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The Scotland Referendum: Who Voted How And Why?
The following post-referendum poll from Lord Ashcroft does a good summary of who voted how and why. However, the most telling distinction is the following:
- Voters aged 16-17: YES: 71%; NO: 29%
- Voters aged 65+: YES: 27%; NO: 73%
How will last night's vote look like in 5, 10 or 15 years when today's 17 year olds are Scotland's prime demographic?
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inb4 17 y.os realise indepedence is less about one-uppance than securing economic futures and not vote indepdence...unless they are unemployed through the next 15 years
The Scotland youth are learning the established way:
Don't challenge the corrupted system perpetrated by theirs “Greatest Misinformed Generation".
So in Scottland grandparents are willing to eat their young -- just like here in the US.
Glad to know we are not alone.
In the US.....we're putting our younglings in slavery.
Thank goodness they're not smart enough to realize it.
You! Yes, You! Stand still wit' it!
Ebola will fix this.
Hopefully. STill, I have no doubt this vote was rigged like none in history aside from the 2012 US presidential election.
I suspect you will find the woman's vote derailed independence. Women always vote for what they are told is "safety". Whatever the fuck that means. It's one of those words that means a lot to women, not so much to men. Manly men, anyway.
Just like women in the US voted for "safety" after 9/11. Even if that means gutting the constitution and ushering in the police state.
Not a smart move to enfranchise women. Sealed the fate of the western world. Can't imagine the muslim world will make the same mistake. Oh, wait, Indonesis already has. The world's most populous muslim nation.
As painful are the truths you have just espoused are, they are truths none the less. Men and women are not equals, we are equal but different. Here in 'meriKa women got the right to vote without the major concession men have to give up.....The Draft [ie conscription]. Not saying women should not have the right to vote, hell I think people should have to take a 100 question test before being allowed to vote. And I mean a test that most here at ZH would FAIL today, it is one of the ways we could [possibly] ensure we have good govt, instead of this shitshow we are currently living through.
Sealed the fate of the Western World indeed. They operate with legal and financial impunity and have become a destructive force in business. Productivity has taken the hit once again.
As usual this is all fucked up. Isn't everything nowadays?
While I agree with most of what you say S Dog, I disgaree with the enfranchising portion of your comment. Trust me, I am no "female studies" type moron either.
Everyone has a viewpoint, an opinion and a "lens" from which they arrive at their conclusions. Ideally, the husband and wife would sit down and discuss this rationally and each would weigh the opinions of the other until some type of concensus was reached. This, naturally, requires maturity, respect and the ability to think and share in a constructive way. Most of these attributes are no longer easily found and therefore we have ...... absolute horse shit.
Lastly, the fact that women are more passive, pliable, and malleable is no secret to anyone. I think any clear-thinking woman will openly admit it. The stupid ones are still hell bent of "equality" and think their counterproductive actions are somehow good because they jab men. It is shallow and very self-destructive.
Question: Do you think the young people voted for independence because they are just young or do you think the milleniam and Z generations will continually vote this way as a lifetime trend?
As a Millenial myself, I see myself always voting for Liberty forever. Sometimes I can't help but see the problems of the world arise from the Boomer generation.
I am a 30 year old Realtor, so I get a lot of people fleeing liberal states to move to Texas. They want to join our secessionist movement as we wuld be the 14th largest economy on the planet, Only state to have it's own power grid and natural resources out the ass.
As far as friends, ranging from 20-45, they are ALL libertarian or freedom movement minded. Maybe it's just Texas, but we wont be pushed around and they are going to throw the straw that breaks our back to stand up. Most of our politicans are morons (Gov. Perry, Tons of congressmen, The other senator who is not Ted Cruz etc. etc. They are the ones accepting this and never, NEVER listen to the people.
Blah blah blah
I keep hearing all this talk about tough Texans, however when I go there on business I find that it's a shithole.
You fucking tough talking Texans ALREADY CONCEEDED. You've lost every single city on the southern border, along with San Antonio and Houston, Demographically you will NEVER REGAIN these cities.
The time for tough talk ended a long time ago, there needed to be real action, but there was nothing but bluster and now it's too late for you.
I've been living here for 7 years and I like it in Texas. It has a lot of good things going for it. I lived in the Northeast for 6 years before that and have no desire to again live anywhere in the stretch of land from the Mississippi to the Atlantic and north of the Mason-Dixon line if I can help it. Too many financial and morally bankrupt cities/governments, too many deluded liberal-collectivist types, too much fucking snow and ice.
The being said, Texas, like the rest of the Southwest, has lost the demographic war, like you said. If it were to become independent, it would last about 3 years before the fast-breeding Mexican majority annexes it back to Mexico. I wouldn't be surprised if English is a minority language down here in 30 years.
