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Guest Post: What Americans Celebrate On Thanksgiving Day
Authored by Paul Craig Roberts,
When Americans celebrate Thanksgiving, they don’t know what they are celebrating.
In American folklore, Thanksgiving is a holiday that originated in 1621 with the Pilgrims celebrating a good harvest. Some historians say that this event is poorly documented, and others believe that the Thanksgiving tradition travelled to the New World with the Pilgrims and Puritans who brought with them the English Days of Thanksgiving. Other historians think the Pilgrims associated their relief from hunger with their observance of the relief of the siege of Leiden.
The Pilgrims’ Thanksgiving, if it happened, might not have been the first in the New World. Historians say the Virginia colonial charter declared a Day of Thanksgiving in 1619, and other historians say the first Thanksgiving was observed by the Spanish in Florida in 1565.
Apparently, the different English colonies and later American states each had their own day of Thanksgiving, if they had one. Abraham Lincoln tried to make Thanksgiving a national holiday in 1863, but the country was divided by the War of Northern Aggression.
Thanksgiving became a national holiday with the completion of the Reconstruction of the South after the War of Northern Aggression and the extermination of the Plains Indians by the Union generals in the 1870s. This taints Thanksgiving as a celebration of the preservation and expansion of the American Empire and accurately reflects the goal of the political forces behind Lincoln.
Today, Thanksgiving is simply known as “Turkey Day” and a time of retail sales. But as you eat your Thanksgiving meal, contemplate that what you are really celebrating is an Empire rooted in war crimes. If Lincoln had lost, and if there had been at that time a Nuremberg War Crimes Tribunal, Lincoln, Grant, Sherman, and Sheridan would have been hung as war criminals.
Sheridan was probably the worst of the lot. His war crimes against the South, especially those he committed in the Shenandoah Valley of Virginia, must have been forgotten by Southerns who vote Republican, the Party of Lincoln and Sheridan. But Sheridan’s crimes against the Indians were worse. He attacked the Indians in their winter quarters, destroying their food supplies, and sent professional hunters to exterminate the Buffalo, declaring: “Let them kill until the buffalo is exterminated,” thus depriving the Plains Indians of their main food source.
Considering the enormity of the Republican Party’s crimes against the South, it is a testament to the forgetfulness of people that Southerners vote Republican. Sheridan expressed well the Republican attitude toward the South, declaring on several occasions that “if I owned Texas and Hell, I would rent Texas and live in Hell.”
In the 1870s when Democrats won elections in Louisiana, Sheridan, who had power over the state, declared the Democrats to be bandits who would be subjected to his military tribunals.
Sheridan graduated near the bottom of his West Point Class, but his immorality and viciousness propelled him to the rank of Commanding General of the US Army. Today he would delight in the endless US bombings of women and children in seven countries.
Note: The War of Northern Aggression is the South’s description for what those dedicated to preserving the Union called the Civil War. The South’s term seems more correct. The Union forces invaded the South. A Civil War occurs when contending parties engage in violence for control of the government. But the Southern states were not contending for control of the US government; they exercised their right of self-determination and withdrew from the union into which they had voluntarily entered. It was an act of secession based in divergent economic interests between an export agricultural economy in the South and a rising industrial economy in the North in need of protective tariffs. The Southern secession was not an act of war for control over the government in Washington.
Unionists saw secession as a threat to empire. Another country could be a contender for the lands to the West. In his books, The Real Lincoln and Lincoln Unmasked, Thomas DiLorenzo makes a case that the War of Northern Aggression was waged in behalf of empire. He quotes Lincoln to the effect that he would preserve slavery if it would preserve the Union, and, if memory serves, DiLorenzo quotes Lincoln’s generals advising him not to throw a bone to abolitionists by saying it was a war to end slavery or much of the Union army would desert.
Today Americans think of themselves as citizens of the United States. But in 1860 people thought of themselves as citizens of states. When Robert E. Lee was offered a top command in the Union army, he declined on the grounds that he could not draw his sword on his native state of Virginia. Lincoln used the war to establish the supremacy of the central government in Washington over the states to which the Constitution had given most functions of government.
The supremacy of the central government that Lincoln established advanced the forces of empire.The “war to end slavery,” like the Iraq war to protect America from “Saddam Hussein’s weapons of mass destruction,” looks more like fictional cover for the employment of violence in pursuit of empire than a moral crusade.
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The victors write the history.
Most people don't know that Jamestown, VA had been settled for seven years when the "Pilgrims" arrived at Plymouth Rock.
ZH'ers are fighting the same enemy/struggle that we Southerners fought.
And it will be OK.
Appomattox was only halftime.
Lemme tell ya' what we're celebrating.
The Injuns (feather not dot) brought a whole piss load of left overs to the starving pilgrims, wanting to get John Wayne's autograph, in return for which they were given smallpox infected blankets.
That's what the fuck we're celebrating and if anybody thinks otherwise, they have their heads stuffed up their asses, because that's what the hell we did to say thank you to those people. And sent the survivors off to God forsaken shithole reservations where we plied them (they who have a genetic predisposition for alcoholism) with unlimited booze.
Booyah.
Just fucking booyah
Early this morning felt like revenge for the booze thingy.
"smallpox infected blankets"
If you like your blanket you can keep your blanket...
"But as you eat your Thanksgiving meal, contemplate that what you are really celebrating is an Empire rooted in war crimes."
Those were the most delicious war crimes I ever ate a couple hours ago.
Yes, war crimes. Yes, we're the ONLY society that's ever taken it's place in history through genocide or unethical wars. If it hadn't been for us, the world would be perfect. We're awful. We should be exterminated. Blah, blah, blah.
I'm going for a helping of leftovers now, unless somebody has another politicially correct objection.
When the real day of reckoning comes this will all be very small (mashed) potatos. And no, there won't be any gravy.
So......We ass-fucked some folks?
aw fuck it. people don't know jack shit about a lot of stuff, this just scratches the surface.
the injuns weren't innocent woodland hippies wandering around communing with nature.
That's very true... they were running around killing and torturing each other by the hundreds. Every male enemy who was captured was savagely tortured for days on end until he died. Cruelty beyond all belief. Look it up.
Also, some more inconvenient history...
Did you know the biggest slavers during the 1600-1800s were other blacks. You think the white slavers went into darkest jungles of Africa to find slaves? No way. Other blacks brought them them to the slavers by the thousands. And profited handsomely for betraying their "black brothers." And slaving continues in Africa today - it never ended there!
Of course, revisionist-MSM history and Liberal public school history courses won't tell you these things. No, they have to protect frauds like Feauxcahontas Elizabeth Warren and the Congressional Black Caucus.
Joseph Goebbels is proud... very proud.
How many black bankers are there? Or better yet, how many black Federal Reserve heads? How many Indian (feather) bankers? And how many White Federal Reserve Chairmen co-wrote with Rand as a percentage versus blacks or indians? There's some inconvenient history for you. I'm scared of bankers and Federal Reserve chairpeople. Are you worried about getting tomahawked at the grocery store while you use your Chase card?
The real story (and lesson of) Thanksgiving is indeed one of economics.
But it is a story & lesson collectivists (via public school teachers) want to keep hidden from the general public in the latest iteration of "You didn't build that!"
That is to say, true capitalism works and leads to a bountiful harvest that can be shared wherever its tried. Socialism (without the whip across the back) fails miserably everytime they're compared side by side.
Its what Bradford and the pilgrims discovered...
http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/documents/v1ch16s1.html
...to all with eyes, read it and understand it.
So to sum up this article in one sentance:
Thanksgiving is bad because Republicans.
Another gripping expose by MSNBC!
you think the indians (casino not tech support) didn't do their share of killing too?
lol...not sure if the pilgrims were dims or pugs but what they all discovered was, the collectivist model of individuals working community property, the fruits of all their labor to be given out equally, almost led to them starving to death.
