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24% Of Millennials "Expect" Student Loan Forgiveness
It appears the concept of no consequences is now deeply embedded in the American society. As Student loan debtloads surge ever higher - and opportunities grow ever lower - NBC News reports a rather stunning 24% of Millennials said they expect their loans will ultimately be forgiven, according to study released Wednesday by Junior Achievement and PwC US. That helps to explain why delinquency rates are at record highs - aside from the massive debtloads and no high-paying jobs - as students see bankers rigging every market in the world with little to no consequence, one can only imagine the lessons being learned.
Heavily delinquent student loans hit a fresh record high of $124.3 billion, up from $121.5 billion in the prior quarter.
NBC explains...
That could be a lot of accumulated debt, considering the average amount of cumulative student debt for undergraduates in the class of 2012 was $26,885, according to a recent Pew Research report. The average debt for 2013 graduates is expected to be even higher.
"It's a scary statistic," said Jack Kosakowski, president of Junior Achievement, which co-sponsored the Ypulse survey. The survey conducted for Junior Achievement, "Millennials & College Planning," did not address why the students thought their loans would be forgiven, and it was the first year the question was included in the survey.
The report also found that 60 percent of millennials surveyed said financial aid is a deciding factor in their school choice and 21 percent said the cost of college was their family's main financial problem.
* * *
Given the following, it is hardly surprising they hope and expect for forgivness...
The following are 18 sobering facts about the unprecedented student loan debt crisis in the United States…
#1 According to the Wall Street Journal, the class of 2014 is “the most indebted ever“…
As college graduates in the Class of 2014 prepare to shift their tassels and accept their diplomas, they leave school with one discouraging distinction: They’re the most indebted class ever.
The average Class of 2014 graduate with student-loan debt has to pay back some $33,000, according to an analysis of government data by Mark Kantrowitz, publisher at Edvisors, a group of web sites about planning and paying for college. Even after adjusting for inflation that’s nearly double the amount borrowers had to pay back 20 years ago.
#2 In 1994, less than half of all college graduates left school with student loan debt. Today, it is over 70 percent.
#3 Approximately 15 percent of graduate and professional school students leave school with student loan debt balances in the six figures.
#4 At this point, student loan debt has hit a grand total of 1.2 trillion dollars in the United States. That number has grown by about 84 percent just since 2008.
#5 According to the Pew Research Center, nearly four out of every ten U.S. households that are led by someone under the age of 40 is paying off student loan debt right now.
#6 The median net worth of young households that have student loan debt is 20 percent lower than the median net worth of young households that do not have any student loan debt and that are led by someone with only a high school education.
#7 Among college educated people, the median net worth of young households that do not have student loan debt is seven times higher than the median net worth of young households that do have student loan debt.
#8 In 2008, approximately 29 million Americans were paying off student loan debts. Today, that number has ballooned to 40 million.
#9 Since 2005, student loan debt burdens have absolutely exploded while salaries for young college graduates have actually declined…
The problem developing is that earnings and debt aren’t moving in the same direction. From 2005 to 2012, average student loan debt has jumped 35%, adjusting for inflation, while the median salary has actually dropped by 2.2%.
#10 According to CNN, 260,000 Americans with a college or professional degree made at or below the federal minimum wage last year.
#11 Even after accounting for inflation, the cost of college tuition increased by 275 percent between 1970 and 2013.
#12 Debt for law school students has risen dramatically over the past decade or so…
J.D.s certainly don’t come cheap. It’s almost unheard of to attend law school without taking out significant loans. What’s more, the average debt load is mounting: in 2001-2002, JDs borrowed on average $46,500 at public law schools and $70,000 at private law schools; by 2011, those numbers rose to $75,700 and $125,000, respectively.
#13 Last year it was being reported that 34.9 percent of all student loan borrowers under the age of 30 are at least 90 days behind on their student loan payments.
#14 One survey found that 27 percent of those with student loan debt moved back in with their parents after college.
#15 Another survey found that 70 percent of all college graduates wish that they had spent more time preparing for the “real world” while they were still in school.
#16 Student loan debt is causing many young Americans to delay getting married. The following is from a recent NBC News article…
While there is no specific data on student debt-related delays to marriage, a recent study by the Pew Research Center shows that a record number of Americans have never married. The study found the median age at first marriage is now 27 for women and 29 for men. In 1960, the median age was 20 for women and 23 for men.
#17 Many Americans are not even using most of their student loan money to pay for college. Instead, many are using much of that money to pay bills or stock the fridge…
Take Ray Selent, a 30-year-old former retail clerk in Fort Lauderdale, Fla. He was unemployed in 2012 when he enrolled as a part-time student at Broward County’s community college. That allowed him to borrow thousands of dollars to pay rent to his mother, cover his cellphone bill and catch the occasional movie.
…
Tommie Matherne, a 32-year-old married father of five in Billings, Mont., has been going to school since 2010, when he realized the $10 an hour he was making as a mall security guard wasn’t covering his family’s expenses. He uses roughly $2,000 in student loans each year to stock his fridge and catch up on bills. His wife is a stay-at-home mother who also gets loans to take online courses.
“We’ve been taking whatever we can for student loans every year, taking whatever we have left over and using it to stock up the freezer just so we have a couple extra months where we don’t have to worry about food,” says Mr. Matherne, who owes $51,600 in federal loans.
Some students end up going deeper into debt. Early last year, when Denna Merritt lost her long-term unemployment benefits, the 49-year-old Indianapolis woman enrolled part-time at the Art Institute of Pittsburgh’s online program, aiming for a degree in graphic design. She took out $15,000 in federal loans, $2,800 of which went to catch up on unpaid bills, including utilities, health-insurance premiums and cable.
“Obviously, it’s better not to use it that way if you can help it, because you’re just going to owe that much more later,” says Ms. Merritt, a former bookkeeper.
#18 Only 28 percent of Americans know that the U.S. government can garnish wages and withhold tax refunds if student loan debts are not repaid.
It should come as no surprise that the delinquency rate on student loan debt in this country is far higher than the delinquency rate on mortgages, auto loans and credit card debt.
This is a financial bubble that gets worse with each passing year, and if we continue on our current course it is going to end very, very badly.
* * *
Now where would they get the idea that forgiveness will happen?
