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Is This The Mystery Crude Oil Liquidator? The "God Of Crude Oil Trading" Taps Out

Tyler Durden's picture




 

Two months ago, when the first tremors in the crude market appeared, we wondered, jokingly, if one of the biggest crude bulls  -the man known as the "god of oil trading -  Phibro's (and formerly Citi's uber-well paid trader) Andy Hall was puking blood yet.

But while we may have been joking, for Andy Hall things were only all too real. So real, in fact, he just lost his job according to Bloomberg.

  • OIL TRADER ANDREW HALL SAID TO LEAVE PHIBRO BY YR-END: SOURCES

So is Hall's unwind the source of what some say is a relentless, rolling liquidation within the commodity space?

What is surprising, is that until September, Hall's Astenbeck wasn't doing too badly as the following letter shows:

 

What is perhaps more ironic, is that Hall actually thought shale would be a dud, and that we are beyond the peak-shale era, which would send crude prices higher. Well, he may have been correct about the fate of shale oil, but not how it would get there, considering he himself would be one of the casualties in the process.

More ironic, the following blurb from Bloomberg: "Andrew John Hall -- known as the God of Crude Oil Trading to some of his peers -- has built his success on a simple creed: Everyone who disagrees with him is wrong.

For most of the past 30 years, that has been a killer strategy. Like a poker player on an endless hot streak, Hall has made billions for the companies for which he’s traded by placing one aggressive bet after another. He was one of the few traders who anticipated both the run-up in and the eventual crash of oil prices in 2008.

 

Hall was so good that he bagged a $98 million payday in 2008, when he ran Citigroup Inc.’s Phibro LLC trading unit, and was up for about $100 million more in 2009.

 

In the end, Bloomberg Markets will report in its October 2014 issue, he couldn’t collect the 2009 payout from Citi because an anti–Wall Street backlash against the bank -- which had just received a $45 billion U.S. government bailout -- led regulators to block it. No such bonuses have awaited Hall of late. He’s racked up losses in two of the past three years.

 

His wager that oil prices would rise and rise has run headlong into an unanticipated energy revolution -- the frenetic push in the U.S. and elsewhere to wring crude out of shale. Shale drilling has boosted U.S. oil output to the highest level in 27 years; it helped the U.S. supply 84 percent of its energy demand last year. Oil prices, far from taking the upward trajectory Hall predicted, have been essentially unchanged since 2011.

 

For the 63-year-old Hall, who has used his wealth to build an extensive modern art collection, this has meant a sobering comedown. Assets under management at his Astenbeck Capital Management LLC hedge-fund firm fell to $3.4 billion in May, down from as much as $4.8 billion in January 2013. Astenbeck, based in Westport, Connecticut, fell 3.8 percent in 2011, posted a 3.4 percent gain in 2012 and slid another 8.3 percent in 2013, according to Astenbeck letters obtained by Bloomberg. This makes some wonder whether Hall has lost his touch.

 

“At one point, Phibro traders were the rulers of the world,” says Carl Larry, a former trader who publishes a newsletter on oil markets. “The best always learn how to adapt. Maybe it’s taking him longer to do that now. Or maybe his time has come.”

The punchline: "Hall, based on comments in his letters to investors, is unfazed by the losses and secure in his view that the price of oil is destined to rise. In those letters, he regularly mocks those who are convinced that a shale boom will mean long-term cheap, abundant energy."

Oops.

As for the $64K question: has he liquidated his long positions yet, or is he yet to liquidate them? Considering the bankruptcy fate of Venezuela may well lie in the answer, we are confident we are not the only ones curious.

 

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Tue, 12/09/2014 - 13:39 | 5533168 Deathrips
Deathrips's picture

Oil under 40

Oil over 40

 

years end poll

Tue, 12/09/2014 - 13:45 | 5533177 TruthInSunshine
TruthInSunshine's picture

OT - (apologies) - but arson is suspected in LA Apartments under construction fire yesterday (Jewish Lightning).

"Arson Eyed in Massive Los Angeles Apartment Blaze"
LOS ANGELES — Dec 9, 2014, 10:33 AM ET
By CHRISTOPHER WEBER Associated Press

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/investigators-arson-la-apartment-fire...

As for oil, good luck trading it or anything else in this TOTALLY FUBAR'D AND DEVOID OF FUNDAMENTALS WORLD THANKS TO ASININE CENTRAL BANK RADICAL MONETARY FRANKENSTEIN-ZATION OF "MARKETS."

