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MH17 Was Struck By Multiple "High-Energy Objects From Outside The Aircraft", Crash Report Reveals
Over a month after the crash of flight MH 17 over east Ukraine, and with the confiscated Air Traffic Control voice recording still kept confidential by a western-led task force for reasons unknown, overnight the Dutch Safety Board released its preliminary report on the causes of the crash. As the AP reported, it agency "stopped short of saying the Boeing 777 was shot down by a missile, but its findings appear to point to that conclusion. It also did not say who might have been responsible." Actually, what the Dutch report did say is the following: MH17 was struck by multiple "high-energy objects from outside the aircraft," causing it to break up over eastern Ukraine, a preliminary report into the deadly aviation disaster concluded Tuesday.
From the report: "The damage observed in the forward section of the aircraft appears to indicate that the aircraft was penetrated by a large number of high-energy objects from outside the aircraft," the report said. "It is likely that this damage resulted in a loss of structural integrity of the aircraft, leading to an in-flight break up."
In essence what the board "reported" is what has been widely known by now: "The initial results of the investigation point toward an external cause of the MH17 crash," the board's chairman, Tjibbe Joustra, said in a statement. "More research will be necessary to determine the cause with greater precision. The Safety Board believes that additional evidence will become available for investigation in the period ahead.... Detailed examination of the structural damage is ongoing," the report said. "Forensic examination will be performed if the wreckage can be removed."
Not unexpectedly, by the time the Dutch conclude their report, nobody will care about MH 17 and the current Ukraine civil war foreplay will be long forgotten, having been either long since resolved or grown into something much bigger. To wit:
The board is leading the international investigation into the cause of the disaster. Its full report is expected within a year of the crash.
But while the report itself was largely neutral as expected for a preliminary report, the "experts" promptly jumped in to steer the discussion in the desired direction, starting with Australian Prime Minister Tony Abbott who said, "The findings are consistent with the government's statement that MH17 was shot down by a large surface-to-air missile."
Another that saw in the report what he wanted to see was Malaysian Prime Minister Najib Razak, who "welcomed the report, saying in a written statement that its key conclusion "leads to the strong suspicion that a surface-to-air missile brought MH17 down, but further investigative work is needed before we can be certain." Well at least he covered his bases by saying his conclusion is not really based on anything in the actual report.
Yet other, supposedly credible voices also took over "concluding" what was a very inconclusive report: next cited was an "aviation safety specialist" at Yates Consulting, Christopher Yates, who told the AP the report "is extremely consistent with damage from a missile for the simple reason there are penetration marks.
"It must have been moving at very high velocity to create the damage," he said. "It could only be a missile of the type that would reach the altitude that would have struck the aircraft, potentially a Buk missile. He said the report gave no indication whether the missile had been fired from the ground or from another aircraft, but it likely came from the ground as there were no military aircraft known to have been flying at the time. The missile could not have been shoulder-fired because it would not have reached the necessary altitude, he added.
So if it is so clear that a Rebel-fired missile destroyed the airplane, we should look forward to the undoctored ATC recordings finally beings released to the public? After all, they have been held in secret custody longer even than the MH 370 ATC recordings, another plane whose fate is still a mystery.
Finally, we are stunned that nobody has observed the obvious: "high-energy objects from outside the aircraft" like for example... bullets? As in a warplane-fired volley of high-powered bullets. Curiously, there is not even a single mention of the word "bullet" in the entire 34 page report: apparently even the mere possibility of such an "high-energy object" is too inconceivable to even consider?
Then again, one can see why this possibility was not even mentioned by the experts, the politicians and the pundits: for the simple reason that should bullets be noted as a culprit, that would immediately put all the blame on the Kiev government as only a Ukraine warplane could have shot down the Malaysian Boeing 777 over Ukraine airspace.
But we are confident this possibility will be extensively covered in the final Dutch Board report, some time in late 2015 or 2016, by which point we can only hope the ATC recording which may just reveal why the airplane was redirected, will be finally released...
* * *
Update: it appears that at least a part of the ATC transcript has been released and can be found in the report as follows:
This is the transcript immediately surrounding the crash and confirms the redirection from Dnipropetrovs’k air traffic control centre (Dnipro Radar) "due to traffic." From the report:
At the time of the occurrence flight MH17 was under control of Dnipropetrovs’k air traffic control centre (Dnipro Radar). Shortly after 13.20 hrs, both Ukraine and Russian Federation Radar lost contact with the aircraft. The last radio transmission made by the crew began at 13.19:56 hrs and ended at 13.19:59 hrs. Dnipropetrovs’k air traffic control centre made a radio transmission to flight MH17 which began at 13.20:00 hrs and ended at 13.20:05 hrs. The crew did not respond to this transmission or subsequent transmissions. No distress message was received from the aircraft at any point in time by ATC.
What is not disclosed is the actual transcript that notes the path redirection. Instead the Dutch report reveals the following in paraphrase:
According to the flight plan, flight MH17 would initially fly at Flight Level 330 (FL330)5 above Ukraine until the waypoint PEKIT, which is on the Flight Information Region (FIR) boundary between Kiev FIR (UKBV) and Dnipropetrovs’k FIR (UKDV). From waypoint PEKIT the flight plan indicates FL350 for the remaining part over Ukraine.
According to ATC data, at 12.53 hrs the aircraft was flying within the Dnipropetrovs’k FIR, Control Sector 2, at FL330, controlled by Dnipro Control. At that time, Dnipro Control asked whether MH17 was able to climb to FL350 in accordance with the flight plan of MH17 and also to clear a potential separation conflict with other traffic in the area, another Boeing 777 flying at FL330 and approaching from behind.
The crew replied they were unable to comply and requested to maintain at FL330. This was agreed by Dnipro Control. As an alternative to solve the separation conflict, the other traffic climbed to FL350. According to ATC data, at 13.00 hrs the crew of flight MH17 requested to divert the track 20 NM to the left, due to weather. This also was agreed by Dnipro Control, after which the crew requested whether FL340 was available. Dnipro control informed MH17 that FL340 was not available at that moment and instructed the flight to maintain FL330 for a while. At 13.07 hrs the flight was transferred to Dnipropetrovs’k CTA 4, also with call sign Dnipro Control.