"The challenges of managing student loan debt can lead some borrowers to fall behind on their loan payments and in some cases even default on their debt obligation," notes the always astute White House... and so it's time to do something about that... by bailing the bad debtors out with US taxpayers money. As we have been vociferously warning, not only has the student loan debt bubble expanded massively (as the easiest credit substitute for real-world working and unemployment) but delinquencies on the 'easily available' credit is soaring with "consequences such as a damaged credit rating, losing their tax refund, or garnished wages." Consequences, as we have been taught now, are not acceptable for this administration and so President Barack Obama issued an executive action in June aimed at making it easier for young people to avoid trouble repaying student loans.
A Federal Government bailout...?
President Barack Obama will issue an executive action on Monday aimed at making it easier for young people to avoid trouble repaying student loans, a White House official said on Sunday.
The president will sign an order directing the secretary of education to ensure that more students who borrowed federal direct loans be allowed to cap their loan payments at 10% of their monthly incomes, the official said.
Federal law currently allows most students to do this already. The president's order will extend this ability to students who borrowed before October 2007 or those who have not borrowed since October 2011, the official said.
The administration says this action will help up to 5 million more borrowers, although it will not be available until December 2015.
* * *
Welcome to the real world, debt serfs...
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They should expect little yellow masters.
I am a millenial. Education is a bubble and I know it will get forgiven.
Plus there are more loopholes in the PAYE scheme than there is in Swiss Cheese. I'll pay back like 10% of it. The rest, if planned for accurately is free money.
Thanks you fucking Boomers.
If you have the intellect to figure out how to scheme the system and lay off your debt onto others, why did you bother attending college in the first place? Should have just gone right to Goldman ala Leo DiCaprio in Catch Me if You Can.
"I am a millenial. Education is a bubble and I know it will get forgiven."
Delinquency used to be something to be ashamed of. I guess not for the millenials.
you are right about delinquency. Im not saying Im for loan forgiveness, and Im not saying Im against it, I'd just like to point out one thing: that which can't be repaid, won't be. Once you look at it like that, from the govts prospective, they will probably think they will win over a lot of support by instituting loan forgiveness, and once you realize it will NEVER be repaid anyway, it will begin to look like a good idea. Its basically either loan forgiveness or debtors prison. The other possibility is that they allow it to be discharged in bankrupcy
Just de facto forgiveness by inflation like everything else.
delinquency is no longer shame, it's a decent investment decision. Free money if you default....and prove hardship. and Hillary ao Warren are going to offer it up in exchange for votes....just watch.
liberals are the ones without the shame. millenials are just taking advantage of it.
When one person is an idiot, he has to pay for his idiocy. When everyone is the same type of idiot, the rules can change. You can turn a cow but it is harder to control a whole stampede.
"The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools."
Herb Spencer
Tyler summed up the LENDERS in this situation. Lets take 18 year olds who don't know any better... these 18 year olds have been brainwashed and lied to for the last 5 years that if they don't take out these loans and get a degree, they will be making $8 an hour the rest of their lives 'flipping burgers' with no hopes of a promotion or advancement beyond that.
The lenders are lending five figures to an 18 year old with no experience and no way to pay it back, as most of these degrees offered have no career at the end of them.
Not only that, with this irresponsible lending, universities can increase tuition to stratosphere, knowing that their prey can just borrow moar and moar to catch up with these unrealistic rates!
If I was lending my money, I wouldn't lend it to a 18 year old who doesn't know what to do with it. I would lend money to someone starting a business, and they better have a darn good business plan!
It's irresponsible lending that caused this disaster. Quit blaming naive teenagers.
I logged in at the library to up you, but for some reason can't. Good comment.
It's also irresponsible borrowing.
One irresponsible bankster can lend to thousands of irresponsible borrowers.
The bankster gets a bonus.
The competing banksters get passed over for promotion / fired / go bankrupt.
The idiot borrowers bid up prices so responsible people can't afford to buy anything.
Responsible people have to either compete against idiot borrowers, become idiot borrowers, or do without.
It takes time for the punishment to filter through the system - idiot borrowers go bankrupt and lose their stuff.
Which can have little consequence if they are stupid enough as the banksters will continue to lend them more money because that is how the banksters get rich.
Prices have not been allowed to go down to reflect the fact that people cannot afford to buy over-priced stuff. The time lapse between borrowing to buy stuff and not making repayments has totally corrupted the supply-demand pricing mechanism.
Banksters have been bailed out instead of allowed to go broke. The failed banksters did not lose their jobs. They did not even lose their bonuses.
So to sum it up, parents are negligent and kids are borderline retarded.
The only blame I have is the unionized racket called public education that failed the kids but that is what they are supposed to do.
I and many on here went through the same things and made decisions based on current financial situation and decided on a dgree based on the hot jobs in the next decade to not be saddled with debt later.
I never applied my way through school and at least took 10 minutes to do a few searches and this is when AOL was still dial up.
What excuse do they have when the internet is in thier hands? Instead of getting brain damage playing the Kardashian app.
Education should not be mandatory for one. When things are taken for granted you have this type of society who feels everything is entitled. For the most part education in other countries is not free and is why you kids more dedicated and smarter than American children busy killing themselves playing the choking game...
Do it for the children
10% loan
5% state tax
20% fed tax
5% property tax
6% sales tax
10% Obamacare tax
4% soc sec tax
60% gone 40% left for car house food cable internet
- 10 to -20% in debt to credit cards
Do it for the children
Do IT To the children!
"...they will probably think they will win over a lot of support by instituting loan forgiveness,"
I'd be careful with this line of reasoning. Old people (payors) vote; young people (payees) don't.
A bank has the responsibility to not loan money to someone without the ability to repay it. An individual has the responsibility to not take on so much debt he is unable to repay. Both hold a role. If the banks were not bailed out, they would not make such loans nor would individuals take on too much debt if forgiveness was unlikely.
Without a reset and a return to fundamentals, the whole thing is a fucking mess. Participate in this farce at your own risk and I kept my kids out of it.
Miffed
Usury was a crime long before the money changers instilled unreasonable guilt in people for being, "delinquent."
http://jimmyakin.com/wp-content/uploads/misc/6a00d8341bfbfe53ef014e88892...
http://bastiat.org/en/capital_and_interest.html
How exactly have the banks and governments, "...clearly proved that this [education] enables the borrower to obtain profits which he would not have made without it?"