You will always have some who produce more and some who produce less, its human nature. The ones who produce more begin to (in Bradfords words) repine, as they only get to keep the same amount as the one sitting under a damned shade tree all day staring at the clouds.
It was only after the "community land" was divided up, owned and worked by individual families who were then allowed to keep or trade their excess for something else they wanted or needed, that an abundance was had.
To sum up the history of the pilgrims & the reason for Thanksgiving (the passage is from the diary Bradford kept) is capitalism works everywhere its tried and communism always fails ;-)
If you lived near a reserve you would be, They are raised on such a diet of racial hated and free government money it makes ferguson look like a church picnic. As long as the checks for booze never run out i am safe.
I was just struck by some similarities between Native-Americans, and African-Americans.
Mostly,
Ignorant, violent, killing each other off, and should be confined to secluded reservations.
Sorry, not PC.
For fifty years now we’ve been giving breaks to blacks, and not just Affirmative Action.
We abolished federal Civil Service exams because blacks couldn’t pass them. Our colleges turn away nonblack kids so that less well-qualified blacks can be admitted.
We shower public money on bogus claimants to farm-loan discrimination. Our media observe exquisitely sensitive protocols in reporting black-on-white misbehavior, while inflating the flimsiest allegations of white-on-black misbehavior to the level of national crises.
We gut admissions exams for police and firefighter jobs so that blacks can be hired, and pay extravagant compensation to applicants who failed the un-gutted exams. We likewise gut standards for college debate, replacing structured, reasoned argument with incoherent squawking.
We have pretty much dismantled our civilization in an effort to accommodate blacks.
And still they complain.
They did exact their revenge, killing countless millions of their old enemy:
They taught the white man to smoke.
The US was always the Rosemary's Baby of countries.
The dupes are still believers though.
Here in Canada there were few direct military massacres of aboriginal people, but similar efforts to trick them and maximize the death toll due to pestilence. There was also a systematic government program to confiscate children and force them to attend schools far from their homes where they were abused physically and sexually while being brainwashed to forget their language and culture. Being the modern civilized people we are, we closed the last if these "schools" in 1998.
Thats not true, they were just sent to catholic run schools. Being abused is just part of the curriculum no matter what race, creed or color the student is.
They should have learned to smelt metal...
Those Asians that crossed the ice bridge into Alaska in the last Ice Age became "Native" Americans, and promptly killed off all the Wooly Mammoths and the Saber Tooth Cats. I'm still upset about that.
Knuckles, are you my ex girlfriend?
I miss you, chiquita.
Call me Rich-Text
I miss you, chiquita.
The shithole reservation land only lasted until the gummint needed uranium. Only government can take a shithole, and make a bigger shithole
Not that it matters but the South started the war in Charleston, SC. That FACT is widely recognized. Funny it was left out of the article. To reiterate, the South started the intentional and deliberate killing. That there might be considered a war crime too ya know.
Both sides were wrong. The south was more wrong is all. Get over it like people need to get over slavery (something that happened 150 years ago between people who are no longer alive). Do it again without slavery and I fully support you (might have to move there just to escape what is coming here and to be a prick).
Albert Pike started the war. He was the Grand Master of the Scottish Rite, headquartered in... Charleston, SC. The Commanders of Ft. Sumpter (Union) and Ft. Moultrie (Confederate) were Scottish Rite Masons. The purpose of the war was to unite the separate States under one Federal power.
Otto Bismarck, Mason extaordinaire, and Pike's friend, faught the same federalist war in Germany, Prussia taking the side of the North, and Austria taking the side of the South. Austria lost the war (1866), and Bismarck incorporated Bavaria, Wurrtemburg, Baden, and Alsace into the Prussian "federation". Then Napoleon 3 declared war on Prussia and got his ass WHUPPED. Germany was united in a "Federal" system under the kaiser in 1871.
SIMULTANEOUSLY, Italy was suffering its own wars of unification , under the leadership of Mazzini, another friend of Pike's, and a Mason. King Victor Immanuel was the figurehead (like Lincoln, and Kaiser Willhelm). The war of Italian unification lasted from, you guessed it, 1866 to 1871.
These wars were part of the master plan, leading to a One World Government. First federal states of regions are set up, then continental economic bocs, then subsumation into a wolrd government.
The Civil War, if it had anything to do with slavery, was a war to make EVERYONE a slave.
Excellent dot-connecting.
Had not realized all the other unification wars ongoing in parallel...
Tall tales, history as we are taught it...
It was about building EMPIRE. IMPERIALISM.
Ever read of the US Monroe Doctrine? James Monroe declared that the Western Hemisphere was the domain of the USA. He told other European Nations that the USA would not tolerate European Colonization in the Western Hemisphere.
(Even the War of 1812 was an American act of aggression against England as we wanted to invade and annex Canada...kicking England off of our continent, out of the Western Hemisphere, and in accordance with the Monroe Doctrine. We got our asses handed to us. But we were willing to fight to enforce that edict. We were into Empire Building also. The empressment of US Merchantmen was the excuse.)
Of course the European Nations did not like that Monroe Doctrine..
So while England was financing the Confederate States of America, France saw the opportuniy and invaded Mexico during the USA's War of Northern Aggression. They saw that a divided United States was a weakened United States which could not afford to repel them.
It was only after that France's treasury was depleted by the failed Mexican Campaign that they were defeated by Bismarck's Prussia.
(It is actually amazing how well Mexico had recovered after being defeated so soundly by United States forcees during the Mexico American War of 1848. They had recovered well enough to repel the French invaders.)
Of course Federalism and Nationalism was part of it. But it was much more than that. It was a struggle by the European Powers for Imperial Supremacy that was the cause of the turmoil in the 1860s and 1870s as it set the stage for The Great War of 1914-1918.
By the way Lincoln, before the first shots were fired in Charleston Bay, was contemplating declaring a state of War against England.
What Nation was financing the Confederacy before it even took form?
It was our pals, the English.
wonderful theory, but it leaks, badly. both the German and the Italian reunifications were driven by nationalism, which was in many ways a radical notion in those times
both european regions involved were always the playball of the Greater Powers, in particular France and Austria, and both had a common culture and a common language mainstream
where your theory leaks is that after the two reunifications, the German Empire and the Kingdom of Italy saw themselves as nation-states, powerful nation states that were, for long time, the main counter to any "world government"
even today nationalism is the enemy of globalization or any too tight form of internationalism
and this was even more so when fascist Italy and nazi Germany were fighting against... socialist internationalism and "liberal free trade" internationalism
Good ole Ghordius, cannot stand conspiracy theories :-)
Border based nationalism is a cancer. Cultural and linguistically based tribalism is the most stable order.
CUNTries are too big, even the little ones, they are bound to fail. India is a shining example of a diverse population bound together under flag/border and a brainwashed sense of one national identity.
Borders should be zones of osmosis not military division.
I don't whether to like this or not like it.
I ended up down voting you -- as our power brokers would find a creative way to define culture, and fuck us even harder than they are right now.
