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The Ethics Of Disease Control
Submitted by Logan Albright via Mises Canada,
As the threat of the ebola virus looms large and the Center for Disease Control issues what are undoubtedly hyperbolic projections of over a million casualties to the disease by January, we owe it to ourselves as libertarians to ask a few questions about the ethics of disease control. Is it acceptable to use force to isolate a person with a contagious disease from society, and if so, under what circumstances? How far are we permitted to go in the invasion of another person’s personal liberty in order to secure a safe environment for the rest of us?
We start, as always, with the Non-Aggression Principle, which states that it is impermissible to use force against another except in self-defense against an actual or threatened attack on another’s life or property. The fundamental issue with disease control, then, becomes whether or not exposing others to a disease qualifies as such an attack.
Clearly, the intentional infection of another human being would qualify. Jamming a hypodermic needle into someone’s skin would be an attack even in the absence of any virus. So would mailing someone an envelope filled with anthrax. So would intentional sexual contact while knowingly carrying a sexually transmitted disease. In all these cases, the intent to cause harm is clear, as well as the actual harm caused, and self-defense to prevent this harm would be entirely justified.
But what about the murkier case where a person carries a disease, with no wish to spread it to anyone else, but with the knowledge that going about his day to day life may result in others becoming exposed?
Philosophers typically try to come to grips with these dilemmas by resorting to analogy. One might argue that going about with a dangerous disease is akin carrying a gun which may at any moment randomly fire. Clearly, if a person were to go about with such a gun (suppose it is strapped to his body and cannot be removed) this would constitute a threat to others, and he would be obligated to take precautions to minimize the risk. But this analogy fails because someone would have had to arrange the gun in the first place, and their agency would bear part of the responsibility. Viruses are, after all, simply very small animals that happen to be quite dangerous. There is no one at fault for the affliction, as there would be for the weapon contrived above.
Another analogy might concern a man forced to go about chained to a vicious dog. By entering into society, the man with the dog endangers others, and it would be justified to prevent him from doing so. But again, the analogy fails because keeping a dog or any pet involves an act of conscious choice. We are responsible for the actions of our pets, but not for those of wild animals. If the dog merely chose to follow the man wherever he went, it would hardly seem just to confine him to his house for the safety of others, for he has not violated anyone’s rights. It is not his fault that the wild dog has a particularly strong attraction to him.
This last analogy may come closest to the truth of the virus situation – an uncontrollable organism attaches itself to us against our will, and thereby poses a threat to others.
From a technical standpoint, the afflicted person is not, through any means of his agency, aggressing against anyone else by going out in public with a communicable disease. The disease consists of autonomous creatures who act on their own, and while they lack will in the sense that man has will, they are still capable of acting without being directed, unlike a gun or a knife, or any other traditional instrument of aggression. It is unclear how the mere action of going outside violates anyone else’s rights, or why he should bear responsibility for the organisms temporarily using his body as a host.
Does intent matter? I think it is clear that it does. To return to the sexually transmitted disease example from earlier, this was clearly a violation of a partner’s rights by taking deliberate action to cause an infection, even if the disease may technically operate on its own. Contrast this with the virus sufferer who merely wants to get on with his daily life without harming anyone. Yet in the latter case the necessity for forceful quarantine is taken as given.
Let us examine this topic from another angle. Suppose instead of a disease like ebola, against which most people have little in the way of defenses, we concern ourselves with a mostly benign virus, to which only 1 in 10,000 people have a fatal susceptibility. Now, for residents of large cities, it is difficult to go about one’s daily business without coming into contact with a great number of people, and the odds are high that at least one would exhibit this sensitivity. Does this mean that carriers of this mostly benign virus are in violation of the rights of others by going outside? Should they be compelled to stay in their homes or move to the country? And if so, should the wearers of perfumes and the eaters of peanuts to whom some percentage of citizens have serious allergies be subject to the same treatment? If we were to apply this rule as a broad principle, covering every circumstance, it would be the rare individual indeed who be permitted any sort of independent activity.
To the defenders of the quarantines, then, this question appears to be one of a degrees. It would be wrong to prevent someone with the common cold from getting on a train, but completely justified if the disease were instead smallpox. Both are contagious, and both are capable of killing, but the relative probability of death is what makes the difference. But if the unintentional spread of disease violates the Non-Aggression Principle, why should this not apply to all diseases, even if they are never lethal? After all, it is still assault to hit someone with a wiffle bat, even if there is no chance of killing them.
As one final point, I’d like to address the element of pre-crime inherent in any attempts at forcible quarantine. A person who goes about with a potentially deadly virus, yet who has not yet infected anyone, and who indeed may never do so, for infection is not certain, has violated no one’s rights. Nor is he making any active and explicit threat to do so. To use force on him, therefore, is to punish him for a crime he has not, and may never have, committed. This sort of preemptive strike is usually condemned by the advocates of liberty as unjust.
So where does all this leave us? It seems clear that a broad application of the Non-Aggression Principle to all communicable diseases would paralyze society’s function and result in the forcible and permanent internment of a great many otherwise innocent citizens not consistent with the ethics of liberty. On the other hand, permitting people to go about with extremely deadly diseases seems equally destructive, even if we cannot justify imprisoning them against their will.
I regret that I cannot provide a more definite resolution to these questions, but this remains one of those thorny areas of libertarian thought that, like the issue of children’s rights, requires more debate and discussion. At present I am inclined against the use of coercive force to implement quarantines, as I believe the potential for abuse and government overreach is simply too great to be tolerated.
