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China Moves To Dominate Gold Market With Physical Exchange

Tyler Durden's picture




 

Submitted by GoldCore

China Moves To Dominate Gold Market With Physical Exchange

China is slowly moving to dominate the global gold market and it is important to join the dots regarding a few key recent developments in China relating to gold.

When the International Board of the Shanghai Gold Exchange (SGE) was launched last Thursday September 18 during an evening trading session, it was notable that the first transactions were put through by a diverse group comprising HSBC, MKS (Switzerland), and the Chinese banks,  ICBC, Bank of China and Bank of Communications.

MKS is the Geneva headquartered precious metals trading group that also owns the large PAMP refinery company in Switzerland. 

There are reportedly 40 international participants signed up to trade on the SGE International Board (SGEI), but the SGE hasn't specifically confirmed the identities of all participants. 

Like the domestic SGE which counts precious metals refineries as members, the SGEI will have a diverse group of trading participants including a number of international refineries as well as bullion banks and trading houses. 

Precious metals refineries Metalor Technologies and Heraeus have confirmed that they will be participants and along with MKS, this represents three of the largest gold refineries in the world. 

International bullion banks who have already announced their participation include ANZ, Standard Chartered and HSBC, and its also known that Standard Bank, JP Morgan and the Bank of Nova Scotia were said to be interested. The Perth Mint was also said to be interested. 

The presence of international refineries and possibly international mints as possible direct participants within SGEI trading should improve liquidity and price discovery on the new international exchange and help it become a serious competitor to the existing duopoly of gold price discovery carried on in the London OTC market and the New York gold futures market. 

One encouraging factor about the SGE and the SGE international platform is that there is a lot of physical gold flowing through the Exchange. Therefore, price discovery is not just based on an inverted pyramid of mostly unallocated gold as in London or mostly cash-traded futures paper gold as in New York. 

Like everything in China, the SGE thinks big and it currently employs a network of 58 certified vaults, 55 of which are for storing gold and 3 of which store silver. These 58 vaults are located in 36 Chinese cities that are considered important for gold refining and gold consumption and physical delivery can actually occur between the vaults. 

With the launch of the SGEI, the International Board has its own new vault in which international participants can load gold in and out of. The is vault is being managed by Bank of Communications and is strategically located in the Zhabei district, not too far from the Shanghai International Airport. Brinks in Shanghai will be the official transporters of gold for the SGEI.

Shanghai and Hong Kong Gold Markets To Connect

When the Hong Kong based Chinese Gold and Silver Society (CGSE) announced last week that they plan to build a massive new precious metals vault in Qianhai in Shenzhen, the significance of this announcement was not really appreciated, as of yet.

The vault is not a stand alone project and its real purpose is to support a CGSE gold trading platform in Shenzhen and allow this new Shenzhen gold exchange to link up with the Shanghai Gold Exchange. Shenzhen is less than one hour away from Hong Kong by rail or road. 

The CGSE has 171 members and between 50 and 60 of these will be registered to operate on the new Shenzhen gold exchange by as early as next month. 

At the CGSE announcement ceremony last week, Dr. Haywood Cheung the president of the CGSE confirmed that he has begun negotiations with the Shanghai Gold Exchange with the intention of forming a strategic alliance between the new CGSE exchange in Shenzhen and the Shanghai Gold Exchange. 

The main objective said Cheung "was to enable a mutual access between CGSE and the Shanghai Gold Exchange for market participants in the form of a "Shanghai Hong Kong Precious Metals Connect", which could help the local gold & silver industry to gain access to the mainland market through the Qianhai project."

The Chinese and Hong Kong Governments and financial authorities are going to model this 'Precious Metals Connect' on the soon to be launched "Shanghai - Hong Kong Stock Connect", which is an initiative between the Shanghai and Hong Kong stock markets to boost liquidity and access between the two stock markets and access between  Chinese A and H shares.

Chinese A shares are shares of mainland Chinese companies traded in yuan/renminbi. H shares are the Hong Kong listing of the dual-listed mainland stocks training on HK dollars. In the 'Stock Connect' there will be northbound and southbound daily flows of liquidity within certain limits between the Hong Kong and Shanghai stock markets. The Shanghai - Hong Kong Stock Connect initiative starts next month on October 13.

The CGSE  therefore is planning that their Shenzhen gold platform will become China's second gold exchange and offer Hong Kong and the international market another route of access to the mainland Chinese gold market. 

This is important news and a very significant development and is worth watching over the coming months.

PBOC and Gold - China Using Gold To Position Yuan As Reserve Currency

Recent comments by David Marsh, the co-founder of the influential advisory and research group, the Official Monetary and Financial Institutions Forum (OMFIF), illustrate that a paradigm shifts is also occurring within the official Chinese sector as regards gold and the renminbi currency.


Interviewed at this month's Chinese gold conference in Beijing, Marsh said that “I don’t know if China has been boosting their official gold reserves,” but he added that  “over the past six or seven years the Chinese authorities probably have been adding to their holdings in different ways.”

Marsh’s most recent comments resonate with similar comments he made in January 2013 when he said that “it is likely that the Chinese authorities will carry on purchasing gold in modest amounts and they will do it in a way calculated not to disturb the market.”

Commenting on reserve diversification at the time, Marsh said that “there’s no reason why the Chinese central bank should hold a disproportionate amount of other countries’ reserve  currencies such as the dollar.” 

Just over a week ago, the UK Treasury announced the issuance of its  first ever renminbi sovereign bond, in a move that is seen as a continued boost to the internationalisation of the Chinese currency. The proceeds of HM Treasury’s issue will become part of the UK’s foreign reserves in the Exchange Equalisation Account (EEA). 

Until now the EEA has only held gold, euros, dollars, yen and Canadian dollars. Some other central banks such as the Australian Reserve Bank already hold renminbi as part of their reserves, and others such as the Swiss National Bank are considering adding renminbi as one of their reserve assets.

Last week, to coincide with the British government’s renminbi announcement, David Marsh penned a commentary for the OMFIF on reserve diversification and the Chinese currency titled “A Big Chinese step for Britain: UK moves to forefront of Renminbi internationalisation”.

Marsh highlights that in 2015, the IMF will review the composition of their Special Drawing Right (SDR) monetary unit, and an important milestone for the Chinese currency will be “the possible inclusion of the renminbi” in the SDR. According to Marsh. “there is a growing belief that the Chinese currency now conforms to a sufficient number of standards for convertibility that it will be become one of the constituent parts along with the dollar, the euro, yen and sterling.”
 
