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German Finance Minister Tells EU Leaders: Free Money Party's Over
Has Germany had enough? Hot on the heels of Mario Draghi's 'demands' that EU leaders undertake "structural reforms" to boost competitiveness and overcome the legacy of Europe's debt crisis, German Finance Minister Wolfgang Schaeuble unleashed perhaps the most worrisome statement tonight for all the free-money-party-goers - the music is about to stop. In an interview with Bloomberg TV, Schaeuble blasted "Europe needs to find ways to foster growth," adding that "the ECB has reached the limit in helping the Euro Area." In a clear shot across the bow of his 'core' cohort, Schaeuble said he "understood" Hollande's demands but shot back that "monetary policy can only buy time."
As WSJ notes, the French are seeking aid...
Growth in France had already ground to a halt in the first quarter, and Paris now says the persistent weakness means it won't be able to meet its deficit reduction target this year.
"We can't deny that certain geopolitical risks are playing a very important role at the moment. There are indicators of an economic slowdown," Mr. Schaeuble said in a joint press conference with Mr. Sapin.
...
French President Francois Hollande has proposed holding a euro-zone summit to discuss using the flexibility of EU treaties to slow the pace of deficit reduction. Mr. Schaeuble avoided saying whether Germany would approve a more flexible approach for any country in particular.
"Nobody has a lesson to give to anyone else because everyone knows the rules," Mr. Schaeuble said.
Germany has been reluctant to give up on fiscal discipline without seeing results from French promises to make structural changes to the economy in areas like labor law and welfare benefits. Europe last year already granted France a two-year delay to 2015 to bring its deficit within the EU rule of 3% of economic output--a target France is now likely to miss.
Mr. Sapin said the French president's request for a euro-zone meeting is to discuss the currency bloc's problems as a whole, not France's specifically.
"It's in no way a demand for an extension--that I can tell you straight away," Mr. Sapin said.
Which means only one thing - it is a demand for an extension... which perhaps explains Schaeuble's extreme tone this evening (bia Bloomberg):
- *SCHAEUBLE SAYS HE 'UNDERSTANDS' HOLLANDE'S EU ECONOMIC PLAN
- *SCHAEUBLE SAYS EUROPE NEEDS TO FIND WAYS TO FOSTER GROWTH
- *SCHAEUBLE SAYS ECB HAS REACHED LIMIT IN HELPING EURO AREA
- *SCHAEUBLE SAYS MONETARY POLICY CAN ONLY BUY TIME
As he explains:
"Monetary policy can only buy time,’’ Schaeuble said in the interview yesterday.
“Liquidity in markets is not too low, it’s even too high. Therefore I think monetary policy has come to the end of its instruments and therefore what we urgently need is investments, regaining confidence by investors, by markets, by consumers."
"I don't think ECB monetary policy has the instruments to fight deflation, to be quite frank,” Schaeuble said.
Schaeuble said he’s confident that “my French colleagues will do what’s needed in line with the rules that have been agreed again and again.”
"It’s very important that we all know in Europe -- every member state -- that we have to stick to structural reforms and enhance competitiveness, even in Germany."
Yet another nail in the coffin of any large scale sovereign asset purchase scheme...
* * *
With pressure from the French on Draghi to do "whatever it takes" again (for real this time) it appears this is as clear a message from Zee Germans that they won't stand for anymore.
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Bankers will be bankers--World Bank project manager in Monrovia, Liberia steals the $87K emergency fund that was supposed to be used to help fight Ebola.
http://allafrica.com/stories/201408261206.html
Just call him; Wolfgang Schadenfreude
Time...bought 8 fucking years...
Douche
my favorite part is the french asking for 'flexibility regarding EU treaties"
which really just means the french want direct monetization of their debt, like the fed is doing with the US, by the ECB, even though their treaties specifically prohibit it from doing that, if my understanding is correct. Also, I seem to recall that it was zee germans who insisted that be part of the bargain
Good point, Carl. Talk is cheap, but groveling? That's always free. And in the case of the French, very entertaining to boot.
I guess this means Tuesday the S&P opens at 1950, only to work it's way back to even by the close.
“Free Money Party's Over”
No way dude..
It is our God-given right to create credt from nothing until every peon on the planet worships our banks!
They already do, especially Eric Holder.
He extracts money from banks and gives the money...NOT to the victims, but various leftist hate groups:
http://www.judicialwatch.org/blog/2014/08/doj-give-leftist-groups-cut-b-...
Deutsche Mark being printed as we speak. No moar Euros or Shekels svp (s'il vous plait)!!! Und yah!
Germany doesn't get to decide when they've had enough. That's up to their American slave masters. Those Krauts need to stop complaining and tow the line.
A new low: silly comments, grammatical errors, and the usual blog pimping. Well done, sir.
Seek and watch the thread.
For MY part, I will dedicate this video to the conclusion that the GERMANS will be most likely to be the first to break with the NATO accord (as oppsed to the French, who are pussies).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9AbeALNVkk
Yep, nothing will change anytime soon.
WaPo, DailyKos blame Bush, Cheney for ISIS terror techniques:
http://tinyurl.com/ox7a3yt
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Will scrape your balls.
Is the white guy the Quarterback, the Coach, or the Warden?
Precious Metals Markets: China vs US
https://www.bullionstar.com/article/precious%20metals%20markets%20china%...
Bluffing. I don't think the German's have any leverage. The EU is hollowing out economically with more to go, Russia is going to cut off energy supplies in about a week just in time for reserves to run out just in time for the first blizzards of 2015, NATO is going to rattle sabres until every man Jack is ready to jump off a bridge, and ebola is going to show up in a Paris suburb and visit absolute daily horror on the Western world.
Nobody is going to care what the Germans demand starting in about 72 hours from ... now.
Exactamundo
Drahgi works for GS and JPM, not The Reich
My money say Draghi will say anthing but will not do a single thing to hurt the currency unless it's survival is at stake.
So no QE.
Um.. last I looked all those nines are the phone numbers for naked German TV ads.
