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Student Debt By Major: What Not To Study To Avoid A Lifetime Of Debt Slavery

Tyler Durden's picture




 

As recently reported by the Project On Student Debt, 7 in 10 seniors who graduated from public and nonprofit colleges in 2013 had student loans, with an average debt load of $28,400 per borrower. This represents a two percent increase from the average debt of 2012 public and nonprofit graduates. It is also a new record high.

Those curious about the geographic breakdown of the student debt burden by state, can do so at the following interactive map:

 

It goes without saying that while student debt is bad, record student debt - which at the Federal level amounts to over $1.2 trillion and rising exponentially - is worse.

In fact, as shown previously, the unprecedented debt burden on the Millennial generation has been used to explain why the largest generational cohort in US history is unable to carry the weight of the economy on its shoulders, why the Millennials are perhaps the most financially disenfranchised generation, and why the labor force participation rate has collapsed in the past five years, as older workers rush back into the work force (thanks to ZIRP crushing the value of their savings) while young Americans chose to remain in university (where they can take remedial high school classes among other things) and out of the labor force in hopes of holding out a better job market (for the 6th year in a row).

However, since all college educations are most certainly not created equal, one outstanding item has been the debt breakdown by field of study, or major.

This is where the latest project and research paper from the Hamilton Project, which comes in handy. It examined earnings for approximately 80 different majors and as the NYT summarizes, allows people to look up typical debt burdens by major, over the first decade after college – which is when people tend to repay their loans.

The project authors note that for the graduate with typical debt level and earnings, payments under the standard 10-year repayment plan take up 14.1% of earnings in the first year, but gradually fall to only 6.5% of earnings in the tenth and final year. This repayment strategy, however, can place a particularly heavy burden on graduates from majors whose earnings start low before rising later in the career. For these students, college may not provide the cash flow needed to easily pay off loans in years immediately following graduation.

The study's four conclusions:

  • Debt burdens vary a lot across majors. In the sixth year of repayment, typical drama, music, religion and anthropology majors are still devoting more than 10 percent of their earnings to loan repayment. Other majors with fairly high early repayment burdens include philosophy, psychology and education. By contrast, engineering, computer science, economics and nursing majors are paying 6 percent or less of earnings in their sixth year.
  • In the first five years after earning a bachelor’s degree, the typical student receives a 65 percent raise. (This rise for an individual person, as she ages and becomes more experienced, is occurring even as pay growth across the economy is weak. Today’s 30-year-old is making more than he did at 25, but not much more than a 30-year-old was five years ago.) Unfortunately in recent years, wage increases have become deminimis, suggesting that this may no longer be uniformly true.
  • Many of the majors that pay the least directly out of college also have the biggest raises in the first few years. Graduates who major in therapy professions, nutrition or fine arts, for instance, all make less than $20,000 coming out of college, but all see their pay more than double in the first five years. A typical nurse, by contrast, makes almost $45,000 in the first year but receives about a 20 percent raise over the next five years.
  • The growth of earnings for most college graduates means that some of the discussion about student debt has the wrong focus. The overall amount of debt isn’t a problem for most graduates: The typical debt, for someone who has debt, is about $26,500, a manageable sum in most college-graduate careers. The problem for many, instead, is when they must repay their loans: early in their careers, when they’re making the least. In some majors, including health education and drama, the typical graduate with debt must devote an imposing 25 percent of her earnings in the first year out of college to loan repayment. “Repayment issues for the bulk of students,” Mr. Hershbein says, “are a matter of timing, not the amount of student debt.”

And since more and more students seek the safety of college to avoid the "hardship" of a job that pays less than your average Millennial expected, or though they were worth, and thus are forced to dilute their field of study and pick increasingly less monetizable majors, it becomes a Catch 22 whereby students increasingly find it impossible to overcome a staggering debt burden early on in their career, which in turn hinders normal career formation, and skews the economy adversely leading to such unintended consequences as the Fed looking at a sub-6% unemployment rate, while the slack-filled economy has rarely if ever been weaker and real wages are at same level as during the Lehman collapse.

Below is the student loan repayment calculator that shows the share of earnings necessary to service traditional loan repayment for 80 majors. Readers can choose or search from each of these majors, as well as change the size and features of the student loan using the selection boxes above. By default, loan features reflect the experience of a typical graduate borrower, and earnings include part-time workers and those who experience unemployment throughout the year (but exclude those with graduate degrees, as these individuals often accumulate additional debt).

Feel free to play around with the interest rate selector: it shows yet another reason why the regime simply can not afford to send interest rates levitating higher despite the optical effect it would have on expectations for an "economic recovery."

 

In retrospect it is clear why 24% of Millennials  (and rising) "Expect" student loan forgiveness, and why increasingly more private (and soon public) lenders are starting to grant it.

 

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Sat, 11/22/2014 - 21:32 | 5477936 Bangalore Equit...
Bangalore Equity Trader's picture

Listen Undergrad and Postgrad Zero's.

The most important topic to study:

Dreams 101, the worst way to live a grounded life.

Sat, 11/22/2014 - 21:45 | 5477958 ACP
ACP's picture

Listen.

LISTEN.

LISTEN!

L-I-S-T-E-N

L---I---S---T---E---N!

LLLLLLLLLLIIIIIIIIIISSSSSSSSSSTTTTTTTTTTEEEEEEEEEENNNNNNNNNN!

Sat, 11/22/2014 - 22:45 | 5478055 Shocker
Shocker's picture

In the end, your still fighting to find a good paying job

Layoff / Closing List: http://www.dailyjobcuts.com

-

Sun, 11/23/2014 - 00:15 | 5478213 RobD
RobD's picture

Look for Scientific Games on the list before the end of the year. They just finalized a merger with Bally Tech and will be laying off at least 20%. I may be one of them. Good times.

Sun, 11/23/2014 - 02:54 | 5478423 Four chan
Four chan's picture

the federal reserve's"system", enslave a fee people/nation to debt,

capture all assets through boom and busts using money it controls and

prints out of thin air. create principle, never interest and devalue all

savings through inflation aka printing.

 

well folks its been 100 years how did the owner's of the fed inc do? happy slaves?

Sun, 11/23/2014 - 05:18 | 5478509 Dakota Kid
Dakota Kid's picture

If you like your education, you can keep your education and your debt.

Sun, 11/23/2014 - 07:08 | 5478548 Latina Lover
Latina Lover's picture

What about gender and LGBT studies? Where do they lead, LOL?

Sun, 11/23/2014 - 09:52 | 5478646 Pool Shark
Pool Shark's picture

 

 

The author should have studied English...

 

 

Sun, 11/23/2014 - 11:55 | 5478904 Eeyores Enigma
Eeyores Enigma's picture

The only thing to study is how to make money PERIOD! 

or perhaps How to make somebody elses money make you money.

Sun, 11/23/2014 - 12:49 | 5479018 balolalo
balolalo's picture

THIS IS NOT A LIST OF MAJORS IT IS A LIST OF OUR PRIORITIES AS A CIVILIZATION. 

Sun, 11/23/2014 - 14:44 | 5479295 FreedomGuy
FreedomGuy's picture

There is some merit to that. In a free economy the price signal as reflected in salary is a measure of the overall value of that occupation.

Sun, 11/23/2014 - 14:57 | 5479344 Handful of Dust
Handful of Dust's picture

In the end, your still fighting ... Raj, Abdul, Wang and Perdro ... for that job."

 

Clinton, Bush and Barry have globalized your borders so might as well just buy more Vaseline, lay back and enjoy it 'cause Barry just added 6 million more competitors for your jobs with his 'Executive Order.'

Sun, 11/23/2014 - 18:08 | 5479791 FreedomGuy
FreedomGuy's picture

Supply and demand rule, too, LOl! This is the problem of unlimited immigration, legal or illegal. The other problem is the problem of social welfare costs.

Sun, 11/23/2014 - 21:51 | 5480331 jimmytorpedo
jimmytorpedo's picture

A Philosophy degree might not pay well but it sure helps to understand how badlly you're getting fucked.

Fortuately it can help you get paid well and understand that.

--someone who learned to think and made a few bucks (and quickly converted them to PM's, lead and beef on the hoof)

Sat, 11/22/2014 - 22:47 | 5478060 Bangalore Equit...
Bangalore Equity Trader's picture

Listen ACP.

Yes I agree, as do your other greenies. Those are excellent alternatives.

But Listen, our overlords only allowed "SUDDEN DEBT" the privilege of cap locks.

Sat, 11/22/2014 - 23:12 | 5478087 Philo Beddoe
Philo Beddoe's picture

You are a good shit disturber, Ganesha. Fonestar would be proud. 

Listen. This is not an echo chamber. Well. maybe a bit....a bit....a bit......a bit. 

Sat, 11/22/2014 - 23:17 | 5478093 Bangalore Equit...
Bangalore Equity Trader's picture

Listen.