The provided map, which however fails to note any military aircraft in the vicinity, something that the Russians had supposedly caught on their radar.
And previously from Russia:
Here is a screengrab of a Su-25 fighter jet detected close to MH17 before crash.
Considering the seriousness of this redirection and the pilot's alleged "inability" to comply, it would be far more useful if the Dutch Safety Board would release this part of the transcript as it certainly will reveal much more than the part of the conversation that is already well known.
And some more from the report, first on the fate of the Flight Recorders:
The flight recorders were not recovered from the wreckage site by investigators of the Annex 13 investigation team, but individuals unknown to the team took them from the site. On 21 July 2014, the recorders were handed over to a Malaysian official in Donetsk by representatives of the armed group controlling the area. The recorders were transported by train from Donetsk to Kharkiv in custody of a Malaysian official and accompanied by Dutch officials and then transported to Kiev also in custody of a Malaysian official and accompanied by Dutch and ICAO officials. In Kiev the recorders were handed over to the Dutch Safety Board on 22 July 2014.
Immediately after the handover to the Dutch Safety Board, the recorders were transported to the Air Accidents Investigation Branch’s laboratory at Farnborough, United Kingdom, accompanied by an international team of air safety investigators from Germany, Malaysia, the Netherlands, Ukraine, the United Kingdom, the United States of America and representatives of ICAO. At Farnborough a French investigator joined the team whereupon the work to download the data of both recorders was started. Later on an air safety investigator of the Interstate Aviation Committee also joined the team.
No evidence or indications of manipulation of the recorders were found.
The Cockpit Voice Recorder:
The housing of the CVR (figure 4) had been damaged and, although the model and serial numbers were unreadable on the data plate, the serial number 1366 - matching the one provided by Malaysia Airlines - was found stamped on the underside of the chassis. The external damage found on the CVR is consistent with impact damage, the internal memory module was intact. The recording capacity of this recorder is 30 minutes.
The full 30 minutes were successfully downloaded and contained valid data from the flight.
The replay of the CVR matched ATC communications with the aircraft (see ATC transcript). The recording also included crew communication which gave no indication that there was anything abnormal with the flight. The CVR audio recording ended abruptly. A replay of the CVR did not identify any aircraft aural warnings or alerts of system malfunctions. Detailed analysis is ongoing.
No aural warnings or alerts of aircraft system malfunctions were heard on the cockpit voice recording, which ended at 13.20:03 hrs. Crew communication gave no indication that there was anything abnormal with the flight.
Finally, data on the wreckage:
Wreckage distribution
Wreckage from flight MH17 was discovered spread over a large area near the towns of Rozsypne and Hrabove in eastern Ukraine. The main wreckage site was located 8.5 km on a bearing of 080° from the last known position of the aircraft in flight. On the accident site, a large amount of photographs was made, which allowed identification of certain aircraft parts, including preliminary assessments of localization and the nature of damage on the fuselage skin and the engines.
The aircraft wreckage, identified from the on-site photographs and satellite images, consisted of many large and small pieces distributed over an area of approximately 10 km by 5 km (figure 6). Fuselage pieces, cargo and baggage were scattered throughout the wreckage site. There were many additional unidentified pieces that are not shown in the figure. For easy reference the wreckage site has been divided into sections as shown in figure 6. These sections match with the aircraft sections shown in figure 7.
Some pictures of relevant parts of which the location was known, are discussed hereinafter.
Cockpit and forward area damage
Large parts from around the cockpit and forward section were found in the area closest to the last recorded FDR position (figure 6). Among these parts were portions of the cockpit, the forward cargo bay floor and the cockpit side wall. The remains of the cockpit were located at the southern end of Rozsypne, 2.3 km east from the last recorded FDR position.
Photographs from the some wreckage showed that a number of pieces contained multiple holes and indentations. An example of a piece of wreckage containing such damage was a piece of skin from below the left cockpit window (figure 8) found in the town of Petropavlivka.
Around 1.7 km north of the position where the cockpit window structure was found, was a section of the cockpit roof also showing holes indicating penetration from outside (figure 9).
Noting that the investigation team has not yet had the opportunity to recover these components for forensic examination, photographs from the wreckage indicated that the material around the holes was deformed in a manner consistent with being punctured by high-energy objects. The characteristics of the material deformation around the puncture holes appear to indicate that the objects originated from outside the fuselage.
Full report below (link to original):
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could very well be bullets
But the NY Times was so certain that it was downed by a Russian missile:
In an August 29 editorial calling for the US and NATO to adopt a retaliatory policy against Russia over its alleged “large and unacceptable escalation of ... aggression against Ukraine,” the New York Times asserts in passing that after rebels in eastern Ukraine “shot down a Malaysian jetliner with a Russian missile ... Russia’s involvement became more overt.”
What is most striking about this assertion is that it comes after roughly a month in which the Times, like the vast majority of the Western media, has gone virtually silent on the downing of Flight MH17, even as the most important evidence, including the plane’s black boxes, has become available to investigators.
How is it that the Times can assert as an indisputable fact that the anti-Kiev forces in eastern Ukraine and Russia itself are responsible for bringing the airplane down?
http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2014/08/30/mh17-a30.html
What will they blame on Putin now?
Picking up on the scent, the CIA attack dogs in the US and European media blamed the crash squarely on Russian President Vladimir Putin. The cover of the July 28 print edition of German news magazine Der Spiegel showed the images of MH17 victims surrounding bold red text reading “Stoppt Putin Jetzt!” (Stop Putin Now!). A July 26 editorial in the Economist declared Putin to be the author of MH17’s destruction, while the magazine ghoulishly superimposed Putin’s face over a spider web on its front cover, denouncing Putin’s “web of lies.”