From the link you posted that is what is required to justify the interest.
I think it has been proved time and time again that an education doesn't lead to more profits.
Students voluntarily enter into the contracts. It is their legal and moral obligation to follow-through with what they agreed upon. Moreover, they DO take the loans under the belief that they will obtain profits which they would not have made without it; they are investing in their own personal capital, and investments always entail risk. Sometimes this investment pays-off, and other times it doesn't, which is why investment requires prudence and foresight.
The problems with our education system stem from a lack of free markets and respect for property rights (government-backed loans, fractional reserve banking, arbitrary interest rates, ect.). To attempt to alleviate these problems by doing more of what caused them will be absolutely futile. I mean, somebody always has to pay as well; why should it be those who did not enter into the contract?
Moral obligation. That's hilarious. These contracts use size 8 point font that you can hardly read, run on for many many pages of legalese where you need to hire some lawyer prick to read it for $200 an hour just to get it. Then the contracts are beyond one-sided. The lender has all of these waivers and rights and can change the terms of the contract at will, but you the sucker signing it still have to play the rigged game.
If you would like to discuss "morals" lets discuss how immoral it is for these legal teams that type up these travesties.
If you would like to discuss morals, it's unanmiously men in their middle age typing these scams up, to hoodwink the youth of our society.
These lopsided lending practices is what's immoral.
Last time I checked, Jesus cleansed the Temple. He didn't bust the chops of the people getting ripped off by the moneychangers.
Your "moral obligation" argument is like looking through the wrong end of a telescope.
and again.
And yet, no one is forcing people into these contracts. If people refused to enter into contracts they don't understand, I assure you the contracts would change.
Are you saying, absent the use of force or coercion, people should not be responsible for their own actions?
In short, the kiddies are victims of the greatest betrayal of trust - they have to go against the advice of parents and teachers. Other than that, yeah, they should have had a better look at what they were signing up for. And it is about time parents and teachers woke up to the fact that the world around them has changed. But at the end of the day the bankster should take the most blame because the banksters knew better. They've had 20 years worth of intense lending experience where the kiddies are probably taking out their first loan ever - with the blessing of their "trusted advisors" - parents and teachers. Hardly an even match.
You are right that the taxpayers should not be forced to pay for the stupidity of the kids or the greed of the banksters, but if you expect the kiddies to pay up then you're dreaming. Like the other guy said, that which cannot be repaid, won't be.
An equitable solution will not be forthcoming unless the real victims - the sensible people who do not sign open contracts or borrow more than they can afford to repay - get some political power. Remember, those who managed their money wisely missed out on the higher education (Yes, you can debate whether or not they missed anything). Or if they did manage to get the higher education, they had to pay much more than what was necessary due to prices being bid up by idiots and their banksters. The idiots are powerless without their banksters. But the banksters will always be able to find enough idiots to start up a bidding war and leave the rest of the population to either put up or do without.
+1 for a balanced, ad hominem-free, response!
I would only add that the bankers would also be powerless without government and it's mafia-style force. Without these economically unstable government policies, bankers would have to suffer the losses themselves; a sure-fire way to keep them in check.
The foundation of morality is that individuals own the consequences of the exercise of their own free agancy. Morality cannot exist without free agency.
To shield someone from these consequences, is to shield them from moral culpability, or morality itself.
All well and good but when the banksters are allowed to lend to idiots, the damage is well and truly done before the idiots have to pay for their stupidity. If you have to wait for the idiots to go broke then you have already lost.
And you are losing more and more, every single day that you wait for consequences to catch up to the idiots. The banksters are the enablers. The idiots are just coming along for the ride.
Unbelievable. This asshole expects the average 17-18 y.o. to have the acuemen and legal expertise as a gang of banker attorneys? I don't know about you, but at that age, I was a smart kid, but I lacked experience in the world, and certainly didn't have enough to make life-long decisions without guidence.
It does not require legal expertise, merely common sense. It is as simple as not signing something you do not understand.
Furthermore, forgiving the debt is no solution to the problem. It only encourages more foolish behavior. Whatever you subsidize, you get more of. Thus, if you subsidize poor financial decisions, you will surely get more of it, along with rampant abuse. And any reward to the foolish, implicity punishes the prudent in this situation; a great injustice would be done to those who weighed their options and chose not to take on copious amounts of debt in pursuit of "higher education". When forgiveness is all said and done, where is the free degree for the prudent?
It is also worth noting that the lenders did not choose the majors of the borrowers- THE BORROWERS DID. So, if they find themselves in a situation where they have a worthless liberal arts degree and no career opportunities to speak of, it is their fault. And if these loans weren't federally-backed, believe me, the lenders would not be handing out loans to idiots who want theatre degrees.
These very same teenagers would not be able to walk into a car dealership and be handed a $20k car loan, because no lender in their right mind would take such a risk on a credit-less, job-less teen with no money. But alas, if there was almost no risk to the lender because the federal government offered up it's tax cattle as collateral, every idiot would be driving off the lot in a shiny new car.
Additionally, at what age, then, are people wise enough to make these decisions? I would really like to know your answer.
Taking your reasoning to its logical end, shouldn't people be prohibited from entering into these contracts until they reach this age of adequate judgement?
I mean, children are not allowed to enter into contracts because they lack the necessary faculties to responsibly do so. According to you, when should we not consider them children in this respect?
The BEEEEG debt is from over-priced state Football U and BIG Ivy.
Did you all FORGET that BIGov runs the colleges also? It's the casino working with the bank.
Feudal America: Hunger Games For Kids http://wp.me/p2kmGE-BT
BIGov wants you all enslaved - except for the STEM type clerks who keep tidy their banking systems and engineer public roads.
Millenials live in the magical reprobate world of post-shame, which is why you see them whoring themselves to utterly base causes.
Crowd source this.
Folks who really run the world moved the good jobs to China, Singapore, and what was left of very high tech, to Germany, and France. Tell me how this is anything like reprobate world of post shame.
I don't think France has much in the way of high tech manufacturing or development.
@lordylord: As a millenial, one thing I have learned in the last 10 years- making financial decisions based on "shame" or "ethics" tends to lead to you being screwed.
