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Guest Post - Amps Times Volts Equals Watts

Cognitive Dissonance's picture




 

Amps Times Volts Equals Watts

By

Mrs. Cog

 

 

 

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It seems a bit backwards that we Cogs have spent this cold, snowy week immersed in learning about the pros and cons of solar energy. Too windy to cut wood and too wet and slippery to be outside except for chores, Cog began tackling the tricky issue of using a solar powered system as a backup power supply for our well. The devil is in the details he carefully explained. “Amps times volts equals watts.”

Gently teasing me about my status as a former urban princess, meaning one who expects to have things work at the flip of a switch and to pay someone to fix it when it breaks, Cog pointed out I came into this homesteading experience with little to no technical understanding of household systems. Electrical, plumbing and structural concepts were for the specialists, not homeowners who don’t even know that ‘amps times volts equals watts’.

Having relocated to our mountain in order to live a more self-sufficient lifestyle, it has not been lost on me that relying upon ourselves means becoming a generalist who can evaluate, design, build, and maintain many systems at a basic proficiency level. The learning curve has been steep and often comical as I have tackled becoming a gardener, cook, and herbalist. But these tasks have paled in comparison to the knowledge Cog teaches me about the modification and upkeep of our home. It has been particularly difficult for me to remember that amps times volts equal watts.

Why can’t I remember that? Amps are carefully considered when calculating the electrical surge needed to start an electric motor, a brief and sometimes very powerful draw of energy. Volts are kept in mind when powering the typical household device or appliance we use. We plug regular things into a 120 Volt outlet. The dryer, stove and well pump are each on a 240 Volt line, thus the funny plug on the appliance and the big clunky outlet it gets plugged into. I thought I finally understood it all since I had now scribbled it on a sticky: amps times volts equals watts.

So we simply needed to set up a solar collection system with enough watts to meet our goal, which in this case was to run the well pump. Although our well is shallower than others on the mountain it is still quite deep, nearly 250 feet down. Hand or simple electric suction pumps do not work at that depth. So during a long term power outage, when our backup generator runs out of propane, it would be wonderful to switch the well pump to solar energy for a sustainable water source. Easy-peasy because amps times volts equals watts.

As I asked more questions Cog vacillated between feelings of frustration and laughing out loud at my Star Trek impression of “Make it so Number One.” It seems that in my enthusiasm to find a quick and easy solution I managed to oversimplify the whole matter in much the same way people who are used to writing a check to pay the contractor often do when they don’t want their heads filled with details, but just want the damn thing to work. Still in the mindset I learned in Consumerism 101, Cog offered up “it’s not just about the watts honey.” No, it is! That’s what it says on my sticky: amps times volts equals watts!

It was during the back and forth with Cog as I continued my solar education that my talents as an expert word-maker-upper came into play. I discovered that the technical jargon could be altered to better describe the process or function, something which still makes us both laugh each time it is used. In this way we can smile over what was previously a dry and serious matter. In fact, the new lingo came about as Cog was showing me that while amps are all equal, some amps are more equal than others.

 

Existing Solar Setup

The exisitng very small solar setup.

 

To illustrate the problem Cog outlined this issue of amps as I grabbed a legal pad and began scribbling notes. The sun shines on the solar panels where energy is collected and funneled into batteries via a charge controller. The tricky part comes in converting that stored battery power to run a household electrical device. For that you need an inverter. Solar inverters are very touchy as to ‘watt’ quantity of amps you need to draw.

The motor in our well pump needs a swift kick of amps to get it started, a temporary surge if you will. Cog explained to me this electrical kick is called an “in rush” and he bought a pricey clamp meter to not only measure the current in a wire from the outside, but to measure the surge to start the pump. He was so funny, almost excited when the UPS guy brought his new toy. With this we would discover ‘which’ amps times volts equals watts.

As we tackled the measuring of the surge with Cog’s new “in rush meter thingy” we turned on various faucets to force the well pump to kick in. Move over Doc Brown because our well pump’s “in rush” of amps might as well have been 1.21 giga-watts after watching Cog’s reaction. For approximately 2/10ths of a second the pump required 57.5 amps to start the motor. Doing the math, 57.5 amps times 240 volts equals 13,800 watts. We’re gonna need a bigger flux capacitor.

Typical quality (and pricey) inverters provide around 4 to 5,000 watts of continuous power with maybe an 8 to 10,000 watt ‘surge’ capacity. So a quality inverter that could handle our well pump would be a seriously expensive upgrade. Thank goodness Cog is stubborn and continued making phone calls as he searched for answers to our new dilemma. He discovered a gadget called a “soft start” controller which basically stretched out the time of the initial energy surge required to start the motor, thereby reducing the amps needed all at once. I dubbed this the “in rush slower-downer.” Perhaps with this device we would need less amps times volts to equal fewer watts?