Anyone comparing the media’s demonization of Putin with their treatment of Saddam Hussein or Muammar Gaddafi had to conclude that Washington was launching a campaign for regime change in Russia like those it carried out in Libya and Iraq—this time, recklessly pushing the United States towards war with a nuclear-armed power, Russia.
http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2014/08/18/ukmh-a18.html
Bullet holes versus those from shrapnel should be discernible as shrapnel leaves a "key hole" puncture as it is called in the shooting world.
Bullet holes would be round.
Lusitania, Battleship Maine, Gulf of Tonkin, etc. never revealed for years.
Only after the sheep forget about what galvanized them for war can the facts be revealed.
(Still waiting on Pearl Harbor & 9/11 admissions).
"High-Energy Objects"
Thanks Captain Obvious.
...Proof is in!
Russia shot down MH 17 with a Ukranian Jet.
There, fixed it for Ya.
I was just watching the news on TV and they had this senator say the only way to get rid of ISIS is to cut off its head and that head is in SYRIA.
LOL, was there ever any doubt what the true intentions of the USA are, they just keep coming back over and over again to Syria. Its like they have the biggest hard on but cant quite organsm till they get their filthy little hands on Syria.
Let there be now doubt that EU and USA are empires. The EU wants Ukraine for it valuable agricultural land and coal etc... The USA wants Syria for ersatz Israel and pipelines for USA companies.
There were no good guys in the cold war, certainly I think by now the USA has inflicted the highest civilian body counts around the world since WW2
War Inc is alive and well.
Nice to see Putin and China throw a monkey wrench into the world domination plans of the Western Bankers and MIC
I think it's more likely that the "head" of ISIS is in D.C. and Langley.
Cosmos. I saw that, too. Then they showed one interview, some random guy on the street saying we were attacked on 9/11. The anniversary of 9/11 is coming up. We don't want to be attacked again so we should attack ISIS. Who the hell cares what this guy on the street says? But this is the logic they want the American people to follow so we can go into Syria and take over that country, too.
Who cares if the rebels or the Ukes army LAUNCHED the missiles that took down MH17....the only LAUNCH every sheep cares about is the Apple new product LAUNCH.
Watch CNBC, its all about Apple, all the time for today.
For JustObserving, what do you expect from NYTimes, its ownership is infested with Jews whose sole objective is to spread propaganda for their own purposes.
By the way, did anyone notice that the colors of the Malaysian airline resembles that of the Russian Flag (RED, BLUE and WHITE)...I am sure the Ukes army mistaken it for some Russian plane and shot it down!
So those holes are clearly made by shrapnel from a missile which exploded in front of the aircraft.
But.. The missile could have been and air to air missile from a Ukraine SU-27 perhaps??
Do anti-air rockets usually explode before they hit? I thought they are meant to hit the object and then explode?
Do air-air and ground-air (Buk) rockets differ in that regard?
What kind of rockets do explode before they hit?
Many of them explode before impact, depending on a fragmentation warhead to make the kill.
Posted this a couple of other places in this thread but posting it again as it is extremely relevant;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ms3iDoiWqy4
Sent to the Foreign Editor of the NY Times -
Something for you to consider:
Clearly, photographic evidence proves the plane suffered a barrage of 30 mm cannon fire exclusively in the cockpit area; these penetrations are identical to the guns used on the Ukrainian SU-25 the Russians tracked tailing the flight. One photo even shows the grazed mark on the left wing of one of the projectiles.
If the Dutch told the truth, it would result in the overthrow of the government, and the overthrow of others in the EU. NATO would be totally discredited and there would to calls to execute the junta's leadership in Kiev as war criminals.
To use the quote of a former EU president - "When it's really bad, you have to lie."
Well, it's really bad, and the Dutch are lying.
And the western media are lying along with them.
Questions the Dutch - and the western MSM propaganda hacks - won't answer:
1) Why haven't the air traffic control tapes been released in full?
2) Why weren't the cockpit conversations from the "black box" released with this preliminary report?
3) Why was the plane diverted north to purposely fly over a combat zone? (The report notes a need for altitude change – not location change . . .)
4) Why have absolutely NO missile parts been found anywhere? (They don't vaporize . . .)
5) Why are there no other penetrations except into the cockpit / forward of the passenger compartment area? (Missiles throw shrapnel everywhere . . )
6) Why were the Russian's publicly released radar trackings ignored? (Not trustworthy? And the CIA/NSA, and the Ukrainian NAZIs are . . . ?)
7) Why hasn't the 30mm cannon fire theory been tested for credibility? (Afraid of the results proving it is true?)
8) Why has the Spanish air traffic controller on-duty who ordered the flight change been hidden away by the Ukrainian secret police? Why haven't the Dutch interviewed him? (In fact, is he even alive?)
9) Ever seen what happens when a surface to air missile hits its target? It explodes in a massive fireball (check any YouTube video to see it for yourself). Why has not one single witness reported seeing the fireball if this is a missile attack? (Uh, because it isn't a missile attack . . ?)
10) Why have no smoke trails ever been reported - smoke trails that every missile leaves as a track of its ascent towards its target? (Again, because there never was a missile fired . . )
11) Why has the US - which had a spy satellite directly over the incident (gee, what a coincidence . . .) - refused to release the photos of the incident?
There are more questions, and the EU/US/NATO powers are terrified to face them. They know that if the truth of the plane being shot down by the Ukrainian SU-25 gets out - the civic revulsion will turn the current political situation in these countries upside down. Leaders, proven to be liars and puppets of the US, will hang.
Before you swallow any more western lies, make your leaders answer these questions first.
Then ask them why they won't.
-30-
For a detailed explanation including photos, please visit:
www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-09-09/mh17-was-struck-multiple-high-energy-objects-outside-aircraft-crash-report-reveals
Emailed to The Guardian's journalist covering the release of the report today.
All very good points, and therefore no one will answer you.
Why do you people keep watching TV and supporting it? Does your boss make you watch?
It was a Russian-made airplane and Russian-made bullets.
Case CLOSED! Putin must pay!