Sooo... 2 minutes ago?
ze Germans are not bluffing ...they're shifting position and giving notice of it.. see the cracks appearing in the Eurozone Titanics hull?
Well what do you expect with high carbon rivets on the hull and bulkheads?
.. and oh, it's the ads on late night German broadcast TV has has many nines in the phone numbers.
I've never dialed them when over there.. my German is limited to ya and nein.
But then again, maybe all I would need next time is to know oo and ah, as well as a credit card number.
so, you're saying there IS a chance the Paris Suburbs are going to be cleaned up!!
Germany is the backstop for the Euro and the Euro projects. Schauble knows that Italy, France and Spain are all in the economic knacker yard with no possibility of exitting there in the short to medium term. It is dificult to envisage how structural reform can take place in economies where there no prospect of growth without taking on more debt.
Two options :
allow countries to take on more debt in the (false) hope that they may begin to perform at a later point.
allow some measure of sovereign default.
It doesn't sound like the ESM is going to be coming to the rescue anytime soon.
Only the left (truly with greater support everyday) in Spain wants the Draghi QE.
At the same time, growing concern (I think at less rate than left growth) in Spain about economics is being taking place. A lot of economists are writing books (and selling them) and appearing in tv shows explaining the "Austrian Theory" (scholastics of Salamanca are said to be the antecessors of the Austrian school). There are many univesities and centenary institutions concerned about spreading the ideas of freedom in Spain (very weak since Franco and ulterior welfare-statization).
If freedom ideas triunph (again, despite long time ago) in Spain, don't expect a french behaviour. I tell you. I live in Spain (and I was born here). Spain is one of the most intrinsically anarchist group of countries that ever existed. That means that it's not easy to "control" people here. If the official 25% of unemployed were really unemployed, we wre on civli war by now here. I think some of the same can be said for Italians. Additionally, many people here has lived or worked with German people and not all of us feel very different from them in many subjects.
Sadly, greater acceptance of marxism and keynesianism is also taking place here. Even the left is using Argentina and Venezuela as "heros against the Troika" to be taken as reference. Madness...
The die is cast here, let's see what happens, but my bet is that it won't be QE from BCE and that if Germany strikes a blow on the table many civil sectors in Spain will be with Germany towards more "less state" and less "more currency" (austerity for governments, not for the people).
"If freedom ideas triunph (again, despite long time ago) in Spain, don't expect a french behaviour. I tell you. I live in Spain (and I was born here). Spain is one of the most intrinsically anarchist group of countries that ever existed."
CONFEDERATE SONG ~ THE SOUTH WILL RISE AGAIN
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1YWGuwtsskU
You think it's not going to? The U.S. is, probably, going to break into four pieces, and the South will be one. They might even revive the name and the flag just to poke a finger in the eye of the NE. The difference this time is the South is going to have all the gun and Ammo manufacturing facilities. They are all moving South as we speak.
Mi amigo Don Quiote, perdone but you are living in a fantasy. Spain is Bourgeoise. Period. Full stop. Remember when the Winsdor Bldg. burnt down in a blatant act of arson and what did the "anarchists" do then? Same thing the bourgeoise do everytime, lay on the stomachs and beg for more. I repeat, if you think the Spanish are going to revolt, well, buena suerte with that.
I don't see the part where the OP said anything about a revolt. I understood his/her comments to mean that, while official figures talk about 25+% unemployment, people are quietly working under the table in order to make ends meet. "Anarchist" in this context suggests that there's a thriving grey or black market; not that everyone's a bomb-throwing radical.
Austerity (no perpertual growth) or (well) Perpetual Growth. Tough choice... Hope the Germans enjoy the riots.
Will Mr Yellen "loan" out the "golden printer"?
The golden printer is only gold plated.
yes, Blackrock was hired fr no purpose other than to hand an American firm more money in addition to what the Fed already provides.
Arrest the Rothschilds and Rockefellers. Prosecute them for war crimes. Move to bitcoin as a currency. Long live the Keiser.
Let's Reflect on Patriarchy and how it Brain Washes us all.
English, German, Nazi, American. You brought up the sneeky bastards in Banking... why do we buy stocks thinking we get Equity when we have no Stock Certificate? Why do we find out that we don't know who owns our mortagage, Deriviative Rehypothication, and not fight about it... scratch at it till we find the truth.
Related Story of English Patriarchs:
http://www.scmp.com/news/world/article/1581224/how-english-town-let-asia...
Mind Control & Lower Intelligence comes from some place.
We all allow ourselves to believe in Authority Figures... even on the most important things... we accept false info and lies... instead of Investigating, Exposing, Demanding to Be Taught.
Rich Elites are in every country. They lie to us. They control politicians that Lie to US.
- No need for Ratings Agencies with Integrity?
- No need for GAAP Accounting Rules
- No problem with MERS in Mortgage Electronic Commerce?
- No problem with Systemic Fraud in all US Markets?
- No problem with Money in Politics and hidden financial networks, crony insider networks, $700 Trillion in Derivatives?
Grow up.
When in the history of mankind has the world been better?
When?
Well, did you read the Declaration of Independence and believe it.
Yes, you are Right. USA recruited Nazis & Fascist at the end of WWII... We wanted to create Stay behind armies all over Europe to fight against a Communist Invasion. Then we passed the National Security Act and created the CIA to manage all of it. Weapons Caches, Explosives, Magazines for storage, money, new cold war strategies to convince citizens of the danger of left wing communists terrorist attacks.
Hm... actually it is the same Model isn't it?
I still have a thing for the US Constitution & our Individual Rights... Natural Rights.
Clearly G.W. Bush, Dick Cheney, Don Rumsfeld, Bill Clinton, Hillery Clinton, and Barak Obamba... never watch Mash on TV or notice the Mash exhibit in the Smithsonian Museum.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covert_United_States_foreign_regime_change...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_regime_change
Fuck Me.
- No Problem with $59 Trillion in Total US Debt today when we had like almost nothing in the early 1970s?... except for the Vietnam Public Debt?