But alas, a subsequent conversation with an expert at the manufacturer of our well pump confirmed the well pump motor would not last long with the in rush slower-downer, aka the soft start controller, in place. The electronics and capacitors inside the ‘standard’ well pump motor require a massive jolt of amps to turn the motor over and overcome the water pressure already in the pipe running to the surface and onward to the house. Essentially it would quickly burn out the motor. With the solar collection system we were considering, sometimes there just aren’t enough amps <sigh>.

Cog did discover that the same company who manufacturers our well pump also offers deep well pump systems already set up for solar with a type of soft start device designed in. Unfortunately, the cost is on par with the flux capacitor inverter we would need for the 13,800 watt surge in our initial design. Watt to do, watt to do?

So, for the immediate future our backup water supply remains a clear babbling creek, inconveniently located several hundred feet down a steep and uneven logging road at the foot of our property on the edge of the mountain. While this actually helps comfort me in my process of emotional bargaining, consoling myself that we have alternatives in place should we need to actually become sustainably self-sufficient for a long period of time, we need to find a way to get our water to the top of our mountain. For now, the power to do that remains locked in the simple formula: amps times volts equals watts.

 

Mrs. Cog

11-27-2014

 

What's a watt?

Amps Times Volts Equals Watts

 

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Mon, 12/01/2014 - 12:11 | 5504666 Gunther
Gunther's picture

Cog,

almost 14 kw seems a lot to start a 3/4 hp motor that has no load.
Depending on the type of your pump it might help to start the pump without pressure in the line. Likely there is a check-valve somewhere in the line. Try to open the line before the check-valve and start the pump. If the valve is close to or in the pump, try to start without pressure in the line. If that reduces the starting load you know where to improve.
For a backup of a backup opening a valve by hand, starting the pump and closing the valve may be acceptable and affordable.
At home I can start a 0.5 hp and 0.33 hp sum pump together with an inverter that delivers 2.3 kw permanently and double that for starting loads. The inverter has a soft-start circuit and the centrifugal pumps do not require a lot of torque at low rpm's but still the required power is way smaller.
Hope to help you a bit.
Gunther

Sat, 11/29/2014 - 14:13 | 5499270 Gunther
Gunther's picture

Cog,
a few suggestions for your system:
Some pumps require less power when starting against no pressure.
Ask the maker of the pump or test the pump yourself; once connected to the piping and once with disconnected piping or an open valve close to the pump.
If lowering pressure helps:
The simplest way is an valve you open, start pump, close valve.
Better would be a automatic valve to open the line and a check valve to keep pressure in the system.

Something like this is used to start small single-phase AIR compressors without pressure in the air line but I don't know if such a device is available for well pumps or could be made fit.

On the DC side of your installation look for cables as short and thick as possible because the current there is even higher then on the ac side.
I hop my thoughts help.
Gunther

Fri, 11/28/2014 - 18:23 | 5497648 Lumberjack
Lumberjack's picture

On the above ground water storage idea, If you find a large enough tank, use a pto generator... Great for irrigation too.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Brushless-Bearing-6000-240V-Generator/dp/B003QBIOK8

 

I hope you have a small tractor with a pto... 

Fri, 11/28/2014 - 12:20 | 5496576 Lumberjack
Lumberjack's picture

Cog, Some readers offered the idea of above ground storage and that would be a good idea. However, I would imagine you have a backup gas/diesel/propane generator on site. I would recommend, depending upon the inverter configuration using the generator to start your pump. Inverter configutartions I have used in the past were the Trace (now Xantrex) SW 5548. I had installed 2 banks of Surrette 8cs25ps batteries series/parallel. The bank was sized for 1 weeks storage to accomodate the seasonal resource variations. He also had a 15 kW propane geberator for backup and the propane was also used for cooking, radiant heating and the dryer. My customer had a well at about your depth and never a problem with motor starting.  

I always doubled the size of the battery bank to resolve issue like you are having and for reserve storage. If you cannot afford the equipment upgrades, maybe your inverter config would be able to start your generator to provide the initial power needed for water pumping. 

If you happen to have a stream nearby, check out Canyon Industries for their small/medium size hydro units, those work wonderfully too. 

Fri, 11/28/2014 - 13:03 | 5496734 Lumberjack
Lumberjack's picture

Edit: The inverter(s) were 2 stacked SW 5548 units.

Fri, 11/28/2014 - 17:24 | 5497524 Lumberjack
Lumberjack's picture

Also, how long is the wire run to the well? and is it copper or aluminum wire? What size? Another item to look at is the capacitor on the pump motor defective?  I will throw these out not knowing what you have for components and as a subscriber to your news letter (fjm...), would be willing to try to assist. You do great work here and thanks. 

