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What Do College Undergrads Spend Their Student Loans On: High-School Classes
Over the weekend we closed the chapter on the "mystery" of America's collapsing labor force and the record 90+ million Americans out of the labor force. As Pew reported, confirming what we had said all along, it has little to nothing to do with Boomers retiring - simply because under ZIRP they can't afford to retire - and everything to do with Millennials staying in school because they can't find the well-paying jobs they had expected, raking up $1.2 trillion (and exponentially rising) in government-funded student debt in the process. To wit:
More and more Americans are outside the labor force entirely. Who are they? According to the October jobs report, more than 92 million Americans — 37% of the civilian population aged 16 and over — are neither employed nor unemployed, but fall in the category of “not in the labor force.” That means they aren’t working now but haven’t looked for work recently enough to be counted as unemployed. While that’s not quite a record — figures have been a bit higher earlier this year — the share of folks not in the labor force remains near all-time highs.
You might think legions of retiring Baby Boomers are to blame, or perhaps the swelling ranks of laid-off workers who’ve grown discouraged about their re-employment prospects. While both of those groups doubtless are important (though just how important is debated by labor economists), our analysis of Bureau of Labor Statistics data suggests another key factor: Teens and young adults aren’t as interested in entering the work force as they used to be, a trend that predates the Great Recession.
But that's just the beginning. Because as we have also covered on various occasions in the past, there is a just as important question of just what these "students" spend their money on. Among the items revealed: "A U.S. Middle District Court indictment alleges that Price spent much of the loan money on crack cocaine, cars, motorcycles, jewelry, tattoos and video games." And iPhones of course, because someone has to indirectly provide US subsidies to the NSA's favorite company (read "NSA Mocks Apple's "Zombie" Customers; Asks "Your Target Is Using A BlackBerry? Now What?").
Now we know one more thing that America's young adults, of whom some 24% expect that their debt will ultimately be forgiven, are blowing Uncle Sam's debt on. The answer: high-school level classes.
According to the WSJ, "college students are increasingly spending federal financial aid and taking on debt for high school-level courses that don’t count toward a degree, despite mounting evidence the courses are ineffective and may contribute to higher dropout rates."
Shocking? Well not really: after all when student debt is easier to procure than subprime loans in 2005, and when nobody in government actually checks if it is used prudently, is there any wonder the same individuals who recklessly will spend money they can never repay on anything but their future, will spend it on the dumbest possible things? Perhaps it is more surprising that they used it for "noble" purposes in the first place.
The number of college students taking at least one remedial course rose to 2.7 million in the 2011-2012 academic year from 1.04 million in 1999-2000, federal data show. During the same span, the amount of federal grants spent by undergraduates enrolled in at least one remedial course rose 380%, after inflation, Education Department figures show. There was also a drastic rise in remedial students taking on student debt.
The one social class most "enslaved" by this "not quite free" debt handout? Poor, underprivileged students of course, those who can least afford to graduate with tens of thousands in debt.
The trends reflect a sharp rise over the past decade in enrollment at community colleges, which disproportionately serve low-income, minority and older populations. About 40% of students entering community colleges enroll in at least one remedial course, according to the Education Department; only about 1 in 4 of them will earn a degree or certificate.
“You clearly see that a big part of the problem is that students of color, first-generation students in low socioeconomic status are getting stuck” in remedial courses, said Eloy Oakley, president of Long Beach City College in Southern California. “They’re getting placed in these courses and they’re not coming out.”
Students are typically placed in remedial courses for English and math and because they score poorly on standardized tests. Federal law permits them to spend financial aid on as much as a year’s worth of remediation.
Ironically, the very classes this debt is spent to finance essentially assure that the student will never even succeed in graduating college:
Academics and senior officials within the Education Department increasingly view the remedial courses themselves as a major barrier to college completion, particularly among minorities. Many students become discouraged and could succeed without remediation, while others could benefit from shorter, more-targeted catch-up sessions, research shows.
Multiple studies have concluded that, for most students, remediation either hurts or has no effect on their odds of earning a college degree or certificate. The studies have compared the outcomes of borderline students—those just above and just below the cutoff for getting into college-level courses. In a 2012 National Bureau of Economic Research paper, two Columbia University researchers found that students who appeared to have been misplaced in remediation were 8% more likely to drop out than those who went directly into college courses.
As a result, some schools have finally started analyzing what the IRR of remedial schooling is: Long Beach City College is experimenting with how it assesses students and places them in remedial classes. Before 2012, it placed all students based on how they scored on a standardized test. Since then, the school has launched a program to place students from local high schools based on their grade-point averages, which officials believe are a better predictor of how students will perform in college-level courses.
Within the program, the share of first-year students at LBCC going directly into college-level coursework has tripled, to 39% for English and 32% for math. And the school finds that on average, students who would have been slated for remediation are performing as well as others.
Leangkheng Ouk, 20 years old, was slated to take remedial English and math at the school because she performed poorly on her standardized test, despite being a B student in high school. Under the new system, she went directly into college-level courses in 2012 and earned a 3.8 GPA before transferring this year. She now attends California State University, Long Beach, where she is on track to earn a bachelor’s degree in business management.
“I was glad they placed me in the higher courses actually on my level, so I don’t waste time and can be able to transfer in two years,” said Ms. Ouk, a Cambodian national and U.S. permanent resident who is the first member of her family to go to college. Ms. Ouk has used scholarship money, federal aid and wages earned from a part-time job to cover her education. “If I was placed in a remedial class I would have to stay in LBCC longer. I would have used my financial aid grants.
And now, after years of delays and long after the student loan bubble reached unprecedented proportions, the Government is finally deciding to "take a look":
Now, the high dropout rate among remedial-education students—along with a sharp rise in student debt—is fueling debate about whether the government should be more stringent in awarding student aid. Critics—ranging from some think-tank academics and conservatives to a trustee of a community-college system in Texas—say aid should be targeted toward students who are better-prepared.
Keep in mind this is the same government that lied to "stupid" Americans to pass Obamacare. Then again, considering what these same Americans spend their unsecured, garnishable debt on, perhaps Dr. Gruber's real and only crime was getting caught.
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I'm waiting for the student loan jubilee. I suspect that will be the deal with the devil this generation makes. Uncle Sam forgives the loans in exchange for a life of servitude paying for those currently on Social Security/SSI/Disability/Medicaid/Medicare etc.