"When in the history of mankind has the world been better?"
Answer: Probably 1901-1913 in the USA. Maybe out to 1920 in the USA. We didn't know about the military interventions in the Caribbean, Central & South America (as far as I know it was like the innocence of the 1950s in that sense). But how about the Age of Enlightenment... not sure if knowledge was freely spread around by talking in public places... The Age of Enlightenment seems to be a time of people creating and learning. How do you like that?
- But from like 1860 - 1913 the Farmers had problems with the gold currency being denominated too high and financing crops each year(sector problem).
Question More!! Question Authority!!
OR Die & Kiss US Constitution GOODBYE-BYE!
You're a pro at distortion.
Yeah, my adolescent fantasy about sovereignty, Liberty, Freedom for all races & Religions... fuck, that is just the stuff of fake political speeches by... gay... founding fathers... and their butt boys.
No, don't apologize.
Clearly when you order a boy to your chambers... you expect complete obedience.
Fuck, when you earn $80K or $120K, shit you don't have to respond to questions from peasants...
- Hey, try this. Get off of Federal contract pay or Federal Employment before you hit me with this. Agent. Shill.
$80K-$120K is chump change you peasant.
It is you that need to grow up and stop living in the past.
"It is now easier to kill a million people that control them" -Zbigniew Brzezinski
The game has changed.
Alternatively stay in the kindergarten of your outdated platitudes.
The 70s
Which 70s?
ZH has it's hand full of EU supporters, who have from time to time ripped into my anti EU stance, hinting that the great EU project is just to great and heroic an enterprise for the small minded opponents to grasp. All the great things flowing from Brussels and it's bastion of freedom, capitalism, economic growth, monetary expertise, NATfreedom spreading foreign policy and other such great things the EU and the Euro has brought to Europe. The results they say, speak for themselves. WHO could doubt that the EU has saved Europe and is the way forward for ever and ever, with no possible other track to choose.
Well, you can praise the EU. Myself, I am here to bury the EU. Anti democatic, corporate whores, open bordess welfare loving money printers, elite whores and slavish dogs to Neoliberal economics. Brussels which is a whore house for pampered thugs who claim powers that make Stalin's ghost blush. I want to piss on the EU's grave and take back countires where I have an interest and restore liberty and deomocracy and never let a super European state take it away again.
Post of the day, Jack.
Europe has done the same thing as the USA
- Pick the winners in the Economy, but do nothing to expand jobs
- Allow masses of immigrants over the border, allow the culture to be diluted, allow pockets of uneducated ghettos to be created, allow public education to deteriorate
- Pose that Service Jobs will be a very strong sector in the economy
- Ignore the problems of unemployed youth & minorities
- Hail US NATO Dollars and American Bases & Employment as great strengths
- Supported US Wars
- Joined ECB Banking & Monetary Policies with US, UK, Japan
- Enjoyed the migration from Poland, Latvia, Russia for the Low Skilled Labor in Agriculture & House Work (US has Mexico)
I doubt there has been Middle Class Expansion in Europe or the UK... Industry is pretty much flat, Middle Class is going to be Flat or Declining. Wages are low, Household Debt is high especially in the UK.
Like Patriarchs who have the knowledge & money, they don't share they just Extract the Labor & Resources from the Countries... Call them the new Royalty, but probably is the same families as before WWII...Just like in the USA mostly.
It goes back a very very long way. All of recorded history, and who knows before that. Since we have no real records, we assume the world has always been like this... But this is only because tptb want it that way.
Yes, it seems that Oral History is accurate and a good historical record proven by names of cities and people.
- Historians think the Hebrew Version of the Old Testament is a good source of history and what happened, this is probably different from the history you heard from the Bible or Church
- Sumer & Akkad seem to have stones carved with laws about slaves, wives, loss of life, contracts, divorce, social programs, silver currency equivalents to goods and work, education, health care... it seems to be all there just like today... maybe the problem was in Israel with the Money Changers and later the Knights Templar Credit System...?
History shows that we just repeat old patterns.
- 5000 years of laws written in stone, we still can't get this straight since Power & Money corrupts the laws.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_of_Ur-Nammu
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_of_Hammurabi
The problem has more to do with the fact that laws written on paper do not confine men that live in the world where that paper is mainly for kindling.
Nice post, the ancient Sumerian King Lists begin with the line...
"When Kingship was first lowered from heaven to earth it was at Eridu."
As above so below; the earthly hierarchy mirrors the celestial hierachy.
Amen!
For sure there Mr Jack, The euro is going to be ground zero for the western world....America for sure has it's problems, but I'm glad to not be in the eurozone for what's coming.....least of all a coooold winter.
I've noticed the lack of a good Nigel Farage rant for a while now..
Anyone else love the cringes in the front-row when they introduce the guy?
"All the great things flowing from Brussels and it's bastion of freedom, capitalism, economic growth, monetary expertise, NATfreedom spreading foreign policy and other such great things the EU and the Euro has brought to Europe."
That is not a complete sentence, Jack. If you ended it with "...are complete bullshit!" then you would have made a coherent sentence.
Regarding making "...Stalin's ghost blush" no one thinks the EU project comes anywhere close to the crazy, evil shenanigans perpetrated by the USSR. To say otherwise is to paste a label on your forehead that reads "CRANK".
What "news" are they feeding you folks in Russia today? Have your great Oligarchs completely undermined your sense of history? I suspect your educational system must be based on the American model, Jack, and that is a tragedy! Every tinpot dictator and crackpot and crass Nouveau Rich SOB all over the globe seems to want to destroy a good public education as their top priority. Don't let them do it!
But Jack, are you equally against Putin's planned Eurasian market?
While I'm at it, isn't it nice that we have had 70+ years with no major war in Europe? What do you think that is worth? What about having the right to protest and to join a party that opposes the ruling party? What is that worth to you?
Putins planned Eurasian market is good for Eurasia. not so good for American Monopoly.
That misses the point of the question.