Tue, 12/09/2014 - 13:48 | 5533215 CrazyCooter
CrazyCooter's picture

My first blush about that fire was it marked the top in CA RE as someone (with knowledge of the market direction) torched the son of a bitch rather than build it and lose their ass.

Anyone in the oil business for any length of time completely recognizes and expects this boom/bust cycle with price. In fact, I knew a guy who quit his job up here to go south to live with family and get a CDL so he could drive rigs in the Dakotas. I told him it was going to roll over at some point and he better save his cash rather than piss it away ... don't think he got very far.

Regards,

Cooter

Tue, 12/09/2014 - 13:55 | 5533237 jbvtme
jbvtme's picture

who builds industrial housing out of wood these days?

Tue, 12/09/2014 - 14:22 | 5533397 zhandax
zhandax's picture

Talk about irony.  It is a block up from The Department of Building and Safety.

Tue, 12/09/2014 - 15:34 | 5533770 Boxed Merlot
Boxed Merlot's picture

a block up from The Department of Building and Safety...

 

and across the street from the fire house.  These factors were most likely taken into account in providing extraordinarily reasonable construction insurance rates.  Double plus good.

Wed, 12/10/2014 - 17:22 | 5535039 MalteseFalcon
MalteseFalcon's picture

I'll just bet this guy believed in and promoted the concept of Peak Oil.  It gave him and his fellow traders a good 40 year run and then ..... WHAMO BLAMO RIGHT UP THE POOP CHUTE!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Tue, 12/09/2014 - 13:55 | 5533239 BaBaBouy
BaBaBouy's picture

Putin Has Invited Him To A Nail-Gun Exposition In Moscow...

Tue, 12/09/2014 - 14:04 | 5533271 CrazyCooter
CrazyCooter's picture

They use snow plows in Russia.

Regards,

Cooter

Tue, 12/09/2014 - 13:54 | 5533240 free_as_in_beer
free_as_in_beer's picture

amaranthed

Tue, 12/09/2014 - 14:03 | 5533273 CrazyCooter
CrazyCooter's picture

You might very well be right!

Regards,

Cooter

Tue, 12/09/2014 - 14:35 | 5533476 Renewable Life
Renewable Life's picture

It wont be ther last one I suspect!  America is entering the final era or phase of Kenyesian lunatic behavior, which will be rife with economic boycotts and protests, etc

The bottom 80% is coming awake to a few of their realities and they will strike back however they can, however misguided and futile, and the one that will resonate the loudest, will be this idea of boycotting the corporations and wall street, starve them out so to speak, I hear it randomily among the "police protest" all ready, and it will get louder as the suffering increases! 

Econimic warfare essentially!

Tue, 12/09/2014 - 17:42 | 5534261 CClarity
CClarity's picture

Cue the insurance companies bankruptsies.  Will they save AIG again?  But of course!!!  Along with Hancock etc...

F- the little people, save the corporations that "vote".  

Tue, 12/09/2014 - 18:08 | 5534391 quasimodo
quasimodo's picture

Former coworker of mine did the same thing. She left a VERY good, stable company after 20+ years, with bennies up the wazoo so she could be the safety person for her neighbors trucking company which currently does nothing else but North Dakota runs, oil related. This guy is known as one of the town clowns, but she wanted a change. Methinks she will get it allright. Last I heard she was already sick of the drives every other week from her home that is five hours south. Seems that some folks are getting the oil fever and just packing up to head north. I think reality bites them in the ass once they see what a harsh climate it can be at times up there.

Tue, 12/09/2014 - 15:21 | 5533694 Wakemaker
Wakemaker's picture

We just had our quarterly safety meeting. Our safety guy also has this building. He was late had a hard time getting away. Said their are at least a dozen AFT agents their and general consensus is arson. The builder is one of his best customers never stopped building even through the down turn.

Tue, 12/09/2014 - 16:32 | 5534018 I Drink Your Mi...
I Drink Your Milkshake's picture

Jewish Lightning?

More like Mexican Relámpago. This is what happens when a contractor hires illegal labor to frame a city block-sized human habitrail and figures he can stiff them, because hey, they're illegal.

Unfortunately there was some collateral damage to some surrounding properties.