Haus, culture means a different thing, in the US. You have an American Meta-Culture, and encourage immigrants to adopt it, together with English as a common language. Your history is tied to it, otherwise Texas and many other US States would speak... German
He is an Indian. And Old Worlder. Culture runs way deeper, in the Old World. It goes back to the cliche that Americans are "culture blind"... while having a strong cultural war raging on
yes, your "our power brokers would find a creative way to define culture" might (or might not) be correct. But only in the American context specifically, and arguably in part in the "Anglosphere", i.e. that part of the world that speaks English
And our Indian friend here knows what I am talking about, then India itself was part of the British Commonwealth
India (and China) has lots of ancient cultures (and languages). Some of them are even stratified in the same villages and cities. India is a typical part of the Old World in that it faced repeated invasions for millennia, something the US has not. Those cultures are something you have to experience, to understand
yes, you have a cultural war raging on, in the US. but in many way it's a completely different thing. for you Americans, in general, "being German" or "being Scottish" or "being Italian" is a quaint little thing about a steadily vanishing link to "ancient" origins. to the point that visiting Scotland for many Americans of Scottish heritage wishing to cheer for Scottish Independence was a shock for both sides
not comparable at all. to make a very simple example, a Brahmin in a village in Rajastan is not an "Indian with Brahmin heritage" in the same way that the cow he leads to the river is more comparable to a house pet and member of his family then what we know from Western cow farming
your cultural war is about how an American is supposed to be
to simplify, you mix in races from one side and then separate among income levels on the other side, best seen on how housing choices are made, with that (typical? exceptional?) American neighbohood where everybody is "the same". and then have big fights on things the rest of the world does not fight about, or at least not as long as you do
you have "blue districts" and "red districts", and this generates a unique political setting
from this side of the pond, it gives an impression that you fight about The Standardization Of The Human Being (aka proper American)
very interesting but also very confusing for outsiders
Ghordo,
With all due respect, every time you discuss the American culture war going on -- you highlight how little you know about it.
In the USSA right now, the culture war boils down what should society value more. On one side of the argument is both political parties, the media, the Socialists, Communists, "civil rights" movement, etc., etc., and a good 70% of the population. This side believes that it is better for individuals to give up some of their freedom for the benefit of the whole. The other 30% which is a lot of ZH'ers, Tea Party, Libertarians, Fascists, etc., etc., who believe that individual freedom is better, and forcing groups of individuals to give up what is theirs for other's benefit against their will is authoritarianism.
All major conflicts within the American political paradigm can be broken down into this debate. Just like in Germany -- and I imagine very similar to the rest of the world -- high density population centers are more Left of center whereas rural places are more Right of center. Pick any non-former soviet bloc in Europe. Bavaria for example. Munich is normally SPD. Whereas the area surrounding it is Union. Stuttgart in BaWu is die Grüne, whereas the area surrounding it is Union. Frankfurt is SPD/Grüne, whereas the area surrounding it is Union. This dynamic plays out the same in the states. Pick, say, Atlanta for example. Fulton County is about as blue as they get. It is completely surrounded by a sea of Red.
The "culture" war being fought in America is fairly easy to grasp once you look at it through this paradigm.
I find your inconsistencies about the EUR overwhelming, so much so that I have a hard time knowing where to start.
You have said in this thread how different and proud various nations in Europe are. I agree they are. They have, as you so astutly said, different cultures, traditions, value systems, and the like. My problem is that when it comes to the concept of "Europe" -- you lump everyone together as "continental Europeans" vs those waskly Anglos who want to destroy your precious little special snowflake of an "expirment." The problem with this view is two fold --
First the idea of a "united Europe" is fairly new. Infact it only came out into the open within the past decades. Just like the above article notices, the first 100 years or so of the American Republic no one considered themselves "American." One was a citizen of the state of XXXXX. Here in "Europe" you still have "I am German" or "I am French" or "I am Dutch" -- but if you look at the media, and what is being taught in schools it is "we are Europen" (never mind the pluralization of people in the Maastricht) -- attempting to override the national identity with a new identity. You see, when the US was founded, it was overwhelmingly either German or British immigrants, and yet people still clung to the "we are from state so and so" for another 100 years and a civil war. This "we are Americans" actually really got off the ground in 1902 when we fought the Spanish. In "Europe" you have thousands of years of history, which, even if YOU don't think this way -- your leadership does -- which is habitually ignored in the school and re; propaganda in the Media (watch the Tages Schau). See Ghordo, the US started off without any history, and with a fairly homogonous culture, and it still took 130+ years to get where we are today. It was an additional 10 years (1914) for our monetary system to form to the point it has. In Europe you started off with thousands of years of histories and a shotgun of cultures, and the EU and the EMZ is trying to do in a decade or two what took the US over a hundred years to do from a much better "starting" position. Thus, saying "Continential Europeans" think X, Y and Z is just a dishonest argument from you. What you should say is "continential Europeans who think like I do think X, Y and Z." which would be much more correct.
Second, even if you ignore the meat of my point from above, the EU and the EMZ as it stands lacks democratic legitmacy. We all remember Helmut's "I acted like a dictator" remark about the EUR. We in the US fought a war, and voted twice thereafter to become a "United States of America." In the EU -- no such vote has ever taken place. Then, when votes similar to such a thing occur (France, the Netherlands and Ireland) that don't go the EU's way -- the will of the people are ignored. You cannot force a new national identity on a group of people without their consent and expect things to work out, and the population to adopt it. The Soviets tried it. I am sure you are old enough (I only know it from what I read) but Soviets talking about "one Soviet people" etc., etc., and it failed. While you read this and roll your eyes, the anaology to the EU and EMZ is perfect. I imagine the EU is biding their time for enough of the "old people" to die off, and the young indoctrinated kids to become of voting age before they have a series of votes on the creation of a EU super state.
Back to the EUR - As you correctly talked about the differences in various "European" cultures -- but could those differences in culture lead to them shareing a currency not being the best of ideas? Sure. I am not quite sure where you lie on this, or how to respond exactly, but I think you are either taking the position
1) Sure, there are huge differences between cultures in Europe -- but its no problem and they can share a currency. or
2) Sure, there are huge differences between cultures in Europe, and them sharing a currency might not be the best thing -- but the benefits outweigh the detriments.
If you take position 1 you are insane, and have drunk the coolaide. If you take position 2, then I would ask you, why not, with a different structure widdle the various 18 or so currencies still left on the continent down to 3 or 4? You retain many of the benefits while losing many of the detriments. Is the thought that "all Europeans are NOT one people" that scary -- where you cannot accept the economic reality that people in Spain and in Finland spend and save money so differently that sharing a currency probably isn't the greatest of ideas?
That all being said -- the American culture war is interesting to watch, and the north of Europe could do very well for itself (re; population and demographic holes) by catering to the 30% in the US who will feel alienated and persecuted by their own government.
of course I know very little of American culture. I usually don't forget to mention that. thanks for that side of your comment
but I have to note that again you mistake my position with that of the European Federalists. which is, as I often have pointed out, the difference between confederates and unionists/federalists
I have often pointed out that sovereignty is a matter of own military forces and own tax base (in modern times, arguably, national debt and possibly a national bank facility on stand-by for the eventuality of a greater war). I have often pointed out that all the rest can be shared, or not, through voluntary associative clubs. As we do for military defense through the alliance called NATO, and as we do in regulatory matters with the alliance called EU, and we do in monetary matters with the alliance called EuroSystem/ECB. This is not the point of the Federalists, and has very little to do about identity. But it has a lot to do with the current european realities. How things really are vs federalist wish-lists
meanwhile, the "lacking democratic legitimacy" is a federalist talking point (and often as echo a British anti-EU rah rah). for a confederative "clubber" like me, the EU Council would be enough. Our Federalists wish to give more power to the EU Parliament, which again for us "confederalists" should stay restricted in scope, then it's meant to be a lesser daughter of our paramount national parliaments, the true source of legitimacy in our parliamentary systems through direct popular election of them. And so they harp on with that "democratic legitimacy" thing, and we patiently let them harp on, as long as core issues are not touched
imo you make a big mixup of this "european identity" thing, which seems to raise your hairs in remembrance to the mentioned american cultural war, which you make it sound as it was a purely political stance matter, which leads me again to the cliche that perhaps you suffer of this "American culture blindness". to drive the point, no chance, imho, the the Dutch will ever stop being Dutch, for example. but it does not hurt to foster in Dutch schools that the Portuguese, for example, are as much worth as culture as the Dutch or the Greek. That's the "thing" about "being European", and again it's not comparable with about "being American" in any sense at all
about the EUR, I wrote further down. and as often, I point out that any gold standard is the equivalent of sharing a currency, for policy purposes
I'll start backwards and go up --
Second to last paragraph -- This is this Berkeley School of Sociology bullshit. "All cultures are equally valuable and equally worth saving." This is total crap. Cultures, like competetion within the marketplace MUST have competetion to weed out the weak to foster the strong. Have you ever lived on a farm? Seen the miracle of birth? Watch chicks hatch? I have. Nothing is so amazing as watching chicks try and peck through their egg shells. They are so weak and helpless. When I was a child, I wanted nothing more than to help the little chicks with the egg shells and make their lives a little easier. The problem is -- the struggle of escaping their egg is ESSENTIAL to their life. If they get help -- they are far to weak to survive and compete against the chicks who had to struggle to get out of their egg. Those chicks can kick the shit out of the chicks that were helped to escape their eggs. So one has to make a choice -- either help ALL the chicks ever born on the farm to escape their eggs, so they are all equally "weak" or help none of the chicks. Even if you help all of them, except for one -- that one who had to do it on his own will kick the shit out of all the other chicks. You have the choice of either killing the strong one for the weak chicks to survive, or let all the chicks struggle and those that are too weak to escape their egg -- allow them to die. But think about the practicality of it. You either go out of your way to make sure the weak survive at great expense to you and the strong, or you kill the strong chicks so that the weak can survive. Makes literally zero sense. The same goes for cultures -- while we in the "West" like the leftover hippie excrament that "all cultures are equally valuable" -- the Chinese teach their kids they have a superior culture to everyone for X, Y and Z reasons. Not only are cultures NOT equally valuable, but simple ECON tells us the exact opposite. Some cultures are superior, economically to other cultures. Period. This is not open for debate. If it was, all these African nations would be as wealthy and have as high a quality of life as we in the West, or, at the bare minimum would have had the ability to prevent us from raping their continent for the past few hundred years. Same goes for the North South split in Europe. There is a two speed Eurozone because you have coupled economically superior cultures to weaker ones.