<You scratch my back and I'll wash old pop's ass.>
30k here, same. Post college I make as much as I did pre college. Minimum wage. it's been 6 years and I haven't made a payment yet. They can't garnish my wages cause I'm so far below the poverty level.
I'm willing to cut a deal though, I'll work for the government.
our "youth" are willingly becoming lifelong serf to the bankers. and, all it costs them is a new iPhone/iPad every 18 months. wait until these people get the bill in 5 years.
This was inevitable, the result of the ideological push to send any kid to college who wants to go regardless of natural ability or temprament. If liberals get their way about that, I think we’re going to see more and more printed fiat spent on babying "college students" through the things we were always simply expected to do for ourselves as adults. Moar administrators will be paid basically to follow up on them to go to class, do your homework, stay away from too much alcohol or drugs, and play nice with other students. Of course they’ll be called counselors, diversity trainers, etc. but that’s what they’ll be, babysitters en loco parentis.
This particular Tyler (non-native-English-speaking Tyler) could use some remedial English classes, as well as many ZH commenters. The language is being debased as fast as the currency.
Bitchez.
This bodes well for the future of Social Security. You know, the ponzi where the young pay for the old.
Once they fully implement 'Common Core' they'll be taking grammar school classes in college.
I remember the good old days in college when the only people taking remedial courses were the people with sports scholarships and the children of alumni.....
The Derek Zoolander Center for Kids Who Can't Read Good and Wanna Learn to Do Other Stuff Good Too, bitchez.
Who needs remedial grammar when you have Weird Al?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Gv0H-vPoDc
You're right. Sending everybody to college is the new goal. Statistics show that college grads earn more. Since correlation is taken as causation, people think that sending everyone to college will solve the country's economic problems. What sending everyone to college really does is erode the results. When everyone goes to college, let's see what happens to the income differential between college grads and those not attending. Oh yeh, there won't be anyone not attending, so there's nothing to worry about. Two chickens in every pot; college for everyone, and debt forgiveness for all! What could be wrong with that? Still, when college is free, I have the uneasy feeling that it will be worth every penny.
Yes!
When we sent the brightest 5% to university they ended up making north of $100,000 afterwards.
Now we send everyone to university, so they all can earn $100,000+ !!!
Grade inflation and trophies for everyone (just for showing up?)...Stupid is as stupid does.
You're right. Sending everybody to college is the new goal. Statistics show that college grads earn more. Since correlation is taken as causation, people think that sending everyone to college will solve the country's economic problems. What sending everyone to college really does is erode the results. When everyone goes to college, let's see what happens to the income differential between college grads and those not attending. Oh yeh, there won't be anyone not attending, so there's nothing to worry about. Two chickens in every pot; college for everyone, and debt forgiveness for all! What could be wrong with that? Still, when college is free, I have the uneasy feeling that it will be worth exactly what people are asked to pay.
GLBT degree is highly recommended for Govt jobs.
Freeky Fairyland
if it was only you would be different ... but everyone is ready to cut a deal
few years ago, Hillary was proposing free tuition if work for government for 10 years ... who knows how many applicants they got because the idea disappeared right awsy
I think 3 out of my 10 friends make more than 40k/year.
So does that mean they want 70% of us in ad hoc? I think it does.
they want everyone on the treadmill, in thrall to debt and consumerism.
This is stimulus spending at its finest.
we prop up lazy underacheivers and they have lazy underacheiving kids.. this is the net result
Cog
One way or another, that debt is going to be written off. That which can't be repaid, won't be. Rather it is done as a vote buying scheme by slimy politicians desperate for re election , or in return for servitude remains to be seen. But absent a massive economic rebound( impossible in my opinion, there is just too much debt to grow out of), most of these people won't be getting jobs that will allow them to ever pay it off, so the govt can either just accept the inevitable losses, or once that realization sets in, they can try to appear magnanimous and kind by announcing debt forgiveness.
No need to forgive the loans. Young people already pay the bills of old farts.
The movie Idocracy is turning into a documentary
yep ... a point i've made all along
a lot of student loan $$s DON'T go to the institution of higher learning ... but into the pockets of Apple, Papa Johns, Starbucks, etc.
and the taxpayer will end up eating some of these loans ... more corporate welfare
So what would GDP and retail numbers be without record student loans? It is another form of money printing as CD points out with the upcoming forgiveness jubilee.
check out this Saturn V launch of student loans
http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/FGCCSAQ027S
A jubilee would be highly deflationary, as someone holds that asset.
Agree that loans are basically another form of QE, anything that expands the debt supply.
pods
The real reason for the student loan program is economic stimulus. Many towns survive almost entirely from the money brought in by student borrowing. Kill the student loans, kill these local economies. Many of them.
Blow 101
Tyler's thanks for getting rid of the invisible app hijack
"Price spent much of the loan money on crack cocaine, cars, motorcycles, jewelry, tattoos and video games."
Does this mean the debt can be discharged in bankruptcy?
thank god he isnt smoking cigarettes
Good thing that juniors cannot sign for a loan, at this rate you would soon have kindergarten loans for exceptional toddlers. Now that I think about it, how come the banks have not yet constructed "parenthood" loans so that people THINKING of having a baby can easily jumpstart the expensive procedure of upbringing?
Toddler Loans indeed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Li0no7O9zmE
so much you can squeeze from a stone ... not much left anyway
"how come the banks have not yet constructed "parenthood" loans"
Because soon, "parenthood" as it was known and understood not so long ago, will be an entirely quaint and archaic reference. We hurtle toward the time when "parenting" is understood as a formal occupation/job-title where people work for the state to guide youngsters into the world that the state defines.
Parenting, at least for the middle and lower classes, has always been a public service. You do it for the government. The millions who can't figure this out form a massive intellectual underclass which sustains the status quo.
Thank you John Dewey, NEA, and teachers unions.
Obviously, these youts will need to be Common Cored. They can then borrow moar because they will get even moar stupider.
I live in a university town. the two main institutions have for the last decade bought and renovated dozens of buildings. dorms are like 4 star hotels, stone facades, copper roofs and iron gates. When are the universities going to be held accountable for unnecessary opulence, wasting subsidies and gold plated pensions
It's the same here.
Yes I find it amusing; gee, look at the dorms, like condos, the brand-new buildings ... while the product cannot find a job and is in fact dumber after 5 years of indoctrination.
or the gee whiz 500 million dollar aircraft ... that choke their pilots to death, need an engine overhaul at 2.75 hours of flight time, and no wars won since '45.