Tue, 12/09/2014 - 13:43 | 5533189 williambanzai7
williambanzai7's picture

Is there blood in the streets yet?

Tue, 12/09/2014 - 14:17 | 5533367 Rubicon
Rubicon's picture

Where have you been?

Tue, 12/09/2014 - 14:54 | 5533576 Hippocratic Oaf
Hippocratic Oaf's picture

What's your poison tnight, WB7?

 

Tue, 12/09/2014 - 14:33 | 5533436 El Hosel
El Hosel's picture

... the cop that maced himself has a little bloody booger. "The Street" is still selling the Strength of the US Economic Story  and the FEd is buying it with both Bazookas.

Tue, 12/09/2014 - 13:44 | 5533195 Wahooo
Wahooo's picture

Whiplash a-comin'. Broken muppet necks.

Tue, 12/09/2014 - 14:07 | 5533299 walküre
walküre's picture

Gold under 2000

Gold over 2000

 

 

my personal year end poll

nothing else matters anymore

get ready amigos

Tue, 12/09/2014 - 14:24 | 5533403 noben
noben's picture

Gold under 1400

Gold over 1400

Out of hopium.  Color me sceptical.

Tue, 12/09/2014 - 15:44 | 5533828 El Vaquero
El Vaquero's picture

I'd have to know when the defaults by the frackers are going to start coming, then know how that is going to reverberate throughout the entire financial system to make that call.  The defaults could sparke a wave of deflation, crushing gold further before the Fed steps in and prints more, and this could start well into 2015.  It's too complex to tell how it will play out and it's also too complex to time properly.  The only thing that we can say for sure is "This won't end well."  The question is, will it end in 2015?  2016?  2017?  No matter the date, end well, it will not.

Tue, 12/09/2014 - 16:30 | 5534014 artless
artless's picture

"The defaults could sparke a wave of deflation, crushing gold further before the Fed steps in and prints more, and this could start well into 2015."

Oh please let that be a scenario so that I can buy before it all goes to hell.

Tue, 12/09/2014 - 13:42 | 5533174 Bill of Rights
Bill of Rights's picture

True price discovery is so entertaining. Wait till the sheep wake up one morning and Gold is, well you know.

Tue, 12/09/2014 - 13:56 | 5533241 SheepDog-One
SheepDog-One's picture

Just wait till they wake up one day and find their 401k has been price discovered in half or more.

Tue, 12/09/2014 - 14:06 | 5533289 CrazyCooter
CrazyCooter's picture

I don't even tell myself the retirement lie anymore. My strategy is scaling down so that I can work the hours I want to keep as I get older. I got a lady at my office who is 83 and still goes to her office job 5 days a week. I bet she is happier interacting with all the people and issues of the day than sitting at home with a cat forgetting how to walk and live.

Regards,

Cooter

Tue, 12/09/2014 - 15:02 | 5533612 I am a Man I am...
I am a Man I am Forty's picture

there are options other than working or sitting at home, of course money is required

Tue, 12/09/2014 - 14:08 | 5533295 Publicus
Publicus's picture

Confiscated.

Tue, 12/09/2014 - 18:02 | 5534374 quasimodo
quasimodo's picture

Maybe, but then the smart ones will have sold it before that happens....if it does go parabolic. I don't see them coming after the minnows that bought an ounce here or there. Then again are ones gold teeth even safe these days?

Tue, 12/09/2014 - 13:44 | 5533191 MrTouchdown
MrTouchdown's picture

I wish my screen name was "Mystery Liquidator". Le sigh

Tue, 12/09/2014 - 13:45 | 5533199 Bill of Rights
Tue, 12/09/2014 - 14:12 | 5533326 Bastiat
Bastiat's picture

A good read. Thanks.

Tue, 12/09/2014 - 14:39 | 5533496 SmallerGovNow2
SmallerGovNow2's picture

BOR, GREAT post.  Thanks...

Tue, 12/09/2014 - 13:49 | 5533212 rlouis
rlouis's picture

cudos Zero Hedge, good call.

Tue, 12/09/2014 - 13:49 | 5533217 medium giraffe
medium giraffe's picture

"This Report has been furnished on a confidential basis solely for the information of the person to whom it has been delivered and may not be reproduced, distributed or used for any other purposes."

Erm, Tyler....?

Tue, 12/09/2014 - 14:10 | 5533312 CrazyCooter
CrazyCooter's picture

What happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas.