I only speak the truth. Those are excellent alternatives, they "SOUND" good dooood.

Sat, 11/22/2014 - 23:18 | 5478097 malek
malek's picture

Listen.

You only speak out of your ass.

Sat, 11/22/2014 - 23:36 | 5478134 Bangalore Equit...
Bangalore Equity Trader's picture

Listen now,

that's just mean spirited.

Sun, 11/23/2014 - 00:04 | 5478181 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

Can you hear me now? _

Sun, 11/23/2014 - 00:52 | 5478271 The9thDoctor
The9thDoctor's picture

Read.

Because no one is listening.

Sun, 11/23/2014 - 01:31 | 5478337 ThirteenthFloor
ThirteenthFloor's picture

p < p+i

No one can pay interest unless the physical economy is growing or banks are printing. Bottom line this system will fail. Take cover. If you wondering the elite will remain and start it all over again. History repeats itself.

Sun, 11/23/2014 - 02:17 | 5478386 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

 I==Always listening

Sat, 11/22/2014 - 22:49 | 5478062 Creepy A. Cracker
Creepy A. Cracker's picture

Listen.  Beyonce.  Columbia Records 2006.

Sun, 11/23/2014 - 11:25 | 5478826 TurdOnTheRun
TurdOnTheRun's picture

Listen ! Why do you not listen to what I am typing. Listen to my typing and you may learn sumtin.

Mon, 11/24/2014 - 00:15 | 5480633 ersatz007
ersatz007's picture

....to the flower people.

Sun, 11/23/2014 - 02:15 | 5478383 Yen Cross
Yen Cross's picture

DELUSIONAL iNDIAN'S

Sat, 11/22/2014 - 21:35 | 5477944 holdbuysell
holdbuysell's picture

Blood squeezing, meet stone.

Sat, 11/22/2014 - 21:37 | 5477945 Bagbalm
Bagbalm's picture

Add Marine Biology. Thanks to Jacques Cousteau TV specials we probably have one wanna be Marine biologist for each whale.

Sat, 11/22/2014 - 22:19 | 5478008 wee-weed up
wee-weed up's picture

Add Marine Biology. Thanks to Jacques Cousteau TV specials we probably have one wanna be Marine biologist for each whale.
--------------------------------------------------
Yep, ditto astronomy and Neil deGrasse Tyson. The number of available astronomy jobs is almost nil.

Sat, 11/22/2014 - 22:31 | 5478026 Creepy A. Cracker
Creepy A. Cracker's picture

Try astrology instead?

Sat, 11/22/2014 - 22:56 | 5478071 wee-weed up
wee-weed up's picture

 

 

Astrology?

Yep, with the increasing numbers of dumb sheeple...

In the last 6 years, that will definitely be a growing field.

Sat, 11/22/2014 - 23:14 | 5478089 KnuckleDragger-X
KnuckleDragger-X's picture

Astrologer and economist are the same thing, the astrologer doesn't get to go to the big banker parties though.....

Sun, 11/23/2014 - 14:32 | 5479251 Pool Shark
Pool Shark's picture

 

 

But, you'd think astrologers would be able to predict they'll never be able to repay their student loans.

 

Me, I want to be a cosmologist and ride around in a wheelchair talking through a machine like Stephen Hawking...

 

Sun, 11/23/2014 - 15:42 | 5479444 847328_3527
847328_3527's picture

Modern Body Painting with lots of Hands-on lab work ... that has to be worth at least 25 grand as long as the school is has a fair number of nubile female art majors ... or desperate young girls needing supplemental income to pay for sundries.

Sun, 11/23/2014 - 00:13 | 5478208 Wilcox1
Wilcox1's picture

Asstrology and sheeple, prolly fill the class on that one

Sat, 11/22/2014 - 23:37 | 5478132 post turtle saver
post turtle saver's picture

heavens no, we have enough economists as is

Mon, 11/24/2014 - 00:46 | 5480679 PoliticalRefuge...
PoliticalRefugeefromCalif.'s picture

.."Try astrology instead?"..

Astrology Tatoo parlor, where science meets art.

Sun, 11/23/2014 - 00:04 | 5478180 benb
benb's picture

I think you just about covered the whole enchilada.

 Just one other thing crosses my mind.... what if the citizens of this country got the free education the illegals are being offered? Help me out here. Would that affect the student loan debt burden?

Sun, 11/23/2014 - 10:14 | 5478671 MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

what if the citizens of this country got the free education the illegals are being offered? Help me out here. Would that affect the student loan debt burden?

Probably wouldn't change much.  First, many states (mine included) essentially offer to pay for undergrad for people who can maintain some semblance of a decent GPA in college (here I believe it is a C average - most of it from state lottery money).  The problem of course is that they get started with school, get hooked on the pot and pussy, and you can't blow them out with dynamite.  They were drawn to it, at least in part, by the tuition tab being on the state.  Once they shit the bed, the next semester is on them.  The real education then becomes: how long can I stay here before getting kicked in the balls by the real world?  Those who are good at the game get to stay out of mom's basement...  those who aren't get to do the same, but have to at least hide it a little from the parental unit.

Second, student loans only partly go to educational expenses.  Many, if not the majority, of students use student loans as a means of living.  This at least makes a little sense because anyone who is actually balls deep in school would probably have an incredibly difficult time juggling a job (I know I did at various times).  However, once you start handing out money for non educational expenses, people will draw whatever they can to keep in the lifestyle they desire.

Third, your question is a bit near sighted...  I guess we could focus solely on the student loan debt burden, but I think the question should be more fundamental than that: why do people make terrible decisions, ignoring objective indicators?  In short, if it's not student loan debt, then it will be car loans, house loans, credit card bills, payday lending, advances from the most reliable tax return preparers (holy shit at the people lined up recently), etc.  The net effect being the same...

Fourth, no one can get a free education because that money is stolen from the rest of us.  If you really want to reform things, then you have to bring down the cost of a degree without subsidizing it.  This means much gnashing of the teeth for academics and, especially, administrators.

Sun, 11/23/2014 - 15:52 | 5479468 847328_3527
847328_3527's picture

Outrageous Pensions Turning Ill. Teachers into Millionaires

 

http://www.chicagonow.com/publius-forum/2010/08/outrageous-pensions-turn...

 

Fascinating article. I note my former anthropology teacher, who always complained how little he was paid, has a $1 million house near the Uni and a second 2,800 sf house in Colorado, I guess to "get away and relax." Both of them paid off another prof tells me.

I'm not begrudging him but I wish those types of people would not go around complaing how poor they are or how poorly they are paid.

Sun, 11/23/2014 - 12:01 | 5478918 logicalman
logicalman's picture

Education used to be encouraged, now it's just another way of producing debt.

Cars used to be about the freedom of travel, now they are just another way of procucing debt.....

Houses used to be what kept the rain off and the cold out.

Look around, you will see a pattern.

 

Sun, 11/23/2014 - 12:13 | 5478947 Creepy A. Cracker
Creepy A. Cracker's picture

Agreed about the education and debt. 

If you look behind the curtain of the student loan system you'll see it's a HUGE money transfer scheme to government and teacher's unions.  The salaries and pensions of state college teachers are enormous and the instruction hours tiny compared to a "normal" 40 hour work week.  It didn't used to be this way.  Today the government unions control the politicians who pay the government unions.

Sun, 11/23/2014 - 12:44 | 5479006 TBT or not TBT
TBT or not TBT's picture

Student loans fund the government party.   That's why Obama and  company nationalized that business, to keep the money flowing despite the unsound economics.  The tuition growth was unsustainable otherwise.    Eventually, this sucker's goin' down.  

Sun, 11/23/2014 - 17:22 | 5479128 Creepy A. Cracker
Creepy A. Cracker's picture

"That's why Obama and  company nationalized that business, to keep the money flowing despite the unsound economics."

Exactly.  It's a shame that our education system is so poor that more people don't understand this.  Economics (Austrian, not the fake, Keynesian economics), and basic business cash flow, should be mandatory in all grades along with reading, writing, and arithmetic.  But one can't expect government schools to teach about the fraud embedded in government school tuition...

Sun, 11/23/2014 - 14:50 | 5479318 FreedomGuy
FreedomGuy's picture

The problem with so many college students is that they look at college as sort of entertainment. Besides the college experience itself they look at their degree as something they find interesting or fun. That is okay if you or your family are wealthy and the degree is not important to your future. It is not okay if your living depends on it.

I have a lot of Asian friends. One thing they almost universally do is look at a degree as a ticket to making a real living, especially if they are from the middle class. They tend toward concrete things like engineering, accounting, medicine, pharmacist, etc. I doubt you will see the Sports Psychology or Central American Lesbian Basket Weaving courses with many Asians in them.

Sat, 11/22/2014 - 21:40 | 5477949 ZippyBananaPants
ZippyBananaPants's picture

We studied some folks

Sat, 11/22/2014 - 23:31 | 5478124 yellowsub
yellowsub's picture

We schooled some folks.