I think I'm going to out back and dig a series of ratholes ... I've a theory they'll fill up overnight with $100 bills.
Like corporations, much of the spending and 'largess' is going to the top 'executives'. The President of my alma mater makes over a million dollars a year - a fact that must be annoying more than just me - when I mentioned this to the poor kid making annual fundraising calls, they said they'd heard that from more than one person.
Somehow in America we've reversed things completely - the 'managers' - who seem to 'manage' only for their own benefit - are the ones reaping all the rewards while the actual workers get screwed. In the case of Universities, fewer and fewer tenured professors are making less overall while most teaching is now done by 'associate' professors - ill paid part timers or the TA's (even worse paid grad students). Now I had classes taught by TA's almost 40 years ago but in these cases, well known name professors were teaching lectures while the TA's handled the associated smaller class sessions. This was for basics like Calc, Physics and Chem. You even had full profesors teaching intro classes in things like Accounting. All Humanities and Social Sciencs classes were taught by professors - soem truly exceptoional (and almost wasted for the Engineering school I atttended). In more advanced classes you had full professors teaching thing like Operations Research. AND the TOTAL cost for my degree was less than what I pay for ONE YEAR for my kids.
"Somehow in America we've reversed things completely - the 'managers' - who seem to 'manage' only for their own benefit - are the ones reaping all the rewards while the actual workers get screwed."
This is occurring in all corporations. It's so good for managers in the corporation I am employed with they don't even have a office. All their "work" is accomplished at home on conference calls. Contacting them requires leaving a message. It's so bad I didn't recognise a manager in our area........ They now plant their mug shots on the endless emails sent from them.
I believe this is more prevelant than many might think. Managers are sucking the 'life' out of their companies via bonuses and other programs. They will end up in the corporate trash heap with the Grants, Wilsons, KMarts and Montgomery Wards, soon Sear and all the rest.
Which means even less yobs for our grads.
When students realize that going to college may be a waste of time, and get out and self-educate themselves like some of the greats of the past. Isaac Newton didn't learn calculus: he INVENTED it, to help him solve problems he was working on. You don't always learn the best things you know from a teacher. Self research and initiative will take you places others aren't. If people are graduating college and finding the degree does not automatically produce a high-paying job, then the first lesson that should be learned is exactly that. Are Americans smart enough to learn from the mistakes of others? Apparently not, as they keep signing up to learn how to take on debt. That's the lesson here. You learned how to take on massive debt. Now, about that job...
Parents I talk with all think they have no choice but to send their kids, willing or not, to the highest ranking university that will have them. Many of these parents are cajoling the kids to go, with promises of paying for all tuition and expenses, car, etc. It's clearly that the parents are afraid, not the students, of what will happen if they don't go to college.
"unnecessary opulence, wasting subsidies and gold plated pensions"
Yes, behold the growth of OPEB (under noncurrent liabilities).
http://www.ou.edu/controller/fss/dwnload/2012_fs.pdf
http://www.ou.edu/controller/fss/dwnload/2013_fs.pdf
Never.
I call this the "Pre-Requisite Scam"
Lets put it this way, 80% of college attendees will probably spend 2/3 of their time in college completing pre-requisites, which essentially amount to re-doing High-School.
Because the colleges don't accept high school courses as having been up to "their standard".
So pretty much the first 2 years atleast of college are re-do's of the last 2 years of High School.
It's a scam colleges made up to keep people locked there longer paying out more tuition...
Colleges are all about trapping people in debt, and prolonging their programs as long as possible to milk the loan money, then when the student can no longer get loans or pay, they boot you out and take your money.
I got lucky, I skipped all the pre-requisites by getting waivers..... otherwise I would of never graduated and would of spent 3x as much on school, the only way to escape the pre-requisite trap is to make connections with people on the board/keep bugging them for waivers and exemptions from all the useless expensive shit . . . its just the way the college loan sucking mafia operate.
I ended up taking most of the last year semester courses in my first 4 semesters with all the waivers and exemptions, then when i went to graduate I didn't even need the pre-requisites because I had sufficient credits (so I never really ever took them).
Not all colleges will let you get away with that I presume . . . I attended a CUNY school, its probably one of the most corrupt institutions when it comes to loan farming students.
All the art colleges are the biggest scams/ponzi schemes, the board members all drive Ferrari's in those schools...
The CUNY/SUNY schools are there to farm student loans and pay teachers/pensions/ etc administrative expenses (parking permits in some of these schools range for 100~200$! and the lots are empty lol. . . just so you can get perspective.
Its all about $$$$$$ not education, a very small minority ever get a useful degree.
would "have", Dre4, would "have"....
Not necessarily true. High schools teaching AP classes to students willing and able to do the work produce grads who can cut almost a year off their college requirements - I've see that here. The TOP high school students are often MORE prepared and knowledgeable than their parents and grandparents were.
However many high schools want to make their stats look better so they push AP classes on unqualified kids who end up getting 3's instead of the 4's or 5's colleges want for giving credit. I'm also seeing THAT here. This is a TOTALLY separate issue form the huge number taking truly 'remedial' classes.
The great majority of kids taking remedial classes should NOT be in college and NEVER would have gone to college in the past.
The jobs that used to go to the 'less academic' minded in our society have been off shored with our industrial base - or are going to cheap 'imported' labor.
The agriculture jobs that existed a century ago are largely gone - automated. Farms are big business, not family enterprises now. The jobs that DO still exist - picking and other 'stoop' work - are going to cheap workers, often illegal or otherwise 'imported' under some program. Frankly, few US workers woud do these jobs today - yes, the unskilled ARE 'spoiled'.
The factory jobs that were the foundation of the US bluecollar working class are gone - shipped overseas. The few factory jobs that remain are often much higher skilled - programming robots or running CNC machines. Few of todays' HS grads have the skills needed for these jobs and few have access to the programs that teach these skills. Even when you have the needed skills, empoyers want to pay as cheaply as possible for ANY 'blue collar' workers (while offering NO job security) - providing little incentive for people to pursue these jobs.