Except for the stuff we automatically recorded using our high tech surveillance system which is coupled with facial matching software, specializing in adjusting to changes caused by age, for purposes of bribery in the future (when the lobby finally gets it passed).

Regards,

Cooter

Tue, 12/09/2014 - 14:18 | 5533377 Jumbotron
Jumbotron's picture

This is Fight Club.  We don't adhere to Non Disclosure Agreements. 

Except for Fight Club.  Because the first rule of Fight Club is..............

Tue, 12/09/2014 - 14:21 | 5533391 medium giraffe
medium giraffe's picture

Information about Fight Club has been furnished on a confidential basis solely for the information of the person to whom it has been delivered and may not be reproduced, distributed or used for any other purposes?

Tue, 12/09/2014 - 17:49 | 5534306 Jumbotron
Jumbotron's picture

Fight Club......never heard of it.

Black eye ?  Me?   Oh yeah.....slipped while getting out of the shower.  Speaking of shower......you gotta try this soap.  Leaves your skin silky smooth.

Tue, 12/09/2014 - 13:50 | 5533218 spastic_colon
spastic_colon's picture

all this amid the ECB today once again trying to jawbone markets including the reiteration that oil price is SUPPLY and NOT demand driven right now.....LOL are they dumb or just clever? 

Tue, 12/09/2014 - 13:54 | 5533235 besnook
besnook's picture

sounds like he made a big bet on ukraine blowing up. he is the fall guy. someone approved that trade even if he is the one who sold it to them. what did phibro know or think they knew and who followed this guy down the drain.

if anyone has reason to shoot themselves in the head with a nailgun..........

Tue, 12/09/2014 - 15:26 | 5533723 Omen IV
Omen IV's picture

There has been mulitple posts that the Oil and Gas Independents have hedged their production so the bonds will continue to be paid for some time.

but who were on the other side of the trade that has the exposure for say $40/ Bbl.(100-60)  ? would think Phibro had some of this risk but what other banks ?

also the Saudi's knew what they would do at the margin before everyone else did - so they probably massively hedged some time ago as Aramco as probably  did the insiders in the kingdom

so who has this off balance sheet risk?

 

 

Tue, 12/09/2014 - 13:55 | 5533242 spastic_colon
spastic_colon's picture

“At one point, Phibro traders were the rulers of the world,” says Carl Larry, a former trader who publishes a newsletter on oil markets. “The best always learn how to adapt. Maybe it’s taking him longer to do that now. Or maybe his time has come.”

 

yes...adapt to the new normal centrally controlled pricing mechanism, or become a "former trader" and write a newsletter and bash those that had the balls to ride the horse until it bucked em'

Tue, 12/09/2014 - 14:29 | 5533433 noben
noben's picture

It almost sounds like you're saying "Those who can, do.  Those who can't, teach or write newsletters".

Notice that in either case, doing or newsletters, they're always using OPM for their lifestyle.

Tue, 12/09/2014 - 14:37 | 5533490 aVileRat
aVileRat's picture

Sadly, nobody could have predicted a Russian invasion, nor the subsequent moves at 1H13. I suspect he doubled down around 76 and blew up accordingly.

Nice guy, he will be replaced & missed.

 

Tue, 12/09/2014 - 15:32 | 5533753 geno-econ
geno-econ's picture

Correction: Nobody predicted Pussia would retake Crimea during Winter Olympics in Sochi while Ukraine underwent orchestrated regime chenge in Kiev.  Now  Ukraine  needs a new line of credit based on gold collateral already siezed.  Putin could use a good oil trader, but not from Philbro 

Tue, 12/09/2014 - 13:59 | 5533251 Glass Seagull
Glass Seagull's picture

 

 

Supply and commodity price moves.

I've read about this relationship a time or two.

Tue, 12/09/2014 - 13:58 | 5533252 venturen
venturen's picture

There must be massive losses around town! 

GOOD RIDDANCE. As the mega banks are dislodged from the commodity space...amazing what happens. 

Tue, 12/09/2014 - 14:04 | 5533275 Meme Iamfurst
Meme Iamfurst's picture

order becomes chaos...it is a natural law of physics, indifferent to the will of humans.

Tue, 12/09/2014 - 14:07 | 5533276 falak pema
falak pema's picture

Annie Hall lol  ! 

Woody Allen was just as neurotic in that movie! 

