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Santelli Goes Ballistic: "I Feel Like I'm Living In A Cartoon"
Having noted rather pointedly that "there's a subsidy in the marketplace that's worked out definitely to those that are holding equities," Santelli warns, when The Fed removes it, "it creates a problem for equities." However, when he is asked about the disconnect between the bond market (rates) and what The Fed is telling us, Santelli rightly explodes, lambasting the 'Hatzius' of the world, "if The Fed hasn't made up its mind" about when and how rates will rise, "how can markets 'price it in'?" ... and the rant ignites from there...
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It's cool Target earnigns are up Bobo!
http://hedgeaccordingly.com/2014/11/targets-3q-profit-beats-expectations...
I just bought a milspec Kevlar helmet.
I want to make an impression with the ladies on the trading floor.
I think that it was a pretty good deal at 90 bucks..
But JHC.. dos anybody realize how heavy these damn things are?
Do a stint door kicking brown people's houses in foreign lands for Uncle Sam... he'll loan you one for free and throw in a few clown bux for good measure, just like he has for millions of others. At this point the surrender of one's civil rights when they become official .gov property has degraded to the point it just a paper formality.
(btw - the rest of the crap is even heavier)
When there is a 5 std deviation move in the bond market in one day, Oct 15, then you know bond market has gone full retard...
Santelli has been wrong for over ten years. His rant is just more blah blah blah!
I don't login here much anymore, but I felt the need to do so to reply to you from a cramped United flight. No funny dude-ism today...
Go suck a dick.
That is all.
Santelli is a chimp flinging poo.
<no offence to chimps>
Pffttttt......the chimp is just a uneducated stupid American voter who doesn't know any better?
I think I will go cut 3" of my slong off just so I can zip my pants now.
Hope, Hope and Change!!!
"a cramped United flight"
unless you are a rich Brazillian or a tattooed Guatamalen.. and traveling from Houston to Rio.. just tuck your genitals up if you travel on the air greyhound formerly known as Continental.
There is no "United" anymoar.
It has been destroyed.
"...living in a cartoon."
Of course we are, among the cartoon characters; WB provided lots of clues.
The "stupid voters" make up the bulk of that cartoon...
The Fed's can manipulate to the moon - and people feel they are omnipotent - that is until they learn about a Shemitah Year. And we are in one, and they with 100% accuracy trigger depressions / recessions. This shemitah year will end on September 13, 2015.
Get out of the markets people because the Good Creator himself is gonna play Smash Mammon..
Santelli?
Bread and Circuses…. For some!
Moving on…. Did not even bother to watch.
There are people watching this guy?
Putz!
: - /
Prophets are always hated in their own land.
Party pooper syndrome, I guess.
ur being very undude
Thanks for logging in... and showing us all how far santelli's cock is cramped down ur throat. ThatsAll.
UR.. you are right..
I am just trying to have some fun.
..but I actually do have the new green headware.. if nothing else, it might help protect me from the ballistic missus. :-)
so you bought a helmet to receive some helmet?
..now I am bummed.. you can’t use this new tech over a fire to boil a squirrel.
..it aint like the old days
No, you can't cook dinner in it, but it will work just fine as a dish to eat your MRE's out of. Besides, who wants to eat a squirrel? The USA is entitled - guaranteed, even - to have a continuous supply of MRE food. That's progress! America, yeah!
..so, I just picked a case full of VE-301 MRE Individual Meal Cheese Tortellini.
I hope they get better with age.. or maybe the seasoned Kevlar will add some flavor. :-)
But when they found the starving dogs in Iraq would not eat the discarded MRE's I'm not sure that is an advantage..
Why boil squirrel? It's not like the meat is tough.
One of the nice things about my new $90.00 chapeau is that my voice seems to resonate a little better on the Bluetooth earpiece but on the down side, I am a little concerned about how my haute fashion will be accepted at my favorite bar.
Does it have a neck protector, strong enough to stop a knife? Just saying...
gee, it does not.. but I do have the kevlar gloves that hopefully will thwart the attack of even the most determined ISIS-ists.
ISIS are a bunch of pansies compared to the bankster types that are now thinning their own ranks.
Well, a few are down but it's not quite that they are dropping like flies yet,, but we can hope.
oh.. oh.. I was refering to the bankers, I would much rather have more isist-ists than bankster-ists.