Shame had me paying my rent on time without a steady paycheck coming through. I should have just invoiced the rent to my company, in lieu of my salary, which I never received. Over $10k.
Shame had me killing myself and living on a loaf of bread a day, trying to pay down the principle on my student loan on minimum wage.
Where was the shame when US mortgage brokers created a subprime bubble, and a bunch of fucking idiots openly lied on mortgage applications. NINJA loans, which my generation will pay for*.
And where was the shame when QE and bank bailouts happened? Where was the shame when in all the trading scandals? Where was the shame in austerity and rising taxes? Where was the shame when industrial jobs were outsourced?
The list goes on. Sorry. I'm out of fucks to give at this point. If I can ever afford to pay my debt back, I will. Right now I'm scrabbling to have food and shelter.
A retort to your incredibly ignorant statement about people's motivations for becoming deliquent: "Debt used to be something that was affordable." It always is when economic growth is peachy. Try paying off debt in an economic downturn where real economic growth is negative. I fucking triple-dog-dare you.
*PS- I am European and I'm still paying for the actions of some fat, slovenly and downright dishonest American citizen who thought they could game the system and get a free house. At least my investment on margin was in a STEM subject.
PPS: I guess if it isn't your kids heading into the neo-feudal society (I'll forgive your debt if you work 30 years in my factory/on my land as my debt-slave/as a soldier in a war you probably won't return from) it's fine to be an armchair warrior, and pretend your shit doesn't stink.
@ BrosephStiglitz
Thanks for the invite to your pity party. The first step to recovery is to stop blaming everyone else for your poor choices and bad luck.
Sure, no problem. I'll say the same thing when people riot because they cannot afford to eat. Might be you that gets the hatchet.
Or if your assets get seized to pay down this massive debt bubble. Or if they get hyperinflated away. Or even if a jet engine sheers off a passing jet-plane and crushes you.
Consider yourself 100% accountable in all of those scenarios too.
Edit: also, you completely missed my point, jackass. I worked in two jobs (one for a good salary on paper, and the second minimum wage). The "good on paper" job ended up with me getting paid a fraction of what I was contractually entitled to because of private sector cash flow issues.
The second was minimum wage where I started eating away at the principle on the debt by eating bread, drinking water and sleeping on a friend's couch.
Must be great to have the world figured out in your old age. Enjoy your retirement while it lasts. Because this "controlled take-down" of people's ability to remain financially independent is going to rear its ugly head at your generation soon.
Poor people can afford to eat themselves into a weight caused disability. I am not sure when that is likely to change, bread and circus and all that.
For now. Bread and circuses stop when lending to government stops. That day of reckoning is also going to come.
Speaking of poor choices,
how much of your retirement is in USD, as a percentage, and of that -- how much of that is SS?
Enjoy poverty in your old age, and realising that YOUR generation, in one generation did what the British (twice), the Spanish, the Confederates, the Indians, the Germans (twice) and the Soviets -- could never do; destroy the USA.
I hope you selling your children into post-Roman feudalism is worth getting free shit paid for by 30 year inflation adjusted debt.
@lordylord Go fuck yourself. Both my wife and I work in a hospital. We make very good money. But that big money came a cost. An expensive one at that. We essentially have a mortgage payment without the house. People saving lives on a daily basis have a ton of debt. Did they make a poor choice? Was it bad luck? Once again go fuck yourself. The deck is stacked and you know it. Stop it with the self-righteous bullshit.
For what it is worth- I respect the hell out of you and your wife for your dedication and hard work. As with the handful of my more successful friends (who are the minority, I might add), I wish you all the best.
I would never detract from someone who grafted hard to get somewhere. But people need to stop acting like it is a realistic expectation for every individual to have the intelligence, or the ability to become a neuro-surgeon. Anyone who has ever looked at a normal distribution function, should be aware that this is not the case.
Make all the arguments you want for the kurtosis, or how skewed the normal distribution function is, ultimately the fundamentals remain unchanged.
I feel bad for the millinials...I truly, truly do.
But the fact remains they vote overwhelmingly socialist.
I cannot blame them fully for this, as they are young, stupid and were indoctrinated by socalist union parasite teachers. We were all young and dumb.
Once.
The only good thing that could come from this is to
#1: stop blaming others, or looking for a scapegoat for all this mess, as you had a hand in it too (unless you want to count the government-collegiate-banker complex who fucked you over).
#2: Stop voting for ANYONE who promises you free shit, it takes a village, etc. from either party. Although one party has it down to an art form.
You are no longer young.
Act like it.
And serve as a warning to those who come after you.
p.s. just becuase you work in a hospital deson't mean shit. I spent a career in one, and you would have to save many lives to catch up with me.
Go without a garbage man, electricity, a farmer for a couple of weeks and see how your life changes.
You chose your fate. You get paid. Live with it.
Perhaps others are socialist, but I am not. I am overwhelmingly capitalist and a fiscal conservative. I've always paid my taxes. I've never asked for a hand-out from the government and I have started my own business in the past. It ran out of capital before revenue could be realized. I intend to start another. I just take offense to the notion that everyone everywhere can somehow survive if they just work harder.
That has never been the case. That will never be the case. Older people who use their "life experiences" to point this view out, and reference their life as irrefutable evidence of this statement, are just fucking stupid. So sorry, but it's true.
Edit: and on that note, having vented, I am going to go back to more productive things than trying to educate ignorant retirees on the internet.
PS: your name is fitting, because once again you show all the hallmarks of the ignorance I have come to expect out of the generational divide.
Don't hate me...I tried to warn y'all thru the years.
Hate on your peers. They were the lemmings, as you well know.
And YOU need to ACCEPT SOME RESPONSIBILITY for your actions.
You claim to be a conservative....but you are acting like a flaming liberal (blaming others, getting mad, etc.)
Reality is a bitch. Deal with it.
And for God's sake man......SACK THE FUCK UP!
Of course I have made mistakes over the years. I try to learn from them and grow, rather than wallow in pity. Be that as it may, people generally ARE herded like cattle these days.
Now that people are beginning to educate themselves in these areas of lemmingdom, there is no excuse if the world goes to shit for our children, (or I suppose your grandchildren?) The burden of a brighter future, regardless of the past, is our burden to bear.
