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France Tells Brussels 'Bullies' "Non Non Non", Won't Change Treaty-Busting Budget
Having noted last week of the rising tensions between the French (pushing forward with plans for a budget deficit that far exceeds EU Treaty rules) and Germany (letting a Frenchman run EU's finances is "an unwise personnel decision") and Brussels (planning to reject the French budget); it seems the French are unimpressed. As les Echos reports, French finance minister Michel Sapin has proclaimed he won't change the budget, arguing that the EU commission has no power to reject a budget as sovereignty belongs to France's parliament... fighting words for a 'union'! In addition, the EU is now planning to reject Italy's budget, due to its "serious violation" of EU rules.
Italy is now up for rejection:
- ITALY BUDGET PLANS LIKELY TO BE SEEN AS "SERIOUS VIOLATION" OF EU RULES AND REJECTED BY COMMISSION - EU SOURCE
As France previously did, but is now fighting back (as Bloomberg reports),
The EU Commission has no power to reject a budget as sovereignty belongs to France’s parliament, Finance Minister Michel Sapin says in an interview with Les Echos.
France will give nature and calender of planned structural reforms very soon, Sapin says in the interview.
* * *
Which seems odd - let's see the Greeks pull the same game...
Via Les Echos,
The Commission, I believe, has absolutely no power to "reject", "return" or "censor" a budget, as I have read it.
Here as elsewhere, sovereignty rests with Parliament French. About the bullies I hear often uttered anonymously, can only harm Europe ...
France is a responsible country, we can not have the same currency without concern for consistency of budgetary developments in each of our countries.
The euro zone is in a situation of very low growth and very low inflation. With a clear risk of " Japanese-style scenario ."
* * *
The bottom line is that France is arguing that it will run bigger deficits now to ensure better growth in the future and that the EU commission needs to comprehend that and let them off... once more, hope trumps reality - for now we wait to see just how quickly Brussels folds.
Or summing it up in two words, it appears France is telling the EU to "F##k Off" - we'll do what we like! Having learned the lessons of the Greeks as beggars can be choosers...
UPDATE: and it seems the Italians will be saying the same soon.
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Staged as the responsible versus the irresponsible, when in reality it is the Banks versus Individuals and Families.
More explicitly, staged on November 1, 1993 in Maastricht, Netherlands, knowing this outcome was totally unavoidable without both a political and economic union.
Will this end up the only battle France has won in over 100 years, or will they just drop their rubber guns and surrender, as usual?
This is actually a bit of a tough call.
You're looking at this wrong. It isn't just the French government vs. Brussels.. It is France, Germany, Italy and others. This is politicians squabbling over pieces of a shrinking pie with Brussels on one side of the banquet table, and National governments on the other.
Fragmentation would be a big victory for Russian energy policy but would rein in out-of-control bureaucrats in Brussels. Hard to say what is best for the average individual European in the long-run, but if history is a guide, fragmentation would most likely be more advantageous, provided it leads to a better process, not another Hitler.
"You're looking at this wrong."
Boy, if I had nickel for every time somebody's said that to me! Somehow through all of my stupidity, I have prospered. I must be lucky.
(Actually, I agree with you.)
Judging from your other comments you'd be better off taking the nickel in the event of being right. You're one of my favorite posters because you normally cut through the BS and hit the nail square on the head.
Rules? We don't need no stinking rules!
Exceptionalism means there are no rules...
I concur.
fragmentation is the restart of local control - what is bad about locals controlling their destiny - i understand minorities suffer like blacks but the alternative today is complete give up of constitiutional rights everywhere
centralization reverts to big money as control - not people - big companies have harder time at local level controling regulations and laws
"Fragmentation" suggests that centralization is the default state. Not true; conflicts with evolution. "Government" is an abstraction. It should be the general agreement of individuals to common principles. Not dictatorship.
This is akin to WS & Friends crashing the 'markets" every time discussion of Tapering WS Welfare (QEn) occurs.
Just a gentle reminder that they have power and will use it.
Don't forget about the IMPORTANT relationship between Italy, Germany and France. Surly it will convince their respective populations to part with more of their hard earned cash and give it to the project. Because, European Unity is worth it AMIRITE!?