If you want a nice light helmet that has the same "fritz" style try a USMC LWH on e-bay.
A nice notch up from that would be an Ops-Core L3 Kevlar or even a Carbon Fiber.
About that "dropping like flies": I read a review on a book just last week about a guy who gets fed up and goes to town on 'em.
He was a Vet that was in a combat unit and had other relevent experience as well.
Seemed fairly interesting.
Wish I could remeber where I saw it or what it was called.
Just spent 15 mins trying to find it again...
Oh well.
Comm cut FAST helmets are nice and light. Give you that extra "SpecWar" look the ladies like. Set you back about $600 but what the hell? Don't forget your WileyX goggles and grow out a beard for extra credit.
oh gosh, yes.. I have the beard.. I just have to score the goggles.. and actually, the heavy helmet is helping to get me that Cardasian neckline that was so popular a few years back.
Looney Tunes is right, Mr. Daffy Duck Santelli. The middle class is looted with every manner of taxes while the super rich get a multi-trillion dollar ZIRP subsidy from the Fed.
"It's a stupid discussion to have."
Truer words...
... would likely result in him getting renditioned
i like santelli
I hope he and his leaves there before they blow it up like they did ny
Rick is So 2009
Rick is So 2009
Yes indeed those were the good ol' "daze"! You and the rest of us will be pining for 5 years ago come Q1 of 2015!
most classic part was when liesman was saying "janet yellen is in a plane, on a runway ... she is getting ready for take off, but is unsure as to when due to wind speeds, clouds, weather..."
one of the guests responded saying "its more like the entire FOMC is in the cockpit and everyones looking for a map!"
that was 1 of the more priceless back-and-forths in interviewing history watching liesman get cock-slapped
oh, and that was followed by jim grant giving kelly evans a lesson in common sense economics & interest rates ... think he left a little on her chin
"its more like the entire FOMC is in the cockpit and everyones looking for a map!"
We can't get to where we need to go from where we are...
"where we're going, we need no roads"
Guess not when the objective is to drive the USA train off a cliff.
Kelly, if you are reading this, I do not care what station you are on or what communist bullshit you are slinging for TPTB. The Frog is here waiting for you. I'll give you at least 30 seconds, double what any of those socialist statist communist terds give you in bed.
The Fed is not going to "raise" rates so much as ease its jack boot off the neck of the markets.
They think they can ration and control that process.
Good luck with that.
who let a capitalist on our communist airwaves? the producer and capitalist should be arrested for treason!!!
Join the club. I've felt like I've lived in a cartoon since 2002. It's been the same shit for over a decade.
Im at 1999 but yeah its been a shitshow for too fucking long.
So if everything is theater, what's Santelli's role and is he aware that he's playing it? I think Dylan Ratigan figured it out and promptly left.
yup.
I have never understood ZH's love for Rick Santelli. The man would have left the BlowHorn years ago if he had an ounce of integrity about how that network operates and the daily propaganda they spew. He is clearly nothing but controlled opposition.
You are part of the cartoon Rick.
You are part of the cartoon Rick.
BoP
You raise some very valid points. But when you have no resistance from any of the other players on MSNBC of course "the devils advocate" when everyone else is wearing hip boots is going to look attractive to those with half a mind! Santelli will never be Jim Grant or Marc Faber but it's better to have somebody anybody on that network crying wolf as a counter balance to the rest of them even if it is canned!
To your point on the issue of integrity and being part of a cartoon...
Think of him as the "Edward Snowden" of MSNBC financial news. He's the town crier who keeps delivering the bad news and the stories that the big guys already informed us about years ago but that everyone or should I say the majority still chooses to ignore anyway!
Listen all you critics.
Rick is a bond guy. That's all you need to know. A bondito. A big swinging dick. One of the good guys. He's got a great platform and knows it. If management wanted to muzzle him, he'd be picked off lickety split in no time. And in his mind (think like a bond guy for a second... pretend you're that smart and devious) CNBS is the best platform because he has such an unlimited supply of weak minded dipshit for brains people to use as his very own tools and foils.
What the fuck more could the guy ask for?
Nothing!
Bond people rule!
BTW. On Wall Street everybody thinks the bond guys are fucking nuts. The bond guys think that the muni guys are fucking nuts. The muni guys don't think. Go figure.
knuk
Observation(s) and point well taken.