/sarc
and he must pay with the world's reserve currency, the USD
and with vast supply of cheap natural gas
and 535 or so top-flight Russian hookers
The bullet holes in the fuselage in the pictures taken by the first investigators on the scene were very obvious. Both the entry and exit points on BOTH sides of the cockpit. This is obviously a "Trial balloon" to see if the story will be received uncritically. In the next phase, expect them to say that the bullet holes were made after the wreckage had already fallen to earth by those "Crazy rebels". Unfotunately, that doesn't work either because the holes are clearly from a 30MM cannon typically found only in jet fighters.
And, yes, why have the VCR recordings still not been released? In fact, why did the Ukranian State Security aparatus see fit to impound such recordings immediately after the incident?
This is not passing the "Smell test" at all but I suppose they had to try something. Evil bastards...But the Dutch are fairly decent people and very socially liberal. The truth will come out I believe. WIth some assistance from Malaysia and Russia perhaps.
I think those holes were from Skittle impacts when it flew through the rainbow.
pods
Or possibly from Unicorn horns?
That would have to be an organized squadron of Unicorns!
I try not to poke fun at these types of things but the "fear" knob has been turned to 11. Of course that coincides with our "economy" hitting another brick wall. Always seems that the world is falling apart right when the FRN system runs out of juice. Hmmm.
One can only handle so much.
pods
Unicorns farting raibbows with skittles. Fixed for you. Everything that comes frome a hole goes back to one.
OMG unicorn terrorists!
Interesting that in the tower transcript above, the plane is mentioned as "target".
"The truth will come out I believe."
Not from Farnborough, it won't! I was offered a civvie job there just before I quit the RAF. You would not believe the amount of secrecy crap they make you read and sign before they'll even describe the job in any detail.
In hindsight, I should have taken the job. Might have some idea of what's actually going on, if I was at least kinda in the loop. Though I doubt they tell even those guys anything of substance. I wouldn't be surprised if that tosser Dave Cameron doesn't really know the real agenda.
I'm sure that we can trust the British to conduct a 100% fair and impartial decoding of the "Black boxes" on behalf of their American "Partners"......
Yeah right.......
The Dutch are OK though and I don't think that even the Dutch Government can close all the mouths. NDA's are not so important ouitside the Anglo-US Empire.
PS. That "Tosser" Dave Cameron and his horse of a wife doesn't have a clue. Like Obumboy, he never actually DID anything except "Govern"?
Where's the Romanian Spaniard hybrid SpainBuca when you need him? Eating chocolate in DC?
Come in Sierra Bravo, over...
Same mindset in their Military Hospitals. Before I was able to do along-term Locum in Haslar Hospital, Gosport, I had to sign the Official Secrets Act, and had a very thorough security vetting (political affiliations of Grandparents even!). Same situation if you want to work in the Prison Service!
Makes you think . . . .
Cosmos > Completely agree the Banking elite and Club of Isles crowd really (need) want Syria to fall.
1. The CFR pounded Jack Lew on CSPAN on Syria sanctions. Early this year.
2. If you read between the line a lot of ISIS news is about getting Syria "taken care of". Must be more than the pipeline they are after.
Note: UK has largest civilian body count, US is a close second. Both work together.
"Let there be now doubt that EU and USA are empires."
I never had any.
Bumper sticker: Imperialism - It really pisses people off!
(background of a mushroom cloud works well here. William B. can you help?)
@COSMOS
The senator you are referring to was a Democrat. There is bipartisan support right now for war. You know what that means right?
The Neocons and the Jooos and other boogey woogey men are secretly concocting war plans. There is nothing Obama or the Dems can do because when war happens it's not there fault at all. We know this because that is what they tell us.
BTW- The US was the good guy during the Cold War. I'm not saying that Communists are evil people. The Soviets were not evil, but they did adhere to unsustainable and unworkable economic ideologies, which led to starvation and hardships for millions of people.
It's always a wonder to me how capitalists like you, with your computer, and your internet connection, and what not, end up being the biggest Commy sympathizers.
Hey, reset! RE: Cosmos.
Did you mean to say that the leveling of the playing field for people around the world with access to a "computer, and your (their) internet connection" really PISSES YOU OFF, because official state propaganda can now be questioned instantly rather than 20 years hence. But of course, how much easier it is to dismiss and diminish a contrary point of view by the tried-and-true REDSCARE TACTICS and personal ad hominem attacks.
You (and your ilk) are so predictable! Bugger yourself off Langley shill.
Holy shit!!!!!!! Only "2 weeks and 4 days" on ZH. My god, the empire's really getting desperate now. They're having to hire 18 year-olds in Tel Aviv, for chrissake!!!!!!!!!!!
The biggest problem is not the global psychopaths running this world into the ground, but the wall of ignorant masses who stand in front protecting them
Maybe the plane was hit with Gatorade bottles
Kool-aid is more likely??
They were also behind 9-11, Russia seems to be the only scapegoat in town. I wish Vlad would drop the first Nuke on my home. I am ready to move on from this God foresaken world. It is truly Hell on Earth as we speak.
http://www.anderweltonline.com/wissenschaft-und-technik/luftfahrt-2014/s...
Flash - reports from a high government source confirm that Victoria Nuland qualified on the SU 25 at Nellis AFB in 2010. "That bitch was awesome" her instructor observed. He added "And what a mouth on that broad. Whew!"
I think they gave away the game by using the plural "objects" in their press release. Does anyone think multiple missiles hit the aircraft? It is sickening to watch the press and western gov'ts control the narrative surrounding this tragedy.
"multiple" holes are inconclusive.
As I understand it, the BUK missile downs an aircraft, not by colliding with it, but by exploding in close proximity with "shrapnel".
Maybe I am giving too much credit to ballistics experts, but I think experts ought to be able to tell what made the holes in MH17.
Nevertheless, the available evidence presented, eyewitness reports, and the withheld evidence (control tower tapes) ALL indicate a coverup by the US and Kiev government.
After all the demonizing and accusations without proof made by top US politicians and their NATO underlings,
(e.g. Hillary equates Hitler with Putin, Kerry certain Russia to blame, Obama pledges Russia will pay.)
it seems clear the US government is doing everything in its power to avoid humiliation and to proceed with its plans for expansion and domination.