Sun, 11/23/2014 - 01:16 | 5478312 OldPhart
OldPhart's picture

We screwed some folks.

Sun, 11/23/2014 - 12:02 | 5478924 logicalman
logicalman's picture

A lot of folks get schooled.

Few are educated.

 

Mon, 11/24/2014 - 00:14 | 5480638 ersatz007
ersatz007's picture

most get screwed...

Mon, 11/24/2014 - 02:28 | 5480787 JuliaS
JuliaS's picture

Folk the folking folkers.

Sat, 11/22/2014 - 21:54 | 5477950 Creepy A. Cracker
Creepy A. Cracker's picture

The easy and correct solution for future students: GET THE GOVERNMENT THE HELL OUT OF THE STUDENT LOAN BUSINESS!!!!

"Free" money, as with any other area where money is flooded into the system - the stock market for example - jacks up prices.  Get the government out and have banks loan based on standard lending rules: the potential to be repaid.  Degrees in womyn's studies will receive ZERO loans (thank God! The nut-job teachers will have to get real jobs again as cashiers at book stores. Or, more likely they will get government jobs.).  Degrees in engineering, physics, computer science, nursing, et al, will receive loans.  Government schools will not be able to continue to build monuments to themselves because they won't be able to fleece all of the students who receive tens, or hundreds, of thousands of dollars of student loans (that they won't be able to pay back).  It's a win all around.  Colleges prices drop, college teachers no longer get to teach 6 hours per week for a 40 hour per week salary, and tuition drops becasue there isn't "free" government money to pay for it.

Sat, 11/22/2014 - 22:02 | 5477980 New_Meat
New_Meat's picture

"GET THE GOVERNMENT THE HELL OUT OF THE STUDENT LOAN BUSINESS!!!!"

Granny Warren and her cohort of huxtaz--they ain't sigining up for your proposal.

Don't cha' know.

- Ned

Sat, 11/22/2014 - 23:16 | 5478092 KnuckleDragger-X
KnuckleDragger-X's picture

the government made 5 billion more than Exxon from student loans and they jacked up the interest rates this year.....

Sun, 11/23/2014 - 00:42 | 5478249 PT
PT's picture

Get the govt out of the student loan biz?  Yeah, I agree.

Let the capitalists sort it out?  You may want to look around at some of the other courses available out in the real world.  Hand over a thousand bucks and a year of night school, still can't get a job with those quals.
Couple of grand and four weeks schooling, still useless in the field.  Old hands lament the lack of experience by the young hands - no shit!  That's why we spent our own time and money to get the quals - to learn the shit that we can't learn elsewhere.

Ain't got the quals?  Can't get the job.  Can't get the job?  Can't pay for the quals.  So how does the "free market" handle this?

Pick a price that the poor people "can afford".  Cut costs - i.e. water down the course, reduce the most expensive parts of the courses - i.e. more paperwork, less equipment.  Oh, but hang on, what about the profit motive?  The faster you teach your students and with the least amount of equipment, the less costs you have and the greater profit you make.

Profit motive directly translates to shitty qualifications.  Don't worry, the bad schools will go broke and the problem will sort itself out.  Yeah, sure.  Still waiting for the "free markets" to sort themselves out.  All we have to do is wait for another MurderDeathKill and we'll know where the murderer is.

Don't worry, I learnt my lesson.  No new quals for me without a guaranteed job at the other end.  In fact, if what I need to learn can really make that much profit, then there must be a boss out there that is willing to pay me to get those qualifications out of future profits.  No profit in study?  Then there must be no profit in the job.

Re "must be a boss out there ...":  Goodness me, doesn't that sound arrogant?  Maybe I can replace that phrase with "must be a customer out there...".  Point being, students need to find a customer FIRST, then worry about the study they need to do to service that customer!!!  This is standard business school thought translated into the business of study:  "Don't start a plant mowing business.  No-one will pay you to mow their plants.  Start a lawn mowing business.  People will pay you to mow their lawns."
 
Oh, but hang on.  People aren't going to pay for your four years worth of study to be an accountant just so you can do their taxes for them for a couple of days per year.  You're going to have to find lots of customers before you can justify doing your accounting degree.  Some engineering customers only want to hire you for 18 months and then the job is done.  Looks like you have to find an extra few customers to justify your engineering degree.

Perhaps we need to think a little harder.

Sun, 11/23/2014 - 00:50 | 5478267 bunzbunzbunz
bunzbunzbunz's picture

A person that thinks on this site? I don't believe it. Are you a bot?

Sun, 11/23/2014 - 00:58 | 5478280 jal
jal's picture

"if what I need to learn can really make that much profit, then there must be a boss out there that is willing to pay me to get those qualifications out of future profits."

Free education.

The only way that is going to happen would be for all businesses to pay for your education that they need and want you to have.

Its not going to happen in my lifetime.


Sun, 11/23/2014 - 01:22 | 5478322 Creepy A. Cracker
Creepy A. Cracker's picture

Actually it already does happen, and quite often.  Most companies, small and large, will pay for their employees to take classes, etc., to improve their skills related to the business.  Every organization that I've ever worked for has paid for me to continue my education.

If you flip burgers at McDonald's, no they probably won't pay for your education.

Sun, 11/23/2014 - 09:22 | 5478618 PT
PT's picture

The secret is to find those companies.  Come across it once or twice in my travels, but not enough to get a good leg up.  Better look harder, I guess.

Sun, 11/23/2014 - 10:14 | 5478669 StormShadow
StormShadow's picture

Well here is an example. I run a three plane private jet company. We hired three aviation college undergrads straight out of school. We spent $30K in training on each (Two jet type ratings at FlightSafety for the pilots among us). Here are are the results:

Hire #1 was a great employee for six months, then he spent the following three months checked out while he found another job. This is the problem with Generation E (Entitlement), they have zero loyalty to an employer who shows full loyalty and trust in them. They will better deal you the minute they see the opportunity.

Hire #2 was a great employee for a year before he had to return to his home country because despite us paying for lawyers and filing all applications he and his wife, who also worked for us and was fantastic, we're denied work visas and had to go back home. These were hard working, well educated, tax paying "folks" who followed all rules, yet they can't work for us anymore while 5 million ILLEGAL, non-educated immigrants will soon be able to work here at will.

Hire #3 is a fantastic employee who has remained with us and continues to do a great job.

So essentially we spent $100K to end up with one good employee over a two year period. That sound like a good deal to you? Think I'll continue to take those odds in the future? Hell no, it's cheaper for us to hire already experienced people. So the problem of new graduates being unemployable is systemic and won't change anytime soon.

Sun, 11/23/2014 - 10:31 | 5478694 MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

This is the problem with Generation E (Entitlement), they have zero loyalty to an employer who shows full loyalty and trust in them. They will better deal you the minute they see the opportunity.

You probably don't want to hear this, but rather than blaming other people for your problems, my suggestion is to fix them yourself.  Every time you have employee turnover, it provides an opportunity for reflection.  By scoffing off his departure as simply his own greed, you may be missing some valuable insights.  Ultimately, it is your job as an employer to incentivize people to stay.  When I hear "he was disloyal" I can every bit as easily hear "he wouldn't accept our shit pay and went someplace else that actually paid the market rate for his services, the ungrateful little bastard."  Or, maybe he simply tolerate your work environment...

Further, I wouldn't beat yourself up over it too much, because virtually no business in america has any clue about a properly incentivized workforce...  especially wallstreet.  It's actually one of the fundamental anomalies of society.  However, you don't really need to answer the question to get something in place that works very well and tends to avoid the problems you're complaining about...

You call us entitled, but often times the carrot that you're dangling is hollow and molded over.  If you really think one generation is materially different from another, then I've got a bridge to sell you.  

Sun, 11/23/2014 - 11:01 | 5478770 StormShadow
StormShadow's picture

You've never run a business in your life have you? The millennial generation IS fundamentally different from all others that preceded it. Your inability to self assess and admit that proves my point. And the next generation will be worse. It wasn't until having children myself and seeing first hand the coddling and miseducation of our youth that I could fully appreciate the rot within our system. This is not to say that within any given generation there are not some self aware individuals who rise above the fray. The problem is that with each successive generation there are fewer individuals who make the grade.

Sun, 11/23/2014 - 11:20 | 5478804 RKDS
RKDS's picture

Ah, the old canard "you've never run a business," handwaving away all of that scary criticism.  Consider yourself lucky that more millenials and GenXers don't start businesses and discover what a lazy, pompous, greedy, entitled, idiotic liar the average businessman is these days.

Sun, 11/23/2014 - 22:48 | 5480470 Leraconteur
Leraconteur's picture

What Generation E experience and ''feel'' as being lazy, pompous, greedy, entitled and idiotic is far far lower threshold than what someone would have thought 10, 30, 50 years ago. They expect the world, they have a tiny threshold for everything, and they want it yesterday.