In all seriousness though -- the EMZ train is reaching the end of the line. Even if they do depositor confiscation -- the popular rebellion would be so great -- it wouldn't survive much longer without a heavy hand putting down all the rebellions sprining up all over the place.
I mean, after all, proud European Union citizens should be honored to have the spoils of their labor confsicated to support this grand expirment and their European bretheren. /sarc (on this last part)
Which country starts burning buildings down next,
1) the French
2) the Greeks again
3) the Italians
4) the Spanish
5) Other
*Saves everything in AG, AU and CHF -- pulls out all cash for the month after payday with a minimal reserve.
5) Other
Unless it's MENA youth in France going on another Torch & Riot concert.
6) All of the above?
(Assuming a sudden severance of government benefits and pensions.)
1) The French again..
Fixed. Some French have already started:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-29294096
"Street parties" and "BBQs" will most likely be popular in coming years.
I think all of the above is the correct answer. When one goes, it will take out everyone else with them.
New Olympic sport -- who riots the best .. the French or the Greeks?
On an aside, what happens to Ukraine when the West's bankruptcy spills over into Russia -- and Putin needs an enemy or to re-establish much of the old USSR to retain his power.
Interesting times we live in.
But anyway, the fact the EU commission insists on budget restrictions for France and Italy now in times of general depression and growing social tension sounds suspicious to me. Either Brussels has lost any remaining sense of logical consequences when pursuing such a desperate agenda or there are invisible forces inside deliberately conducting the EU to the end.
This way or another, forcing France and Italy to join together against Brussels is the best way how to dissolve the EU.
Thinking the same. If france stands up they still lose though. Could unleash actions and reactions that lead to the demise of the EU. Every EU country will justify their exceptions to the Treaty.
Gonna go boom.
I sent this guy 10€.
From Best of Craigslist
" I need a sword
I need a sword. Something large, of fine craftsmanship and sturdy. Must be able to cleave a moose in half with one to two blows. This is extremely important. I need to arm for my time machine and i cant bring a gun to where im going, i dont want to give myself away as a time traveler and i have to fit in. I would prefer something from the renaissance period, as i am trying to save king louis VIII from bring executed. If all goes as planned, the present will change and i hope you all enjoy not having france a part of this planet anymore. Youre welcome in advance.
This is completely serious and is not a joke."
Plaguerized this illuminati scribbler
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_(novel)
@NoDebt
Again
Since France refused to go to Iraq, American warmongers and neo-cons made French army look like cowards – as a punishment.
But History has proved the French were right, and that the WMD were only a dirty trick to serve as a pretext.
Nevertheless, the hate of American warmongers against France remains still there, well alive, even in ZH. This stale hate still shows through "innocent good jokes" about the “surrender monkeys” and their white flag …
As for the rest, the French can be proud of their Military History which remains despite these stupid jokes the best military record in Europe - even in the last 100 years :
1) For instance at Verdun in 1916, the French pushed the Germans back decisively in one of the bloodiest battles of all time. During this war the French won other victories and they suffered about 5.7 million casualties ... and they didn't surrender !
2) Despite 1940's defeat, where in just a month and a half of fighting the French army counted 260000 wounded and 108000 dead in its ranks - this is 4 times more than the losses of the American army in three months of battles in Normandy (21000) - French free forces fought with the allies until the end of war. 100,000 French troops participated with success (under General Juin) to the 1943 Italian campaign, 6 Free French divisions did contribute hugely and effectively to the Provence landing (under General De Lattre de Tassigny) , and held their ground in Alsace during the battle of the Bulge, disobeying Eisenhower’s orders to retreat.
At that time, the Allied Forces on the west front consisted in:US: 45 divisions; UK: 12 divisions: France: 9 divisions; Poland Free Forces: 1 division. In total, not a lot compared with the Soviet forces on the east side, the real winners of WWII.
3) Until now, various NATO and UNO missions in the world (Ivory Coast, Lebanon, Afghanistan, Haiti, DR Congo, Lybia, Mali...)