There is no honor among elderly useless eaters.
I often find myself thinking about old age, something I am rapidly approaching. Not only are the elderly captured by their possessions, but by their possessed thinking. Time and time again I have found when talking to the elderly that the one thing above all else that disturbs them greatly is 'change' they personally consider detrimental.Combine this with an entitlement mentality (if for no other reason than because they are elderly) and you have rigid thinking and fixed points of view.
It seems the mind is just as prone to arthritis as the joints when we age.
Tyler... tis a silly proposition. Everyones a radical when they're 18. few remain so by the time their kids are finishing high school.
mores the pity, im the freak
Everyones a radical when they're 18.
So what is holding Obama back?
ah the lingering power of social engineering, er : schooling ...
When you're 16 - 17 yrs old, I "influence" your mind...
When you're of age after decades of engieering I "own" your mind...
Freedom is always a first person proposition and never requires validation in the outer ...
Names on flags change - names on bank notes change - freedom is always a real time choice
Social engineering?
ORDINARY VOTE RIGGING!
www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbJif7vISQg
www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUR-HgAtwtg&feature=youtu.be
www.jaxobserver.com/2014/09/19/scotland-vote-rigging-possible-as-reports...
Welp, video evidence of rigging. This must never see the light in mainstream media.
Did they have a 110% turnout like Philly?
OH FFS, it was public vote. Anyone could have walked in, checking the ballots.
Furthermore, the ballots were counted multiple times, by different volunteers. And the election was managed by... the Scottish Government. Not Westminster.
Some of this ridiculous nonsense must come to an end. Not everything is a bloody conspiracy.
Ahh Yes.. Just like the good 'ol USSA voting system thanks to Chuck Hagel's electronic voting machine. You didnt think he became Sec Def because he is a military wiz right?
Freedom is always a first person proposition
This!! Finally, someone who gets it!
I'm a free man because I say I am!
If you're going to go vote to be free then you're already fucked in your own mind.
Which is the basis for my personal sovereignty series. But so many people, including many here on ZH, claim an individual can't be sovereign.
wait a moment, cog
first, the referendum was about independence from the UK. which would have left the dependence between the Scottish Citizenship that would have then been the sovereign. Citizenship is about shared sovereignty, or co-sovereignty
second, you can be sovereign. In Europe, we have a splendid example of a full sovereign (and autocrat): the Prince of Monaco
yes, the guy that can call the police (His Police) and tell them to grab his fleeing spouse before she leaves the country and bring her back to him. then he married her
though the Prince of Liechtenstein or the Prince of the Vatican (aka the Pope) are also good examples, though the first allows a parliament to advice him and the second has not the power to appoint his successor
three ingredients for full sovereignty: an armed force, a territory and recognition by most of the other sovereigns. In short, it's a club. the club of "you and whose army?"
"Freedom is always a first person proposition and never requires validation in the outer ..."
Beautifully said. The spouse and I came to this viewpoint later in life - better late than never. Many a conversation with the kids has centered on what they "learned" in school, and then talking about other perspectives on said "learning". We don't claim to be right, but posit that there are always multiple ways to view any given event, and that in some cases, words and intentions (or actions) do not align.
I think maybe your interpretation/thought process is rigid. Who exactly gave you the ego to judge? All you can do is interpret the input. Is your? interpretation becoming arthritic? Or your fear? or hubris? "I often find myself "thinking" about old age...then I write articles that explain the myths according to me to assuage what?
You are a soul wandering. Leave it at that.
I think maybe you are confusing judging and observing. For every finger I point at others I point three more back at myself.
I use my opposable thumb for hitchhiking.
Are you serious? So people should just accept change because some uninformed little millenial "social" ignat says that everyone should accept change because my trans-gender angry feminism prof said I needed to be part of the movement. http://www.ted.com/talks/derek_sivers_how_to_start_a_movement?language=en
The SNP ran a BS campaign. It amazes me the change in ZH attitude since the SNP would have nationalized everything in the country and effectively turned Scotland into Venezuala overnight. Let's not forget the SNP slogan was "Yes We Can" and brought David Axelrod and Jim Messina in as political consultants -- I seriously doubt the best interest of Scotland was priority. I would think that ZH would applaud the Scots for NOT voting for this kind of "independence". There is nothing but "anti-statist" rhetoric on ZH but isn't Progressivism nothing but absolute statism. Change you don't want to get behind no matter what age group you have been binned in.