Slow moving airliner is no match for weapons homing systems. So, yea it could have been multiple.
High Energy Objects? What kind of energy?
Chemical? Thermal? Electrical? Magnetic? Potential? Electromagnetic? Piezo-electric? Radioactive?
Oh. Ummmmm, kinetic?
Indeed I was struck by that wording too. You figure it's easy enough to say "missile" and "bullets" if that were all it was. Any good materials engineer should be able to give me a good rundown of the traces left behind. I'm also assuming that various mixes of combustibles/fuel would be of a particular appelation, i.e. Russian ammo mix would be different than French, UK, etc.
One day till Truther Christmas.
Don't forget the Titanic. Another JPM job.
Good one!
It wasn't really the Titanic they sank but the Olympic:
http://letsrollforums.com/possible-titanic-vs-olympic-t29196.html?s=f835...
Pearl Harbor was exposed years ago
They are round. We've all seen the photos. Panels with round holes from both sides.
Remember when you were a todler, that board with different shaped holes to push matching-shaped blocks through?
Maybe those Dutch engineers weren't allowed to play with those as kids and now they're "hole-shape challenged"!
Seriously though, I bet there are some angry upset engineers over there. It must suck, having high stakes bold-faced lies put in your mouth like that.
All of Europe is being pushed toward an "Enough is an Enough" moment.
In other news...
TWA Flight 800 Was Shot Down: Anderson Cooper confirmshttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h281mWd3qLo
Being a gay Jew would certainly put him in the know.
It was bullet holes as you can clearly see from the image in this article;
http://www.globalresearch.ca/support-mh17-truth-osce-monitors-identify-s...
You can't shoot bullets at a plane flying at 30,00 feet! It was the Ukrainian jets that shot it down obviously
What shape is the shrapnel within a BUK?
I imagine that it's little jaggy bits, like in some grenades ... but, I don't know.
If it is spherical shrapnel, could its profile be mistaken for bullet holes?
Some folks here seem to be missing the point that there is a big difference between machine gun "bullets" and "cannon shells." Once you step up from machine guns to cannon, the shells explode in the target.
Everyone keeps saying Su-25, but I'm not sure it can fly high enough.
Flying high enough. It can with adjustments.
Yes it can mate for short periods of time like for around 15 minutes. The Pilot has an Oxygen supply and when that runs out they have to descend
Aircraft can get well above their "Operational ceiling" when necessary, especially military aircraft if not fully loaded with fuel and providing they don't get into "Coffin corner" where the aircraft will either stall or overspeed. The oxygen supply would limit the period that a military aircraft of this type could get up to thoses altitudes. It might not even have been an SU-25 although the Russians, and the (Now deceased) Spanish ATC Officer, would probably not have been so specific unless they were sure.
.
Generally speaking, you are correct. There are two limiting factors. One, it does not have a pressurized cabin, so operating at 10km altitude, except for very briefly, would require the pilot to have supplemental oxygen and warm clothing. Two, while the engines can take the plane above 10km, at such altitudes they do not perform well and a Boeing 777 could outrun it.
Nevertheless, the Saker presented a hypothesis showing that the combination of an Su-25 armed with the R-60 air-to-air missile could plausibly attack and bring down MH17.
http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.com/2014/08/just-the-baseless-hypothesis-o...
On the other hand, the Saker also posted links to a rather detailed analysis which takes into account the multiple vectors involved in shooting down MH17 using the Buk surface-to-air missile. This includes the altitude/velocity/heading of MH17, the range and velocity of the Buk missile, and the capabilities of the radar on a sole Buk launcher compared to the capabilities of the radar of the complete multi-vehicle Buk air defense system.
This analysis establishes a ground footprint from within which the missile would have to have been launched. It reaches the conclusion that it is unlikely that a single separatist-controlled launcher could have shot down MH17, but a multi-vehicle launch system, as operated by the Ukrainian military, could have easily shot it down from territory controlled by Kiev. This launch footprint also coincides with the satellite imagery from the Russian Defense Ministry presentation showing the Ukrainians moving a multi-vehicle Buk system into the area prior to the shootdown.
http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.ca/2014/08/detailed-expert-analysis-of-mh1...
There was an article someone linked weeks ago about how a MiG-29 would look the same as an SU-25 on radar, and would have the speed and altitude to engage a Boeing 777.
I think the important point in this analysis - is that a missile strike, via air to air, or surface to air, could have be accomplished beyond visual range. Cannon fire would necessarily be within visual range, hence the pilot would know that he was shooting down a commercial airliner.
That would change the debate radically.
To determine whether the airliner was brought down by guns or a missile would require someone who has experience with identifying the typical shrapnel patterns from various Russian-built missiles look like when compared to cannon fire.
Regarding the SU-25 - from what I know about that aircraft's speed and altitude limitations (it is a ground attack aircraft, after all) It seems like it would be one hell of a stunt to pull this event off. Now with a real fighter like an Su-27 or MiG-29 - downing an airliner would be a turkey shoot.
That's why Air Traffic Control instructed MH17 to descend to a lower altitude.
As someone who's been to General Dynamics OTS Marion Illinois facilty which manufacturers and test fires 20, 25 and 30 mm rounds (including air to air 20 mm PGU and FAP rounds), the entry holes in 1/8" aluminum skin are certainly round. The exit holes tend to be ovate and approximately 40-50 mm for the SAPHEI PGU rounds while the Tungsten FAP rounds fragment and produce several 5-10 mm exits holes.
The SU-25 has a liisted ceiling of 25,000 feet due to the unpressurized nature of the cabin.
The plane can go much higher, but since the cabin is unpressurized, the pilot would suffer from oxygen starvation and freezing temps after about 10-12 minutes.
OK - so what do you think about the holes in the skins?
Also, the aircraft's absoutel ceiling is only part of the equation - for instance, I'd love to know what the Su-25's rate of climb is above 25k'.
Look at the map where alle the airplane pieces fell down. The closest parts to the "incident point zero" is the cockpit sections. Those are not very aerodynamic when it comes off. So it seems that something popped the cockpit and the rest of the plane continued uncontrolled further and probably breaking apart somewhat in the process.
