80 hour weeks, and about two missed paychecks short of hanging themselves.

Job recovery my ass.  Anyone who thinks the job recovery is going well is either on crack, retarded, or so out of touch with reality they might as well be certifiable (see: nuts deep in credit-bubble fueled academia.)

It really irritates me when people talk about "lazy youths claiming benefits, not wanting to work" because I look around at the people my age, and I just feel a sense of foreboding despair.  You know who are dropping like flies from the labor force?  Students who took out loans under the (implicit) impression that if they blew through 3-4 years of higher education, and worked hard, they would find gainful employment.  Most of whom did not study quantitative work, either on account of not being mathematically literate enough, or simply not being intelligent enough.

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 15:10 | 5105705 AdvancingTime
AdvancingTime's picture

The implications of poor job creation are massive. The biggest may be that a huge number of people are dropping from the work force. Often these people have little in the way of savings, this means that the burden of caring for them will be transferred to society. If to many people shift into this category we will slowly wear down through attrition.

Finding a fair way to share and balance the work load that goes on every day may be one of the most important problems facing our modern world. Not discovering a solution to this dilemma bodes poorly for our consumer driven economy and adds to the toxic problem of inequality. More on the implications of unemployment in the article below.

http://brucewilds.blogspot.com/2013/09/implications-of-poor-job-creation...

 

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 15:20 | 5105746 Escrava Isaura
Escrava Isaura's picture

AdvancingTime,

There are NO solutions, don't you get it?

Our society will crumble by making everyone poorer.

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 15:25 | 5105761 BrosephStiglitz
BrosephStiglitz's picture

Sir, I believe you are correct.

First graduates live month to month depressed, slowly the depression turns to despair, then the despair turns to anger.

The productive youth is getting worked to death to support an increasingly growing public sector- supporting the elderly, the unemployed, the politicians, the administrators, the bankers, the financiers, the lawyers, (no offense to the lawyer above- I know you are working your ass off and did not choose your profession out of spite.)

This will not end well.  Mark my words.  I am all for a stable and productive society where there is hope for the average citizen to just support a decent family and maybe own a little property at some point, but we are NOT on that trajectory.

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 15:46 | 5105830 Escrava Isaura
Escrava Isaura's picture

BrosephStiglitz,

You wrote: "youth getting worked to death to support an increasingly growing public sector"

Wrong!

Debt is what is holding together.

And the “Global Reserve Currency” is the foundation.

Take the “Global Reserve Currency” away and US turns into 3rd world.

These youth won’t be able to pay the interest on this debt.

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 16:33 | 5105965 BrosephStiglitz
BrosephStiglitz's picture

Okay, debt is a factor.  But what do you think interest payments and particularly currency are underpinned by?

The productive assets of the economy (including human capital).  Which can be taxed/senioraged/indebted to fund interest payments to creditors and allow more debt to be accumulated etc.

These are not mutually exclusive concepts.  They are all tied together in a vicious tangle of electronic financial obsfuscation.

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 17:18 | 5106083 Escrava Isaura
Escrava Isaura's picture

BrosephStiglitz,

You wrote: "payments and particularly currency are underpinned by the productive assets of the economy"

When that happens, what assets would that be?

Here's your answer—best parallel:

http://cluborlov.blogspot.com/2014/02/how-to-time-collapses.html

 

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 18:37 | 5106351 BrosephStiglitz
BrosephStiglitz's picture

I certainly agree that rising energy prices are of major significance to the West, particularly Europe.  I started studying about European energy security in my spare time in 2008.

There are a combination of different factors at play here.  The ratio of productive citizens:non-productive is going up (aging population).  Meaning more and more of a tax burden is placed upon any productive hubs within the economy.  Corporates, citizens, goods, services, properties etc. (plus any seniorage- which admittedly, based on the structure of the Eurozone monetary system is minimal).  That factor in itself reduces disposable income for existing producers and households.  When you add in a mix of excessive bureaucracy, high propensity to regulate and so on, it gets even worse.

There is no doubt that oil and gas imports are a major issue though.  They would just be more affordable if there wasn't a top-heavy population demographic draining the economy like a vampire squid.

Lots of factors cause the debt accumulation, most of which is foreign debt, but both of these factors are major contributors.  Japan also has some parallels with this whereby they are developed, manufacturing-centric, rely on foreign energy imports, and have an aging population.  One thing I will note is, it is hard to distinguish the causal relationship.  It is likely that both pop. demographics, and rising energy prices affect one another.

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 19:45 | 5106510 Escrava Isaura
Escrava Isaura's picture

BrosephStiglitz,

All good points, but not what I was trying to show you on that post.

We’re in a death spiral because:

A unit of new debt now produces much less than a unit of economic growth.

So left will be: Tax Properties and Savings.   


Then, add “H.R. 2847” and United States ‘Terms of Trade' (Foreign Direct Investments and Capital Flows) goes negative:


 http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-states/terms-of-trade  


This is a pattern of how Empire/Civilizations collapse: By the unintended consequences of its own complexities (solutions).

 

Mon, 08/18/2014 - 03:04 | 5107644 BrosephStiglitz
BrosephStiglitz's picture

Yes, I agree in this statement:

A unit of new debt now produces much less than a unit of economic growth.