There are 'good' jobs that remain, that are 'anchored' and CAN'T be moved overseas - plumbers, electricians and electricians and such. Yet American schools rarely teach for these trades these days and the skills required are often higher. A car mechanic now probably has more continuing ed classes than anyone else with computers and new tech coming in all the time. Your car isn't likely to EVER need a ring job or valve job these cays but have fun figuring out that electrical issue. 'Auto shop' classes were dead and gone 20 years ago when my kids started HS - along with wood shop and metal shop. I'm seeing more andmore immigrants in these positions compared to 20 years back. The licensed electrician or plumber may be American but the workers now are immigrant. These workers are far better skilled than the 'apprentice' nephew or whatever that you saw in the past - someone who 'fell into' the job because they didn't want to go to college but were otherwise not motivated or particularly intelligent.
At the same time, the old social contract between employers and employees is GONE. Used to be that an employer veiwed employee as long term assets and was willing to invest time and effort into training employees - and would keep that employee for life. Now employers don't want to spend time and effort on people - viewing them as short term 'replaceable parts' to a larger 'machine' to be discarded when unneeded. Truth is that some (many) jobs NEED a long term 'on the job' educational process if you are to do it well but the employer (and often the employee as well) are unwilling to invest the time and effort.
Because of the intensified competition for the 'unskilled' jobs that DO remain in our society, empoyers are effectively REQUIRING people entering the work force to have a college degree - even when that degree is effectively meaningless or does NOTHING to prepare them for the jobs they are going to hold. YOu DON'T need a college degree to work retail - even as a store manager. You DON'T need it to be in sales of any kind.
I've been going through family photos and things - filling in the family tree as well. I'm the first in my direct line to go to college - the only one of three kids (one wentto a 2 year tech school). My generation - born in the 50's - was the first to go to college in any number. More than half did so but most were focused on real 'job' type degrees - accounting, engineering, nursing and similar degrees. Even the few Liberal Arts types usually got Business minors. MOST were tradesmen for over the previous 100 years - and the further back you go the less formal education they had. Tilesetters taught the trade to their sons and their sons. Lots of carpenters - more and more specialized over time going into boatbuilding and then owning a shipyard. Lots of printers on both sides - one in the mid 1800's apprenticed out at 12 to learn the trade eventually marrying the boss'd daughter. Fifty or one hundred years ago a tradesman was taught by a father or perhaps apprenticed out to learn a trade. They learned their job well, they really KNEW their trade and were proud of it. They may not have really 'wanted' to be a carpenter or tilesetter or printer but that was a far better job to have than plain old 'laborer' and it was easier to learn the 'family' trade than go elsehere. There were not many alternatives and ANY trade was better than none. You also see clerks and shopkeepers moving up over time to own businesses. They learned the business, saved and then bought their own. You see 'salesmen' - a less physically demanding job more suited to some personalities but they usually worked far longer hours than most of their peers - earnings being directly tied to sales. (the 1940 census in particular has lots of detailed info).
People in the 1930's and 40's MOVED to find work far more than their predecessors - fall out of the Great Depression. Before that families tended to be concentrated in places. BUT you also saw that people did NOT live on their own until married - and even then may have lived with parents or close by. Some older unmarried family members remained with parents into old age or lived with siblings or other family members. Grandparents lived wioth sons and daughters and grandchildren when widowed. The term 'boarder' - renting a room (or even just a bed) in another family's home and sharing meals with them - was common through the 1940's. It is rarely heard today. Single 20 somethings are out living on their own or in a shared apartment (though that trend is reversing with a bad economy - many are 'boomeranging' back home.
I've seen a few family members and friends move to find work and take advantage of 'booms' over the last 40 years - a welder on the Alaska pipeline, another going overseas, and a few others but they tend to be few - and ambitious (the welder literally retired after a few years work). I saw this in myy ancestors - one dying while heading to California for the gold rusn, others heading out west for opportunities - but most remained in the same areas for decades - 90% of one family line is still within a few hundred mile radius of where their 'founder' landed 1in the early 1700's.
The few that DID go to college in the past were usually living home when doing so. COST of college was a real factor. NO 'financial aid' - you paid what was required. You family had the funds or you worked for them - and tried to minimize costs.
BUT opportunities for true 'generational' advancement were rare. Marrriage provided one way - marrying the boss's daughter or otherwise marrying 'well' worked for a few. One was a bank clerk, married the owner's daughter and was a VP withing a few years, opening his own banks a decade later. BUT he apparently had a mistress - presumably AFTER his father in law was gone. Going by family letters, his wife kept 'her' funds separate later in life. Unsurprisingly, they had no children.
Many of those that did the 'best' in my family's past, those that were considered to be 'wealthy' by their contemporaries, did NOT have children (a much lower cost for their life?). Their estates left to relatives ahd a measureable effect on those that benefitted. But most of those that 'married well' adopted the path of their wealthier in-laws when they did have children. If a family DID manage to 'climb a rung' on the economic ladder, they tried to make sure their children stayed there. However if you married 'above your station' WITHOUT the approval of the 'better's' parents - well that awas another story.......
IF you managed to go to college, you saw a material change in your life. The few cases where that occurred seem to have been people working their way through at great effort. Places like CIty College and Cooper Union - free or low cost - were a godsend to many.
At the same time you CAN say that 'today's youth are often 'spoiled' - expecting far too much' - because we GIVE it to them.
Every generation says this of the following ones but ther is some truth here. Loans are freely given for degrees that will never be completed or be totally useless - you see this with 'for profit' schools that USED to be trade or secretarial schools now charging 10 times more for useless 'business' degrees pitched to the unqualified poorly educated (and poor financially as well).
They spend ridiculous sums on 'stuf' they do NOT need - clothes, shoes, etc - instead of saving to build a future. But then that is what they are taught. You are punished for saving, offered credit cards you are really unqualified to get and otherwise 'spoiled' - whiel NEVER taught the consequences of buying into this approach to life. Few are ever taught to 'work hard' and most are blinded by the materialism they see. Poor kids want to be rap stars or 'pro' sports figures - with no chance in hell - instead of working hard in school to achieve POSSIBLE goals. Too many 'adults' feed these fantasies. Faked trranscripts for basketball players in Community College are getting a lot of news play locally.
And while I hate to say it, something has to be said for an 'immigrant' mentality where you work DO hard - doing WHATEVER is needed - to make a better life for your children. Many of the immigrant Chinese and Koreans who had college degrees worked owning stores and such coming here but their kids are now in the top schools attended by my children. They were also in the G&T programs during high schiool - while 'American' kids were noticeably in short supply. And while I may be from a DAR family around for 300 years, I was the FIRST and only one of 3 to go to a four college (one sibling went to a 2 year tech school). My wife - first gen here in the US - and most of her siblings went (5 four year, 2 two year tech). Our parents were in comparable states financially.