From the pictures I have seen there isnt really much damage to the other pieces of fuselage (except being torn apart). The cockpit section however is completely riddled with holes. Some of them are obvious bullet holes, perfectly circular. If this was explosive cannonrounds it is likely shredded by shrapned coming back out after detonation.
It would also explain why there wasnt any distress call. Dead pilots dont make calls.
Wouldn't it be easier to make and load missile heads with ball bearings, or something similar? If you loaded a weapon with jagged pieces and then set off an explosion behind it, wouldn't the jagged pieces behave eratically, maybe stick together as a lump, have way too much drag, flutter like leaves?
No, because you give the pilots time to sound a warning before (if spotted) and after the missile detonates. In this incident they wiped out the pilots and the cockpit instantly. No mayday, no obvious evidence that it WASNT a BUK missile. I believe it was intended to seem like a missile strike from the get-go. That was the cover-story to set the blame on Russia and the rebels.
Watch this video, only just over a minute of your time:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ms3iDoiWqy4
And then there's this guy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4jW3pPnxdo
IDK.
Funny how this picture isn't anywhere. Although most of the really round holes are rivet holes no?
Also funny how not one of the MSM sites is allowing comments on their "MH17 report" story...
H/T TRPabove.
http://www.anderweltonline.com/fileadmin/user_upload/PDF/Cockpit-MH017.pdf
Edit: I wonder why no mention of how the passengers/crew died in the report? (apart from the obvious falling from 30,000ft) They do have bodies from the crash site so forensics could be performed i.e were there any traces of gunpowder on the bodies? If tracers or explosive anti-tank rounds were fired, then perhaps something could be found?
I remember there were also reports of partially decomposed bodies and bodies that didn't go splat when they hit the tarmac.
Good arguments with the corpses!
This report stinks to high heaven.
Thanks for this link.
Everyone should take a look at the photo in the PDF ( http://www.anderweltonline.com/fileadmin/user_upload/PDF/Cockpit-MH017.pdf )
I see two layers (can be seen very well on the upper left).
The inner layer has holes that are bent inside, while the outer coating is bent to the outside.
It must be extremely easy for experts with all the info about the plane's wreckage parts to identify the kind of the projectiles and the path of penetration. Even without a chemical analysis experts must be able to narrow down the weapon system. While the chemistry should be the confirmation.
That the report stays silent about the impacts, although the "investigators" have such excellent data and evidences, is like the hole in a shot person was ignored and it was stated in the report "somehow he died by external force but we have no clue how".
Shrapnel leaves a hole in a shape correlated to the fragment that passed through.
Since a picture is worth a thousand words, see PICTURE/FIGURE 13 below -
http://appliedmechanics.asmedigitalcollection.asme.org/Mobile/article.as...
So apparently based on a bunch of holes in one suspiciously conveniently located 3 x 3 section of fuselage? Holes that were not there when the plane took off, they concluded objects pierced the skin and the plane fell apart? Outstanding, Sherlock!
You've got to be f'king kidding me. Even the chimps at CNN had that figured that out based on the pictures posted on the internet.
How many freaking aerodynamic and airframe structural engineers did it take to make that exact same observation after an entire MONTH?? Don't those bastards have the internet or CNN?
Screw the fake investigation. I'm going with the leaked phone conversation that some rogue oligarch had the aircraft shot with a surface-to-air missile, and then had the chase plane (not a damn MiG-25 BTW) clean up the mess with it's guns and/or an air-to-air missiles. All that doesn't explain the additional punctures from inside the skin going out, so you can't rule out the SBU or Mossad placing a bomb in the EE bay right under the pilot's seats to kill power to the black boxes first and start the whole sequence of events.
CIA contractor Polish-piloted Uke-marked MiG-29s shadowing MH-17 and the massive US military signals and jamming presence for the fake NATO exercise. Nobody is going to cough up a legit tape on the Uke side. Damn near everyone except Russia and the separatists were shooting at that damn airliner - from the ground and from the the air. This is anothe botched, zero-credibility false flag. It's just like the USS Liberty operation: "God damn it, make sure that ship goes down and nobody survives!"
Bullet holes versus those from shrapnel should be discernible as shrapnel leaves a "key hole" puncture as it is called in the shooting world.
Bullet holes would be round.
Bullet holes would be round......
unless striking at an angle, or if being fired at a long distance and the projectile starts to tumble, in which cases they would be elogated or oval,
but in any case, the Uke aircraft mostly carry 30mm auto cannon. the holes would be much more substantial than shown. as in golf ball plus size.
of course a missle strike from the air would look pretty much the same as one fired from the ground
and doesn't exclude Uke intentionally shadowing to draw ground fire
A golf ball is 40mm. I just measured the one on my desk.
Not all 30mm cannon fire is high explosive. Some are designed only to fragment upon impact.
See http://www.gd-ots.com/MCA_20x102FAP.html
This is how wars are started.
Those holes are not from "bullets", they're from a fragmenting anti aircraft missile warhead or, remote possibility, a proximity fused antiaircraft cannon shell. The latter is unlikely because I don't believe anyone utilizes proximity fused cannon shells as a general aviation loadout, and the SU 25 is a ground attack aircraft. If the aircraft was struck with 30 mm cannon fire the look would be way different, and the crew would probably have more time to radio "we're being shot at".
If you want to see what fragments impinging on a softer metal look like take a rifle (.223 or higher caliber) with jacketed bullets and shoot a plate of hard (like 400+ Brinell) steel with a couple of empty soda/beer cans close to each side of it. Shoot the cans, shoot softer steel, get some eyeball time on this shit.
You'll have fun to boot :-)
Must-watch video pointing to cannon-fire, not missile:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ms3iDoiWqy4
20, 25 and 30 mm cannon shells are not jacketed in copper with a lead core like a M193 round for the M4/M16.
The projectiles are made from steel or tungsten and may or may not have a high explosive charge inside.
Newly minted experts...
Did anyone doubt that the report would be a nebulous whitewash?