Used to be part of the herd. Should have found ZH earlier.
Also- if some asshole like you showed up at the door tomorrow with state backing and claimed I had two choices. Be a slave. Or pay it all back plus interest.
I would kill myself on the spot, which would, under the terms of the loan, cancel the debt.
I don't say that for pity, but I am absolutely serious and 100% resolved to do so. It is a matter of principle for me, to die free, rather to live an oblique life of servitude, barely affording interest repayments.
You must have an older Fed. student loan. The new ones read like life insurance, and suicide doesn't forgive the loan if;
1) You are married or in a civil union
2) You are still claimed as a dependent at the time of the suicide.
So if you are doing your own thing, and you kill yourself the loan goes away. If you are married and kill yourself, your spouce now not only has to bury you, but he/she has incurred all of your student loan debt that will not be discharged in bankruptcy.
So the public policy on this is;
1) If you want to kill yourself, and you love your spouce -- don't because you fuck them for the next 30 years. Imagine how the pain turns to anger to hatred in the future as 15 years on they are having to write checks to pay off their old spouce's debts as they fucked them.
2) If you want to kill yourself and you hate your spouce -- do it.
You're right but it was similar to the old-style Fed. loan but in Europe (which tend to be laggards in adopting US education policies.)
Under the new loan system I would not put the burden on the people I loved and cared about. Good luck to anyone who is in my shoes with a newer loan. The only option for them is to go to war with the system (also something I would not advocate.)
My approach is passive but the newer loans do not even allow for that.
+1 lordylord
These people are just like those who somehow blame McDonalds for their poor health and obesity; never acknowledging that they choose to stuff their faces with Big Macs and soda.
True, but then the kiddies haven't had their most trusted advisors - parents and teachers - spend the last 17 years extolling the virtues of a McDonalds diet.
Errr, I don't actually know that. Maybe that explains the other problem with the US ...
;)
"*PS- I am European"
Sincerest condolences to you. So glad you're not a pompous, opinionated fool who thinks he knows better than anyone else who took advage of whom.
I've read a lot around the subject of the subprime and the financial crisis, including the 600 page FCIC report (US Govt reference). And yes, there is a massive amount of literature out there. You could study it for a lifetime, so if I am wrong and you are better informed, enlighten me and I'll eat my words publicly (no /sarc).
As far as I am aware there is blame on both sides where the banks are concerned. US banks held the mortgages and chopped up the derivatives, and European banks provided the liquidity needed to accelerate the mortgage lending process. (Otherwise mortgage lending would have been constrained to the time needed to recover mortgage repayments.) But ultimately the lax lending standards in the US mortgage market, largely due to political desires at the time, plus little to no oversight in mortgage lending practices, were the sparks that set the tinder alight.
From the perspective of Euro banks, if they wanted to set up shop in the US, they were told to invest in the US economy, and repatriate profits back to Europe. I know this because I know several people in the industry.
And since the banks in the US and Europe were in bed together, everyone was fucked. And they continue to be fucked, I should add, owing the the necessity of the Fed to more or less bail out the European banking system in the post crisis years.
Either way someone foots the bill for this evaporating wealth and it is the US and Euro taxpayers. Which means, overwhelmingly, the productive, tax-paying (middle) class are being penalized disporportionately for the failings of the folks both above and below them.
PS: The student loan bubble absolutely stinks of sub-prime characteristics, and it isn't confined to the US alone. Except now that it has reached sub-prime status, they have implemented no debt forgiveness. No matter -what- happens to that underlying sub-prime debt, nothing good will come of it.
I endorse and condemn this comment. can I vote both up and down?
Sure (what part did you condemn?)
It is also probably also worth noting that if "24% of millenials expect student loan forgiveness", the same information can be framed as "76% of millenials knuckling down and getting on with shit."
Inflammatory article title.
Why not expect forgiveness? How many mortgage holders got it?
Fuck off with your slave morals.
Default is a business decision, no more, no less.
They voted for the people that got them PERMANENT part time work.
just what did they think obamacare was GOING TO DO?
I didn't know how to do it at the time. do now.
Because, some shitheads that were born after WWII thought "everyone should go to college" and setup a system to make a Bachelor's degree the HS Diploma equivlant of the 50s. But here is a twist -- HS Diploma for you was free. College costs us now.
So now I have a whole wall of fucking diplomas, and work at a large banking institution outside of the USSA with a ton of other Americans in my same situationn, who had the wherewithall to realise your generation would fuck us with a rake for the next 30 years, so we left. Have fun picking up the pieces.
P.S. - Ask your accountant about the tax incentives for educated people with lots of student loan debt, taking the foreign income deducation as opposed to the 1:1 taxes paid credit. Public policy brain drain. We are just like Greece in this sense.
So you get a worthless degree, wasted years, and bad credit. The university president, a boomer, gets a new slate roof on his palatial estate. Yeah, you're a winner.
Instead of the worthless degree, you should have been the University President instead. Per the Janet Yellen philosophy, if you had just INHERITED wealth, you might have gotten the University President job.
President is the modern term for lord and student is the modern term for serf. The crazy thing is that so many students decide to enter the system.
And their parents co-sign their loans.
4 degrees, in Accounting, Law, and International Finance, but yeah, go ahead and lump me in with those African American Studies majors. You know the money the government's taken from you in the form of SS -- and has promised you'll get back in retirement -- its gone -- forever. You'll never see any of it. You are a lot closer to retirement han I am. Have fun with that.
You think a near millennial who frequents ZH is banking on SS?
I have nothing against millennials. Most of the women that age are desperate to find a man.
Degree in "International Finance" - stop, you're making it worse!
(Yeah, and I have a MS in International Electrical Engineering.)
Here in Germany there is the concept of Internationalwirtschaftsrecht.
Mock me all you want. If you can come up with a better translation that everyone can understand I am all ears.
I used to live in Dubai...if you don't pay your debts you go to jail. Maybe we should put a bunch of millenials in jail and so how they feel then.
The don't give trophies for participation in the big house!
Cant pay your student loans?? pick up trash along the highway, dig ditches, etc... until your debt is paid. It might make more then a few rethink their 'education'
That is an abso-fucking-lutely fantastic idea. Transfer the cost of debt deliquency to the national taxpayer FURTHER.