In all aspects of the Chinese gold market, be it the commercial sector or the official sector, the importance of gold as an investment and as a backing to a future currency is being explicitly signalled by the Chinese authorities.

The rest of the world should take note that when the Chinese decide on a plan, they almost invariably see it through. For gold, the Chinese are still planning big and the next phase of this plan is worth watching.

These important developments in the Chinese gold market are bullish for gold in the long term and should reassure jittery investors after recent price falls.

 

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Tue, 09/23/2014 - 11:55 | 5247654 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

Sure, they might support a limited "physical exchange" but there is no way the PBC is going to "open their books" to the world.  Please, this culture invented paper money and oppression/domination through it's apllication, in this regard, the U.S. isn't even close.

Tue, 09/23/2014 - 11:59 | 5247670 El Oregonian
El Oregonian's picture

One we'll all wake up, and fiat will be just a sour memory.

Tue, 09/23/2014 - 12:00 | 5247674 Newsboy
Newsboy's picture

The enemy of my enemy is my...

enema?

Tue, 09/23/2014 - 12:06 | 5247700 Manthong
Manthong's picture

“58 certified vaults, 55 of which are for storing gold and 3 of which store silver.”

Interesting…

That is an 18:1 gold to silver vault ratio.

Tue, 09/23/2014 - 12:15 | 5247713 Supernova Born
Supernova Born's picture

Real money/gold is good for the middle class. Fake fiat empowers centralized power with access to force and violence.

I just can't see the Chinese promoting anything that empowers the middle class against centralized power.

Tue, 09/23/2014 - 12:23 | 5247776 agstacks
agstacks's picture

Don't the chinese recommend their citizens hold gold?

Tue, 09/23/2014 - 12:25 | 5247786 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

Yes, while actively hamstringing the citizen's ability to actually afford it.  Masters of propaganda, ask yourself, are you a "good citizen" or a "bad citizen"?  My Chinese contacts say that the latter simply disappear.

Tue, 09/23/2014 - 12:29 | 5247798 Manthong
Manthong's picture

This is an interesting forum.

Some brain-dead clown down voted an absolute statement of fact.

 

Tue, 09/23/2014 - 13:08 | 5248030 BaBaBouy
BaBaBouy's picture

OVER The Next Year, This Thing Should SUCK DRY The Few Remaining Phys GOLD Ozs Still Available On The Other PAPER GOLD Exchanges...

Tue, 09/23/2014 - 14:53 | 5248639 COSMOS
COSMOS's picture

While the USA bombs, the Chinese are building, creating, and developing infrastructure and institutions.  The Fall of the USA will herald the Rise of CHINA

Tue, 09/23/2014 - 15:07 | 5248750 Quaderratic Probing
Quaderratic Probing's picture

New stuff to bomb

Tue, 09/23/2014 - 13:47 | 5248040 sleigher
sleigher's picture

Yet your last comment stands unmolested by the red arrow.  That is interesting.

 

edit: I stand corrected.

Tue, 09/23/2014 - 12:30 | 5247815 Latitude25
Latitude25's picture

So a poor Chinese can't do what a poor Indian farmer does and buy a few grams?

Tue, 09/23/2014 - 12:23 | 5247780 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

Yes, in fact, there is plenty of evidence that the oligarchs in the west are very envious of what the chinese state has done.  A world the works for chinese wages would suit them just fine. 

Hedge accordingly.

Tue, 09/23/2014 - 12:34 | 5247833 Groundhog Day
Groundhog Day's picture

all this money spent on vaults, security, exchanges, technology for a "barbaric relic" based on nothing more then then "tradition"...interesting

Tue, 09/23/2014 - 13:11 | 5248047 Took Red Pill
Took Red Pill's picture

according to MSN MarketWatch gold is dead;

http://money.msn.com/top-stocks/post--gold-crashes-and-is-now-tarnished-...

what propaganda BS!

Tue, 09/23/2014 - 13:20 | 5248092 random999
random999's picture

oh no, if its dead I better buy more before it disapears from the market!

Kinda like that yellow shinyness... rather have that than my 010100010110100s on my fiat account. Never know when they come to confiscate my digital 0101010000101s...

Tue, 09/23/2014 - 12:53 | 5247951 debtor of last ...
debtor of last resort's picture

And look what's written under Shanghai Gold Exchange, in the picture, in the dark...

Tue, 09/23/2014 - 13:21 | 5248097 random999
random999's picture

nice spotted!

Tue, 09/23/2014 - 13:42 | 5248186 debtor of last ...
debtor of last resort's picture

Kudo's to Koos Jansen, ingoldwetrust.ch

Tue, 09/23/2014 - 16:06 | 5249042 RockyRacoon
RockyRacoon's picture

China Foreign Exchange Trade System

Had to crop that area and fix the gamma a lot in Irfanview to get a clear image.

Nice.

Wed, 09/24/2014 - 08:02 | 5250953 sarz
sarz's picture

It makes sense to keep gold pieces in a vault, and sliver bricks under the bed.

Tue, 09/23/2014 - 12:45 | 5247903 cnmcdee
cnmcdee's picture

Jonathan Cahn's newest book 'The Mystery of the Shemitah : The 3,000-Year-Old Mystery That Holds the Secret of America's Future shows a clear pattern

In Shemitah Years - BIG Market Corrections / Market Crashes, and Economic Depressions happen with 85-90% certainty.

The next Shemitah Year will begin September 24th, 2014, and run until September 13th, 2015.

Feel free to laugh at the analysis and ignore it the books shows a clear track record of this 'Year of Release' being a hammer to the markets.

Tue, 09/23/2014 - 14:02 | 5248297 Squiddly Diddly
Squiddly Diddly's picture

Hebrew-ish Heresies

"Feel free to laugh at the analysis and ignore it the books shows a clear track record of this 'Year of Release' being a hammer to the markets."

Thanks, I love the feeling of freedom.

http://www.fightingforthefaith.com/2014/09/hebrew-ish-heresies.html

Tue, 09/23/2014 - 14:03 | 5248320 goose fat
goose fat's picture
He presents the facts we all know about, but none of us saw the connection bettween them. Well worth having a look. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8B14NSIWc8

 

Tue, 09/23/2014 - 16:59 | 5249263 Quaderratic Probing
Quaderratic Probing's picture

http://libertarianpress.com/fiatmoneyinflation/

Here is what happened on fiat reserve currency first collapse.