..... well it's no 911 Ommission report..... but meh...
Shot down from the grassy knoll.
Or Edward Snowden with 12,000 gauge shotgun from window of Tolstoy book suppository.
...... Really ....... No shit Sherlock ..... comes to mind
And I was thinking the whole time that it just ran out of gas... DOH
Its best that this clowns don't start looking at Car crashes -> "we took a look and found out that the reason three people died was the sudden stopping of two movable cars".
The correct terminology for the cause of death would be 'sudden deceleration trauma'; also see 'flat as a pancake' and 'FUBAR'.
Took them that long to find a BS explanation to give to the Sheeples
Listen. Even I could have told you that!
Now. Tell us why the fuckers diverted their flight plan?
Well, that part should be a bit obvious by now.
And, while you're at it, give us the control tower tapes. Why is that taking so long? Usually black box investigation is releaseed a day or two later. I've never seen a black box up close but bet I could get it downloaded in a day or two. And, I'm by no means computer fancy but still bet I could do it. Give me the black boxes.
The road to war is paved with lies.
Not sure who said that, but there are enough lies being told these days to start a bunch of wars.
And we do have war, conflict, misery in abundance.
As my avatar said.
Truth is the first casualty of war.
What if this one got right?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4W85OnL4xtY
and part two
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3boC2D-iviI
cover the mh 17 too
The guy they go to who is teaching/preaching is a Kiwi called Barry Smith. Barry is dead now and is an ex School teacher. He was a good guy but I don't know if I'd be basing any of my doctrines or beliefs on what he taught. He was probably in the ball park sometimes and way off other times. He did teach some weird stuff.
I don't know who wrote the video but I was finding it hard to follow whether he was saying Putin was a sheep in wolfs clothing or the guy who is standing up to the NWO. Maybe it was me but it seemed difficult to follow what they were trying to say. Although there is some good info in it about Putin not trusting the Britsh for food or water while visiting and the weapons that Syria has received from Russia etc
Fuckin' Israel!
Look like someone just blew 150K on a college degree.
Israel is bad.....here's your diploma.
"as only a Ukraine warplane could have shot down the Malaysian Boeing 777 over Ukraine airspace."
Are there somekind of supershields in the sky that would not allow for Putin regime to cross into Ukraine airspace - as it was done many times before?
Russian jets make repeated crossings into Ukraine airspacehttp://news.yahoo.com/russian-jets-cross-ukraine-airspace-184649384--pol...
viedokazu_draazejs earns another 4 Gryvnia for spewing insanitation:
Evidence?
Come on, viedokazu_draazejs, it's time for you to grow up.
Ahhh my dear always hungry personal troll, who waits for me as little helpless puppy. Are you hungry little feller? Want to play? Now, go out side and play there... Shoo shoo. Awww now look what you have left here - right in the middle. Bad bad puppy. But surley noone can be really angry at you :)
so cute when you try to troll but is so helpless. Any way dont go away, stick to your plan and one day you will become a internet troll you always wanted to be!
Keep up!
I've come to the conclusion that you can't possibly be a PAID troll
Why not? Governments are not known to hire for competency.
You're slipping, viedoklaizi_dirsa. Your comment didn't criticize Russia, so you missed out on another 4 Gryvnia.
Don't forget to make a comparison to Hitler to earn a bonus lump of coal. You might need it to keep warm this winter.
Listen. viedoazu is "SBU". and is also goluboj.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Security_Service_of_Ukraine
They must be scraping the bottom of the barrel, even with their admittedly low standards.
I think if it were the Ruskies we would have heard the innocent control tower recordings, rather than have had them stolen by the Kiev gov.
Russian planes enter Ukraine airspace, shoot down a civilian airliner, and return to Russia? And the US fails to capture this in real time?
I know you are a troll, but try to use your brain.
Equally, Polish or American jets could have been in Ukrainian airspace.
its disgusting that ZH publishes theories like this.
Cannons do not fire "bullets". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_Su-27
Bullets? Rounds? Trifling. Semantics.
Who said it was an SU-27? What kind of armaments could be mounted on the Ukrainian jet?
Fascism 101
Control the information. Bastards!
Welcome to the resistance.....you've just been drafted.
We'll call you.
Ha! No problem. I'd love to kill some NAZI's.But I'm betting you're the kinda guy who always draws the long straw right?
some time in late 2015 or 2016, by which point we can only hope the ATC recording which may just reveal why the airplane was redirected, will be finally released
Actually, the transcript is in the report, if you read it- page 15 of 34. I will save you the time and tell you there's a whole lotta nuthin' there.
Anyone can type up a transcript. Tapes, please.
The problem for the regime in Vichy DC is that the Russians, like the Americans, have been monitoring radio communications in the area since the start of the conflict.
The Russians have recordings of the communications between MH17 and air traffic control, as well as detailed satellite and radar imagery, and the Vichy DC regime knows it. That's why the "investigation" consists of delay tactics and nebulous reports which, while appearing verbose, say nothing conclusive.
The "black box" was found by anti-Junta militia and it had a download port. So, the Russians should have their own copy of that as well.
If the west ever concedes MH17 was brought down by 'bullet' fire I expect the western MSM to claim the rebels hijacked a small 150 MPH piston engine Cessna and intercepted MH17 at 30,000 feet going 500 MPH while a rebel hung out the window and sprayed the pilots with his Uzi.
/sarc
"The plane was struck and penetrated by a flock of ISIS-trained high-energy terrorist geese. On Viagra. We have high confidence in this assessment."
-- John "horse-faced Herman Munster" Kerry, US Secretariat of State
Yep, it was the center fuel tank spontaneously combusting!
If it was the missile they claimed, they would have said near by explosion and missile fragments They are trying to say anything but the truth and leave as much room for story telling as possible without telling an outright lie. It was cannon fire from a jet.
I tend to agree. Plausible deniability is what the Dutch seek here. They can't infer the Emperor is without cloths regarding MH17 without creating problems for themselves so they are choosing their words very carefully.