Third to last paragraph -- The EU parliment is worthless. I am not taling about the power of the EU Parliment, and you know it. I am talking about the basic existance of this stucture that has the ability to MAKE LAW. No one voted for this, and came out of a series of treaties that have been specifically constructed to circumvent the democratic process.
I realize you are a Confederate. If we could have a logical alignment of European Nations based upon monetary culture and not upon Geography (e.g., herp derp these countries are kinda close to one another -- they can share a currency right!?) I would be a confederate with you. I would love to see a Northern European Confederation, a Slavic Confederation and a Southern European Confederation. It would make a helluva lot more sense than what we have now. Just many of your talking points right now are the same points the people who are now the EU Federalists. In the English language we have a saying "Give them an inch and they take a mile." At this point in time, most people who support the EU as it currently stands -- fall into this category, including you.
I don't care about Berkeley. I anyway suspect that when Berkeley talks about cultures, it has no clue, as much as I - I'm sorry - suspect that all Americans talk about a completely different thing when they talk about culture or cultures
the Portuguese did dominate the world together with the Spaniards. this kind of things change, and China is rising while America looks doubtful about itself. so what? cultures change, adapt, etc. You are reacting to the word culture as if it was a red flag for a bull. Are we having special laws like "affermative action" towards Portuguese or Greeks, here? no. so again, so what? again I use a word that is loaded, in your cultural context, and is used in a way different discussion, here
meanwhile, you act as if you were paying for something you don't want. how much? Did you ever calculate that? next time, let's talk... numbers
"no one voted for..." - this argument makes me think you have not understood the concept of parliamentarism. of course we vote. representatives for a parliament. a national one, each. you did notice that we also have ample choice of political parties, didn't you? and usually no-one really wins, and it's usually coalitions? and no, parliament makes laws. we don't want Common Law. we see it as freakingly dangerous and giving way too much power in the hands of courts, which should not make law, only judge according to it. we also find elections of judges a terribly dangerous thing, and we even consider juries and grand juries a very dangerous thing. (and we also made very bad experiences with referenda, but this is a way more complicated point) surely you are living long enough here to realize this very european continental stance
and so, if you want to split the clubs, you have to argue politically about it. but you still have to understand our political (sigh, again that word) culture, which again is different, first
my argument is still that size is paramount, both for the regulatory club as for the currency one. see the US, see China. what do you offer? why should I change my stance?
Again, I'll start backwards.
Last paragraph -- quantity (population size) is not superior to the quality (correct alignment of currency bloc). If size is your only concern, why not just invite the entirety of "Europe". Shoot, bring Africa along while your at it. There is another 1 billion there, plus the 500,000,000 in "Europe" (because Serbia and Finland could share a currency no problem). Why? Because it makes no sense? Why does it make no sense? The peoples are far too different. Surely you can see this. Why can't Germany and Rwanda share a currency? I mean, if size is the only concern? Make the currency work correctly -- not just make it as large as possible. Besides, the EMZ could break up now, and wipe out both the USD and the Wuan in the process. No need to worry about big currencies. Get rid of the EUR and wipe out the rest of the world with it. Seems like a good idea to me.
I want to split up the club because it makes financial and economic sense. You have the status quo and the propaganda machine on your side to help the sheeple regurgitate talking points, I have NUMBERS on my side.
I perfectly understand how parliamentarism works. I also perfectly undershow how corruption works, and how politicians are the scum of the earth, who will sell the entire world for 30 pieces of silver/fiat.
I'd love to talk numbers. You start.
Hi, my name is Target2, have you met me, or my three cousins, EFSF, ESM and OMT?
nah, Africa is now full of Chinese and Russian interests. besides, we call all our clubs european this-and-that, don't we? I would not mind embracing the East, at this point. How about... Russia? ;-)
actually several African countries already use currencies that are tied to the EUR, mainly because the Banque of France manages them
"Besides, the EMZ could break up now, and wipe out both the USD and the Wuan in the process"
ehm... no. it would reinforce them. both of them. the end result would be that the BuBa and it's brethens would have to buy boatloads of USDs (and later Yuan). in the medium term, it would be a total victory of King Dollar, in the long term a total victory of the Yuan. only my opinion, but I feel it's based on historic precedent
I'll take the "You have the status quo and the propaganda machine on your side to help the sheeple regurgitate talking points..." as meaning that I represent the moderate, centrist position taken in the eurozone ;-)
T2 is misunderstood, EFSF and ESM are paper tigers and OMT is a threat. I counter with the recent (last 18 months) decrease of the ECB's balance sheet
Again, backwards --
It doesn't matter if they are paper tigers and the OMT is a threat -- they were designed for the benefit of ClubMED at the expense of the Northern European countries.
Given that the media and thus the sheeple gurgle what Der Spiegel tells them -- and given the media machine echo Barroso, HvR, Draghi, et al., who are Federalists, I would venture to say that the "restrained European Confederation" approach you say you advocate for is not represented in the media.
Ehm ... no.
If the EMZ broke up, and BNP, Soc. Gen., CB and DB went bankrupt, it would wipe out the Big 5 in the USSA, which would wipe out the USD.
So I'll take the point for the superior culture argument.
"...which would wipe out the USD"
Lehman... didn't. imho you severely underestimate the strenght and resilience of a global reserve currency, as long as it holds that place
"It doesn't matter if they are paper tigers and the OMT is a threat -- they were designed for the benefit of ClubMED at the expense of the Northern European countries."
expense? what expense, exactly? a paper tiger costs... nothing. as much as giving the impression of "printing"
"...given the media machine echo Barroso, HvR, Draghi, et al., who are Federalists, I would venture to say that the "restrained European Confederation" approach you say you advocate for is not represented in the media."
I'm not sure I understand you. But I hope you did not miss the little fact of all the federalists moaning that "Project EUR" costs "Project EU" valuable resources
ONE SENATOR'S VOTE in the US Senate made English the legal language over that of German at the birth of the United States in 1789
If that one Senator had voted for the legal language to be German then we'd be writing in German here on these pages today.