As far as your contempt for the elderly -- how about some counterpoint with regards to the yutes. Maybe sometimes looking to your elders for some guidance from everything they have seen during their lifetimes can be a good thing and provide a check to just emotional knee jerk reactions to life from a younger perspective. Change can be good but change for change's sake is not always the best option. It takes some cheese on one's soul to fight back a mob mentality like the Progressive movement. You know, "I have to be social or I'm nobody" attitude of the current generation. Isn't fighting back a mob mentality being "independent".
Bottom line, if the Scots want independence, more power to them. Fight for it -- reject the spoon fed sugar coated nostalgia angles. Don't let the infiltrated University system use the youth as useful idiots to promote a bad change and be told to "accept it". I applaud them for fighting back the Progressive Socialist horde. There is always another day to fight a better fight.
You mean like some guidance from the Boomer Generation? ROFLMAO, what have they done for 'meriKa, besides sit like hogs at the .gov trough slopping everything up and screwing the kids, grand kids, great grand kids and on and on and on.......
I'd rather take Paul Krugman's wisdom then those selfish pricks 'wisdom'
Yeah, OK and the millenials aren't on EBT, SNAP and living off of student loans. It's only the boomers fault. (BTW, I'm not a boomer, I'm in the dead zone between the millenials and Boomers so I have my own beef with the Boomers. Doesn't mean that I don't listen to their experiences. Don't have to agree with it, but experience seems to be held in contempt with the current ME generation.)
CD was the one stating that the elderly should just accept change from the youth. I disagree. An individual should take all viewpoints and make a decision. I'd like to include the millenials but since they fucking know everything, you can't have a discussion.
And the boomers were the youth of the day spouting the same Progressive FSA bullshit(Great Society) as what's going on today. And as you say, how'd that workout for everybody.
Your argumentation has gaping holes in it.
The old farts are against change, any kind of change, and accordingly seem to have been the deciding factor in the Scotland vote too. That is not a case of "take all viewpoints and make a decision" by them, but simple fear of "we don't know exactly how it will be after the proposed change and therefore we're against it" mentality.
Saying "the millenials are just as bad as the boomers" is not a valid excuse, in that universality wrong anyway, and you're ignoring that the boomers grew up pampered with almost unlimited freedoms while the millenials are growing up pampered into becoming debt serfs (almost no freedoms).
TO quote Macho Man below:
Yes, but when posed with a zero sum game, we must decide the culpability of the parties. In this sense, the people attempting to collect the checks have had much longer to determine it was a ponzi, effectuate political change, and/or take measures to protect themselves. Further, the economic conditions that gave rise to the system are practically impossible for younger generations to support. In short, the shape of the economy was also determined, to a large extent, by those seeking to collect the checks.
What culpability does a 20 something have in this system's failure?
Excellent points.
Bitch all you want about younger generation[s], I myself am 42 soon to be 43 and caught in the middle as some have said. But I think those wil the most time on the board should have the most responsibility, like it or not.
Pampered? There were no recessions and hard times before millenials? The 70's, first half of the 80's,90's and 2000's would beg to differ. And EBT, endless student loans for 6th year freshmans aren't being pampered? 24 year presciption pill junkies on Social Security disability benefits aren't being pampered.
This whole boomers screwed everybody party llne is getting old. Yes, it's fucked up and they are culpable, but so am I and so are you. We allow this Progressive insanity to grow and propagate to ridiculous propoprtions. And don't you think primary problems are because of public unions and gubmint spending gone amok over the last 20 years or so? But millenials are taking theirs up front and screwing the generations behind them. Stop doing the self-absolution and the "I'm a victim it's somebody else's fault schtick". Take some culpability as part of the problem.
"Saying "the millenials are just as bad as the boomers" is not a valid excuse, in that universality wrong anyway, and you're ignoring that the boomers grew up pampered with almost unlimited freedoms while the millenials are growing up pampered into becoming debt serfs (almost no freedoms)."
"Almost no freedoms". I don't know if you're serious or just toeing the line. The millenials have by far the most freedoms of any generation even with the disgusting pullbacks of the last 15 years. You're not special in being herded in becoming debt serfs either by the way. It's been happening since 1913 in the United States. And being able to post thoughts globally with high speed internet and 4G smartphones is downright Maoist oppression. And ask an actuarial in a financial shop, all their marketing is geared for the 2020 millenial shift of assets from mommy and daddy boomer to the millenials(Most likely living in their basement on their dime). The whole "pauvre moi" dog don't hunt anymore. And I say the millenials are worse than boomers. They wan't their shit now and when they get old. And the gubmint to pay for it.
And why should old farts change because of some young person said so. Who the hell are the millenials. A little too self-important. Maybe if the young Scots didn't spew the "fuck the old" SNP party line and reached out to the old farts and tried to make them understand, the Scots would be celebrating a "YES" vote.