Sounds like the Froggies are missing their Franc!!
and I always thought Germany would be the first to go retro!
Government budget deficit
http://countryeconomy.com/deficit
Ah oui, le planning du central...
That.
Europe needs its own Lincoln/Napolean to make war across the Continent to preserve the Union.
/s
You need a large country, with an industrial base to go banktrupt, destroy its citizens wealth, and then blame other people. I can only think of 2 that could possibly fit the bill, and one is war weary and would rather sit back, build lots of stuff and get really rich -- the other isn't so good at fighting.
It will be interesting to see how this whole thing comes apart. I do think it will end up with a Germany/Russia partnership -- and Germany making all of Europe more of its bitch -- but this time without the Wehrmacht.
exactly, such a margin call is really unpossible...
All those jokes circulating about French and Italian tanks only having one gear (reverse). If that's the case then I say replace the bureaucrats with French mechanical engineers, because their budgets seem to lack one.
As long as they don't reform their economy then it won't lead to anything.
You mean further game the definition of GDP?
EU contries can now add illegal prostitution and drugs trade to their GDP. But I meant raising retirement age, making it easier to start companies, less central control, etc.
I side with France. Fuck the EU. If France wants inflation and a garbage currency, they should be able to make it happen.
It was France and Germany who started this rot. And then the rest naturally felt "we can too". And on that path Euroland is still treadding
There was I thinking sovereignty belonged to the euro.....
Talk is cheap unless they bring back the Franc.
this is indeed well possible. even a franc together with Italy. in fact, they both have the gold reserves to seriously contemplate to float a new currency, perhaps even gold-backed, specifically aimed to Eastern tastes
the Banque and the Banca of France & Italia are, after all, both national banks perfectly able to launch any kind of modern or oldfashioned currency. They both have capabilities matching the Bank of England or of Denmark, or of Poland, or even the NY-FED. And they could launch matching new sovereign bond constructions, or authorize new national banking systems legally outside of the "eurozone". Plenty of possibilities, technically, if the political will and vision is there
but you are all missing the forest with all those tree discussions: EuroGlut
if the eurozone is really, really going to be the saver, pardon, damn under-consumer* for the next years, to match the dear and good and cherished over-consumer on the other side of the pond...
then some of the current gameplans... have to be revised
(*) remember... China accumulating two cool trillion USTs?
I think the French, Italian, Spanish and Portuguise could do quite well together.
Belgium -- if it survives -- could come too.
I agree, the Latin countries should stick together. The Germanic countries should stick together. And the Slavic countries should form their own block, just like in the days of the Roman Empire.
I have to agree with that Ambrosse fellow
irish internal devaluation and loss of internal purchasing power would be absurd for a country of France or Italys scale.
They have just announced a 2 Billion euro social housing programme in the irish budget 2015 when houses are coming out of irish ears !!!!!!
There is 8,000 empty houses in Cork city (not suburbs) in a city with a housing stock of 40 something thousand.
The malinvestment in a typical euro conduit economy is of a epic scale.
Loss of purchasing power in Ireland has become some sort of worldwide joke now.
We may see a ending when the laughter stops but I fear we irish are so damn funny it may not stop for a while yet.
Dork, during the credit bubble that was your housing bubble, your country did not esport even one single steak. Have a look at Angus Beef production and export numbers. I'm sure you'll see a light
About that light... incoming freight train.
@Ghordius. Ireland is the most absurd mercantile country on the planet.
What are you talking about ?
I don't believe in various bank scarce money schemes which force hinterlands to export in search of scarce money - thus destroying local redundancy.
You have not a clue what you are talking about.
recent irish national account data show external tourists (incoming tourists are exports ) eating all of the surplus domestic consumption. !!!!!
Don't let those pesky facts get in the way of European Unity.
Ghordius, this goes back to our original discussion:
You were for "confederate" Europe. And I was for "federal" Europe. All for one one for all.
But it seems that will not be and USA's geopolitics will now make it more difficult.
So, what happens next?
Will Eurozone divorce and go back to pre-Maastricht common market?
It looks like that the geo-politics of war and finance are now making tectonic shifts even more vital.