Fri, 11/28/2014 - 19:22 | 5497835 Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture

Thanks for all the suggestions. I give the details of the pump, wire size and run length further up in the thread as well as the actual pump model numbers.

I see you are running stacked 48 volt 5500 watt inverters. To duplicate that setup would cost nearly $4,000 plus batteries plus panels, charge controllers, etc etc etc.

We really don't wish to put that kind of money into a solar system at this time.

Fri, 11/28/2014 - 09:17 | 5496054 whoopsing
whoopsing's picture

Thinking about your problem, seems head pressure needs to be reduced  so as to reduce starting load on the pump . Perhaps a siphon system that pulls pressure out of the well pipe before the pump kicks on (basically running the water back down the hill in a pipe with a solinoid operated valve at the end which would need to be a bit lower than your source water level. Some added check valves and controller issue's, but just might do the trick.....spit-balling here....

Fri, 11/28/2014 - 09:53 | 5496132 Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture

Thanks for the ideas.

It all depends upon the pump. Some pumps don't like check values, some do. Franklin tells me my pump does not need or want a check value.

When these guys design a pump they design it with cost in mind. So they are not always done 'right', but done to make a price point.

Fri, 11/28/2014 - 09:06 | 5496031 graveheart
graveheart's picture

I recently overhauled my water well system after 17 years. Went with a 1/2 HP 240vac Grundfos pump (you can barely tell it's running) max current 6a sitting at 100' depth. Put in 2 pressure tanks. This allowed me to build a smaller backup solar power system. I went with a Schneider split phase 240vac 2500 watt inverter, Renogy monocystalline 200 watt solar panel kit with a 20 amp mppt charge controller and meter (budget but works well). 4 UPG agm batteries for 220amps (series-parallel 24vdc), 0 gauge cables inverter/battery. I keep my pressure range low (on/off at 28/48psi). Takes less than 5 minutes to fill the tanks and barely puts a dent on the batteries during tests. 

Fri, 11/28/2014 - 09:50 | 5496121 Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture

Yes. Specility pumps such as Grundfos would solve that portion of our problem because they require less of a start up surge. But your pump is 100' feet down and mine is 250' feet down so I need more than a 1/2 HP motor. Grundfos says 3/4 HP and Franklin agrees. BTW FRanklin also has lower surge pumps for sale. Just need more money.

And your 6 Amps times 230 VAC equals 1380 watts so your inverter is fine for running the Grundfos. I would need an inverter slightly larger, say 3000 watts to run my 3/4 HP motor. But it is the surge I have to deal with, not the running. I suspect replacing the pump is the way to go, but I hate pulling out a pump that is working.

Fri, 11/28/2014 - 12:27 | 5496603 graveheart
graveheart's picture

The Grundfos only runs at about 400 watts, max surge is like you said about 1400 watts but I doubt it gets close to that high. This inverter can take a 4000 watt surge for 5 seconds. You can get the 4000 watt version of this inverter for under $1500. But with the right pump you could use the 2500 watt version ($1200). These Grundfos pumps ramp up slowly not like the old one I had that goes full blown on startup.

Fri, 11/28/2014 - 03:43 | 5495877 malek
malek's picture

While an EE, I'm not the total expert on larger electric motors but this one sounded off to me:

it would quickly burn out the motor

While it is true, even if counter-intuitive, that a slow-start while limiting peak amps overall will use more electrical energy and therefore produce more heat to get your pump running, I was first a bit dazzled why that would run danger burning out the motor. But then I read you consider it normal use to have every few minutes while the water is running and the pump is cycling. Yes, if you have starts every few minutes a slow start might burn out the pump.

But then the main point is you need to have the pump run longer and start less often, i.e. you need water storage capacity at or slightly above ground level!

 

Fri, 11/28/2014 - 02:37 | 5495841 patb
patb's picture

don't trust your clamp meter, the resolution is poor,  better to get a fast oscilloscope and trap the waveform.

 

 

Fri, 11/28/2014 - 08:36 | 5496011 onthesquare
onthesquare's picture

an oscilloscope measures voltage.  To measure voltage drop and therefore amps you will need a very low resistor ie 1 ohm with a serious wattage rating.