Tue, 09/23/2014 - 12:36 | 5247844 tmosley
tmosley's picture

To be fair, they were also the first to abandon it, and then remained on the silver standard for centuries.

Tue, 09/23/2014 - 12:11 | 5247662 El Oregonian
El Oregonian's picture

It's called jumping from the "frying pan into the fire". People would have to be delusional to think China would come clean with information. Their dark hearts are just as black as the western cabal's, if not darker. (they have had a couple thousand years to become who they are).

Tue, 09/23/2014 - 12:15 | 5247738 Spitzer
Spitzer's picture

It wasn't all that long ago that the banking interests lost control of the price of gold. Thank the French. We need the French to kill the LBMA just like they killed the London Gold Pool

Tue, 09/23/2014 - 12:21 | 5247774 quasimodo
quasimodo's picture

Good one, reminds me of the joke about French tanks with 5 reverse gears and one forward.

Tue, 09/23/2014 - 14:06 | 5248333 crazybob369
crazybob369's picture

I thought that was the Italian tank.

Tue, 09/23/2014 - 14:11 | 5248376 Squiddly Diddly
Squiddly Diddly's picture

Hey, the French stock just went up in my book. A good government is one that fears the people. I'd say 3 gears forward.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-09-23/decline-fall-europe-french-farm...

Tue, 09/23/2014 - 12:51 | 5247943 Volaille de Bresse
Volaille de Bresse's picture

"It wasn't all that long ago that the banking interests lost control of the price of gold. Thank the French. We need the French to kill the LBMA just like they killed the London Gold Pool"

Whaddayamean?
Are you trying to be witty and ironic or do you have some genuine info to share?

Tue, 09/23/2014 - 17:31 | 5249364 Day_Of_The_Tentacle
Day_Of_The_Tentacle's picture

In the 1960'ies major countries participated in "The London Gold Pool" which was a pool of Gold used to control the Gold price so that the "free" market price would not show the fixed peg that the Bretton Woods Dollar was based on as a sham. The pool drained a lot of Gold from the participating countries, and more and more it was clear that the US was not going to ever control spending and debasement of the Dollar. So France decided to leave the Gold Pool. I think several other countries left as well and the pool collapsed.

By "killing" is meant that France went one step further than just leaving the pool. Up until that point in time, the access to convert dollars to gold for regular people had long been suspended. However, the central banks of the countries that were part of the Bretton Woods agreement, still had access to convert dollar-reserves to Gold at the Fed/US Treasury.

Charles de Gaulle led an initiative for France to claim Gold back for French dollar reserves  - probably along with simultanious action in several other countries - so the combined demand eventually threatened to overwhelm the Gold reserves at the Fed. This ultimately led to the closure of the Central Bank Gold window when Nixon reneged on the Bretton Woods agreement in 1971.

This led to a currency crisis of epic proportions - especially when currencies were allowed to float freely in 1973, if I remember correctly. The economic system was already starting to collaps back then, and the Gold price never looked back. The only reason the system survived was the petro dollar arrangement as well as serious central bank intervention around the high in Gold in 1980.

Personally I believe that the Gold that was pooled in 1979 by the Europeans to initiate the front-runner to the Euro (forgot the name of the fund) was deployed in the market in 1980 to halt the out-of-control Gold - because the Euro was not ready for the great switcheroo with the dollar yet.

Tue, 09/23/2014 - 12:00 | 5247677 SgtShaftoe
SgtShaftoe's picture

If they are careful and smart, this could be very disruptive.  The CME and LBMA can go eat a dick. 

Tue, 09/23/2014 - 12:33 | 5247816 poor fella
poor fella's picture

Well if it's a black rhino or Bengal tiger dick - you know the masters at the Shanghai Gold Exchange have them all stashed in the breakroom.

Along with ivory keyboards at every workstation.

Tue, 09/23/2014 - 13:45 | 5248202 DirkDiggler11
DirkDiggler11's picture

The CME and LBMA can eat a bag of dicks. Enough said.

Tue, 09/23/2014 - 12:02 | 5247686 TeamDepends
TeamDepends's picture

Ha, paper gold is much more efficient. Look, I've got 100 ounces in my back pocket!

Tue, 09/23/2014 - 12:43 | 5247891 NoTTD
NoTTD's picture

I tried that once with phizz but it pulled my pants down at awkward times.

Tue, 09/23/2014 - 13:43 | 5248187 bardot63
bardot63's picture

I have 5,000 ounces for sale at $1 an ounce.  Send me a check, and after it clears, I'll send you a certificate for your 5,000 ounces.  In fact, I can go as high as 100 tonnes if you like.

Tue, 09/23/2014 - 12:05 | 5247697 agent default
agent default's picture

Explains the prolonged smash of the last days. Some paper pushers must be getting very worried indeed.

Tue, 09/23/2014 - 13:17 | 5247758 Supernova Born
Supernova Born's picture

China correctly foresees the US Fed's ability to control gold would fail if the dollar collapses.

The Chinese know they need to be able to maintain the manipulation themselves as gold is a free man's money.

The ChiComs aren't interested in a middle class with mobile real money like gold.

Central banks possess gold to ease their manipulation of the market, not as a "foundation" for their fiat. The barrel of a gun is what backs baseless fiat, not gold.

Tue, 09/23/2014 - 14:20 | 5248427 The Duke of New...
The Duke of New York A No.1's picture

The rich in China need financial insurance too - and they arent stupid enough to put their savings into paper dervivatives for long-term financial insurance.

Tue, 09/23/2014 - 12:25 | 5247791 Slave
Slave's picture

Gold Down?

Good. I can afford more.

Tue, 09/23/2014 - 12:40 | 5247873 sandiegoman
sandiegoman's picture

that is what people were saying at $1600, at $1500, at $1300, and now at $1200? 

 

Tue, 09/23/2014 - 13:06 | 5248020 Slave
Slave's picture

Are you flipping it soon?

I am holding it for....bad times.

Tue, 09/23/2014 - 13:12 | 5248050 balanced
balanced's picture

... and it's as valid today as it was then.

Tue, 09/23/2014 - 13:12 | 5248057 sleigher
sleigher's picture

If it goes down much more I will be able to buy it rather than silver.