Our "friendship" with England did not take root until the early 20th Century. Before the Great War, England was the enemy.
There were even United States plans for an English-American War into the very late 1920s..
Ask the older Canadians about defending their vast border with the US during that time.
"The other 30% which is a lot of ZH'ers, Tea Party, Libertarians, Fascists, etc., etc., who believe that individual freedom is better, and forcing groups of individuals to give up what is theirs for other's benefit against their will is authoritarianism."
I'm sorry, but Fascists are authoritarians and against "too much individualism", which includes individual freedom
ORI, without going in the merit of your views on borders... a little voice tells me that if India would face a huge alien invasion, not necessarily a military one, a couple of hundred million Chinese settling in Little Chinas everywhere on the Subcontinent...
... a certain former Indian Navy officer might slowly slightly revise his position ;-)
btw, I love conspiracy theories. And I adore to point out where they leak, if they do so
Ghordius, you are missing the trendline. While Italy may have been fighting for nationalism in 1871, by 2013 it is pretty much burned out, enough so they let Goldman Sachs kick out their elected leader Berlusconi with nary a whimper, at the whim of not even the "leaders in the EU", but rather the real leaders in the City or in NYC.
I'd say using nationalism as the argument that there wasn't a conspiracy literally doesn't stand the test of time.
We are at the next level from what happened in "1871" - NAFTA, the EU, even the SCO point to economic sovereignty being given up willingly to the larger group, just as the feudal states gave up their economic sovereignty to the "nation states" in Germany, Italy, and the US 150 years ago...
In regards to the US Civil War of 1861 - 1865, I always felt it a bit odd how many felt that it was about Slavery, when the Emancipation Proclamation, which was an Execute Order, came out in 1863, two years into the war, and excluded areas that were under Union Army control........
Awe fuck you.
-- A Southerner
Haus, so in an American context you are a Southerner, while in your new european context you are a Northerner? From my perspective - which I admit is a bit special - it's hilarious. can it be that you regard the european South as something like... Mexico?
Yes, you are 100% correct.
What ever happened to your "the US and the European System are completely different and comparing them is foolish" stick?
I would say that the Rust Belt in the USSA is very similar, economically to ClubMed.
Greece is like Mexico -- ClubMed is moderatly better, but asserting they are more similar to the North, is, which I admit is a bit speical -- I find hilarious.
wait a moment. my argument that the two systems are not comparable is not in conflict with my argument that you make too much of a Northern/Southern devide in europe
you identify yourself as a Southerner (American). fine, nothing I can comment on, way outside of my horizon
but in the european context, you suddently raise a Northerner/Germanic flag which is strongly out of the cultural norm for your host country. also fine, everybody is entitled to have their own political positions
but then you moan about the reception, among average Germans, of your political stance. and that's the point where I sometimes try to chide you and guide you around the cultural and political aspects of this reception
the general bias and cliche we Europeans have about Americans is that they are, in general, "culture blind" and "race focused". the general bias and cliche that Americans have about Europeans is that we treat culture as if it was race, the fully opposite
both are biases and cliches, and yet whenever we two have a conversation, we both fall into them
treat Spaniards and Greeks as if they were "our negros" or "our latinos" as much as you want, but be aware of how you are seen by that, in our context
in our context, we ask for respect for different things. in our eyes, Spaniards or Greeks are proud nations, with their own cultures, their own states, their own languages and traditions. nothing I could or would even want to change
in our context, we ask for respect for different things. in our eyes, Spaniards or Greeks are proud nations, with their own cultures, their own states, their own languages, currencies and traditions. nothing I could or would even want to change
fixed that for you -- surely monetary cultures and traditions are valueable and worth savings, correct?
among our traditions, you find way more then the "one state, one currency, next state, other currency"
gold ducats or silver Maria-Theresia Thalers or Spanish Dubloons come to mind. or the Latin Monetary Union. or even Bretton Woods. in Europe, we allow private currency schemes, btw. we don't have a tradition of forcing a currency the way Uncle Sam has, lately. meanwhile, we do have a very complex history of national banks tradition that still ives on, then they are only confederated into the ECB, in the eurozone. and we have a long tradition of holding foreign currencies as a matter of course, and this includes gold
your focus on national currencies dedicated to national goals... with or without gold backing? do you realize that a gold-backed currency is the opposite? gold is the ultimate non-national currency. a gold-backed currency stops being a national currency in it's monetary policy options
take the criticism of the ECB from Marine Le Pen's French National Front
on one side, "ultraliberal" (Google-translated into libertarian) no deficit spending demands. balanced budgets. Yes, Austrian School
on th other side, a call to sovereign national interests, with Keynesian deficit spending whenever national needs require them. Yes, Keynesian
now, which side do you think is more "gold-friendly"? which side do you prefer, when it comes to monetary and fiscal policies?
so no, (pardon the rehash of points, I am typing as it comes) I see the EUR as a very typical european thing, fully in line with our european monetary traditions. it's not the first of such things, and might not be the last one, either
we did a similar thing when we had nearly all of our currencies backed by gold - see the history of the German Reichsbank and the French National Bank, for example. and we might go back to gold backing, if China wins the "gold war"
we have also a tradition of standardizing monetary instruments, as seen in the Latin Monetary Union. the EU is also a big "standardizing" machinery, in this case of regulatory matters. fully in line with other things like the Metric System
We have a tradition of allowing private currencies, something I understand is forbidden in the US, or at least strongly discouraged
We have also a tradition of trade and holding various currencies, an utilitarian, pragmatic attitude versus currencies. including gold
As I tried to explain, the EUR is chiefly a response to a monetary world shaped by the USD and the rising Yuan, and the consequent challenges
Lastly, our latest, typically european approach is focused on balanced national budgets and a confederated bundle of national currencies that is meant to give us price stability, particularly during currency wars. And we had lots of currency wars, a tradition we would like to discontinue, as we lastly tried with the Currency Grid, the precursor project of the EUR
How can you say the ECB wants price stability?
Any currency is simply a claim on labor. Thus, if one works for an hour and gets 8,50€ and then buys a Kasten of Oettinger with it -- this person has, essentially worked for an hour for a 24 pack of beer. It just went through this paper thing which is a claim on his 1 hour of labor in exchange for the beer. If in a year he gets paid 9,00€ for the hour, and the Kasten costs 9,00€ -- even though the price went up the price (or the claim on the worker's labor) stayed the same.
However, Draghi openly says he wants inflation of 2%, but without the subsequent increase in wages by the same amount -- he doesn't have price stability, but price instability as it takes more labor to buy the same kasten of beer.
See, the ECB can control (to an extent) the interest rate, but it cannot control wages -- which are a function more of law than of monetary policy. The ECB wants inflation, as Draghi says openly. He cannot control wages. Thus, his discussion about inflation is actually him not wanting price stability, but price inflation, while wages are stagnating in the north and plummeting in the south. Price instability. Price being labor, which is relevative.
it's completely irrelevant what the ECB wants. that's their only task. now, your view of currency as a claim on labour... debatable. But it's also irrelevant
one hour work one box of beer, fine. the point of price stability is that if I save the equivalent in currency this year, next year I get one hour of work or one box of beer, too, or not too much less then that
what Draghi openly says is also irrelevant. his job is to say whatever that collective monstrosity that wants to speculate on everything wants to hear
go and look how high the speculative positions on a further strenghtening of the USD are vs the EUR... again
and then have a look at prices in Russia, or in Ukraine. we are in a damn currency war, remember? coupled with a price war in oil... again. not to mention commodities, gold, etc. etc.
I don't have to point out that FX matters, do I? the EURUSD is not irrelevant. our economies are way more dependent on trade then the US's, and a lot of our trade is still in USD, even with non-US partners
(by your example with Oettinger you don't mean to imply you are experiencing a personal price inflation of 5% per year, do you?)
We are arguing semantics here.