What the Euro zone has to do is to go "de facto" federal or else we will be back to the thirty year wars and all bets are off!
Tipping times. We need a Schroeder to replace Mutti !
She is clueless! Has been since the beginning. Sorry to say this. Not that Sarko/Hollande have been any better for France!
And Draghi has no mandate from Euro nation states, except do what Pax Americana says which is what the banks want!
Looks like a long hard road for the next few generations !
falak, what do europeans do when playing football and need time? they... pass the ball
Americans have cultural difficulties with this kind of game, but after all that's why they play the game differently, isn't it?
I expect lots of: "and now Marine has picked the ball, and... yes, she passed it to Scotland! yes, the Unicorn is preparing to shoot, yessss..... and he passes to Catalonya.... oh, Cat promised it would score a goal if it could, and... no, it's only going to be an "assist" to the ... a naked speculator has entered the field... police removing him and the French Secret Service is rummaging in his pockets to see who sent him .... now the ball is again in the game, oh, the German High Court has passed the ball to the European Court of Justice... which.... which is going to keep the ball for one year, and so now Draghi reenters the field with a... is it true?... a gun, ladies and gentleman! a gun! never seen a market-speculation-treathening weapon like this, on this european field! It's huge! It has a new cool trillion magazine! One more then before! Ladies and Gentlemen, Draghi is holding his gun to the bond speculator and... I really don't know if this is still football... he says it: "do you feel lucky, punk?". ladies and gentleman, the bond market participant looks sick... but what is there? omg, the stock market is running? which direction? oh..."
I repeat, if EuroGlut is in the cards, plenty of things will change... while plenty of others not
Annual Percentage Changes in the Main Constituents of consumption of Table 14 (constant market prices)
2012 -13
Food :+ 1.9 %
Non alc beverages : – 3%
Alc beverages : -5.6 %
Tabacco : -14.4 %
Clothing and footwear : + .03%
household equipment and operation ; : – .08%
transport & communication : -1.4%
Recreation , entertainment and eduacation : -2.8 %
Expenditure outside the state : -1.3%
Expenditure by non residents : +10.8 % !!!!!!!!!!!!
Just to add the Irish population continues to rise , this is therefore not a artifact of a declining population.
This is a massive loss of purchasing power per capita.
That is the Thirty years war scenario for those out of jobs !
Well at least its not Syrac, yet...its not Donietsk.
Ghordius and Pema, I think the EU as it was intended : to have everyones shop running well instead of being jealeous of the neighbours shop, no longer is valid. And it is very well possible it will be the Germans stepping out and causing the whole house to go down. The Germans already understand their shop will do better by associating BRICS and Eurasian unions.
Full Federal is against many EMZ member state constitutions. How do you do it, without offending the notions of democracy even more than the EU, EMZ, international finance cartel, et al already has?
You have to do it like it was proposed by Schroeder to Chirac in Nice Euro meeting in 1999.
Schroeder said: Lets go federal, by harmonising our fiscal policies and our price/productivity models to take this Maastricht monetary model beyond Delors's work and more integrated; If France and Germany do it the others in core Europe will follow; aka the original 6 plus new hangers on.
Chirc said "NO" I don't want integration we have now moved back to 35 hour weeks and all I want from EU is farmer's subsidies. So Schroeder did his own thing. France woke up in 2004 and tried to do an 11th hour federal constitution under Giscard's leadership. It back fired, as by then there were 12+ countries, not 6.
And under NWO "outsourcing" and Chindia Factory, all to please the Oligarchy model, the Euro model then "exploded" from 2005 onwards under cheap labour pressure.
So its a missed opportunity. The only way to do this is to start from the core, aka Germany/France outwards on a common platform basis. The current EU structure can allow this. But the core has to move in the right direction.
On current momentum we are moving to a two tier EU, North and South.
Ooooor, we just do it the German way. Face it, that will happen anyway. If the Germans are not that stupid again to allow the others to wage war against them again the Germans will be calling the shots in Europe. That their natural role as the biggest country in the center of the continent.