Tue, 09/23/2014 - 14:03 | 5248318 Quaderratic Probing
Quaderratic Probing's picture

The Hunt brothers words exactly.

Tue, 09/23/2014 - 12:13 | 5247728 Spitzer
Spitzer's picture

No banana republic price inflation in the US yet

http://freegoldobserver.blogspot.ca/2014_09_01_archive.html

Tue, 09/23/2014 - 12:13 | 5247733 Conax
Conax's picture

55 vaults for gold and 3 for silver.  Gold is stashed money and indefinitely held while silver cycles through to become useful consumer products, chemicals and pharmaceuticals.

Yet the white shoe boyz with their paper shorts set the price. A paltry $17. This will not stand forever, get it while you can.

Tue, 09/23/2014 - 12:17 | 5247752 agent default
agent default's picture

Do you ever get the feeling that someone will stand for delivery of a substantial position?  It feels like something like this is about to happen.

Tue, 09/23/2014 - 12:20 | 5247768 Conax
Conax's picture

Either that or they just like leaving the contracts there, hanging like a 'Sword of Damocles' to be used to keep certain entities towing the line.  We'll see what happens in December, that could be when the bull gets loose.

Tue, 09/23/2014 - 12:52 | 5247945 bardot63
bardot63's picture

It would start with silver, not gold.  The entire silver futures market can be had for about 5 billion or less.  But it would have to be a buyer intent on collapsing the market, not one intent on making money.  Russia and China are good prospects for crashing the silver market.  Once the silver market crashes, gold would follow within a day or two or three.  At that point, the futures and options criminality run by bullion banks would be done with.  And those bullion banks would be pushing prices up along with everyone else, because that's where the money would be. 

Tue, 09/23/2014 - 14:23 | 5248450 Quaderratic Probing
Quaderratic Probing's picture

Hold on now the bugs here keep saying the big guys have shorted to suppress gold and silver.
If Russia or China crash the market the big suppressors would buy the low and pay back the short making a huge killing.

If anyone wants to crash the market its them.

Tue, 09/23/2014 - 19:59 | 5249802 bardot63
bardot63's picture

NOT IF A RUSSIA OR A CHINA DEMANDS PHYSICAL !  That's the point.  The markets are vulnerable to a buyer who intends to bankrupt the silver/gold market.  If COMEX OR LBMA cannot deleiver physical, then the game is over.  They are out of buisness, which would be a China or a Russia's intent.  China/Russsia don't care about 5 billion bucks.  They would care about bankrupting the markets and the US, which they could easily do. We know Putin brouight this up a few years ago, and now we are pissing that guy off every day. 

Tue, 09/23/2014 - 21:29 | 5250042 Quaderratic Probing
Quaderratic Probing's picture

How much gold do they hold in futures paper in London and New York?

I have never heard of China or Russia worried about their futures paper.

Why would they own any?

If they dont own they dont get to demand.

Google "russia buys gold futures"..... No results

Wed, 09/24/2014 - 14:20 | 5252696 bardot63
bardot63's picture

Russian and China would place orders thru a schill broker firm, the same way---we now know--every central bank on Earth is buying stocks on the DOW and S&P.  They don't place their orders as Fed Reserve, or Peoples Bank of China.  They use little brokerage firms to do that for them. 

Central banks don't want you knowing what they are doing with your money.

My point is:  if China or Russia wanted to blow up the US economy overnight, it would cost just a few billion bucks to crash the silver market, which would immediately lead to a crash in the gold market.  All one has to do is DEMAND PHYSICAL instead of dollar settlement. If the COMEX or LBMA can't come up with THAT PHYSICAL METAL, the game is over.  Once the silver market is blown up, the gold market follows as every buyer bails out thanks to 'no confidence.'  Once the gold market is blown up, the 'full faith and confiidence' in the dollar is shot to hell. By the way, you wont find that by googling it either.  There are certain things you are not meant to know.

Tue, 09/23/2014 - 14:04 | 5248324 crazybob369
crazybob369's picture

Right now it's in China's best interest that all PM's remain at bargain prices. This allows them to accumulate more gold to back the yuan; more silver to develop their photovoltaic infrastructure; and more plat/pal to develop low emission vehicles to control their pollution issues. They are the one country (besides the U.S.) that have enough dollars to keep these markets in check. Once they stockpile and/or control enough of the PM production through aggressive mine acquisition, then, and only then, might they stand for delivery of these contracts and let true price discovery take place. As to when that will happen....??

Tue, 09/23/2014 - 12:17 | 5247747 dcau1
dcau1's picture

True price discovery? Crazy talk.

Tue, 09/23/2014 - 12:29 | 5247802 Harbanger
Harbanger's picture

We'll find the real price soon enough when people are forced to present the physical in order to sell it.

Tue, 09/23/2014 - 13:57 | 5248270 Quaderratic Probing
Quaderratic Probing's picture

The ones selling paper never had physical the people buying paper did not want physical. To speculate is the game. Do the same with sugar you buy 50,000 lbs at a time for Dec delivery. I dont want 50k lbs at my house in Dec I want to sell it to Hershy at more than I paid. If you turn away speculators gold will not rise as fast as if they are in. That said specs in gold involved nobody taking delivery just handover of paper. But this paper market is 250X the size of the physical.without it real gold price will be lower. And thats fine with Governments.

Tue, 09/23/2014 - 19:52 | 5249780 bardot63
bardot63's picture

<<<<But this paper market is 250X the size of the physical.without it real gold price will be lower.>>>>

You've got that backward.  Without paper gold, real gold would now be x thousands per ounce and silver would be x hundreds per ounce.  that's why the banksters/governments have  paper gold for sale, to flood the market with 'promises' to sell massive amounts of gold, to hold down prices.  Without that paper, there would only be real gold for sale, and today, that would cost several thousand per ounce.

Tue, 09/23/2014 - 21:03 | 5249918 Quaderratic Probing
Quaderratic Probing's picture

Both gold and oil lost paper buyers in 2008-2009 and both crashed. That was in the middle of the type of economic disaster people talk about here all the time. So when we had a real blow out where was the zoom to the moon physical demand and the cash or credit to buy PM. Without the future paper traders gold fell to its true physical price.

http://www.statista.com/topics/1204/gold/ 54,000 tons global gold

The big short was about 450 tons  thats point one percent

If  there was 450 buy order from China the short is cancelled out.