I recently had a garage built - a bit more work than I can handle on my own. Most of the workers were immigrant and worked HARD - many well into their 40's or older. The few 'native' Americans - far younger - stood out in NOT doing so. I've worked with various volunteer programs doing work - some in their teens DO work hard but an astounding number have no idea of what real work entails. This is in real contrast to my youth 40 - 50 years earlier. We held jobs to make our own spending money (no 'allowances' ) and HAD to do things like shovel snow, rake leaves and do other 'chores' at home. BSA has a Family Life Merit Badge. Part of the requirement is doing work at home on a regular schedule. Most have never done such a thing before.
So... summary -
THE JOBS for the NON-college educated are NOT there.
The path to employment outside of college is far more limited now with fewer apprenticeships and fewer employers willing to train employees.
Employers can and will demand college for ANY job if the supply lets them (it does provide some 'winnowing' of the applicant pool and usually gives you SLIGHTLY better applicants).
Yes, we DO have more 'spoiled' youth - but we've made it possible for them to BE 'spoiled' - they can afford NOT to work though they are accumulating debt while unaware of the consequences.
True story.
I have a friend in Atlanta who told me about a kid in his neighborhood who is preparing to graduate from high school who up until a few months ago didn't know there was a Country in Europe called "Spain" as he thought that the name was affiliated only with a language... Fathom that!... Yes indeed the child may be suffering from a diminished intellectual capacity, or perhaps the educational system that has allowed this young man to get to his 12th year of formative learning had some issues with the educators that promoted him to the next significant phase of his life?...
This read is not one bit surprising when your Federal Government and the "lawmaker" representatives in D.C. that we pay for have opened the floodgates to H1B1 access for the past 25 years that includes every link in the chain of the "crown jewels" of intellectual property that once belonged to this Country from professors in U.S. universities to the training here and offshoring of the jobs outside our borders, ironically as we continue to fight a "war on terror"...
I'm of the opinion and this article only proves the point that we will never have dominance again and within the next 5 to 10 years we will need to train our best and brightest abroad because the American institutions and corporations are so dependent and cannot exist without those foreign academic and labor manufacturing resources we gave away!
I went to high school with a guy who once told me he wanted to move to Wyoming because it's a slave state. But that's another story...
I went to high school with a guy who once told me he wanted to move to Wyoming because it's a slave state. But that's another story...
Don't mean to pry gsd... But was the fella you were speaking of that wanted to move to Wyoming by any chance named Dick Cheney?
Listen up! A wise man once told me the following: "Real money can only be made selling sin." Open a strip bar, liqour store, night club, etc. That's where the money is. Stop whining! <sarcasm, sort of>
it's easy to make money doing evil... the devil gives his children dominion over the earth
Know people in the liquor industry...... I'll have to agree. LOTS of serious money made bootlegging went legit after Prohibition. Distributors are often family businesses - lots of money to be made there.
Won't even get into illegal things like drugs... we all know what family has been hip deep in that (and US politics)
I'm friends with several engineering professors at a major university. They have NO clue about the real economy. They think every thing is bliss and argue the point with me every time we have a gathering. Their jobs and pensions are set for life. They only work 2 or 3 days a week and rarely need to leave the house. It's a fucking sham. The whole fucking system of education is a sham.
In my engineering school (one of the country's most highly rated), classes were taught mostly by graduate students and many were minorities with language problems making them difficult to understand. I basically learned engineering on my own, relying on the text and, later, one veteran professor in graduate school who brought it all together.
When government comes it brings corruption and waste. But, now, one thing more: Deliberate destruction of the free-enterprise system installed by the Founders. No better example can be found than the government’s heavy dominance in thwarting all aspects of what made America great. The American system was a level playing field whereby individual initiative could provide for growth and prosperity. The achievement of that system has never been equaled. No longer.
The Forbes’ headline says it all:
Your Nosebleed Student Loan Debt Pays the Tuition of the Classmate Next To You | Forbes | 7/26/2013
Mark Hendrickson
Last year I wrote about some of the myths surrounding higher education in the U.S. You also have to beware of colleges acting to redistribute wealth.
Following is an anecdote with which I am intimately acquainted: In the mid-‘90s, there was a family (a white family which you will see is a significant detail) whose daughter had a sterling high school record that guaranteed her acceptance at all but the very top colleges in the country. This girl had everything—a nearly perfect grade point average and strong SAT scores, leadership and citizenship awards, three MVP awards in two different sports, and also additional extracurricular activities in school and community service outside of school.
One college that accepted this girl had annual fees of over $25,000 (more than twice that today, which shows how rapidly college costs have increased). The girl’s family had only a few thousand dollars of discretionary income after the unavoidable expenses of mortgages, taxes, insurance, food, transportation, etc. Surely that thriving, well-endowed college would offer such a well-rounded student some financial aid, right?
Nope. Not a penny. The college’s financial aid office was committed to increasing educational opportunities for minorities by giving them nearly full scholarships. Essentially, white kids, even ones like this girl with the exceptional range of accomplishments, were expected to subsidize the education of other, often less-qualified, students.
While offended by the college’s plan to redistribute wealth racially, this was a private college. The family felt that the college had a right to practice social engineering if it wanted to. The family, though, wasn’t going to go into debt to pay for this plan, so the daughter went elsewhere for her highly successful collegiate career.
The issue of colleges redistributing wealth becomes more problematical when it happens at state-subsidized schools. Recently, the Oregon legislature approved a plan that redistributes wealth (although, to their credit, not along racial lines). The Oregon plan will let students attend Oregon’s state universities at reduced expense, repaying the state of Oregon after they graduate. Repayments will be a certain percentage of their income. In other words, graduates who earn higher incomes will pay more for their college education than those will lower incomes will pay more for their college education than those will lower incomes. This plan passed both the Oregon House and Senate unanimously—a costly mistake.
In fiscal terms, during an era of stressed state budgets, it would have made more sense to reduce the taxpayer subsidy to state universities (i.e., state expenditures) rather than current tuition receipts (state revenues). Budget cuts would have induced university administrators to prune courses that make no economic sense and end up wasting taxpayer dollars.