Fri, 11/28/2014 - 02:21 | 5495832 janus
janus's picture

nice spread, Cogs...beyond all the I, E & V calculations, there's some other things you're gonna have to bear in mind down there.  cannabis, for example, is a plant that needs at least 2/3rds a day's sunlight...y'all got quite a lot of trees scattered about.  may have to cull one or two to make way.  you know, for the weed.  word to the wise: tip your sheriff.  

janus has been drinkin and his mind's been tangled in the dense undergrowth of our modern age this Thanksgiving Day.  what's to be made of it all?  and as much as i love this holiday, i've always had this hollow feeling on Thanksgiving...almost like something was missing...as if Thanksgiving were wanting symmetry -- like it were hemispheric or incomplete.  

and so i gave it some thought...how does one go about improving Thanksgiving?  we can't just sit back and pretend that pilgrams and injuns congregated around a table carving turkeys and comparing gourds is substance enough to make a whole holiday.  no-no-no...this won't do for a drama-lovin amorican public.  Thanksgiving needs a villain; and that's where janus comes in.  i'm gonna revolutionize this holiday forever!  no more will children sleep soundly on Thanksgiving eve; they will instead quake in tremors and wake in cold sweats when they hear the stories of 'janus the menace' and his guerrilla campaign to quash this savage giblet fest.

so, without any further ado, i present to you all the 'real' history of thanksgiving:

once upon a time, late last night/early this mornin, janus went to go meet a friend of his named doc in a vacant supermarket parking lot.  doc and janus go WAY back; he's this wild-eyed character with long grey hair and far-out ideas...doc was always tinkering in his lab, looking for answers that hadn't any questions.  doc also had the hook-up for the primo KGB (killah green bud).  janus arrived at the appointed time to meet doc and pick up a lid of some new hydro-ponic strain called 'mist of marakesh'.  anyway, long story short, janus and doc are sittin in his delorian tokin on a number and groovin to some tunes, and then, out of nowhere, a minivan full of terrorists start racing our way.  doc freaks.  

look, i knew doc ran with some shady characters...but terrorists in VW minivans?  and, wouldn't you know it, they're packin full auto.  doc gets out to negociate...seems he'd queered a deal with these moors -- something about some isotope of plutonium and allah akkbar and white devils and all kinds of sand-nigger jibberish...i can't remember it all; that mist of marakesh is the shit...i was stoned outta my mind!  i do remember doc screaming, "floor it!  get her up to 88 and you're golden, janus!"

i promptly dropped two terrorists with my 9mm, extinguished the joint, slammed the pedal to 88 and adjusted my rearview mirror just in time to see doc lose his head to the glory of the caliphate.  i have to admit, when it comes to decapitations, those sand niggers know their shit.  

"sucks to be you, doc."  i said to myself as janus was transposed without matter or dimension through time and space.  i eventually skidded to a stop in a cranberry bog right outside plymouth, ma...november, early 17th century.  bummer!

thanks alot, doc...you goddam geek.  why didn't you set the dial to LA, 1988?  looking around that dreary bog, i started to understand those terrorists and their methods.  doc probably deserved his fate...leave janus freezin his ass off with no flux capacitor in a foggy cranberry bog!  yeah, fuck you too, doc!  

he left me some weepy three page letter, but i ended up using it for rolling papers.  

lemme tell you something, time travel and mist of marakesh will give you some kinda appetite!  i was so hungry, i could'a eaten an indian...raw.  i'm sorry, i mean to say that i could'a eaten a 'native american'...raw.  no matter, the point is still the same.  and it isn't so much that i wouldn't eat a pilgram...i'm not prejudice, after all; it's just that, when it comes to turkey, janus prefers the dark meat.

off in the distance i espied a plume of smoke spindling through the barren limbs beyond a clearing.  as i approached this signal of civilization there was in me no doubt that vittles would be easily obtained; packing a glock 9 and two spare clips, these pilgram swords and injun spears were no match for metal traveling a thousand feet per second.  simple minded fools had no clue what was stalking their way.

seeking to make a grand entrance, i strutted right up to miles standish and preformed this continent's very first atomic wedgie.  

"you're in my chair, milesy-baby."  janus sez all sinatra-like.

"wha-wha-what lo!  what is this the meaning of this wild affront, good sir?!?"  

"scram, shoe-buckles...and watch this."

like i was saying, i wanted to make a grand entrance.  so i leveled the 9 at the horn of plenty sitting square in the midst of that oaken table, ripped out three rounds whose report seemed to echo forever and ever; the whole spectacle was meant to punctuate my entrance -- to give em something to remember; to inspire in them a sense of wonder and awe -- to with my mysterious thunderstick woo them into worship ...and then, woe is me, i went too far again.  understand, janus takes a different view of things; and it was rather upsetting to see all there gathered instantly devote all their pity to that 'poor' preacher hidden behind the horn of plenty.  i really do have the worst of luck.  

and then it seems i made things worse; in such occasions, it's probably best not to offer to say the Thanksgiving prayer in the dead preacher's stead -- particularly if you're the one who just shot him.  but, look, whether or not they appreciated the gesture, my heart was in the right place.

that kind of collateral damage is just the price you pay for time travel.  fortunately, all the bustle and over-heated wailing cleared the table and janus was able to pig-out whilst those pilgrams and savages tried to comfort that 'poor' preacher's kin.  i did my best to block it all out.  all that exclamatory grief will sour the ripest of appetites...and those nasty looks they kept casting at janus -- that shit wasn't helpin things one bit.  

they were downright rude.  and they call themselves Christians!  at one point, i politely asked for some more gravy.  will you believe, not one maiden or wench offered to fetch the gooey brown stuff for janus?

about the time my ipad was running low on batteries and i couldn't take the mourning any more, i kicked my feet up on the table, drained a pint of ale, grabbed my thunderstick and sorta wanded it across the lot of those gathered.  