In this tug of war between creditors and debtors, there are two outcomes:
1. Debt forgiveness. This can happen in many ways, but the outcome is always the same.
2. Slavery. Again possible in many ways with the same end outcome.
Maybe we should incarcerate folks with debts and then make them work for bread and water. That would be the only way your (incredibly moronic) idea works.
Here are some other ways to enforce slavery:
- Pay folks to live in a guarded and walled off compound that you own the property rights to. Force them to repay their wages in return for bread to survive.
- Enforce debts via a private army. Offer debt forgiveness to protect you (join your army), or to produce food/goods via your assets.
- Confiscate an individual's legal means to leave a geographic area until their "employment contract(ual)" obligations are fulfilled.
Are you seeing a common pattern here? (Hint: it's the same thing). If you lived in Dubai as an expat: AKA Disneyland, I am sure that these methods were employed regularly.
Edit: I am truly sorry, those two options apply to folks who are deliquent because of a lack of earning potential. There are actually three outcomes if you do not assume delinquency. The third option is austerity and regular debt repayments over a certain time period. This is possible if-
1. You have a skillset which ensures a steady wage/salary that beats the economy (see: statistically unlikely for most people in a shrinking economy.)
2. You are not put out of work by capital shifting in the globalized economy, or rapid technological advancement.
I say lets jail the fuckers who setup a system that allowed higher education prices to more than double in a 10 year period, and didn't do shit about it.
Who "forced" you to go to college - and for 4 degrees, no less? Why is it someone else's fault?
Please, sir, can I have another?
See my response above, re; shitheads being born right after WWII, and then in the 60s thinking every person with a pulse should go to college- overwhelming the market with supply decreasing demand, and in order to remain competative you have to go to MOAR college. While at the same time, this same voting block filled with shitheads started handing out money to Universities like Halloween Candy and thus drove the prices skyward, while simultaneously, this same voting block brought in a ton of unskilling immigrants who aren't even literalte in their own langugaae to take all the low skilled jobs.
The Boomers fucked Gen X and the Millenials. Gen X will bend over and take it, but given the split in votes in my first reply, and the comments here, there will be a generational war between the Shitboomers and the Millenials.
This is the point. When you have a stampede for degrees because people are worried about their future, and debt can fund the degrees, you end up with a subprime market in education.
Just in the same way that good and bad mortgages were all lumped into one pot and were difficult to distinguish from one another, good and bad degrees (in terms of usefulness to society) are also present.
There is no market price and if you don't get a degree, you risk some fuckface with a gender studies degree getting first shot at a job. Because they have a degree and you don't. Even if it is worthless.
Did you know that thhere are still "General Studies" majors!?
Other than being an Assistant Manager* at Best Buy -- what do you do with that?
*I was an Assistant Manager at Best Buy in ... High School, so no HS Diploma required.
ITT: Old people downvoting truth bombs.
For what the Baby Boomers did to our generation, they should be rendered into oil and used to lubricate our bicycle gears.
My favorite part was going to the general manager's barbeque on my "on paper lucrative job". The one I never got paid for.
He was sat around drinking and cracking jokes about high strung young people were. In his day he was still drinking heavily and rutting in the mud at Woodstock at 26.
I quit that company with some of the younger guys (rather than being laid off) once the cash flow issues started, because a lot of the older folks had dependents, and our salaries were sucking potential money for reinvestment out of the company. We were still learning the job (which was technical). The older guys had been at it for years. The company unfortunately went bankrupt.
Most of the older generations cannot imagine the struggle that some young people are going through these days.
Don't worry, we'll get the last laugh when SS and pensions collapse and they come crawling to our doors begging for scraps from our tables only to discover they've already expropriated everything we had left to give. :-/
Some people might be laughing, but the magnitude of the tragedy that is on its way probably isn't anything to joke about. I just hope our children have it better (if we aren't snuffed out like vermin before then.)
Edit: and unlike the previous generation, who were duplicit, or ignorant to the wholesale fraud that was perpetrated against the average citizen, the veil has been pulled back to reveal the ugly inner workings of the system.
I do not necessarily hold the average individual in the previous generations accountable for where we are today. It was a deeply subtle example of sleight of hand that was enacted. I do, however, take offense at the "in my day we would pick ourselves up by our bootstraps" defense.
mayhem...:
Your bullshit argument falls over the instant you realize that earnt money is competing against "free" debt money. Prices are bid too high and only the indebted can "afford" to buy anything and the debtless simply have to do without.
Sure the indebted go bankrupt in six years time but by that time there is a new bunch of suckers available, ready to borrow and push prices into the stratosphere.
The you got the banksters that happily lend to the only people left willing to borrow - idiots that have already gone bankrupt. But why would the banksters care? They get free money and onsell the debt to some other sucker.
Prices are bid too high and only the indebted can "afford" to buy anything and the debtless simply have to do without.
Do without what - iPhone 6? Keep believing that you were forced to take on the debt and you will stay in the place you are in forever.
But thanks for playing. 8D
I was talking houses and education. Feel free to do without both.
Just remember the next time that you drive over a bridge that it was designed by someone who was dumb enough to sign an open contract or didn't bother doing the math on loan vs potential wages because it was too hard.
I say jail the debtors who don't pay. My side has the political power. Who wins that one?
People like me, who GTFO of the USSA, and where it is unconstitutional to garnish wages from international claims for student loan debt, as here, Education is considered a fundamental right.
They didn't "allow" it. They actively "promoted" it. The ones who ultimately collect all the student loan money are boomers. The ones who will get bailed out if the loans go tits up are boomers. Again, the kids are the ones screwed over by the debt and overpriced degrees. If you escaped the system by bugging out of the USSA, good for you.
For the millionth time, it's the student loans which are driving up tuition in the first place. And the top 10%, in terms of academic performance, don't pay for college, never have, never will. The other 90% are admitted to subsidize the recruitment of gifted students.
Bankers first! Prosecute the big fish, then maybe we can talk about the little ones.
Smart man. I'm also a millenial but I left university after 2 semesters because I believed it was unwise to take on debt. Turns out I'm the fool for doing the right thing.
If you were in UG you probably made the right decision. Private student loans you have to pay back.