They've already determined it was 30mm cannon rounds that entered one side and exited the other wall of the aircraft. No need for the generic "high energy objects" jargon, but the dutch dont want to be sanctioned by obozo for giving an incriminating report, so..
They're basically saying it was shot down by bullets, without actually saying those exact words.
Can bullets be classified as "high-energy objects from outside the aircraft,"? Call me a conspiricy theorist, but did they mention the Ukrainian aircraft shadowing the plane? Maybe I just ask to many questions and don't trust the government. Does that make me a paranoid terrorist?
To the Pentagon, a "directional impact device" is their name for a simple hammer, but get to charge $1000 for what a subcontractor pays at Ace.
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0ByibNV3SiUoobnpCVDduaHVORHM/edit?pli=1
Read the detailed link if you have the time.
The preliminary report does appear to show it was a BUK fired from the starboard side of the incoming MH17. (hence cockpit damage). The difficult part for the Ukrainian government/USA/EU is who was manning the BUK system.
Spoiler alert, it wasn't the rebels.
Extra Spoiler Alert. The pictures clearly show the plane's fuselage was hit by "rounds" from an aircraft 's 'cannon'. Only Ukrainian aircraft in vicinity. Ergo Ukrainian shoot down.
It *could* have been shot up on the ground with a truck mounted weapon.
Better call in CSI Las Vegas for the answers!
It *could* have been spacemen from Uranus.
Better call in Occam's razor.
The pictures I have seen shows damage to the cockpit on the port side. The biggie is that even if they prove that a surface to air missile hit MH17 - they still have to explain why there were entry and exit holes in the cockpit on the same side of the aircraft.
If a BUK was involved, I agree they also have to prove who manned it - but the fact that you can observe entry AND exit holes on the same side of the aircraft suggests that there was another factor in play as well - attacking MH17 from both sides. So either more than one missile - or possibly a combination with cannon-fire.
Which means either rebels not acting alone - aka together with jets from Russia
OR
Ukraine acting alone or with "friends" or "friends" acting unilaterally on behalf of Ukraine.
Judging from confiscated ATC recordings plus the most vulgar and dillitant western propaganda campaign seen in recent history plus no released western hi-res sat-images in opposition to an adult and sober Russian data presentation very early in the series of events along with calls for international investigation and cease-fire that was broken by Uki forces firing on cars to be used by the Malaysian investigators - my personal conclusion is pretty clear. They are not going to be able to credibly pin this one on Putin.
The only option left is to delay, silence and distract as damage control. The lack of detailed information in the this report (after almost 2 months) just serves as another piece of confirmation.
I'll tell you one thing for certain and that is every leader in every EU country now knows the score and they know that "we" know they know it (if that makes sense). They all have a choice at this point to either support the murder of innocent humans to further the goal of the US to protect the petrodollar or stop. I don't think up until now it was as stark a choice as they now have.
The gov'ts had better choose wisely because it is becoming clearer by the day what is going on. I don't think they can unring this bell, the information is becoming too widely disseminated. If the gov'ts of the EU ever hope to maintain their power and control then they have to separate themselves from the insane US gov't. This is another 911 that happened in their part of the world and to ignore it will delay but not stop the ultimate outcome, which will be the repudiation of every gov't that supported this narrative of a missile shootdown in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
Very well said sir!. I wholeheartedly agree - also on the 911 bit. The buck stops sooner rather than later. We saw the EU election results. People are no longer eating the BS raw, and if common sense does not return to the picture in nearer future, I think we know well enough judging from history that European complacency can turn on a dime into a shitload of trouble.
PS: I wish my junkers would take the time to actually say what they disagree with in above post.
We may have to hope the Scots throw in a big monkey wrench!
If the FINDINGS complemented the AGENDA of the MSM/NEOCON then the Spanish Air Traffic Controllers Testimony/ Recordings would be Front Page News on every magazine every hour of every day. ALAS IT DOESN'T.
Could the so-called rebels have hit the plane with multiple high energy objects with any of their artillery?
If not, then those "objects" could only come from one other source.
high energy stupidity. In Slovakia I have checked the news and it is all about russians did it proof..but I was surprised that even on stupid news portals the audience in comments wasn't tricked and majority knew it is BS
Here in Harperistan, the CBC is allowing comments, and ALL of the "most liked" comments are saying Ukraine is responsible, despite the massive amount of propaganda spinning this report as proof that "Putin is responsible".
Let's kick their ass!
Little Nell... Little Nell...
But just who was it that expelled those "high-energy objects from outside the aircraft" ?....
Putin and Lavrov will be having field day with this one!!!!!!!!
Needless to say the U.S. and NATO is digging itself a deeper hole to climb out of for the next stunt they intend to use, erhhhh.... Like Kiev calling for multiple ceasefire(s) that aren't ceasefire(s)!!!!
BS Tyler, Russia is on the same investigative team and has had access to all information... thank you, please try again
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-29119024
Key findings of report
You are a paid Shill or .
Likely..................your statement starts with an opinion...WTFisThat?
The American Government Lies. Bankers control the strings on the Governments World Wide.
Here is an Opinion that I belive is close to the Truth.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Horsemen_(film)
It states the regannomics thought that if the rich (which has recieved most of the MONEY) they will spend and the cash will filter down HOWEVER......the cash when it has filtered down has lost most of it's buying power.
Russian experts you say part of the investigation???...
pts please do show!
Including the eyewitness air traffic controllers and U.S. satellite images that can't be shown because they are classified even though a month later we "allegedly" are allowed to see "authentic" image(s) of Russian equipment at the border with Ukraine??? Are these images from different U.S. satellites and how would one set be classified and the other "unclass"????
One would think if you're prepared to start a war with a nuclear superpower you better have some iron clad evidence for the Ameircan public to digest -otherwise you might get yourself into some "hot water" one would think?
Just like the NIST 2 years after it was left out of the official report telling us (after the fact) that releasing the data modeling points from the WT7 analysis would somehow endanger our safety???!!!
Admit it! You're a paid Kike troll!!!!
If these assholes try to fight Russia, It would be funny if thousands invade the white mosque and someone ended up "swinging."