.1% sell does not pull a market down 50%

 

 

Tue, 09/23/2014 - 12:18 | 5247760 Latitude25
Latitude25's picture

If by law the Chinese govenment does not allow gold to leave China, how can the SGEI be "international" unless all they plan to allow to leave is paper certificates?

Tue, 09/23/2014 - 12:23 | 5247773 bardot63
bardot63's picture

China allows export, but only thru license.  China controls the flow of gold within China.  The gold sold thru SGE is not necessarily Chinese gold to start with....the SGE is the broker.   What's important here is that its physcial gold.  Paper will be sold side by side, but the question is: which one will set the price?

Tue, 09/23/2014 - 12:28 | 5247800 Latitude25
Latitude25's picture

They may allow it to leave by license but so far it has not been leaving at all.  Their 1 kilo bars are ALL staying within China.

Tue, 09/23/2014 - 12:45 | 5247904 bardot63
bardot63's picture

SGE acts as broker.  They take a cut with each transaction.  Not all the gold going thru SGE is Chinese gold.

Tue, 09/23/2014 - 12:51 | 5247942 Latitude25
Latitude25's picture

All the gold going through the SGE is cast into Chinese standard bars even if it arrives in those same bars.  Check Koos Jansen's web page.  He spells this out clearly.

Tue, 09/23/2014 - 12:55 | 5247963 bardot63
bardot63's picture

Koos is the best!

Tue, 09/23/2014 - 12:58 | 5247977 Latitude25
Latitude25's picture

Swiss refiners NEVER see SGE standard 1 kilo bars.  Gold is on a one way trip into China and this will continue indefinitley until there is true price discovery.

Tue, 09/23/2014 - 13:13 | 5248055 bardot63
bardot63's picture

Lat25, we're on the same page.  Just the fact that Chicoms are setting their own bar standards is a very big tell.   Also, SGE will be selling in much smaller amounts than the 400 oz good delivery bars offered by the paper pushers, meaning a much larger customer base and fewer middle men.  i believe the paper pushers will do their best to fuck it up, but I think ulltimately the physical gold will set the price.  Won't be today.  But it's coming.  I also believe the coming transition is why gold/silver have been smashed so hard last couple of weeks.   I believe we are seeing the last gasps of paper --- for awhile, anyway.  Don't forget...Dubai and Singapore are right behind SGE.  Singapore is strictly a physical deliver market.  Opens later this year.

Tue, 09/23/2014 - 14:06 | 5248341 Latitude25
Latitude25's picture

I hope you're right and GS and JPM do not call the shots.

Tue, 09/23/2014 - 15:41 | 5248913 bardot63
bardot63's picture

JPM and Co call the shots in the US and London.  Some pretty mean S.O.B. commies call the shots in China.  Hell, China even calls some of the shots in DC these days.  China has already shown it is perfectly willing to manhandle Western bankers.  China's best pal now is Russia.  They are not afraid of us. Except that we'll stiff them on debt. 

My belief is that the market for physical gold will call the shots.  The problem thus far is we haven't had a physcial gold market to find out.  JPM will pony up to the side that's making money, you can be assured.  And don't think for a moment that those individual criminals at JPM and Co. don't have vaults with private gold salted away.  You can bet they do.  And they'd like you to sell yours at $1200 so they can buy it. And they want you disheartened and completely beaten down so that you sell it all and walk away and never go near it again. 

Tue, 09/23/2014 - 12:34 | 5247836 NotApplicable
NotApplicable's picture

Given that Goldman Sachs is one of the participants, I know what my bet is.

Goldman Sachs and UBS are among the first international members that also include Australia & New Zealand Banking Group Ltd., HSBC Holdings Plc and Standard Chartered Plc, Shen Gang, vice-general manager at the exchange, said at a conference in Beijing last week.

http://www.moneynews.com/Markets/china-gold-precious-metals-free-trade-z...

Tue, 09/23/2014 - 12:47 | 5247888 bardot63
bardot63's picture

Consider, also, that national mints and mining companies are signing up.  They don't want low prices.  The Chicoms ultimately do not want low prices.  It's not just paper-pushing bullion banks anymore.  Consider also that several gold manipulation schemes by governments have collapsed in the past....all of them....including the Gold Agreement just a few years ago.....all collapsed thanks to a lack of physical gold for sale.  (There's lots of gold....but not all of it is for sale.) Physical has won over paper each time they've butted heads in history.  And physical will win again.  that's not opinion....that's history.

Tue, 09/23/2014 - 12:20 | 5247763 quasimodo
quasimodo's picture

Welcome to the new exchange, same as the old exchange but with a fresh coat of paint.

 

Tue, 09/23/2014 - 13:07 | 5248032 Quaderratic Probing
Quaderratic Probing's picture

Operated by a communist party.
What ours is ours what yours is every ones

You send us our gold, we send it back big time.

Tue, 09/23/2014 - 12:21 | 5247770 rlouis
rlouis's picture

I hadn't considered Aussie gold as part of the Queen's portfolio until now, but those assets, and the Canadian gold reserves, as part of the British commonwealth are probably part of the Brit plan to align with the Chinese and take down the US. 

Tue, 09/23/2014 - 12:47 | 5247909 NoTTD
NoTTD's picture

Canada has no significant gold reserves.

Tue, 09/23/2014 - 13:02 | 5248008 Quaderratic Probing
Quaderratic Probing's picture

Google "The Canadian Shield" more gold than anyone, but its wrapped in  rock.

I keep thinking a derivitive product could be created based on cost to get it out, but you never actually mine it. Buy in at recovey cost at different levels ( tranches ). Really your going to put it in a vault any way, safest vault there is crooks would have mine it to steal it.

Tue, 09/23/2014 - 12:56 | 5247969 vyeung
vyeung's picture

BOE, Canada and the commonwealth in general have little to no gold. Brits are not aligned with the Chinese. Even if they wanted to, the Chinese/Russian's and BRICS nations would not trust them.

Tue, 09/23/2014 - 14:07 | 5248347 emersonreturn
emersonreturn's picture

i agree QP, as well, vyeung, i feel the situation is somewhat more less clear.  many of the miners are owned by tptb, and the london banking elites have been somewhat shady in their alliances.  it's possible london has aligned and entrenched its interests in the new shanghi.  after all, these bankers have been in hong kong for a very long time.