The sad thing is the shit is so thick at this point the only way we get out of this is by total forgiveness and an understanding of right and wrong going forward. The more time spent arguing over whos to blame the worse this gets. Instead, by picking and choosing forgiveness will be given this perverse association with abetting and favoritism. All anyone can do to preserve their sanity at this point is to take things one day at a time.
I did similiar thing; I could have finished, but I couldn't justify the price tag, even as a naive 22 year old. Funny thing is, I am at a job now where most of my coworkers HAVE degrees from schools, and THEY are in huge debt and in some cases, work second jobs. lol.
When this thing crashes again, and it will, the fact that I not in one cent of debt will put me at ease.
Haus.
It looks like you have been majoring in drug usage rather than pharmacokinetics.
Good luck in the future.
Libertus
If millenials were not such twats I might be slightly sympathetic. But since you collectively are.....look to be wrong. You'll get the wood put to you.
Can't blame you for taking advantage of the rules. Everyone does. Including the chosen, compassionate, enlightened ones (a.k.a. liberals).
Hope you learned that liberals are just as greedy as those they call selfish.
Your school was ran by them. And you most likely voted for them. So if you did...you fucked yourself. I know many of your peers sure did.
As for paying back 10%....you better hope you never miss a payment for a decade.
You know what happens then.....
Not even Hillary will be able to save you.
Memo to Millennial: I'm a boomer you little snot nosed shit. I was drafted and went to Vietnam. I came back and went to college on the GI Bill. Little turds like you that expect to be handed everything on a platter. You wasted your (borrowed) money on an "education" that lied to you about just about everything you were taught(History, Finance, Economics, Civics, Business). You think you'll be forgiven? LMFAO! You will be a debt slave for eternity. You'll be hounded by the Feds til you croak(think IRS penalty/interest). They might give you one option. Join the military. Your education is just beginning chump.
I'm also a millennial and I expect nothing. If student debt ends up being forgiven that’s great. You can call me pessimistic but I'm just trying to be realistic. I rather owe as little as possible and pay it back than owe a ton and hedge my bets that this will be the case.
LOL. First of all, it will NOT be forgiven.
Second, going into debt for an undergrad degree is idiotic. Most undergrad degrees are absolutely worthless, so even if your debt was forgiven, your degree is still worthless.
And what loopholes are you even talking about? There are none, if there were, EVERYBODY would be doing it.
There is no (zero, zip, nada, zilch) precedence for student loan forgiveness. It ain't gonna happen. There is no free lunch. How would it be fair to those students that didn't borrow money? How would it be fair to someone who borrowed $1 million and another that borrowed $100? It ain't gonna happen. They might lower the interest rate, but forgiveness- no way. Congress would never approve debt forgiveness anyway.
Those with student debt are paying their own created "stupid tax". Welcome to the real world Millenials. Life is hard and it's even harder if you're stupid.
I take it you voted for Obama. Don't take the cheese, tool.
You're welcome.
Yeah, and I expect a solid gold turd to fall out of my butt this morning.
At least we know where you hid your gold :)
A STEM degree pays for itself in the first year. The same people who want "free" school are the same people majoring in woman's studies and philosophy. Try living in the real world little libbies.
If there wouldn't be such a thing like woman's studies, McDonalds would have a pretty hard time finding burgerflippers
Bullshit. In the old world it did. Now not so much.
RE
This is a false misnomer. The jobs that STEM degrees fall under have either had their wages grow stagnant or jobs outsourced (mostly to India) for slave wages.
Granted, if you are arguing what degree is most valuable, that would be a STEM degree. But our labor system does not reward value; it rewards mediocrity. That's why Jaime Dimon makes millions per year yet the guy who built the computer you make comments on makes less than $2/hour in China.
Computer assembly isn't really STEM, it's IT monkey work. The guy who designs and sells software can make millions too.
There are not sufficient jobs for the 66,000 scientists and engineers the US graduates every year as it is (not even factoring in the H-1B visa slave STEM employees). Paul Craig Roberts (former Ass't Sec of Treasury) and Robert Reich (former Sec of Labor) have both written articles on the matter previously (example: http://www.counterpunch.org/2006/06/06/the-death-of-us-engineering/) ....supply does not create demand.
See here for what the real market looks like for recent engineering graduates:
http://www.city-data.com/forum/unemployment/998504-entry-level-recent-gr...
None of the top 10 fastest growing career fields are in STEM. Rather, the STEM shortage is a myth:
http://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2014/03/the-myth-of-the-sci...
They must be heavily sedated on psychotropic drugs to still believe in Santa Claus.
http://winteractionables.com/?p=16430
They will forgive the debt alright:
"Got in a little hometown jam, so they put a rifle in my hands."
Same as it ever was.
pods
Interestingly the article highlights how a quarter of this generation will wind up working in 'public service', thus qualifying for some type of student loan forgiveness.
Remember when 'public service' was actually considered a hardship? Ahhh, the good old days.
Now it's just considered where fuck-ups and substandards go to work- vacant of any pride, they'll sign up, because they need to be told what to do, because that was the plan all along- submit, obey, be thankful for your enslavement.
Nah, not really. If your amibition is to have a secure job with a steady paycheck then it makes sense to work for the folks who "print" the money, or a subsidiary thereof.
That's just paying the bills. If you want some kind of personal fullfillment gotta do that on your own time.
If you just want the cheddar without the rat wheel sign up for the FSA.
Actually, my younger brother worked for the fed .gov and is already retired with a 7 figure+ net worth at the ripe age of 51. He travels the world. I have about 9 years to go in the healthcare industry and have no where near his net worth. Sometimes it's worth it to be a .gov drone. He gets to spend the second half of his life liiving on the beach (SC) and doing as he pleases. I get to pay for it.
"Hey, Joe! Where you goin'uh run to now?
I'm goin' way down south, way down south, to Mexico way!
I'm goin' way down south, way down south, baby, way down where I can be free!"
...as students see bankers rigging every market in the world with little to no consequence, one can only imagine the lessons being learned.
* This is the phrase that controls most Millinial attidutes and is the absolute God damn truth.
If they were really learning from them they would become bankers. I'm thinking about going down that route in all honesty. Can't beat'em join'em. I completely realize what they are doing and nor am I arguing the validity of their choices but one does what they have to in order to be at the top and hold all the cards.
thats what kinda scares me right there. federal student loan debt? no problem, join the army, it will all be forgiven
False hope binds us to impossible situations.