I don't hire these people, but I see and deal with the consequences of their aftermath.

Their microscopic attention span, paired with the natural tendencies of early-20-somethings and the psyche-destroying nonsense they have heard since age 3, has resulted in a group of young people so spoilt and unreliable it is absolutely astonishing.

They all....and I do mean ALL...will just leave after 4 weeks, 3 months, 4 months on the job. No warning, nothing. They feeeeeeeuhhhllll that they deserve better and they simply walk.

Then I get a call to go clean up their mess to retain the contract.

Since this has happened nearly half a dozen times in 2 years, you will have to pardon me if my opinion of these recent college graduates is dimmer than yours.

Mon, 11/24/2014 - 00:50 | 5480684 MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

What about the relationship seems to not work, exactly?  Are these kids right, do they find better work?  Do you conduct exit interviews where the interviewee is candid and actively participates?  In every other situation, a business would investigate an aspect of its affairs that wasn't working...  I find it peculiar that business owners just throw their hands up and walk away from the issue, chalking it up to poor parenting or an entitlement society.  Maybe there's some projecting going on... 

Validating others' feelings might be a good way to learn about yourself.  Don't be shy.  Who knows, you might make a friend.

 

Mon, 11/24/2014 - 05:51 | 5480893 Leraconteur
Leraconteur's picture

My goodness your MBA was over valued.

What about the relationship seems to not work, exactly?

They want more money and don't want to wait one day for more. That they negotiated a contract with up front terms of pay is irrelevant. They want MOAR, NOW! By NOW, I mean in the next 15 minutes, or they leave the next day. They contracted for A, they arrive and by week 3 they want A+50%. They don't get it, and they walk.

Are these kids right, do they find better work?

No, they run home to mom and dad and complain, then hit them up for graduate school, or the less fortunate pack boxes at an Amazon Fulfillment Centre. They wire mom and dad for the air ticket home, too. Or go back home and sit on the dole. Or sit at home and surf the web on their iPhone.

Do you conduct exit interviews where the interviewee is candid and actively participates?

You should go into comedy.

You mean does the firm that employs me? No, they don't have time. These kids simply leave with no or little notice, an email from them as they split is the height of their social skill set. Most of the time they simply leave. The kids leave *poof* - gone in one day and with no notice nor warning. They simply up and leave.

 

 I find it peculiar that business owners just throw their hands up and walk away from the issue, chalking it up to poor parenting or an entitlement society.  Maybe there's some projecting going on... "

 

That would only make sense if the older employees, such as myself, the ones with experience, maturity and a sound head on their shoulders, did not stay, were not around to pick up the pieces again and again. There are many of us, we all share the same opinion of the young staff. We do the same jobs - we are not their supervisors. The kids simply can not cut it. The will not cut it. They don't want to cut it. They have a fictional view of the world, and if it does not comport they simply leave and run back home.

I have actually heard several of them complain about the benefits someone else gets - and they (of course) ignore the fact that the other person has been around for years and does not bring drama into the firm. The kids just see what others have, and they demand it instantly and when they don't get it, they throw a tantrum and walk. They want EKWALITEEE and they want what everyone else has. In the cases of the women, they want more. Entitled self-esteem monsters.

If the older more seasoned workers stay and clean up after wave up on wave of young Generation E, then it's the fault of Generation E for being a bunch of useless spoilt brats.

Mon, 11/24/2014 - 20:14 | 5483804 MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

Are you a manager at mcdonalds?  What kind of positions are you talking about here?  I sincerely doubt that you're hiring young professionals who behave this way...  someone with time and money invested in a career path probably isn't going to just walk.

Sometimes, people who hire employees are the same folks that have a hard time in personal, romantic relationships.  We end up picking the same type of people over and over again and wonder why it doesn't work out...  maybe your picker is off?

My guess is that you're hiring for something that no one should give a shit about...  and there are a myriad of other similarly situated prospective employers for the little kiddies to go annoy...  Hell, refusing to work may even be a better alternative than being in your employ...  but you're still expecting them to feel the same way about the job as you, someone who has a considerable amount more invested (and returned).  You might be able to hire someone that cares, but you might also be hiring someone with no plausible alternative.  Is this the kind of person one should pride himself on hiring?  [this is who has received all the jobs since 2008 for sure, but from a moral standpoint, I think there are a lot of things to consider]. 

There are plenty of books and studies on the subject...  to say that you're the first to make the observation would be a lie.  My suggestion is to take the key that's in your pocket and unlock your prison cell.  Do some research and avoid some headaches.  Which do you think is more likely, that a few decades worth of americans are incapable of work or that you simply cannot communicate with them?  Again, there is a really convenient answer and there is a really difficult answer.  When I find myself migrating towards the convenient answer, it is usually the cause of much concern.  You don't seem to be having that problem.  What are you planning on doing with the business once all of the wrinkle balls are six feet under?

PS, the same generation that is complaining about entitled kids are the ones who raised the kids...  essentially, they learned it by watching you.  Don't you remember those 80s after school specials?  WHERE DID YOU LEARN TO DO DRUGS, LITTLE TIMMY?  You dad!  I learned it from watching you! *father exits stage left with a crushed soul*

Sun, 11/23/2014 - 17:27 | 5479699 MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

Actually, I am self employed and my wife is likewise self employed...  I also advise many businesses on how best to run their operations.  But I do appreciate your stab at a non sequitur.  Please stay on topic.

PS, I challenge you to ask yourself whether your predecessors said the same of you.  While you condemn entire generations of people, I strongly suspect that society will somehow trudge along.

Further, any time my world view results in me being smarter than everyone else and better than everyone else, it tends to be a good time for reflection, which always leads to a reassessment.  While you might be right, the odds are you're just jerking your own chain.

Sun, 11/23/2014 - 11:33 | 5478841 PT
PT's picture

Yes, thanks for that StormShadow.  And that is why I ended that post with "Perhaps we need to think a little harder".  Ultimately the customer ( or boss - boss is just a privileged type of customer ) pays for the tools of the worker, or contractor.  And sometimes those tools include four years of university training.  Paying for four years worth of training is not the same as paying for a step ladder.  Whether it is the students left in the lurch or the employers left in the lurch, the damage is still in the system.

Sun, 11/23/2014 - 14:13 | 5478961 Creepy A. Cracker
Creepy A. Cracker's picture

It's terrible that the two left - one forced to leave by the government who refuses to force illegal employees to leave.

I'm curious, why not have an agreement that the employee must sign agreeing to stay on with your company for whatever term that you specify or pay back the money (include firing for cause in that)?  Although a pain, if they leave for gainful employment elsewhere without paying you back they have income that you can go after.  If nothing else it will make them think twice about using you for an education to be used elsewhere.

Sun, 11/23/2014 - 14:35 | 5479272 StormShadow
StormShadow's picture

Creepy, there is such a thing (pilot training agreement and/or promissory note), but it's very controversial. I've been in the industry 15 years and most employers require them for initial training and some for even annual recurrent training. They are costly and difficult to enforce. I also don't really care to have an indentured servant of sorts flying my $5MM jet around. We treat our guys well, not just in pay and benefit terms but time off, etc. I prefer to keep them around by being a judicious employer, not through a contract. We actually have quite low turnover. It is the millennials who present the most issues. We've actually been quite fortunate in picking out the good ones who "get it".

Sun, 11/23/2014 - 16:44 | 5479599 FreedomGuy
FreedomGuy's picture

It strikes me that there is a trial-and-error aspect of the free economy. What it takes to find and keep "good" people probably changes over time due to the economy, cultural shifts and of course individual variables. The employee is on the learning curve, too.

My current employer is not that great at what we do and it flattens my income because of it. However, they are genuinely nice people, especially at my local level. I know from decades of experience that that is hard to find. So, I hang on, do my best and hope things improve.

Younger people without much of a base of experience have more difficulty balancing those things out.

Sun, 11/23/2014 - 20:20 | 5480103 MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

We treat our guys well, not just in pay and benefit terms but time off, etc.

This isn't something that you, as the employer, get to decide.  This is something only other people, e.g. your employees, can determine.  You might mean well, but you're still at the mercy of what the other person feels about your actions.  Again, it's easy to lay the blame on someone else.  The truth is usually somewhere in between.

It is the millennials who present the most issues. We've actually been quite fortunate in picking out the good ones who "get it".

Unless you're planning on having old man balls fly your planes, my suggestion is to try and figure out what makes these folks tick.  The easy thing to do is label them as worthless.  You might even find that you can pay them dramatically less, while providing a more accommodating work environment.  The mix is for you to decide, but my point is that it is highly unlikely that you did not play a part any time there is employee turnover.