So now you extend that to "the millenials are just as bad as the boomers, and as bad as the X-ers" by saying "Yes, it's fucked up and they are culpable, but so am I and so are you."
I'm an X-er too. And I refuse to follow any purely relational logic that end with either "It's everybody's fault just the same" or "It's no-one's fault."
The millenials have by far the most freedoms of any generation even with the disgusting pullbacks of the last 15 years.
You're blind or full of shit!
Freedoms need to be meaningful, in other words with the ability to change something, otherwise it's a sham. Millenials have the freedom to sit in the right or left corner of their golden cage, if anything.
Any construed argument along the lines "but if a millenial would see through the 99% lies he is surrounded with, and never take on debt, and search and take many chances to find an employer that doesn't want to only exploit him but gives him a chance to learn and earn (yes, a few do still exist), then he would do fine!"
are just your rationalizing away the millenials plight by picking out the single person miraculously doing all right.
This guy says it much better than I can:
http://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=229441
Whack
+1000
I am 63, I am elderly, and I refuse to be a useless eater. I own my own company and I will be useful till the day I die or I will choose not to live. I tire of reading the stories of poor Joe in Detriot getting his pension cut that he's been on SINCE 1982!!! Give me a fucking break. A social security check will never EVER soil my hands, regardless of what I have paid in.
Useful according to whom?
Of what use are any of us? Were you sent here by god to serve and save your fellow man?
Useful in the sense that he provides a product and/or service that has value to other people.
We can assume that it's useful because apparently his business is still in business - people are buying what he's selling.
No need to get all philosophical on his ass.
Let alone that he is 63 and probably accomplishes more in a day than they do in a week. Snot-nosed, smartasses are too busy typing crap me thinks.
In other words, you think there's nothing wrong with negative interest rates that destroy the savings, i.e. pensions, of the elderly (that can no longer get a job) so the younger generation can get autos and iphones for zero down payments?
A "fucking break" is what you'll get! No matter how much you've saved or "paid in" in capital to support yourself in your later infirmity (or useless eaterhood), it will be stolen by those that "need" that shiny new symbol of their "success" at filling out loan documents.
P.S. Fuck you. You deserve to die penniless.
Yes change solves all problems. That and hope. Changing contracts and the meaning of promises just when they are coming due. The obscenity of it all! We don't need no stinking rules
Kind of. One might argue that hoisting a mandatory retirement system on the backs of the entire populace was an unrealistic and immoral change to our society. One might also argue that it is immoral for one generation to impose that on another. In a normal scenario, the party having the obligation to perform (e.g. the financial company handling your retirement) would simply file for bankruptcy when claims exceeded its ability to pay. However, solutions are much less palatable (and tend to be exacerbated by a larger checkbook) when the government intermeddles. Whereas in a normal scenario, the private company would be allowed to go forever into the night, the government's bill must be paid by the citizenry... many of whom have no culpability in creating the situation and, further, have no marginal income to be taxed.
This is why there is sovereign immunity... the government (we) cannot be sued for the wrongs of a few, when many citizens have no moral culpability in causing the problem.
It isn't just a simple contract issue.
Nor is it a simple issue of those who have paid and become dependent upon these lies to be perceived as "useless eaters". Americans are living in an exception time with positives and negatives and we useless eaters have not been sitting on our asses.
Yes, but when posed with a zero sum game, we must decide the culpability of the parties. In this sense, the people attempting to collect the checks have had much longer to determine it was a ponzi, effectuate political change, and/or take measures to protect themselves. Further, the economic conditions that gave rise to the system are practically impossible for younger generations to support. In short, the shape of the economy was also determined, to a large extent, by those seeking to collect the checks.
What culpability does a 20 something have in this system's failure?
Oh Yeeaaahhhhh!
Spot on.
How much did that 20 something contribute to his support during the first 20 years of his life? Was he a useless eater? Does he not have any obligation to those that gave him life and his 13 years of public school brain-washing so that he can serve the PTB in the manner in which they have become accustomed?
Or does TPTB have an obligation instead? The 20 something is one of their livestock, adding to the value of their herds.
Who CHOSE to bring that 20 something into this world? Last time I checked none of us chose our parents or to be here, so does not those that created the life have a sense of responsibility for it?
WTF difference does it make whether you got the opportunity to vote on whether your parents fucked or not? If you did have that opportunity, how would you have voted? If you would have voted against it, why not fix it now by committing suicide?
According to your demented logic, abortions should be mandatory since the fetus didn't get to choose its parents. That philosophy WOULD solve a lot of society's problems, I must admit.
There has always been "a mandatory retirement system on the backs of the entire populace". It was not "an unrealistic and immoral change to our society". It was what made our society. It has existed for millennia, in one form or another.