Decisions rooted in false hope binds us to impossible situations.
This reminds me of that great bumper sticker -
"Think Nobody Cares? Just miss a repayment".
This country ain't called the 'Land of the Free' for nuthin' !! Pound that FICO to zero while you're at it !
hey, you miss the 'Lunch' at the end of the sticker.
Gold Blast America
And they wonder why older generations look at them as lazy deadbeats looking for entitlement.
sure. they read Krugman´s insane ideas about infinite debt and consider their debts non payable.
im not a lazy deadbeat looking for entitlements. I look at the older generations like boomers as lazy deadbeats, expecting my generation to fund their retirements out of debt that my generation will be expected to work all our lives to pay interest on(its not getting repaid, ever), and, by the time we reach retirement, those programs will be bankrupt, along with the rest of the country, leaving us with only debt. Enjoy it, for yours is truly the generation of entitlements, floating high in retirement based on an unsustainable debt bubble.
Older generations sold their offspring off to the devil so that they could buy shit they dont need with credit cards and retire in florida.
Then they call their offspring lazy because they wont slave away paying off the previous generations debt. . . pfft
There is a lining of truth to that idea, but it is a bit skewed and it is a blanket statement that doesn't apply to every boomer, but the general consensus is something like that . ..
The right thing to do is reboot the system and throw the previous generation under the bus, let them deal with the consequences of their own exuberance and deficit spending.
When the entire system is operating with fraud and counterfeiting, its a little hard to see things as "right and wrong" because the whole system is "wrong" no matter how you slice it.
You have one group of people counterfeiting and stealing, and then they are arguing against everyone doing it... lol
yes the fraudsters dont want you to become a fraudster and compete with them... thats all I see.
This is just a symptom of the widely pervasive moral hazard unleashed in 2008 bailouts, and in todays continuing tolerance to unpunished fraud at rigging scandals at all the global banks.
Students must think "why the fuck should i pay my bills?" Welcome to the humanity 21st century, a complete deadbeat civilisation.
The money to fund these student loans was counterfeited anyway.
In a normal world, the counterfeiters would be arrested, and the loans expunged.
But in bizarro world we reward the counterfeiters with bonuses and arrest students.
Repaying these loans isn't going to undo the damage the banks did to the American people.
But
Forgiving the loans will have a net-positive effect on the economy that every (real) American will feel.
When you run a society with two sets of rules (one set of rules for the counterfeiter class) and another set of rules for the rest of the people, a little social chaos and dis-order is just the systems way of correcting the injustice.
The money to fund these student loans was promised to professors as pension payments.
To forgive the debt is bailout of the counter party, another pension scheme.
This economy cannot handle those two shocks.
The economy is fucked either way, because these loans are not getting payed off regardless of your sentiment, so might as well do the right thing.
'sentiment'
The money to fund these student loans is other peoples money who invested it after they saved money from their paycheck.
You live on another planet if you believe that...
“You didn’t earn that money”
LOL –
Forgiving the loans will have a net-positive effect on the economy that every (real) American will feel
I think the hash you are smoking is tainted.
Let's extend your logic - why not forgive all loans? Why stop at student loans? How about if every bondholder wakes up tomorrow with the knowledge that they won't be getting their money back? That would surely have a "net-positive" effect on the economy, right?
And I thought the CBs were the masters of transferring the consequences of irresponsibility.
Who said forgive? The Fed will just print more to make up the shortfall.
Forgiving student loans would be a net positive. Good for morale in general. And presuming the current game could somehow continue it should boost demand. Generally humans consume the most in early years of household formation and child rearing, then in old age consumption declines. Student debt (and lack of good paying jobs) is acting as a drag on the formation of new households and families. See:kids moving back in with parents, delayed marriage, reduced overall rate of marriage, etc.
And FWIW the irresponsibility started with those giving out the loans. One assumes that large scale lenders should have a handle on likely default rates and should make the loans, or not, accordingly. Putting the weight of this all on the borrower is just silly.
If you are replying to my post, you either cannot read or have trouble with that thing we call logic. Not sure which, but there are meds for either.
So you aren't speaking out against student loan forgiveness and comparing millenials to central bankers? Saying essentially that student loan forgiveness is a no go, because slippery slope, false equivalency, capitalism would fail, etc.? Because that is how I read it.
The majority of student loans are owed to the federal government/taxpayers and owed by other at least potential taxpayers.
Making them dischargeable in bankruptcy would be the sane way to unwind the mess, but blanket forgiveness gains more political points and doesn't tie up the courts.
Again, you're struggling with that reading thing. All I said was that forgiving debt is not a positive for the economy. Taking it on in the first place lit the fuse, but simply walking away from it just transfers pain from the debtor to the creditor. No net positive - just the illusion. Which is exactly what the Central Banks are doing - transferring the pain of the central state to the masses through debt monetization.
What the millenials here are arguing for is not something that will produce any gain for any economy; they are arguing for attribution of the losses to the creditors who "fooled" them into taking it on.
Maybe if the debt was forgiven in exchange for repo on the degree? Just like cars.
thanks for playing, tho
The new black is bankruptcy.
Student loan forgiveness will be the least of their problems. The ice age is coming.
Will they pay back the loans with the new Shit Dollar or the old Fiat?
Forgiven by their parents who co-signed.
And I expect a blowjob from Jennifer Lawrence!
she's bussy but we've send her stand in
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-CZyorE5Qu7k/URVjz2iK6DI/AAAAAAAAwTw/bXjTi_-a9u...
Debt forgiveness will never happen.
And those who do, should ask themselves this question:
HAVE THEY THEMSELVES LOANED SOMEBODY 1000 DOLLARS
AND JUST SAID: FORGET ABOUT IT MAN!
yeah...
For the same reason they would beat the crap out of their best friend who they loaned the money to times 100 they shouldn't expect something as foolish as debt foregiveness.
You seem to be operating under the illusion that money was actually loaned by the banks....
Fiat 101: Debt money is created by the debt instrument. It did not exist before the instrument and paying it back destroys the instrument just as destroying the debt instrument erases the money
Their parents bailed themselves out…
LOL - "Everyone gets a trophy".