"all right, party poopers, now bring out the dancing girls!"

"but, lo, goodly sir janus, we knoweth not of what you speak."

"know this, fair maidens, ye shall dance for me tills i tells ye to stop.  and ye shall do it in thine pantaloons.  that is how this shall be an entertainment for me."

"pray, thee, sir janus, spare we from such-like; and we shall instead bringeth thou thine gravy."

"nay, maidens, dance ye now...my thunderstick compels ye."

and things sorta went downhill from there.

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjNTu8jdukA

janus 

Fri, 11/28/2014 - 02:04 | 5495819 JoJoJo
JoJoJo's picture

A river flowed out of Eden to water the garden, and there it divided and became four rivers. 11 The name of the first is the Pishon. It is the one that flowed around the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold

Gold is first mentioned in the Bible very early on because of its importance - in the land of Havilah. Genesis 2:10 

Fri, 11/28/2014 - 01:45 | 5495803 zerohedgejjxxzz12
zerohedgejjxxzz12's picture

Bottom line is there are many different ways to skin a cat, I see that many people have given some great advice, although the conditions that you need to fulfill are your own and they will change from time to time wether it be seasonally or generally with progression or as money becomes available.

I like smaller less expensive systems that can be added onto as time and money become available.

Two smaller pumps can be better than one big one wether they are electric or wind powered. ie... If one fails you have a backup/ stagger the initial and replacement costs.

A larger reservoir will way outlast a larger pump and of course reservoirs can be multiplied. therfore a greater savings can be acheived.

My advice is to not run out and make quick decisions, therefore doing things twice or wasting valuble resources in the process.

 

 

Fri, 11/28/2014 - 01:11 | 5495764 the grateful un...
the grateful unemployed's picture

for the public utiility excess capacity is spread across a wide number of users, enabling a small number to make a greater than normal demand on amps. but you as a single provider to yourself, now you need extra capacity. for that you may need to run your batteries in series, rather that in a parallel grid. that requires heavier wire and more losses. you may even need to consider a 240 volt motor (for which the start amps put less demand on the system).  i assume you have a holding tank, you could increase the size of the holding tank, and that might be more cost effective. the preferred solution for solar is to return the power to the grid, (capture future credits) of course when the service goes off line you are in a quandry. and the duration of the outage is significant. to your advantage you have some seasonal parameters, so you can plan. you could also use the solar to run the electicity in the house, and use a standby generator to run the pump. its a question of assiging soilar amp hours to places where there is no surge demand, and redirecting traditional backup electrical generator power to the pump. who said living ona farm was easy?

Fri, 11/28/2014 - 08:51 | 5496021 onthesquare
onthesquare's picture

pull  the electric pump out and lower a simple piston pump.  Just like the one that great grampa had on his well.  The pull rod will need to be 250 feet long and inside the water supply line.  That in itself will make the pull rod heavy but that weight can be countered to zero with a pivot and counter weight system.  When the supply line is full of air it is easy to pull on the pull rod but as the supply line fills with water then it will get heavy as you are moving all that head ie. 0.42 lbs per foot of water and you will need over 100 lbs of force to deliver water out the top of the pipe.

that need only happen once.  If you fill the supply line with water and put more weight on your counter weight to balance the system then you need only apply a small upward force and viola water will pour out with little effort.

In the old days they would drill a hole in the water supply line to below the frost line to make sure that after pumping the water the top of the supply line would leak down to below the frost line and next time pump would deliver water.

You can adapt this system to solar or wind power.  Using wind you may be able to find an old livestock watering system made in the good old days by Chicago pump or Raymond.

Fri, 11/28/2014 - 04:30 | 5495882 MEAN BUSINESS
MEAN BUSINESS's picture

I did once upon a time ; )

but this is easy! I find it odd that all of a sudden it's a crisis at Dis Cabin

buy a quantity of liquid fuel tanks, fill at cheap prices. Sit back LULZ

{EDIT I did baby. I did.}

{EDIT EDIT fixed my spelling mistake and want to point out the resonance in the video; it's about battery power and it crashes to the ground at the mention of THE white house!

p.s. most anything grundfos rocks meanwhile....