Also, I wouldn't necessarily hold low employee turnover as a feather in your hat.  It tends to be good for the bottom line, and for your own headaches, but it could be from a myriad of factors that cast a negative light on your business.  For example, I left a small business (10 employees) with incredibly low turnover.  Unfortunately, everyone who had been with the company for longer than a few years actually had a diagnosable personality issue, in layman's terms, they were doormats (dependent, among other things).  Many were economically chained to the work, had no self respect, and ultimately had no aspirations in life outside work (nor inside work for that matter).  The business was obscenely profitable, but yet a miserable place to spend the majority of one's life.  I could actually watch it killing them.  I'm sure this is a bit dramatic for your business, but even the smallest bit of resentment, over a long enough time period, can crack the foundation of even the best relationship.  Food for thought.     

Sun, 11/23/2014 - 22:42 | 5480452 Leraconteur
Leraconteur's picture

Your concerns are addressed by the soft skill level of both parties and their relationship around those soft skills.

Sun, 11/23/2014 - 22:40 | 5480447 Leraconteur
Leraconteur's picture

Storm it is very difficult to explain to those who have not done it or run a business, that employment is one million things not listed or written down or taught.

My situation is in an industry where everyone else tells me how poorly they are paid and treated. Yet I have an excellent deal.

Why?

I negotiate with my employer via a thousand soft skill add ons, favours and other things that everyone else ignores, misses or does not care about. As a result they are pleased I am around and they leave me alone. None of this is in my contract which is just like everyone else's. Yet I am treated far better than the words on that piece of paper.

One can also negotiate for and receive better benefits than the law allows, than the 'constitution' of where you are says you have.

There is nothing preventing someone from giving you MORE 'Rights' than your society says you must have.

None of this is in a textbook.

Sun, 11/23/2014 - 13:04 | 5479052 Winston Churchill
Winston Churchill's picture

You actually have a high success rate.

I have ten employees, after 15 years and well over a thousand through the doors.

Count yourself lucky.

Sun, 11/23/2014 - 16:40 | 5479587 FreedomGuy
FreedomGuy's picture

Some excellent points, Storm. I would suggest some sort of service contract for the educational benefits but it still does not guarantee a good employee. I did five years service for my education.

I really like the H1b visa comment. That was the part that shocked me in Obama's amnesty speech. He let's the low skilled, dysfunctional and welfare robbing class in while doing nothing for the skilled and law abiding. How many felons come in under H1b versus illegal border crossings.

Sun, 11/23/2014 - 14:58 | 5479342 FreedomGuy
FreedomGuy's picture

Lots of businesses do pay or subsidize or offer money post hoc for your education. This is done in medicine quite frequently. You have a job lined up and you get educational assistance.

The free market works over time precisely because of the freedom.

Leftists infest education because it isolated from the real world. Like all leftists projects they become parasites and live off government largess. The $1.2t debt is their inflated value and a measure of the good times that come from tapping the government treasuries. You will find loads of Ward Churchill fake Indians making six figures for stupid courses. It's a good life and subsidized by taxpayers and Obama has been doubling down to support his ideological base.

Sun, 11/23/2014 - 15:01 | 5479349 FreedomGuy
FreedomGuy's picture

By the way, where are the records from Obama's outstanding education at an oustanding institution studying and teaching Constitutional Law?

My guess: He registered as a foreign student, rarely attended class, had mediocre to weak grades and was a general ghost.

However, his degree did in fact lead to good jobs. So, it is an example for all of what a college education can do for you.

Sun, 11/23/2014 - 01:21 | 5478320 OldPhart
OldPhart's picture

I have one customer with fifty entities.

I have no student loans outstanding, mine were paid off ten years ago.

Graduated 1995.

Now I'm chief bean-counter.

Sun, 11/23/2014 - 05:49 | 5478525 Leraconteur
Leraconteur's picture

Ain't got the quals?  Can't get the job.  Can't get the job?  Can't pay for the quals.  

 

Sadly you lack the soft skills to figure out this puzzle, because obviously many people solved it.

Sun, 11/23/2014 - 09:35 | 5478628 PT
PT's picture

+++.  Very true.

Funny thing is, I was once 200th (out of over 300) physically standing in a line waiting for one of twelve jobs that I didn't want and I got one of those jobs.  Stayed there five years before I "managed to escape" to a better job.  Another time I have achieved 99% in an entrance exam to a job that I did want, shocked boss told me NO-ONE had ever scored that high in the test before (no need to get a head-swell, probably plenty of "smart" people simply never applied for that line of work), but no, I was still somehow "unsuitable" for that particular job.

As a youth, I spent all my free time studying.  I knew what I wanted and I went for it.  I think all that hard-core study caused me to end up with no people skills which causes me to find it hard to get work in the real world.  Victim of my own "success" /  "Excess"?

Whoever would have thought I'd need more people skills in order to further develop my technical skills?  Bit of a bummer, really.

Sun, 11/23/2014 - 10:34 | 5478709 MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

I think all that hard-core study caused me to end up with no people skills which causes me to find it hard to get work in the real world.

This is ultimately the most valuable thing you can obtain from your "education," networking.

PS, I sincerely doubt your lack of people skills was the result of studying a lot, rather you studied a lot because you lacked people skills.  Your cause and effect is backwards. 

Sun, 11/23/2014 - 11:39 | 5478858 PT
PT's picture

MachoMan re "... cause and effect is backwards." :  You could be right.  I give the odds 50-50.  Friends left town (Don't tell me I was that ugly!) so I studied.    I guess any other kid in a similar situation would have just got into trouble until they got attention.

Sun, 11/23/2014 - 20:10 | 5480067 PT
PT's picture

Re "... the most valuable thing you can obtain from your 'education', networking." :

Yes, shame I never learnt to take that one to heart.  Lesson filtering back from engineers to students:  "Your most valuable tool is your address book."

I heard it.  Never figured out what to do about it.  Even now, I resort to study instead of networking.  (Actually, now I am much worse.  I just read ZH all day.  Seriously need to turn of the net and get productive again ...)
 

Mon, 11/24/2014 - 00:42 | 5480675 MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

There's nothing to apologize about.  However, it seems you have some misgivings about your propensities...  there are people who can help you with that sort of thing.  In the end, I suspect that you're suffering from a "grass is greener" sort of issue.  We all want what we don't have.  Once you finally get it, whatever it may be rarely lives up to your imagination.  Most things are hardly worth dreaming.  If it is really something you want to change about yourself, then you're the only person standing in front of change...

Sun, 11/23/2014 - 11:06 | 5478788 QQQBall
QQQBall's picture

Put a camera in the classes and do distance learning with maybe 1 year on campus. Cut legacy costs. My neighbor told nme the lamscapers get pensions at UC?

Sat, 11/22/2014 - 22:14 | 5478002 seek
seek's picture

I agree, but we need two things, not one:

1. Get government out of student loan business

2. Student loans are dischargable in bankruptcy.

That will fix student loans. Without the discharge, plenty of scummy lenders will write loans to womyn's studies students to have a lifetime income stream -- sure, they might cap the loan amounts without the government backup, but you know unless there's a threat of complete loss of the income stream, they'll do the same shit they are now, just writ smaller.

Sat, 11/22/2014 - 22:24 | 5478018 Creepy A. Cracker
Creepy A. Cracker's picture

That works.  It will also cut student loans to virtually zero.  Which also works.  A college degree will have to become affordable without loans. Good all around.

Sat, 11/22/2014 - 22:31 | 5478029 seek
seek's picture

Nah, the 3.9 to 4.1 GPA nerds in high school going into engineering will have zero problems getting loans. The B students majoring in business administration will probably get a few bucks thrown their way. The C students applying to party schools and majoring in anthropology, now... they're fucked.

Sat, 11/22/2014 - 23:31 | 5478121 monoloco
monoloco's picture

As well they should be.

Sun, 11/23/2014 - 11:03 | 5478398 Dingleberry
Dingleberry's picture

No.

BK for a student would be a piece of cake.

They have massive debt. They have zero assets. and near zero income. BK in ten minutes.

Graduation parties would be replaced by BK parties....hence the law of no dischage of student debt.

On top of that, loan interest rates would rise to compensate for the insanity in lending to sophmoric dreamers.  On top of many other unintended financial consequences.

I for one would LOVE to see student debt discharged and the gov out of the student loan biz, as this would BK the liberal schools who preach shared sacrifice and socialism.....except of course for themselves.

 

Sun, 11/23/2014 - 09:47 | 5478642 FredFlintstone
FredFlintstone's picture

They won't be fucked (the C student), they will benefit since they won't have $30k in loans while working at Starbucks. They can work at Starbucks straight away from high school.

Sun, 11/23/2014 - 10:37 | 5478716 MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

Or they'll get a business loan and have a viable going concern where all the college graduates can come work by the time they get an education...

Sun, 11/23/2014 - 00:25 | 5478229 joego1
joego1's picture

How about all of the above and the student has to write a business plan and prove the studies are going to be able to afford the loan before they take off on a losing proposition.

Sun, 11/23/2014 - 10:37 | 5478717 Lanka
Lanka's picture

The government loan program fomented the demand for universties that allowed the universities to triple tuition rates and triple the salaries of the adminstrators.  Another worthless government program that must be killed.