Tue, 12/09/2014 - 14:16 | 5533351 Tinky
Tinky's picture

My favorite line (and one of my all-time Woody favorites) was when they were in Keaton's (Hall's) VW Beetle, the two are passionately discussing something, she abruptly drives into a NYC parking space on an angle, Allen opens the passenger door part-way, peers out, and says "That's OK, we can walk to the curb from here.".

In fact, I have used it myself many times over the years!

Thu, 12/11/2014 - 23:02 | 5542744 Nobody For President
Nobody For President's picture

My favorite Woody line is "Sex isn't dirty, ...unless you do it right." 

Tue, 12/09/2014 - 14:15 | 5533352 Tinky
Tinky's picture

DP, sorry.

Tue, 12/09/2014 - 14:08 | 5533296 KingTut
KingTut's picture

There is so much nonsense being spewed about shale.  Do you actually think that oil men go out everyday and loose money? Of course not.

These guys know exactly what they are doing, and they are pumping oil and gas like never before.  Will it run out? Of course it will run out!  But not today.

The big picture is there are about 2 Trillion barrels of recoverable oil on the planet.  We have drilled, pumped and burned half of that.  The other half is going to be difficult and expensive.  Gas is on a similar trajectory, only a couple of decades behind oil.

Shale has been phenoomenally successful.  And as I siad, all the easy oil is gone or in ful production.  There are no more Ghawars, massive deposits of light sweet crude, at shallow depth in rock that looks like a kitchen sponge.  We are going to have to work for every new barrel, and that's what shale is: the future of the oil business.  Is it cheap? No.   

So at some point oil becomes so expensive, that other forms of energy will become viable.  First gas, and as hat depletes then synthetic fuel from all kinds of sources: solar wind etc.  If you make fuel instead of electricity, your storage problem is solved, and you gain total flexibility in where how and for what the energy is delivered.  Shale is just a step on that long path.

Tue, 12/09/2014 - 14:13 | 5533336 CrazyCooter
CrazyCooter's picture

If you genuinely look out a long timeline, Thorium MSRs are the only solution and that buys the current population of the planet a thousand years or so of power.

I will see global oil production drop by 50% from current levels before I die of old age. But that mess is down the road - this financialization mess is front and center.

Regards,

Cooter

Tue, 12/09/2014 - 14:43 | 5533513 medium giraffe
medium giraffe's picture

I would love to see LFTRs become available, but the problem, as per usual, is that there's no money in the fuel or reactors - certainly not oil type money. 

Tue, 12/09/2014 - 14:26 | 5533417 SmallerGovNow2
SmallerGovNow2's picture

Please provide a link or briefly describe the concept of using solar and wind to create "synthetic fuel".  Matter is neither created nor destroyed.  I call bullshit...

Tue, 12/09/2014 - 14:45 | 5533523 stacking12321
stacking12321's picture

it's a simple concept.

example, pulling hydrogen out of water as a fuel source, hydrogen is the H in H2O

it takes energy to separate it out, and once you have hydrogen you can run cars, etc, on it.

Tue, 12/09/2014 - 15:23 | 5533703 HellFish
HellFish's picture

Please explain a simple way to store a useable amount of H2.

Tue, 12/09/2014 - 14:11 | 5533320 buzzsaw99
buzzsaw99's picture

assholes like hall make money off other people's production. effing middle man parasite.

Tue, 12/09/2014 - 14:27 | 5533389 TruthInSunshine
TruthInSunshine's picture

"Commoditization" is just a fancy term to denote that the real producers, farmers, manufacturers, AND end consumers (neat trick) will be forever cheated by a parasitic, blood sucking, do-nothing financial intermediary class such as Wall Street.

http://corporate.findlaw.com/finance/congress-passes-financial-services-...

Tue, 12/09/2014 - 14:17 | 5533359 Bastiat
Bastiat's picture

The kind of big moves we have seen in huge markets like energy and currencies have got to take some players down.  I doubt we've heard the last of it--maybe not much more than the first.

Tue, 12/09/2014 - 14:21 | 5533382 buzzsaw99
buzzsaw99's picture

how is one supposed to plan ahead when maggots like hall purposely jack with prices? he isn't a producer, he isn't a consumer, he is just a scumbag who never gets his hands dirty.

Tue, 12/09/2014 - 15:20 | 5533690 Thisson
Thisson's picture

Speculators like hall are essential for market stability.  As long as they don't get bailed out or subsidized by others, and have to eat their losses when they fail, nobody should have a problem with it.