Wolferl touched on it, but a full Federalization would require one of three things --
1) All of the Europe becomes more German. While this is the better economic model, what about the cultural differences between the various states (and yes they are there) which are not just inconsistent with the German model, but completely incompatiable with it?
2) Germans become very French. Again, culturally incompatible, but this would end up with Germany looking French/Italy and this would be essentially economic suicide, and it would make the entire block a large France, instead of a large Germany.
3) A combination of the two, where the French become more German, while the Germans give up ground to the Japanese and South Koreans, who would love their largest competitor to sacrifice itself on the alter of some stupid political project.
Two EUR would work great. This one currency will never work.
And this is the group my former countrymen want to join? Nyet. This is too much really. EU having problems and a country whom is riddled with problems and needs major rework will be too much for EU budget.
Why bother sticking together when no one can agree with each other? I think EU concept was doomed from the start.
Nyet, eh? You prefer a more... authoritarian approach, eh? Thanks, but we prefer to have a butler service in Brussels, instead of a dictatorship
And we prefer to have discussions which lead to consensus instead of having a top-down order. Just look how you are talking about the EU budget, which is the least important one on the whole continent. Note that the discussion is about the French and Italian national budgets, which are way more important
good for France.
Next item on the "Brussels is not the boss of moi agenda..."
close the fucking borders already. Good things are not going to happen the more "disenfranchised" Africans, Arabs, and Asians live around Paris.
When is an EU not a Union?
When it's members fart in the general direction of Brussels.
I can't wait to hear Nigel's address to EU Parliament.
Let's all join the EU as there are NO RULES there that are ENFORCED. VIVE LE EU!
it is a club of sovereigns. there is no enforcer, and there should be no such thing. a bouncer is for a locale of ill repute
What about the EMZ. Tell us about those enforcement procedures.
well, you see, the Godfather is Mario, Mario Draghi. He Capo Di Tutti Capi. Then we have the soldiers, we call them governors... They gov' the tank division with the EUR sign painted on them, all stationed around where you live
when the CdtC calls, we jump on our tanks and invade Rome and Paris, and shoot all socialists. this makes the liberals cower in fear and the conservative all moody and serious but actually relieved.
and then Ghordius, respendent in his EUR-SchutzStaffel uniform with silver skulls and golden crossed bones receives his medal of monetary honour, the one with two simbols on it: /S I repeat: a / like a slash and a big S
seriously, how do you enforce your will on the Fifth Republic of France? they have nukes, remember?
"seriously, how do you enforce your will on the Fifth Republic of France? they have nukes, remember?"
How do you enforce your will with nukes ?
in other terms: diplomacy. plenty of diplomacy. plenty of diplomacy. and then moar diplomacy. we are a bunch of grown-up sovereigns, aren't we? that's talking softly. like when you want to be... I don't know, what's the word... ah, yes, "diplomatic about it"
What happens when diplomacy fails to convince a MAF population?
Oh, and if this population leaves the EMZ -- it wipes out the entire EMZ.
If you were Junker, and/or the President of that country -- what would you do?
Haus, now that this thread has become cold and lost in the meanders of the internets: you were making fun out of my past statement about France, Italy and Germany. Fine, no prob for me. But I mean it: what you are witnessing is a big discussion among The Three, which do form the core of all european consensus
don't listen to what they say, look what they do. in the case of France and Italy, they are creeping towards balanced budgets. slowly and steadily. and that's where the fight is
Eben though you Are wrong (France and Itslys primary deficit is expanding from its 2013 lows of still over 3%)
Lets assume you are correct -- and both are working towards a balanced budget. Who steps in and fills in the deficit between now and then? What happens to these deficits when their recessions (triple and quadruple, respectively) hit again and the state increases spending.
There is a fundamental imbalance within the currency. You know this. Why do you avoid such simple facts which are material to the case at hand?
lol, for someone that is a number cruncher you are stingy with numbers
who steps in? one word: repatriation. it's happening
btw, who steps in for the US balance of payments deficit? another word: EuroGlut
the "fundamental imbalance" you are talking about? let's see... what would happen if gold was the currency?
no common debt = fail. Just a matter of time before cultural, regional, political and other differences become irreconcilable differences.
thanks, but no, thanks
lol.