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Hahahaha! This guy would bury himself in his own feces and kill his own children to save himself if he actually felt threatened. Or write this article which will ensure that people will stay away from him because he is such a complete douche.
Don't worry, folks, we have a secret weapon: OBAMACARE! The writer's concern for the civil rights of Ebola plague carriers contrasts with the USA's official policy since 2008 of arresting Americans using NSA wiretap information that prosecutors at all levels of government keep secret from the accused. A Nazi police state tactic. Meanwhile, foreigners traveling by air from an Ebola epidemic region to the USA are allowed unrestricted travel to America. The TSA routinely molests air travellers yet does nothing about plague carriers from Africa. The federal government is the real ultimate terrorist, acting on orders from the New World Order death squad tactitians.
At a time like this it is better to be like Dr. Spock of Star Trek series.
Logic, logic, logic.
Never despair.
If your mother is contaminated, do not touch it.
Unless you want to die together after a few more days.
Any better suggestions?
, - /
Ebola aint got shit on Fukishima...
Thats like Captain Cloud vs. Solar Man.
Yes....
The constitution still has value and protects me even if only as a fig leaf. Canada has space and cold, look to them when the walls close in on you.
Its never the problem that causes the most harm but the reaction.
Radio interview from earlier today with Dr. Lee Hieb, Libertarian candidate for Govenor of Iowa and former president of the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons.
http://www.whoradio.com/onair/mickelson-in-the-morning-7738/ebola-roulet...
So, ass-herpes only itch...
If someone scratches them?
Here, here. We cannot exclude REASON from the debate either.
We have Government for a REASON...and one of those REASONS is on the one hand acknowledge a danger or threat but on the other to INFORM the citizenry.
Above all else "to not magnify the danger." For example...maybe a quarantine of all of West Africa is warranted? This may sound extreme but in light of the evidence it might clearly be WARRANTED by a REASONABLE look at the evidence.
How does a healthcare professional who specifically is trained to understand the dangers of this deadly virus contract the disease? A REASONABLE response would be to ask the question "we" or especially "I" don't know.
Libertarianism has nothing to do with this...but protocols certainly do.
There is a standard operating procedure here and clearly it is not being expressed because clearly it is not being followed. One could therefore REASONABLY expect the virus to "go viral."
Not just in West Africa...but now clearly in the USA as well.
I just have one question to ask after reading this utterly puzzling article:
Who is seriously considering forced quarantine of (possible) Ebola patients in the US? Near as I can tell we've done NOTHING to contain it, nor does anyone in power seem to even want it contained. Obama says we're going to screen people flying in from affected areas and a week later this dude flys in on a commercial jet from a known Ebola hot spot and goes about his business like usual. Gets sick, goes to the hospital and they SEND HIM HOME, no ebola tests conducted, coughing and wheezing, to potentially spread the disease for another few days before returning to the hospital near death.
Belive me, when they start rounding people up and forcing them into "quarantine," Ebola will have little to do with their true motives.
What did the onion say 30 dead white people. What happens after 30million. The walls will close in, tight and hard yet your life may not change all that much besides some heat readings from the local stop and frisk.
Saudi Arabia bans Ha Pilgrims from Ebola Hot Spots.
(does this answer your question, how hard was that?)
http://www.euronews.com/2014/10/01/saudi-arabia-bans-haj-pilgrims-from-e...
I think NO DEBT is the only one who has read what this guy was saying! BECAUSE ALL HE SAID IS NOT IN THE ARTICLE. YOU SIMPLY HAVE TO LISTEN OTHERWISE.
The government is simply trying to workout its strenght over the people
They won't start the quarantine until white people get sick.
As a libertarian myself, I ask why did you impose this worthless thought exercise on my time?
Tell the guy holding a gun to your head and making you read the article to "stop it."
Problem solved.
(Dick.)
A thoughtful article...well said. But government-lovers will not be happy...
"I regret that I cannot provide a more definite resolution to these questions..." Hahahaha. Simple black and white answer guy, meet real world question.
Is this shit for fucking real?
Ebola isn't the common cold.
It's deadly, violent and it spreads fast.
Fuck this guy.
That would only increase your odds of catching the disease. Maybe just ignore him instead?
Okay, a little fucking common sense please. People bleeding out their eyes and asshole are clearly harmful to society as a whole, if not from the disease then at least from the panic. The person has to be removed from society and treated. If they resist they get shot in the head...... Just kidding...... No really a 7.62 right between the eyes.
We just need a pure free market of people who deal with people sick with Ebola.
If it is true that this guy was helping a pregnant woman with ebola get to the hospital I feel for the guy and the fact that he put himself out there. I would even go so far to spot him that he got on that plane feeling fine and it never occurred to him that he may have contracted it. The minute he fucking felt .000000001% ill he should have went to that hospital and told them he was oin close proxomity to someone with it and been quarantined. The fact that he let himself be checked out of that hospital with those symptoms makes him either the dumbest human being alive or seriously fucking evil
He did what most of us would have done. He got the fuck out of a poor country and went to where he could get real treatment. The fact that he helped a pregnant woman with Ebola before deciding to try to save himself makes it deliciously complicated to define him.
Yeah agreed. I pretty much abstain from defining him right up until he felt even a trace of illness and at that point he should have went into that hospital like a 5 alarm fucking fire. That he did not specifically inform them of his true proximity to that illness is pretty suspicious. That he walked back out of that hospital is unfuckingbelievable.
If he didn't tell them he's a douche as far as that goes. Not so sure he didn't, though. He did present to the hospital and he was sent home. What did he tell the person at the front desk about his history after he told her he had no insurance when asked? I'm guessing we'll never know.