From a fairness point of view, the Oregon plan is yet another scheme to redistribute wealth from the more productive members of society to the less productive. Why should those students who, while in college, do the extra work necessary to eventually gain employment in demanding fields such as engineering and science be expected to shoulder, through a lengthy stretch of their work lives, a portion of the cost of the instruction received by students in less demanding and less remunerative majors?
In the Oregon plan, we once again see the ugly head of moral hazard rear itself.
Oregon) that they have voted to subsidize less marketable majors in the soft disciplines—those often saturated with statist opinions and fuzzy ideological causes such as “social justice?” Thus, they have made the self-defeating blunder of helping to fund the propagation of worthless and pernicious leftist ideologies that already has done so much to undermine the principles and practice of individual liberty and impartial rule of law in this country.
Consumers are increasingly questioning the value of college degrees. The market for exotic, esoteric, feel-good “blow” courses is shrinking. This is the natural, logical course of events, but the Oregon legislature ignored that trend and instead voted to spend precious resources to subsidize the increasingly uneconomic status quo in higher education.
Both private and public colleges and universities have become active in wealth redistribution practices. If you don’t want to support such an agenda, you should find out if your kids’ prospective college is engaging in it before selecting that college.
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Why would government deliberately destroy the level playing field, in this case for university students, and at the same time displace its own citizens? The reason now becomes clear. The alien forces that control government want the American middle class, the white European culture, to be dissolved into a weakened force. And in its place, the rulers would substitute Third World hegemony, masses for welfare who will vote to support the rule by whip.
It is not anti-Semitic to say that these plans, so closely associated with the 1965 Immigration Act for Third World dominance, comes from the Jewish philosophy that Jewish power is only dominant when no strong ethnic culture exists.
"the 1965 Immigration Act for Third World dominance"
The 1965 Immigration Act
Preface to the book reviewed in above link
Norbert Schlei Interview Schlei was the architect of the 1965 Immigration Act
The government will never stop any practice that brings money into the treasury. Now that the government is in the student loan business, we see a different type of "scrutiny" that is intended to protect the consumer.
Oh great. We get to pay twice for K-12 educations because they never got educated in the first 12 years.
Students freshly out of High School should not require remedial math or remedial anything. Put the blame where it belongs with the public school systems and teachers we all worship and pay homage to but most of all ... us.
Betcha those students can outperform when putting a condom on a bananna or scream for help whenever they see a gun. (except in the hands of "authorities").
And why should they give a crap? There is very little decent work. Who wants to compete with a thousand other dodo's for a yob making taco's? Only thing left for them is dying for Washingtons empire in the service of their emperor or working for one of the alphabet agencies ensuring the proles stay in their place. Yep, that sounds fulfilling.
This is no longer the land of opportunity. Its the land of hell. What do they care about not paying off their student loans? They know going in the odds are heavily against them but why not enjoy a little life before the hell begins.So their credit score is ruined and they owe Uncle,,, would have been ruined anyway so the difference is.?
We are doing the one thing that ensures the destruction of the nation by eliminating opportunity. Right now the main culprits have been able to deflect the blame onto the boomers but at some point the truth will shine through and the shots of liberty may be felt again by the demons in DC pretending to be government.
Dont' forget to apportion blame to the unions that make it impossible for teachers to be held to standards.
The huge student loan debt is entirely due to universities raising tuition rates far faster than inflation for the last two decades. Sooner or later it was going to add up to stifling debt totals. So why were they so emboldened to raise tuition so fast? Because the US government provided too much US backing of the debt. Eighteen year old kids entering college generally have an overly optimistic view of their future. Anyone that's been there understands that to be true. Put that together with an economic illiteracy, greedy universiites, and a US government extending students more credit than they deserve, and you have the perfect wave for disaster. Now taxpayers are being asked to foot part of the bill with term limits on paying back that debt. This is so wrong.
College is a scam.
Hence, the Schooling Industrial Complex (SIC). It has very little to do with actual education for the most part.
Any PROPER (public or private) university will give, or allow you develop, skills beyond your major area of study that will make you a quite productive citizen outside of your major. I have friends that took carpentry classes at college, and they can teach their years-experienced bosses plenty about how to save/make money... ever seen a construction guy who just marks off "that's about right..."? Then the graduate takes out a pencil, does a little math, points out a trigonometry that immediately says "You're off 2 and one-half degrees, and at the cost of the timber, adjusting trusses, as well as the roofing materials, that's $13,000 more than you thought it would cost."
Me, I got a science degree, but I decided to take a minor in art.... so I can only do worthless stuff like blow glass, make metal jewelry small sculpture from precious metals, and a couple different types of ARC welding - to aesthetically pleasing qualities.
Just remember it was under Republican leadership in the mid-2000's that the bankrupcy laws were changed to make debt harder to discharge in bankrupcy court.
It was Bill Clinton who made discharging student loan debt impossible. Joe Biden wrote the toughening of Bankruptcy standards for his Delaware Credit Card cronies.
Hey I got a great idea lets put all the non-rich children who want to learn into debt...What do you mean: 'the banks beat me to it'?!
I have 3 sets of friends whom do not know one another but through me. All three sets have kids that either got a two year of full ticket engineering scholarships based on high school performance. All bragged how their boy made honor roll with straight A's never studying in high school.
Not a one of their kids was able to make through the first year of engineering, one even blew it at a jr. college. Now whats wrong with this picture. Were the kids actually challenged in school or were they just good, well behaved intelligent kids smart enough to reproduce what they were shown in class with little effort. But came away without the skills or knowledge to carry them forward? What does that say about how dumbed down the supposed advanced or honor courses they attended were?
The irony is one of them became an education major in order to become a coach... What a calling.
Have two kids who have gone (are going) to one of the best schools in the country/world. Near top of HS class, one got out with an Honors degree from college 3.9 in major and is at grad school - was a dual major with math for the first 2 years. Other was a National Merit winner - took BC Calc when 16.
Despite going to a 'good' school, their accomplishments were to a large degree IN SPITE of the school they attended (a reasonably 'good' one in a relatively affluent area - though not nearly as 'good' as hthey would have you believe). You had to fight tooth and nail to make sure schedules were right, classes were correct and more. Both went to summer programs for G&T where they THRIVED. You had to qualify for those programs - unfortunately not cheap (though offering scholarships). BUT once there they met other really bright and involved kids - made friends for life.
Those summers taught them it was GOOD to be smart - a lesson NOT taught in ANY public schools.