Yes we are in a currency war. Race to the bottom. What happens when one of the major currencies hits the bottom? What happens when the YEN hits 150 to 1? 200? Eventually one of them breaks and then all hell breaks lose.
FX is important, definitely.
Oettinger for "crap" beer isn't that bad when compared to Keystone Ice or Natural Ice.
I was going to edit my comment by adding: the finest point of price stability is that small (and medium) producers like me don't have to redo their price calculation every month or even week. because it hurts us, and makes us more likely to go out of business. we have to hit small margins and stay competitive
trade. you look at currencies, I look at trade. the difference between looking at the world with the eyes of a producer and doing it with the eyes of the financial world
So wait --
under the DMark there was pretty good price stability in Germany. Shit was all over the place in ClubMED. Are you telling me the purpose of the EUR is to ensure price stability in ClubMED?
I just want to make sure I am notreading more into your comment than what you meant before I start day drinking now.
are you sure about that point? first, London and NY frequently betted on the FX crosses involved with the DEM. BuBa had constantly to get support from the French and Italian national banks
that was the whole reason of why the BuBa was very happy about the Currency Grid, and then the EUR. now imagine the current speculative positions... remember Soros and the British Pound?
enjoy your drinking, I have to go. wish you a happy Thankgiving
Thanks bud! Enjoy your evening.
Thanks bud! Enjoy your evening.
South Carolina had left the Union or the United States. Union forces in other states were withdrawn to territory still a part of the Union. Lincoln refused to allow the Union military in Charleston, S.C. to be evacuated and withdrawn. The firing on Union military at Ft. Sumpter was a effort to force these foreign troops to leave the state which no longer was a part of the Union. Lincoln planned for the actions to instigate a war. If the Union forces at Charleston had been withdrawn as was done at New Orleans there would have been no engagement.
Another little factoid about Lincoln's regard for freeing slaves: The Emancipation Proclamation only applied to the Confederate States, territory which was not a part of the Union. Lincoln knew he did not have the authority or power as President to actually free slaves. The slaves in the remaining Union states continued to be slaves.
Fuk all gubmint
People celebrate food and football and shopping on Thanksgiving - bread and circuses and shiny stuff to divert the population from the unending wars of the Military Industrial Complex. The best serfs are those who are unaware they are serfs - just keep buying stuff to get you deeper into debt.
No major media would dare carry Paul Craig Roberts' comments on Thanksgiving in the land of the free.
My wife and I received a free Black Friday gift from the Armed Forces Pharmacy today- 65mg tablets of potassium iodide (with instructions in 8 languages instead of the usual 3).
Since I live within 50km of the Gösgen NPP it would have happened anyway before the expiration date of the previous batch, but the date is sadly ironic for a Virginian.
Lets take this story back to 1614.
Exploring Thanksgiving History in Massachusetts - NYTimes.com
Albeit I'm no fan of the NYT politcal and financial sections, they do some decent research with respect to ancient history.
See see see....
Another piece of redacted history by the NYT. The Squantos were captured and taken back to Europe and sold as slaves and when they returned, helped the pilgrims communicate with their new neighbors in the development because they didn't speak in-jun and had problems with the association CC&R.
Another NYT White Man's Guilt Trip
lol Knuks. It's funny how history redacts Squanto being a slave in England.
Yeah...
Here's a reference in Mass history about him.
http://historyofmassachusetts.org/squanto-the-former-slave/
No I didn't read the whole thing because right at the outset they all but say nobody has a clue and the original "documentation" didn't mention his name , anyhow. Hint hint hint
Plus, if the dude was enslaved, I have troubles with him turning out to be a good natured chap that would have helped the invaders live long and prosper in his lands. Begs a bit of the old French philosophy of Rousseau's that politics and morality should not be separated and the state is all omnipotent to mold the individual to goodness.... uh huh....
The Noble Savage (rubbish)
I mean that sorta begs the Progressive crap of reeducating and training the serial killers and rapists while in jail so that they become productive recidivistic members of society, unlike normal human behavior like of terrorists let loose from Gitmo deciding to Strike Back at the Empire.
Ah, prolly just my black Progressive Kumbaya Everything is Fucking Awesome weariness showing through these days
Being sentenced to death works wonders for recidivism Knuks... ;-)
Look at the Guantanamo Bay debacle. These numbers are from Jane Fonda's neck of the woods.
Opinion: How big a terror risk are former Guantanamo prisoners? - CNN.com
it's all over now we've pulled hanoi jane out of the woodwork !!!!
I figured most of your Ilk wouldn't know who Ted Turner is, since he doesn't sign your EBT cards.
There are so many thigs wrong with your reply I'm not even going to point out... and who in thier right mind defends hanoi jane for anything and ted turner the eugenics loving piece of shit is suited for you ...go back to the cartoon news network ... by the way didn't you get enuf of your ass handed to you earlier on another thread ...guess not
In your 3 weeks of wisdom please inform the Forum?
Are you offended by the EBT card comment, or are you unaware of the 30+% recidivism rate for Guantanamo releases?
neither asshole you attacked me and for what oh yeah making a joke about hanoi fucking jane "3 weeks of wisdom" oh so only someone who posts thier "opinion" or regurgitated info are wise ... don't bother answering that you already dug a hole you can't get out of. I've owned my own biz for 35 years providing a tangible service to others via honest labor... But I wouldn't expect you to understand that
Let me tell you something you little prick. First of all you're full of shit, and I can tell you are.
Owned a business for 35 years? Are you kidding me ?
You wouldn't know HONEST labor if it hit you squarely in the face!
I'm 48 years old and I've owned many businesses in my time. Go peddle your trinkets somewhere else.
Where have you been for the last 4-5 years?
I didn't attack you? You jumped on the bandwagon and attacked me.
it's all over now we've pulled hanoi jane out of the woodwork !!!! WTF?
If you want to play " Fight Club" expect to get punched back BITCH!
YC, I would miss you if you were gone. I suspect it is the vicarious sense of what hemorrhoids are like without actually having them, but you do occasionally have some great insights. Doesn't look like this is one of those days, though.
Oh, fuck 'em, Yen
Gots way too many of these newly hatched reptilian trollobites.
Gotta ignore them.
Arguing with 'em's like pissing into the wind.
...'cause you sound almost as pissed off as my ex girlfriend.
I find you endearing. I'm african american, from South Africa. And I know that there is no Kantian moral imperative or Rousseauean social contract. I just want to collapse the wave function here, in a schrodingerian sense.
You're fucking brilliant.
I prefer Arthur Schopenhauer.
By the way, don't listen to these assholes.
They protest too much.
They alway redact the part about how we cooperated with our native friends and brought the wonderful medicinal qualities of tobacco to the world.
Dat shiot stops eboler cold!
Jamestown was even more fun:
http://www.loc.gov/teachers/classroommaterials/presentationsandactivitie...
How far down the 10yr yield tomorrow you guys?
The tbond shorts seem to be ripe.
Lincoln, upon awakening from a hangover: "I freed the what?"
do you really awaken from a hangover?
Point well made
The sessinpo junkster is on the loose Tyler.
Same can be said of you YC. I tried to respect you but having a cordial discussion with you is useless as others can see and have tried. You even post an attack and have nothing to say about the actual thread!
If you can't handle it, I suggest you leave. It will be no loss. Anyway, getting back to the thread, everything is commercialized. History is lost. We can only live in the now and that is with friends and family. Here is wishing the best to ZHs and that even includes you YC.
You're completely deluded. I made a factual observation, and you " popped off".
You can try and justify your comment any way You'ld like.
I then presented "factual " evidence of how the officer in question could have avoided the situation.
You still chose to ignore the facts.
I suggest you look deeply inside of yourself, and ask why you're so un~receptive of THE facts.
Don't let the door hit ya on the way out...
Take your spin somewhere else Junior. I've obviously struck a chord. Hopefully you'll think twice before you make uneducated comments in the future.