Thx
I've been a "bond guy" longer than Santelli - and as long as I've been a "bond guy" it's been the Fed that's been the 800 lb gorilla. Whether it was Volcker's October surprise or Greenspan as the "maestro,"
Now, we may disagree with the Fed's policies, and that's fair game. But to act like the Fed isn't letting the market "price it in" (whatever it is they should be "pricing in") is truly disingenuous - or just plain wrong.
The Fed always sets the short rate. And sometimes tries to influence the long rate. This is absolutely not new and for him to pretend otherwise is odd.
Babaloo, I tend to agree with you on the longer end of the term structure.
Regardless, the long end is by and large a beast of inflationary expectations, pure and simple.
I'd cast your mind back to Volcker's Saturday Night Massacre. Expectations were still rooted in higher inflationary expectations and took years to change, but truly remained the province of participants. BUT, his change in operating policy (letting the funds rate float and targeting money base/supply) did inject a volatility and uncertainty premium into markets. Yet again, you're indeed right, it was the market that set the rates.
I believe and agree with you that he is stretching on that point.
However, participants today by and large have no concept of (unless you're in your 60's) true bear markets. Have no real concept of a less than "supportive" nursemaid Fed, the put option of options. Nobody out there but a bunch of us old geezers has a clue anymore as to how to read the Fed.
Ah, the days of matched sales and buying 3 to 5 year coupon reading of entrails.
The Fed gives no indica anymore other than horseshit sophist prognostications of propagandized nebulous blowhard empty talk balloons which change from speaker to speaker, day to day.
Methinks that is to what he refers.
(Loved the comment about can't even find a map... Liesman is a useless jagoff)
Thanks for that little thread.
knucks...
So, if i may sum up your posts (most of these questions are rhetorical) you are telling me that there is a profound difference between the Market of the 1960s and 1970s then there is today?
Do you mean to tell me that there was no "supportive" Fed back in the 1970s as there is today?
So the Markets back in the 1970s were freer than today's?
So let me see if I have this clear. In the past few years we have had extremely controlled matkets? Is it true that most participants, including Santelli, have no idea as to what a free market is?
But most here say that they want a "Free Market", isn't that correct?
Now Santelli states, "if The Fed hasn't made up its mind" about when and how rates will rise, "how can markets 'price it in'?" Does that sound as if he wants a Free Market or does that sound as if he is whining because there is NO GUIDANCE from the Controllers of the Market? (YOU ARE ON YOUR OWN. EVERY MAN FOR HIMSELF.)
And if that is the case does that mean the the FOMC Minutes have basically stated that there is now a Free Market, without any forward guidance, and that the Fed has capitulated their leadership as they have lost control?
Do we now have a rudderless ship sailing into a Perfect Financial Storm? What does that spell Knucks?
D...I...S...A...S...T...E...R?
Yes. We are headed into an adventure. Yes it will be interesting times. Don't you agree?
I think Santelli real purpose is to keep those opposed to CNBC watching them. They suck so bad they deliberately bring him on to self-cream their own anchors, and increase their own popularity.
They are probably benchmarking how popular he is to determine where to steer the next propaganda pieces.
Babaloo ... Ummm, first you call the FED the 800# ape, then you say the FED is "letting" the markets price in something. Rates are ZERO. Trillions of $$$ were ginned up to support (buy) the bond markets and financials. This is not fine tuning, right? You do get that, correct? Santelli's point is that there is no real market, just something that the FED wants to look like a market. If the FED steps away, the entire ediface will vaporize into pink mist. That is the reality.
In re-reading my comment it seems I wasn't as clear as I could have been.
What I was trying to say is that the Fed has never really let the market "price in" economic fundamentals. They are always influencing the credit markets. Sometimes more, sometimes less. But to my knowledge they've never let the market determine the shirt rate.
Thus, Santelli acting like this is somehow new or novel is at odds with their history and reality.
"..A big swinging dick..."
Haha funny.
He's only like 5'2" or something..
WTF? Lol
Takes one to know one Knuks? All joking aside, Santelli is a good guy that gets paid to shill.
To maintain ratings in MSM you have to have a nice pair of tits, be able to relay pre-digested propaganda or scream like Cramer, in which case it doesn't really matter you're saying.