Tue, 09/23/2014 - 12:29 | 5247808 RadioactiveRant
RadioactiveRant's picture

If the price is being manipulated down, the Chinese won't fight it until they're done buying. If they want more they might aswell keep their mouths shut until till Western vaults are empty. 

Tue, 09/23/2014 - 12:31 | 5247818 venturen
venturen's picture

pretty bad that we have to depend on Putin and China for honesty

Tue, 09/23/2014 - 12:46 | 5247874 Latitude25
Latitude25's picture

I know where this is going.  In many countries I have visited you see a Chinese store with bars on the windows selling crappy products at over inflated prices to dirt poor citizens and they are the only store around.  All the others have been bought up or run out of business.  Hedge accordingly.

 

Wed, 09/24/2014 - 14:09 | 5252646 bardot63
bardot63's picture

Yeah, I see that in the USA also.  It's called the Dollar Store and it sells the same Chinese crap that you've seen around the world, or that I can go see in Walmart. And those Dollar Stores and Walmarts have bars on the windowns too.

Tue, 09/23/2014 - 12:41 | 5247876 NoTTD
NoTTD's picture

I'd be alot happier with this if JPM and GS were not involved.

 

I can't believe a system involving those motherfuckers will produce anything but another rigged system - this time to further enrich the already mega rich Chinese. 

Tue, 09/23/2014 - 13:36 | 5248152 bardot63
bardot63's picture

JPM and Co. are involved, but they ain't in charge.  In fact, read some recent reports that the World Gold Council (a huge mouthpiece in the past for the manipulators) is now at odds with LBMA.  First time in history WGC is fighting LBMA.  What does WGC know that we don't?

bullion banks get away with their criminal crap in NY and London, but the Chinese actually jail and exectute financial criminals and people who just piss them off.  Start looking for more 'suicide bankers' taking dives off Shanghai skyscrapers.  I'm not saying the Chinese won't also be crooked, but they want control of the gold market, and they don't get that with paper---they get that with physical gold.  They know physical has beaten paper at every turn in history. Chicoms have $3T dollars they know is being debased quickly.  They will spend those dollars, and are spending them, as fast as they can.

If sales of physical slows down, if they want to shake loose the gold that is currently in stronger hands, they have to raise the prices.  Higher prices is what you use to solve shortages.   the Chinese want all the gold.  They understand that half the planet trusts gold over paper.  They could care less that the other half does not understand gold, because that's going to be the impoverished half.  The half that understands gold also has most of the world's oil.  The half that doesn't buys Chinese crap at Walmart and elects cowards like Barack Hussein Obama to lead them.  Game, set, match.

Tue, 09/23/2014 - 13:39 | 5248175 Quaderratic Probing
Quaderratic Probing's picture

Gods work reaches all corners.

Tue, 09/23/2014 - 12:49 | 5247929 Quaderratic Probing
Quaderratic Probing's picture

Calculated not to disturb the market

Great game were in 

Tue, 09/23/2014 - 13:19 | 5248078 ParkAveFlasher
ParkAveFlasher's picture

There is no market if you are not a government entity.  I own gold, I am not a government entity, thus I hitch a ride on a big elephant.  Where the elephant goes, so I do. 

Gold serves to counterweigh global trade.  It will settle scores when there is nothing else that can settle scores. 

Tue, 09/23/2014 - 13:19 | 5248088 LawsofPhysics
LawsofPhysics's picture

"It will settle scores when there is nothing else that can settle scores." -- Will that be before or after the shooting starts?

Tue, 09/23/2014 - 12:58 | 5247980 vyeung
vyeung's picture

Why would the Chinese let anyone know what they are really do! He's not an insider and certainly would not be pivy to such info.

Tue, 09/23/2014 - 12:58 | 5247983 Death Throes of...
Death Throes of Empire's picture

But but the Fed told me Gold isn't money!!! 

Tue, 09/23/2014 - 13:36 | 5248161 Quaderratic Probing
Quaderratic Probing's picture

If they made it money your $50 Gold coin would be worth $50. Its stamped right on it.

Tue, 09/23/2014 - 13:48 | 5248229 Supernova Born
Supernova Born's picture

Gresham's Law.

Finding many 1964 quarters in your change? They are stamped too.

Tue, 09/23/2014 - 14:09 | 5248363 Quaderratic Probing
Quaderratic Probing's picture

Render unto Ceasar they also say property of the US mint.

Tue, 09/23/2014 - 19:45 | 5249761 bardot63
bardot63's picture

Nowhere do American coins say 'property of the US Mint.'

Tue, 09/23/2014 - 20:23 | 5249864 Quaderratic Probing
Quaderratic Probing's picture

Your right they are the property of the US government. The mint makes them.

 

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5143/5556155188_e07237eca1_b.jpg

Legal tender note I can trade it I cant own it. They can change them to NOT legal tender if they want or need to.

Coinage is no different. 

Tue, 09/23/2014 - 13:00 | 5247990 Kirk2NCC1701
Kirk2NCC1701's picture

I thought that the most significant "tells" of what's probably coming, is the the text I pasted below, and which makes it clear that TPTB in the West (Redshield & Sons) have finally agreed to let China into their Inner Circle.  Which explains why the US is making no threatening statements or moves toward China - be it in their real or staged squabble with Japan, or in their relentless gold acquisitions.  The RENMINBI will be part of the SDR, but the Ruble will not.  Classic "Divide & Conquer", as well as classic "Assimilate & Control the Inevitable"* that the Aristocracy has been doing for centuries.

* "Assimilate & Control the Inevitable" is the reverse of "If you can't beat them, join them", i.e. "If you can't beat them, have them join YOU".  Classic Jedi Mind Trick by the Elite.

TEXT:

Last week, to coincide with the British government’s Renminbi announcement, David Marsh penned a commentary for the OMFIF on reserve diversification and the Chinese currency titled “A Big Chinese step for Britain: UK moves to forefront of Renminbi internationalisation”.

Marsh highlights that in 2015, the IMF will review the composition of their Special Drawing Right (SDR) monetary unit, and an important milestone for the Chinese currency will be “the possible inclusion of the Renminbi” in the SDR. According to Marsh. “there is a growing belief that the Chinese currency now conforms to a sufficient number of standards for convertibility that it will be become one of the constituent parts along with the dollar, the euro, yen and sterling.”