"Hi i'm Fred, I am coughing and vomiting and my asshole just fell out. Also last week I was in west africa helping someone with an awful case of ebola and just got back." That was all Fred had to say.
What is the point of getting your ass back here to make sure you got treatement when you needed it and you know pretty damn well you have it and either you don't give the people there 100% truth? If he did tell them the truth and they tried to send him home then I fucking give up. I really do.
Same as the aids epidemic.
They infect the general population to secure funding.
Dude...this is not behavioral. These are health care professionals trying to PREVENT the spread...not a bunch of wild rock and roll stars looking for a party.
I went to the hospital a couple of years ago with an ankle sprain. Worried it was broken. It was a Sunday. I have really good insurance. The question I was asked repeatedly was whether I was seeking pain medication. I said no every time and yet it took 3 hours before a doctor saw me and said, "yeah, you've got a badly sprained ankle." I'm white and don't look like a drug addict, though I do have a ZH addiction.
I am not saying there are not issues with the system. All I am saying is this particular persons proximity to the most awful virus out there today and recent travel in that region don't compare to the fact that you and nodebt are old white guys with old white guy issues. Speaking of which I have to pee for the 17th time tonight.
Shortness of breath? Vomiting?
I'm sure you can man up here. Give it a couple days and then you can return to your job as the Elementary School gym dude.
Just don't pee on my lawn. Hey, get off my lawn!
I peed for 4 minutes,
If you're going to do your thing on my lawn and you get warm, you can go ahead and take you shirt off. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tG-AwQAvbRo
So this might be an attack then?
"And in the name of political correctness we get a breakout"?
I certainly would be ditching the Rand if that were the case.
There's your problem right there. A ZH addiction gets you sent to the back of the bus every time.
But I want to go viral too. My aim is to create an infectious giggle...not an actual disease. I want an outbreak of LAUGHTER.
Ebola is cramping my style. Sorry but..."hey, worlds most deadly disease...you need to STOP RIGHT THERE."
Because his real name is Dead Fred?
I've been wondering about that too. The charitable interpretation is that the guy was scared and didn't want to believe he had it (understandable), so he took the hospital's lack of concern at his early symptoms as being good news. That still doesn't explain why he didn't tell them about the close contact and the two family members back in Africa who were exposed with him and were presumably already sick.
I've also been wondering if he knew he probably had it, and that's why he got on the plane to the US - because he'd just tried to help someone and saw them get turned away from the hospital in Liberia because there was no room. But if that's the case, why not tell the doctors in Dallas about his recent close contact with an ebola patient?
I hope he survives this (and that no one else was infected) and is able to explain his actions. People do dumb stuff, especially when they're scared, and maybe that explains it.
So, 20 days from now I get what I have always wanted for my birthday.
Martial Law!
I went to the hospital with a kidney stone a few years ago. Doubled over in pain, they gave me some Perks and told me "it would pass." I had no choice in my discharge. Out is where I was sent. Period. Here's your keys, here's your discharge papers, now get out.
But I did have a choice in my re-admission. I went back later the same day, readmitted, saw a REAL urologist who quickly diagnosed what I already knew intuitively- the stone was too large to pass on it's own. A quick surgery later, it was out.
I suspect something similar happened to him with his first admission.
If you told them you were with someone else a week earlier in west africa with a kidney stone and ebola my guess is you would not have been discharged.
The only question thats important to the US medical system is:
Have you got insurance ?
Maybe he did, but you know doctors don't listen for shit.
and their hand writing is awful. Maybe they gave him a prescription for ebola not realizing it would not be filled.
If you want good care do not go to the ER!!
They are there to keep the gun shot to the abdomen alive until the trauma surgeon arrives.
ER docs do not do diagnosis well (typically) and are not there to do psychotherapy.
Educate youself, become a good patient and you'll find your doctor is better than you initially thought.
What if we don't have the whole story? I was reading a Brit newspaper which said he told them and the staff did not convey the information properly higher up. An interview with his sister claims he told them. You can sound like you are paranoid in the ER, wasting everyone's time, and get sent home. If they don't believe you, what are you going to do?
Or how about middle ground. He tells them (the hospital admits this in some of the news accounts) they don't tell the higher ups, he is scared about what is possible, and is relieved they send him home. They know best after all. He has done his due dilligence and, he does not want it to be true.
I don't know the truth. I do see other ways this could have gone.
Well first off if you know pretty damn well that you just came down with ebola, you don't leave that hospital. If he said he was recently in west africa that SHOULD be good enough. But just in case you may want to throw in that you helped someone with ebola while you were there. If they still try to discharge you after that my guess is you immediately go to another hospital.
At 10,000 dollars a day, the insurance companies had him thrown out.
Winner,winner,chicken dinner!
What would we guess the treatment and isolation protocol for ONE ebola patient costs? And who pays? He was only here a week. People from another country need at least 2 weeks to get Kenyan- Care.
I am being devil's advocate. I really don't know.
You're sick. You feel bad. Is your judgement the best?
I have googled it, there are more news stories coming out with it that he told them he had flown in from Liberia and they are admitting they knew and did not take it up the information chain.
I don't know either. I am assuming his asshole fell out. Some people would have stopped at coughing and sneezing but I am going to run with that one because it helps my argument.
Lol.... That's funny. If you're assuming something about somebody's asshole, does that make you the ass, or does the asshole that you are assuming about become the ass when making assumptions? I'm so confused, and going to bed. Last one out turn off the robots.
That is what we breed today, dumbassess breeding even more dumbassess.
Soon the entire population minus a few ZH'ers will be the stupidest organism on the planet.