Fail to comply and you're going straight into Keith Olbermann basket.
He's the guy they have tell the truth even though they make him look like a nut so the are right with God in their mind.
Ratigan left cause he knew that exentually he'd end up stabbing some stupid MF'er in the eye.
They keep Santelli around cause people actually want to watch him.
"if The Fed hasn't made up its mind" about when and how rates will rise, "how can markets 'price it in'?"
No discussion, however, about how fucking absurd it is that the market's have to even price in what the ass hats at the fed decide... free markets? Capitalism? Are you fucking kidding me? Our markets cant do ANYTHING without figuring out what a HAND FULL of dipshits are going to do with rates and despite this there's actually laymens out there who would say we actually live a free market capitalist system?
Jesus H. Christ... IT IS A CARTOON... the Austrians will be proven right and the Fed will one day lose control of this. Until then stack on!
+1000 post of the day
Federal Reserve wants to be like NAR. Always a good time to buy stocks because it always goes up.
Just like housing pre-2007.
Wants to be like NAR, ends up like Nair.
Join the club Rick.
Controlled opposition.
there gonna raze rates,
"how can markets 'price it in'?"
Aaaah... I see what you did there...
So basically, even putting controlled opposition SANTELLI in front of the camera, in an offbeat way, gives misplaced acknowledgement of 'MARKETS' [as if they're some kind of unmanipulated entity that are capable of PRICING IN things due to some kind of fucking John Nash 'Game Theory' that doesn't exist in the UNREALITY that we live in]...
I was listening to the radio today & on came this daily blurb from the fucking bought & paid for Tom Brokaw [about the 'State of America']... Today's topic was about the Keystone Pipeline...
In 30 seconds he managed to:
- Underscore GLOBAL WARMING, actually, as an issue [laughably tying it to the debate]... As if the motherfucker were talking about fucking boxcutters & passports found in rubble piles of smoldering nanothermite, & buildings collapsing [freefall] into their own footprints...
- Talk about 'increasing' American ENERGY INDEPENDENCE [which is a non starter ~ but since Brokaw mentions it, sheeps take it as an automatic]
- Frame the tired old RED/BLUE fight dynamics
- Demonize China and underscore 'American Exceptionalism'
While FAILING to breathe a word about:
- Warren Buffet
- Petrodollars
- Oligarch puppetry & bribery
GET ME OFF THIS FUCKING PLANET!!!
Tom Brokaw = shill, a mouthpiece of the NWO/Kleptoligarchy.
A delusional dope or a rabid propagandist, take your pick.
Yes
"While FAILING to breathe"
Shit I thought you were gonna say he died right then and there on air. Maybe next time...
Shit man,
You just gave away the mission statement of the very "team" you are so accurately berating,
They really do: "Want you off this Planet"
They got us to suck all the wealth out and stack it up neat little and not so little piles... Now they don't need all the help.
It is getting close to that time to where they release that big Raid Fogger and clean out the colony of now useless eaters.
After todays blood in the streets crash, I sure hope Bullard intervenes..... Hell the DOW was down 0.01% how can that be allowed?
Man, this is doo-dah shit.
Poor Santelli, getting tired of this shit just like the rest of us.
Not too tired to collect his pay check, I notice.
Guy's a fucking cartoon, just like the rest of them.
Manufacture of Dissent.
He knows his time and everyone else's time at CNBS is coming to an end. I think they send the Tyler's these videos whenever their viewer ship slips into the single digits.
He should quit ON AIR, like that Fuck It chick up in Alaska.
Until then he gets no respect from me.
Santelli son, whats the point trying to give yourself an anurism on air?
Why dont you take an ice pick into work at the NYSE and fucking use it you little fucking cunt?
You lot are being played from left to right, up and fucking down, and back to front.
You think this little rat looking fucker gives two fucks about you or your money? Bar getting you as high as a kite as he is with emotion and bollocks? Get fucked, and start talking sense.
This wanker is part of the problem you lot want solved. Remember that.
Stupid little fucking cunt.
;-)
Why don't you say what you *really* feel - let it all out man!!
'Its better that they profit than lose'....for anyone to profit in the market, someone has to lose.
It's pretty simple what he is saying..........
Keep stacking is what he was saying without saying. Just saying.
You could not have said it better.