Sun, 11/23/2014 - 12:45 | 5479011 Cathartes Aura
Cathartes Aura's picture

I know most posting here love to point fingers at phantoms, but seriously, you guys need to update your meme-arguments. . .

"womyn's studies" and "lesbian underwater basket weaving" - yeah, all the boys are taking those degrees, hmm.  and yet?

"business degrees" top the lists by far!  I'm sure they're all immediately employed. . .

Of the 1,716,000 bachelor's degrees conferred in 2010–11, the greatest numbers of degrees were conferred in the fields of business (365,000), social sciences and history (177,000), health professions and related programs (143,000), education (104,000), and psychology (101,000). At the master's degree level, the greatest numbers of degrees were conferred in the fields of business (187,000) and education (185,000). At the doctor's degree level, the greatest numbers of degrees were conferred in the fields of health professions and related programs (60,200), legal professions and studies (44,900), education (9,600), engineering (8,400), biological and biomedical sciences (7,700), psychology (5,900), and physical sciences and science technologies (5,300).

 

there are obvious degrees selected by gender, as has always been the case, the "career paths" are nothing like your imaginings.  "computer science" and "engineering" still male dominated choices, so I guess those degrees are still secure choices for guaranteed jobs, no? (cough)  "biological and biomedical sciences" though, starting to lose some ground. . . "banking/finance/" still a 2 to 1 good gamble for men, for now.

I find looking at the trending choices is very interesting to see how "culture" is shaping up for the future. . . particularly in such new memes as "Homeland Security" - who is choosing what path, etc.  doesn't hurt (much) to know what is actually occurring vs. what your prejudices believe to be "true".

Sun, 11/23/2014 - 13:48 | 5479148 Creepy A. Cracker
Creepy A. Cracker's picture

You need to update your ability to understand the word meme.

Sun, 11/23/2014 - 17:24 | 5479693 Cathartes Aura
Cathartes Aura's picture

meme

1 : an idea, belief or belief system, or pattern of behavior that spreads throughout a culture either vertically by cultural inheritance (as by parents to children) or horizontally by cultural acquisition (as by peers, information media, and entertainment media)

2 : a pervasive thought or thought pattern that replicates itself via cultural means; a parasitic code, a virus of the mind especially contagious to children and the impressionable

I'm cool with my choice of pixelated verbiage, Creepy.  lack of argument noted.

Sun, 11/23/2014 - 18:08 | 5479798 Creepy A. Cracker
Creepy A. Cracker's picture

Thank you for looking it up.  Now please go back and correct your writing.

You are welcome.

Sun, 11/23/2014 - 14:05 | 5479192 Jack Burton
Jack Burton's picture

Here! Here! Just so! + 1000

Love to see Women's Studies Teachers go out and get real jobs. These bitchs make a living off of trying to destroy the lives of men and women. And they do a good job at it!

Sat, 11/22/2014 - 21:41 | 5477954 Kreditanstalt
Kreditanstalt's picture

"Cash flow"?

"Earnings"?

"Pay OFF student loans"?

"Career"?

 

What planet are thse people FROM???  There aren't even any real JOBS...

 

Sat, 11/22/2014 - 21:50 | 5477956 Creepy A. Cracker
Creepy A. Cracker's picture

Dear Leader Obama's AmeriCorps.  It's all part of the plan.

 

Sat, 11/22/2014 - 22:11 | 5477997 hobopants
hobopants's picture

My thoughts as well, does it really matter what you studied when nobody can get a Job anyway? Nuclear physics might as well be basket weaving. 

Sat, 11/22/2014 - 21:42 | 5477955 Bro of the Sorr...
Bro of the Sorrowful Figure's picture

im sure when most of these brainwashed debt slaves graduate and cant find a job, theyll be quick to blame their situation on free market capitalism like good little useful idiots.

 

the corporations man, they kill the planet and send all the jobs overseas. that's why we need more regulations and bigger government and stronger unions and a higher minimum wage.

Sat, 11/22/2014 - 21:47 | 5477963 Seasmoke
Seasmoke's picture

You didn't study that. 

Sat, 11/22/2014 - 21:51 | 5477965 A Lunatic
A Lunatic's picture

Most kids go to college because they have been brainwashed and terrorized into believing they will be faced with a lifetime of toil and poverty should they choose not to. Most of them don't have a clue what they want to do/be, have zero job/life/financial experience and believe the same tired old "You can be anything you want" American Dream bullshit that is fast approaching complete irrelevance in today's world of limited opportunity. Also, when people, especially inexperienced adolescents, are spending easily borrowed money, the choices they make are drastically different than if they had to spend their own.....

Sat, 11/22/2014 - 22:07 | 5477989 New_Meat
New_Meat's picture

' "You can be anything you want" American Dream bullshit' ...

There was a time when I was growing up as a young piglet, they told me that "anyone can be President of the United States".

Then I saw the last two prez elections!

IT IS TRUE!!!!

- Ned

Sat, 11/22/2014 - 22:14 | 5478000 Sub MOA
Sub MOA's picture

wrong wrong wrong...these little asshats goto "college"  to avaoid working secondly because the retarded fail of an education system makes every fucking nobody ( no child left behind ...everyones a star...everyone wins FUCKING BULLSHIT losers are always gonna be losers ) a college attendee.... bottom line is party party party spend spend spend flounder thru an inadequate ed system (school then college)  then end up stocking shelves at walmart and bitching.  even far worse are the flunkies who become teachers taught by inept fascist assholes and then pass the same or even worse on to aother generation of the happles mindless dolts running through the ed system today and it all just keeps going round and round and round ....Face it America is Fucking DUMB DUMB DUMB.   No labor skills no cognitive skills just two finger typing skills for porn fat ass sluts on teevee face fucking and twattering ...and BLAME blaming everyone that isn't even remotely close to having the blame directed at .  Is just to much to deal with on a daily basis. I said b4 I still have some empathy left in me but the line between joyously watching these bastards burn and saving some of them when the time comes is wearing really really fucking thin.

one more thing NO ONE is not taking something they don't deserve from another we're all thieves from the FSA on up.  So fuck it if the slobs don't pay up keep filing taxes and padding the lines have another rugrat for tax breaks get a divorce for a tax break blah fucking blah if you're not cheating the jews you're cheating the neighbor carry on .................

-------------->Forward into the fucking void

Sat, 11/22/2014 - 23:46 | 5478143 NoPension
NoPension's picture

Rant on, dude! Banging away so hard you forgot commas and periods. It was good, though.

Sun, 11/23/2014 - 01:03 | 5478285 RockyRacoon
RockyRacoon's picture

You're saying that Jonathan Gruber is actually correct?  So why are folks raggin' on him so bad?  The truth hurts, eh?  What he said ain't the problem any more than what they did with the truth about the gullibility of the average American.  We get the government we deserve, as they say.

Sun, 11/23/2014 - 09:54 | 5478650 NoPension
NoPension's picture

Of course Gruber was correct. Not the point. The point is, he was the only one one with enough balls, hubris or stupidity to say it out loud. And in the process, give validity to the people pointing out all the flaws and lies of ObamaCare.
And what really pisses people off, the administration and the left are doubling down on the bullshit. We know they are pissing down our neck. We are frustrated because they are still trying to convince us it's a warm spring rain.
The multiple millions this asshat has been paid for his crap doesn't sit very well either.

Sun, 11/23/2014 - 11:18 | 5478811 Dingleberry
Dingleberry's picture

Agreed.

You are watching idiocracy except now it's not funny.  It's getting increasingly painful for even us non-retards.

Gruber, using logic 101, said the truth: people who supported this plan are too stupid for their own good.

We have to trick them into voting for something they would never be dumb enough to vote for themselves (i.e. unions paying the cadillac tax, the young subsidizing the old, etc.).

But public education has gone full tard. They are simply bastions of liberal propaganda, with a thoroughly complicit media complex.

And the shit gets bad,  (e.g. obamacare) as it must since reality cannot be denied.  When you see what was promised vs. what was delivered......nd have to part with your own money....that pain is enough to cause even the liberals to cut bait.

But, they are truly stupid as they double down on what got them in trouble in the first place.

You see this with these retards clamoring for more easy money into student loans, housing, etc.

An once of logic would tell them what happens to cost when easy money enters the picture, in any area.

They are literally demanding to become debt slaves and serfs.

No matter what, they will never openly admit they made a mistake or got duped by their messiah.  

Humans of all stripes have trouble doing that.

Including yours truly.

So I just don't make mistakes anymore.

Sun, 11/23/2014 - 12:55 | 5479032 Cathartes Aura
Cathartes Aura's picture

so where are these "millennial's" parents in all of this?  anyone giving them some advice that steers clear of the obvious cultural pitfalls at this stage of the game?

you ZH parents, how many of your kids have degrees/jobs/loans - where do they fit into these stats?  from past posts, I'd say most are still pushing the higher ed meme, so it obviously "works"??  your kids are the "exceptionals" right?