How is that for a recipe for disaster. But dont worry, Amercan idol is coming on tv! and besides the Gov said "Dont worry, We have this under control"
Maybe this is something we need, a disease that takes out the people that do not think they needed to learn anything or to produce anything. just lay back use the EBT card and Remember "Dont worry, We have this under control"
Forest Gump " stupid is what stupid does"
.
We do - they're called "cleaners".
Abe became prime minister of Japan bleeding out the ass. So, I'm not so sure that's a disqualification any more.
Pastachios can cause that too, if you don't peel them right.
Now you tell me...
By your logic, you had better hope you don't get thr flu this winter in front of someone as trigger-happy and murderous as you. Seriously, if even a portion of you people who post on here are as eager to start killing as you Internet Boast about, there is a seriously large number of psychotic murderers posting here.
You're pretty brain dead aren't you? Don't answer, it's apparently obvious in your inability to comprehend sarcasm. Sorry I didn't put the sarc tag up for your tiny mind..... No, I'm just kidding again, I'm not really sorry.
atomicwasted.. You are a party-pooper.
Lighten up, we want to use our preps, before we die.
Now, was that sarc or not?
springfield supermatch m1a i believe icould put one in the 10 ring at 700 yds. might not hit dead center cold but i think it would most definitely cure ebola. maybe they could quarantine a 10 ft circle around the mess.
"I regret that I cannot provide a more definite resolution to these questions, but this remains one of those thorny areas of libertarian thought that, like the issue of children’s rights, requires more debate and discussion."
Ultimately this is exactly why most people prefer someone with 'authority' to make the decision for them. People want answers dammit, not more questions or indecision.
<Unless (of course) they are affected by an authoritarian 'decision'.>
Freedom loving Texans previously wanted to build a big fence around their state, and now they want glasses Perry to protect them. Because they love freedom. Hahahaha.
"Freedom loving Texans previously wanted to build a big fence around their state"
Wrong. Texans want federal laws enforced and STILL want a fence on the BORDER, they hate okies, new mexico and louisiana but they want those borders open.
Don't worry. You'll get your fence to keep you in if Ebola spreads. Glasses Perry will see to it personally from his safe bunker.
Left wing presidents historically are the ones erecting internment fences and all left wingers know that left wing Presidents were right.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3559034/
How about reading something worthwhile on this topic instead of this ridiculous diatribe which has no historical facts, no medical background, or no legal precedent on the issue.
So the Ebola virus has rights?
Organisms attack threats in order to survive.
Humans are organism.
The liberals would tell you that humans are a biological infestation on their planet.
No, progs would admit that YOU are an infestation, they are commited to your demise all the way up to the point when the they are kneeling at the edge of a ditch with a gun to their heads saying, "but I helped bring you to power" BANG!
"Useful Idiots" was the term Marx used for them.
Mr. Albright, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
I plagiarized that, BTW.
Another issue which will separate the right wing populists from the Libertarians. Good. The wingers can go hide and hope they can shoot the virus with their stockpiled SKSs.
Obama sent 3000 gun toting GI'S into kill Ebola so I thing your president is way ahead of this crisis and any right wingers that are scaring you.
Is this what you got out of this pc.?
In this instance, the ugly needs doing. whats to fucking debate? are there any liber's with a nut sack?
You know.. I consider myself to be a Libertarian, and a winger, but only because im hyper...
What's Preezy's body count up to from the 3000 troopers he sent to Ebola-ville? Has our Preezident droned anyone today? You speak of bloodlust, and cant identify the President as the head cannibal.
America is an exceptional nation.
- Exceptional in debt.
- Exceptional weapons and kill people around the world.
- Exceptional find when owners of the world with God's help and now,;
- Exceptionally FUCKED with Ebola.
hehe.
Ethics. How quaint.
WTF just happened.
.
The same as confirmed psychopaths with .308s - isolate from society.
An imminent threat to others comes in many forms.
Sadly, the most dangerous of them all are still in office.
Aids could have been promptly eliminated with APPROPRIATE, KIND, LOVING
Aids could have been easily eliminated with appropriate, loving, but complete quarantine
Same for Ebola VICTIMS.
They are VICTIMS.
BUT THEY MUST BE ISOLATED.....................
DO YOU HEAR THAT CDC.
THIS ISN'T ABOUT ETHICS AND CHOICE. IT IS ABOUT SURVIVAL OF THE RACE.
To do differently should be met with a little injection of aids virus or ebola virus to the dissenters.
And let's see how they deal with it.
GET REAL NOW. NOW. NOW.
Q
A small insertion in her ass in a prison and you die of AIDS in three years.
A guy with Ebola splashing in your face and you die in 21 days.
I know I was politically incorrect but the range of time and the type of transmission are correct.
Kkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk!
Ethics do not apply when you have no food, and you're watching your kids bleed out from their eyeballs.
That news conference was the biggest pile of bullshit I've ever seen. You're telling me that anybody would actually trust the CDC, a government agency led by a political appointee, with layers upon layers of bureaucrats and worthless Ph.D's that could not get a job in the real world?
Surely you are kidding if you think for one nanosecond that these people are competent enough to actually save anything except their own asses. And even that is questionable.
Start buying canned food, and some tyvek suits. Get some respirators or a couple of gas masks and some filters.
The time for analysis is over. If a person had contacts with 15 people, which then had contact with 14 people, etc, the number of possible combinations is 15! (factorial). That's per day.
Those idiots had the guy out for 3-4 days with a fever, and his sister's 4 kids went to their usual schools with him living at their house while having a fever with Ebola. Write off Dallas-Ft. Worth, and move on from there.