Are you seriously suggesting the EU is good for the people of Europe? You don't need some stinking bloated bureaucracy designed soley to enrich corporations to prevent war between two European countries, all you need is common sense.
You've swallowed the propoganda hook, party line and sinker. Allegiances within Europe coulkd turn on a dime if the standard of living degrades too much further in the perisphery.
But you keep spinning that line that the EU is good for the middle class.
Are you seriously suggesting that the EU is something the Peoples of Europe don't want? Which is a point that is more easily proved or disproved than if it's "good" or not?
Last time I looked, I've found that there still is a middle class in Europe
Who are the greatest enemies of the middle class? Currency devaluation and globalization. Is the ECB devaluing or going into QE? Is the EU embracing full opening of all trade barriers? The answers are both no
That "stinking bloated bureaucracy" meme isn't spin? Last time I looked, the EU had 30'000 civil servants for a population of 500'000'000, with a freshly elected EU parliament by the peoples with multiparty systems and confederating principles in the appointments of the commission - note the squabble that is still going on about the next foreign affairs commissioner
"designed solely to enrich corporations"? compared to what? countries that have lost their sense of anti-trust measures? yes, Brussels has lobbyists. everybody has some
Jack Burton's stance starting the thread is nearly too ridiculous to comment, mixing up the EU with the eurozone with the NATO. Just have a look at this part of his comment "Anti democatic, corporate whores, open bordess welfare loving money printers, elite whores and slavish dogs to Neoliberal economics". EU Parliament? The Four Freedoms? The ECB not being part of the EU and not printing?
damn, I posted again. and I already feel it was such a waste of effort
Poor Jack Burton, hitting on the "underdog, pls like me button" of "ZH has it's hand full of EU supporters, who have from time to time ripped into my anti EU stance..."
and I don't even see myself as a supporter of the EU, only an enemy of bullshit
Got to give you credit for a thoughtful reply but we'll see how much longer the open borders last when people are starting to go hungry.
that question is even harder to answer in the short blog comment format. yes, we have greater populations than in let's say 1840. but no, we were able to feed them, then, and reached greater populations by feeding them first with additional distribution technologies like railways propelled by coal. and... both are still here
this "people go hungry" meme is an American one. you can't mix it with our "socialism" of supporting the poor. of all economies of the world, the one least dependent from imported fossil fuels is... the european continent. and you know why? because so much of our infrastructure and urbanizations predate that age
the sad truth is that even with cheap oil and more northern general location, our current energy consumption is half that of the average American. And our propensity to save energy is uncomparable
in a pinch, we can feed ourself without energy imports. even (for sake of argument) going back to horses and carriages. WWII's early German Wehrmacht employed four millions of them, with a handful of trucks. We have channels that go back to the middle ages. We have our major population centers near coasts and navigable rivers
no, I'm not saying that we would like it. I'm just pointing at the historic facts about us, particularly on when we grew and with what kind of technologies
For a man who is reluctant to post (at least, that is what I read between the lines in your first comment) you're quite the busy bee this morning, Ghordius.
Keep them coming, always a good read.
So you won't mind supporting the PIIGS in perpetuity.
By the way...France seems to have a bit of trouble with those structural rules.
I predict more Euro 'elasticity'.
Ghordo -
I don't think the question has been posed to the various peoples of Europe yet. There was this question about a free trade zone back in the 70s, but why a free trade zone needs its own parliment, foreign ministry, anthem, capital, etc., etc., is beyond me.
your answer is a rethorical device. pointing to a certain illegitimity of everything that was not solved by a recent referendum. by that, you make our elected parliaments sound as if they were full of people elected on the base of false promises
you supported a pro-EU and anti-EUR party in Germany, for example. which received 9% of the popular vote and 9% of the German seats in the EU Parliament
the German political landscape did not even have a anti-EU and anti-EUR party that made more than 0.3%. And don't tell me this is because the voters don't vote for parties that they think they would not gain seats
further, your "free trade zone" meme is a purely British one. The political discussion in France, Germany and Italy was always about more cooperation. In fact, that was the French president's warning that the UK was angling for admission only for the free trade part
the Parliament is a democratic & transparency "device". The EU foreign "minister" is a commissioner, it has to do what the council of the EU foreign ministers tell her to do. In doubt, the elected EU Parliament has a word to say, too, or can kick her out
the anthem, the flag... so what? is there any army behind them? and... Brussels is the capital of Belgium. the EU has no official capital. by design, because otherwise we would have to make something like the District of Columbia
Come on Ghordo, don't be mad.
There were a few referendums, the French in 2005 as well as the Dutch in the same year, and then lets not forget about the Irish a few years back.
Lastly, I would point out to you there is a material difference between cooperation and a confederation. Saying the EU is all about cooperation and nothing more is a straw men. If the EU was JUST about cooperation, everyone would be for it. The problem is that the EU is about more than cooperation -- which was not voted for.
And while you say "hey look -- there are anti-EU parties in Europe" lets look at these parties honestly. All the anti-EU parties are NEW political movements, less than 20 years old. Before that, both sides of the political spectrum were Pro-EU. This illustrates the lack of democracy within the EU and its construction process.
yes, I do get incensed about referenda and their misuse. The referenda you are pointing to were with this question: "Do you want a European Constitution"?
Which is not the same as "do you want to get rid of the current setup"? In fact, it was a confirmation of the policy of using treaties only
and the Irish referenda... they are the most misused of all, in propagandistic terms. note that most propaganda wants to acknowledge only one out of a set of two
you yourself voted for a mildly PRO-EU party (though on the skeptical side about further cooperation) that is strongly ANTI-EUR
you can't claim that Germans have only the choice between Reps and Dems. and you can't claim that in your Germany it's even thinkable that a EU exit referendum would pass, at the moment. sorry, your "lack of democracy" does not float, you don't have the numbers (yet?)
as I said, you are using a rethorical device that is suited to the British EU-Exit discussion... only. Where a majority of Britons would vote yes and Parliament does... not. I blame their FPTP voting system for that
and resembling de-facto through treaties a near confederation is not the same as being one - which would have been possible if the French and the Dutch voted yes to a constitution. BTW, how does it sound to our American Cousins's ears our unwillingness to have a common constitution? does it even register?
and, again, the EUR matter is not in the compentence of the EU. If you want Germany to exit the currency union, you need a majority in the Bundestag and Bundesrat, not in the EU Parliament. The bloody door is open, but it's a national one. In fact, there are 18 doors
Germany has an interesting relationship to the EU. And while you point out (and quite accurately) that any "member state" can leave at any time, in theory, you have failed to address the lack of democracy in the entity's construction.