No you are deluded. I stated one thing.
Wilson had no taser - FACT. I said nothing else in that post.
You replied with a pure attack on me calling me retarded and an idiot.
It is all there for anyone to see. Get lost loser
Here's where you're completely deluded.
Me:
Any seasoned cop worth his salt, would have tazed that fat bastard and cuffed him. Don't get me wrong, he tossed the dice and crapped out.
sessinpo: Wilson did not have a taser. Thus your post craps out.
I'm not sure what planet you reside on? That was a smart assed comment in my book. I was simply stating the situation could have possibly been avoided, and you chose to capitalize on the letter NOT spirit of the comment.
You knew full well I was showing an alternate possibilty had the officer in question whom is 6'- 3" carried a tazer.
You brought up an interesting axiom. He probably should have had a rifle in the car. He could have dealt with the situation from a safer distance.
Goooodgye YC. I am have parents nieces, nephews, and siblings to share time with. I wish you the best, but I feel you are lost.
I'm done with you and with the down arrows you are getting, probably others can see you for what you are. I'll let you figure out what that is.
But if you post crap, I'll be on you and if you can't take it. Tough. I did the same for Bonestar (fonestar) and look where that got him. BTW, Wilson was about 6'4" so you even got that wrong. But I don't care if a midget is attacking me. I'll shoot the bastard to defend my life.
Facts are facts, your opinion is just that, an opinion. Maybe you'll figure that out someday.
Cheerio Zhs.
I figured you for one of those English pedofiles. Cheerio .
Tell David Cameron he's a village idiot for me.
Happy Thanksgiving Yen. You're one of the last commenters on ZH worth reading.
I also enjoy your wisdom Ralph. Thanks for the kind comment.
Happy Thanksgiving to you as well my friend.
Happy Thanksgiving to you as well YC. You manage to get yourself into fight club all of the time don't you? I like it.
How in the world did you drag Fonestar in to the mix here? I do not recall Yen ever saying too much about bitcoin.
Indians in the Amazon and Botocudos in the Midwest of Brazil loved baking a European.
He said this in another post.
Understand how you want.
hehe.
After reading James McPhersons 'Battle Cry of Freedom' (one of the most widely revered Civil War history books ever) ...all 942 pages of it... the only question I had was, "Why didnt they just let the South secede?"
Same reason they leave no country alone.
To rule them and bleed them in every way.
There is much to celebrate!
- Unemployment is below 23%.
- East Coast will have a lot of water when the snow melts.
-Costa West is sublime to brown body.
- Your actions are above the moon.
- There is another fun better than in Florida, Fergson Holiday radicals.
You can choose to warm and bright welcome to new hermanos in the south of the country.
hehe.
Why didn't they let the South secede?
Patrick Henry, after reading the new Constitution, which was to replace the Articles of Confederation, said of it,
"This government [under the Constitution] cannot last. It will not last a century. We can only get rid of its oppression by a most violent and bloody struggle."
He was referring the the phrase "We the People," at the top of the Constitution. The sly masonic brethren, by saying "people" instead of "states", in one word destroyed State's Rights and instituted a tyranny, which the South in vain attempted to shake off, by a "most violent and bloody struggle."
Check out the entire article on Patrick Henry.
http://www.rense.com/general79/patri.htm
Good read, read the whole thing
Patrick Henry also switched sides and became a Federalist puke supporting Adams. What a shame, going from true revolutionary to true statist.
Yep, those are the a) illeterate, and/or b) lazy, and or c) disengenuous, and/or d) antithetical "so-called" "historians" who have no clue and are so lazy/illeterate/whatever that they can't find Bradford's diary.
- Ned
{and, well, Happy Thanksgiving day to all y'all. I hope that you and yours are doing well and despite all of what is going on will continue to do well and will prosper in the next year.}
If you call celebrating ...stuffing thier fat mouths full of gmo's steroid turkey and swilling booze while screaming at a bunch of morons runinng back and forth with alittle brown piece of pigskin ... all in the name of small pox rape and mass murder while giving thanks to the iphuck and twatter ....well then lets give thanks that thats the worst thier doing at the moment.. oh and forgot that assinine parade all besmirched by the protestors good ole murikka
I celebrated two days of picking up/ cleaning the house, made four pumpkin pies from my own pumpkin, and enjoyed an excuse to drink early and often.
Celebration was capped off when the last leftover managed to fit in the fridge.
I up-voted because sometimes it really is just about enjoying family and friends and not about a huge overhead of guilt and second guessing.
I was too full of turkey to have any guilt.
I also don't have any guilt when I'm hungry too.
Perpetual guilt is the reverse side of the false coin of perpetual victim-hood.
Might as well believe pigs can fly.
Moral relativism, post-modernism, this is what you have reaped. Fools who know nothing and freely confess it.
Ah, more PC Revisionism of History.
White Europeans always bad. Everyone else a victim or did it first.
Thanksgiving, in Massachussetts Bay Colony, was started and/or carried on because the winters of the early 17th C were especially brutal. It was cold and snowed a great deal and summers were short and winters long and brutal 1610-1660.
The local natives realised that they were not going to survive this weather, as their oral tradition had no record of it ever being that cold. The locals realisd that they, the Natives, had knowledge of some crops but they also recognised that the Settlers had other, additional knowledge. The Settlers realised that they, the Settlers, could benefit from this exchange as well.
Thus the meal is a mix of Native and Settler foods, because eating separately they would both die, but together they had enough nutrition to last the winter.
It was never a huge conocopia, it was a diverse table of different foodstuffs that allowed the local and newcomers to survive based upon diverse nutrition.
===========================================
Settling NA was a 1 in 7 chance. In North Carolina they abandoned the settlement and mixed with local populations. In Virginia it failed twice. In California it ebbed and flowed. In Florida the same. The Vikings tried and died in both ''Greenland'' and Nova Scotia.
One was months from resupply, beyond the suvivalbility time frame of humans in distress. Thus it was make it or die trying.
Paul C Roberts ask yourself why you know so much about Thanksgiving being as you describe but you do not have at your mental fingertips the historical facts that would show that every nation and culture was founded in more or less the same fashion. To pick on, deride, and criticise USA traditions when every.other.country has tradtions based upon the same is a bias fomenting whose agenda and to what end?
Massasoit kept the Plymouth settlers alive for one simple reason.
To use them in an alliance to war with the neighboring Narragansett tribe that were encroaching on their hunting grounds.
It worked.
The Mass. Bay Colony's first paying job was as mercenaries.
I guess subsequent events proved that the Noble Savages were susceptible to short term gain thinking while ignoring the longer term effects of that decision.
A colonial version of arming al Qaida rebels.
Incorrect, we saw it as thievery and aggression.
Were it not for the fact that The South used The Peace Conference as an excuse to seize the Federal property on its soil, and then refuse to compensate The North, and then forcably prevent Northern forces from going to said property and taking what they owned, you would be correct.
Lincoln had to hide in the Willard Hotel due to multiple death threats and refused to meet with the CSA because it was likely that someone in the room either was making the threats, supported the threats, or would pull a gun on Lincoln himself.
If I won't sell you my half of the partnership, you do not pull a gun on me and take it by force, refuse to compensate me, and then shoot at me when I attempt to recover what is mine.
Lincoln also wanted to ensure the people who at the time did not have a voice in politics (like slaves and landless entertainers and intellectuals, who he contended were citizens), would have a chance to vote on whether their respective states should leave the union.
Yeah the US did plenty of horrible things to the Indians/Native Americans and the Union generals committed pretty of civilian atrocities during the Civil War and afterwards in Reconstruction. History is built on skulls and anyone who tells you different is selling you something.
Point is that it is nice to have a day where family and friends get together to celebrate over a meal and hopefully are legimately thankful for the things we do have which is still a lot more than most other Americans. Most Americans when polled too are against shopping on Thanksgiving in the polls I have seen BTY.