Case closed.
I'd agree with this assessment, BUT we don't yet know how easily this virus strain infects those close by. I would assume if you'd had unprotected sex with this guy, or anyone who had sex with that guy, you are well and truly fucked. I dont know how easily it is transmitted via fomites (minute quantities of mucus in the air/spittle, minute quanties of blood/fecal matter on the hands, etc. This is the critical input, and yes, the press conference was useless for insight. I'm heading to the store tomorrow to get an extra big load of all the stuff I've already stockpiled, and we're hunkering down. Air travel my spouse planned for next week will be cancelled if another case is confirmed. We left NYC for a small town and a large property. There are always people about, but they are all local and haven't been thru the airports in the past week. If 4 more cases are reported in Dallas or thru traceable contact to the Dallas guy, we'll shut everyone out and start manning an armed perimeter. I brought members of my extended family with me, and we're ready.
"Ebola in the DC US?!"
After Sandy Hoax and the Boston Smoke Bombing, I am not believing a word of any of this.
Not saying that it is not real, but at this stage, I wouldn't believe them if they told me the sky was blue.
An American, not US subject.
the swine flu hoax 3 or 4 years ago killed 58 people. the w.h.o. were calling it a pandemic. it was all over the news. the regular seasonal flu kills 30,000 a year. the center for disease control, is not the center for disease prevention. they are owned by big pharma. make your family some liposomal vitamin C
Yeah, the Swine Flu gave me a funny story to relate.
I was at a BBQ 4 months after the nonsense started. Several people, some friends, some acquaintances, some strangers, got into a discussion about it. All of them, including those that thought themselves "anti-government" were spouting the same FUD propaganda that they had picked up in the complicit media--blah, blah, blah.
I bided my time and waited for the proper moment, and when it came, and I was asked my opinion, I said, "It started in Mexico City, one of the largest, poorest, densest and filthiest cities on earth. How many have died there? If it were real, wouldn't it have run rampant there? If it were real, why would it spread in the US, and not to and in other dense and filthy cities in the world via air travel?" Nothing but quiet. Point made.
People just don't think. They feel and then think about their feelings, and then call that "thinking."
Only need to do three things to figure things out:
1) Think. Perpetually.
2) Remember everything they say is a lie. Always.
3) Remember everything they do is for money and power. No exceptions.
An American, not US subject.
"They'd sell you piss and call it spring water."
Ebola arrives in cold weather.
Very good time for propagation in the Northern Hemisphere.
The contamination will occur in closed markets and as trensportes mass environments.
Next summer will be plenty bags to bury so many people.
The Spanish Flu did it.
Entire families found dead inside the home in Rio de Janeiro - Brazil.
Lots of people buried in mass graves.
In the back of my grandmother's farm in Iguape, State of São Paulo-Brazil, when a new subdivision was implemented in earthworks found numerous skeletons.
Mass graves of the Spanish Flu that were deposited there.
There consisos reports I read.
The thing was hideous.
: - /
The simple truth here is that our nation's medical quarantine facilities would be readily/rapidly overwhelmed simply by the number of psych patients with delusions of Ebola. The coming flu season, with its multiple overlapping symptoms with the early signs of Ebola infection makes distinguishing the head cases from those who truly SHOULD be monitored impossible. If 2-4 more cases are confirmed in Dallas, there should and will be store runs, panic, and self-imposed lockdowns (by those who have a clue). This virus in the US now carries a non-zero probability of being a modern way-of-life stopper. As in no dense urban areas, no big get-togethers that include strangers (live sports), no air travel, no home delivery. GDP down more than 40%. No 'Big Government, Big Oil, Big Multinational Business, Big Anything'. Think of a return to 1890 ways of living. Rural, agrarian, isolated except for nearby (walking or bicycle distrance) interactions with small groups of people you know. And that's after the infection burns out. If this strain of Ebola spreads through minute quantities of fecal matter in the food supply or on our hands when we greet one another, or via airborne contact, we're fucked.
Forced quarantine might be attempted, but will fail. Survival would depend on the rapidity and durability of self-quarantine measures. Government will not and frankly cannot help. Strength must come from within the individual, or at most individual family. These next two weeks will hopefully pass without an apocalypse. But the Ebola case in Dallas adds a non-zero probability we're facing just that.
"our nation's medical quarantine facilities would be readily/rapidly overwhelmed simply by the number of psych patients with delusions of Ebola."
That's correct.
The Politically Correct CDC is useless. They may as well appont Obama as the head doctor.
He does have the kneepads for the job I heard...
If the guy does not arrive by ambulance at the hospital is not answered immediately.
This unfortunate "ZeroPaciente" should have waited a long time to be served in the FIRST TIME!
He came walking out and walk, is poor, came to visit his family, he LIVES THERE!
Where coughed and sneezed a lot of people who were already weakened in line at the service.
Returned home with a prescription for antibiotics BUY pharmacy or whatever.
- Where coughed and sneezed a lot of people who were already buying medicines for other diseases.
GOT TWO MORE DAYS taking antibiotics when needed ANTIVIRAL.
Does anyone here realize the incompetence of the Health System?
Does anyone here understand where the contamination may have come?
: - /
2 interesting ideas to derive out of that...
Hospital, apartment complex somewhere. As in, it was already here... Hmm...vedy, vedy, intresting.
While he was waiting did he drop ass in the rest room? Did he sprinkle when he tinkled? Did he wash his hands after he used the rest room? He potentially left drops of Ebola behind for others who were already sick to pick up. That poor girl who died from that respiratory virus did not live far from me. We now have 2 serious diseases circulating and no real action from our gov't. Self quarantine is the only real option.