I put "in theory" in italics, because, in the past 3 years there have been two democratically elected leaders that were deposed/forced out for doing nothing but offering their peoples a referendum on EU membership. So while, in theory, a nation could leave, the EU will hold onto power in any way possible, whether democratic or not.
Be careful being a EU cheerleader man.
the two democratically elected leaders were on sufferance of their elected parliaments, appointed by them through coalition politics, with the parliaments having the right to kick them out and have new ones. Just lately, the current Italian PM was just a mayor. He forced a party vote, became the leader of the PD, rediscussed things with the other coalition members, convinced the Prez that he had the numbers, and was appointed so with those numbers
further, it was the national capitals/governments that repeatedly asked Greece and Italy to "do something". It's called diplomacy
what is this "lack of democracy" again? the elected EU Parliament has to agree on everything. On commissioners, laws and regulations. Which have to be proposed by the member sovereign nations. You sometimes treat the EU only as an org, and forget Berlin, Paris, London, etc.
if you have problems with parliamentarism, then say so. but don't call parliamentarism "undemocratic" only because you dislike it. I dislike presidentialism, for example, but don't call it "undemocratic"
I don't have a problem with parliamentarism. I have a problem with EU funds funding national political parties.
The EU Parliment cannot make legislation -- it can merely vote on whether it likes it or not, and if the EU Parliment says no 3 times, the Comission has the ability to override the Parliment. The Parliment in the EU is like the Soviet Duma -- there to distract the people.
funding of national parties is a continental european tradition. fully in line with all national party funding laws, which in some coutries even grant free TV adverts
at the other side of the spectrum, you have the US system with it's super-PACs. if this is "socialist" vs "capitalist", then yes, I prefer the first version
nope, the commission has no right to override parliament. this is badly crafted propaganda
yes, the EU parliament has no right to propose legislation. one of the features of the EU, which puts the national democratic institutions of the member countries as the only one that can legitimately propose anything about the EU
EU funding of national parties is a tradition?
it is in Germany, Italy, France, Belgium and others since - from memory - WW2. the EU format is based on existing national laws
usually based on refunds of expenses dependent from how many votes the party received. and TV times, don't forget TV ads in national TV networks. look it up, I'm not kidding you
nearly everything in the EU is based on long-standing national precedents. That's one of the reasons our British Cousins suffer so much, we do have continental political traditions which resemble each other... but often not the British "exceptional" ones
your AfD got some EU refunds for it's EU votes, too. is AfD a German or an European party? in this case, an EU one
here the German situation: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parteienfinanzierung_(Deutschland)#Finanzierung_aus_staatlichen_Mitteln
Look at this very article: the German FM is one of the ministers of the German Federal Government, which is supported by a coalition of parties. He is also a member of the EU Council of Financial Ministers, which proposes/votes on EU "stuff" to be then confirmed by the Council itself, where Merkel, Hollande, etc. also have to vote by country, to be then confirmed or rejected by the EU Parliament
now, is Schäuble an "eurocrat"? no
he is fundamentally one of the leaders of the German CDU first, then one of the leaders of the coalition that has a majority in the German Bundestag, then appointed by the elected Bundestag to be the German Finance Minister, and only in virtue of that he is the German member of the EU Council of Finance, which discusses proposals with the EU Commission (which is appointed by the Council and confirmed by the EU Parliament, and can be kicked out by both), and those proposals are voted on in the EU Council proper, which is composed of all national heads of governments of 28 countries, to be then confirmed or rejected in the EU Parliament
do you realize how many people do have to agree on whatever he proposes? starting with the CDU, which could recall him at any time, leaving all those ladders to fall down?
compare it with people who are elected directly and there is nearly no way to get rid of them
Try this little experiment, Asteroid, just for the fun of it: in your post, replace "EU" with "USA" and "countries" with "communities". Still makes sense, doesn't it? That is simply because we share a lot of vices on both sides of the pond.
And pray tell me, what country will not be subject to social unrest and violence if the standard of living would degrade too much? I can only think of one right now, which is Japan. It is a miracle countries like Greece and Spain are still holding up so well as it is.
Where I agree with NoVictim, is that you guys only highlight the negative aspects of the EU, which is intellectually unfair. And although I'm worried by the lack of transparancy and due democratic process in the current EU, it goes without saying I still would rather be living here than in the former USSR. That comparison is just silly. Of course, since I'm as paranoid as the next guy: what the future will hold might be a different story altogether.
All this being said, I don't think the EU in its current form will hold. At the first sign of trouble nationalist reflexes resurface, making a coherent approach toward any serious problem... challenging. And this systemic economic problem we're facing right now certainly has the potential to tear us apart in the EU. IMHO we should have been more modest when we conceptionalised the whole thing, because a truly political union was never in the cards. Too many French and Italians around to make that happen. And maybe that's just as well, too. I've always liked the concept of some stiff internal opposition as a safeguard.
the EU can't really be compared to the US. Yes, it makes regulations on the size of beer cans, something that in the US happens at state level (see Florida, for example). This gives the impression of more centralization... because the casual observer might assume the rest is centralized, too
just look at "state servants". the EU has 30'000, all of them concentrated in one city. The member countries have dozen of millions, including all of the militaries and police forces, and 99.9% of the judiciary
why are you missing a due democratic process in the EU? did you forget to vote for the EU Parliament elections early this year? Have you forgotten that the Council - which is nothing else than the appointed governments of the member countries - have at least as much to say on EU policies as the EU parliament?