Tue, 12/09/2014 - 15:37 | 5533788 buzzsaw99
buzzsaw99's picture

what business does that gambler have with "the oil market"? He is a fucking scumbag gambler and skimmer middleman who destabilizes prices for profit. when he wins he wins, when he loses, everybody loses.

Wed, 12/10/2014 - 01:46 | 5535540 stacking12321
stacking12321's picture

what business does he have?

he puts his money in it, that's what!

and what business do you have, telling him what his business is?

thisson's comment above is absolutely right - if he's speculating on an outcome with his own money, and isn't going to get bailed out, that's his right.

who are you to tell him, or to tell anyone, that they don't have the right to make a contract with the person on the other end of that deal, on whether oil prices go up or down?

a private contract between two parties is between those two parties, aka, none of your damn business!

 

Tue, 12/09/2014 - 14:24 | 5533409 cobra1650
cobra1650's picture

That is one nasty looking bald fuck....reminds me of the new NBA commissioner

Tue, 12/09/2014 - 14:36 | 5533479 Hamm Jamm
Hamm Jamm's picture

just another OILY BASTARD !

Tue, 12/09/2014 - 14:44 | 5533514 noben
noben's picture

Not to stir the cultural pot, but to add perspective on human nature... I admit that I'm surprised that it's and ANGLO who is the shady character this time, and not some Jewish or Zionist guy who is to blame.

So, in the spirit of equal opportunity... "Fucking Anglos, ruining the planet.  Colonizing everything. Damn parasites and imperialists!  Gas 'em!  Nuke 'em!"

Did I go overboard with hyperbole and diatribe?  Sorry.  Too much of Monty Python, I guess.

Tue, 12/09/2014 - 14:44 | 5533515 Inthemix96
Inthemix96's picture

Jesus fucking christ sits weeping.  And the fucking Dog laughs on.

Listen, I've said it before so will say again, everything you've ever held dear is a lie,

The whole fucking lot.  Your government is a fabrication based on lies and filth, your monetary system is a lie based on fabrication and slight of hand, to rob you fucking sideways till tuesday of all you ever owned.  Your justice system is just that, Just-Us, not fucking you, based on lies and more made up fucking shit of 'Maritime Law'.  The education system?  Fuck me, this gets tedious, what the fuck do you think then?  More bastard lies and fabrication for 100,000 grand a fucking pop for fuck all, and no job?  The health system then?  need I say fuck all else then?  Wake the fuck up.

Last time folks, withdraw your implicit and complied concent.  You are being reamed alive.  Your entire life, as was mine was a bastard lie based on fabrication and deceipt, so now you know withdraw yourself from the whole fucking lot.  Do whatever you have to, but stop giving these child molesting bastards the implied and complied concent of your mother fucking names.  Withdraw and fucking disapear, its not fucking hard.

'Laws of Physics' was never wrong my friends,

Roll the mother fucking guillotines, and you will never see a cunt like this cunt who trades mystery oil ever again.

Take back what fucking belongs to us all folks.  There is No, Other, Way.

;-)

Cunts, utter fucking nation wrecking paedophile cunts.

Tue, 12/09/2014 - 15:26 | 5533715 Thisson
Thisson's picture

While the rest of your comment is spot-on, SPECULATION is an important part of capitalism. Don't throw the baby out with the bath-water.

Tue, 12/09/2014 - 15:37 | 5533792 Inthemix96
Inthemix96's picture

Fair play Thisson,

I speculate you dabble in wheat fututes then?  Stuff that shouldnt be reduced to folk gambling on seeing as they might need such to live?  You know to eat?

How about wall street gambling on your house burning down or making payment on said house?  Stuff like that, documented fact mate.

On the ruination of their fellow man?  Stuff like that, and dont take Mixys word for it, look it up, but as you say lets not throw the bath water out with the baby eh?

Some folk, fucked off some folk eh?

;-)

Wed, 12/10/2014 - 02:03 | 5535557 stacking12321
stacking12321's picture

i agree with thisson - your rant was a good one and spot on, especially the part about the government and the monetary systems being a lie. but there's no good reason for bashing people who trade oil or otherwise speculate on commodites.

the freedom to bet one way or the other is how price discovery occurs in the marketplace (or what remains of it).

as long as no force or fraud occurs, it is their right to speculate, and anyone tries to infringe on that right should properly be regarded as an unjust aggressor.

if alice wants to sell bob a contract to deliver 100 barrels of oil on jan 1, 2016, at $100/barrel, and bob wants to buy that contract, how is that any of your business? what right do you have to interfere in someone else's agreement?