Fri, 11/28/2014 - 00:47 | 5495721 zerohedgejjxxzz12
zerohedgejjxxzz12's picture

I always try to do things like Able in this story below.

The time you save allows you to develop a better life!

How Saving Grows The Economy

Thu, 11/27/2014 - 23:48 | 5495635 gonetogalt
gonetogalt's picture

Cog, I'm late to the party, but as a miner I've learned that the simplest fix is often the best. Have you considered inducing a very small leak above the pump (where casing would prevent well erosion from the high pressure stream) to bleed off head? You can actually pull the pump yourself with a jeep winch and a couple of pipe wrenches.

Thu, 11/27/2014 - 23:52 | 5495641 rsnoble
rsnoble's picture

Actually the simplest fix would be a clear cut trail to the creek and a tree limb with a 5 gallon bucket on either side and do it the old fashion way and then you'd really be prepared from mechanical disaster.  It's not like you're going to be taking 30 minute 300 gallon showers in the midst of chaos.

Miner? Got any amazonite crystals you could make me a good deal on? 

Fri, 11/28/2014 - 00:10 | 5495674 Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture

500+ feet to the creek on a 200 feet rise. We live on the side of a mountain. Not exactly a clothesline setup, but I get your point.

Fri, 11/28/2014 - 01:31 | 5495785 the grateful un...
the grateful unemployed's picture

water storage is the cheapest most reliable solution. can you capture rain water as well? the use of well pumps came about to serve mining, agriculture, and ranching. (they have largely proved that ground water can be a finite resource) you need to adapt these tools to your own needs. when the mine is done, the well is dry, and the cattle have moved on, the land is worth nothing. you want something sustainable i assume. so you need to be considerate of the longevity and quality of your groundwater, and your neighbors and their demands on the same resource. 

Fri, 11/28/2014 - 01:03 | 5495745 zerohedgejjxxzz12
zerohedgejjxxzz12's picture

No ofence to sub MOA,  

but...

A friend of mine on a remote island ran a 3" pipe approx 1000 ft long  with over 50ft of elevation down to a pelton wheel, at the wheel 100psi with no water running, approx 75psi with the water running  it produces  360 watts 24/7/365 after all the batteries are charged it heats an electric hwt and hot water base board heaters to heat the house.

  I would much rather waste my time with this kind of energy/time saving ideas than cut haul and split firewood.

The new device will allow me to manufacture/invent other time/energy saving producing equiment.

 

 

Thu, 11/27/2014 - 23:48 | 5495634 rsnoble
rsnoble's picture

Then you have guys like me that can build almost anything and have no desire to do so.  I just don't have any passion for anything anymore.  None at all.

And the wattage chart is only confusing for someone that doesn't understand algebra it's nothing more than the commutative property. 

I still maintain the opinion that if things get really bad that preparation is only going to account for 10% or less of your survival chances.  The rest will be pure luck.  I don't like the odds so i'm not bothering with it.  If shit gets to the point I can't deal with it anymore i'm just going to blow my head off and finally leave this stupid ass planet forever.  I've really had a lot of thoughts lately as to what's the point of all this bullshit anyway.  I'm not a religious person at all and i'm not turning to fairytale BS to put a meaning to it all.  Yep, bad attitude lately.

Fri, 11/28/2014 - 01:09 | 5495761 shovelhead
shovelhead's picture

No need to get so drastic.

My fallback retirement plan is a failed bank heist.

3 hots and a cot and plenty of leisure reading time.

A little green baloney won't bother me much.

Thu, 11/27/2014 - 23:21 | 5495588 zerohedgejjxxzz12
zerohedgejjxxzz12's picture

Mr. & Mrs Cog,

Another nice addition to your cabin/house would be a solar hot water tube heater.

I have installed one 3 years ago, I use it to heat my hot water and/or to heat my kitch/dng rm tile floor, a very nice, almost free (need to run a circ pump) way to heat part of my house and keep those tile floors warm.

 I am an Electrical Contractor, and I could of chosen to heat the floor with electric heating cables at a fair price (wholesale parts from my supplier and free labour supplied by myself) but this system cost about the same to install and is much much cheaper to run than paying for electric heating bills. Granted if there isn't much sun it does not work, but when there is a sunny day, it is very much welcomed.