The alternative is to kill the elderly "useless eaters" when they can no longer compete in the job market against the healthier younger and stronger workers.
A century ago, the elderly were taken care of by their family. This was considered to be a fair payback, since those elderly once took care of the young during their maturations.
When people migrated to the cities from the farms due to the industrial revolution, this historical economic model became untenable, so the current pension, i.e. paper investment, economic model was created. One's capital to take care of them in their old age was part of their working age earnings, rather than human capital that they produced through their children.
Unfortunately this paper investment capital has been subject to theft by the financial "services", banking and political establishment.
You have been brain-washed.
Now you will see the last brain drain of Scots leaving the losers behind, before Scotland go FULL RETARD ! .. what else would you do after a result like that ??
NEVER GO FULL RETARD !!!
The Scottish brain drain has been going on for centuries now. All that are left are the dregs.
The brain drain is one of the reasons for the left behind (or afraid to risk) welfaristas....
But really, hasn't that thinking become the requirement for getting hired on WS or in London? They are welfaristas with nice suits.
Don't eat the young Put them to work so you can get a piece of the taxes they will pay.
Succinctly describing the transition from overt to covert (often referred to as voluntary (aka without informed consent) slavery. Give or take 1871 was the transition for the Dis-united states.
After all we now know that there is no balls under the kilts
Fuck old people.
http://www.prisonplanet.com/yes-supporters-claim-videos-show-scottish-re...
Dome of salt and all that of course.
Vote Rigging! I'm horrified!
The oligarchs will go to whatever lengths required.
Are we prepared to?
if you are 20 and conservative, you have no heart
if you are liberal at 40 you have no brain.
almost everyone who supported freedom on this site had no idea at all how bad the economics would be after Scottish freedon so you mostly fall into category 2.
It never ceases to amaze me how little economic knwoledge authors and commentators on this supposed economic blog actualally have
They kept on saying that all the savers would lose all their savings in the bank and real estate prices would plummet.
They forgot to mention the oil and other natural resource deals that would turn Scotland into a taxfree country.
People just didn't care enough and trusted the state to supply them with honest info. Which they didn't.
Err... not quite.
The amount of claims in regards to exactly HOW rich oil would make every Scot was frankly staggering. It would pay for "a better NHS", a "Nordic-style welfare state", "free education for all", etc et - and all of this without raising taxes (of course), or any concern about the shrinking North Sea output. 'Yes' led a typical emotionally driven, socialist goodfeel-rhetoric campaign, and dodged all the hard questions.
Finally - the older generation tends to be more conservative. Where's the news in that?
Which vote gets me more stuff?
Yes, that seems to be the real question on people's minds.
It's always the question on peoples' minds... humanity is still alive because of our inherent desire for self preservation. However, it should also be noted that the protests regarding EU austerity (paying for the money you took) are primarily for increased benefits... not to be rid of the intrusion or obligation. Of course, if you don't have any desire to be productive post collapse, then you'd best get everything you can before hand.
"Which vote gets me more stuff?" I had the impression that journalists, economists and some politicians were nearly obsessed with this question. But frankly, neither the SNP nor most people I asked about from Scotland were thinking in those terms. Some were inflamed about rumours that the British would reduce pensions and the National Health Service and things like that
as EscapeKey says, lots of bullshit from both sides during the canvassing phase
But frankly, neither the SNP nor most people I asked about from Scotland were thinking in those terms.
Perhaps, but I still maintain that individual material security is the prime motivator behind contemporary group decision making. Unlike MachoMan, (I think), I do not believe that this represents the inherent nature of humanity.
Keep the population as stupid as they can possible be.
Then, when you have ‘most’ of the population mediocre….
Religion and Politics run their lives.
Keep the population as stupid as they can possible be.
It's basically just Common Core math.
"Freedumb..."
William Wallace
and now Belgium wants to split up between the Flemish (Dutch) and French, which makes sense since they've never gotten along;
http://rt.com/op-edge/188684-flanders-independence-referendum-belgium/
This can be a beginning. Yes the vote failed, but the idea is now out there and growing.
Amusing, but meaningless. The world changes, your point of view changes. Who knows what the world will be 10 years from now.
What is changing....?
Same Shit Diferent Day unless mislead.
Or assumptive of change.
In 10 years? Bankrupt and starving. It's been heading that direction for at least two decades.
If nothing changes, nothing changes.
10 years from now we will still live in an oligarch (FASCIST) controlled world.
If nothing changes.
Bloody wankers, I was going to get drunk on scotch and run up the stars n bars. Guess ill get drunk on burbon and run up the stars n bars
Looks like people do learn to love their chains.