 

Tue, 12/09/2014 - 14:47 | 5533536 Tinky
Tinky's picture

Andrew Hall? Learned his trade from his dad, Monty.

Tue, 12/09/2014 - 14:50 | 5533549 Downtoolong
Downtoolong's picture

That’s what he gets for believing in Goldman’s crude price forecasts.

And so, another world renowned commodities trader finally blows up his book and loses billions for his clients after pocketing hundreds of millions for himself. It’s the story that keeps coming back again and again in the financial world.  I guess it always will as long as there are greater fools who actually believe there are gurus better able to predict market moves than they can.

Anyone need a well-used dart board?

Tue, 12/09/2014 - 15:24 | 5533711 SDRII
SDRII's picture

Someone predicted the latest carnage or facilitiate it:

Mexico’s oil hedging deal exposed: Put options locking in the sale of 5m barrels of crude for at least $80 per barrel were this week publicly reported on a swap data repository, a type of information warehouse. The trade was labelled with the prefix Maya, the name of Mexico’s main crude stream. 

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/4d8957a0-4015-11e4-a343-00144feabdc0.html...

Tue, 12/09/2014 - 15:44 | 5533818 buzzsaw99
buzzsaw99's picture

you see? now that was a legitimate trade by a producer. mexico, producer, hall, scumbag who neither supplies nor uses the stuff.

Tue, 12/09/2014 - 15:31 | 5533747 Comte d'herblay
Comte d'herblay's picture

His clients are likely 1) only losing pocket change or 2) will have any losses made up by the perpetraitors or Maiden Lane like reimbursements.

 

Somehow it seems that the american human bean is going to absorb those losses one wayon another.

Tue, 12/09/2014 - 14:56 | 5533582 TalkToLind
TalkToLind's picture

I wonder if there's any oil left in 'Murica's strategic petroleum reserve?  When the left hand moves, keep your eye on what the right hand does.

Tue, 12/09/2014 - 14:58 | 5533596 Q-Q-Q
Q-Q-Q's picture

Commodities, markets can be whatever they want them to be regardless of fundamentals.......until suddenly they can't be 'managed' anymore.

There is a techtonic power shift going on and as much as they dismiss gold being an integral part of that it clearly is.

Tue, 12/09/2014 - 15:05 | 5533627 Banker Buster
Banker Buster's picture

Damn, I was betting on Hall to BTFD in oil with his OPM.  Eject goose eject, there's no one under this!!!  

You would have to have balls of steel to fade this right now on the larger time frames or OPM.

Tue, 12/09/2014 - 15:09 | 5533646 GFORCE
GFORCE's picture

It's unfortunate that the media makes gods out of people like Hall and Paulson when one massive bet goes right. This idea of a trading god that is more powerful than the market should be put to bed.

http://investfts.blogspot.co.uk/

 

Tue, 12/09/2014 - 15:33 | 5533763 insanelysane
insanelysane's picture

Tylers,

A new way to go instead of nail gun.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2866973/Banker-dies-impaled-rail...

 

Tue, 12/09/2014 - 16:08 | 5533933 Herd Redirectio...
Herd Redirection Committee's picture

"Dies"

"Fell"

"Was killed by defenestration"

Which of the above does NOT appear in the article?  You'll have to read it to find out!

Tue, 12/09/2014 - 16:53 | 5534090 I Drink Your Mi...
I Drink Your Milkshake's picture

I can't help but notice the timing of Mr. Hall's bonus denial and the downward trajectory of his fund.

This guy's gotta be working the short side of things. Just look at the size of his art collection!  http://www.hallartfoundation.org/collection

Guy's got lousy taste in art if you ask me. Not a Francis Bacon in the whole lot!

Tue, 12/09/2014 - 18:55 | 5534525 pndr4495
pndr4495's picture

I sure hope New Jersey was able to remove its taxpayer's 100 million dollars from Mr. Hall's fund in time. I rather suspect that New Jersey was NOT alone in handing over money in a somewhat desperate move to improve the state's probability of being able to pay public employee pensioners their pensions. 

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