Comments:

1. Note that the UK (City of London), not Germany (Frankfurt) is vying to be Europe's banking center for the RMB/CNY.  With EU's, i.e. Germany's economy wrapped up with Russia's, this leaves London free to its "Usual Tricks" of keeping a virtual/fiat version of the Empire going.  This dovetails the original purpose of NATO:  "Keep the Yanks in, the damn Russians out, and the bloody Gerrys down" -- to rephrase it into common Brit-speak.

2. Note the Jedi Mind Trick again, insofar the UK, its shitty economy and dubious Pound as still being "SDR-worthy".  What?  The UK and the GBP, instead of Brasil/Real, India/Rupee and Russia/Ruble?  Really???  What a mind trick, what a charade, what a Con!

Time will tell if China, Germany and the other BRICS are falling for this Bribe/Trick, which has worked well for the Empire in the past.  If China falls for this Sucker play, then The BRICS becomes The BRIS.  BTW, in Orthodox circles in NYC, the Bris is performed by removing the cut and bleeding foreskin with the mouth, not with the hands or tools.  Research it, if you don't believe me.   The point is, the "BRICS cum BRIS" will be a bloody mess for some, a delight for others.

Tue, 09/23/2014 - 17:58 | 5249453 Day_Of_The_Tentacle
Day_Of_The_Tentacle's picture

Are you sure about Frankfurt? I am not sure, but I think I read that Frankfurt had made an agreement to become a Yuan trading hub - a good deal of time before the UK news and also before the news that Paris had made a similar agreement. Not 100% sure though. 

Tue, 09/23/2014 - 19:35 | 5249704 Muc Metals
Muc Metals's picture

 

 

Frankfurt - London - Paris RMB cleaing banks

The People's Bank of China (PBOC), the country's central bank has authorized:

BOC (Bank of China) became the RMB clearing bank in Frankfurt
CCB (China Construction Bank) became clearing bank in London
BOC (Bank of China)
became clearing bank for RMB business in Paris

Source: http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/china/2014-09/15/c_133644738.htm

So China has been distributing its cards to the gamblers for a nice game of poker.

You've got to know when to hold 'em
Know when to fold 'em
Know when to walk away
Know when to run
You never count your Euros
When you're sittin' at the table
There'll be time enough for countin'
When the dealin's done

Every European knows
That the secret to survivin'
Is knowin' what to throw away
And knowin' what to keep
'Cause every hand's a winner
And every hand's a loser
And the best that an European can hope for
Is to die in his sleep"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kn481KcjvMo

Enjoy! ;)

 

Wed, 09/24/2014 - 02:35 | 5250733 Day_Of_The_Tentacle
Day_Of_The_Tentacle's picture

Thank you. Thought I remembered something like that. I love that song too. Interesting times. 

Tue, 09/23/2014 - 13:07 | 5248024 Billy Shears
Billy Shears's picture

This stuff does get confusing. Only a day or two ago ZH posted a very negative but putatively realistic account of China's economic/market condition penned by David Stockman. This essay, in my opinion, seemed to hit the mark and was overwhelming considered accurate by the ZH community, judging by the comments posted. So why does any of this gold held by China change the facts on the ground, so to speak? Is China a basket case in its own right and, if it is (and according to Stockman's essay it is) what difference does the Gold really make and what does it mean for the price, China collapse or otherwise? Your comments/explanations are welcome.

Tue, 09/23/2014 - 13:52 | 5248247 crazybob369
crazybob369's picture

Think short versus long term. China takes a long term view (decades, centuries). They may be having current economic problems, but they are establishing their economic foundation for the next several decades. That foundation will be based on a world leading currency, backed, at least partially, by gold. My guess is that they are very close to, if not already, the nation with the world's largest unencumbered gold reserves.

Tue, 09/23/2014 - 15:26 | 5248841 bardot63
bardot63's picture

Gold matters because it's the only money governments trust.  Among all governments,, for thousands of years, it is the only money.  They don't trust each other, they don't trust each other's paper money printed up this morning, they don't trust treaties, they don't trust handshakes.   All those are promises that can/will be broken.  They trust gold because gold delivered is the promise kept.  They trust gold because they know 3 billion people (Easterners) don't trust government issued paper money.    They feel the others who do trust paper money will not matter in the end, because they will be begging from those who have the gold.  Paper money is debt.  It is not wealth.  More and more printed paper money is more and more debt, not wealth.  You are forced to use paper money at the point of a government gun.  That government and that authority will not always be around to enforce the 'value' of that paper money.  (that's not opinion, that's history).  In fact, your paper money is being defaulted on every moment of every day thru planned inflation.  Price inflation is no accident.  It was planned and brilliantly executed in 1913 by the brand new US Fed.  The aim was to quietly steal American wealth.   It worked so well most Americans don't know their wealth held in dollars is being stolen, day by day, minute by minute.  The bellyachers you'll find on this website, telling you gold is bullshit, either don't understand it or bought it at the top of the recent market, which brings us back to - they don't understand it.   Gold isn't meant to make you rich.  It's meant to protect what riches you have.  By the way, David Stockman has written many times to buy gold and hold gold. If I'm not mistaken, gold is his number one pick.  As for a China collapse--if it does, t won't be because it's buying gold.  It will be because it bought the US dollar and US bonds.

Wed, 09/24/2014 - 10:25 | 5251450 813kml
813kml's picture

A very good summary of gold's value and purpose, I like your style.

Wed, 09/24/2014 - 14:05 | 5252624 bardot63
bardot63's picture

Thanks.  Very kind of you.  I've spent half a lifetime studying gold and silver, I began buying bullion in the the 80s.  Never sold any of it. I see it as savings, not investment.  Yes, I was early to worry about a coming financial collapse, but I was right. 

Tue, 09/23/2014 - 13:07 | 5248029 TuPhat
TuPhat's picture

If Chinese fiat is going to become the worlds reserve currency, they will have to take some of the responsibility of keeping the gold price down to defend their fiat.  I would think the new exchange has nothing to do with true price discovery.

Tue, 09/23/2014 - 13:29 | 5248125 bankonzhongguo
bankonzhongguo's picture

The success of the Chinese Gold Plan will not be fully realized until the number of US aircraft carriers in the Pacific is cut in half.

That means not attacking US military superiority head on, but simply making it too expensive to forward deploy so many legions.

For that you genuinely have to attack the last 200 years of industrial nation stability.

There is a war on.