First off, you're right of course that the structures of the EU and the US as such cannot be compared. My proposal to compare was more of a "spielerei" to highlight the point that Europe has no monopoly on the challenges and difficulties mentioned.
As far as the EU workforce is concerned, to me it is less important to know how many EU civil servants are actually employed than whether they are usefully and efficiently employed. In other words, size in itself is not a valid argument, because effectiveness as a consequence of limited size is a non sequitur. It might be and often is relevant, but not necessarily so. I hear a lot of talk about the high costs and bureaucratic nature of this administration. Do you find it transparant enough to give it your blessing? I know I have my doubts.
Finally, I knew you were going to counter me on the due democratic process remark and rightly so. Because there is indeed a formal democratic process. But you see - and here the discussion will turn somewhat vague, hence difficult - I still think there is a democratic deficit, in spite of those elections, because I personally do not feel the connection to the European level through those elections. Elections are compulsory in Belgium so I've never missed one. But we already have enough layers of government as it is: when I vote, I have to make choices on a local (city-province), regional (Flemish) and federal (Belgian) level. I feel too much distance with the European level and I believe I'm not the only one. In short, I do not really feel represented and I know that is less a rational argument than an emotional one.
Besides, I'll admit I was shocked when people like Monti and Papadimos suddenly arrived on stage, almost out of nowhere, it would seem. Assuredly, Berlusconi was a buffoon, but he was a democratically elected buffoon, and I was left with the firm impression that our European level had suddenly intervened in the affairs of a democratic member state in a not so democratic fashion.
ah, a Belgian! Well, yes, you do take parliamentarism to certain... extremes. how many special constituency parliaments do you have again? 12?
I disagree about Monti and Papademos. Both were appointed by their national parliaments, who kicked out their predecessors. I profoundly dislike this British stance that sounds so good to American ears about certain PMs being more valid than others, then it undermines the principle of Parliamentarism per se, and tries to validate requests for "tighter" electoral laws resulting in one "winning" FPTP party claiming more legitimacy than it's oppositions
if you want a "direct connection", then you'd have to vote for one President, like the US, France, Romania and lately Turkey. And I intensely dislike presidentialism, particularly because at the end often not more than one third of the votes are necessary to elect a president, with one third against and one third discouraged to vote
Berlusconi? I defended him on this blog, time ago. But I also defend the right of the Italian and Greek Parliaments to kick out an incumbent and to appoint a new government
Especially when those parlimentary coalition memers are threatened with a cutoff of party funding unless they have a vote of no confidence.
that's propaganda. it would be clearly illegal to do so
Don't go over the top, Ghordius, we only have 6 parliaments in Belgium for a grand total of approximately 11 million inhabitants. In other countries, city councils govern that many people, but over here we don't do simplicity.
As far as Monti goes, you sure everything was kosher under the surface? Because it's all very well to point out everything was done by the book, but somehow I still suspect foul play. Ah well, that's just me and my tinfoil hat, you know. As I mentioned before, I'm as paranoid as the next guy.
As far as the presidency goes, no thank you, we already have a king (on top of all the rest, but at least he spares me the trouble of having to go to the voting booth).
Finally, I'm just curious: care to reveal your nationality to me, or should I have guessed that one by now?
nothing is ever fully kosher under the surface of party politics. but yes, Monti had first to be appointed senator by the Italian Prez, and Berlusconi was losing his wafer-thin majority, even to the point to start bribing for votes
compare to how Renzi elbowed himself into his PM seat, described as a "party golpe"
nothing to reveal, it's just... complicated. I have several, and could ask for more, all strictly on the continent, though. you aren't the only ones not going for simplicity
novictim; Not sure if you listened to Greg Morse or know his story... I'll include it for shock value on how the whole mortgage and stock market is controlled by one holding company that really owns most US Assets:
Caravan To Midnight - Episode 110 Capital Kinetics with Greg Morse
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmJKrhWucC0
www.saveourfamilyandhome.com -
How the hell can you look at Herman Van Rompuy, Dominique Gaston André Strauss-Kahn, Christine Lagarde, Ioannes Claudius Juncker... and not know these are Privileged Elites who favor Fascism?
Rompuy... yeah, he must be in the know, but he looks like a Nazi Right?
F**K what do you think the Red Brigade and Red Army faction was about? It was because the Fascist Nazis were still in control of Germany after WWII. It was a youth movement that looked at Truth in Government.
I say the German Nazis, Fascist Italy, Fascist Spain, some parts of Scandinavia (the Nazi supporters), the UK, the French, and the USA all joined to form a pact to keep people strong, militaristic, right wing, and anti-communist... but in a way that profits insiders, crony capitalists, and selects universities & organizations to win... with threat of revoking funding.
Money the Root of Congress & Evil.
Surely EU project has made a contribution to 70 years of relative peace, but it is far from being the only factor. Creators were full of idealism and energy, when started, but EU became soon hijacked by people, who turned it into a personal gravy train and its sustainability today, because of lavish spending requires over national liability for many countries corrupt spending sprees. This is not, what the nations signed in the Maastricht Treaty. More worrying is tendency to try avoid sovereign popular votes on this issue. This antidemocratic organization is now like a revolution, which ended at a people´s republic, where leader bureaucrats are always right and regulate subjects to a minor detail. Add to this a plan to expand into new realms in the East and there you have now your elephant in the room.
'Personal Gravy Trains" are the threat of any democracy that fails to police itself. Russia is a horrendous example of this. The USA is another. In comparison, the EU looks pretty good.
Regarding the democratic system of the EU, I would have to say that it is up to the member-states as to how democratic THEY are when they choose the European Parliament members and the Council members.
So I have to say that the Maastricht treaty provided EXACTLY what member communities wanted: A democratic say in the affairs of Europe, a common currency and system that can be modified and perfected as the members see fit.
LOL.
We all know that we need a massive bureaucracy to do business right. How the hell could someone in the UK do business with someone in Germany without bureaucracy?