 

Thu, 11/27/2014 - 23:21 | 5495532 YHC-FTSE
YHC-FTSE's picture

It's been so long since I had to remember P=IV that I actually looked it up to make sure that it was the same as the article before posting here. :)

Twenty years ago I bought my first house in the outskirts of London, an old almost derelict place, and like all cocky young bachelors, I invited my friends round for a house warming as soon as I moved in, all the walls still bare and rather unkempt. One of the friends was a senior member of my club, a retired royal navy man and he gave me some valuable advice about owning a house that I remember to this day:

A house is like a ship and as the captain you must learn all its systems: Environmental (air and temperature), defensive (roof and mortar), power, plumbing, and secondary backups, as well as the stocks for the galley. If you have no crew to do it for you, you have to make maintenance schedules and tests to make sure the ship can weather any storms that may come its way. A badly maintained ship may one day cost far more to fix than you can afford and may even cost lives.

I had never seen a house in that light before - a complex system of operational processes that provide me with security and comfort that must be learned and maintained. Your delightful story reminded me of that first revelation all those years ago. Many thanks.

Fri, 11/28/2014 - 04:10 | 5495897 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

LOL, yes. In fact, if you have lived on a small yacht for a while, a rural house becomes easy. Yet yes, both are machines

Thu, 11/27/2014 - 22:46 | 5495522 zerohedgejjxxzz12
zerohedgejjxxzz12's picture

I have wired many wells that have run dry in the heat of the summer. Some folks (lol) have installed many storage tanks to buffer the well.

Storage tanks can be installed and added overtime as funding accomodates.

 

Thu, 11/27/2014 - 22:39 | 5495499 Sub MOA
Sub MOA's picture

After reading all this I have to laugh.  I'm not dissing your efforts or wanting to learn for that I applaud you greatly.  

 

What I do see here is the want to drag all of the "lazy Luxuries" forward in the event of the SHTF.

Try to make this easier.  get a good hand operated wellhead pump..build yourself a water storage tower (easily and cheaply done )  and also a water/rain trap system (also cheap and easy)

I live 5 miles from an amish farm community  believe me simpler is better ...and lets face it if shit gets bad enuf for all this fancy bullshit you're trying to rig up is just fooling yourself into believing you can still have a "cushy" life...  Like I said I applaud your interest but the truth of the matter is all the timeand massive costs  spent on it will be for naught.  solar panels are a target easily taken out  same with windmills....   I teach survival courses your best bet is to learn to live via the past.

 

If shit truly gets bad enuf to need this there won't be the local electrical supply house open for replacement parts ...Think simpler It may save your ass

Thu, 11/27/2014 - 23:03 | 5495533 Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture

In case you didn't notice, the piece was intended to be humorous. :-)

And I agree that thinking simple is desperately needed. But we have no intention, at least at the moment, of living the Amish lifestyle. And while anything can become a target if people are that desperate, we have no intention of preparing for the worst case in every aspect. We did not purchase this place as a survival place. If that was our intention, this place would not have been considered.

We wanted to simplify our lives and living conditions without going to ground. We are not preppers or survivalists. We live in a remote area and are quickly interfacing with the locals. We wish to live here in harmony with the community. And our lives are far from cushy. But we do run a small business and website out of our home and thus we do need something more than a wood stove, melted snow and soup packets in order to live. :-) 

Thu, 11/27/2014 - 23:03 | 5495549 Sub MOA
Sub MOA's picture

As I stated no disrespect sent your way but to do what you want to accomplish will only cost you more than just "staying on the grid".  whether a prepper or not the cost alone and time monkeying with the ideas will make you nuts ..I watched this happen to many a sane man in the past 15 years.

 

Just throwwing out an alternative view nothing more :)

Thu, 11/27/2014 - 23:21 | 5495584 Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture

You're talking to Cognitive Dissonance. Nothing makes me nuts because I already am nuts. :-)

Thanks for the back and forth. I really do understand your position and it is valid. Just not for us at this time.

Thu, 11/27/2014 - 22:51 | 5495530 zerohedgejjxxzz12
zerohedgejjxxzz12's picture

I do not disagree with the simpler the better idea, although until TSHTF try to get the best cenario of a comfortable system at the best price.

A little knowlegde can put you far ahead of the caveman that lives on the property beside you.

Thu, 11/27/2014 - 22:56 | 5495541 Sub MOA
Sub MOA's picture

Everyone loves comforts no doubt but being ahead by already living "simpler" and adjusted will make it that much easier on the whole family  and you will still be miles ahead of the "caveman" next door !!   Oh and 90% of "preppers"  are doomed to fail... they "think" to much and make things harder then they should be...I teach people to learn from the past ...we didn't survive this long because of refers air conditioning and running water !

Thu, 11/27/2014 - 22:46 | 5495523 Nadine of Tyrol
Nadine of Tyrol's picture

Thumbs up to the hand operated wellhead pump with a water storage tower.  We Tyroleans have had this system in play for quite some time and it certainly does the trick.  And ditto on the Amish.  I have had a lot of business dealings with the Amish in Ohio and they certainly know how to survive in the natural world as God made it.  I have learned more from them than I have from any modern prepper type.