I do not know about this:

Then, add “H.R. 2847” and United States ‘Terms of Trade' (Foreign Direct Investments and Capital Flows) goes negative:

Because this assumes that in the event that other nations/regions will default first, the US will be avoided as a safe-haven.  I see the Eurozone as and Japan as very high risk right now.  It could well be that capital flows actually seek the US in the short to medium term purely as a way to avoid the massive systematic risk within their own economies also consider the likelihood of possible Euro and Yen collapse, which would leave which currency with the depth of reserves to park capital? The yuan?  The ruble?  The pound?  Once government defaults start in earnest, interest rates will spike through the roof based on the risk premium, liquidity will dry up as credit simply stops flowing.  We are looking at a dust bowl style scenario.

It is going to be an interesting time.  Longer term, you are much more likely to be correct.  Very hard to say- what really needs to happen is creditors taking a hit for lending in stupid ways and debt write-offs.  I suspect this will need to be done at gunpoint, as in war, or civil unrest (neither of which I would personally advocate.)

Mon, 08/18/2014 - 18:23 | 5107872 Escrava Isaura
Escrava Isaura's picture

BrosephStiglitz,

I said it before. And I will say it again:

Savers need to figure out a way to collect some income in Paraguay.

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 15:12 | 5105714 SemperFudge
SemperFudge's picture

I know someone who was (is?) a chemist who told me she was working for a chemical company of some kind. I was like, "that's really cool!" Her completely unenthused response was something like "I'm a glorified test-tube scrubber."

 

A few months later, she was working as a server in a high-end restaurant. I think she's changed jobs a few times again since. 

 

Sigh... if a person is unemployed because their Ph.D. in English didn't pan out for them, that's kind of understandable. But isn't a STEM education supposed to be the cure-all? Apparently not.

 

Recovery my ass.

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 15:27 | 5105769 Skateboarder
Skateboarder's picture

Being of the same age group as you guys (26 here), I know the whole STEM thing only takes you so far. Even among the STEM types, we always seem to find this one particular statement that removes the potential from useful workers:

"I'm not good at math"

NO SHIT, cuz they taught it to all the wrong ways and completely killed your interest in the universe, so now whenever you hear the word "math," your brain turns off cuz "fuck that noise."

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 17:37 | 5106167 thethirdcoast
thethirdcoast's picture

Or they wind up like me with a BS and MS in electrical engineering at a job where they are not asked to use those math skills on a regular basis and they wind up forgetting the bulk of what they spent so much time learning in college.

And I am also one of those people that doesn't make money doing anything socially redeeming, I work in the MIC and they've got the golden handcuffs on me.

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 18:09 | 5106273 Skateboarder
Skateboarder's picture

It doesn't have to be that way. I work for a small business providing hw/sw/product design services. You can start your own consulting/design service company and be your own boss. It's unlikely while working for someone else that you will ever exercise the full extent of the accumulated and forgotten knowledge base of your BS and MS years, unless you do it yourself, for yourself.

Funny thing is, everyone works for the gubbamin, directly or indirectly.

Mon, 08/18/2014 - 01:54 | 5107584 AGuy
AGuy's picture

"And I am also one of those people that doesn't make money doing anything socially redeeming, I work in the MIC and they've got the golden handcuffs on me."

Cut yourself some slack. Virtually no one does anything socially redeeming. FWIW: its more important to do something that you find challenging and interesting to you, preferably doing something that would provide you at aleast a six digit salary. As Skateboard said you best option is to start you're own business.

For me, I am about done and going Galt (as soon as I find a decent piece of property). I see the end coming and I hope not to become  stuck halfway down a long tunnel with a freight train approaching.

Mon, 08/18/2014 - 06:30 | 5107788 FredFlintstone
FredFlintstone's picture

I assume that you don't have a SO? I think about going Galt from time to time and mention various scenarios to my wife. I would have to plan secretly and have it all ready to go. Then when the SHTF and is plain for all to see, then maybe she would get on board.

Mon, 08/18/2014 - 10:19 | 5108522 AGuy
AGuy's picture

"I assume that you don't have a SO?"

Yes, You are correct! I have tried very unsuccessfully to communicate the problems ahead to friends and family. Its like trying to convince a devolted catholic that God doesn't exist. Its utterly pointless and a big waste of time. 

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 18:27 | 5106321 Equality 7-25-1
Equality 7-25-1's picture

I saw all this coming so I got out of the way and made it a point to be the best at math. You need math? I can do your math. But in the process of mastering math I blew away the math model you all accept as TRUE. So now I coexist in another universe.

I don't see anything the way you do.

I AM THE BEST

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 15:31 | 5105781 BrosephStiglitz
BrosephStiglitz's picture

Up until 2012, I had not been out of work since the age of 15- that is 12 years.  At that point I lost my full time (graduate) job in an international business which had financial crisis exacerbated cash-flow issues. 

The private sector debt was so prevalent in this part of the world that cash was not flowing down from the big companies due to a lack of liquidity.  So yeah, I might as well just go back to scrubbing pots in a restaurant.  At least I know that people will pay cash money for a meal.

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 15:54 | 5105850 SemperFudge
SemperFudge's picture

Just don't give up hope.

 

And at any rate, if the economy crashes again soon we'll all be joining you anyways.

Sun, 08/17/2014 - 16:44 | 5105864 Things that go bump
Things that go bump's picture

Waitresses in high-end restaurants make a lot of money, most of it still in cash and only a percentage of that is claimed, especially if they're good at schmoozing the men. I'm sure your friend made out much better at that restaurant than she did at the chemical company. She probably was happier in her work too. Waitresses at such establishments also have an opportunity to make connections and maybe even find a high-end, eligible bachelor for themselves. It worked for Nicole Brown Simpson though that certainly didn't end well. 

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