More, the "mechanism" that allowed him into a major US city is still there and "vetted”
So we agree that the rapidly degrading mental health of the population is at the core of our problems?
Back in the 20's my great-aunt was quarantined w tuburculosis for months going on a year. 2/3 rds of lung removeed later, she was released into the general population. Smoked like a chimney the rest of her life. Died at 86 YO. They don't make em like her anymore.
When AIDS emerged killed in three years.
Transmission by sexual intercourse or contaminated syringe.
Ebola kills in 21 days!
Transmission by air!
Pora said that this conveys a commentary by air three weeks ago.
Said other things and called me politically incorrect.
In another comment the video that put thought in Saker on Russian Minister (which was only appear in ZH four days later).
Gee!
In what world do you live?
Suspected Ebola in Goiania - Goias State in Brazil has not been confirmed but all he said those comments are standing.
The whole family will move to the farm in case of any report.
Fuck work.
Missing a month at work is worth more than life?
Prefer life.
:-)
"Fuck work."
Agree. Better to be alive and poor than dead with a few extra dollars.
Brussels is in violation of the Western world's rights. Mr. Liberia came from Brussels to Washington D.C. Dulles and then to Dallas. Quarantine Brussels of banksers. Dude followed the same path as my FAFSA
I know I carry the Delta 32 mutation and I'm pretty much immune to the flu, never had a flu shot and never had the flu even though I have been around many people sick with it. If Ebola does get out of control, the only real hope is that some people carry a natural immunity to it. At least this version seems to be less lethal. The lethality may differ between races as well.
Nobody knows though.
I do know there are going to be at least 12 new Ebola cases that show up because of the guy in Dallas.
Ethics go out the window when near certain death is in the cards. We have seen that many times in history. We also see the fear of offending people that prevents the necessary action from being taken.
Ah, a 0.6%er. Immune to the Captain Trips.
possible case in Hawaii
http://khon2.com/2014/10/01/patient-in-isolation-in-honolulu-hospital-of...
Ebola on the loose in the US is the perfect economic storm. Schools, restaurants , bar, nightclubs, universities, sporting events, airlines, buses and subways could be closed. Supermarkets , theaters and malls will be risky as well. The entire debt tower could come troubling down making the last mortgage crisis look like a walk in the park. Someone needs to make some bold difficult decisions right now to shut this thing down, but DC is totally devoid of any real leadership. It's obvious the decision makers are getting poor advice. They don't seem to have any idea how serious the situation really, is or just what it is they are dealing with. Even now I haven't heard of travel restrictions for arrivals from Western Africa which is totally insane.
It's only insane if you're sane
Of course it would be brilliant if you were a member of a group of insane psychopathic maniacs running the world
Ebola, real or not, will be used during the preliminaries for what is in store for opening up the pit to the gates of hell. The world will snap out of their trance sooner or later. Maybe
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uU6U-8LP1DY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8OZE4N2PqM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_-rnJxo0Fo
"Ebola on the loose in the US is the perfect economic storm. Schools, restaurants , bar, nightclubs, universities, sporting events, airlines, buses and subways could be closed. Supermarkets , theaters and malls will be risky as well."
The economy would shut down. They better take it real serious right now and isolate immediately.
It's not about being politically correct with this disease.
"Border, immigration and customs staff feel unprepared to deal with people coming to the UK with possible cases of the Ebola virus, a union leader says."
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-28578596
I'm in for a gene-pool cleaning event. THAT'S a fuckin reset.
What an idiotic statement!
I hope you still feel that way when you begin coughing up blood.
yeah, and as soon as that community agrees to do something libertarians don't like, they will jumo up on their Ron Paul soap boox and start cryin' the bliues.
If you have a hard time understanding the need to quarantine people with ebola, a earth destrying virus, cause it goes against your libertarianism, that should be enough proof that your political philosophy is stupid.
"that should be enough proof that your political philosophy is stupid."
Overstated. More accurately, it would mean that the philosophy is misapplied.
If a political ideology of freedom is a death sentence to its adherents and those around them, they are doing it wrong.
One thing I will tell you.
While not appear the first killed by Ebola and confirmed dead in the USA I do not believe anything that appears in the media.
Want pictures of the guy bleeding, I want names, I want to where he came from route.
If nothing appears, it is a new 11/09, a false flag.
To hide all the shit they are doing in Ukraine and Syria.
hehe.
We have an incompetent leader (Obama).
Incompetent leaders surround themselves with incompetent advisers.
Have you seen the state of the United States?
If we had a competent President he would have appointed capable people to make sure things like Ebola NEVER came to the United States. For Christ sakes people are hopping over the White House Fence and running through the White House with knives.
Incompetent leaders hire incompetent advisers who make incompetent decisions.
The United States is collapsing and it is due to criminally negligent leadership by our President.
There are no two ways about it.
extra credit: ISIS
extra credit x 2: Russia
extra credit x 3: border (or lack thereof)
When I started following this in May I was astounded that flights were still allowed in and out.. Then I put it together.. Just like the Fukishmia disaster the powers that be wont say a word. The economic consiquences are too high and fuck us little people. They will pump all the BS about how realativly safe you are and how treatable this is.. And you are more likely to blah blah blah. Meanwhile you cant get in an ER and are bleeding out your eyes and ass. Nevermind the border being wide open they said they are checking everyone... Invest in tyvek, bayer, and N100 masks.
Go with the P100 masks. They are particulate masks the N100 will not get the particulates you are trying to avoid unhailing. If the experts are in bunny suits how well protected can we be with these simple masks?