As Pepe Escobar just posted on Facebook: if Brussels and the city want the same thing from you, you know you're fucked if you give it to them.
Assuming the 'vote' was properly counted and tabulated (something I suspect was goal seeked) it speaks to the last minute propaganda scare tactics when many 'authorities' began the threaten old age pensions if Scotland became independent.
Cognitive dissonance
Therein lays the reason nothing will ever change through a political process here in the US either. No one near or at the age of drawing a pension is going to vote or otherwise engage in any action to upset the status quo. I wonder if we would have had a revolution back in 1776 if we had a large senior demographic then.
Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Most people think this refers 'only' to those in power. In fact it also refers to those who are dependent upon those who have (absolute) power.
Piss off
Four years in.....and that's it?
If nothing changes, nothing changes.
10 years from now we will still live in an oligarch (FASCIST) controlled world.
If nothing changes.
Oh please. There was some stupid picture doing the rounds about votes in the "no" pile doing the rounds earlier - it sounds like you refer to that, despite that being dispelled already.
And believe me, there was just as much bullshit posted by the 'Yes' campaign. It was essentially fear mongering vs feelgood "Yes we can" rhetoric.
I refer only to my own stupid thinking. I trust no 'authority' of any shape, form or creation except my own. While I don't know what image you are referring to I ask a simple question. How can you believe ANYTHING you read, see or hear as reported by any state controlled or influenced media. And for that matter, in the alternative press as well. To think the alternative press is 'free' of control and influence is the height of naivety and closed loop thinking.
Blah blah, standard ZH media rant.
Bullshit promises were made on both sides. End of.
There can be only one.
When progressive republicans and democrats unite......look the hell out.
Of course they were. The "yes" movement was thoroughly subverted and disarmed as is standard operating procedure with an center of power. Why destroy and expose yourself when you can subvert and defuse?
Everything has to be a conspiracy, huh?
Troll
Yes. Yes, of course. Anyone with a dissenting opinion must be a troll.
Because on page 1 of this thread, the conspiracy is that the elite wants the Union to stay together. Clearly, the elite must be in London.
On page 2, the elite is in Bruxelles, and they want the union to break up.
Christ, but you're clueless. London and Brussels are but two heads of the same goddamn Hydra.
Oh I see. That must be why they're clearly schizophrenic about the state of the Union.
if Brussels is a damn Hydra, then it's at least a 28 heads damn Hydra. EscapeKey is right here, and as usual naked truth is not welcome
though the Brussels Hydra was mostly silent on this matter of the Scotland Referendum, with the exception of the Spanish and Italian heads not wanting to see encouragement for their own independence movements. So? Is it undue influence to tell in advance to the Scottish electorate that they would not be automatically members of the EU? It's a damn club, it can make it's own damn rules about who can enter and who can't, or how
fact is that if the 28 heads Hydra had promised immediate accession of Scotland to the EU, some more would have voted yes instead of no. It's a fact that the average Scot is way more attached to the EU then the average English. But I'm talking about the 5 million that live in Scotland, not the 30+ million Scottish diaspora that has only a very vague and romanticized notion of european matters
Trollist
Are you retarded?
It is always easier to subvert and destroy than organize and build.
And that's not a conspiracy theory.
Trolling
Blah blah blah blah blah...again and again. Go mow your lawn.
Too funny. Are we triggered this morning? Is your cognitive dissonance showing?
Mine is. Every day for all to see.
Troller
VOTE RIGGING EXPOSED
www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbJif7vISQg
www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUR-HgAtwtg&feature=youtu.be
So STFU!
I don't understand - if she wanted to rig the vote, she could have switched at the beginning. Far more likely she made a common mistake, double checked, and fixed the situation.
Oh sorry MUST BE A CONSPIRACY!
Anyway, you do realize this is a public count, right? You can literally go check the ballots yourself, if you so desire.
it's a paper ballot, with handwritten X's instead of holes, with volunteers from at least half a dozen parties plus independents watching all the time the proceedings, a public count in front of whoever wants to watch, a public declaration of the final count in every ballot room, and a clear counting that can be followed up
in short, the way voting should be, and is, in most of Europe. whoever can't believe it, should come and volunteer. yes, even foreigners are allowed
Yep. I've been a scrutineer on many occasions and it's very hard for counters to fudge the numbers, particularly when the vote is as simple as an X in one of two boxes.
The sticklers watch like a hawk. Each time I've scrutineered there has been one or more of the other scrutineers who's a total stickler and asks for recount of an entire pile because of just one inevitable slip up. Because each side puts in sticklers, they'll be at war with each other to see who can catch more slip-ups, to the annoyance of the counters who tend to slip up equally to both sides.