Thu, 11/27/2014 - 22:52 | 5495531 Sub MOA
Sub MOA's picture

Hey just a note for you folks on city water with a little doing and the right type of well hand pump when the water flow goes down with the electricity and what not you can still suck a few thousand gallons of shitty tap water out of the system ...the right tools and pump can go along way...even if you need gas LOL shhhhhhhh

Thu, 11/27/2014 - 22:30 | 5495493 zerohedgejjxxzz12
zerohedgejjxxzz12's picture

Honestly the best configuration is the small dc pump with a resevoir above the house.

 this way small pump =small price & small inverter

 Save lead plates on batteries

if well pump fails, water in resevoir is a buffer of time to get pump repaired or replaced

 if pressure system pump fails, gravity feed until pressure pump repaired or replacement.

if no power to run pressure system pump, the gravity feed will work until power restored.

 if well ever runs dry in hot summer or during heavy load, water in resevoir buffers the well.

Fri, 11/28/2014 - 04:06 | 5495895 Ghordius
Ghordius's picture

a reservoir above the house is the preferred solution in nearly all countries around the Med up to the ME. a question of aestetics, sure, but unbeatable

Thu, 11/27/2014 - 22:00 | 5495440 zerohedgejjxxzz12
zerohedgejjxxzz12's picture

Think of it as if it were an air compressor, when the tank is empty, it starts quite well, but when the air compressor has a lot of air in the tank they sometimes will not start without blowing the breaker.

 The problem with your well pump isn't when it is running, the problem is getting it to start with the load of the water behind it. If you could maybe open a valve and let air into the system so as to get the water to drain back into the well(the water in the line), it would be a lot easier to start the motor. then once it is running close  the valve again and let it pump.

What I would do in this situation, would be to use a dc pump, a very small one that does not use much power, one that your solar panels could run without the use of the batteries, (although batteries can be recharged, every bit of usage  puts wear and tear on the lead plates which consumes them somewhat, this is what shortens their life) and then a resivoir above the house,  let gravity and a pump from there  pressure the system for consumption in the house.

This way if your batteries are charged the panels can spend the rest of the day pumping water to fill your resivoir. without consuming the lead plates, Batteries are very expensive to replace, you certainly do not want to replace them any sooner than you have too!

 

Thu, 11/27/2014 - 22:42 | 5495511 Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture

I do understand the wisdom and merit of your advice.

While the world is still held together by chewing gum and derivatives my wife and teenage daughter would like water on demand with lots of pressure. Lots of pressure. All of us would prefer, at least for the moment, to enjoy the comforts of a pressurized household water system that requires zero turning of valves and switches.

When we return to cavemen living conditions we will all be forced to make due with what we have or can salvage. But then again, it will be a Brave New World so anything goes. :-)

Thu, 11/27/2014 - 22:44 | 5495521 Sub MOA
Sub MOA's picture

You do understand that your well pump is not the supplier of your water pressure don't you?   your pressurised water holding tank supplies the water pressure via an air filled bladder the pump merley maintains the filling of the holding tank ! 

Thu, 11/27/2014 - 22:56 | 5495539 Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture

Yes I do. But there remains 230 feet of water in the pipe above the pump. And that water, at least when the pump is cycling on and off as water is used, remains under pressure.

Thu, 11/27/2014 - 23:15 | 5495573 Sub MOA
Sub MOA's picture

A check valve at the pump may help reduce the negative pressure (the water in the pipe pushing against the pump) on the pump which will allow it to start easier thus reducing the "hard cranking amps" that it is trying to draw

Thu, 11/27/2014 - 21:42 | 5495417 zerohedgejjxxzz12
zerohedgejjxxzz12's picture

There will be a tremendouis amount of voltage drop over that lenght of cable, especially during the inrush period.

 The more current you try to consume the more the voltage drop on a given wire.

 Use your voltmeter during the inrush period and watch what the voltage drops to during this time, if it drops below the 240v considerably, that would mean 2 things, one, wire size too small and/or inverter too small, A bigger inverter may not solve the problem with a wire size thats also too small. Under voltage can really shorten the life of any motor.

During your inrush period of 57 Amps there will be approx 18% voltage drop (approx 45v). Using  a # 8AWG wire( one size larger) would limit this to 11% or approx 28v. Something to keep in mind. 

Thu, 11/27/2014 - 21:58 | 5495442 Cognitive Dissonance
Cognitive Dissonance's picture

I did not install the well or well pump, which means the wire is what it is. Before I go too far I want to look further into wire size and more accurate measurements of current and voltage. I suspect you are correct regarding wire size being some of the issue, though it does meet spec for the Franklin pump. Then again, it is assumed the pump is running off the utility and not a PV system.

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