Mon, 11/24/2014 - 11:58 | 5481648 RockyRacoon
RockyRacoon's picture

Kids are always smarter than their parents... until it's too late.  True in my case as well.  At the ripe old age of 66 I'm beginning to see how my parents were pretty smart.  My own kids wouldn't follow my advice if I paid them to take it.

Sat, 11/22/2014 - 22:56 | 5478049 fleur de lis
fleur de lis's picture

When higher education knowingly creates millions of debt slaves by offering subjects that they know the market will not support they should be made to reimburse the students if they cannot find work after a certain period of time. Or they should be in the job placement business. They know very well which subjects yield livelihoods and which are dead ends.

The schools have to bear some of the burden. At this point they are putting society as a whole at risk by warping natural human development, preventing young graduates from working toward a new life and starting their own families. The students and parents should know the odds and then make an informed decision. It is not for teenagers to be sent to school to keep teachers employed at any cost. 

Sat, 11/22/2014 - 23:17 | 5478086 foodstampbarry
foodstampbarry's picture

I'm really surprised there hasn't been a class action lawsuit directed toward colleges for false advertising. If I sell a product and say it does x, y, z and delivers on none of those claims, I can be sued into oblivion. Why are the colleges exempt, while they destroy and entire generations financial future? 

Sat, 11/22/2014 - 23:28 | 5478112 fleur de lis
fleur de lis's picture

That is a perfect analogy. The schools advertise as places of academic development toward a career or at least employable skills.  Somewhere along the line college became an extension of a high school, except with a ghastly pricetag. In fact, a motivated high school grad who goes to a trade school and learns steel welding, AC and refrigeration, plumbing, mechanics, etc., can often earn a better paycheck than a college grad who has to settle for anything to start digging back out of indentured servitude.

Sun, 11/23/2014 - 00:17 | 5478198 The9thDoctor
The9thDoctor's picture

In fact, a motivated high school grad who goes to a trade school and learns steel welding, AC and refrigeration, plumbing, mechanics, etc., can often earn a better paycheck than a college grad

That was true in the 1990s and 2000s.  However, nowadays the mechanics, HVAC, plumbers I know get paid like $10 to $12 an hour now.  The market is so saturated now, and with new home construction going down, and people holding off on remodeling projects, there isn't a whole lot of work out there.  If you can get work, you'll be in the $25,000 a year range.  Good luck getting a home mortgage at these monthly rates on that salary.

If you are a millenial kid looking into the trades... don't.  It's glory days came and went, and good luck competing against more experienced workers, who themselves are struggling to get work.

I'll get downvotes from know-it-alls from their white collared cubicles, but I get this info from blue-collared folks I know personally.  The trades aren't what they used to be pre-housing bubble.

Sun, 11/23/2014 - 00:33 | 5478241 fleur de lis
fleur de lis's picture

These insidious "bubbles" affect almost everyone, but don't underestimate those blue collar jobs. They are required everywhere, maybe not as much lately but they won't become obsolete. 

Sun, 11/23/2014 - 05:47 | 5478523 Leraconteur
Leraconteur's picture

-All the trades are saturated mature labour markets that pay $25,000 a year.

-Nursing is a saturated mature labour market that pays $25,000 a year.

-All the engineers come from India and are paid $25,000 a year vs $60,000.

All of the fall backs, the industries to go into have been over supplied.

You are describing a country with no good jobs remaining.

I have claimed for years that the USA is a nation where everyone earns 22k to 28k and a few coastal cities skew the mean figures higher by a factor of 2x.

A ''good job'' is now a full time position with 2-weeks paid vacation that covers health insurance and pays $30,000 a year. That would not be a problem if the year were 1978...u

Sun, 11/23/2014 - 10:04 | 5478661 NoPension
NoPension's picture

A "Good" job now is a government job. That includes these many businesses that have popped up, and do 99.9% of their work with government.
The people and families I know, the most well off, stable and not concerned about the economy, are on the government payroll.
I know a husband and wife, both FBI, each making close to $200,000.00 a year! She's in a Benz. He's got a Vette. McMansion. Top shelf camper, with marble tops. And excited they are both about to retire soon. And the pension bucks kick in. It must be sweet. And yes, I'm envious and pissed these two turds are compensated like this on tax bucks.

Sun, 11/23/2014 - 13:06 | 5479054 Cathartes Aura
Cathartes Aura's picture

BINGO!  the current jobs that hover round anything .gov are some real FSA - and that includes anything in the "mandatory health care" pharma/hospital parasite roles - with degraded food/water systems that will only INCREASE ill-health, with incoming mandatory vaccines for whatever drama created, etc. THIS is a great area to get yerself a piece of paper that says you're qualified to care-take - the future war-economy will always need someone to pick up/at the pieces of bio-diseases/sickness, advances weaponry used will require someone to imagine those new limbs lost "in action". . .

same with "computer" degrees and "spy servicing" - a marriage made in heaven for ongoing future $$ - NSA-type jawbs will only increase, right?  as will such great careers as drone piloting, engineering jobs at the MIC growing corps(e), obvious choices. . .

Sun, 11/23/2014 - 22:35 | 5480435 Leraconteur
Leraconteur's picture

I am not envious of these folks, but I am (legally) not paying taxes to fund this.

With the internet, all the good tips, tricks and scams are now known by most people and the comparative advantage is now gone so there is little chance that someone 18 yo will be able to read this and do the same and retire in the year 2054 with a fat pension and healthcare benefits.

Then again, I am sure the Roman Senate paid well right up until it was burnt down by the Visogoths and others.

Sun, 11/23/2014 - 15:08 | 5479369 FreedomGuy
FreedomGuy's picture

I have distant relatives who are retiring from a life of government service (Hahahaha!) and the money they made and pensions they get are incredible. They had relatively low to no stress jobs punching the clock for about 40 years. I do not blame them for doing as well as they can and if I were them I would take it to. However, as a guy in the private work force going through multiple layoffs and salary reductions while still paying high taxes it sticks in my craw.

One of the features of leftist governments all the way up to the commies is that the government sector becomes a privileged sector. They have actual power over the private sector, can raid it for money and become a solid constituency for the party of the state. The private sector essentially becomes the bonded servants.

Sun, 11/23/2014 - 07:55 | 5478562 CuttingEdge
CuttingEdge's picture

Spot on 9th.

The UK is exacttly the same, and there is a very simple (though different) explanation.

Skilled plasterers, plumbers, electricians, bricklayers, carpenters etc used to be on £15-£20/hour.

An influx of two million eastern European migrants prepared to work for half that rate (and living 4 to a room) killed off any chance of school leavers considering a trade as a viable future (in addition to fucking over existing homegrown craftsmen, that is).

Sun, 11/23/2014 - 10:13 | 5478670 NoPension
NoPension's picture

Exactly what the Mexicans and Central American immigrants have done to our skilled trades.
When it started, they worked so cheap, it destroyed whole trades. Completely changed them from a trade a Native born man could use to raise a family to OUR standards, to you can't compete.
So many went out of business's, or moved on. Now, the Hispanics are the only ones left, and the pricing is not so cheap anymore. The big savings is most are underground , and the savings is with taxes and compliance.

A U.S. Born citizen, born and raised here, cannot compete with someone who never saw a toilet. Or a microwave. Our poverty is a life of relative luxury to them. We are off shored right on our own turf.

Sun, 11/23/2014 - 12:26 | 5478969 Dingleberry
Dingleberry's picture

I watched this dynamic in several industries.

You could make really good money laying cement, cabinets, etc.

Now Juan and his crew of merry illegals do it , under the table and shitty work. 

But it's done and at least looks good for awhile.

The one thing I could not fathom, even as a kid, was why the unions supported democrats that wanted more people to do jobs for even less.

I still cannot rap my head around those that vote for this. I fully understand the union bosses and politicos rationale for doing so.

 

Sun, 11/23/2014 - 13:14 | 5479075 Cathartes Aura
Cathartes Aura's picture

if "juan" does "shitty" work, then how is it that "juan" gets all your business?

isn't the storyline, the best skills wins the contract, the shitty skills hit the curb?

c'mon, how is it that EVERYTHING is shitty now, be it food/manufactured goods/education/trades/wages - how is it that nothing is the same as 40 years ago, when capitalism says the best offered is where the profits lie?

competitive.  the most competitve wins.  the cheapest labour will get the most work.  undercut your bids, it all adds up.  trim corners, pay less, more profit at the top.

isn't this what the storyline has been all your lives?  at what point has it deviated?

what IS the Truth?

Sun, 11/23/2014 - 15:26 | 5479320 Dingleberry
Dingleberry's picture

Gruber is the truth.

And so is Socrates.

The masses are incurably ignorant.

People want the cheapest shit they can buy....because they are broke and wages are stagnant.