When do the MOABs start going off over Texas? That's what I want to know.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0HpWrOq0WZw
Texas is the CDC cookie cutter theme they always use during their new threat campaign.
UNCEIF is in the final negotiations to become primary distribution for Ebola product servicing.
When pen meets paper, who gives a shit over the long term effects. Obama will claim the military ineffectiveness on bombing a airborne virus. Initial deployment Military was not successful.
Kids, the administration has turned into a full time comedic central TV reality show.
This is your government:
"There also are screening procedures in place at our border. So as individuals enter the country, they are observed by Customs and Border Patrol and others to protect the broader American public. So there’s nothing about this case that we know so far that would indicate any weakness or any flaws in that system right now."
That is your government on acid.
Dude, I saw a video with Osama Bin Laden coming across that border 3 weeks ago. And, and M'Fers I just read about a psychopath claiming the sky was falling running through the White House while weilding a saber not more than a week ago.
Ebola in US: Are Quarantines and Vaccines Next?
http://winteractionables.com/?p=15143
Poor article. Intent matters not, almost ever. I don't care if you set out to destroy the world, if you make it better I will praise you. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. If you set out to save the world yet destroy it I will do my best to make sure you wish you weren't born. I don't care your intent, if you attack me I will defend myself, I don't care what good you think you are doing. What does that mean? If I am able to detect (without violating your rights) a true threat from you, it does not matter your ignorance or intent, I am justified in defending myself. If I am not smart enough to detect the threat, so be it. If you destroy somebody without factual cause (e.g. most asians have a global pandemic disease., you kill them because they are asian (not because of the disease)) then yes my logic dictates me destroying you as well because you are evil. True Libertarianism is pure logic. This author (to me) seems to assume most everyone is decent deep inside and needs to figure things out. I say this with more seriousness than you can probably imagine... intentions mean fuck-all, actions are what speak and deserve a response.
Redux, in plain English this means you don't have the right to do shit to anybody because of what 'might' be. If you scientifically confirm someone has this disease you may defend yourself from the proven threat. Of course most decent folk would tell them and give them an opportunity to isolate themselves and possibly heal. If you show up on my Libertarian doorstep demanding (demanding=penalty without complying) anything that is not truly yours (including the status of my health) I will bury you in the hillside.
But if you ever wish to leave the doorstep of your little castle into society, you will have to warrantee, or at least assure others, that your doing so will not harm them. So, if you've been around someone from Liberia recently, no one else will want you stepping off your doorstep onto on the common street without assurance of the status of your health. Of course the "penalty" is that you and yours stay in your castle and order pizza with a credit card and ammonia-sanitized tip.
At some point reasonable suspicion trumps liberty; if witness(es) saw you kissing someone with Ebola (or plague) goodbye, yes, you "might" be a threat.
There will be endless time to debate the justification for taking whatever pragmatic steps assure survival of civilization.
Without people to support a level of continuous maintenance of nuclear reactors, we are *ALL* dead. And that is a specialty of very few individuals who themselves need a great deal of material inputs. It wouldn't take much to deny such a fragile construct a critical resource.
I am a libertarian (small "L"), and believe the conclusion of this article is wrong. While this is a difficult topic to discuss, the fact is, the Ebola sufferer, knowing they have a severe and contagious disease, should be able to be quarantined by law. Perhaps not forcefully at first, but forcefully if they do not comply. This is much similar to drunk driving, even though I know some drunk driving laws are clearly more strict (in terms of blood/alcohol levels) than is warranted for safe driving. Contrary to most propaganda on the subject, drunk drivers do not go on the road intending to kill or injure themselves or anyone else. Yet, you could say that being truly drunk does clearly endanger others when that person decides to drive on public roadways. This is no different than someone with Ebola, in that I highly doubt they want to infect others, but they knowingly endanger others as it is clear that Ebola is both highly contagious and highly deadly.
In the article's example of the wild dog following around someone, it is clear that this argument falls on its face. The wild, dangerous dog doesn't need to follow around the person in order to attack someone. Viruses do need a host/carrier. If the host/carrier is aware that they are carrying it and is aware that it poses a significant danger to others, yet disregards the threat they pose and comes into contact with others anyway, society does have a right of self-defense to put that person into quarantine against their will. I think the key is that they should first be given the chance to voluntarily, and non-forcefully, quarantine themselves, with force only being used in the event they decide to endanger the public.
The Question now is whether Libertarianism or Ebola is the more dangerous disease. Fortunately, Ebola is somewhat curable and would be more so if the preliminary research had continued to be funded as a social responsibility without consideration of possible "Free Market" profit margins.
Libertarianism may also be somewhat curable but fortunately in many cases it goes into remission at the onset of rational adulthood. Unfortunately full rational adulthood seems to have also gone into remission in the technological West and the disease as always is highly contagious in the adolescent and post adolescent population.
Therefore, it’s high time we quarantine Libertarians, and get the main disease vector, Ayn Rand out of the schools.
Socialists and Communists are somewhat curable, in that we can ship them off to their own island where they can create a utopia of 'all for one' programs and worship at the shrine of the State.
Quite true.
Capitalists however are not treatable, because capitalism insists on infecting (and destroying) every community on the planet, like a parasite with no regard for its host.
As a Libertarian I see no problem here. If people believe he is a danger, they have choices and the patient has choices. The Patient can choose to be quarentined and treated by those willing, or he will be killed by people who feel he is a threat to their life. If no one wants to treat him he can always kill himself or be killed. Seems harsh but people do have the right to protect themselves if they are in danger and this is danger.
http://thebookgallery2014.blogspot.com/2014/08/beyond-ebola-preparation....