The Chinese have been fighting it since the humiliation of the Opium Wars.

The West's children are playing video games, watching porn and are morbidly obese - ready to be replaced by robots so they can eat all the cannabis brownies they want.

The "payback" will be that much sweeter when the US and European bank abandon their own countries to support a gold backed yuan.

Sadly, privileged elites in the West think that destroying the dollar is a natural extension of "engaging China" and therefor part of some master plan.  There is a general hope that manufacturing inflation in China will break the dragon before it demands its export be settled in gold.

Lord knows the Chinese have their cultural and structural problems, but honestly what Western institutions have any integrity left either.

China makes no bones about being a fascist polity. Regrettably, all those Harvard MBAs and elite technocrats seem to think that Human Liberty holds no value anymore and have truly undermined western civilization and its people.

The dollar has already been realitivized.

The mark has been made.

Countdown to ...

 

 

Tue, 09/23/2014 - 14:30 | 5248489 RaceToTheBottom
RaceToTheBottom's picture

I wish they had talked more about derivatives.  Including the WS players was viewed as a positive.  I am not so sure....  Even with a stringent "delivery" policy.  

WS players are not to be trusted, ever

Tue, 09/23/2014 - 14:34 | 5248525 Downtoolong
Downtoolong's picture

I like the idea of a gold exchange actually trading in physical gold, vs. sort of, kind of like, paper and digital representations of gold.

But, a core theme of using gold as sound money is that its supply and demand shouldn’t be controlled or manipulated by a centralized body of power. That’s why this new exchange still looks suspicious to me.

You want your gold, you can…….I mean, WE will keep your gold.

Tue, 09/23/2014 - 14:35 | 5248530 Spungo
Spungo's picture

Like all of the gold bugs have said on Greg Hunter's show, China and Russia will only pull the rug when there is a failure to deliver. Having artificially low prices is great as long as you're buying gold and silver. When there's no longer any gold to buy, that's the time to pull the rug and let the price skyrocket. You want the price to skyrocket after you've accumulated as much as possible, and not a second sooner. As long as there is gold to deliver, the price will stay low and everyone will play along. Who knows when that will end. It could be tomorrow, it could be next year, it could be 5 years from now. Owning the metals themselves is an extremely safe bet at this time, but mining companies are still a highly speculative investment because you're betting on them still existing when the low prices end.

Tue, 09/23/2014 - 14:54 | 5248651 FlowerofLife
FlowerofLife's picture

So, whatever happened to Singapore Precious Metal Exchange (SGPMX) that Jim Sinclair was touting and became Executive Chairman of last November? The one that was supposed to free gold? I never hear a thing about it. In fact, this article was posted on his website today.

I opened a trading account there last year and so far there haven’t been any trades. Not one. Oh, I take that back. The first trade was done by Jim Rogers in July 2013, you know, the Jim Rogers who was Soros’s partner.

Checked with SGPMX customer service and they suggested that I may like to buy coins in the retail shop.

Anyone know anything?

Tue, 09/23/2014 - 18:05 | 5249472 Day_Of_The_Tentacle
Day_Of_The_Tentacle's picture

Only that I read in the same article that announced that the Shanghai Exchange would open 11 days before schedule - that the Singapore Exchange had been delayed for a few weeks due to "technical problems" with the trading platform. Made me go hmmmm.

Tue, 09/23/2014 - 18:33 | 5249548 FlowerofLife
FlowerofLife's picture

There are two (or more) exchanges in Singapore. I think the one you're referring to is SGX, their bourse, and they were talking about a single contract for a gold bar.

SGPMX is a precious metals exchange only. I heard Soros was behind it, but there's no information on their website or elsewhere about who put up the money to start it. Except that it doesn't appear to have started. 

Sinclair gave a number of interviews on TV, etc. at the time and then nothing since. No mention on his website, nothing on trading forums.

Odd.

 

Wed, 09/24/2014 - 03:08 | 5250752 Day_Of_The_Tentacle
Day_Of_The_Tentacle's picture

Thank you for clarification. I didn't know there were two. I remember the buzz about JS. My best advice is that you write him a polite email and ask him. That has worked for me in the past as he replied promptly to me. Even if he does not reply directly anymore - his assistant may still know the answer.  

Tue, 09/23/2014 - 15:29 | 5248854 Clesthenes
Clesthenes's picture

“the importance of gold as… a backing to a future currency is being explicitly signaled by the Chinese authorities.
An, yes… but should we trust those who established the ALLIANCE among Mexican and Columbian drug cartels, Chinese Triads, the Red Chinese army and Chinese communist party, to establish a gold currency.

The Chinese established this ALLIANCE shortly after they fraudulently took possession of the Panama Canal; along with smuggling 150 high level Chinese crime bosses into the US.  All three of these operations are aimed at securing the $1.3 Trillions in US Treasuries owned by the Chinese central bank.  You don’t have to take my word for these assertions, I collected them from testimony given before a congressional subcommittee and the Federal Reserve.

We can probably look forward to the day when members of this ALLIANCE will staff the American Schutzstaffel, er, the American DHS, when its current staff becomes ineffective at eliminating American dissidents.  After all, the DHS is modelled after French Committees of Terror (1792-4), the Judeo-Bolshevik Cheka, and the Nazi Shutzstaffel.  With this knowledge, how else can we describe its purpose than to eliminate American dissidents?  Judeo-Bolsheviks have learned that native assassins become useless after murdering a half dozen or so of their countrymen; that’s why members of the ALLIANCE are thot necessary to secure payment of those Treasuries owned by the Chinese central bank.

It’s probably time to duplicate what American Founders did… actually, past time.

Tue, 09/23/2014 - 16:21 | 5249113 CHX
CHX's picture

Before long the West will reduce margins to zero one way or another, thus also having a cash market, to get in sync with the east where the real show is going on. They might settle all outstanding CONeX in fiat (a default), and then start anew with the remaining metals in their warehouses (if there's any left). That way they might be able to wiggle themselves out of the naked short corner. Or, they (the cartel bullion banks) are able to fork over their short contracts to the large specs so they'll be the bag holders... maybe the current sell-off is just about that. My speculative 2 ounces. 

Tue, 09/23/2014 - 17:14 | 5249315 U4 eee aaa
U4 eee aaa's picture

Will there be position limits and, more importantly, will they be enforced?

Do NOT follow this link or you will be banned from the site!