Wages are stagnant due to central bank lying about inflation and severe competition for jobs by illegals, HB-1s, etc.

And they demand policies that ensure their own financial destruction.

As to your points about capitlaism......capitalism works great....provided the rules are followed AND ENFORCED.

But alas....they are not.

Of course, you mistake crony capitalism for what you erroneously call capitalism.

 

That IS the truth.

Sun, 11/23/2014 - 15:58 | 5479484 847328_3527
847328_3527's picture

The only two families remodeling this winter are both life-long gubmint workers. Oh, yeah, they also dumped their "old" 2012 cars for new BMWs and a Lexus suv.

Sun, 11/23/2014 - 17:34 | 5479717 Cathartes Aura
Cathartes Aura's picture

when did your "rule enforced capitalism" thrive as a pure example of what you're endorsing?  and where exactly did it exist?

 

I have no real arguments with your other statements, as they really point to the FACT of globalised commerce/production/peoples.

so no real need to defend the State we all exist within, though we may differ as to who it directing the show and who might be to "blame".

Sun, 11/23/2014 - 17:54 | 5479765 Dingleberry
Dingleberry's picture

Of course everything is relative.

We have always had corrupt markets, polticians, etc. What we have today was a slow descent into immorailty and the abyss.

But ON BALANCE....the rules were enforced after the Great Depression and the reigning in of Wall Street and until we went off the gold standard and finally the repeal of glass steagal, dereg, etc. Which of course led to blatant fraud and crimes from the banksters.....but alas, not even the president of the little people can bring himself to charge those responsible. Contrast that to the S&L scandal, and the thousand who went to jail. That was the corruption from the top down.  Banksters are now untouchable.

 

Things went off the rails bottom up after the first amnesty, performed by both parties, with the promised enforcement of borders and employment whcih was never even attempted.  So logically, another 10-20 million illegals came in as they were enticed to do so by history, politicians see an exploitable voting block (sanctuary cities-which are universally feral), with full media endorsement and even the fed government itself which loves to void local enforcement of any illegal immigration law.

Incredibly, deportation was never an option. It supposedly "couldn't be done".  Funny how we managed to corral the entire Japanese population overnight during WW2.  

So that only leaves one recourse.  You are living it now. With the obvious aforementioned consequences.

 

We have now come to a point of no return. The fraud at the top continues unabated.  The endless supply of new illegal statists/democrats flows in like a torrent.  And this latest charade will entice the next batch to come just like the last time. And despite overwhelming public opposition from both sides of the aisle, nothing will stop it.

And law is only enforced at the local level, IF you happen to live in a decent hood.  And you know that will not last indefinitely.

This is the price we will all pay, one way or another.

You're welcome.

 

Sun, 11/23/2014 - 18:17 | 5479822 Cathartes Aura
Cathartes Aura's picture

and "you're welcome" to your narrative, historically promoted.

I prefer to see the storyline as having guiding hands all along, nudging everyone into defending their corners, and conflicting beliefs to distract from what has been intentionally happening since before any of us were born,

that the corporations we live in, with their imaginary boundaries moved/re-moved whenever "needed", each with a slightly different set of laws/rules/history taught the taxed inhabitants - but always stressing the competitive angles! - all set up for the occasional "world war" but certainly always picking off the spoils in perpetual "conflicts" that support the War Machine corporate profiteers.

useful tools like "beliefs" and "religions/gods" and "national pride/flags" and global "trade clubs" and debased fiat currencies, and resource grabs, and genocidal weaponry used on "other" folks, while never acknowledging the "blowback", hence record numbers of uniformed suicides because

the knowledge of that reality is too fucking hard to bear without going insane.

ahhh, I could go on, but I reckon you catch my drift. . .

 

Sun, 11/23/2014 - 00:37 | 5478247 DanDaley
DanDaley's picture

...a motivated high school grad who goes to a trade school and learns steel welding, AC and refrigeration, plumbing, mechanics, etc.,

 

Plus those jobs can't be outsourced to India, China, etc.  I tell this to kids all the time...get some freaking SKILLS that can't be sent overseas.

Sun, 11/23/2014 - 02:05 | 5478374 fleur de lis
fleur de lis's picture

Hopefully they listen to you. Blue collar jobs are far more important than academians would have us believe.

Sun, 11/23/2014 - 10:20 | 5478677 NoPension
NoPension's picture

Re-read my post above.

Sun, 11/23/2014 - 20:58 | 5480194 fleur de lis
fleur de lis's picture

Which one do you mean?

Sun, 11/23/2014 - 15:07 | 5479368 rejected
rejected's picture

But insourcing is a piece of cake. Pay one of Obamas illegal army $3/hr and your american counterpart who requires $18 is royally screwed. Loses the yob and is skilless college bait.

Sun, 11/23/2014 - 00:05 | 5478187 Wilcox1
Wilcox1's picture

In my junior level tax accounting class the prof told the class in the first week that the instruction should not be considered as prep for a job.  He said go up the street to the h&r block to learn how to do tax for a living. He didn't actually say it, but the implication was that we were taking a tough personal tax class for personal enrichment. That's one of the best ways the educators have of avoiding the responsibility of turning out productive graduates. Your time at the university is for personal enrichment; even if you are studying tax accounting!

Sun, 11/23/2014 - 21:10 | 5480231 fleur de lis
fleur de lis's picture

At least he told you the truth about how the system works. Even if he didn't, you're an accountant and will always find work. Think of those who get advanced degrees in sociology, ethnic/womens studies, etc.,--they get no such warning. Those fields are fine if they bring work, maybe in a museum or a foundation, but the spaces are very limited. More often than not they take anything they can get to start paying the bills. For that matter they would have been better off taking courses for the sake of interest only, they'd be the same in the end and they'd still be smart enough to realize it won't necessarily lead to work. 

Sun, 11/23/2014 - 10:43 | 5478731 MachoMan
MachoMan's picture

I'm really surprised there hasn't been a class action lawsuit directed toward colleges for false advertising. If I sell a product and say it does x, y, z and delivers on none of those claims, I can be sued into oblivion. Why are the colleges exempt, while they destroy and entire generations financial future?

Already happened quite a few times...  what do you think was the first thing the young lawyers without a job prospect did after graduation?  The last I've heard, the cases have either been thrown out or went nowhere...  I would think a major impediment would be sovereign and qualified immunity, but if you don't have anything better to do, then fire away...

Sun, 11/23/2014 - 15:09 | 5479375 FreedomGuy
FreedomGuy's picture

Failed or short lived sports stars have done this. Part of their lawsuits are that they have phoney degrees, as well.

Sat, 11/22/2014 - 23:54 | 5478162 NoPension
NoPension's picture

We have a private college close by. My buddy worked there just before the school year started, a couple of months ago.
The job HAD to be done in 30-40 days. Major renovation. Holes in roof to slide steel beams in. Then patched and matched exposed wood roof/ ceiling. A million $ of work. ..........
All slated to get ripped out in the spring for a major expansion.

These fuckers are making the government look thrifty .

Sun, 11/23/2014 - 00:14 | 5478202 fleur de lis
fleur de lis's picture

All this work has to be paid for. You have to ask where does the money come from, and how much is there that they can spend with such wild abandon. Follow the money.

 

Sun, 11/23/2014 - 01:07 | 5478294 RockyRacoon
RockyRacoon's picture

That's known as the Bastiat remodeling plan.

Sat, 11/22/2014 - 22:59 | 5478076 RichardParker
RichardParker's picture

" Also, when people, especially inexperienced adolescents, are spending easily borrowed money, the choices they make are drastically different than if they had to spend their own....."

A Lunatic; +1 

"Also, when people, especially CONgress, are spending easily borrowed money, the choices they make are drastically different than if they had to spend their own..."

There, fixed it for you.

 

 

 

 

 

Sun, 11/23/2014 - 01:43 | 5478351 OldPhart
OldPhart's picture

I tried to go to college back in the 70's when the Calif System was fully free.  Couldn't afford the books or the gas money.

Busted my ass for fifteen years.  THEN hunkered down and went to school.  I think I did it right.  I already knew enough from life to call bullshit on most of the crap offered and had the balls to argue with instructors.

My learned experience was that jobs were, at best, temporary.  You bust your ass until a company goes broke.  You bust your ass and do so well that your boss takes over what you built and fires you.  You get fired for attending the birth of a child.  You write software that saves $3.5 million in costs and are thanked and let go.  You save a multi-billion account and are suddenly the poster child for 'How to succeed in business without really trying' and write software that is so efficient (for the time) that union benefit funds defer to you in reporting and collection...then let go when the fund goes self administered because you lacked a college degree.

So, yeah, you do face a lifetime of toil and poverty unless you have some sort of college or vocational training.  What we're missing in the equation is VOCATIONAL training.  Some aren't cut out to be accountants or womyn study types.  They're better at welding, auto repair, furniture makers...and that training is poorly supported.

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