Meanwhile, we're all on the phones talking to our various networks of other observers at other polling stations, maintaining a good feel for how it's going. There comes a point where the result is given and there really isn't any need to count the rest of the piles. I'll ease up the scrutineering at that point but the sticklers will keep it up right to the end. Some kind of obssessive personality trait or something. It's a huge PITA when it's 2am, the result is already clear, everyone's tired and wants to go home, and the goddamned stickler's forcing recounts.
Nobody games that process, those of us in the halls would know it for sure. Seconded Ghordius, It's the only way voting should be.
bless you. and bless all the volunteers, bless all the scrutineers, and all the counters and yes, bless the sticklers, too
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Look...the "Yes" campaign blew it. Plain and simple. They had everything in their favour. Kids allowed to vote, 50.01% threshold and a totally complacent Westminster elite who only woke up after the rogue poll 10 days ago.
The blew it on the currency issue. They didn't have the guts to formulate a proper plan for economic independence, with their own currency. That left them very vulnerable and exposed a fatal weakness in their ideology which was exploited fully by "No" once they finally woke up. All the momentum was lost in the last week of campaigning...and the Scots reacted to that uncertainty in predictable fashion.
I would agree with that to a certain extent.
You can get the emotional crowd to ignore fundamental issues like the currency, because their experience with mortgage, savings, investments, and the hard labour required to acquire these - but the older generation which have put in their work will see through transparent attempts to dodge these questions.
But in reality, given the timeline, did they have another choice but to dodge these? The English were never going to allow them control over monetary policy (and why would they??), and any kind of Dollarization would put them in the same difficulty as Club Med. They couldn't default on their promises, because that would have frozen the lending market, which meant that they had to take a sizeable chunk of debt with them.
It just seemed that avoiding the topic altogether (and hope people were naive enough to ignore it) was the best option available.
here I disagree. "The English were never going to allow them control over monetary policy". This was not a Scottish demand. All they asked is a Sterlingization, i.e. a continuation of BoE monetary control. The real issue was the "Lender Of Last Resort" issue vs the Scotland-based banks, and even that would have been solved by the larger banks moving their HQs to London
further, a Dollarization is not comparable with the eurozone's "Club Med" difficulties. The whole matter is a slightly bit more complicated than that
There was nothing stopping them from Dollarization. Had they been happy with that, the discussion would have ended right there and then, but it didn't. They never accepted that as a solution. And yes, they wanted the BoE to backstop their banks as well, I forgot to add that one. Though many commenters appeared to believe that the Federal Reserve would ride to their rescue, should RBS suffer a second collapse... other commenters appeared to support a Mutually-Assured-Destruction scenario - in spite of the irony, seeing how they almost certainly were quick to criticize bank MAD behaviour, when they forced their bailout in 2008.
It is comparable in the sense that Club Med have very little - if any - control over monetary policy. Had the Greeks their own central bank, no doubt they would have inflated their way out of the situation already, as they have in the past.
agree that they did not accept it as a solution. yet on the other side, something could have been concocted, after a Yes vote. it isn't rocket science, and Scotland isn't a developing market
the Greeks have their national Bank. you have to have a national bank in order to join the EuroSystem (aka eurozone). Greece could issue a New Drachma immediately, and the Greek Parliament could switch immediately to the New Drachma. The only thing holding them back is that 65% of Greeks want the EUR
of course, there is too the debt denominated in EUR. yet again, Greece could default. And again, it's not what a strong majority of Greeks want
and why are they against it? well, because they know the effects of this kind of measures
We largely agree, however their national bank does not set monetary policy, and can't print to its hearts content. And yes, they can switch to the Drachma relatively quickly, however no debt market has much faith in the Drachma, as they have been in a state of default 50% of the time since the end of WW2. Not ignoring their 41-46 period of hyperinflation, which the Germans attempted to stabilize multiple times (attempts which boiled down to selling gold on the open market in support of the Drachma)...
exactly....if they had run their camapign with the stated intention of setting up their own Central Bank and currency, that would have been far more in line with their desire for independence. It's not like they don't have significant assets. Then they at least would have been able to control the economic debate to a far greater extent. Instead, they left themselves totally vulnerable to the obvious scare tactics deployed by the Westminster brigade once the polls started to tighten. They lost it in the last week...because they couldn't reassure yes voters who had significant assets to protect...it was shortsighted and very poor tactical campaigning from start to finish.
Just remember none of this is real
you are welcome. I mean, you are right. nothing is real, everything is a figment of your imagination. in reality, you are a butterfly dreaming
Hell look at the 25 to 54 demographic... all those working and paying taxes for everyone else wanted out in a big way too... Only those college age or retirement age wanted to stay in the union...