If you spend every single day waking up and focusing on all of the horrible shit civilization does and we used to do, you would never get on with anything. The hypercriticism of Americans is really tiresome especially given how well off most Americans relatively are compared to other people.
Met a Brazilian plastic surgeon 2 weeks ago in NYC at a healthcar event. Used to specialize in general surgery but went back and got specialized in plastic reconstruction especially on ear/finger reconstruction. Asked him why he would possibly do this and it was because of the booming practice of kidnappers to chop off one or both ears as 'proof of concept' that a relative/loved-one had been kidnapped and was being held for ransom. He is so busy he is doing 3-4 of these a week. Just a little perspective and especially true if you have been to Rio de Janiero or Sao Paulo.
I am not sure that most people are celebrating on Thanksgiving. I think they are mostly just eating and drinking.
In fact, too often these days, we simply pay lip service to the past in order to drink and eat.
Perhaps a day of fasting might be more appropriate for the day.
A day of fasting, an excellent suggestion.
A great take on Thanksgiving, for those thusly inclined...
http://www.manataka.org/page269.html
I need to come clean. I do have a history with Native Americans before the casinos started. I was lucky enough to have and old guy who happened happened to be Ojibwe teach my how to hunt and fish. I did not have a dad because he died when I was very young. I thought it was a pretty good deal that I could hang out with the old school men. You know, the guys that did not know their own birth dates? I was lucky in a way. Those old men tought me to be an asshole. I think we have accepted fact.
What is interesting is that one of those old timer Natives told that one day I will see something that which I have to figure out the meaning of. Well, it has been happening for some time now. I have a white wolf that only likes to appear when I am alone in the woods on my property in Wisconsin. I know that there are wolves around but this one likes to sneak up on me and that dog is huge. It is like a game for him but he always comes alone, stares me in the eye for a few seconds and then he is gone. I am very good at hearing animals approach but has snuck up on me three times without me knowing. He is telling me that is better than me. There is a tremendous amount of symbolism in Native American culture that deals with what a white wolf means.
We also have a white deer.(albino) That deer everyone has seen. This also has cultural meaning. That wolf will only to deal with me. It never messes with me but it never a chance to mess with it. If you fell like it take a look on having a white wolf and a white deer on your property. Not that beleive it all but it is a good sign.
I celebrate having good friends and telling some stories on Thanksgiving.
America has not been just bad. You guys were awesome on the beaches of Normandy, just like the Russians were awesome in Stalingrad.
I suspect the reason why amerikens invaded Normandy was they knew the russian army was going to roll over the whole Europe to wipe out nazists and amerikens just wanted not to give up military control over at least some part of Europe - Eastern Germany and Berlin was a prime example of that.
The US Army never ever goes somewhere just due to some 'good' intentions. During the WWII the GB and US expected the Germans to defeat the Russians, but when that great plan failed, they had to do something - Normandy event was born. Had the germans defeated russia on its soil, US soldiers would have never ever step on European soil.
Calling US soldiers "great" is btw a bad joke. Look at millions of dead people in Iraq, Afghanistan, Lybia, Syria and so on.
do tell, what piece of excrement did you crawl out from under?
Oh, a good argument!
Look here at your brave soldiers in Vietnam, you see? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Lai_Massacre
Are you a troll? Anyway Everyone know that FDR was a socialist and admired the Soviets. He went to war to help Stalin, and he would have let England burn, as Stalin was Hitler's ally until he invaded Russia
I hear our drone Corps is kick-ass as well. Droppin' death right after determining with 100% accuracy who the bad guys are.
you are clearly a useless piece of garbage
I CELEBRATE BY URINATING ON LIBERALS AND EUROPEANS
SOrry I can be as cynical as many ZHers, but I am not buying this crap at face value. Roberts has been anti-American and anti-US for some time now, and the source needs to be considered.
This is the first I have ever heard Thanksgiving with a political undercurrent depicted like this. Hell, if the retailers had their way, they have so marginalized Thanksgiving with the Black Friday advertisiting they would like to do away with the Thanksgicving holiday altogether. I have never seen one single reference in all my years politicizing Thanksgiving, and while ROberts may have some historical references, once more I come back to the source and his negative orientiation when considering whether this is worth any of the points made. It isn't.
Thought something similar. Maybe I'm being sentimental about Thanksgiving - but that's OK. I'm fully aware of how commercialized the holidays have become, but at some point one has to find happiness in life and focusing on negativity at every turn, every day, is really counterproductive. Actually, I read about every post on ZH...have for a couple years now...I call it my doom and gloom time.
So the world sucks, got it. Vote with your wallet, buy local, garden, hunt, store savings in metals, starve the beast whenever possible, and build positive relationships.
No shit.
Fuck all this sentimentality about Thanksgiving. Be thankful for what you have, or not.
Eat and enjoy family and friends.
Does anyone get all shitty about Valentines Day?
Embrace your mythology and enjoy it.
Does anyone think the Romans pondered the existence of Saturn when they got a chance to bone the neighbors wife during a Saturnalia?
In view of our history of violence against other people and our animals and our land, God, if indeed he takes the time to listen to our incessant whining and petitioning, I imagine, is surely giving us another kind of bird. At best.
The govenor William Bradford kept an f' journal. So, Thanksgiving isn't a d' mystery. They tried f' communism the first year and everyone starved and a lot of people died. Next year they tried capitalism and there was so much food they invited the Indians.
I think even the term "war of northern aggression" garbage. It should be "war to prevent southern independence". And that way no one can pretend that anything about the United States is voluntary
I would be more sympathetic to the southern states cause if it was not for one little thing, slavery. As a British general once asked during the Revolutionary War, "why do the greatest cries for freedom come from the owners of slaves."
And before anyone can comment, yes the North went to war to preserve the Union, but the south succeeded from the Union over economic reasons, including the economic benefit of slavery. Then add the Southern war of aggression, or at least it providing most of the troops and motivation to wage war on Mexico.
You should read the letters from my ancestors who wrote after the war about how glad they were to not have to try to civilize savages any longer. Slavery would have ended on it's own. Especially after the Industrial Revolution. Many planters who did not own slaves because of moral or religious reasons were successful during the slavery era.
Sure it would have eventually, just like it did in Saudi Arabia in 1962, but it does not excuse fighting to help preserve it. Even when confronted with the annihilation of their country, the south could not abandon slavery. Civilize? So you mean they bought people for the slaves own benefit? If that is what you call civilization, I would rather be a savage. But your right most Southerners did not benefit from slavery and called it ""a rich man's war and a poor man's fight."but they still fought for the slave holders, which by the way were extremely successful.
Fewer than 2 % owned slaves in the south. But let's gloss over Lincoln's tyrannical authoritarian despotism. The original senator from Illinois who was a power hungry asshole.
That slavery narrative is a funny one. I guess Britain didn't have slaves? Why is it that the first people to point to others distasteful activities are the most guilty of it themselves?
The British still repress countries all over the world. I guess when you call it colonialism it sounds better than slavery.? Semantics the British are the biggest gathering of scum on earth. To include the house of leeches sorry I mean Windsor you know the biggest single owner of slaves to this day.
It sounds noble when you call someone a subject of the crown what is a subject? A debt slave subject to the crowns bidding. That's slavery
Who cares about American tradition, a country home to 4% of the world population ? The rest of the world doesn't even care about Chinese and Indian holidays. Sad but American cultural and other influence in the world is expected to decline. No privileges more for the US.
Fuck India and china
I got some wagon burners on my in-law side of the family and they eat the turkey with as much gusto as everyone else.
Thanksgiving gives me a chance to drag out my moth-eaten Tonto jokes.
I was thanking God for blessing me with health, safety, a warm place to sleep, a loving family, health, a job, food, water, and His perfect plan of salvation. There is so much to be thankful for.
Amen
Wow, righteous indignation over something you can't do anything about. How Leftist.