In the case of Brusells, the bureaucracy is expanding to meet the needs of the expanding bureaucracy.
You end with a non sequitur. Correlation does not equate to causation, 70 years of peace could also be to do with nuclear weapons. How about the UK between 1815 and 1914, almost a hundred years with almost no major with Europe, was that also due to the EU too? Jack may have been educated in the US but you appear to have been educated in a zoo. Do you hold a useless degree in European Social Policy or something?
You have to Google: US -EU Merger Working Group.
One link is the FTC, and the other is justice.gov.
http://ec.europa.eu/competition/ecn/mergers.html
Connect the dots. Sitting outside away from my desktop. Do your homework while I blog on another device. Another beautiful evening in Charleston, SC. ;vp
It took them 300 plus years to catch up with the escapees.
I have been saying this for a while: IF Hitler could see what the EU have accomplished he will congratulate them. The EU managed to conquire ALL of Europe without firing a single shot. In fact they were so good, countries such as Bulgaria(where Im from), Roumania begged to be accepted into the EU. Excellent job, EU!
Frederick The Great. For the last 3-400 hundred years of the Roman Empire, their soldiers were mercenary Anglos. And if some fool contest the idea that the Anglo Saxons were ever defeated, tell the smartass to look up who William The Conqueror's grandfather was. Any left?
His maternal grandfather was a PEASANT--a tanner--, his paternal great great --grandfather was Rollo the Viking; aka Kirk Douglas, who conquered Normandy from the French king and was later baptised.
So sorry, no John Wayne in that movie.
Not sure if Hitler would be impressed that no one was killed off in the process...
@ Jack
Europe is a net creditor with no trade deficit.
Europe has small armies.
The EU may be a problem in itself but individual country policies within Europe spelled doom even for these reckless, free spending countries with deluded populations that seem to have a DNA based desire to shoot the seemingly endless government monetary heroin in the form of social benefits.
The socialist endgame is at hand.
You got your definitions really mixed up. "Socialism" got nothing to do with what the EU is doing. Try "corporitism". The contries practricing socialsm were always fine and on top of the ebst places to live in the world: Norway, Sweden, Swetzerland, Denmark. The problem started with the EU. But don't worry it's avery common mistake that people in the USA make who have NO idea what socialsm really is.
Trustbutverify:
Hey, try this. Get off of Federal contract pay or Federal Employment before you hit me with this. Agent. Shill.
EU is nothing but a westernized version of the Soviet Union. I'm sure that in their minds, the EU top bureaucrats would love to think about it as an "enlightened" version too. Alas, that it soo not the case...
"Liberty and Democracy" ... in the same breath?
The two are mutually-exclusive.
Pity,'cos it was a good rant up until then.
Amen!
Jack Burton,
You never cease to amaze me. Well stated post. I would of summed it up this way.
Eurotrash will have return back to work, cash burn crisis is on front burner. We cannot find a new donor to support our loafer lifestyle.
Same boat as the US.
THE PROBLEM IS TOO MUCH DEBT.
More debt does not solve a debt problem.
All time records of debt in EVERY sector
How can we increase debt service?
Cut Govt. by 1/3? Never happen.
Cut benefits by 1/3? Riots. Never happen.
Increase productivity and wages by 1/3? Yeah right.
What's the answer?
Borrow more or default.
How long can you borrow?
We will see.
This shit ain't rocket science.
Default is the only way out. When the Shit hits the fan, it going to explosive diarhea splattering every coner of the globe.... Marshall law and IMF chicanery......Then a gold back monetary system.
Mathematical reality enema.
Keep a pot handy.
Still sounds better than "German rearmament."
"Just tell us what currency and you shall be repaid!"
Don't worry France! We will always have Belgium there to bail out everybody.
Looks like it's time to short the usd after Draghi jawbones us to death on the 4th. (next week)
More specifically, the IMF, Bank of International Settlements, or Wall Street Carry Trade. Elaborate your long term goal fucknuts.
This isn't rocket science. Blips in the market is because you don't answer the phone. Don't forget about the bounty. They will level your protection.
Ring, ring, ring, ring. You are a stupid fuck..
Asset seizure is just around the corner.
France will be the test where retirement savings are replaced by govt bonds.
it sounds like wolfgang has his panties in a wad
They all do. Plan is not going to plan. Central Planning may decide to pull a Robin Williams. Take it for the team.
/hahaha
The EU got sucked into a reckless Obama foreign policy disaster.One after the other...
http://www.silverdoctors.com/the-wests-reckless-rush-towards-war-with-russia/
with france collapsing , was bretton woods and the euro project the same for france as the treaty of versaille was for germany?
mr. panos seems to think the 'euro' was a trap for germany. maybe so. but what about france? the uk? mr. panos. hilarious. seriously 2 years ago and STILL TIMELY AND CONTEMPORARY. HILARIOUS CLASSIC.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zvl9N9GdraQ
Time to get in shape. Be prepared.
Damn North Wind Blows Cold. Kills bacteria.
Suggesting the EU is responsible for 70 years of peace is lunacy of high order.
Fuck the EU?
When I see the 'want to date a sugar mom' banner ads showing up on ZH, I know I've arrived.
There never was any "Free Money", just reallocation from producers to the elites. The debt will be repaid in slavery, land aquisition, and bloodshed. Sadly, the men in the EU are all eunuchs. Not a set of balls amongst them.
Holy Cow! Is honesty at hand?? Wow!
The Public Be Suckered
http://patrick.net/forum/?p=1223928
No wonder NATO is screaming about imaginary Russian invasion. The things in the EU are gonna get very bad indeed very very soon. I hope Germany pulls the plug and really does what is says. I will need a tub of popcorn.
The history of Ukraine vis a vis Russia is available in the library.
The politics aside, it is funny to see each side accuse the other.
Of course Russia will support its compatriots. That is normal. There are no doubt secret military operations going on by the Russian Army.
On the other side, it is obvious secret operations are going on by ZATO. There are too many reports of foreign mercs and probably OESO (Other European Special Ops) roaming about, and also supplying military hardware.