One of my neighbours is Scottish (we're in Wales, though) and correctly predicted the yes/no ratio a few weeks ago. Looks like his view that the older end of the demographic would carry the NO vote was spot on, too.
As he said, the 65+ bracket have spent their entire lives paying National Insurance to get their pensions and aren't going to vote YES and risk not getting it (and, yes, he knows as well as we all do that most of that pension money will be printed into existence, because the current system was set up when lifespan meant you'd only get to claim 2-5 years worth of pension before kicking the bucket).
It will look the same. People age and get more complacent. And without jobs they need gov more than ever. As such gov will continue to ensure that they are #1 job/benefits provider and that the private sector is run by only a handful of major companies.
Let's follow the U.S. model and bomb England in three days because it's good for the economy and earn a Nobel peace price for it just like Obama.
Gary Oldman explains why graffiti is good for the world! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tt1W0F0yObg
When you see the gold being removed from London for safe keeping...
There is a reason why kids shouldn´t vote.
What´s next.. 14-12 year olds votting??
Young people haven´t lived enough to remember past events.
That´s also why the election of new "Hitlers" and "Mussolinis" increases every passing year.
I'm hoping most teenagers can spell and use punctuation better than you?
Maybe over 65's shouldn't be able to vote. They've had a life, and pulled the ladder up with them. Fucks.
Vai-te foder.
Now translate that d*ck, if you can figure out the language.
I´m not native english. Would like to see you speel in my native language.
Do you really think a 16yo kid can really make a sound judgment on a subject like this?
Foder: A verb. It comes from the Latin verb foedere, futuere which means to open holes in the land to seed it. This verb acquired the meaning of “to have sexual intercourse”, being an equivalent for the English “to fuck”. It is also used in the expression “vá-se foder”/”vai-te foder”, which means the same as the English “fuck you” and “go fuck yourself”.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portuguese_profanity
No surprise, old farts do not want to take any type of risk. For the most part they want a big nanny gubmint to take care of them at the expence of others. They don't care who pays as long as it's not them. True the world over.
No worries.
The pension plan "No" voters will be reduced.
EEEeeeBBOOWWWLLAAAAA !
Sad, bribed with their own money............is this the fate of the rest of the world?
Bribed with the younger generations' money, you mean. Look at how the demographics broke down. Those whose pensions are dependent on other people's money voted no. Those who have to pay for those pensions voted yes.
If the question had been "Should America split into two separate countries?" the result would have been the same.
You only get one King Solomon.....and he's been dead for quite a while now.
Cut the children in half and hand part to both sides....it's the only way.
Of course they do. They want to start their own ponzi pyramid.
ZH: the alternative alternate reality
Real video proof of vote rigging,They stuffed up this time.Get this going viral. http://youtu.be/kUR-HgAtwtg
The remaining bottles of Scotch I possess will now be used for toilet bowl cleaner....
Everyone that is a burden wanted to stay in. Everyone that is forced to take care of the burdens wanted out.
Gubmint cheese, it's what's for dinner!
Can't say I'm surprised by the results, as I predicted these results. When the takers outnumber the makers, freedom is always a secondary consideration. And personal responsibility? It's not even in the same ballpark.
Sigh.
My sentiments exactly Captain.
I think too many bitchez have watched too many Braveheart reruns.
I don't think they realize that Scotland is not the land yearning to be free of the English yoke....it is the land of the handout.
This is 2014.
Not 1214.
"respect your elders" ....
Elders also need to respect the youth.
Bullshit. Do what you're fucking told. The brain doesn't have full comprehension until 22-25 years old.
The producers Vs non-producers again.
The 65 and over crowd can't leave the union, they'll die of starvation, poor and broken.
The misallocation of resources is astonishing!
The vote wont look any different. The fossils vote for extending their benefits a few more weeks till they're dead. The notion that there's going to be some groundswell of support for liberty or self-reliance is dead. The takers have won.
LOL, "voting" for independence.
I'm glad the US Founding Fathers weren't as pussified as the Scots.
Rifles make the best protest signs and bullets the best ballots.
William Wallace and Robert the Bruce were Scotland's version of the Founding Fathers. Isn't it funny how three hundred years of increasing dependence on central gubmint thins the blood.
Putin he should have transferred 5 Bil to Scotland to put it on the "right"/independantist tracks.
After all 5 Bil is what Nuland spent on Ukraine.
"You mess with my backyard, I mess with yours".
Putin is a wimp...
Imagine - the kids know whats better for scotland than the old fogies
This is the reason why people on any Government Dole should not be allowed to vote.
Food stamp recipients vote for increases.
Oldsters vote to enslave the young.
We producers never get offered a euthanasia referendum.
In the 13 colonies, only land-owning men were allowed to vote.