The US claims to be a 'meritocracy' but the reality is that we are ANTI 'elitist' - we despise any one that is truly smarter than we are. Look at the typical US High School social ranking structure. IN the US we conscioulsy tell kids it is NOT 'cool' to be smart and denigrate those that are. We reward scheming and cheating far more than actual accomplishments - look at what kdis want to be when they gorw up - lawyers, finance and business
After sitting on their butts for 12 years, being passed along with minimal effort, they go to kawlej and find they know too little to succeed. Perhaps the standardized testing minimums are too low? Perhaps kawlej is more interested in looting these academic no-shows in place of edyookashunizing them?
Maybe students who require such remedial classes shouldn't be accepted into college.
What a waste of their free money. The students should have spent it on hookers and Obama memorabila.
I teach freelance at some local colleges.
I am shocked that the number of students needing remedial work is ONLY 40%
These kids come into my classes not ready for the college academic experience. They have poor writing skills, poor classwork-management skills, and I can't really figure out why these skills were not taught in high-school? How do you graduate high school without learning how to write a proper essay?
NOT A SINGLE ONE OF THEM would have lasted a single semester at a "normal" college under what was considered a "normal” course load when I got my degrees over 25 years ago.
This speaks for the failure of our secondary education. Like in health care, we refuse to look at how the rest of the developed world does things better. We put little value in teachers in the US. No revenue stream there, and social programs are just too expensive and must be cut.
In reference to countries that succeed in educating sudents:
"They hire their teachers from among their most talented graduates, train them extensively, create opportunities for them to collaborate with their peers within and across schools to improve their practice, provide them the external supports that they need to do their work well, and underwrite all these efforts with a strong welfare state. Because these countries do a good job of honing the expertise of their educators to begin with, they have less of a need for external monitoring of school performance."
http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/139113/jal-mehta/why-american-edu...
Who needs education if the goal is to produce global worker units whose failure to succeed is their own fault for not trying harder?
Basics - writing and math - are totally lacking in most these days. Horrible to read cover letters for resumes......LOL grammar and spelling (even WITH) spell check are noticeably absent. Forget vocabulary...... most are limited to what a 10 year old would have decades back. And despite the number of computers in the world, few have any real skills outside gaming.
(again I say this about 90%.... the TOP kids are astoundingly well educated and accomplished. They've made the most of all available to them) Nonetheless I'm beginning to think 'Idiocracy' is a documentary)
My two cents....at rate of inflation.
I recently looked into going back for another bachelors degree at a local university here in Denver because I can afford to do so and it would help my career. The degree? Applied Mathematics.
Looking through their course catalogs and curriculum, 75% of the program is mathematics I completed in High School, basically meaning 1 of the 4 years would actually teach me Applied Mathematics. I asked the counselor "Is there a way I can test out of all these pre-reqs and mundain remedial classes?" NO. Schools force you to take bullshit classes that have no relevance to the degree that cost you money.
It's college! They get paid, you probably will get laid, and then after four years you get handed the ace of spades.
You misunderstood. The 'spade' you get handed at graduation is a type of shovel.
Most (accredited) schools would simply let you CLEP the classes you *thought* you remembered, but some majors do want you to have some recent experience in areas of science and math that do change every few years.
Most nursing and "hard sscience" programs require certain courses to have been taken in the five years prior to enrollment or acceptance to a program.
If you took calculus before there were graphing calculators, your slide rule abilities DO NOT readily translate into today's world.
Children who need remedial courses should not be getting college loans, nor entry into college until they have had their remedial education elsewhere.
And if their remedial education fails?
Well the world needs ditch diggers, too.
Yeah, lets just continue to ignore the problems with education in the US and let the neoliberal push towards illiterate worker units continue. Developing critical thinking skills could hinder the greater good if people were able to recognize the propaganda. Global worker units, properly kept in their place and continuously reminded of their failures in our "meritocracy", won't require unneccesary funding from the pockets of those who know how to game the system or have a inherited advantage.
I agree with your comments regarding 'critical thinking skills. As George Carlin said "just smart enough to run the machines, but stupid enough to believe in the system..". That describes most MIT grads.
However, I should note that only a percentage is capable of critical thinking skills in any case. Our newest 'citizens' are not among them and that is no accident.
Correct. If they need remedial teaching then they shouldn't be there. In any event too many people go to third level where most of what they learn is useless crap like the social "sciences".
The government could pressure academia to reduce the number of non-economical social science degrees, except that these degrees are a big plus politically. The 'cadre' that support America's social engineers are drawn from such graduates. These people are the enemy of traditional republican (small 'r'), liberty-oriented, free market Americans.
You can thank teacher's unions, liberals, and the NEA for indoctrinating instead of educating.
A high school grad today is barely literate (if at all).
Cannot do exponents or compound interest (leading to the student loan debacle that is so obvious a child could see this coming).
Complete and total absence of critical thinking skills, and prefers feelings, ideas, etc. over rational thought and discourse. They usually demand to fuck themselves politically. Utterly insane.
This is despite massive increases in educational spending at all levels (head start all the way thru grad school).
It's no wonder students are protesting standardized testing that was so basic just a decade ago.
They simply cannot do them. Their minds are not capable.
They were not born retarded. They were born with as much potential as you, bright-eyed and energetic.
But the state dumbed them down, as intended. Certainly, results this catastrophic could not be an accident, as the academic trend has been going down for some time now.
And now these kids are ripe for the picking.
This is "Gruber 101"...bitchez.
Please - read your history.
The US public educational system was founded in the early 1800's to provide a work force that possessed proper moral fiber and skills needed. When you had a shortage of labor early in US history you had a pretty indolent work force - got drunk pretty regularly and didn't show up - knew they could always get another job or simply 'move west' if unhappy. Look at early school books and the lessons taught. All kinds of morality lessons. Talk about 'indoctrination'.
HOWEVER they DID teach 'civics' along with 'responsibility' - something sorely lacking today. God forbid anyone knows anything about government.
BTW - the whole patriotism meme was really pushed to offset fears of growing 'communism'.... best to deflect any attempts by labor to advance by portraying them as 'commies' and refocus on partiotism and serving country (and employer0 instead of self interest (like a working wage). This began in the 1920's and continued well into the 50's and 60's. Read up on the labor movement - Colorado Labor wars, Molly Maguires in Coal Country and all the riots and such in places like Detroit. Workers were treated like slaves and - literally - had to fight for living wages and ANY benefits. The 'middle class' in the US was built on very real violence - there was NOTHING like a eral 'blue collar' middle class before the 18940's. You had a few merchants and shopkeepers and a few really skilled trades people but otherwise you had 'working class' (most people who worked til they died, rented their shelter and otherwise had very little) and the 'rentier' types who owned the land, houses and 'means of production'. Not many in between.