It seems the worst error was Khrushchev giving Ukraine a semi-auto status within the old USSR. Putin is stuck with a decision made by a prior leader, in trying to support ethnic Russians w/o starting a general war while being poked by the financial powers behind ZATO.
Backdoor Barry is under tremendous pressure by his owners to make Russia the whipping boy: but those powers do not have the influence they once had. His owners would fare better had they a competent administration to use, but by putting a failed puppet into office, you also burden yourself with the incompetent sycophants who invariably work for these puppets.
I doubt even the transplant of Dick's Brain from Shrub to Bath House will work any magic.
***********
The Danger here is the confluence of two Blocs: ZATO vs All Others.
The events in Ukraine and the events in Syria are interrelated!
Talk about a powder keg.
The cunning plan to create an army against Syria backfired as the fundamentalists went off on their own and formed the Islamic State. Now they are amok, and Barry's owners need an assist from Syria. Any unilateral action against Syria will only bring in help from Iran and Russia. The Ukrainian crisis has already pitted Bath House against Putin.
I would hate to be Putin today. He is opposed by an utterly failed Puppet who in a few short years has screwed up Europe and the Middle East! The greatest danger to 'whirled peas' is the incompetency of the US Administration.
The original plan, to maintain the petrodollar and control of oil is now hopelessly fucked by Leisure Suit Barry.
Other ZHers think this is all by design- and they may be correct, but I submit the bulk of this morass we now find ourselves in is due to Incompetency, not Ingenuity.
********
The US needs to rid itself of the dual-passport holders and other assorted ilk who have hijacked the USG for their own territorial and financial gain. Until enough sheep are awakened by the sheepdogs, I don't see any immediate sunlight on the horizon. Ron Paul is correct, control of the government needs to be returned to The People and the special interests kicked out.
I am afraid at this point, you need to stock up, try to survive the coming storm, and be prepared to rebuild on the other side.
Keep Stackin!
Enjoyed that and I agree. The third generation of money, influence and power is invariably the worst. The sons of corruption die young and so do all their enterprises. It looks like "the Greatest Generation" raised some serious fuck-ups, so how could they have been so great?
I was as well doubting if Hussein O banana is incompetent, or his Tel Aviv handlers are telling him to do so.
Hallelujah!...
The only gripe I have with religon that I have is that they left the truth of the fire and brimstone. I liked it when I was generally acknowledged as a slip slider. I know that I can redeem myself. But sorry about stepping on the toes of those who are frightened by the thought of it.
I think this forum has finally dispensed with all the religious bullshit spouted left right and centre as bronze age fantasies designed to control the population through fear - I refer you to Revelations fire and brimstone. If you've been suckered into the ridiculous stories just consider it a lesson in critical thinking.
You guys are so easy. Wipe the foam from your mouth.
Enjoy it now.
God kills you in the end.
To state the obvious: If the ECB is not going to help the EU, then the ECB will be a big weight around the neck of the EU. The EU would be better off without the ECB and that means going back to individual country currencies, best run by their governments and NOT!!!! BIS tied central banks.
The ECB just declared war on every country in the EU and it would be best if the countries and their governments figure out how to defeat the hostile force. Maybe some NATO bunker busters targeting Sonnemannstrasse and Basel.
Cheers ... grabbing some popcorn and a beer to watch the fun.
to state the less obvious: as long as the ECB is here, there can't be currency wars among it's member countries
Or free market dynamics, or independence, or being threatened with cutting off their money supply unless they do exactly as the ECB says.
I'll take currency wars over blackmail any day.
have you ever been in the middle of a currency war? go tell the Greeks why they should renounce on the EUR. you'd be astonished by their answers
The Euro-zone has been engaged in a talkathon, with fear of an immediate collapse off the table the members of the Euro-zone much like their political counterparts in America just talk about solutions without any action.
For us in America news from across the pond dribbles out in small doses with almost daily media boost of promises that things are getting better. If this article is right and Germany is ready to put down its foot it will get interesting fast. For more on the situation up until now see the article below.
http://brucewilds.blogspot.com/2014/04/euro-zone-update.html
The minions will get jumpy if the Master Vampire won't let them feed.
When will the Germans have enough and go back to the Deutsche Mark?
After the Germans accept Turkey and Ukraine in the EU. Then tehy move out and leave the mess behind.
the day they feel that the EUR has too much inflation. which is currently somewhere between zero and 2%, counting for energy and food too. Seriouly, what could the Deutsche Mark offer, at this stage of the currency wars? Note that the CHF is not the only theoretically harder currency pegged to the EUR
did you get the message from ZH? there ain't inflation, here in the eurozone. the inflation of prices for education, housing, food, energy and daily life expenditures are happening elsewhere
Sell the house. Empty the 401k. Cash in the pension. Grab the gold and head for the hills.
There is a reason why we call him a psychotic wheel moving asshat here in Greece ;p
Now europe knows why!
And oh... by the way... recently holland said that the french lived beyond their means! Weird how familiar that sounds in greece ;pppp
French became greeks! And soon others will follow ;ppp
The problem is... if we all lived beyond our means... did someone made it happen?
Just a humble question ;ppp
Is that code for - we're going to QE infinity eternity?
Say one thing do another.
Europe is more Say one thing, do nothing.
Is this a game changer?
These two Germans say zee Same:
http://goldswitzerland.com/people-causing-crises-stand-to-gain-the-most-...
TOLD
YOU
SO
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-08-28/6-reasons-why-ecb-will-avoid-qe...
One thing is certain: They will all slip out, stage left, when the lights are stage right to their chalets in Gstaad and the rest is "his"tory and he's stickin' with it!
Unless of course they get uppity and rape somebody or fall off a parking garage.
They will probably join the BRIC's and get off the sinking ship.
Monetary misconstruction (the Euro) starting to meet reality. /#Ayn Rand
In my opinion Euro is a political (mis)construction at the first place. the monetary function comes at the second place.
it was done to control politically some countries. Yes and some banks make a good moeny on it.