I think the proper term for someone that engages in this kind of absolutist, black/white thinking is "nitwit."
Don't go in for any professions that require actual thinking. You won't do well.
Thankfully, people with more common sense than you are actually running the country, and will quarantine as necessary to prevent or minimize a deadly epidemic.
The individual is not always supreme. This puerile individualism is exactly why people with common sense understand that plenty of libertarians have their heads up their asses. Most libertarians wouldn't survive ten minutes in the world that they think they want to create.
There is no ebola. There is no money. Just don't get a flu shot. Oh, and watch out for "executive orders" they're the real pandemic.
Double post. Double think. Keep bouncing.
Being infectious can infringe upon the self ownership values of libertarians.
But what about the murkier case where a person carries a disease, with no wish to spread it to anyone else, but with the knowledge that going about his day to day life may result in others becoming exposed?
There is nothing murky here. If you think you MIGHT have the disease and you expose yourself to someone else that should be considered attempted murder.
Philosophers typically try to come to grips with these dilemmas by resorting to analogy. One might argue that going about with a dangerous disease is akin carrying a gun which may at any moment randomly fire. Clearly, if a person were to go about with such a gun (suppose it is strapped to his body and cannot be removed) this would constitute a threat to others, and he would be obligated to take precautions to minimize the risk. But this analogy fails because someone would have had to arrange the gun in the first place, and their agency would bear part of the responsibility. Viruses are, after all, simply very small animals that happen to be quite dangerous. There is no one at fault for the affliction, as there would be for the weapon contrived above.
This analogy fails on many levels. The virus is now part of you body. How it intruded there is irrelevant. If you knew that a part of your body - your thumb – with out your control, could randomly punch someone in the esophagus and kill them, the mere act of being in someone else’s company should be seen as a clear & imminent danger to that other person.
Another analogy might concern a man forced to go about chained to a vicious dog. By entering into society, the man with the dog endangers others, and it would be justified to prevent him from doing so. But again, the analogy fails because keeping a dog or any pet involves an act of conscious choice. We are responsible for the actions of our pets, but not for those of wild animals. If the dog merely chose to follow the man wherever he went, it would hardly seem just to confine him to his house for the safety of others, for he has not violated anyone’s rights. It is not his fault that the wild dog has a particularly strong attraction to him.
This is wrong again. I if knew that a vicious animal follows me where ever I go, thought no action of my own, I would be grossly negligent to allow myself to expose the beast to others, regardless if I took no action encouraging the animal.
From a technical standpoint, the afflicted person is not, through any means of his agency, aggressing against anyone else by going out in public with a communicable disease. The disease consists of autonomous creatures who act on their own, and while they lack will in the sense that man has will, they are still capable of acting without being directed, unlike a gun or a knife, or any other traditional instrument of aggression. It is unclear how the mere action of going outside violates anyone else’s rights, or why he should bear responsibility for the organisms temporarily using his body as a host.
Wrong again. The virus in & of itself is NOT dangerous. It is dangerous in the context of a human host. It is not temporarily using the body as a host. It is now part of that body until that body dies. It is therefore incumbent upon the host to auto-sequester for the good of society.
Does intent matter? I think it is clear that it does. To return to the sexually transmitted disease example from earlier, this was clearly a violation of a partner’s rights by taking deliberate action to cause an infection, even if the disease may technically operate on its own. Contrast this with the virus sufferer who merely wants to get on with his daily life without harming anyone. Yet in the latter case the necessity for forceful quarantine is taken as given.
If you have allowed yourself to become infected with a 100% behavior related disease your intent matters not. If you do not self quarantine you should be considered sociopathic and if refusing to isolate be immediately terminated with the greatest prejudice.
Let us examine this topic from another angle. Suppose instead of a disease like ebola, against which most people have little in the way of defenses, we concern ourselves with a mostly benign virus, to which only 1 in 10,000 people have a fatal susceptibility. Now, for residents of large cities, it is difficult to go about one’s daily business without coming into contact with a great number of people, and the odds are high that at least one would exhibit this sensitivity. Does this mean that carriers of this mostly benign virus are in violation of the rights of others by going outside? Should they be compelled to stay in their homes or move to the country? And if so, should the wearers of perfumes and the eaters of peanuts to whom some percentage of citizens have serious allergies be subject to the same treatment? If we were to apply this rule as a broad principle, covering every circumstance, it would be the rare individual indeed who be permitted any sort of independent activity.
Lethality is the essence of the discussion. The punishment for a simple assault – hitting someone in the face with your fist, who is your own gender, age & size, is magnitudes less than what would be wrought if a young adult stabbed in the chest an elderly, frail pensioner. Thusly, equating a common cold with high communicably but low mortality or morbidity to an infection slightly less communicable but scads more deadly is intellectual malfeasance.
Wearing perfume into the general public is a act any reasonable person would do, contradistinctively, a nurse working in a respitory emergency room would be in breach of duty.
So where does all this leave us? It seems clear that a broad application of the Non-Aggression Principle to all communicable diseases would paralyze society’s function and result in the forcible and permanent internment of a great many otherwise innocent citizens not consistent with the ethics of liberty. On the other hand, permitting people to go about with extremely deadly diseases seems equally destructive, even if we cannot justify imprisoning them against their will.
Wrong again. If, in public, I observed someone, whom both I and a reasonable man (given my training experience & observation) strongly suspected having Ebola, continued to approach me, after being told to stay away, I would feel FULLY justified neutralizing that threat, immediately.