Bugs Bunny: "How many lumps do you want?"
Pete Puma: "Oh...three or four..."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zih4MH_hMV4
("Looney Tunes", 1:08, link opens in new tab/window)
Seems clear to me.
Bush: ‘I’ve Abandoned Free Market Principles To Save The Free Market System’.
No offence Rick, but didn't the fed just close the "open faucet" in October?
Obviously the Fed. still has the faucet wide open!
Reverse REPO's and swaps... The snarky way of putting lipstick on a pig.
Where's the talk about Fed. balance sheet reduction? Where's the talk about BUYING SOME SHORT TERM DEBT/BONDS, To increase lending and the money supply? MOAR smoke and mirrors.
FWIW Belgium has U.S. nukes parked on it's soil. I was reading a financial report the other night and stumbled across the information. I remember the number was in the mid to high (20's) and they were tactical.
Corps level assets. Always been tactical packages deployed in Europe. No big deal unless someone wants to try their luck with an avalanche assault scenario.
You're conflating (2) different issues. Additionally, I was just reiterating Belgium's willingness to comply with their NATO~ Squid Masters.
It's priced in because it has been pre-programmed in by those stupid, idiotic HFT algos and the mathematic engineers who wrote the "code."
See Tyler's earlier post today.
I always enjoy Rick's Rants. :)
Santelli is a useful idiot. He is allowed to spew in order to act as a safety valve for the rest of those who are awake and can see the charade. They get to have their views aired but since he comes across as an hysterical buffoon, no one is obligated to take him seriously. Santelli is a sort of reverse shill. He deflects the truth by presenting it as an over-the-top rant that can then be dismissed.
I don't trust Santelli's integrity. It's an act.
This is why Hitlery will be the next president. No one outside the inner circle will be allowed in at this point.
'jump in here guys'...subtext...'say something or people will stop believeing the storyline we are feeding them...'
He reminds me of all the crisis actors in the psyops and hoaxes saying "It was like I was in a movie"
bonds are no longer a safe investment
losses have been baked into them all at this point.
If anything but supply and demand sets interest rates, it is not a free market. FED=Socialism. I'd like to hear Santelli say that.
The Fed needs to be PUT IN PRISON !
Can't believe I am writing this, six years hence but what if the Fed simply cannot raise rates? Not for fear but because the transmission mechanicsm is broken. What if ZIRP actually is a market interest rate in the depths of a deflationary collapse, obscured thanks to the Fed's only remaining lever, asset prices?
If the Fed went full retard Reverse Repo tomorrow, I would wager yields lower by the New Year. Sorry y'all but I've thrown in the towel, UST & MBS will be bid to the moon until the wheels fall off.
The only lever the Fed has left is IOER and it is a one time play and not in the direction being touted. The deflationary collapse is here. We are all Japanese now.
Maybe, but ain't that wind just divine?
Listen.
Thank you. This is the way the comments use to be, before all the asswipes took over.
Bangalore:"Thank you. This is the way the comments use to be, before all the asswipes took over."
sez MR 12 week asswipe.
LOL.
I can't believe I am answering your question this way, but...
-----
Would you lend your life savings to people at 0% right now? Or even at 4% for 30 years to someone to buy a home?
Your answer to those questions ARE the answers you are looking for (the market interest rate).
I don't know about you, but at this point in history, I wouldn't lend my savings to anyone for 10%, for 20%, even for 50% --- especially for 30 years!!!
NOBODY can be trusted any more, so maybe the question should be posed in reverse. Like, would anyone who actually has accumulated SAVINGS that they EARNED by PRODUCING SOMETHING REAL over many years... loan that money to ANYONE at ANY RATE ???
Note that the question is TOTALLY different for a central bank, or for your neighborhood bank. The fiat debt they "loan" to people is created out of nonexistent thin air the moment they credit the borrowers account. That cannot possibly BE a "market interest rate", since nobody had to produce anything, save anything, or for that matter, make any rational judgements (since the "lender" will immediately bundle a bunch of these fiat fake "loans" together and sell them to some pension fund).
Sooooooooo glad I do not watch CNBullshit anymore. Living in the Chicago area I know a few people who know Santelli. Jimmy Iuorio is the brother of one of my best friends and he gets a nice little bit of change for doing the CNBullshit segments. He is given an appropraite amount of shit when he shows up at his restaurant.