Doomed from the outset though. Reminds me of the saying about the road to hell being paved with good intentions.
How is what he said wrong?
It is completely correct. If the Spanish and Germans shared a similar monetary culture -- many of these problems we have today wouldn't exist.
how can what I said be wrong or correct? I just stated a political preference: EuroBonds, thanks, but no, thanks. then without national bonds, we have no national armed forces, eventually
Ghordius: That is a disingenuous statement dear fellow.
The EU Commission has taken - or threatened to take - legal action against a number of member states for violation of EU rules/treaties.
Truth is that France has been in the forefront of imposing/enforcing EU rules but believes it is above said rules itself.
Mweh(! Typical French.
legal action? very relative, for a sovereign. it's club rules we are talking about. Like in the 'toff's gentlemen clubs. Very, very relative. This has not changed. Squabbles, that is what it is
In year 2000->, when the British govt introduced upper limits on importation of cigarettes/booze in blatant defiance of the Single Market Treaty, the EU ordered them to stop and eventually had to put them on notice to abandon the unlawful limits or face legal action.
well, this - as you call it - blatant infringment of the rules was hardly a matter of national interest, was it? even though booze is the hidden true religion of the isles
When you wrote : "it is a club of sovereigns. there is no enforcer", I was simply pointing out that there is. I gave you an example.
smacker, perhaps the misunderstaning comes from my definition of law enforcement: men with weapons. technically, Westminster can anytime bring the matter in front of the highest British court. a treaty is always an understanding among sovereigns. without that understanding, the treaty is... null and void
it's when a sovereign wants to keep the treaty intact that it might submit itself to... following up on an executive order like the one example you brought. but the main enforcer of the treaty is still the sovereign UK, through it's courts, police, military, etc.
Soon we will see people selling Euros for 25 cents. The currency that was...
“Credit is a system whereby a person who can't pay, gets another person who can't pay, to guarantee that he can pay.”
- Charles Dickens
Smaller EU countries do not have the same rights as the big players,this has always been evident. If we look at Ireland they have won the approval of the German parliament to reduce their overall debt burden but only if they give up their Irish low tax regime.
Meanwhile the EU sinks deeper into the mire,you just cannot make this up. Of course fantasy economics are everywhere these days, you are a nobody unless you debt is running out of control.
"To contract new debts is not the way to pay old ones"
- George Washington
Make the margin call on all those CDS already motherfuckers.
Not only are you going to approve our budget but you will give us a bailout whenever we ask for it.
- France
"The trouble with Socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money."
- Margaret Thatcher
Ditto for US/Casino Capitalism: Where the GRC status gives them the (temporary) Right to make... Money for nothing and get your Checks for free.
Aw, that ain't workin', that's the way you do it. Them guys ain't dumb. Maybe get a little blister on your finger, maybe get a blister on your thumb. What's that? Hawaiian noises? Obonging on the keyboard like a Chimpanze. Oh, that ain't working...
Easy, easy money. And your checks for free...
F*ck the EU coming to a country near you. Ruberosso van Pompus and Junkers to be junked. bye bye a**holes
France tells Brussels allow us some leeway or Ms Le Penn is a shoe in.
lol France & Germany don't get it, they're NON-STATES, their opinion is irrelevant, all EU state operations are already promoting Islam, for like 10 years already (duh) and Islam is growing.
Germany is still an occupied country, the US won't let go, Germany needs a movement to get rid of Ami occupation and restore itself, but I guess that comes with the Caliphate.
Things gettin fuglier by the second!
Ever had a Condominium and had to adhere to the Associations rules restricting what your garden hose looks like and some people get repairs and you dont. Causes many people to sell.
Somehow I don't think France can produce a Lee or Jackson, Italy ? Maybe a Beauregard, Greece, maybe a Forrest - the EU, likely a Grant or psycho Sherman.
When the Sauds buy France they'll make it right. But where are they going to put all the Parisians?
go long estate tax rates. that will be the meeting point between a self serving governing class and an immovable Brussel Bureaucracy.