'Saint Ronnie' was employed by GE as part of this effort in the early 50's promoting 'American values'.....
I don't need to read history. I lived it.
Talk to a kid graduating today vs. when I did.
I graduated and was actually taught (ahem!) that government was a necessary evil.
What are kids taught today?
Reality (like math) doesn't give a shit about your dreams.
Tell Gruber "hello" from me.
And that he never fooled me. Unlike you.
i like how they use a first generation cambodian immigrant as an example of a college student who needs remedial english instead of showing a 6 generation white girl or, god forbid, any black kid.
Is it just me, or has this article fudged the facts or misdiagnosed the situation a bit...??
I'm not the brightest bulb on the tree, thanks to my public school education. However, it seems to me that a lot of this trend of remedial classes being financed with student loans is really just a bi-product of the recession.
We have a ton of older (not fresh out of school) people going back to school after being barfed out of the workforce. Many of them have probably been out of school for some time and wouldn't be able to adequately test into the appropriate level of classes for the intended degrees, hence the remedial classes as a refresher.
I'm sure a bunch of those going back probably weren't the best and brightest to begin with either though.
Exactamundo, my friend. I ALWAYS recommend that potential students simply sit down with some math books and drill themselves for a few weeks before taking the placement tests. At LCC we have a FREE program that will actually teach you everything you need to know to test out of remedial classes, run by the GED department. The program is very informal and attendance is not required, but of course you get no benefit if you do not attend.
The older students (called "nontraditional" in academic parlance) actually do BETTER than the kids as a group, mainly because they've had time to figure out WHY they want to be in college. Nontrads are more focused as a rule, the kids with some notable exceptions are just there because they have nothing better to do, it's expected of them, they want to impress their parents, etc. None of those reasons is sufficient to push them through all the hard work. Nontrads often feel their SURVIVAL is at stake if nothing else, which is a great motivator. Going back to school at 35 made me a perfect nontrad so I know whereof I speak.
I dual majored in computer science and psychology, so I can tell you that olde skills fade with time if they are not used just as you suggest. This is scientific fact. However they never disappear completely, if you were ever any good at math you can bring it back pretty quickly with a very little study. Sadly, most people simply never learned the stuff to begin with.
What public school does is try and beat you over the head with math in a way that turns people off. They associate the idea of math with the sheer boredom of sitting in those classes and THAT creates the mental block that kills their success later on. I was lucky to be exposed to some really good educators later in life who had better ideas than that, so perhaps public debate should not be focused on whether or not remedial classes actually help later on but rather what is keeping high school students from learning these skills in the first place. IMHO, that will not happen because our owners don't WANT a well educated populace as George Carlin indicated long ago. It simply isn't in their best interests that we be smart enough to question their prerogatives in any great numbers. In fact, I would go so far as to suggest that if someone came up with a foolproof way of boosting high school math scores with some innovative pedagogy, that person would wind up dead in a ditch in short order. Public education sucks by DESIGN, not by accident. Graduating stupid people from high school is a FEATURE, not a BUG.
8)
I used to tutor math at a local community college (LCC in Lane County, Oregon if you must know) and I can tell you that the biggest thing incoming students need remedial help with is math, followed by writing. You simply CANNOT go on to the higher maths until you've tackled the basic stuff. Same goes for English 101 equivalents. I was actually able to help a lot of these people, but unfortunately not everyone is cut out to be a math prodigy.
The real problem here is that public school K through high school SUCKS ASS. I ALWAYS did poorly in math until I hit community college out here, the remedial classes helped me a lot and after a couple of years I was getting A's in calculus and number theory. That's how I wound up a tutor. The experience taught me that the way math is taught in public high schools is 100% ass-backwards WRONG. They make math cumbersome and painful, perhaps intentionally since as George Carlin famously noted it's not in the best interests of our owners that we be well educated. Most of my students have strong internal blocks against learning math because of this, just like I did. After all we teach people, especially women, that math is hard and only special people can do it. Bullshit. If some good teachers and a little hard work can turn a C- student like me into a math prodigy in just a couple of years, then ANYONE can learn it if they apply themselves.
My advice to students and potential students has always been, if you need the remedial classes, TAKE THEM. But do not take them for granted! Do your homework. Attend class. Your societal programming will tell you it's too hard and you should quit, your ego might tell you the lower maths are beneath you. Don't listen to these voices because they only lead to failure.
I was smart enough that I could start the remeidial stuff at basic algebra, Math 60 in the LCC system. You start getting transferrable University level credits at Math 111. Many of the people I helped later on needed Math 20 or lower, which means they couldn't even deal with fractions as a result of their broken public education. Do the remedial classes work for everyone? Of course not. Not everyone is going to have the sheer Will to push through all the hard work to do well in them. Is the success rate low? Well, kind of unfortunately. A good teacher or tutor can only help a student to the extent that the student has the drive to succeed. Remember, most people who go to college, ESPECIALLY young people, simply have NO CLUE what they're doing there, no clear plan of attack, no real idea even what they should major in. Most drop out anyway. Lack of desire and real focus is what kills most students IMHO.
So remedial classes are only a waste of money to the extent that the individual student is incapable of or unwilling to use them to further their academic success, in which case their college career is probably doomed anyway. Remember that Schwarzenegger said in Pumping Iron that the difference between a winner and a loser is that the winner works out until he pukes while the loser stops short of this. It's the same way with college, no matter how far down you start in the classes. You either have the drive to succeed or you don't, and if you don't then ANY money you spend on classes is ultimately wasted.
8)
What’s really sad is all the asshats that borrowed 100 grand to get a BA in whatever. I live in Wilmington NC, and I believe in this town it’s highly likely that the person serving your food or drink has a degree from UNCW or ECU. Meanwhile the local community college has dynamite two year vo-tech programs that get you ready for work at a tenth of the cost.
My own company has had a difficult time sourcing fully qualified CNC machinist’s even though we pay over 35 an hour for full rate personnel on the off shifts. But since we started working with the community college we now are establishing a stream of ready to go machinists that will be able to fill our openings. What we need is change is philosophy where we tell these high school kids uts ok to worj and get your hands dirty.