It is really hard to tell what is Bullshit and what is simply naivate. Is Santelli for real or just playing his part? IMHO, a little bit of both and it pays the bills.
It's not a cartoon. It's just that the creme de la creme don't know how to create wealth (i.e. creating capital faster than destroying it). So buy stocks at higher and higher levels. There is no opportunity cost because, again, they cannot create wealth. Fed lends a helping hand.
Santelli IS the cartoon!
C'mon.
Listen.
It always amazed me, the hypocrisy. "We hate fucking CNBC and the money whores. We HATE THEM!"
Santelli, Santelli, Santelli!!! YEA CNBC!!
is...santelli....controlled opposition?
if he so vehemently disagrees with his bosses, why does he stay...
Those who sold slaves were, by law, to provide all details, including defects, habits along with height, weight, age, number of teeth, number of children, origins, and history recorded from time of slave's birth. Some slaves were released after 10 years if they had acquired points. If a slave tried to attack or kill his master, all slaves under the master's house were killed. Rome.
This is no cartoon. Americans are being set up by the bankers and their own elected officials to be sold as slaves to China in lieu of money owed and they are doing it WITH GLEE.
You people better wake the fuck up and I mean NOW or you will be forced into slavery. People in China are jumping from tops of factories because they ARE NOT ALLOWED TO LEAVE THEIR JOB and a contract to full for the product they are making.
Listen.
Hope so. I will buy that "nwmen" guy from the Chinese and bring him here to India to "do a little cleaning".
This guy needs to stfu and buy some spx.
Meh, he is the equivalent of a "heel" in pro wrasslin'.
I found something interesting in Bussines Insider, a guy who was reading Russian media for seven days!
Kkkkkkkkkkkkkkk!
If continued for seven more days circumcision it would be undone!
Kkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk!
What if Zerohedge is in fact a propaganda tool supported by the bankers to keep the peasants out of the market while the Fat Cats grow richer by the day? Makes some sense. They were playing craps with more money than exists in the universe, and when it blew up, "they" forced Joe Sixpack to bail them out. Joe Sixpack then envisions the end of society and starts buying gold and guns and stocking his bunker with horrible tasting survival food while the Fat Cats head back to the tables. Don't worry, they won't make us bail them out again...next time they'll just take the money out of our checking accounts and IRA's.
http://432parkavenue.com/?state=views
http://432parkavenue.com/availability.html
Penthouse owners will be paying thirty grand a month in taxes and fees.
What if ZeroHedge is a place where I tell people like you to fuck off? I am just asking. There are plenty of other financial websites that you could go blog on if you wanted to. We do not fuck with those websites so you can go and not have to worry about us one lick. But you can't do that now can you? Why does ZeroHedge bother you so much? Tell us. Because we can rip you a new asshole on anything economic.
This is all you can come up with?
"Joe Sixpack then envisions the end of society and starts buying gold and guns and stocking his bunker with horrible tasting survival food while the Fat Cats head back to the tables."
Oh hell, now I will change my mind and become an automaton because I should think like you do? Don't bother with us. If you want to fuck with us then come up with a reason why we scare you so badly. What is that reason? I know the reason. We are not going to change our minds. We fight with each other even on occasion.
I don't know for sure what ZH is but one thing is for sure: I have met some very good folks here. People that think like I do. I can stare at the wall all day long and not say a word out of spite. I do not belong on HuffPo or any of the rest of those types of websites. I can not conform to status quo. I just does not work.
One thing you do get on ZeroHedge is that someone is going to post an intelligent comment that you can learn some things from.
Listen.
Fight Club Bitchez!
I saw an American show once, around Christmas time, one of those kids shows that they play on TeeVee every year what Americans call a "CLASSIC".
Anyhow, in one scene Santa would send all the "MISFIT" toys to this one island somewhere up by the north pole. I think it was called misfit island.
I hope I spelled everything correct.
Cult of santelli asks: Dear leader, who should we kill first?
Ballistic for what ? Haven't learnt from ZH that price discovery has collapsed.
On even simple metrics - How do you price some paper ahead when you face a printing press suppressing int rate at zero today ? You assume zero in perpeituity or you assume that the printing press runs out of ink.
Rick is yelling at clowns in circuses ?